The beating and conviction of Leonor Cipriano

[C.Edwards]

CEdwards, a Portuguese court (no less) found that Cipriano WAS tortured.  I don't know better than them - I AGREE with them!

Is this the finding based on the pictures printed in the paper from years before?  Not from physical examination?

Or is it another finding that one would say was somewhat more plausible scientifically?

[C.Edwards]

In my opinion if force has been proven to have been used on a suspect in custody then that calls into question the whole way in which the investigation was carried out.  It doesn't matter if the suspect is under arrest for a speeding offence or for eating their own child, it is essential that the whole process of gathering info, charging a suspect and the subsequent trial is carried out lawfully and correctly.  Who could possibly disagree with this CEdwards?

I have read several times this morning (on various sites) that Ciprianos injuries were inflicted on her by fellow inmates... this wasn't checked, was it?

[C.Edwards]

In my opinion if force has been proven to have been used on a suspect in custody then that calls into question the whole way in which the investigation was carried out.  It doesn't matter if the suspect is under arrest for a speeding offence or for eating their own child, it is essential that the whole process of gathering info, charging a suspect and the subsequent trial is carried out lawfully and correctly.  Who could possibly disagree with this CEdwards?

I have read several times this morning (on various sites) that Ciprianos injuries were inflicted on her by fellow inmates... this wasn't checked, was it?

Any evidence to back up these claims?  Are you saying that Anti McCann blogs and forums know better than the Portuguese Legal Process?  You do seem to be behaving in exactly the same way as you have just been chastising the "Pros" for behaving, ie: knowing better than the PT courts.  Interesting isn't it?

No, I'm not. I'm remaining open-minded and willing to find out more.  I'm saying that I'm happy to accept that the courts found torture was committed, but it seems the courts made an "interesting decision" if the one you're referring to was based on the pictures of unqualified origin.

[Carana]

I'd be interested in reading the forensic report of the original case, if anyone knows where to find it.

[sadie]

C.Edwards=

No, I'm not. I'm remaining open-minded and willing to find out more.  I'm saying that I'm happy to accept that the courts found torture was committed, but it seems the courts made an "interesting decision" if the one you're referring to was based on the pictures of unqualified origin.

Why are you altering the facts?   

Independent experts examined the evidence anf found that the bruises were not caused by falling down stairs, but were indicative of torture as described by Leonor.  As I feel sure you are aware, C Edwards, this expert evidence was presented in Court.

And accepted as FAct by the court.

[C.Edwards]

Why are you altering the facts?   

Independent experts examined the evidence anf found that the bruises werre not caused by falling down stairs, but were indicative of torture as described by Leonor.  As I feel sure you are aware, C Edwards, this expert evidence was presented in Court.

In the absence of proof of this claim of yours Sadie, I'm calling your statement unverified guff. Find some evidence to back up your claims and I'll reconsider.

[C.Edwards]

Why are you altering the facts?   

Independent experts examined the evidence anf found that the bruises werre not caused by falling down stairs, but were indicative of torture as described by Leonor.  As I feel sure you are aware, C Edwards, this expert evidence was presented in Court.

In the absence of proof of this claim of yours Sadie, I'm calling your statement unverified guff. Find some evidence to back up your claims and I'll reconsider.

You now seem to be denying that evidence supporting Cipriano's claims from independent experts was presented in court during the trial of the officers accused of beating her.  This is quite extraordinary!

I'm denying nothing, I'm asking for information so that I may educate myself. You should try it sometime!

If your "independent expert" is Irene Posalaky, the prison doctor, then a) she's hardly independent and b) she has said herself that she's no expert in medicinal forensics!  She's a flipping GP.  Also, as pointed out earlier, Cipriano did NOT fall down the stairs and that wasn't how it was reported.

[debunker]

I have not got involved in this case, but as a nurse, having seen those photographs there is no way those injuries were received "falling down stairs".

Do some research. This is a "myth".  The incident was not falling down some stairs.  Boo ya!

Knee jerk response because you don't like my position.

What I am saying is exactly that- injuries NOT received from falling down stairs.

[C.Edwards]

I have not got involved in this case, but as a nurse, having seen those photographs there is no way those injuries were received "falling down stairs".

