UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Anthro on April 20, 2023, 12:11:57 PM
-
Bad news just in.
A court in the German city of Braunschweig has thrown out rape and sexual offence charges against Christian Brueckner, who has been formally identified as an official suspect in the Madeleine McCann case, his lawyer said on Thursday.
The court's decision means that legal authorities in Braunschweig have no jurisdiction over the case of "Maddie", a British girl who disappeared in Portugal in 2007 at the age of 3.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-court-drops-trial-suspect-madeleine-mccann-case-bild-2023-04-20/
-
Bad news just in.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-court-drops-trial-suspect-madeleine-mccann-case-bild-2023-04-20/
Thanks Anthro.
Certainly explains the delay.
Snip
The possible trial of Brueckner collapsed because the court deemed itself not to have jurisdiction over the case and lifted the arrest warrant against him.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-court-drops-trial-suspect-madeleine-mccann-case-bild-2023-04-20/
Excellent move for the time being by Brueckner's legal team regarding jurisdiction. I said they were good. I think that will be a forewarning for prosecutors regarding Madeleine's case and why the Portuguese Statute of Limitations is no longer in force.
Very disappointing none the less.
-
The mail have this to say.
EXCLUSIVE: Madeleine McCann investigation bombshell as court rules German prosecutors have NO jurisdiction to pursue a case against suspect Christian Brueckner
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11994681/Madeleine-McCann-German-prosecutors-NO-jurisdiction-against-suspect-Christian-Brueckner.html
-
Bad news just in.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-court-drops-trial-suspect-madeleine-mccann-case-bild-2023-04-20/
Why is it bad news ?
-
Thanks Anthro.
Certainly explains the delay.
Snip
The possible trial of Brueckner collapsed because the court deemed itself not to have jurisdiction over the case and lifted the arrest warrant against him.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-court-drops-trial-suspect-madeleine-mccann-case-bild-2023-04-20/
Excellent move for the time being by Brueckner's legal team regarding jurisdiction. I said they were good. I think that will be a forewarning for prosecutors regarding Madeleine's case and why the Portuguese Statute of Limitations is no longer in force.
Very disappointing none the less.
I've no doubt Braunschweig prosecutors will appeal if they can, if only because it may impact upon their right to have prosecuted the first rape case.
-
I've no doubt Braunschweig prosecutors will appeal if they can, if only because it may impact upon their right to have prosecuted the first rape case.
I hadn't thought of that. Could such a ruling be applied retrospectively ?
-
I hadn't thought of that. Could such a ruling be applied retrospectively ?
I would have thought it would have to be looked at. I don't think CB had a talented lawyer before, but it looks like he has now.
-
Not forgetting there are victims here who it seems mighten see justice.
-
I've no doubt Braunschweig prosecutors will appeal if they can, if only because it may impact upon their right to have prosecuted the first rape case.
I think it highly likely that an appeal will be made. I don't think there is any question of it impinging on his rape conviction.
If memory serves me well the question of jurisdiction was raised after his extradition from Italy and it was decided then that Germany had the right to prosecute. Maybe he couldn't afford to pay for such a high powered legal team before his present notoriety became apparent.
-
Why is it bad news ?
because not everybody is happy to see rapists get off on a legal technicality.
-
because not everybody is happy to see rapists get off on a legal technicality.
If there is a case against him...then this is just a delaying tactic. We might get to see more of the evidence
-
If there is a case against him...then this is just a delaying tactic. We might get to see more of the evidence
Hope so. I would like to see the video evidence.
-
I think it highly likely that an appeal will be made. I don't think there is any question of it impinging on his rape conviction.
If memory serves me well the question of jurisdiction was raised after his extradition from Italy and it was decided then that Germany had the right to prosecute. Maybe he couldn't afford to pay for such a high powered legal team before his present notoriety became apparent.
Presumably Wolters is an employee of the Regional Court, so which authority would he be appealing to?
Would he be appealing as an individual ?
-
Presumably Wolters is an employee of the Regional Court, so which authority would he be appealing to?
Would he be appealing as an individual ?
You seem to have missed Gunit raising the subject by saying, " I've no doubt Braunschweig prosecutors will appeal if they can,"
I have agreed I think they will if possible but I have no more inner knowledge than she or thee. But have no fear I'm thinking all is not lost as I'm sure the Germans will be in possession of the knowledge of how to go about it.
I'm flattered you seem to think I'm the font of all knowledge, though.
-
I think it highly likely that an appeal will be made. I don't think there is any question of it impinging on his rape conviction.
If memory serves me well the question of jurisdiction was raised after his extradition from Italy and it was decided then that Germany had the right to prosecute. Maybe he couldn't afford to pay for such a high powered legal team before his present notoriety became apparent.
It was ruled that Germany had the right to extradict him, but the question of whether Braunschweig had the jurisdiction to prosecute him wasn't addressed afaik.
-
Perhaps Portugal will get him back. That could be interesting.
-
Why is it bad news ?
Justice delayed, justice denied.
-
Justice delayed, justice denied.
Justice delayed, I agree, but I doubt it will be denied. Its just that another court will assess the available evidence.
It may however indicate the end of Wolters involvement.
-
Justice delayed, I agree, but I doubt it will be denied. Its just that another court will assess the available evidence.
It may however indicate the end of Wolters involvement.
If that other court is in Portugal it will be justice denied IMO.
-
If that other court is in Portugal it will be justice denied IMO.
He would be loose on the streets in no time and back to wandering around Europe. Portugal wouldn't want to keep him.
