UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2016, 03:49:31 PM

Title: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2016, 03:49:31 PM
How can voters make informed decisions based on misleading information?  It seems to me there was a lot of misleading info from both camps (and the reason I didn't bother voting).  Perhaps the most highlighted example was the claim that if the UK exited the EU £350 million a week could be spent on the NHS.

Following the result/Brexit it seems the UK wants to negotiate access to the 'single market' but with restrictions placed on the 'free movement of people'.  It seems as far as the EU is concerned one is contingent on the other.  As I understand it many people voted leave as they are unhappy about the levels of immigration into the UK.

I'm struggling to think of any other area of life where it would be possible for groups of individuals to provide misleading information in order to persuade others to take a course of action without any consequences.

The following is interesting and explains why political advertising falls outside the Advertising Standards Authority:

https://www.asa.org.uk/News-resources/Media-Centre/2014/Political-advertising.aspx#.V3pz4TWGzIU

It appears freedom of speech takes precedence when it comes to political advertising and yet everyone else has to play by the rules or risk consequences:

https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Non-compliant-online-advertisers.aspx

83
   
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2016, 05:07:46 PM
I was just reading the Government leaflet about the Referendum. It says;

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

That sounds clear enough.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2016, 05:14:30 PM
I was just reading the Government leaflet about the Referendum. It says;

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

That sounds clear enough.

#do you have a link to that...it seems odd to make such a promise
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 04, 2016, 05:19:00 PM
How can voters make informed decisions based on misleading information?  It seems to me there was a lot of misleading info from both camps (and the reason I didn't bother voting).  Perhaps the most highlighted example was the claim that if the UK exited the EU £350 million a week could be spent on the NHS.

...
 
Is this bit any different to any election campaign?  Perhaps I'm just cynical?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2016, 05:22:16 PM
Is this bit any different to any election campaign?  Perhaps I'm just cynical?

it is exactly the same as any election campaign...as it isn't legally binding i can't see how it could be challenged legally
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 04, 2016, 05:24:11 PM
I was just reading the Government leaflet about the Referendum. It says;

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

That sounds clear enough.

it sounds very clear apart from the fact that I presume this was referring to Camerons govt and that govt has gone....very misleading
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on July 04, 2016, 06:17:28 PM
Is this bit any different to any election campaign?  Perhaps I'm just cynical?

No you're not being cynical.  It happens all the time during general election campaigns.  The only difference I see is that in general elections if the parties deviate too far off their manifestos we can vote them out in 5 years time.  The EU referendum is forever!
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 04, 2016, 08:17:32 PM
it sounds very clear apart from the fact that I presume this was referring to Camerons govt and that govt has gone....very misleading

It depends how you see it. If Cameron was HM Government then he broke that promise by resigning. He should at least begin the process before he goes. If the Cabinet is HM Government they have the responsibility to do as the leaflet said.

The Government leaflet was also misleading because of what it didn't say. It said 44% of our exports go to the EU. It didn't say that we buy more than we sell, though.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: mercury on July 05, 2016, 02:36:03 AM
It depends how you see it. If Cameron was HM Government then he broke that promise by resigning. He should at least begin the process before he goes. If the Cabinet is HM Government they have the responsibility to do as the leaflet said.

The Government leaflet was also misleading because of what it didn't say. It said 44% of our exports go to the EU. It didn't say that we buy more than we sell, though.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk


Penultimate bolded top paragraph

Crystal clear that THIS govt will go ahead with what electorate decide, not govt with Cameron as leader or other leader, but THIS govt, ie the incumbent Tory govt

Indeed a broken promise to cover Camerons arse and a fair few others and pass the buck to anyone AT ALL

Leadstom smiles alot and seems positive and genuine, May doesnt have that, interesting times ahead
May a remainer seems to want to gamble with eu nationals in Britains futures, Leadsgom an exiter wants to guarantee them security

Xmas pantomine come early




Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2016, 11:14:05 AM
I was just reading the Government leaflet about the Referendum. It says;

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

That sounds clear enough.

There's not much point in having a referendum if the government doesn't then implement whatever the subject was.

On the other hand, is it "advisory" only or legally binding?



Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 05, 2016, 11:32:44 PM
There's not much point in having a referendum if the government doesn't then implement whatever the subject was.

On the other hand, is it "advisory" only or legally binding?

I agree Carana, refusing to implement Brexit after the majority voted for it would cause a huge loss in credibility for any government and spell disaster for any such referendums in the future.

Cameron caused this mess by reneging on his promise to remain as leader regardless of the outcome.  What a chump he is!
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: mercury on July 05, 2016, 11:41:42 PM
I agree Carana, refusing to implement Brexit after the majority voted for it would cause a huge loss in credibility for any government and spell disaster for any such referendums in the future.

Cameron caused this mess by reneging on his promise to remain as leader regardless of the outcome.  What a chump he is!
Crediblity of a tosser or referendum can never ever be as important as stability of a country and all  its peoples, what cameron did was destablise his country , then b....r off,in ways no one can predict how will turn out,  shame on him
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 05, 2016, 11:59:52 PM
Crediblity of a tosser or referendum can never ever be as important as stability of a country and all  its peoples, what cameron did was destablise his country , then b....r off,in ways no one can predict how will turn out,  shame on him

Most people involved in this chaos have b....red off.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2016, 07:54:26 PM
With the proviso that it's virtually impossible to work out who the hell knows what they're talking about:


Dominic Grieve, a Conservative MP who was the Government’s chief legal advisor until 2014, said the result of the first referendum had to be “treated with respect” but that it was not necessarily set in stone.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-grieve-brexit-second-eu-referendum-legal-former-attorney-general-says-7119491.html
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: blonk on July 07, 2016, 10:00:24 PM
I was just reading the Government leaflet about the Referendum. It says;

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

That sounds clear enough.
The best contribution on the thread to date.

Also, look up any online dictionary definition of the word 'referendum'.

They all basically say that it means: "A matter referred to the people for decision". 
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2016, 10:10:56 PM
The best contribution on the thread to date.

Also, look up any online dictionary definition of the word 'referendum'.

They all basically say that it means: "A matter referred to the people for decision".


...but it is not legally binding.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: mercury on July 07, 2016, 11:53:10 PM
The best contribution on the thread to date.

Also, look up any online dictionary definition of the word 'referendum'.

They all basically say that it means: "A matter referred to the people for decision".

Well quite, just as in a general election, they make a decision/cast a vote, what the govt do thereafter is their busness and the public are not consulted again for years
There really is nothing set in stone whch enforces the govt to take action after a referendum result, thats as I understand it anyway
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 09, 2016, 08:36:37 AM
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

' Government responded

The European Union Referendum Act received Royal Assent in December 2015, receiving overwhelming support from Parliament. The Act did not set a threshold for the result or for minimum turnout.

Read the response in full
The EU Referendum Act received Royal Assent in December 2015. The Act was scrutinised and debated in Parliament during its passage and agreed by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The Act set out the terms under which the referendum would take place, including provisions for setting the date, franchise and the question that would appear on the ballot paper. The Act did not set a threshold for the result or for minimum turnout.