Do some research. This is a "myth".  The incident was not falling down some stairs.  Boo ya!

Knee jerk response because you don't like my position.

What I am saying is exactly that- injuries NOT received from falling down stairs.

My point is that the myth is that "falling down the stairs" was the excuse. That is not what was reported by the officers.

[debunker]

The child murderess cipriano wasn't convicted on the strength of a confession alone was she  ?

I seem to remember reading the most horrific details of the little girl's finger nails being  left in the front door  (  as she had clung onto it while being dragged back into the house  )   

Cipriano's confession was given the day before the alleged beating and in the presence of her lawyer.

Cite?

@Faithlily

REpeat. Cite?

[sadie]

My point is that the myth is that "falling down the stairs" was the excuse. That is not what was reported by the officers.

NOTE:  This is written from memory BUT with integrity


The PJ delivered Leonor back to the jail in this beaten up state .  They told the Prison Governor, Dr Ana, that Leonor had tried to commit suicide and had thrown herself down stairs.  In their presence  Leonor did not disagree.  Fear.

They then exerted pressure on Dr Ana, to say that Leonor had been roughed up by the prisoners in the jail and share the blame for the bruises

The moment they had gone, Leonor poured it all out to Dr Ana.  Dr Ana realised the seriousness of the situation and arranged for leonor to see a doctor and to have photograpks taken.

There are reports that Leonor was blinded for a month because of the blood pouring down behind her eyes (cant remember the medical term)

What a brave woman Dr Ana is- standing up to the pressure from the PJ.  What a brave woman Leonor is too.


Incidentally the PJ took Leonor very early in the morning without Dr Ana's knowledge and they interrogated her and tortured her for long hours.  Until the pain became unbearable, Leonor refused to put her name to the confession.  Joao was not so strong.  He gave way much quicker. 

Leandro was also purportedly brutalised by Amaral himself.  Held by two officers whilst Amaral allegedly punched him in the stomach to make him sign a phony witness statement for the courts. 

This phony statement was the only "evidence" presented in Court, since rescinded.  Oh, I forgot, Leonor and Joaos tortured out "evidence" was used against them, but that is phony too.


There was NO EVIDENCE in that Court, just stories ... spectacular lies .. including illicit sex, made up cutting up of her daughter, keeping Joanas body in the fridge to feed to their pigs (with the obvious implications that they were going to eat their daughter/niece)  What heinous people could spread such stories without any foundation?

Oh and Cristavao (and Amaral?) made a mighty sum out of his book about this phony case.  Cristovao is up on 7 criminal charges atm.  Seems he had files on mases of important people.  what for?... to enable him to manipulkate them ... blackmail them ... or what?   Can anyone think of another reason for having files on people?


Had Kate answered those questions which were NOT designed to find Madeleine, but rather to entrap her, then would a lurid best seller would have appeared?  The ground work was already in place with tales of swingers (illicit sex), boozing, implications that Kate was uncaring, fridges etc.  Once Kate had been charged, would the salacious lies have increased?


Recipe for a best seller?


Only wondering  >@@(*&)

[gavdalf]

Im confused, what is the latest with regards to this woman, has she or has she not just had another 7months added to her sentence for lying in court about this, or am I missing something?

[C.Edwards]

Note from C. Edwards: I have snipped out loads of fluffy nonsense for brevity...

Recipe for a best seller?


Only wondering  >@@(*&)

In among your flowery proselytising you have failed to reveal your sources for this Barbara Cartland-esque writing.  Please feel free to enlighten me as to what you got from where and which bits are your own personal opinion.

I'm sure debunker was about to post exactly the same thing as me as he wouldn't want to see uncited diatribes being propogated. ;-)

[sadie]

PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE MY QUOTES.  NOWHERE DO I SAy FLUFFY NONSENSE>

C EDWARDS you should be banned for changing others quotes!

[C.Edwards]

PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE MY QUOTES.  NOWHERE DO I SAy FLUFFY NONSENSE>

C EDWARDS you should be banned for changing others quotes!

Oh for god's sake stop being such a drama queen.  It was obvious that I cut it out for brevity. I've now modified my post to make it clear.

Try actually answering the point instead of being outraged.