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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: misty on November 06, 2016, 01:23:32 AM

Title: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 06, 2016, 01:23:32 AM
Uncle tells how Joana Cipriano was murdered and how he fed the mortal remains of the child to the pigs.

For the first time CMTV shows raw video footage of the reconstitution of the Joana Cipriano murder.  John Cipriano shows the police how he killed his niece with the help of his sister, Leonor Cipriano, the girl's mother.  He explains how she was hit and fell against a wall.  How they cleaned up the crimescene, cut up the girls body using a hacksaw and later disposed of the remiains by feeding them to the pigs.

Video


http://www.cmjornal.pt/multimedia/videos/detalhe/cmtv-mostra-reconstituicao-do-homicidio-de-joana

Uncle tells how he killed Joana Cipriano and showed how he fed the child's remains to the pigs. See the re-enactment of the crime that shocked Portugal tonight at 11:45 pm, on CMTV.


Twelve years later, the jurors who considered the case of Joana, the Portimão girl who went missing in September 2004, still have doubts.  Justice ended the case with two losing votes of the judges of the Supreme Court of Justice, but still without knowing where the body of the child is.

The theorythat the eight-year-old girl was sold continues to make sense in the mind of some of the jurors-who voted for conviction – and also on the neighbours, like Zulmira Ofélia, the last person to see Joana alive. "I don't know if they killed her [her mother and uncle]. I've never been sure, I admit they might have sold her. I don't know," says one of the jurors to the CM, 12 years after the crime. "I was never convinced that they had killed the girl. Very little time has passed since I saw her, until I talked to the mother. There was no way they could have hidden the body and be so relaxed, "says the neighbour. Leonor and João Cipriano have already served two-thirds of the prison sentence to which they were condemned (16 years and eight months) and could be released soon.
 
The trial for murder and concealment of corpse was marked by the confession of John, who agreed to reconstitute the crime, images that now the CM reveals for the first time. The uncle of the child recalled how they butchered the girl and how they hid the body in a freezer. Then, says he gave the remains to the pigs.

http://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/tio-conta-como-matou-joana

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Is anyone able to upload the programme for us to view, please?
Anyone else think the programme/ release of these images is in respect of an ulterior motive?



84
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 10, 2016, 01:46:17 AM
Correio da Manha reveals images of Joana's uncle John Cipriano re-enacting the alleged murder. Cipriano showed how the girl was killed, how they cleaned up after the event and later fed the remains of the child to the pigs.


(http://cdn.cmjornal.pt/images/2016-11/img_757x498$2016_11_05_00_58_00_574080.jpg)

The disappeared child, eight-year-old Joana Cipriano.

(http://cdn.cmjornal.pt/images/2016-11/img_757x498$2016_11_05_01_00_06_574081.jpg)

(http://cdn.cmjornal.pt/images/2016-11/img_757x498$2016_11_05_01_00_10_574082.jpg)

(http://cdn.cmjornal.pt/images/2016-11/img_757x498$2016_11_05_01_00_15_574083.jpg)

John Cipriano, uncle of the missing child, takes part in a reconstitution of the crime.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 10, 2016, 01:56:17 AM
Many excuses have been made over the years as to why the Cipriano's would confess to the crime of murder and concealment of a corpse but at last we have the raw uncut Policia Judicial footage of John Cipriano taking part in a reconstitution of the event.  Unfortunately the video is in Portuguese but I think anyone watching it will get the gist of what is being described.

No torture, no bruises, no threats of violence and not a plastic bag in sight!

http://www.cmjornal.pt/multimedia/videos/detalhe/cmtv-mostra-reconstituicao-do-homicidio-de-joana

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: mercury on November 10, 2016, 03:33:37 AM
Jesus f christ that video is disturbing

>>>>>>
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 10, 2016, 05:54:45 PM
Many excuses have been made over the years as to why the Cipriano's would confess to the crime of murder and concealment of a corpse but at last we have the raw uncut Policia Judicial footage of John Cipriano taking part in a reconstitution of the event.  Unfortunately the video is in Portuguese but I think anyone watching it will get the gist of what is being described.