-
It was ruled that Germany had the right to extradict him, but the question of whether Braunschweig had the jurisdiction to prosecute him wasn't addressed afaik.
I was mistaken. Brueckner had the same lawyer in the previous rape case as he does now, "Christian B escaped justice for 12 years before being snared on DNA evidence but his lawyer Friedrich Fulscher has insisted the evidence is tainted."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12477416/madeleine-mccann-suspect-christian-b-rape-videos/
So he certainly has had time to work on his strategy.
It is interesting that when the Italian police arrested him all he was carrying was a bible and a card with his lawyer's number on it https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8395677/Italian-police-set-trap-Madeleine-McCann-suspect-Christian-Brueckner.html
-
If that other court is in Portugal it will be justice denied IMO.
I doubt Portugal would accept it. Statute of limitations and all that.
-
I doubt Portugal would accept it. Statute of limitations and all that.
Portugal made him an ‘arguido’ before the statute of limitations lapsed.
-
Portugal made him an ‘arguido’ before the statute of limitations lapsed.
I was meaning all the charges unrelated to Madeleine, though I doubt they would want to touch that one either.
-
I was meaning all the charges unrelated to Madeleine, though I doubt they would want to touch that one either.
Debatable. I'm not sure.
-
Debatable. I'm not sure.
As far as I know, CB is to be released in January 2025 re. Diana Menkes sentence. If it’s the case, another court and jurisdiction will have limited time to progress the five charges and Madeleine’s case.
-
At least we don't have to worry about anyone's Human Rights in Germany.
-
As far as I know, CB is to be released in January 2025 re. Diana Menkes sentence. If it’s the case, another court and jurisdiction will have limited time to progress the five charges and Madeleine’s case.
The Portugal Resident thinks that "Madeleine McCann suspect: defence lawyer pulls ‘rabbit out of hat’
By Natasha Donn -20th April 2023
Brueckner is a designated arguidp in Portugal so doubtful if he will return there voluntarily. But on release the rest of Eurpe is his oyster.
-
The Portugal Resident thinks that "Madeleine McCann suspect: defence lawyer pulls ‘rabbit out of hat’
By Natasha Donn -20th April 2023
Brueckner is a designated arguidp in Portugal so doubtful if he will return there voluntarily. But on release the rest of Eurpe is his oyster.
Could that include Britain do you think?
Could Britain have jurisdiction if they caught him?
-
The Portugal Resident thinks that "Madeleine McCann suspect: defence lawyer pulls ‘rabbit out of hat’
By Natasha Donn -20th April 2023
Brueckner is a designated arguidp in Portugal so doubtful if he will return there voluntarily. But on release the rest of Eurpe is his oyster.
"a rat out of a sewer" would be a more apt description.
-
Could that include Britain do you think?
Could Britain have jurisdiction if they caught him?
Perhaps the troll can have him to stay when he gets released.
-
At least we don't have to worry about anyone's Human Rights in Germany.
It is difficult enough to get a rape case as far as trial under any circumstances. At he moment this is a classic precedent for "get out of jail free" loophole in the law. The implications of which may have far reaching implications for criminals whose abode is unknown or can be fixed.
I think the decision of the Landgericht Braunschweig really has to be challenged somewhere possible. It isn't too long ago since Brueckner's release on parole was declined because of the perceived danger to the public represented by him. It really is a bit of a mix-mash.
In the meantime Brueckber's backers ~ in particular those paying his legal fees ~ can be organising his welcome home to wherever in two years time, wherever it is decided 'home' may be.
I sincerely hope it isn't anywhere near me. But no worries, there are plenty who might be prepared to give him house room.
-
It is difficult enough to get a rape case as far as trial under any circumstances. At he moment this is a classic precedent for "get out of jail free" loophole in the law. The implications of which may have far reaching implications for criminals whose abode is unknown or can be fixed.
I think the decision of the Landgericht Braunschweig really has to be challenged somewhere possible. It isn't too long ago since Brueckner's release on parole was declined because of the perceived danger to the public represented by him. It really is a bit of a mix-mash.
In the meantime Brueckber's backers ~ in particular those paying his legal fees ~ can be organising his welcome home to wherever in two years time, wherever it is decided 'home' may be.
I sincerely hope it isn't anywhere near me. But no worries, there are plenty who might be prepared to give him house room.
I can think of a couple or three. Just hope they don't get on The Jury if he is caught in Britain.
-
He seems to prefer the sun, so perhaps Spain or Italy, rather than wet and windy Britain.
-
Could that include Britain do you think?
Could Britain have jurisdiction if they caught him?
Brexit has thrown up many anomalies affecting Britain which is inclusive of many legal issues.
My opinion is that if jurisdiction is an issue for Germany that problem doesn't arise in Portugal because he is arguido in Madeleine's case. But it has to be borne in mind that Madeleine McCann's case is not one of those five rejected. The circumstances surrounding hers may be entirely different.
At the moment it is the five separate cases whose victims will never receive justice as they are all timed out in Portugal.
-
Brexit has thrown up many anomalies affecting Britain which is inclusive of many legal issues.
My opinion is that if jurisdiction is an issue for Germany that problem doesn't arise in Portugal because he is arguido in Madeleine's case. But it has to be borne in mind that Madeleine McCann's case is not one of those five rejected. The circumstances surrounding hers may be entirely different.
At the moment it is the five separate cases whose victims will never receive justice as they are all timed out in Portugal.
Another German court may decide to pursue the cases once jurisdiction has been established.
