The Joana Cipriano case revisited.

[sadie]

I'm not sure where  to look for evidence.

Re the Leonor issue: I couldn't find anything apart from a CdaM article stating that Leonor had been seen late at night after her interrogation, pending her arraignment the following morning. I did find a vague reference to blood on a seat, from memory in one of the judgements, but which didn't appear to have been investigated, apart from having been attriuted to  "menstrual blood". I could hunt back to find where I already pointed that out, but it would take time. That explanation could be true, or might  not be. Even if it is, the question that it raised for me was what her detention conditions over that interrogation period actually were. It's  not clear for how much time  she had a lawyer present, aside from signing on the dotted line.

Re the João issue: in an in-depth interview with Leandro (way before the Madeleine case) cf the sub-forum, Leandro found his behaviour odd that day (Leandro was present to provide the keys to the house). That could be because João was facing up to the enormity of what he had done, or it could equally be because he'd been threatened, beaten, or whatever, to coerce a confession. There's no way of knowing from what I've been able to find in what's readily online.

In this case, the case files aren't online, only the judgements and - largely -  CdaM tabloid articles to go on.

As I've mentioned numerous times before (on the  sub-forum), I've come across assertions in the judgements that left me wondering whether I was on a different planet. For example, unless I've misunderstood, it could be taken as fact that as most kids return home, she therefore did as well.

And there was absolutely no proof that Joana did return home, but a strange camper van with a man in it that had been there a couple of days.  This vanished as Joana did.   According to reports it was found abandoned in nearby Praia de Luz, which was only 7 miles away.

[slartibartfast]

And there was absolutely no proof that Joana did return home, but a strange camper van with a man in it that had been there a couple of days.  This vanished as Joana did.   According to reports it was found abandoned in nearby Praia de Luz, which was only 7 miles away.

Please provide cites.

[sadie]

Please provide cites.

Cites:

Not in any particular order and not honed as i would have preferred for posting.  I just haven't the energy


1)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8393.msg418844#msg418844
Three webpages I have mentioned in the above post supporting Leonor and Joana ... and NONE WILL OPEN



2)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9278.msg457613#msg457613
The above post already points out that I have noticed everything about the white and brown camper-van has been wiped, between posts 1) and 2)

 

3)   Re: Portuguese judicial secrecy law and its impact on the Madeleine case.
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2017, 05:41:37 PM » Posted by SIL
•   Quote
Quote from: sadie on August 03, 2017, 04:36:26 PM

In the past 5 years I have only been in the Algarve for less than a fortnight total but I have been there twice!

BTW, the little brown camper van that was noticed in Figueira before Joana vanished, also vanished and was found dumped in Praia de Luz.


Of course everyone was aware of what happened in the Joana Cipriano case .... and how her mother was tortured to near blindness.

SIL

Nope to part I have bolded.  I had never heard of it until posters repeatedly dragged it onto this forum rather than the JC forum.


And believe it or not, not everyone has heard of the Madeleine McCann case.

We have holidayed in Portugal many a time, both before and after Madeleine's disappearance, but until we actually moved here, I could not have told you where Luz (Lagos) or Luz (Tavira) are.  And since I have no interest in the Cipriano case, I don't know where Figueira is.

Strangely my original actual post, as in the quote above, has been wiped.  Why is that ?



4)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1229.msg55566#msg55566



5)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg222976#msg222976. 
Brietta quoting the family of Joana Cipriano, mentioning the camper van and its German registration.  The man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old.  The van was found on farmland at Praia da Luz



6)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg98254#msg98254



Six cites there, slarti, none of which were challenged the veracity of the camper-van, until you came along !


And why were they never challenged?  Because websites opened then that CONFIRMED what I WAS POSTING ... and people had read them


There are various excuses for why these websites no longer open, but I find it sinister. 


Contrary to transparency and Justice.


By now you should know that I tell the truth.  Twisting and lying is not for me.

[slartibartfast]

Cites:

Not in any particular order and not honed as i would have preferred for posting.  I just haven't the energy


1)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8393.msg418844#msg418844
Three webpages I have mentioned in the above post supporting Leonor and Joana ... and NONE WILL OPEN



2)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9278.msg457613#msg457613
The above post already points out that I have noticed everything about the white and brown camper-van has been wiped, between posts 1) and 2)

 

3)   Re: Portuguese judicial secrecy law and its impact on the Madeleine case.
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2017, 05:41:37 PM » Posted by SIL
•   Quote
Quote from: sadie on August 03, 2017, 04:36:26 PM
SIL
Strangely my original actual post, as in the quote above, has been wiped.  Why is that ?



4)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1229.msg55566#msg55566



5)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6044.msg222976#msg222976. 
Brietta quoting the family of Joana Cipriano, mentioning the camper van and its German registration.  The man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old.  The van was found on farmland at Praia da Luz



6)   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2853.msg98254#msg98254



Six cites there, slarti, none of which were challenged the veracity of the camper-van, until you came along !


And why were they never challenged?  Because websites opened then that CONFIRMED what I WAS POSTING ... and people had read them


There are various excuses for why these websites no longer open, but I find it sinister. 


Contrary to transparency and Justice.


By now you should know that I tell the truth.  Twisting and lying is not for me.

So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.

[misty]

So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.

2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008

ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.

The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church

On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.

The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.

[Sunny]

2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008

ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.

The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church

On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.

The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.

Interesting misty.  Do you have an actual link to the story?