As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement to the House of Commons on 27 June, the referendum was one of the biggest democratic exercises in British history with over 33 million people having their say. The Prime Minister and Government have been clear that this was a once in a generation vote and, as the Prime Minister has said, the decision must be respected. We must now prepare for the process to exit the EU and the Government is committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people in the negotiations.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office '

P.S. The petition is still active.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: blonk on July 09, 2016, 09:20:34 AM
...The only difference I see is that in general elections if the parties deviate too far off their manifestos we can vote them out in 5 years time.  The EU referendum is forever!
YES. And that's exactly what David Cameron and his fellow Remainers emphasised ad nauseam during the campaign.

Here, for example, David Cameron was quoted in the Guardian, 23 February, at the start of the EU referendum campaign, saying:

QUOTE:   "I would argue this is a much bigger decision because at election times you can vote in a team of people and if you’ve got fed up with them after five years you can vote them out. This is a decision that lasts for life. We make this decision and it is probably going to be the only time in our generation when we make this decision".


We all knew this when we voted.

Time and time again we were told in graphic terms that disaster would follow Brexit.

So much so that when Cameron was questioned on ITV 2 weeks before the vote,, the interviewer asked him:

"So, which comes first, World War III, or the world-wide recession triggered by Brexit?"

The studio audience roared with laughter because, by then, most people had picked up the fact that all these 'gloom and doom' predictions were one long dirty trick to get us to vote Remain. In the final week, George Osborne arguably stooped lower than anyone else by frightening British pensioners with the explicit threat: "Vote Leave, and I'll cut your pension". There were media reports of distraught pensioners in tears.

Despite the Remainers' apocalyptic and bullying predictions, we collectively held our nerve and 17.41 million of us voted 'Leave'.

That was a legal decision of the British people. The government didn't say: "Vote and we'll think about how you've voted, it will guide us". They said: "This is your DECISION".

Anyone who even tries to overturn it is not a true democrat, they have no respect for the people's verdict.

As for the gloom and doom predictions, just four weeks ago today the stock market (FTSE100 index) was at 5,900. Today it is 12 percent higher at 6,600.

So much for the Remainers' doom and gloom!       
 
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 09, 2016, 09:23:49 AM
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

' Government responded

 The Prime Minister and Government have been clear that this was a once in a generation vote and, as the Prime Minister has said, the decision must be respected. We must now prepare for the process to exit the EU and the Government is committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people in the negotiations.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office '

P.S. The petition is still active.

It appears the government has accepted the answer to the question it asked, as it should.

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 09, 2016, 09:25:45 AM
YES. And that's exactly what David Cameron and his fellow Remainers emphasised ad nauseam during the campaign.

Here, for example, David Cameron was quoted in the Guardian, 23 February, at the start of the EU referendum campaign, saying:

QUOTE:   "I would argue this is a much bigger decision because at election times you can vote in a team of people and if you’ve got fed up with them after five years you can vote them out. This is a decision that lasts for life. We make this decision and it is probably going to be the only time in our generation when we make this decision".


We all knew this when we voted.

Time and time again we were told in graphic terms that disaster would follow Brexit.

So much so that when Cameron was questioned on ITV 2 weeks before the vote,, the interviewer asked him:

"So, which comes first, World War III, or the world-wide recession triggered by Brexit?"

The studio audience roared with laughter because, by then, most people had picked up the fact that all these 'gloom and doom' predictions were one long dirty trick to get us to vote Remain. In the final week, George Osborne arguably stooped lower than anyone else by frightening British pensioners with the explicit threat: "Vote Leave, and I'll cut your pension". There were media reports of distraught pensioners in tears.

Despite the Remainers' apocalyptic and bullying predictions, we collectively held our nerve and 17.41 million of us voted 'Leave'.

That was a legal decision of the British people. The government didn't say: "Vote and we'll think about how you've voted, it will guide us". They said: "This is your DECISION".

Anyone who even tries to overturn it is not a true democrat, they have no respect for the people's verdict.

As for the gloom and doom predictions, just four weeks ago today the stock market (FTSE100 index) was at 5,900. Today it is 12 percent higher at 6,600.

So much for the Remainers' doom and gloom!       
 

It may have escaped your attention, but we haven't left the EU yet.

Now when the 'negotiations' start..........
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 09, 2016, 09:28:28 AM
It appears the government has accepted the answer to the question it asked, as it should.

The process hasn't even started yet.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 09, 2016, 09:35:42 AM
It may have escaped your attention, but we haven't left the EU yet.

Now when the 'negotiations' start..........

We will leave. That is what people voted for. If the EU becomes a United States of Europe eventually Britain will not become one of those states. If people disagree with the rems negotiated they can vote out the negotiators at the next general election. They are going to be in control of the decision-makers, not the other way round.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 09, 2016, 09:38:33 AM
This should prove interesting.

http://jackofkent.com/2016/07/the-two-article-50-legal-claims-the-current-details/
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 09, 2016, 10:46:01 AM
This should prove interesting.

http://jackofkent.com/2016/07/the-two-article-50-legal-claims-the-current-details/

As MPs represent the people they must ratify the people's decision if we live in a democracy. If they don't then the UK is not democratic. The people will then need to decide if they want democracy or not. It's not something you can support when it suits you and oppose when it doesn't.

And on the other hand;

Martin Howe QC, chair of pro-Brexit group Lawyers for Britain, called the proposed action “devoid of all legal merit”. “As a matter of political authority, the decision of the British people not merely permits but mandates the giving of notice, without the need for any vote by parliament,” Howe said.
http://www.cityam.com/244669/eurosceptic-mps-lambast-law-firm-article-legal-brexit-mishcon-act-parliament
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 09, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
As MPs represent the people they must ratify the people's decision if we live in a democracy. If they don't then the UK is not democratic. The people will then need to decide if they want democracy or not. It's not something you can support when it suits you and oppose when it doesn't.

And on the other hand;

Martin Howe QC, chair of pro-Brexit group Lawyers for Britain, called the proposed action “devoid of all legal merit”. “As a matter of political authority, the decision of the British people not merely permits but mandates the giving of notice, without the need for any vote by parliament,” Howe said.
http://www.cityam.com/244669/eurosceptic-mps-lambast-law-firm-article-legal-brexit-mishcon-act-parliament

Ireland has lots of referendums... if they vote in anyway against the EU the goal posts get moved to correct this,  hahahaha. However, this is very serious and I doubt very much if any party would even try to ignore the majority who voted to leave.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 09, 2016, 05:59:41 PM
Ireland has lots of referendums... if they vote in anyway against the EU the goal posts get moved to correct this,  hahahaha. However, this is very serious and I doubt very much if any party would even try to ignore the majority who voted to leave.

I don't quite see that happening, either, unless it's taken out of the hands of the headless chickens due to protracted legal wrangles: The "not me, guv" (at least temporary) solution, if only to buy time while the UK's best neurosurgeons attempt spinal nerve reconstruction.

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 10, 2016, 01:43:22 PM
The process hasn't even started yet.