No torture, no bruises, no threats of violence and not a plastic bag in sight!

http://www.cmjornal.pt/multimedia/videos/detalhe/cmtv-mostra-reconstituicao-do-homicidio-de-joana

The laws of physics say you can't fit the body of an 8 year old girl into a freezer drawer that small, dismembered or not.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 11, 2016, 02:34:21 AM
The laws of physics say you can't fit the body of an 8 year old girl into a freezer drawer that small, dismembered or not.

That is why he used a hacksaw, the one he is pointing to in the photograph below.

(http://cdn.cmjornal.pt/images/2016-11/img_757x498$2016_11_05_01_00_10_574082.jpg)
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 11, 2016, 02:53:33 AM
That is why he used a hacksaw, the one he is pointing to in the photograph below.

(http://cdn.cmjornal.pt/images/2016-11/img_757x498$2016_11_05_01_00_10_574082.jpg)

The child's head wouldn't have fitted in one of those drawers, John - or did he spend hours sawing through the bones?
What was the tilted stool used for, stretcher-like?
This is the same Joao who was going to stand up in court & testify that he had sold Joana?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 11, 2016, 02:59:04 AM
The child's head wouldn't have fitted in one of those drawers, John - or did he spend hours sawing through the bones?
What was the tilted stool used for, stretcher-like?
This is the same Joao who was going to stand up in court & testify that he had sold Joana?

The stool was used to represent how John and Leonor carried the body out of the house with a plastic bag over the dead girl's head.  Wasn't it ironic that Leonor should later also have a plastic bag placed over her head?  Poetic justice?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 11, 2016, 04:02:08 PM
The stool was used to represent how John and Leonor carried the body out of the house with a plastic bag over the dead girl's head.  Wasn't it ironic that Leonor should later also have a plastic bag placed over her head?  Poetic justice?

That's what I thought it represented, John. Even as you typed that......didn't it all seem a little too ridiculous for words?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 12, 2016, 03:40:26 PM
That's what I thought it represented, John. Even as you typed that......didn't it all seem a little too ridiculous for words?

What I really find ridiculous is those questioning John Cipriano's admission of guilt.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 12, 2016, 06:07:52 PM
What I really find ridiculous is those questioning John Cipriano's admission of guilt.

Whilst he may be a nasty piece of work, it is still imperative that justice was done & seen to be done. The very fact CdM have resurrected this story now & reflected on local doubts surrounding the convictions is interesting.
In light of Joao's "confession", I would have thought the PJ would have forensically tested the pig pen for bone gristle & human DNA. Another "oversight" on their part?
Here's a case of a man who fed multiple victims to the pigs......coincidentally tried in 2007 .....http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572132/Pig-farmer-guilty-of-prostitute-murders.html

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Eleanor on November 13, 2016, 12:35:01 AM

There is no way in which there would have been no DNA in The Pig Pen.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 14, 2016, 12:32:29 AM
There is no way in which there would have been no DNA in The Pig Pen.

Have you ever seen a typical pig pen?

Try finding DNA in that lot and that's a big pen!

(http://i42.tinypic.com/igb4w0.jpg)
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 14, 2016, 01:09:43 AM
The stool was used to represent how John and Leonor carried the body out of the house with a plastic bag over the dead girl's head.  Wasn't it ironic that Leonor should later also have a plastic bag placed over her head?  Poetic justice?

So they carried the body out of the house, dismembered it elsewhere & brought it back to store in the freezer?

Have you ever seen a typical pig pen?

Try finding DNA in that lot and that's a big pen!

