Author Topic: Gunfire-Graffiti UK  (Read 4544 times)

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Offline Myster

Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« on: January 13, 2021, 08:59:15 AM »
by Andrew Rigsby. An updated version, worth another read on Jem's 60th...

http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline adam

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2021, 01:16:34 PM »
Never considered Bamber may have had one or two fully loaded cartridges with him. Together with the fully loaded rifle. Possible.

He may have been going for an 11 shot massacre. If not he would have expected to immobilise everyone with his first 11 shots. Giving him time to go downstairs.

Once Nevill headed downstairs, he had the option of reloading upstairs. However chose to fight Nevill instead.

Offline Myster

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 06:17:05 AM »
Never considered Bamber may have had one or two fully loaded cartridges with him. Together with the fully loaded rifle. Possible.

He may have been going for an 11 shot massacre. If not he would have expected to immobilise everyone with his first 11 shots. Giving him time to go downstairs.

Once Nevill headed downstairs, he had the option of reloading upstairs. However chose to fight Nevill instead.
That's one of Andrew Rigsby's points which is debatable, and I doubt whether a second magazine was used. By the time EP had eventually got their act together, isn't it possible they interviewed Radcliffe's again to see if father or son were sold an extra one later than their first purchase of rifle, magazine and scope?  Or did EP enquire at other local gunsmiths?  Before the internet age, the only other way to obtain another one was privately, in the classifieds of shooting or farming periodicals say, or bought/borrowed from someone whom he knew.  If any of those read about the murders and Bamber's involvment, would they have contacted EP with this info?

Bamber's original plan, imo, was to eliminate all with one full magazine, two bullets to each of his victims' heads whilst they slept, but his parents were already awake, up and aware, which made them moving targets and necessitated him taking drastic action by firing off the Anschutz willy-nilly in an attempt to stop their efforts to resist or escape the onslaught.  Hence the haphazard nature of their wounds, whereas those of Sheila and the twins were accurately placed.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 06:29:56 AM by Myster »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline adam

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 06:51:01 PM »
His two options were an 11 shot massacre, or a multi shot massacre.

The 11 shot massacre being his best option. He could kill everyone while they slept. Then moved Nevill onto the bedroom floor & taken the bedroom phone off the hook. As if Nevill was up & had phoned him.

Offline Truth SKR1

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2021, 12:05:09 PM »
He may have hoped 11 shots, but once that fails it's just reacting to events, there is no plan B. Is it possible Bamber started with one shot each to the head of Nicholas and Daniel and perhaps hearing movement in Nevill and June's room entered there next by necessity, inflicting 5 shots on June and 4 on Nevill. Bamber then having to go downstairs to reload and was followed and surprised by a wounded Nevill approaching him from behind. This perhaps more likely than Jeremy following Nevill downstairs, although that clearly possible? I think the bullet casings could support these scenarios. Otherwise, if he entered his parents bedroom first then we have to assume Jeremy only fired 9 times upstairs and fired two further at his father in the kitchen before having to reload? I think it more likely that Bamber had run out of bullets upstairs. Mainly because it doesn't make sense for him not to further disable his wounded father with shots as he was on the move downstairs? June was clearly massively incapacitated early in the rampage.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 12:22:57 PM by Truth SKR1 »

Offline adam

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2021, 07:47:14 PM »
Julie said Bamber said he shot the twins first.

One head shot each will kill two out of the 5 targets. The shots would be impossible to hear by the other 3 people sleeping in other rooms.

Suspect June & Nevill were still sleeping. Bamber opened fire on June, which resulted in Nevill starting to wake & get out of bed. Resulting in Bamber only managing 2 head shots into Nevill prior to 2 torso shots.

Believe Nevill got past Bamber and headed downstairs.

Possible he left an alive but wounded Nevill upstairs to go downstairs to reload. But wouldn't an injured Nevill save his energy and confront Bamber upon his return upstairs?


Offline Truth SKR1

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2021, 08:42:06 PM »
Can't see the logic of Nevill waiting upstairs for Bamber to return and he didn't do that. Waking Sheila and getting her to hide or sneak out etc would also appear logical in hindsight but I've no doubt despite being heavily wounded he perceives his only hope for his family was somehow overpowering Jeremy. Nevill would sleep heavier than June I would speculate that June (a light sleeper) would have woken to someone creeping upstairs or the twins gunfire and perhaps woke Nevill causing him to get a slight head start on moving out of bed as Jeremy burst in. I still favour Jeremy going downstairs to reload ahead of Nevill, rather than Nevill heading downstairs first.

Offline adam

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 02:29:07 AM »
If Nevill was wounded but still alive upstairs & Bamber out of bullets, Bamber may have attacked him upstairs, to knock him out. He had a weapon available - the rifle & would now be hyped up.

Bamber may have heard Nevill going downstairs, so would be ready. Nevill's injuries show the attack was very one sided, Nevill just defending himself.

Bamber reloading downstairs would only take a few seconds if he had a fully loaded cartridge downstairs. As suggested in the article.

Bamber could reach June & Nevill from June's side of the bed. His 9 shots were probably from there. Bamber being in that position meant there was a pathway for Nevill through the bedroom door as Bamber was not blocking it.