We may not have formally invoked Article 50 but it has started.  Did you not notice that our PM is not invited to the EU club any more?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 10, 2016, 01:45:38 PM
We may not have formally invoked Article 50 but it has started.  Did you not notice that our PM is not invited to the EU club any more?

It only starts when invoked.

It is also now the subject of a court case, in case you haven't noticed.

Also, I do pay attention to the news, and not meaningless rhetoric.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 11, 2016, 02:12:58 PM
The New Statesmen newspaper....

 
11 July 2016
After Brexit, should the Eurozone pursue full political union?
Is full political union of the eurozone the only way to stop the disintegration of Europe after Brexit?

By Brendan Simms

The chaotic scenes in the Conservative and Labour Parties, widespread expressions of “Bregret”, confusion about what the future relationship between the European Union and United Kingdom will or should be, discussion of a second EU referendum or a “Brexit election” – all give the impression that the vote was somehow an accident. It is true there was a strong element of contingency to the outcome, which some have called “an establishment cock-up”. When in January 2013 he needlessly promised the referendum, David Cameron did not foresee that Boris Johnson would oppose him or that he would lose it. He could not have foreseen that a Labour leader would fail to mobilise the left-wing vote, and fail probably intentionally. The result was also determined by the unexpectedly brutal nature of the campaign, with wild claims on both sides, though those of some Leavers were by far the most egregious.
It is time, however, for those who wanted the UK to remain in the EU at least for now, of whom I was one, to accept reality. Britain did not decide to leave the EU in a fit of pique or absence of mind. Its departure reflects the deeper pattern of British history in Europe over the past few hundred years. It would certainly have left the EU at a later date, if the EU had not collapsed first.
The relationship between Britain and Europe can be summed up in two simple geopolitical propositions. First, that the EU was designed to deal with the German problem and the European Question, or, if one prefers, the German Question and the European problem, for they are two sides of the same coin. Second, the EU was not designed to deal with the British problem. Nobody claimed after 1945 that the UK had been such a danger to European peace that it required a supranational structure to embed and contain it. Nor did anyone argue that the UK, unlike most of the rest of continental Europe, had been so weak in the face of a threat from others that it needed the protection of a supranational body.
Britain and mainland Europe have thus been on quite separate paths for a long time. The central geopolitical fact on the continent was German power or potential power: demographic, economic and military. In the period before German unification this led to a system of conditional sovereignty in central Europe, designed to prevent another state – usually France – from using its resources to achieve hegemony, and to stop the Germans from developing such ambitions for themselves. It was based on the diffusion, not concentration of power. Things changed after German unification in 1871, which eventually unbalanced the European and global system. With great difficulty, Germany was subdued and a system of conditional sovereignty was reimposed on central Europe, the difference being that this time it was to be extended to the whole western half of the continent, which was also in mortal peril from Soviet communism.
The European integration project was thus a project of “dual containment”, designed to “embed” Germany and deter ¬Stalin. It was also a strategy of “dual mobilisation”, in that it sought to draw on the energies of not only the western Europeans but also the Germans to fight communism, and certainly to stop fighting each other. This supranational project was strongly supported by the Americans and by parts of the British establishment, including Winston Churchill. The vision of a complete political union has not been realised, but the European Union has embarked on important supranational projects such as the euro, the Schengen travel area and common foreign and security policies.
In Britain, things developed very differently. Europe was at all times critically important. The question of England’s relationship to the continent dominated policy and politics for hundreds of years, from France in the 15th century through to the Westminster crisis in both of Britain’s leading parties today, which is primarily the product of disagreements over Europe. The main strategic and ideological threats have come from Europe.
In the 16th and 17th centuries there was the threat to Protest[ censored word]m and parliamentary liberties from Philip II and Louis XIV’s absolutism and from Counter-Reformation Catholicism. In the 19th century, there was the challenge of Napoleon, followed by the confrontation between British liberalism and tsarist autocracy. In the 20th century, Britain saw off Germany in the First World War, resisted Nazism in the Second World War, and made a substantial contribution to Western measures to deter the Soviet Union during the Cold War.
***
Like many European states, Britain responded to these challenges by pursuing a policy of maintaining the “balance of power” across the continent, through alliances and payment of subsidies, to ensure that no single actor would be able to threaten Europe’s security. In constitutional terms, however, the British response to the European problem was very different. Faced with the danger from Louis XIV during the War of the Spanish Succession, in which the long-standing enmity between England and Scotland threatened to undermine the war effort against a common foe, the two countries entered into a complete political union in 1707. The state debts were merged, there would henceforth be only one army and foreign policy, and the new polity would be anchored in a common parliamentary representation at Westminster. This link between debt, defence and what then passed for democracy proved to be so powerful that it served as the basis for the American union in the late 18th century.
On the continent, in short, Europe was the problem and the European Union was the solution. In Britain, Europe was also the problem, but the United Kingdom was the solution. For this reason, the British have never seen the need to sacrifice their sov¬ereignty in a supranational project. They have therefore co-operated with Europe on a largely intergovernmental, and not a supranational, basis.
That said, the modern European order – understood as the totality of economic, political and military relationships – that developed after 1945 was primarily an ¬Anglo-American order. It was built on the Allied victory during the Second World War, which enabled the re-establishment of democracy on the continent. It depended wholly on the protective carapace provided by Nato, in which the UK was the second most important actor after the US, and by far the most powerful European one.
Since 1973, the United Kingdom has been part of the European integration project, and even though the relationship has often been turbulent, the British contribution there has been substantial. London was the principal sponsor of the single market and eastward enlargement of the EU.
To be sure, the United Kingdom stayed aloof from the crucial European projects: the euro, Schengen and any planned European army. It did so on two very cogent grounds. First, because involvement would have been incompatible with the independence of the UK, hard won over history with blood and treasure. Here, the conditional sovereignty of continental Europe clashed with the absolute sovereignty of the Westminster parliament.
Second, because the British government believed quite rightly that these federal projects required a political union. It was not, however, opposed to such an arrangement on the continent. It is true that London has long tried to keep the political bonds to Europe loose enough to enable continued UK membership without losing her sovereignty. But more recently, in an abandonment of the long-held principle of the balance of power, Chancellor Osborne, recognising the need to keep the eurozone stable, constantly pressed for closer fiscal and political integration across that area.
This gives the lie to the idea that Britain has been blocking progress in Europe. This is a firmly entrenched view in Brussels, expressed vehemently by the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker. It was also expressed hilariously in the popular 1980s television series Yes Minister when Sir Humphrey told the minister, James Hacker, that Britain had only joined the European Economic Community to make a “pig’s breakfast of it from the inside”. The sad truth is that the EU does not need British help to do this. The continental Europeans have shown in the euro crisis, which has nothing to do with London, and in many other disasters, that they are quite capable of making a pig’s breakfast of it for themselves, unaided.