(http://i42.tinypic.com/igb4w0.jpg)

http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20150421/NEWS/150429879

It certainly didn't stop the Oregon police doing their job in the Susan Monica case!
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 15, 2016, 10:16:18 AM
So they carried the body out of the house, dismembered it elsewhere & brought it back to store in the freezer?

http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20150421/NEWS/150429879

It certainly didn't stop the Oregon police doing their job in the Susan Monica case!

Had João Cipriano not cooperated with the PJ to the extent he did in order to get a reduced sentence I too would have found the details oif this case very hard to believe. He knew exactly what he was doing when he confessed to his part in this sorry story.

It is now 11 years since siblings Leonor and João Cipriano were sentenced to 20 and 19 years of jail for Joana's murder. The two remain within the confines of Tires and Carregueira, waiting parole.

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Eleanor on November 15, 2016, 03:54:43 PM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FedToPigs
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 15, 2016, 05:53:32 PM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FedToPigs

Good find!. So by all accounts there should have been human hair & possibly skull fragments in the pig pen Joao supposedly used.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Eleanor on November 15, 2016, 06:23:25 PM
Good find!. So by all accounts there should have been human hair & possibly skull fragments in the pig pen Joao supposedly used.

And teeth.  And at least large fragments of the larger bones.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 15, 2016, 11:32:22 PM
Good find!. So by all accounts there should have been human hair & possibly skull fragments in the pig pen Joao supposedly used.

He had plenty of time to dispose of them.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: mercury on November 15, 2016, 11:53:10 PM
He had plenty of time to dispose of them.

Must be one sick puppy in the first place to do this to anyone let alone his sisters daughter
Unless its some kind of norm there to get rid of bodies like this

The mind really boggles

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 16, 2016, 12:19:32 AM
Must be one sick puppy in the first place to do this to anyone let alone his sisters daughter
Unless its some kind of norm there to get rid of bodies like this

The mind really boggles

Of course, he may have just been "persuaded" to say that was how he disposed of Joana. That way, local plod didn't have to bother trying to locate a body to achieve the first conviction of its kind in the country.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 18, 2016, 06:04:28 PM
Must be one sick puppy in the first place to do this to anyone let alone his sisters daughter
Unless its some kind of norm there to get rid of bodies like this

The mind really boggles

I think that goes without saying. Joana's uncle, João Cipriano, already served a sentence for attempted murder even before Joana disappeared.   That poor little girl was passed from pillar to post in her younger life with her welfare being left to neighbours on many occasions while her mother went off for days on end with different men.  It was only in her latter years that stepfather Leandro Silva brought some stability to the family but then the mother let Joáo Cipriano back in.  The rest is history.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on November 18, 2016, 09:16:21 PM
I think that goes without saying. Joana's uncle, João Cipriano, already served a sentence for attempted murder even before Joana disappeared.   That poor little girl was passed from pillar to post in her younger life with her welfare being left to neighbours on many occasions while her mother went off for days on end with different men.  It was only in her latter years that stepfather Leandro Silva brought some stability to the family but then the mother let Joáo Cipriano back in.  The rest is history.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3353.15
A reminder of what Leandro had to say about the matter.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 19, 2016, 10:57:14 AM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3353.15
A reminder of what Leandro had to say about the matter.

I wonder how much the Sun newspaper paid him for that grovelling exclusive, three years AFTER the event?  The same Leando Silva who refused to give a semen sample when semen was found in Joana's underwear.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3050.msg114919#msg114919
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2016, 12:03:43 PM
Had João Cipriano not cooperated with the PJ to the extent he did in order to get a reduced sentence I too would have found the details oif this case very hard to believe. He knew exactly what he was doing when he confessed to his part in this sorry story.

