Brexit has well and truly begun!

[Carana]

Two blog articles that I found interesting.


 Brexiters are running away from the consequences of what they have inflicted on Britain
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/05/brexiters-are-running-away-from.html


Brexit lobbyists and climate science deniers become embedded in the mainstream press
https://theecologist.org/2018/sep/12/brexit-lobbyists-and-climate-science-deniers-become-embedded-mainstream-press

There's actually more to the saga than is mentioned in the 2nd one as it doesn't really touch on all the far-right US and Russian connections.

[Carana]

It's very difficult to know what the result of leaving the EU would be. We don't know what motives or vested interests commentators have. Leavers have been accused of lying, remainers of spreadng fear. The public have been accused of being guillible.

What is clear is that all the arguing has damaged the concept of democracy. It took centuries to wrest power from those who ruled, and for every adult to have a vote. For nillions of people that's all they have; the opportunity to use that vote to express their opinions and desires.

Everything which has happened since the referendum has, in my opinion, undermined the value of that vote and the idea that we live in a society which respects the will of the majority.

Whatever happens in the end the damage to the credibility of our political system will remain.

I take your point, but 2.5 years ago people were were fed lies, distorted half-truths and the promises were devoid of any basis in reality. There was no deal for people to weigh up (there still isn't). Even some of the politicians apparently beleived the plan was to stay in the single market and customs union. The term "cakeism" was born.

Now that the choices and implications are clearer, why not go back to the people and ask them which they feel is best?

[Carana]

For anyone wondering what references to Tufton Street are about:
http://www.brexitshambles.com/brexit-scam-we-need-to-talk-about-tufton-street/

I'll dig out some other reading on connections to the far-right US lobbies / big businesses.

[Carana]

The radio host Julia Hartley-Brewer on how she would have led Brexit negotiations. She appears to follow the ERG line of thinking. Which has got the UK precisely nowhere in 2.5 years.
https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/1101172244141785094


She also thinks that no-deal is a term of departure. Dominic Grieve attempts to set her straight.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/dominic-grieve-and-julia-hartley-brewer-on-a-no-deal-brexit-1-5910466

[Carana]

Interesting thread on the history of mumblings about a referendum.

There's also a clip of an interview with Cameron. He was so convinced he could quash the Eurosceptics by holdng a referendum in which people would necessarily vote to remain that he hadn't even thought through what would happen if it all went t*ts up.

And the rest is history...


Property Spotter
‏ @PropertySpot

For Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, Brexit was never meant to be about leaving the EU.

Thread.  (1/x)

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1100079086192480256

[Venturi Swirl]

It's very difficult to know what the result of leaving the EU would be. We don't know what motives or vested interests commentators have. Leavers have been accused of lying, remainers of spreadng fear. The public have been accused of being guillible.

What is clear is that all the arguing has damaged the concept of democracy. It took centuries to wrest power from those who ruled, and for every adult to have a vote. For nillions of people that's all they have; the opportunity to use that vote to express their opinions and desires.

Everything which has happened since the referendum has, in my opinion, undermined the value of that vote and the idea that we live in a society which respects the will of the majority.

Whatever happens in the end the damage to the credibility of our political system will remain.

Even if we crash out without a deal and make all Brexiteers ‘ dreams come true?

[G-Unit]

I take your point, but 2.5 years ago people were were fed lies, distorted half-truths and the promises were devoid of any basis in reality. There was no deal for people to weigh up (there still isn't). Even some of the politicians apparently beleived the plan was to stay in the single market and customs union. The term "cakeism" was born.

Now that the choices and implications are clearer, why not go back to the people and ask them which they feel is best?

You seem to share the remainer's opinion of the British people. I don't think they're anywhere near as guillible and easily swayed as you are suggesting. Perhaps it's you who are swallowing and repeating the remainer's propaganda.

What is clear is that there's still a sustained and unrelenting canpaign to stop Brexit from happening. The claims that this campaign is driven by concern for our economy and our country may be true, but they were rejected by a majority of those who voted in the referendum.

Now that the campaigners have insulted the voters by revealing what they really think of them I think they are taking a huge chance by suggesting the people should be asked furtherr questions. If the public have learned anything it's to rake everything said by politicians and the media with a lorry loead of salt.

[Venturi Swirl]

You seem to share the remainer's opinion of the British people. I don't think they're anywhere near as guillible and easily swayed as you are suggesting. Perhaps it's you who are swallowing and repeating the remainer's propaganda.

What is clear is that there's still a sustained and unrelenting canpaign to stop Brexit from happening. The claims that this campaign is driven by concern for our economy and our country may be true, but they were rejected by a majority of those who voted in the referendum.

Now that the campaigners have insulted the voters by revealing what they really think of them I think they are taking a huge chance by suggesting the people should be asked furtherr questions. If the public have learned anything it's to rake everything said by politicians and the media with a lorry loead of salt.

What is wrong with asking the public to vote for May’s deal or no deal?

[G-Unit]

What is wrong with asking the public to vote for May’s deal or no deal?

I'd be very surprised if the public were asked if they wanted a no deal exit.

[Venturi Swirl]

I'd be very surprised if the public were asked if they wanted a no deal exit.

That’s not answering the question.

[Carana]

I'd be very surprised if the public were asked if they wanted a no deal exit.

That's one of the suggestions going around - again probably to appease the Faragistas & the ERGonites who've changed their tune from 'rich Norway' (Farage), "no one's talking about leaving the Single Market' (Hannan?) and general cakeism (BoJo and all the rest of them) to anything other than a "clean break" is a "betrayal of Brexit means Brexit'.

I can understand that people are fed up of it dominating the news (aren't we all?), so the idea of a "clean break" (let's just get on with it, we survived the War after all) may appeal to some of those weary of the while thing.   

However, the imminent reality of a "clean Brexit" is the equivalent of suggesting that everyone jumps of a cliff and hopes that parachutes will somehow appear out of nowhere. Or, if Grayling is in charge of ordering them, faulty umbrellas from a company that has never made any.

The idea that an isolated UK would then somehow be in a position of strength to dictate its terms is pure fantasy. It doesn't even happen in nature, let alone international negotiations.

[Carana]

Whatever the type of Brexit 37% of the electorate voted for, I find it highly unlikely that it was to shoot themselves in the foot and having to wait for an emergency consignment of bandaids and [ censored word]eptic.

[Venturi Swirl]

Whatever the type of Brexit 37% of the electorate voted for, I find it highly unlikely that it was to shoot themselves in the foot and having to wait for an emergency consignment of bandaids and [ censored word]eptic.

Incidents of self-harm are on the rise though so....

[G-Unit]

That’s not answering the question.

I see no reason to amswer yout question as it's speculative. The questions you suggest aren't those that would be asked, in my opinion.

[Carana]

The anti-EU disinforrmation brigade is in full swing on Facebook, apparently, and it's spreading on Twittter.


chrissie lefranc
‏ @chrissielefranc

Just been reading some of The Lisbon Treaty, very worrying. By 2020 we lose our veto, control over fishing, agriculture and more. Also by 2022 all countries must adopt the Euro. How can Theresa May and our MPs want to keep us in such an appalling club? Mental.
8:55 PM - 28 Feb 2019

It was debunked over a month ago...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087258784001654784.html


And a variation on the same theme, supposedly stated by Macron.

Not true either:

Full Fact
‏Verified account @FullFact

A Facebook post claims Emmanuel Macron said the UK must meet a number of conditions if it wants to remain in the EU.

We could find no evidence of this.

The French Embassy in London has now confirmed to us that Mr Macron said none of these things.
https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1100644197437124608