Offline Truth SKR1

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 07:25:00 AM »
Some good points raised there supporting that scenario. But to be blunt I don't believe he brought a full magazine to the farm and took it away with him. I don't think he even owned or had access to one, he may have considered the risk of being caught with it as too big. Also, if you're taking an empty cartridge home why not take the silencer? Furthermore, if he had an additional magazine why leave it downstairs, that isn't logical. The scenario regarding Nevill depends on how incapacitated he was by the four shots you described. Was he able to maintain forward motion continuosly despite these shots? If he was he may have got downstairs first. Difficult to say, he would have been stunned or stopped at some point, I expect. I wouldn't expect Nevill to have left the room while Jeremy was still firing at his wife. Another factor, how long does it take to discharge 9 shots with a semi-automatic? As you suggest, if Nevill was going downstairs first you would expect evidence of a struggle in the upper hallway, stairwell or lower hallway. There isn't any evidence of that, although there is Nevill's blood on the wall in the downstairs hallway. The struggle in the kitchen suggests to me Nevill slightly surprising Jeremy while he was reloading individual bullets not a magazine. Perhaps he reloaded 4 at this point which he used on Nevill in the kitchen before needing to reload again. If Jeremy had followed Nevill downstairs why did he not attack him from behind, pushing him downstairs for instance could've rendered serious damage. And remember Nevill never reached the phone or too close to any exiting door, so if Jeremy was behind him it wasn't very far.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 12:15:02 PM by Truth SKR1 »

Offline The General

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 03:45:13 PM »
He may have hoped 11 shots, but once that fails it's just reacting to events, there is no plan B. Is it possible Bamber started with one shot each to the head of Nicholas and Daniel and perhaps hearing movement in Nevill and June's room entered there next by necessity, inflicting 5 shots on June and 4 on Nevill. Bamber then having to go downstairs to reload and was followed and surprised by a wounded Nevill approaching him from behind. This perhaps more likely than Jeremy following Nevill downstairs, although that clearly possible? I think the bullet casings could support these scenarios. Otherwise, if he entered his parents bedroom first then we have to assume Jeremy only fired 9 times upstairs and fired two further at his father in the kitchen before having to reload? I think it more likely that Bamber had run out of bullets upstairs. Mainly because it doesn't make sense for him not to further disable his wounded father with shots as he was on the move downstairs? June was clearly massively incapacitated early in the rampage.
Wouldn't Nevill have armed himself with something before following JB downstairs?
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Offline adam

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2021, 03:54:54 PM »
Suppose it's all about those 20 seconds while Nevill gets his 4 shots while simultaneously getting out of bed. 

Does Nevill physically attack Bamber upstairs or vice versa when Bamber runs out of bullets.

Does Bamber run downstairs to re load, knowing Nevill is alive upstairs &  now knows what is happening. and will be a moving, resisting target upon his return.

Is Nevill aware what weapon Bamber is using & whether he has run out of bullets. A shot gun or the rifle still having bullets will kill him if he receives more shots, so his survival instint is to run.

Don't believe Bamber would attack Nevill on the stairs. It's too ackward. Bamber was trying to avoid getting injured. He may not have caught up with him on the stairs anyway.

Nevill's only resistance in the kitchen was wrestling for the rifle. Prior to sufferring his terrible injuries from being hit with the rifle.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 03:57:56 PM by adam »

Offline Truth SKR1

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2021, 03:57:33 PM »
Well, one of his arms was completely incapacitated and he'd been shot in the head twice. Who knows if he tried to pick something up or how he planned to survive downstairs. I assume he knew it was Jeremy and he had witnessed him run out of bullets, so time was of the essence. Do you have a theory about who may have gone downstairs first or the order of the shots, General?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 04:09:55 PM by Truth SKR1 »

Offline Truth SKR1

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2021, 04:08:02 PM »
Good point, Adam, about Nevill perhaps being physically beaten upstairs. I've always considered the non bullet wounds to have been inflicted in the kitchen but we don't know that. His instincts would be to seize Jeremy upstairs or down, I believe, not merely to flee when his whole family was in mortal danger. If Nevill was ahead of him Jeremy would've been desperate to stop him getting to the phone or doors by any means. But the scrapes on the AGA mantelpiece suggest to me Nevill approached Jeremy for possession of the gun after following him down whether before, during or after reloading. If Nevill had got into the kitchen first his destination would be phone, door or gun cupboard and the evidence suggests he didn't reach these places.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 04:15:00 PM by Truth SKR1 »

Offline The General

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2021, 10:21:07 AM »
Well, one of his arms was completely incapacitated and he'd been shot in the head twice. Who knows if he tried to pick something up or how he planned to survive downstairs. I assume he knew it was Jeremy and he had witnessed him run out of bullets, so time was of the essence. Do you have a theory about who may have gone downstairs first or the order of the shots, General?
No, not really. Well, yes, but only half-baked. I don't see anyone going down after him totally unarmed, apart from maybe Nevill knew everyone was dead, so tried to scupper his plan as a final, dying act of defiance. He may have tried to arm himself, but there was nothing to hand, but could explain why he was found by the fireplace - this may have been the only place where he may have found a weapon, with Jeremy stood between him and the rest of the kitchen.
This would also suggest that Jeremy was manually re-loading, as opposed to simply loading a new mag.
The 2nd Youngest Member of the Forum

Offline Truth SKR1

Re: Gunfire-Graffiti UK
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2021, 12:29:41 PM »
Agree regarding the manual loading. So do you think that Nevill went downstairs to flee/phone or arm himself before the assailant? The scrape marks on the AGA suggest to me he did engage him physically, and that Nevill approached him, because he felt he had to take action knowing that at least his wife was fighting for her life.