It is now 11 years since siblings Leonor and João Cipriano were sentenced to 20 and 19 years of jail for Joana's murder. The two remain within the confines of Tires and Carregueira, waiting parole.
he was coerced into confessing to get a reduced sentence
this case is highly likely to be a miscarriage of justice. No real evidence apart from the so called confessions
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Moderator on November 19, 2016, 01:25:30 PM
he was coerced into confessing to get a reduced sentence
this case is highly likely to be a miscarriage of justice. No real evidence apart from the so called confessions

We prefer to deal in facts here, do you have anything to back up your opinion?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 19, 2016, 03:36:21 PM
he was coerced into confessing to get a reduced sentence
this case is highly likely to be a miscarriage of justice. No real evidence apart from the so called confessions

Were you in court during the trial?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2016, 05:02:12 PM
Had João Cipriano not cooperated with the PJ to the extent he did in order to get a reduced sentence I too would have found the details oif this case very hard to believe. He knew exactly what he was doing when he confessed to his part in this sorry story.

It is now 11 years since siblings Leonor and João Cipriano were sentenced to 20 and 19 years of jail for Joana's murder. The two remain within the confines of Tires and Carregueira, waiting parole.


so who advised him to cooperate in order to get a reduced sentence........thats coercian
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2016, 05:03:57 PM
We prefer to deal in facts here, do you have anything to back up your opinion?

Johns post
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2016, 05:06:23 PM
the pj claimed bloodstains present supported their claims yet none of the blood tested matched Joanna.
so they cut up yhe body and left absolutely no forensic trace.....totally unbelievable imo
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 19, 2016, 05:08:26 PM

so who advised him to cooperate in order to get a reduced sentence........thats coercian

I think you confuse cooperation with coercion.  Your claim of coercion has no basis, João Cipriano went out voluntarily with the PJ looking for Joana's remains.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2016, 05:16:55 PM
I think you confuse cooperation with coercion.  Your claim of coercion has no basis, João Cipriano went out voluntarily with the PJ looking for Joana's remains.

voluntarily in your opinion....he had already seen the severe beating his sister had received. I cant imagine anyone voluntarily admitting to such a crime...can you....the police had nothing
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Eleanor on November 19, 2016, 05:35:37 PM

The whole thing stinks.  In my opinion.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 19, 2016, 05:55:42 PM
The whole thing stinks.  In my opinion.

of course it stinks....the police had absolutely nothing but both suspects being good citizenns decided to help them by confessing and condemning themselved to 20 yrs in prison
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2016, 06:40:08 PM
Once upon a time....
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 20, 2016, 02:53:56 AM
One never ceases to be amazed at the support for child killers.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 20, 2016, 09:37:28 AM
One never ceases to be amazed at the support for child killers.

not everyone who is found guilty is guilty John....miscarriages of justice do happen.....im surprised you want to ignore that fact

The fact that she has been found guilty does not mean she is guilty....that is a fact. therefore you cannot say with certainty she is a child killer...that is another fact
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 20, 2016, 12:37:38 PM
not everyone who is found guilty is guilty John....miscarriages of justice do happen.....im surprised you want to ignore that fact

The fact that she has been found guilty does not mean she is guilty....that is a fact. therefore you cannot say with certainty she is a child killer...that is another fact

This thread is about João Cipriano, the clue is in the name?  I fear Leonor has always covered for him because she knew that if he was convicted of murder with his record he would go away for a very long time. Joana disappeared on the evenng of the 12th September 2004 and it wasn't until nearly two weeks later on the 25th that Leonor was taken into custody, her brother and Joana's uncle, João Cipriano, arrested two days later.  In that two weeks they had every opportunity to dispose of Joana's remains properly and concoct the story that it was she who hit and killed the child and not he.

We know of course that she retracted her confession and blamed her brother João claiming he Chad taken the girl away to sell to foreigners but that things had gone sour and the girl died.  I will add that many people who knew her have said she was incapable of killing any child, her partner Leandro Silva being one of them.  Clearly her devotion to her brother is more important to her than telling what really occurred.  No doubt they will have each other when they are eventually paroled.

