Zampo - The Full Story?

[Icanhandlethetruth]

I have noticed that on a lot of threads about the dog alerts that Zampo comes up often but do we know the whole story?

Zampo was an Australian kelpie breed dog and was trained in 1990 by John Sjoberg. He was trained to find drowned victims underwater. His trainer qualified as a military dog handler but he was self taught in the methods that he trained Zampo. From 1993 to spring of 1996 the police used a variety of police cadaver dogs from Norway and Finland. In this period none of these dogs alerted and the police were perplexed why the dogs weren’t confirming the very accurate confessions by Thomas Quick. Enter Zampo and straight away he started alerting. In fact on his first search he alerted to a place Quick had said he had buried two Somali teenagers but even before the search, it was confirmed that the two teenagers were in fact still alive. In spite of this the police kept using Zampo and he kept alerting everywhere. The police even set up a test for him with a pit with human remains and one without any and he failed this test also but still they kept using him.
Also Zampo never actually marked a point that Quick indicated as a site where a body had been. Quick never specified an exact location, Zampo was sent to search in the broad area Quick had suggested and after he alerted, the police officers would then tell Quick where the alert occurred and then the fantasy would continue. The police were so convinced by Quick's confessions that they almost turned a blind eye to Zampo's failings.

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

[Venturi Swirl]

I have noticed that on a lot of threads about the dog alerts that Zampo comes up often but do we know the whole story?

Zampo was an Australian kelpie breed dog and was trained in 1990 by John Sjoberg. He was trained to find drowned victims underwater. His trainer qualified as a military dog handler but he was self taught in the methods that he trained Zampo. From 1993 to spring of 1996 the police used a variety of police cadaver dogs from Norway and Finland. In this period none of these dogs alerted and the police were perplexed why the dogs weren’t confirming the very accurate confessions by Thomas Quick. Enter Zampo and straight away he started alerting. In fact on his first search he alerted to a place Quick had said he had buried two Somali teenagers but even before the search, it was confirmed that the two teenagers were in fact still alive. In spite of this the police kept using Zampo and he kept alerting everywhere. The police even set up a test for him with a pit with human remains and one without any and he failed this test also but still they kept using him.
Also Zampo never actually marked a point that Quick indicated as a site where a body had been. Quick never specified an exact location, Zampo was sent to search in the broad area Quick had suggested and after he alerted, the police officers would then tell Quick where the alert occurred and then the fantasy would continue. The police were so convinced by Quick's confessions that they almost turned a blind eye to Zampo's failings.

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

Which begs the question- who independently tests and monitors the abilities of dogs and handlers to ensure they are performing to the required standard? 

[Eleanor]

Which begs the question- who independently tests and monitors the abilities of dogs and handlers to ensure they are performing to the required standard?

Grime did his own checks.  He said so.

[Brietta]

I have noticed that on a lot of threads about the dog alerts that Zampo comes up often but do we know the whole story?

Zampo was an Australian kelpie breed dog and was trained in 1990 by John Sjoberg. He was trained to find drowned victims underwater. His trainer qualified as a military dog handler but he was self taught in the methods that he trained Zampo. From 1993 to spring of 1996 the police used a variety of police cadaver dogs from Norway and Finland. In this period none of these dogs alerted and the police were perplexed why the dogs weren’t confirming the very accurate confessions by Thomas Quick. Enter Zampo and straight away he started alerting. In fact on his first search he alerted to a place Quick had said he had buried two Somali teenagers but even before the search, it was confirmed that the two teenagers were in fact still alive. In spite of this the police kept using Zampo and he kept alerting everywhere. The police even set up a test for him with a pit with human remains and one without any and he failed this test also but still they kept using him.
Also Zampo never actually marked a point that Quick indicated as a site where a body had been. Quick never specified an exact location, Zampo was sent to search in the broad area Quick had suggested and after he alerted, the police officers would then tell Quick where the alert occurred and then the fantasy would continue. The police were so convinced by Quick's confessions that they almost turned a blind eye to Zampo's failings.

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

Thanks for that Ichtt.
I knew about Zampo and his exploits as it has been brought to the forum before but I didn't research his handler's background as you have, which is really quite an impressive one https://www.spek-9services.com/index.html
So quite obviously something went seriously wrong when this particular team were deployed on this particular investigation.

It is weird that the penny didn't drop when previous inspections had failed but suddenly hits started being scored when Zampo arrived on the scene.
I think good practice should have been the reverse.  The VRD alerts ... and that alert is verified or not by another dog or dogs or the recovery of physical evidence at the alert scene.  I don't think an alert in the field by one dog is sufficient no matter the success rate in training.

I believe it is one of the main weaknesses of Eddie's so called alerts in Portugal and in Jersey that there was neither confirmation either forensically or by another dog.

In Zampo's case I think Quick was quite discommoded that it was eventually proved that Zampo did not back up his claims to be a mass murderer.  In the McCann case that most certainly would not have been the reaction of the falsely accused.
The effort by the PJ to convict based on the uncorroborated dog alerts if successful would have been one of the greatest miscarriages ever.  A dog barking is never enough not even if like Zampo and Eddie they have been trained by recognised experts in their field.

[G-Unit]

Icanhandlethetruth's statement is valid, if a little obvious;

snip/

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

It isn't just the dog's abilities of course, it's those of the trainer and the handler too. In the Quick case none of the police-trained dogs gave false alerts.

