Leonor Cipriano, her confession and subsequent silence in the killing of her daughter Joana.

[John]

John
With all due respect had this been a matter for the UK authorities, given their illiterate status, I've no doubt the Ciprianos would not only had legal representation from the start but allocated Appropriate Adults as well.  One cannot help wondering what would have been the outcome if that had happened.

Are you suggesting they had 'learning difficulties' to the extent they were unfit adults?

[Carana]

Are you suggesting they had 'learning difficulties' to the extent they were unfit adults?

I don't think that it is a case of that, John.

Who with 3-4 years of education and pro bono lawyers with limited time could have adequately defended them? It really wouldn't take a top-notch lawyer to have pointed out even the basics of how flimsy this case was.

As I've said umpteen times, if they are guilty then they are where they should be. My issue is that I'm not convinced that they are guilty - in which case, someone else is, who may still be free.

[John]

I don't think that it is a case of that, John.

Who with 3-4 years of education and pro bono lawyers with limited time could have adequately defended them? It really wouldn't take a top-notch lawyer to have pointed out even the basics of how flimsy this case was.

As I've said umpteen times, if they are guilty then they are where they should be. My issue is that I'm not convinced that they are guilty - in which case, someone else is, who may still be free.

They have admitted their guilt on several occasions Carana, that's good enough for me.

[sadie]

They have admitted their guilt on several occasions Carana, that's good enough for me.

But John they have been tortured.  That alters the whole equation.

A tortured person does as s/he is told.

[John]

But John they have been tortured.  That alters the whole equation.

A tortured person does as s/he is told.

Not before the initial confession she wasn't. 

[John]

So why are organizations like Amnesty International and the Council for Europe Committee for the Prevention of Torture so interested in her case?

I'll tell you why.  Because it's all in the public domain.  Whether you like it or not, whether I like it or not, whether the Portuguese Government like it or not and I'd say in their case definitely not Leonor Cipriano has become the public face of police brutality in Portugal.  I'm sorry John  but you simply cannot sweep the matter of police brutality under the carpet.  As it is if it had been a UK matter I rather doubt if the CPS would have taken the matter any further.

Why are you confusing two issues PV?  I stated that Leonor was not tortured prior to her initial confession before an examining magistrate prior to being remanded in custody.  You then went off at a tangent posting about Amnesty International and the Council for Europe Committee for the Prevention of Torture?

Can we please keep on topic. TY

[Wonderfulspam]

Why are you confusing two issues PV?  I stated that Leonor was not tortured prior to her initial confession before an examining magistrate prior to being remanded in custody.  You then went off at a tangent posting about Amnesty International and the Council for Europe Committee for the Prevention of Torture?

Can we please keep on topic. TY

I stated that Leonor was not tortured prior to her initial confession before an examining magistrate prior to being remanded in custody.


Case closed 

[John]

I stated that Leonor was not tortured prior to her initial confession before an examining magistrate prior to being remanded in custody.


Case closed 

It was until her new lawyer started messing with her head and encouraging her to plead innocence. The same idiot who had a dream that Madeleine could be found at the bottom of the Arade Dam nearby Figueira and persuaded Método 3 to spend Madeleine Fund cash on yet another wild goose chase. 

[Wonderfulspam]

It was until her new lawyer started messing with her head and encouraging her to plead innocence. The same idiot who had a dream that Madeleine could be found at the bottom of the Arade Dam nearby Figueira and persuaded Método 3 to spend Madeleine Fund cash on yet another wild goose chase.

It's a shameful charade .

Protesting that the Cipriano's are innocent is equal to endorsing the murder of little girls imo.

[John]

As meninas que vieram das estralas and all that.  Read that too.

Still won the libel trial Amaral brought against him though didn't he?

Yes, the little girls who came from the stars novel, he is another one who sought to cash in on their misadventures.

[sadie]

I stated that Leonor was not tortured prior to her initial confession before an examining magistrate prior to being remanded in custody.


Case closed 

Case is NOT CLOSED to me and several other thinkers on here.  According to Leandro she was badly treated physically, [IIRC.]

A leopard doesn't change its spots John

The case should never have taken place.  It wasn't safe .  Had loads of flaws in it apart from horrendous torture.


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[Carana]

There are no surprises in Portuguese courts, except with perhaps a confession in front of the judge, with regard to evidence presented. If the video of João Cipriano's reconstruction was admitted, the defense lawyers knew about it. I think that it is important that posters do not forget that, in Portugal, the justice system is "inquisitorial" and not "adversarial" and that there are no Perry Mason moments in the courts rooms.

The question is when they found out that it would be admitted as evidence. One of the points in the appeal, after all, was arguing that it shouldn't have been presented as the defendants had opted not to take the stand and no confessions would be admissible. If they had found out late in the trial, they might have reconsidered their advice.

I'm aware that the system is inquisitorial, but it was still a trial with a jury.

I'd be curious to know what the extent of legal aid actually is (or was at the time). Could the defence have brought in counter experts or not? Or conducted their own forensic analysis?

[John]

The question is when they found out that it would be admitted as evidence. One of the points in the appeal, after all, was arguing that it shouldn't have been presented as the defendants had opted not to take the stand and no confessions would be admissible. If they had found out late in the trial, they might have reconsidered their advice.

I'm aware that the system is inquisitorial, but it was still a trial with a jury.

I'd be curious to know what the extent of legal aid actually is (or was at the time). Could the defence have brought in counter experts or not? Or conducted their own forensic analysis?

What's the point Carana, they both confessed to the murder.  Talk about flogging a dead horse!

[misty]

What's the point Carana, they both confessed to the murder.  Talk about flogging a dead horse!

Stefan Kiszko also confessed to the murder of Lesley Molseed without a solicitor being present  then later retracted his confession. He served 16 years for a crime later proven he didn't commit - and his conviction  was achieved by the police aided in no small part by suppressed evidence & false witness statements.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that Leonor may possibly be innocent of killing Joana - is it because they would then have to accept some of the reasons behind political assistance for the McCanns?
 

[John]

Stefan Kiszko also confessed to the murder of Lesley Molseed without a solicitor being present  then later retracted his confession. He served 16 years for a crime later proven he didn't commit - and his conviction  was achieved by the police aided in no small part by suppressed evidence & false witness statements.
Why is it so difficult for some people to accept that Leonor may possibly be innocent of killing Joana - is it because they would then have to accept some of the reasons behind political assistance for the McCanns?

Had Leonor alone confessed I would have been just a tad sceptical but both of them independently told stories which converged.  To be honest I still am not sure which one of them was the actual killer, certainly they both played a part in Joana's demise.