One other theory which was raised early on was that Joana had been sold to foreigners.  Had that really taken place was 20 years too high a price for silence?  I think so!
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on November 20, 2016, 01:52:43 PM
This thread is about João Cipriano, the clue is in the name?  I fear Leonor has always covered for him because she knew that if he was convicted of murder with his record he would go away for a very long time. Joana disappeared on the evenng of the 12th September 2004 and it wasn't until nearly two weeks later on the 25th that Leonor was taken into custody, her brother and Joana's uncle, João Cipriano, arrested two days later.  In that two weeks they had every opportunity to dispose of Joana's remains properly and concoct the story that it was she who hit and killed the child and not he.

We know of course that she retracted her confession and blamed her brother João claiming he Chad taken the girl away to sell to foreigners but that things had gone sour and the girl died.  I will add that many people who knew her have said she was incapable of killing any child, her partner Leandro Silva being one of them.  Clearly her devotion to her brother is more important to her than telling what really occurred.  No doubt they will have each other when they are eventually paroled.

One other theory which was raised early on was that Joana had been sold to foreigners.  Had that really taken place was 20 years too high a price for silence?  I think so!

The manner in which the Cipriano's have behaved over the last twelve years points to them both being involved to a greater or lesser degree.  When they weren't covering for each other they were blaming each other.  They both got their just desserts imo.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Mr Gray on November 20, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
This thread is about João Cipriano, the clue is in the name?  I fear Leonor has always covered for him because she knew that if he was convicted of murder with his record he would go away for a very long time. Joana disappeared on the evenng of the 12th September 2004 and it wasn't until nearly two weeks later on the 25th that Leonor was taken into custody, her brother and Joana's uncle, João Cipriano, arrested two days later.  In that two weeks they had every opportunity to dispose of Joana's remains properly and concoct the story that it was she who hit and killed the child and not he.

We know of course that she retracted her confession and blamed her brother João claiming he Chad taken the girl away to sell to foreigners but that things had gone sour and the girl died.  I will add that many people who knew her have said she was incapable of killing any child, her partner Leandro Silva being one of them.  Clearly her devotion to her brother is more important to her than telling what really occurred.  No doubt they will have each other when they are eventually paroled.

One other theory which was raised early on was that Joana had been sold to foreigners.  Had that really taken place was 20 years too high a price for silence?  I think so!

you cannot state with certainty they are child killes which is what my answer to your post was about. The evidence agaist them was basically non existent apart from the confessions . There have been several miscarriages of justice involving confessions and suspects of low intelligence.
As Eleanor says the whole case stinks and i agree
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: John on November 22, 2016, 09:09:04 PM
When two people independently admit to a joint enterprise killing the alarm bells start ringing.  Unless of course you are a believer in extreme coincidences?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Mr Gray on November 22, 2016, 10:52:41 PM
When two people independently admit to a joint enterprise killing the alarm bells start ringing.  Unless of course you are a believer in extreme coincidences?

No real evidence apart from confession fro Tw people of very low intelligence
One out of three judges thought not guilty
How far away were they from being acquitted
Your 100% claim is rather balmy
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: sadie on November 23, 2016, 12:08:51 AM
This thread is about João Cipriano, the clue is in the name?  I fear Leonor has always covered for him because she knew that if he was convicted of murder with his record he would go away for a very long time. Joana disappeared on the evenng of the 12th September 2004 and it wasn't until nearly two weeks later on the 25th that Leonor was taken into custody, her brother and Joana's uncle, João Cipriano, arrested two days later.  In that two weeks they had every opportunity to dispose of Joana's remains properly and concoct the story that it was she who hit and killed the child and not he.

We know of course that she retracted her confession and blamed João before writing to him to say she was sorry.  I will add that many people who knew her have said she was incapable of killing any child, her partner Leandro Silva being one of them.  Clearly her devotion to her brother is more important to her than telling what really occurred.  No doubt they will have each other when they are eventually paroled.