If not he will be considered innocent in the eye of the law.
-
Perhaps the troll can have him to stay when he gets released.
Well, if he doesn't face trial for all the raping & molesting he did, purely on technicalities, then I'd still be legally obliged to presume him innocent of any offences. That is The Law. So yes, I can't see any good reason why he shouldn't come & rent my greenhouse. He might grow something I like in there.
-
He seems to prefer the sun, so perhaps Spain or Italy, rather than wet and windy Britain.
I have puzzled about who was lifting the legal fees or was it all being done pro bono, for a long time.
The fact of Brueckner having only a bible on him and his lawyer's phone number when arrested in Italy is interesting.
-
Another German court may decide to pursue the cases once jurisdiction has been established.
If not he will be considered innocent in the eye of the law.
Indeed.
Innocent until proven guilty and you won't be if your lawyer can get you off on a technicality which seems to be even better.
-
I would think it would simply be transferred to another area in Germany.
-
I would think it would simply be transferred to another area in Germany.
I understand that this is a possibility, but what governs The Jurisdiction? And what was legally wrong with the current Jurisdiction?
-
I understand that this is a possibility, but what governs The Jurisdiction? And what was legally wrong with the current Jurisdiction?
The jurisdiction is only about where he can be tried in Germany...and is governed by the last place he lived. There is some dispute about this but it looks like he's claiming he lived in the box factory in lower Saxony..if thsts the case that's where hell be tried
-
The jurisdiction is only about where he can be tried in Germany...and is governed by the last place he lived. There is some dispute about this but it looks like he's claiming he lived in the box factory in lower Saxony..if thsts the case that's where hell be tried
If the prosecutors in that area agree that there's enough evidence to charge him.
-
The jurisdiction is only about where he can be tried in Germany...and is governed by the last place he lived. There is some dispute about this but it looks like he's claiming he lived in the box factory in lower Saxony..if thsts the case that's where hell be tried
Thank you. Easy enough to understand.
-
If the prosecutors in that area agree that there's enough evidence to charge him.
Of course..it will be interesting if they do. You and a lot of others have questioned that so we will hopefully soon know the answer.
If they do charge it will show Wolters was correct.
.....plus of course Wolters may have grounds to appeal the ruling.
It does show how impartial snd fair the German courts are
-
If the prosecutors in that area agree that there's enough evidence to charge him.
Witnesses in The Child Abuse Cases and a Police Arrest. That will do for starters.
-
I understand that this is a possibility, but what governs The Jurisdiction? And what was legally wrong with the current Jurisdiction?
Under normal circumstances there is no difficulty in establishing where a person is resident or has been resident. That is not the case with Brueckner or anyone else who has reason to keep a low profile as far as whereabouts are concerned.
For example Brueckner did not disclose that he was in residence in the cottage in Luz which he asked his mates to clear out and trash as if it had been burglarised when he was doing time for the fuel theft.
-
Under normal circumstances there is no difficulty in establishing where a person is resident or has been resident. That is not the case with Brueckner or anyone else who has reason to keep a low profile as far as whereabouts are concerned.
For example Brueckner did not disclose that he was in residence in the cottage in Luz which he asked his mates to clear out and trash as if it had been burglarised when he was doing time for the fuel theft.
Good point..it may well Wolters has acted in.good faith and been caugjt out by information CB hasn't mentioned before
-
Just in.
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/04/21/exclusive-maddie-suspect-sex-crimes-trial-will-still-go-ahead/
-
Just in.
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/04/21/exclusive-maddie-suspect-sex-crimes-trial-will-still-go-ahead/
So the outlook is not as dismal as it appeared although it is proof positive of Germany's firm commitment to upholding everyone's human rights.
-
Just in.
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/04/21/exclusive-maddie-suspect-sex-crimes-trial-will-still-go-ahead/
Excellent news.
-
So the outlook is not as dismal as it appeared although it is proof positive of Germany's firm commitment to upholding everyone's human rights.
The Mail misrepresented it... it isnt Germany that doesnt have jurisdiction its Braunschweig which doesnt have it. It will all be sorted once the courts happy with which area of Germany has jurisdiction. ...and if the evidence satisfies taht prosecutor it will go ahead. Interesting that FF is trying every trick in the book to keep his client out of court.
-
Just in.
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/04/21/exclusive-maddie-suspect-sex-crimes-trial-will-still-go-ahead/
thanks but its behind a paywall... could you give an account of what it says
-
The Mail misrepresented it... it isnt Germany that doesnt have jurisdiction its Braunschweig which doesnt have it. It will all be sorted once the courts happy with which area of Germany has jurisdiction. ...and if the evidence satisfies taht prosecutor it will go ahead. Interesting that FF is trying every trick in the book to keep his client out of court.
Yes, I wonder why Bruckner's cast iron alibi wasn't enough...?
-
I have it in my mind that Brueckner will refuse to offer a Plea. I seem to remember that we discussed this some time ago, but maybe not. I'm just not sure.
That would have it's own implications.
-
Yes, I wonder why Bruckner's cast iron alibi wasn't enough...?
Whatever happened to Mark Williams Thomas? We never did hear the end to his meanderings on The Alibi.
-
Whatever happened to Mark Williams Thomas? We never did hear the end to his meanderings on The Alibi.