The problem, in other words, is not the United Kingdom, but the long-term weakness of continental Europe, which Brexit has brought home in the most painful way, and aggravated. Without the euro and migration crises, there would never have been a majority for Leave a fortnight ago, though there would probably have been a separation further down the line. The peoples of Europe sense this and so do the elites. They all know that whereas Grexit would be a judgement on Greece, Brexit was a judgement on the EU.
***
Unfortunately, the hope that the shock of Brexit will provoke profound reform in the European Union is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of national governments represented in the European Council and among Brussels elites. They need help but, like alcoholics, they also need to realise the utter wretchedness of their condition before they ask for it. Continental Europe, unfortunately, has much further to fall before it can rise again. At the moment, it is still in denial.
That should not stop Washington and London from trying to persuade the European Union, or at least the eurozone, to achieve a full political union on the model of Anglo-America. This could be an asymmetric union of “core Europe”, in which Germany took on the role played by England in the United Kingdom. Alternatively, it could be a more symmetric, larger union of the entire eurozone along American lines. Only by linking debt, defence and democracy as pioneered in the United States will Europe be able to stabilise the currency, deter Russia and address the democratic deficit against which electorates are rebelling. The alternative is either continued chaos, or a return to the nation state and the untethering of Germany from the continental order.
Whatever the solution in mainland Europe, the future attitude of the UK to the EU will determine the survival of this union, after Brexit even more than before it.
In this context, we urgently need to know the Brexit mainstream’s attitude to the ¬European project. Farage, who resigned on 4 July as the leader of the UK Independence Party, may be containable but the full force of a new Brexit government will be a very different proposition. Theresa May hasn’t said much yet but, as a soft Remainer, she is unlikely to seek confrontation with the EU. In recent days, the once sulphurous Boris Johnson has been more conciliatory, even saying that the EU “was a noble idea for its time”, but he is no longer a candidate for the Tory leadership. Since the referendum result, Michael Gove has spoken of his hope that “we can build a new, stronger and more positive relationship with our European neighbours, based on free trade and friendly co-operation”. He has also, however, expressed a desire that Brexit should spark a “democratic liberation” of the continent. Gove now needs to explain what that means. If he has a Farage-style return to the national states and currencies in mind, the EU will resist him tooth and nail, and rightly so, as the European project is still the continent’s last, best hope on Earth. If, however, he means the establishment of a full parliamentary union of the eurozone to provide democratic legitimation for its decisions, then he is pointing the way out of the crisis. Of all people in British politics, Gove, a Scot who believes passionately in the UK, is perhaps best placed to make the argument for a multinational political union of the continent (without Britain). Yet he is unlikely to get the chance to do so, trailing as he is behind May and Andrea Leadsom, a hard Brexiteer, in the leadership contest.
***
Against this background, the big geopolitical question will be whether the UK and the EU, former partners hopeful of separating amicably, eventually become enemies. Right now, the two sides are at the ready but not in combat. Much will depend on who fires first, or is perceived to have done so. In this heated ¬atmosphere, even a political sneeze could set off a massacre.
It goes without saying that both sides will lose from a confrontation. Critical to avoiding that is an understanding of the actual balance of forces. These are much less unfavourable to the UK than Brussels hawks and many British pessimists imagine. The claim by the Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, that “England has collapsed, politically, monetarily, constitutionally and economically” is wide of the mark. It is true that London is dwarfed by the economic might of the eurozone and the rest of the EU, and that it faces a period of considerable short-to-medium-term economic pressure. It is also true that the UK faces grave threats to its integrity in Scotland and, to a certain extent, in Northern Ireland.
That said, once a new government is formed, a highly coherent actor – the United Kingdom – will be facing a fatally divided ¬coalition, which is already showing cracks not merely between the Commission and the European Council, but within the Council itself. Moreover, once started, the struggle will be won not by those who can inflict the most, but by those who can endure the most. The UK has repeatedly demonstrated a capacity to defend her sovereignty against all comers. Her political fundamentals are strong. Mainland Europe, by contrast, has repeatedly demonstrated its propensity to fragment. Its political fundamentals (sadly) are weak.
The threat to the unity of the United Kingdom is greatly exaggerated. Wales remains fully committed, and voted Leave by a similar margin to England. In Northern Ireland the divisions are principally between the two faith communities, and only in the second instance between one of those communities and the British state. There is no chance whatsoever of the province leaving the UK.
It is true that in Scotland the vote for Brexit has created a material change of circumstances, entitling the Scottish National Party-led government to demand a fresh referendum on independence. That said, independence only ever made sense in the benign European environment before the 2008 crash, the onset of the migration crisis and the Russian threat. At that time, the Irish “tiger” economy served as a model. Since the euro crisis, this is no longer the case. Even as late as the failed 2014 referendum, there would still have been EU members on both sides of the border. Now all is utterly changed. If it left the UK now, Scotland would immediately have a “hard” border with England, the country with which it does most of its trade. It is currently a net beneficiary of the Union economically; it would lose that money with independence, but, as a rich state within the rest of the EU, it would be required to contribute more to Brussels. The oil price is low. A Scottish vote for independence would therefore pose a much greater risk than Brexit does to England and, indeed, to Scotland, if the Scots choose remain part of the UK. Given that Scotland joined the UK in order to guard against European dangers, how likely is she to throw in her lot with a European Union in possibly terminal crisis by leaving the most successful union project Europe has produced so far: the United Kingdom?
Moreover, once fully engaged against a hostile continent, the full apparatus of the Foreign Office would be turned to making a (bigger still) “pig’s breakfast” of the EU. It would find allies on the mainland, pouring salt into Europe’s self-inflicted wounds and inflicting new ones. London would revert to devising an old “balance of power” policy for the continent.
Besides, one should not assume that Britain will be sent, as President Barack Obama threatened, “to the back of the queue”; his administration has since rowed back rapidly on those threats. Britain may be more dependent on the single market than vice versa, but many sectors, such as Germany’s car manufacturing industry, would be destroyed by a trade war. The Irish government, which is obliged by EU law to erect a hard border with any non-member-state that is not part of Schengen, will feel sharper and quicker pain than the UK. Eastern European governments, which look to Britain as a bulwark against Russia, will want to bury the hatchet quickly. Spain has already indicated that it will block Scotland’s admission in order not to create a precedent for Catalonia. None of these states, which together make up a majority in the EU, is likely to pursue a prolonged vendetta against London. In short, though there is widespread dismay, sadness and anger at the British decision, it would be wrong to deduce from that a willingness to place a long-term bet on victory by the EU over the UK.
Naturally, with the exception of a few Brussels blowhards, there is hardly anybody in the EU who is insane enough to want to add a struggle with the UK to the Union’s many other problems, none of which has gone away, and all of which are likely to escalate. The worry is that, given its well-documented incompetence, the EU will “sleepwalk” into such a confrontation. This would turn the UK into a positive Russia on the western flank of Europe, destabilising it from the outside and sucking it dry of its most positive and dynamic elements, even more than the UK already does now. It does not have to be this way.
Today, almost everything is up in the air, most obviously in mainland Europe. The only fixed point we have is that the UK has reasserted its complete sovereignty by leaving the EU. Everything else will have to be ordered around that fact.