One other theory which was raised early on was that Joana had been sold to foreigners.  Had that really taken place was 20 years too high a price for silence?  I think so!

I rather thought that it was the other way round, that Joao wrote to Leanor apologising for blaming her.  Although I cannot find it, I know he did ... Marcos Aragao Correia commented on it I believe
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: John on November 23, 2016, 01:31:59 AM
No real evidence apart from confession fro Tw people of very low intelligence
One out of three judges thought not guilty
How far away were they from being acquitted
Your 100% claim is rather balmy

No, I'm very sure they are both in on it to varying degrees.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on November 23, 2016, 01:41:49 AM
I rather thought that it was the other way round, that Joao wrote to Leanor apologising for blaming her.  Although I cannot find it, I know he did ... Marcos Aragao Correia commented on it I believe

I believe you are correct on that point Sadie, I have edited my post accordingly.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: ferryman on December 30, 2016, 02:50:17 PM
Many excuses have been made over the years as to why the Cipriano's would confess to the crime of murder and concealment of a corpse but at last we have the raw uncut Policia Judicial footage of John Cipriano taking part in a reconstitution of the event.  Unfortunately the video is in Portuguese but I think anyone watching it will get the gist of what is being described.

No torture, no bruises, no threats of violence and not a plastic bag in sight!

http://www.cmjornal.pt/multimedia/videos/detalhe/cmtv-mostra-reconstituicao-do-homicidio-de-joana

What?

It was proven in a Portuguese court that Leonor was tortured.

You don't think the Portuguese police would be daft enough to release, let alone take, film of the torture.

Do you?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on December 30, 2016, 08:20:06 PM
What?

It was proven in a Portuguese court that Leonor was tortured.

You don't think the Portuguese police would be daft enough to release, let alone take, film of the torture.

Do you?

I was referring to the claimed assault on Joao Cipriano who freely admitted to the crime.  Do you really believe he would have taken part in such a charade if he was innocent?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on December 30, 2016, 10:48:32 PM
I was referring to the claimed assault on Joao Cipriano who freely admitted to the crime.  Do you really believe he would have taken part in such a charade if he was innocent?

Why does anybody admit to a crime they haven't committed? It happens. Probably warrants its own discussion thread at some stage.
We just don't know if the pair are innocent or guilty but they are serving sentences based on an unsafe conviction imo.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on January 06, 2017, 01:20:52 AM
Why does anybody admit to a crime they haven't committed? It happens. Probably warrants its own discussion thread at some stage.
We just don't know if the pair are innocent or guilty but they are serving sentences based on an unsafe conviction imo.

Both João and Leonor Cipriano have admitted to varying degrees of involvement in Joana's disappearance over several years and since they have not been able to confer or speak to each other they must be speaking from personal experience.  The liklihood that both of them invented a confession of a broadly similar nature is thus rarer than hens teeth.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on January 06, 2017, 01:54:45 AM
Both João and Leonor Cipriano have admitted to varying degrees of involvement in Joana's disappearance over several years and since they have not been able to confer or speak to each other they must be speaking from personal experience.  The liklihood that both of them invented a confession of a broadly similar nature is thus rarer than hens teeth.

Yes, disappearance, not death.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on January 06, 2017, 02:04:07 AM
Yes, disappearance, not death.

Well João has claimed he fed her remains to the pigs so make of that what you may.  Not the sort of thing any sane person would claim if totally innocent.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on January 06, 2017, 02:18:40 AM
Well João has claimed he fed her remains to the pigs so make of that what you may.  Not the sort of thing any sane person would claim if totally innocent.

No they wouldn't, unless they were under extreme duress. No-one is interested in looking for Joana now or finding out what really happened to her.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on January 08, 2017, 06:52:20 PM
No real evidence apart from confession fro Tw people of very low intelligence
One out of three judges thought not guilty
How far away were they from being acquitted
Your 100% claim is rather balmy

Its you who are balmy and very biased.  Your claim about no evidence is just silly, no court would convict otherwise.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2017, 07:22:49 PM
Well João has claimed he fed her remains to the pigs so make of that what you may.  Not the sort of thing any sane person would claim if totally innocent.