He's forever rabbiting on about woke, walked and wandered even though Clarence, on behalf of the McCanns, has thoroughly rubbished it. And despite claiming he knows everything about the case, still can't get basic facts right, such as Kate being a trained and practising anaesthetist before deciding to become a GP...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjxQjtNJuWQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjxQjtNJuWQ)
-
thanks but its behind a paywall... could you give an account of what it says
EXCLUSIVE: Madeleine McCann suspect sex crimes trial will STILL go ahead
21 Apr, 2023 @ 13:06
A SEX offences trial of Madeleine McCann suspect Christian Brueckner in Germany has not been cancelled.
Despite global headlines to the contrary yesterday, a date had not yet been set for a hearing of the five charges that were levelled at the convicted paedophile, 46, in October last year.
The chief prosecutor in the case has told the Olive Press it is ‘merely an issue of jurisdiction’ and the trial will ‘certainly’ still go ahead.
Hans Christian Wolters confirmed there was ‘no reason to speculate’ and ‘nothing has changed’ after Braunschweig Landgericht, or the city’s lower court, provisionally passed the case over to the region of Magdeburg.
“And in terms of the Maddie case, for now, nothing will change as a result of the decision and we are continuing to investigate it,” he added.
Jon Clarke With German Prosecutor Wolters.
Jon Clarke with German Prosecutor Wolters
In fact, police sources in Germany, told the Olive Press the case against Brueckner abducting and killing the British toddler in Praia da Luz, in May 2007, is ‘stronger than ever’.
And meanwhile, new evidence has emerged over the five sex charges, three rapes and two child abuse cases, all in Portugal, between 1999 and 2017.
Hazel
HORRIFIED: Rape victim Hazel Behan copyright Olive Press Spain
In particular, in the vicious rape of Irish woman, Hazel Behan, on the Algarve, in 2004, a new ‘key witness’ has recently come forward, the Olive Press can reveal.
The technicality, which will merely slow down the prosecution ‘between two and five months’, came about after Brueckner’s lawyer, Friedrich Fulscher, insisted the Braunschweig court had no jurisdiction over the case, as his client’s last address was near Magdeburg, 100km away.
However, as Wolters explained, this was a deserted box factory, in the village of Neuwegersleben, that had no running water, electricity or sewage.
Under German law you cannot be registered permanently at such an address and he will appeal the decision to Braunschweig’s upper court next week.
Failing that he will argue his case at Germany’s BGH High Court, which he would be ‘confident of winning’ as it has already made similar rulings on jurisdiction cases.
He is certain the sex offender was living on and off in Braunschweig since 2013 and had various addresses, plus an official PO Box there.
He has also been tried and convicted of the rape of a 70-year-old American pensioner, in Portugal, in 2005, at Braunschweig court, for which he is serving a seven-year prison sentence.
Christian Brueckner And Maddie
Christian Brueckner and Madeliene McCann
“It is logical that he be tried for all sex crimes in Braunschweig then,” explained a police source. “However, it doesn’t matter where the case is tried, the evidence has been uncovered and compiled from the BKA police headquarters in Wiesbaden.
“That evidence is stronger than ever and, if needs be, Braunschweig will send two of their prosecution team to Magdeburg to get the court there up to speed.
“Brueckner will still face these heinous crimes for which there is lots of very strong evidence, particularly, in the case of Hazel.”
Behan, a mother-of-two, now based near Dublin, told the Olive Press today she was initially ‘horrified’ the case would be dropped, but ‘has faith’ in the German police that the prosecution will continue.
“When I was called yesterday saying the trial had been dropped and asking how I felt, I was horrified. It came out of the blue and I couldn’t understand why neither my lawyer nor the police had notified me first.
“I now understand from my solicitor in Germany this is just a way for Brueckner’s team to slow down proceedings and it is merely a technicality.
“Thankfully I am still looking forward to facing this evil man in court and seeing justice finally done,” she added. “I hope this is sooner than later.”
The further crimes for which he was formally charged last year were the violent rape of a teenager and another older woman, in Praia da Luz, between 1999 and 2006 and the groping of a 10-year-old girl on a beach in 2007, plus exposing himself to four children in 2017 in a playground.
-
thanks but its behind a paywall... could you give an account of what it says
Hopes this makes some sense ~
Precis of the Olive Press article
Jon Clarke affirms that the chief prosecutor in the case says the only issue is jurisdiction and the trial will certainly go ahead. A date has not yet been set for hearing the five cases.
The Braunschweig Landgericht which is the city's lower court has provisionally passed the case to Magdeburg.
There is no change to Madeleine’s case which is still under investigation and police sources have said is stronger than ever as a result of new evidence.
There is new information in Hazel’s case from a witness.
The residence claimed for Brueckner cannot be registered permanently at such an address for habitation under German law as it has no running water, electricity or sewage.
If necessary HCW will argue the case at Germany’s BGH High Court with confidence due to precedent.
He is confident of Brueckner’s presence in Braunschweg at various addresses including an official PO Box.
There is no problem about where the case is tried as the BKA headquarters in Wiesbaden have everything under control and the evidence is stronger than ever.
Hazel has confirmed that her German solicitor reassured her that it is a stalling action using a technicality to slow things down.
-
thanks but its behind a paywall... could you give an account of what it says
Despite global headlines to the contrary yesterday, a date had not yet been set for a hearing of the five charges that were levelled at the convicted pedophile, 46, in October last year. The chief prosecutor in the case has told the Olive Press it is 'merely an issue of jurisdiction' and the trial will 'certainly' still go ahead. Hans Christian Wolters confirmed there was 'no reason to speculate' and 'nothing has changed' after Braunschweig Landgericht, or the city's lower court, provisionally passed the case over to the region of Magdeburg.