Brendan Simms’s latest book is “Britain’s Europe: a Thousand Years of Conflict and Co-operation” (Allen Lane)

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 11, 2016, 03:32:16 PM
A very interesting historical analysis of the reasons for the EU and Britain's relationship with it. It leads me to think Britain may have been better advised to have stayed outside it.

I don't think the result can be challenged and the Government appear to have accepted that they now have to exit.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 11, 2016, 04:03:26 PM
A very interesting historical analysis of the reasons for the EU and Britain's relationship with it. It leads me to think Britain may have been better advised to have stayed outside it.

I don't think the result can be challenged and the Government appear to have accepted that they now have to exit.


Indeed, and listening to the exit speech and the response by many EU MP's was very heartwarming, they still love us and want us....Oh and need us as well.

What challenge would this be? dear judgy a lot of people are doing something we don't like make them stop! 8)--))
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 11, 2016, 05:32:56 PM

Indeed, and listening to the exit speech and the response by many EU MP's was very heartwarming, they still love us and want us....Oh and need us as well.

What challenge would this be? dear judgy a lot of people are doing something we don't like make them stop! 8)--))

They want us? Or they want our money? Losing the second highest contributor to their budget must be pretty painful. [The highest if we didn't have the rebate].

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 11, 2016, 10:13:42 PM
The referendum result is open to legal challenge but it will make no difference. We are on our way out of the EU and we won't be the last by a long shot.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: mercury on July 11, 2016, 10:24:09 PM
The referendum result is open to legal challenge but it will make no difference. We are on our way out of the EU and we won't be the last by a long shot.

Because? Surely its up to parliament
And now that May is PM, a remainer, anythng is possible IMO
She will have a hard job persuading the exiters, but now with more power in her hands, watch this space
Either way I think she will do a better job than cameron and I aint no tory
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: mercury on July 11, 2016, 10:41:51 PM
Might want to scrub my last post


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/11/cameron-announces-he-will-step-down-after-pmqs-on-wednesday
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2016, 09:30:19 AM
Because? Surely its up to parliament
And now that May is PM, a remainer, anythng is possible IMO
She will have a hard job persuading the exiters, but now with more power in her hands, watch this space
Either way I think she will do a better job than cameron and I aint no tory

She has a problem because most MP's were Remainers;

MPs who want to overturn the EU referendum result have been told “the people have spoken" and there will be no parliamentary veto.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/688447/Brexit-parliament-vote-Article-50-MPs-referendum-result-veto

Parliament gave it's approval by voting on the Referendum Act. It seems illogical for them to approve an Act allowing the Electorate to vote and then to reject the result.

I'm actually impressed by the stance of the government which seems to have accepted the result.

It was, of course, a governmental exercise. The only way to stop it in my opinion is to force a general election as a new government could argue that they made no promise to implement the result.

Would a vote of no confidence in the government succeed? The Conservatives have 330 seats out of 650, so Conservative MP's would have to vote against their own government.

All MP's would have to consider if the Electorate would be impressed by the refusal of MP's to accept the will of the people. Even those who voted Remain may find themselves wondering 'what if' they had voted the other way?

Once again, the issue boils down to one of democracy. Do MP's represent the people or not? Judging by their actions since the referendum all the evidence says many of them don't.

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2016, 10:09:24 AM
She has a problem because most MP's were Remainers;

MPs who want to overturn the EU referendum result have been told “the people have spoken" and there will be no parliamentary veto.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/688447/Brexit-parliament-vote-Article-50-MPs-referendum-result-veto

Parliament gave it's approval by voting on the Referendum Act. It seems illogical for them to approve an Act allowing the Electorate to vote and then to reject the result.

I'm actually impressed by the stance of the government which seems to have accepted the result.

It was, of course, a governmental exercise. The only way to stop it in my opinion is to force a general election as a new government could argue that they made no promise to implement the result.

Would a vote of no confidence in the government succeed? The Conservatives have 330 seats out of 650, so Conservative MP's would have to vote against their own government.

All MP's would have to consider if the Electorate would be impressed by the refusal of MP's to accept the will of the people. Even those who voted Remain may find themselves wondering 'what if' they had voted the other way?

Once again, the issue boils down to one of democracy. Do MP's represent the people or not? Judging by their actions since the referendum all the evidence says many of them don't.

Parliament has given no approval to Brexit...will article 50 require a vote by parliament...no one seems to know and that's why legal challenges are being made . Can the high court stop the prime minister...does anyone really know.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2016, 10:24:00 AM
She has a problem because most MP's were Remainers;

MPs who want to overturn the EU referendum result have been told “the people have spoken" and there will be no parliamentary veto.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/688447/Brexit-parliament-vote-Article-50-MPs-referendum-result-veto

Parliament gave it's approval by voting on the Referendum Act. It seems illogical for them to approve an Act allowing the Electorate to vote and then to reject the result.

I'm actually impressed by the stance of the government which seems to have accepted the result.

It was, of course, a governmental exercise. The only way to stop it in my opinion is to force a general election as a new government could argue that they made no promise to implement the result.

Would a vote of no confidence in the government succeed? The Conservatives have 330 seats out of 650, so Conservative MP's would have to vote against their own government.

All MP's would have to consider if the Electorate would be impressed by the refusal of MP's to accept the will of the people. Even those who voted Remain may find themselves wondering 'what if' they had voted the other way?

Once again, the issue boils down to one of democracy. Do MP's represent the people or not? Judging by their actions since the referendum all the evidence says many of them don't.

If it was left to 'democracy', we would have capital punishment.

However, M.P.'s have the foresight en masse to reject that, again and again.

I favour for a murder conviction, life imprisonment, and literally for that term.

I also know that some people in the past have been executed by the state, for crimes they did not commit.

Sometimes, IMO , the public does not know best, many people react without thinking things through properly.

Don't you agree ?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2016, 11:26:14 AM
Parliament has given no approval to Brexit...will article 50 require a vote by parliament...no one seems to know and that's why legal challenges are being made . Can the high court stop the prime minister...does anyone really know.

Parliament approved the Referendum Act. Although the Act didn't make the result legally binding due to the concept of Parliamentary Supremacy, the government pretty much made it binding on them.

In it's leaflet, delivered nationwide, this government said;

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.

If a legal challenge was successful the government becomes untenable because it has been prevented from keeping it's promise.



Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2016, 01:56:23 PM
Parliament approved the Referendum Act. Although the Act didn't make the result legally binding due to the concept of Parliamentary Supremacy, the government pretty much made it binding on them.

In it's leaflet, delivered nationwide, this government said;

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide.

If a legal challenge was successful the government becomes untenable because it has been prevented from keeping it's promise.

It was Camerons govt that made that promise....that govt has gone. The new PM cannot be held responsible for promises made by Cameron. The govt position is not untenable unless there is a vote of no confidence by the house...that won't happen
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2016, 03:17:18 PM
It was Camerons govt that made that promise....that govt has gone. The new PM cannot be held responsible for promises made by Cameron. The govt position is not untenable unless there is a vote of no confidence by the house...that won't happen

He was leader, but the government isn't a new one, or is it? It was a promise by HM Government. not by Cameron per se.