[Mr Gray]

Icanhandlethetruth's statement is valid, if a little obvious;

snip/

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

It isn't just the dog's abilities of course, it's those of the trainer and the handler too. In the Quick case none of the police-trained dogs gave false alerts.

No one knows how many alerts in Luz and Jersey are false..
Eleven alerts in Jersey yet like the Zampo case there are no records of any deaths

[Brietta]

I think there is a potential for more comparison between the Thomas Quick affair and the Kate McCann affair than Zampo and Eddie.

I think there may be a whole belief system of officialdom in play of which Zampo and Eddie were but bit part players.

The Swedish ‘confessions’ made by a perhaps at the time mentally ill but certainly a drug fuelled individual to a small cog in the system which believed and wanted to believe his guilt, is mirrored in my opinion, by the small group which fervently wanted to believe in the guilt of the mother and pulled out all the stops to that end.

Both in Sweden and in Portugal that limited vision of the investigators was detrimental to getting to the root of finding out what actually happened to the victims of the alleged crimes by taking the focus off the actual perpetrators for many years.

Thomas Quick claimed to have murdered Therese Johannessen who he described as having shoulder length blonde hair; perhaps that description should have rung the warning bell for investigators and interrogators.
Despite the Nordic sounding name Therese’s country of origin was Pakistan and her hair was short and dark.

Quick might have believed his confessions having been softened up by psychoanalysis and powerful drugs and those who had invested in his confessions wanted to believe too. 
I doubt if the Policia Judiciaria would have investigated any more than the Swedish police did if Kate’s interrogation had resulted in similar nonsense and other anomalies as Quirk’s had. 
In Portugal as in Sweden they wanted to believe and dropped analytical skills which prevented anyone voicing a note of caution or taking a step back to think about it - and in such a mindset are Miscarriages of Justice fostered.

[G-Unit]

I think there is a potential for more comparison between the Thomas Quick affair and the Kate McCann affair than Zampo and Eddie.

I think there may be a whole belief system of officialdom in play of which Zampo and Eddie were but bit part players.

The Swedish ‘confessions’ made by a perhaps at the time mentally ill but certainly a drug fuelled individual to a small cog in the system which believed and wanted to believe his guilt, is mirrored in my opinion, by the small group which fervently wanted to believe in the guilt of the mother and pulled out all the stops to that end.

Both in Sweden and in Portugal that limited vision of the investigators was detrimental to getting to the root of finding out what actually happened to the victims of the alleged crimes by taking the focus off the actual perpetrators for many years.

Thomas Quick claimed to have murdered Therese Johannessen who he described as having shoulder length blonde hair; perhaps that description should have rung the warning bell for investigators and interrogators.
Despite the Nordic sounding name Therese’s country of origin was Pakistan and her hair was short and dark.

Quick might have believed his confessions having been softened up by psychoanalysis and powerful drugs and those who had invested in his confessions wanted to believe too. 
I doubt if the Policia Judiciaria would have investigated any more than the Swedish police did if Kate’s interrogation had resulted in similar nonsense and other anomalies as Quirk’s had. 
In Portugal as in Sweden they wanted to believe and dropped analytical skills which prevented anyone voicing a note of caution or taking a step back to think about it - and in such a mindset are Miscarriages of Justice fostered.

Are you suggesting that Mark Harrison and Martin Grime collaborated with the PJ to fit up the McCanns?

[Mr Gray]

Are you suggesting that Mark Harrison and Martin Grime collaborated with the PJ to fit up the McCanns?

You still don't understand do you... How could Grime fit up the McCanns .. He said the alerts weren't evidence unless forensic evidence was found

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Which begs the question- who independently tests and monitors the abilities of dogs and handlers to ensure they are performing to the required standard?

In the case of Zampo, there seemed to be no monitoring or testing of his abilities independent or otherwise.
But we do know that UK dogs and trainers have to be licensed and verified by ACPO annually in a 6 month rolling program.

[Mr Gray]

In the case of Zampo, there seemed to be no monitoring or testing of his abilities independent or otherwise.
But we do know that UK dogs and trainers have to be licensed and verified by ACPO annually in a 6 month rolling program.

Do you know what that licensing entails... It's not a lot.  You've made several claims about Zampo but not provided any links to support them
It's quite obvious your sole aim here is to try and show the alerts are something they are not.  Grime said they needed to be confirmed with forensic evidence. They weren't.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Do you know what that licensing entails... It's not a lot.  You've made several claims about Zampo but not provided any links to support them
It's quite obvious your sole aim here is to try and show the alerts are something they are not.  Grime said they needed to be confirmed with forensic evidence. They weren't.

It seems you know what the ACPO licensing involves, I am always up for education so please enlighten me.

[Mr Gray]

It seems you know what the ACPO licensing involves, I am always up for education so please enlighten me.

It's been discussed before... Anecdotal evidence...

[Icanhandlethetruth]

It's been discussed before... Anecdotal evidence...

I was expecting a bit more than that.
I really would like to learn exactly how the whole process is administered.
I am genuinely interested

[Mr Gray]

I was expecting a bit more than that.
I really would like to learn exactly how the whole process is administered.
I am genuinely interested

So what you are, saying is that you are citing Acpo licensing as being some sort of guarantee but don't know what it entails