"And in terms of the Maddie case, for now, nothing will change as a result of the decision and we are continuing to investigate it," he added. In particular, in the vicious rape of Irish woman, Hazel Behan, on the Algarve, in 2004, a new 'key witness' has recently come forward, the Olive Press can reveal. The technicality, which will merely slow down the prosecution 'between two and five months', came about after Brueckner's lawyer, Friedrich Fulscher, insisted the Braunschweig court had no jurisdiction over the case, as his client's last address was near Magdeburg, 100km away. However, as Wolters explained, this was a deserted box factory, in the village of Neuwegersleben, that had no running water, electricity or sewage.
Under German law you cannot be registered permanently at such an address and he will appeal the decision to Braunschweig's upper court next week. Failing that he will argue his case at Germany's BGH High Court, which he would be ‘confident of winning' as it has already made similar rulings on jurisdiction cases. He is certain the sex offender was living on and off in Braunschweig since 2013 and had various addresses, plus an official PO Box there. He has also been tried and convicted of the rape of a 70-year-old American pensioner, in Portugal, in 2005, at Braunschweig court, for which he is serving a seven-year prison sentence. "It is logical that he be tried for all sex crimes in Braunschweig then," explained a police source. "However, it doesn't matter where the case is tried, the evidence has been uncovered and compiled from the BKA police headquarters in Wiesbaden. “That evidence is stronger than ever and, if needs be, Braunschweig will send two of their prosecution team to Magdeburg to get the court there up to speed. “Brueckner will still face these heinous crimes for which there is lots of very strong evidence, particularly, in the case of Hazel Behan, a mother-of-two, now based near Dublin, told the Olive Press today she was initially 'horrified' the case would be dropped, but 'has faith' in the German police that
the prosecution will continue. “When I was called yesterday saying the trial had been dropped and asking how I felt, I was horrified. It came out of the blue and I couldn't understand why neither my lawyer nor the police had notified me first. “I now understand from my solicitor in Germany this is just a way for Brueckner's team
to slow down proceedings and it is merely a technicality. “Thankfully I am still looking forward to facing this evil man in court and seeing justice finally done," she added. "I hope this is sooner than later." The further crimes for which he was formally charged last year were the violent rape of a teenager and another older woman, in Praia da Luz, between 1999 and 2006 and the groping of a 10-year-old girl on a beach in 2007, plus exposing himself to four children in 2017 in a playground.
-
So all that is really happening is that Brueckner's lawyer is doing his job and the best that can be done for him is to delay the inevitable.
It is also confirmed that the BKA are in overall control of the situation very much in line with what Mr Gray has been saying for some time.
-
According to Bild, Fülscher first questioned Braunschweig's jurisdiction in September 2022, so it's not a recent move.
https://www.bild.de/news/inland/news-inland/prozess-geplatzt-kommt-der-maddie-verdaechtige-bald-frei-83639416.bild.html
It is the prosecutors, not the police who direct the gathering of evidence and it's the prosecutors who charge people. If the jurisdiction changes the evidence will be packed up by Braunschweig prosecutors and handed to the prosecutors in the new area.
-
According to Bild, Fülscher first questioned Braunschweig's jurisdiction in September 2022, so it's not a recent move.
https://www.bild.de/news/inland/news-inland/prozess-geplatzt-kommt-der-maddie-verdaechtige-bald-frei-83639416.bild.html
It is the prosecutors, not the police who direct the gathering of evidence and it's the prosecutors who charge people. If the jurisdiction changes the evidence will be packed up by Braunschweig prosecutors and handed to the prosecutors in the new area.
I think you are going from the sublime to the ridiculous here and I think if you really know little about a subject it is best not to display your ignorance so prominently.
-
I think you are going from the sublime to the ridiculous here and I think if you really know little about a subject it is best not to display your ignorance so prominently.
What is it that you think I'm getting wrong, Senior Moderator?
-
What is it that you think I'm getting wrong, Senior Moderator?
Taking your information from newspapers ... a practice which you apparently deplore.
-
What is it that you think I'm getting wrong, Senior Moderator?
Insults on a par with Barrier now, is it?
-
What is it that you think I'm getting wrong, Senior Moderator?
Pretending an expertise on German law.
-
According to Bild, Fülscher first questioned Braunschweig's jurisdiction in September 2022, so it's not a recent move.
https://www.bild.de/news/inland/news-inland/prozess-geplatzt-kommt-der-maddie-verdaechtige-bald-frei-83639416.bild.html
It is the prosecutors, not the police who direct the gathering of evidence and it's the prosecutors who charge people. If the jurisdiction changes the evidence will be packed up by Braunschweig prosecutors and handed to the prosecutors in the new area.
So you are suggesting the BKA have no detectives who have an input in what they invesigate..doesn't sound right
Wolters has said if the jurisdiction is changed two of his staff will go to the new jurisdiction and help with the prosecution
-
Insults on a par with Barrier now, is it?
You beat me to that one Eleanor. It was next on my list, but anyway I'm bored now with it all so I'll call a halt now.
-
You beat me to that one Eleanor. It was next on my list, but anyway I'm bored now with it all so I'll call a halt now.
Good idea. Hopefully.
-
What is it that you think I'm getting wrong, Senior Moderator?
From what I know of any criminal investigations the prosecution has no input into investigating or evidence gathering, deciding only if it is sufficient to lay charges to present for prosecution.
I rather think some people who are caught up in personality rather than substance and misconceptions about what Herr Walters actual role is. It was never only his show - it was always a joint effort with BKA in the lead.