[misty]

Interesting misty.  Do you have an actual link to the story?

The original no longer seems to be online. I copied it from a post here:- https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=178077&page=11

[Brietta]

So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.

Quite often there is nothing left of the original article as you yourself noted when explaining the situation to Sadie ...

Quote
Your understanding of how the internet works is lacking. It is a volatile environment, when a site has a tidy up they will remove pages and areas that have not been accessed for a while or are in their minds no longer required. Sites are removed on a regular basis, people have to pay for web hosting and will not continue to do so just for the benefit of other users.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7275.msg498452#msg498452

[Brietta]

The original no longer seems to be online. I copied it from a post here:- https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=178077&page=11

There is a myriad of information which has vanished from the internet to be preserved either in archives of some kind or copied from the original to blogs much as "Gerry McCann's Blog" was erased by the owner but preserved for posterity by Pamalam.

Newspaper and News Channels also erase a lot ... we are all familiar with 401 etc.

[sadie]

So you have no cites, just links to where you and your colleagues mention this camper van.

I have taken a lot of time and sorted out 6 samples of where the camper-van was mentioned in posts in various places on this forum.  No-one ever questioned their veracity at the various times, because they had seen a number of articles  mentioning the camper van near Joanas home.  And they knew what i was saying had been well reported.  Same articles, now, in a sinister way IMO deleted.

Anyway, Misty bless her, has found the same suitable cite for you, number 5 on my list, and she managed to find the source.  Thank you misty.

[Angelo222]

There is a myriad of information which has vanished from the internet to be preserved either in archives of some kind or copied from the original to blogs much as "Gerry McCann's Blog" was erased by the owner but preserved for posterity by Pamalam.

Newspaper and News Channels also erase a lot ... we are all familiar with 401 etc.

The internet isn't as reliable as it was made out to be by all accounts.  It's a bit like rewriting history imo.

[slartibartfast]

2:48pm UK, Monday May 12, 2008

ALEX WATTS, SKY NEWS ONLINE.

The family of a girl who vanished just seven miles from the Portuguese resort where Madeleine McCann disappeared are convinced the cases are connected. Joana was last seen near church

On the day of Madeleine's fifth birthday, Joana Cipriano's relatives have urged detectives to investigate links between the two disappearances - saying there are too many disturbing similarities for the evidence to be ignored.
Joana, eight, was sent to buy some groceries from a village store near her home in Figueira, at around 8pm on September 12, 2004. She bought a tin of tuna and some milk from the Ofelia store, and was last seen by a neighbour walking back near the village church, some 200 yards from her home. Joana never returned and, like the McCanns, her mother Leonor mounted a campaign to find her. Like them, she and her brother Joao became suspects.

The case, which ended with the pair being sentenced to 21 years, made Portuguese legal history - it was the first murder trial where a body was never found. Police officers are due to go on trial later this year for allegedly beating and torturing Leonor to make her confess. Joana's relatives told Sky News Online the pair are innocent and believe whoever took the girl is also behind Madeleine's disappearance, seven miles away in Praia da Luz. The family, who do not want to be named, said: "This sort of thing doesn't happen in Portugal - child abductions are very rare. Whoever took Joana took Madeleine too, the distance is too small. And the police ignored everything we told them, they just wanted to solve the case quickly. They didn't look at any of the things we told them about." They said the most crucial bit of evidence was a white and brown camper van, parked near Joana's home in the days before she was abducted.
The vehicle, with German number plates, disappeared around the time she vanished. They added: "There was a man living in there, but he hardly left the van. A week later the van was found abandoned in farmland in Praia da Luz. We told the police to investigate it, but they didn't listen to us." She said the man had short, curly brown hair and was about 40 years old. A suspect in the Madeleine case, spotted acting suspiciously near the apartment where she vanished on May 3 last year, was described as between 35 and 40, with long, straggly hair.

Yes, I found that...

“Joana's relatives told Sky News Online .... The family, who do not want to be named”

[Brietta]

Yes, I found that...

“Joana's relatives told Sky News Online .... The family, who do not want to be named”

Don't know about you ... but I have many relatives ... if any spoke to the press and didn't wish their name mentioned ... how would I or anyone else know who that anonymous person might be?

I don't think it is quite as risible as you seem to think.

I imagine that like me, the Ciprianos had an extended family not all of whom even share the same family name.

[slartibartfast]

Don't know about you ... but I have many relatives ... if any spoke to the press and didn't wish their name mentioned ... how would I or anyone else know who that anonymous person might be?

I don't think it is quite as risible as you seem to think.

I imagine that like me, the Ciprianos had an extended family not all of whom even share the same family name.

You missed the point, the family of the defendant originated the story of the Camper Van.

[sadie]

Yes, I found that...

“Joana's relatives told Sky News Online .... The family, who do not want to be named”

Various reports were in a number of places before they were wiped.  And many on here will have seen them.
The family have every right to report what they saw, and to keep their names out of the papers.
 
They may not have the same surname as Cipriano or Guereira ( Joanas blood fathers name, IIRC) or Silva .... and prefer not to be associated in the publics eye with the dreadful things, not proven, pumped out about their relatives Leonor and Joao Cipriano.

Being aware of the way that the local PJ operate, they probably would be in fear of the Police knowing that they had released the facts about the van.

How do you think Amaral and Cristovao would have reacted to having their erm..carefully sorted theory undermined ?