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2016, 04:13:08 PM
He was leader, but the government isn't a new one, or is it? It was a promise by HM Government. not by Cameron per se.

The queen will ask May to form a new govt
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 12, 2016, 04:36:45 PM
David Cameron's statement to the House re the Referendum.

Starts 15.00

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 14, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
If it was left to 'democracy', we would have capital punishment.

However, M.P.'s have the foresight en masse to reject that, again and again.

I favour for a murder conviction, life imprisonment, and literally for that term.

I also know that some people in the past have been executed by the state, for crimes they did not commit.

Sometimes, IMO , the public does not know best, many people react without thinking things through properly.

Don't you agree ?


I do agree with that sentiment Stephen. I would also add that many millions would also agree. This brexit was not what it was made out to by some.  It was not demanding my personal life has changed so lets get everyone out, it was about community, culture, laws, country and what say we should have regarding government. We will survive this we have survived a lot worse.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: sadie on July 14, 2016, 10:49:27 PM
If it was left to 'democracy', we would have capital punishment.

However, M.P.'s have the foresight en masse to reject that, again and again.

I favour for a murder conviction, life imprisonment, and literally for that term.

I also know that some people in the past have been executed by the state, for crimes they did not commit.

Sometimes, IMO , the public does not know best, many people react without thinking things through properly.

Don't you agree ?

I agree with all that although I do not agree with life imprisonment meaning for life.  Except for a certain few really nasty premeditated murders or multiple murderers. 

Rather than thinking it through, too many people these days are taken in by the propaganda and razzmatazz, imo ... and they are a danger to Democracy. 

On TV today it was suggested that Politicians who deliberately lie in order to deceive, should be held responsible and punished.  What a good idea.  Why hasn't this been implemented before?

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 05:09:38 PM
According to Sky News, Mrs. May will be taking her time to inplement article 50, which is politcian talk for......


 &%+((£ 8(0(*
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 15, 2016, 06:40:39 PM
According to Sky News, Mrs. May will be taking her time to inplement article 50, which is politcian talk for......


 &%+((£ 8(0(*

She already stated it will be invoked by end of this year and her newly-appointed Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, David Davis, confirmed same yesterday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/14/new-brexit-minister-david-davis-declares-article-50-should-be-tr/

No Court can dictate to the UK government how they will govern.  The UK Parliament has ultimate veto over any Court.

Parliamentary sovereignty (also called parliamentary supremacy or legislative supremacy) is a concept in the constitutional law of some parliamentary democracies. It holds that the legislative body has absolute sovereignty, and is supreme over all other government institutions, including executive or judicial bodies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 15, 2016, 06:52:37 PM
She already stated it will be invoked by end of this year and her newly-appointed Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, David Davis, confirmed same yesterday.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/14/new-brexit-minister-david-davis-declares-article-50-should-be-tr/

No Court can dictate to the UK government how they will govern.  The UK Parliament has ultimate veto over any Court.

Parliamentary sovereignty (also called parliamentary supremacy or legislative supremacy) is a concept in the constitutional law of some parliamentary democracies. It holds that the legislative body has absolute sovereignty, and is supreme over all other government institutions, including executive or judicial bodies.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty

It is worth looking at what they both say and not what the press say they say.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 08:03:23 PM
 ?{)(**c
It is worth looking at what they both say and not what the press say they say.

Indeed.

What a politician does and what they do are often two different things.

Just look at the history of the Foreign Secretary as Mayor of London. 8)--))
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: misty on July 15, 2016, 08:24:48 PM
?{)(**c
Indeed.

What a politician does and what they do are often two different things.

Just look at the history of the Foreign Secretary as Mayor of London. 8)--))

54% of Londoners think he was a success.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/london-mayoral-elections-2016-an-analysis-of-boris-johnson-s-record-after-eight-years-in-office-a7013971.html

He may not be perfect but at least he's prepared to change his mind when he's wrong about something.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 08:37:51 PM
54% of Londoners think he was a success.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/london-mayoral-elections-2016-an-analysis-of-boris-johnson-s-record-after-eight-years-in-office-a7013971.html

He may not be perfect but at least he's prepared to change his mind when he's wrong about something.

Can you list his achievements, those things he promised to do and did.

What he lied about and failed to do,  I have already cited on here.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 15, 2016, 09:06:43 PM
Can you list his achievements, those things he promised to do and did.

What he lied about and failed to do,  I have already cited on here.

Boris Johnson is a democratically elected MP
You might not like him but that is of no importance
The electorate did
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 15, 2016, 09:54:23 PM
Theresa May played a blinder getting both Boris and Andrea on side.  We are certainly in for some interesting goings on as they prepare to invoke Article 50.  Onwards and upwards!   The Yanks and the Aussies just simply adore him apparently!    8@??)(
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 09:56:43 PM
Theresa May played a blinder getting both Boris and Andrea on side.  We are certainly in for some interesting goings on as they prepare to invoke Article 50.

All that is in prospect with her choices, is that she appointed the fall guys for the failures ahead.

Meanwhile in Turkey tonight there is an attempted military coup. So that will end Turkey's prospect of EU membership.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: misty on July 15, 2016, 10:00:10 PM
Can you list his achievements, those things he promised to do and did.

What he lied about and failed to do,  I have already cited on here.

You didn't bother to read the complete article I linked to?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 10:02:58 PM
You didn't bother to read the complete article I linked to?

Sorry to disappoint, but I did.

Including the ratings out of five.

The man is incompetent and a liar.

Unfortunately his buffoonery won him votes and fame.

In the real world he is a laughing stock.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: misty on July 15, 2016, 10:12:11 PM
Sorry to disappoint, but I did.

Including the ratings out of five.

The man is incompetent and a liar.

Unfortunately his buffoonery won him votes and fame.

In the real world he is a laughing stock.

Love him or loathe him, more of the UK public supported his rhetoric for Brexit than believed in a PM voted in on an English majority one year ago. The fickleness of the UK voter knows no bounds.
Just be thankful (from your own perspective) that Boris is not PM - yet.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 10:16:14 PM
Love him or loathe him, more of the UK public supported his rhetoric for Brexit than believed in a PM voted in on an English majority one year ago. The fickleness of the UK voter knows no bounds.
Just be thankful (from your own perspective) that Boris is not PM - yet.

Are you aware Misty of his major faux pas.

For example he accused the Turkish President of sexual relations with a goat.

Accused people in Africa of water melon smiles.....

He is a walking disaster.

Sooner or later, people will see him for what he is.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: misty on July 15, 2016, 10:27:01 PM
Are you aware Misty of his major faux pas.

For example he accused the Turkish President of sexual relations with a goat.

Accused people in Africa of water melon smiles.....

He is a walking disaster.

Sooner or later, people will see him for what he is.

I don't think the poem actually refers directly to the Turkish PM...... and he may just have put a G in the wrong place.......
He's funny & clever. I like him. Lighten up a bit - it's the only way to get through these dismal times.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2016, 10:32:02 PM
I don't think the poem actually refers directly to the Turkish PM...... and he may just have put a G in the wrong place.......
He's funny & clever. I like him. Lighten up a bit - it's the only way to get through these dismal times.