I think 'spokesperson' is the word they might be looking for but very obviously haven't found yet.
-
From what I know of any criminal investigations the prosecution has no input into investigating or evidence gathering, deciding only if it is sufficient to lay charges to present for prosecution.
I rather think some people who are caught up in personality rather than substance and misconceptions about what Herr Walters actual role is. It was never only his show - it was always a joint effort with BKA in the lead.
I think 'spokesperson' is the word they might be looking for but very obviously haven't found yet.
Yes, we can't have 'spokesman' wouldn't want to assume Wolters gender identity now.
-
From what I know of any criminal investigations the prosecution has no input into investigating or evidence gathering, deciding only if it is sufficient to lay charges to present for prosecution.
I rather think some people who are caught up in personality rather than substance and misconceptions about what Herr Walters actual role is. It was never only his show - it was always a joint effort with BKA in the lead.
I think 'spokesperson' is the word they might be looking for but very obviously haven't found yet.
In Germany it varies. The police have an obligation to investigate every single crime reported. The prosecutor's office has the duty to investigate and pursue any matter in its jurisdiction as soon as it learns that a criminal offence may have been committed.
Prosecutors are authorized to undertake investigations themselves or can request the police to do so and the police are obliged to carry out such requests. Moreover, prosecutors can order witnesses and expert witnesses to testify before them.
A prosecutor is usually only involved from the very beginning in homicide or serious white-collar crime cases. Police also contact prosecutors at an early stage when significant publicity is expected or they need help gaining a judicial arrest or search warrant etc., or when the Ermittlungsrichter is to interrogate a witness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_prosecutor%27s_office_(Germany)
-
In Germany it varies. The police have an obligation to investigate every single crime reported. The prosecutor's office has the duty to investigate and pursue any matter in its jurisdiction as soon as it learns that a criminal offence may have been committed.
Prosecutors are authorized to undertake investigations themselves or can request the police to do so and the police are obliged to carry out such requests. Moreover, prosecutors can order witnesses and expert witnesses to testify before them.
A prosecutor is usually only involved from the very beginning in homicide or serious white-collar crime cases. Police also contact prosecutors at an early stage when significant publicity is expected or they need help gaining a judicial arrest or search warrant etc., or when the Ermittlungsrichter is to interrogate a witness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_prosecutor%27s_office_(Germany)
Can you envisage a scenario in which the prosecutor asks the police to investigate an individual under suspicion for a specific crime but the police investigating actually disagree that the individual committed the crime and are basically doing years of legwork under duress?
-
Can you envisage a scenario in which the prosecutor asks the police to investigate an individual under suspicion for a specific crime but the police investigating actually disagree that the individual committed the crime and are basically doing years of legwork under duress?
Does that happen?
-
According to Bild, Fülscher first questioned Braunschweig's jurisdiction in September 2022, so it's not a recent move.
https://www.bild.de/news/inland/news-inland/prozess-geplatzt-kommt-der-maddie-verdaechtige-bald-frei-83639416.bild.html
It is the prosecutors, not the police who direct the gathering of evidence and it's the prosecutors who charge people. If the jurisdiction changes the evidence will be packed up by Braunschweig prosecutors and handed to the prosecutors in the new area.
However, due to their superior amount of personnel, training and experience, the police conduct the vast majority of criminal investigations on their own. Cases are normally only turned over to the prosecutor's office when they are considered to have been solved or all leads have gone cold. A prosecutor is usually only involved from the very beginning in homicide or serious white-collar crime cases. Police also contact prosecutors at an early stage when significant publicity is expected or they need help gaining a judicial arrest or search warrant etc., or when the Ermittlungsrichter is to interrogate a witness.
-
However, due to their superior amount of personnel, training and experience, the police conduct the vast majority of criminal investigations on their own. Cases are normally only turned over to the prosecutor's office when they are considered to have been solved or all leads have gone cold. A prosecutor is usually only involved from the very beginning in homicide or serious white-collar crime cases. Police also contact prosecutors at an early stage when significant publicity is expected or they need help gaining a judicial arrest or search warrant etc., or when the Ermittlungsrichter is to interrogate a witness.
Gunit is trying very hard to show Wolters has invesigated without the help of the BKA when in reality it's clear it's a joint effort
-
Gunit is trying very hard to show Wolters has invesigated without the help of the BKA when in reality it's clear it's a joint effort
Hardly likely that Wolters would do it all on his own.
-
Does that happen?
I doubt it, however you are always at pains to mention that the German police have said nothing about the investigation- why do you think that might be significant?
-
Gunit is trying very hard to show Wolters has invesigated without the help of the BKA when in reality it's clear it's a joint effort
A lot of people seem to think the BKA are in charge, but, as you say, the investigation has involved different organisations. The Braunschweig state police, the BKA and the warehouse was investigated by yet another force in 2016. Nevertheless the Braunschweig prosecutor's office has been prominent since at least 2020, and has been responsible for all updates. They are not merely responsible for bringing charges.
-
A lot of people seem to think the BKA are in charge, but, as you say, the investigation has involved different organisations. The Braunschweig state police, the BKA and the warehouse was investigated by yet another force in 2016. Nevertheless the Braunschweig prosecutor's office has been prominent since at least 2020, and has been responsible for all updates. They are not merely responsible for bringing charges.
No one has said the BKA are in charge....you need to get your facts right
-
No one has said the BKA are in charge....you need to get your facts right
Good. We can acknowledge that the prosecutor's office were clearly involved in the investigation too.
