Author Topic: Zampo - The Full Story?  (Read 15745 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2020, 02:52:39 PM »
Brietta, with respect I posted a long post about Zampo less than an hour ago.
The other poster has hardly referenced the case, and indeed thinks I may have a hidden agenda on these boards . A bit of fairness please.

Afaiaa.  You have started two threads... Both about cadaver dogs.. I haven't suggested you have a hidden agenda... It's quite clear what your interest is. The problem is the dogs have been discussed at length.  Grime has made it clear they are not evidence.. As has Harrison... As has Prof Cassella

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2020, 04:45:44 PM »
The Sture Bergwell (Thomas Quick) case is surely one of the strangest around. It was a catalogue of errors and good intentions gone wrong from the beginning. The searches were more like an exercise in regression therapy with more psychiatrists and psychoanalysts present than police and investigators.
My own supposition on how Zampo became involved was that previously they had drained an entire lake in Norway looking for body parts of the 7 year old girl you mentioned previously and found nothing. After doing this they heard of the abilities of Zampo to find dead bodies beneath many metres of water and surmised that if he can smell a body through water imagine how good he would be to find bodies through a few inches of soil.
The problem with this was there were very few opportunities to false alert to other mammals and birds whilst searching a river or lake but when in a woodland the smell of dead animals was pervasive. His training wasn’t good enough to differentiate the odours he was locating and so alerted almost everywhere. I have no proof that this is what happen but it seems logical to me.
Why very few opportunities to falsely alert while searching a river or lake but loads in a forest?  Don’t animals die in rivers and lakes?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2020, 04:50:14 PM »
Interesting

https://www.policeprofessional.com/news/inconsistencies-highlighted-in-training-of-cadaver-dogs/

Inconsistencies highlighted in training of cadaver dogs
The operational practice and training involved with victim recovery dogs is inconsistent and national standards should be implemented across the UK, a University of Huddersfield study has concluded.

Oct 7, 2015
By Chris Allen
The operational practice and training involved with victim recovery dogs is inconsistent and national standards should be implemented across the UK, a University of Huddersfield study has concluded.

The study into how dogs recognise the smell of a decomposing body discovered inconsistencies in how police forces use the animals, known as cadaver dogs, and train handlers.

There are 70 cadaver dogs currently active across the country, with around one in three UK forces using them.

The claims have been made six years after a review of their use highlighted similar issues. The National Policing Improvement Agency – now part of the College of Policing – reviewed the use of the dogs in 2009 and concluded there was inconsistency in how and why they were deployed.

It also said there were no national standards for accrediting dogs and handlers and no records were kept of the success rate they achieved.

The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) then created national guidance on how police dogs are trained and used in 2011, but researchers claim it does not include sufficient detail on the use of cadaver dogs and the way forces train and use them and that this leads to variations in effectiveness.

During the study by the University of Huddersfield, conducted by PhD student Lorna Irish, the individual components of decomposition odour were presented to a wide variety of dogs from forces across the UK to see which elements of the scent they responded to.

It found that all of the dogs involved, even those trained in the same way, responded completely differently.

The study also identified the following discrepancies in training standards:

•There is nothing within the ACPO manual stating that pig remains – which are similar to human flesh and therefore the best training aid – must be used as an analogue for human remains. Forces have gravitated naturally towards pig meat, but some use only whole pigs, while others will only use bits of pork from a butcher;

•Forces will use meat at different states of decomposition as training aids – meaning the meat will have a slightly different odour and that as a result some dogs will be more effective than others;

•The manual is guidance only – meaning instructors can have very different interpretations of it;

•Grave specifications in the manual are vague and it only states they should vary in depth, age (ranging from three to 12 months) and terrain. No other direction is given – again this results in variable detection standards across the country;

•Refresher training is meant to be designed to “challenge” the dogs – however, no further direction is given and this therefore varies by force;

•There is no specification in the manual for the use of distractor scents or controls within training searches. In contrast, in the US dogs have to show that they can deal with distractor scents; and

•There is no specification in the manual for negative or blind searches during training, as there is in the US.

“There should be a national standard, everybody has their own different interpretation and there isn’t much communication between forces – you see good and bad things all over the place, as they have interpreted the guidance differently,” Ms Irish explained.

National policing lead for police dogs, Deputy Chief Constable Gareth Wilson, said: “Clear standards for training victim detection dogs throughout England and Wales are laid out in a national manual to ensure high standards are followed.