I like a good joke, but he's not it


As to intelligence, that is a matter of perspective as regards B. J..

Initials suiting him precisely. %&5%£ %&5%£

Could well be that May has played a blinder.

She knows he will flick up,  she will then sack him, and he will be off to the back benches and career over.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on July 15, 2016, 10:35:36 PM
Are you aware Misty of his major faux pas.

For example he accused the Turkish President of sexual relations with a goat.

Accused people in Africa of water melon smiles.....

He is a walking disaster.

Sooner or later, people will see him for what he is.

As a Londoner I thought you would know all about Boris' successes over the last 8 years?  If he can run what some call the greatest city in the world for eight years a little old brexit shouldn't cause him to lose any wickets any sleep.

http://londonist.com/2016/05/boris-legacy

Never mind the little fact that over 17 million people backed him?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2016, 11:21:04 PM
Theresa May played a blinder getting both Boris and Andrea on side.  We are certainly in for some interesting goings on as they prepare to invoke Article 50.  Onwards and upwards!   The Yanks and the Aussies just simply adore him apparently!    8@??)(

Yep, and The Yanks simply adore Donald Trump too !   %&5%£
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 16, 2016, 09:13:08 AM
As a Londoner I thought you would know all about Boris' successes over the last 8 years?  If he can run what some call the greatest city in the world for eight years a little old brexit shouldn't cause him to lose any wickets any sleep.

http://londonist.com/2016/05/boris-legacy

Never mind the little fact that over 17 million people backed him?

You need to read and study the history of B.J., his B.S. and lies.

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2016, 10:01:35 AM

   @)(++(*
Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox as the Three Brexiteers? Dream on
Marina Hyde

(snip)

A bold branding initiative is trying to cast them as the Three Brexiteers , but you’ll probably be less disappointed if you see them as Aramis, Werritys and Takethepiss.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/16/johnson-davis-fox-three-brexiteers
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 16, 2016, 11:49:32 AM
Love him or loathe him, more of the UK public supported his rhetoric for Brexit than believed in a PM voted in on an English majority one year ago. The fickleness of the UK voter knows no bounds.
Just be thankful (from your own perspective) that Boris is not PM - yet.

Last week his new boss didn't rate his negotiating skills having made some withering comment to the effect "last time Boris negotiated with the Germans he came back with three used water cannons"
But that was before she was his new boss.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 16, 2016, 11:59:20 AM
   @)(++(*
Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox as the Three Brexiteers? Dream on
Marina Hyde

(snip)

A bold branding initiative is trying to cast them as the Three Brexiteers , but you’ll probably be less disappointed if you see them as Aramis, Werritys and Takethepiss.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/16/johnson-davis-fox-three-brexiteers

Well one has to feel sympathy for them as they have to work out the impossible.
What is a Brexit? In someways like the Yeti. Everyone's talking about it, some may even assert they have seen its footprints but no one knows wtf one looks like. The trinity not only have to negotiate what it looks like with a bunch of arsey foreigners but then come back to explain to us why what they have just negotiated is just what we want. Honest guv it's not a camel it's a horse .... 
Give that job a body swerve methinks @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2016, 12:29:49 PM
Well one has to feel sympathy for them as they have to work out the impossible.
What is a Brexit? In someways like the Yeti. Everyone's talking about it, some may even assert they have seen its footprints but no one knows wtf one looks like. The trinity not only have to negotiate what it looks like with a bunch of arsey foreigners but then come back to explain to us why what they have just negotiated is just what we want. Honest guv it's not a camel it's a horse .... 
Give that job a body swerve methinks @)(++(*


It reminds me of an old joke.

"Johnny, did you share the chocolate with your sister?"

"Yes, I took the chocolates, and gave her the wrapping".


That's the logic of a 10 year-old...

Not even, perhaps a bright 8-year-old.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2016, 01:45:06 PM
I like a good joke, but he's not it


As to intelligence, that is a matter of perspective as regards B. J..

Initials suiting him precisely. %&5%£ %&5%£

Could well be that May has played a blinder.

She knows he will flick up,  she will then sack him, and he will be off to the back benches and career over.


I agree.

A real blinder.


Not only will Boris Johnson have egg all over his face, but when he cant deliver, it will prove just what awful things Brexit has done to the UK.

And it will be the fault of Boris Johnson and BREXIT rather than the Conservative Gov.



I hope that I am wrong and that Boris can make a success of it, for all our sakes.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2016, 11:48:28 PM
I agree.

A real blinder.


Not only will Boris Johnson have egg all over his face, but when he cant deliver, it will prove just what awful things Brexit has done to the UK.

And it will be the fault of Boris Johnson and BREXIT rather than the Conservative Gov.



I hope that I am wrong and that Boris can make a success of it, for all our sakes.

Boris isn't dealing with Brexit, from what I can gather.

I'm not quite sure what he actually will be dealing with... I hope it's not peace in the Middle East.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: mercury on July 16, 2016, 11:50:33 PM
Boris isn't dealing with Brexit, from what I can gather.

I'm not quite sure what he actually will be dealing with... I hope it's not peace in the Middle East.
You never know,blair achieved zilch after being horrendously named and appointed as middle east peace envoy, you couldbe surprised
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 24, 2016, 10:23:00 PM
You need to read and study the history of B.J., his B.S. and lies.

Oh I think those are well documented Stephen lol
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2016, 09:57:10 AM
Oh I think those are well documented Stephen lol

It seems some ignore his complete failings, because they think he is a jolly good chap.

He isn't.

He is a cunning and conniving little shi##e, who played the wrong cards in the referendum.

His tendency to open his gob before thinking, will be his eventual undoing.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 25, 2016, 11:26:06 AM
It seems some ignore his complete failings, because they think he is a jolly good chap.

He isn't.

He is a cunning and conniving little shi##e, who played the wrong cards in the referendum.

His tendency to open his gob before thinking, will be his eventual undoing.


I would have to disagree.... I do not accept ANY politician played any part in BREXIT voting. I believe that many actual voting brexiters were not influenced by politicians or party affiliations as it would seem most voted against both main parties insisting we remain.  The remain camp did a lot of underhand sh!  t too  8(>((

I mean phoney Tony, kinnocks slurping the EU gravy from that train,slimey mandie, and co ew what a team.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on August 03, 2016, 04:43:05 PM
Whatever happened to those legal challenges to Brexit?  Have they fallen on stoney ground?   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2016, 05:19:09 PM
Whatever happened to those legal challenges to Brexit?  Have they fallen on stoney ground?   @)(++(*

October John. 8)--))
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on August 03, 2016, 06:18:41 PM
October John. 8)--))

You don't actually think they could ever achieve anything do you?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2016, 06:27:18 PM
You don't actually think they could ever achieve anything do you?

I see you haven't been keeping up with the latest, in terms of likely implementation of Brexit.

As to the court cases, merely the first step.

Try looking them up.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on August 03, 2016, 06:33:24 PM
I see you haven't been keeping up with the latest, in terms of likely implementation of Brexit.