-
Good. We can acknowledge that the prosecutor's office were clearly involved in the investigation too.
What has been said and you've tried to deny is that Wolters speaks for the whole investigation.,.and the link you posted confirms this
-
What been said and you've tried to deny is that Wolters speaks for the whole investigation.,.and the link you posted confirms this
He's not saying a lot at the moment. Maybe we'll get an exciting new update May 3rd.
-
What has been said and you've tried to deny is that Wolters speaks for the whole investigation.,.and the link you posted confirms this
Somehow you've managed to get the wrong end of the stick. At no point have I suggested that Wolters didn't speak for the whole investigation, quite the reverse. Read my posts; I am objecting to the suggestions that it has been driven purely by the BKA and that prosecutors only get involved when asked to decide whether to charge or not.
-
Somehow you've managed to get the wrong end of the stick. At no point have I suggested that Wolters didn't speak for the whole investigation, quite the reverse. Read my posts; I am objecting to the suggestions that it has been driven purely by the BKA and that prosecutors only get involved when asked to decide whether to charge or not.
The German federal system is very different from ours and I don't think any definite argument is appropriate if a proper study hasn't been conducted allowing a modicum of understanding.
Nothing is cut and dried.
I don't think Google or Bild does the trick, really.
I believe that German prosecutors have to look at both sides of the argument. But ultimately that happens in Britain too as insufficient evidence = no charges and no prosecution. So the same but different.
As far as I know neither are German prosecutors truly independent. They are expected to report back to and take instruction from the relevant political minister.
The nuances are very different between our system, the Portuguese and the German. One size doesn't fir all.
-
Somehow you've managed to get the wrong end of the stick. At no point have I suggested that Wolters didn't speak for the whole investigation, quite the reverse. Read my posts; I am objecting to the suggestions that it has been driven purely by the BKA and that prosecutors only get involved when asked to decide whether to charge or not.
Why are you so keen to make the point that the BKA haven’t said anything publicly then? So what, if HCW speaks on their behalf?
-
Why are you so keen to make the point that the BKA haven’t said anything publicly then? So what, if HCW speaks on their behalf?
Why not?
-
Why not?
Wolters is speaking for the investigation
I would think the concrete evidence was found by the police. ...not the prosecutor.
-
Why not?
Because it seems pointless and petty and nitpicking.
In any case you are wrong to say the BKA has never commented
“Christian Hoppe, of Germany’s Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA), told the country’s ZDF television channel earlier today that police have not ruled out a sexual motive for the alleged crime against Madeleine.
He added that it is possible the suspect may have broken into an apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz – where Madeleine was on holiday with her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, and her twin siblings Sean and Amelie – before kidnapping her.”
-
Braunschweig Prosecutors have appealed against the court's decision as expected;
https://www.tz.de/welt/maddie-mccann-news-staatsanwaltschaft-braunschweig-neuigkeiten-deutschland-verdaechtiger-christian-b-92268995.html
-
If CB finds what Wolters says so offensive...why doesn't he sue for defamation
-
If CB finds what Wolters says so offensive...why doesn't he sue for defamation
Brueckner's Lawyers think he doesn't have even half a chance?
-
If CB finds what Wolters says so offensive...why doesn't he sue for defamation
Because he HAS confessed to murdering Maddie. Therefore Wolters has defence in truth. But if you're still thinking Brueckner really is the murderer & that Wolters will prove as much some day, well, it shouldn't be much longer now.
-
If CB finds what Wolters says so offensive...why doesn't he sue for defamation
Because interfering with someone's right to a fair trial is more serious than damaging someone's reputation imo.
-
Yep. I reckon Brueckner's main concern right now will be trying to wriggle himself out of the charges for the crimes he actually has committed, rather than pursuing any civil actions. But I'm not very optimistic about his chances.
-
Because interfering with someone's right to a fair trial is more serious than damaging someone's reputation imo.
You underestimate Wolters. He has adifficult job to do. CB is under pressureand if hes innocent i dont see a proble with a defamation case. if hes guilty he wouldnt dare. Wolters has answerred the fair trial question so hes comfortable with what hes doing
-
You underestimate Wolters. He has adifficult job to do. CB is under pressureand if hes innocent i dont see a proble with a defamation case. if hes guilty he wouldnt dare. Wolters has answerred the fair trial question so hes comfortable with what hes doing
Brueckner isn't suing Wolters, & that must be because he really did murder Maddie. I see your point, yes. That's me sold. Now there's no reason whatsoever not to believe Wolters. For shame that I ever doubted him.
-
You underestimate Wolters. He has adifficult job to do. CB is under pressureand if hes innocent i dont see a proble with a defamation case. if hes guilty he wouldnt dare. Wolters has answerred the fair trial question so hes comfortable with what hes doing
How do you think Wolters has answered the fair trial question?
-
How do you think Wolters has answered the fair trial question?
Because there isn't going to be any trial?
-
How do you think Wolters has answered the fair trial question?
I don't think anything... Wolters was asked if CB could get a fair trial.when Wolters has claimed he believes he's 100% guilty..Wolters replied he was confident he would
-
Because interfering with someone's right to a fair trial is more serious than damaging someone's reputation imo.
Do excuse me for permitting myself a wry smile on reading that.
-
Do excuse me for permitting myself a wry smile on reading that.
I nearly died laughing.
-
I don't think anything... Wolters was asked if CB could get a fair trial.when Wolters has claimed he believes he's 100% guilty..Wolters replied he was confident he would
When and to whom?
-
When and to whom?