“These guidelines involve clear instructions on how training is carried out, which locations are used, and which materials can be legally used to ensure the best results for their essential work.”

The College of Policing would not comment on the research findings, but said that victim recovery training is a success and the guidance is always being reviewed and updated.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2020, 04:56:19 PM »
Please read it again  “derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based”.
You re-enact a scenario in a training exercise.

If I’m wrong how in your opinion do you imagine they do it based on the word anecdotal that you like to keep referencing.

grime used the word anectdotal........(of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

does that instil you with confidence

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2020, 05:02:18 PM »
I have noticed that on a lot of threads about the dog alerts that Zampo comes up often but do we know the whole story?

Zampo was an Australian kelpie breed dog and was trained in 1990 by John Sjoberg. He was trained to find drowned victims underwater. His trainer qualified as a military dog handler but he was self taught in the methods that he trained Zampo. From 1993 to spring of 1996 the police used a variety of police cadaver dogs from Norway and Finland. In this period none of these dogs alerted and the police were perplexed why the dogs weren’t confirming the very accurate confessions by Thomas Quick. Enter Zampo and straight away he started alerting. In fact on his first search he alerted to a place Quick had said he had buried two Somali teenagers but even before the search, it was confirmed that the two teenagers were in fact still alive. In spite of this the police kept using Zampo and he kept alerting everywhere. The police even set up a test for him with a pit with human remains and one without any and he failed this test also but still they kept using him.
Also Zampo never actually marked a point that Quick indicated as a site where a body had been. Quick never specified an exact location, Zampo was sent to search in the broad area Quick had suggested and after he alerted, the police officers would then tell Quick where the alert occurred and then the fantasy would continue. The police were so convinced by Quick's confessions that they almost turned a blind eye to Zampo's failings.

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

do you have a cite for this claim

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2020, 02:41:18 PM »
do you have a cite for this claim

What difference does it make? Surely the most salient point is the police discarded a plethora of competent dogs trained exactly to find human remains that may have been buried in earth because they didn’t alert where the police wanted and replaced them with a dog who was trained to locate cadavers under deep water but used him in an area he was untrained for because he kept alerting so confirming their entrenched beliefs.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2020, 02:44:14 PM »
What difference does it make? Surely the most salient point is the police discarded a plethora of competent dogs trained exactly to find human remains that may have been buried in earth because they didn’t alert where the police wanted and replaced them with a dog who was trained to locate cadavers under deep water but used him in an area he was untrained for because he kept alerting so confirming their entrenched beliefs.

the difference is can we believe everything you are saying ....  without a cite the answer is no.

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2020, 03:08:42 PM »
the difference is can we believe everything you are saying ....  without a cite the answer is no.

So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories. What if I told you I didn't make it up, would that do?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2020, 03:37:25 PM »
So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories. What if I told you I didn't make it up, would that do?

No it wouldnt do... You've made a claim now you need to show how reliable that claim is... Is it from a reliable source.  That's how this forum has always worked... So where does that information come from.. Simple question

Online Eleanor

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2020, 03:42:01 PM »
So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories. What if I told you I didn't make it up, would that do?

That would be good.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2020, 03:52:36 PM »
So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories. What if I told you I didn't make it up, would that do?

This isnt correct so youve made it up

Offline Icanhandlethetruth

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2020, 03:57:26 PM »
This isnt correct so youve made it up

What isn't correct?

This is what I posted

"So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories."

Are you saying the information is important to you and you place no importance to trying to catch me making up a story.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2020, 04:01:09 PM »
What isn't correct?

This is what I posted

"So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories."

Are you saying the information is important to you and you place no importance to trying to catch me making up a story.

even that's not correct...I asked for a cite because i want to know how reliable the information you've posted is...

Offline Brietta

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2020, 04:04:46 PM »
So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories. What if I told you I didn't make it up, would that do?

All statements purporting to be factual require a cite.  It is as simple as that.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Zampo - The Full Story?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2020, 04:07:07 PM »
What isn't correct?

This is what I posted

"So the actual information that you requested is unimportant. The importance is to see if you can catch me out making up untrue stories."

Are you saying the information is important to you and you place no importance to trying to catch me making up a story.

Please desist from deflection.

You chose the topic ... please endeavour to stick to it.   Thank you
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....