As to the court cases, merely the first step.

Try looking them up.

I don't need to Stephen, as our Lady PM has already stated, Brexit is a fact and she should know being the most powerful person in the UK.  No Court can turn the tables on Parliament but ....
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2016, 06:34:26 PM
I don't need to Stephen, as our Lady PM has already stated, Brexit is a fact and she should know being the most powerful person in the UK.

We will, see.

By the way John, when did the electorate elect May ?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on August 03, 2016, 06:35:31 PM
We will, see.

By the way John, when did the electorate elect May ?

At the last General Election.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2016, 06:38:06 PM
At the last General Election.

Not as P.M.  8)-)))

Just 199 Tories.

Hardly democratic dear boy. 8**8:/:

As to Brexit, as you will find, it is not set in stone.

You really shouldn't believe everything T.M. says.

Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Alfie on August 03, 2016, 06:45:01 PM
I don't need to Stephen, as our Lady PM has already stated, Brexit is a fact and she should know being the most powerful person in the UK.  No Court can turn the tables on Parliament but ....
Your faith in Theresa May to deliver you from the beastly EU really is very touching...
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: John on August 03, 2016, 09:52:25 PM
Your faith in Theresa May to deliver you from the beastly EU really is very touching...

The Steel Lady will deliver.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2016, 09:54:22 PM
The Steel Lady will deliver.


A limp sauscisson. *&*%£
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 14, 2016, 06:53:28 PM
I can envisage new laws coming out.. how exactly does that work. The majority of voters made a choice, the governement of the day accepted this, some didn't like it so took their case to court and the judge says.. aye yer right how dare they boogers vote us oot. As a judge I declare The vote is illegal based on a technicality. 

Can we ask who is paying for this ? not legal aid surely...hahahahaha
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: misty on September 07, 2016, 12:59:42 PM
As a result of millions signing the petition:_

 “EU Referendum Rules triggering a 2nd EU Referendum”

Watch the debate: http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/cb2f33f6-f9fe-463e-a6d5-40eca4b614c0

Read the transcript: https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-09-05/debates/1609058000001/EUReferendumRules
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 04, 2019, 08:50:52 AM
How can voters make informed decisions based on misleading information?  It seems to me there was a lot of misleading info from both camps (and the reason I didn't bother voting).  Perhaps the most highlighted example was the claim that if the UK exited the EU £350 million a week could be spent on the NHS.

Following the result/Brexit it seems the UK wants to negotiate access to the 'single market' but with restrictions placed on the 'free movement of people'.  It seems as far as the EU is concerned one is contingent on the other.  As I understand it many people voted leave as they are unhappy about the levels of immigration into the UK.

I'm struggling to think of any other area of life where it would be possible for groups of individuals to provide misleading information in order to persuade others to take a course of action without any consequences.

The following is interesting and explains why political advertising falls outside the Advertising Standards Authority:

https://www.asa.org.uk/News-resources/Media-Centre/2014/Political-advertising.aspx#.V3pz4TWGzIU

It appears freedom of speech takes precedence when it comes to political advertising and yet everyone else has to play by the rules or risk consequences:

https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Non-compliant-online-advertisers.aspx

83
 

I hope this goes to trial and someone is held accountable for the misleading info plastered over the Boris battle bus.  Everyone else, individuals and organisations, have to play by the rules laid down by the Advertising Standards Authority.

http://www.reuters.tv/v/P9ER/2019/05/29/boris-johnson-faces-trial-over-brexit-claims

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 04, 2019, 02:44:57 PM
I hope this goes to trial and someone is held accountable for the misleading info plastered over the Boris battle bus.  Everyone else, individuals and organisations, have to play by the rules laid down by the Advertising Standards Authority.

http://www.reuters.tv/v/P9ER/2019/05/29/boris-johnson-faces-trial-over-brexit-claims

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/boris-johnson-trial-brexit-court-lying-prosecution-nhs-vote-leave-a8934451.html
Haven’t you heard?  Someone is bringing a private prosecution against Boris Johnson for this very thing!
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 04, 2019, 08:05:35 PM
Haven’t you heard?  Someone is bringing a private prosecution against Boris Johnson for this very thing!

Yes, see the links above.  About time imo.  No other individual acting in a professional capacity or organisation is allowed to advertise unsupported claims.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 09:30:51 AM
Yes, see the links above.  About time imo.  No other individual acting in a professional capacity or organisation is allowed to advertise unsupported claims.

Which claims were supported by facts?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 07, 2019, 01:28:16 PM
Which claims were supported by facts?

No idea.  It was obvious to me both sides were bandying about all sorts of unsubstantiated claims.  I lost interest and did not have the time or inclination to undertake my own research.  The point is only in the world of politics are politicians allowed to get away with misleading the public. 

In any other walk of life: car sales, financial services, utilities, telecomms, pharma ind, food ind etc, etc suppliers are duty bound to provide accurate info supported by meaningful and relevant data to enable consumers to make informed choices.  And when something goes awry those responsible are held to account and redress given.

     
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2019, 04:44:31 PM
@ Holly


The case failed. Not because Johnson's wild claim was true, but due to murky laws.

http://barristerblogger.com/2018/09/14/prosecuting-boris-johnson-over-brexit-lies-would-be-an-ill-conceived-publicity-stunt/
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:02:23 PM
@ Holly


The case failed. Not because Johnson's wild claim was true, but due to murky laws.

http://barristerblogger.com/2018/09/14/prosecuting-boris-johnson-over-brexit-lies-would-be-an-ill-conceived-publicity-stunt/
It’s going ahead.

ETA:  sorry, just seen the news, I was wrong :-/
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 01:46:38 PM
@ Holly


The case failed. Not because Johnson's wild claim was true, but due to murky laws.

http://barristerblogger.com/2018/09/14/prosecuting-boris-johnson-over-brexit-lies-would-be-an-ill-conceived-publicity-stunt/

It was a private proscecution- looked upon as vexatious. waste of money.
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2019, 02:24:02 PM
Not sure why he'd come into the vexatious litigant category, but I don't know much about him.

I'm not sure who was legally responsible for signing off the £350 slogan. Did he actively tout it as truth (can't remember). If he did, why do so if he knew it was rubbish?
Title: Re: Could the referendum result be legally challenged?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 09:01:57 PM
Not sure why he'd come into the vexatious litigant category, but I don't know much about him.

I'm not sure who was legally responsible for signing off the £350 slogan. Did he actively tout it as truth (can't remember). If he did, why do so if he knew it was rubbish?

Firstly clearing any misconception- I do not like BOJO not one bit!  However, on this  particular matter it was claimed that the money spent on the EU could be spent on NHS - no one said it was going to be. scrapping VAT would be a god send for may businesses and public alike.  20% is way toomuch- the actual amount we pay in tax from each pound we earn-calculated would astound people!  AND THAT ratfest of a Labour party under phony Tony hiked up tax on a lot more things for a lot less to show for it.. well apart from big guns and war stuff........... it is the lower paid who pay more tax. many rich people don't pay any.