Do you mean you don't know
-
Do you mean you don't know
Just provide your evidence.
-
Just provide your evidence.
Are you not aware
-
Are you not aware
Are you having fun? You are simply making yourself look silly imo.
-
Are you having fun? You are simply making yourself look silly imo.
Did you not listen to the Mark S interview of Wolters
-
Are you having fun? You are simply making yourself look silly imo.
I find it tedious when cites are demanded for issues well in the public domain. Anyone doing so are probably the silly ones imo,
-
I find it tedious when cites are demanded for issues well in the public domain. Anyone doing so are probably the silly ones imo,
You know what Wolters said, did you? Do tell...
-
You know what Wolters said, did you? Do tell...
Wolters doesn't have much of anything to say for himself at the moment. He's far too busy building the case against the murderer. This time next year perhaps.
-
You know what Wolters said, did you? Do tell...
Have you listened to the Mark S podcast featuring Wolters
-
Yes G. Don't you remember what Wolters said during some obscure podcast from three years ago?
-
Yes G. Don't you remember what Wolters said during some obscure podcast from three years ago?
It seems like those bragging about their knowledge don't remember either.
-
Rock On, Tommy.
-
Rock On, Tommy.
Sigh ☹
-
It seems like those bragging about their knowledge don't remember either.
Wolters has had much to say in the last 3 years. Perhaps those who cling to his every word could start a thread & list everything he has said. It could prove interesting. Not to the McCanns though. They don't much care for anything Wolters has to say.
-
An appeal is pending regarding the jurisdiction question.
As far as I can see the only evidence there is for Brueckner's location in Germany is his word. It is going to be interesting to see how it all eventually pans out.
In the meantime the investigation into Madeleine's case continues
Dispute over jurisdiction: Braunschweig public prosecutor's office lodges a complaint
In the question of whether the Braunschweig judiciary is responsible for the suspect Christian B. and thus also for the Maddie case, the public prosecutor's office has meanwhile officially filed an appeal against the decision of the Braunschweig Regional Court to reject a currently filed charge against the now 46-year-old.
https://www.braunschweiger-zeitung.de/braunschweig/article238476949/Fall-Maddie-Staatsanwaltschaft-Braunschweig-bestaetigt-neue-Suche.html
-
At present CB is trying to delay being tried for 3 rapes and two paedo offences. He can't avoid the trial...only delay it
-
At present CB is trying to delay being tried for 3 rapes and two paedo offences. He can't avoid the trial...only delay it
Perhaps he hopes to be released before it happens. And then he can disappear again.
-
He has no chance of being released with these charges pending..he would be remandd in custody
-
He has no chance of being released with these charges pending..he would be remandd in custody
On what Charge? Although I do hope so.
-
At present CB is trying to delay being tried for 3 rapes and two paedo offences. He can't avoid the trial...only delay it
His offenses and his alleged offenses are very serious. Yet there are those who seem quite pleased that the German court has listened to his lawyer's plea about his residency based on CB's word and at the expense of delaying his appearance in court.
Considering his latest indictments go back as far as 2004 further delay is nothing to be pleased about.
-
Perhaps he hopes to be released before it happens. And then he can disappear again.
CB is due to be released in a couple of years so I think that is the object of the exercise.
But thinking back to his parlous state as a penniless vagrant when he was arrested in Italy maybe he was on the run not only from the German police but from a falling out amongst thieves.
-
CB is due to be released in a couple of years so I think that is the object of the exercise.
But thinking back to his parlous state as a penniless vagrant when he was arrested in Italy maybe he was on the run not only from the German police but from a falling out amongst thieves.
Good thinking, Brie.
Maybe he was hiding in Italy from fear of a master crook who he had previous links to? Did he have any previous links to Italy?
-
Good thinking, Brie.
Maybe he was hiding in Italy from fear of a master crook who he had previous links to? Did he have any previous links to Italy?
I've not seen much about his time in Italy, Sadie. If he hadn't had to seek official assistance for replacement papers we would probably never have known anything about him ending up there. At the time the Italian police didn't seem to have any previous on him.
The Shengen zone covers a huge area and Brueckner was able to cross borders at will. For the likes of him an absolutely ideal situation with his comings and goings being known to none but himself.
He claimed to have travelled by train to Italy via Switzerland. I find that absolutely bizarre given the number of vehicles to which he had access and/or his alleged skill set in lifting that which doesn't belong to him to be able to acquire one.
I don't think anyone will ever be able to find out for sure how Brueckner ended up as an apparent down and out in Italy, but it is a weird part of his story which kept him off the streets for some time.
"Timeline" is a word which features prominently in Madeleine's case. No-one will ever know what Brueckner's was.
-
Re: German court rules prosecutor no jurisdiction in Madeleine McCann case.
I thought everyone knew this? German tax payers money now being wasted on something which doesn't concern them. if they have information they should pass it on to Portugal.
If CB committed a crime with MBM in Germany that would be a whole different ball game.
-
Re: German court rules prosecutor no jurisdiction in Madeleine McCann case.
I thought everyone knew this? German tax payers money now being wasted on something which doesn't concern them. if they have information they should pass it on to Portugal.
If CB committed a crime with MBM in Germany that would be a whole different ball game.
do you have a link?
-
do you have a link?
For what?
German court rules (blah blah) erm who pays for German courts...
IF a German citizen breaks the law in another country THEY NEED hard evidence.
-
For what?
German court rules (blah blah) erm who pays for German courts...
IF a German citizen breaks the law in another country THEY NEED hard evidence.
it’s ok, I found it