When, where and under which conditions did he state this?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on January 22, 2017, 11:33:18 PM
When, where and under which conditions did he state this?

Watch the video.  John Cipriano has either the greatest imagination in the world along with being the most accomplished liar or he told the story as it happened.  You pays your money and you take your pick.

http://www.cmjornal.pt/multimedia/videos/detalhe/cmtv-mostra-reconstituicao-do-homicidio-de-joana
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2017, 07:01:11 PM
Watch the video.  John Cipriano has either the greatest imagination in the world along with being the most accomplished liar or he told the story as it happened.  You pays your money and you take your pick.

http://www.cmjornal.pt/multimedia/videos/detalhe/cmtv-mostra-reconstituicao-do-homicidio-de-joana

Some posters would swear black is white if it suited their agenda.  John Cipriano is obviously guilty and his sister Leonor knows exactly what went on.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: John on January 23, 2017, 11:53:53 PM
Some posters would swear black is white if it suited their agenda.  John Cipriano is obviously guilty and his sister Leonor knows exactly what went on.

Of course she does.  Regardless of whether she was directly involved or not in the girl's murder, she was an accomplice after the fact and every bit as guilty as her brother.  Her pathetic attempts to protect him were very telling.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2017, 01:47:54 PM
Of course she does.  Regardless of whether she was directly involved or not in the girl's murder, she was an accomplice after the fact and every bit as guilty as her brother.  Her pathetic attempts to protect him were very telling.

There is no physical evidence as to what happened to this missing child.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: John on January 25, 2017, 02:10:57 PM
There is no physical evidence as to what happened to this missing child.

Of course there was Carana.  From memory there was blood on the door and wall where John Cipriano indicated, blood on shoes under a settee and in a fridge/freezer. 
Video timestamp 5.53

(http://i.imgur.com/xkcyMG8.jpg)

Video timestamp 10.49

(http://i.imgur.com/b0BgrG2.jpg)


Here is some physical evidence you might not have seen before.
Video timestamp 10.00

(http://i.imgur.com/rUYJ54x.jpg)

And further physical evidence
Video timestamp 10.39

(http://i.imgur.com/TdFmfu1.jpg)
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on January 26, 2017, 11:58:36 AM
Oh dear...so much for the no physical evidence claim.  Do you feel foolish now Carana?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on January 26, 2017, 01:10:53 PM
How were they able to video evidence which had been lost/ destroyed? (according to the court case)
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 26, 2017, 02:48:25 PM
How were they able to video evidence which had been lost/ destroyed? (according to the court case)

The forensic evidence was there for all to see.  Poor little sod, the drug crazed blighter fed her to the porkies.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on January 26, 2017, 05:06:36 PM
The forensic evidence was there for all to see.  Poor little sod, the drug crazed blighter fed her to the porkies.

Cite for where all that "evidence" was found, please.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on January 26, 2017, 05:31:22 PM
Cite for where all that "evidence" was found, please.

All the information is contained in the video misty but in Portuguese.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: misty on January 26, 2017, 06:25:42 PM
All the information is contained in the video misty but in Portuguese.

It's not consistent with the court case, Angelo. No blood or hair was found pertaining to Joana. What are the contents of the bags supposed to be?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on January 26, 2017, 08:02:54 PM
It's not consistent with the court case, Angelo. No blood or hair was found pertaining to Joana. What are the contents of the bags supposed to be?

I think you need to read the Supreme Court decision again misty because it was determined that vestiges of blood found belonged to the 8-year-old minor.

There has also been no insurmountable contradiction in the motivation of not having been understood as being of the deceased CC the vestiges collected through the projectina technique and the understanding that the remains of human blood collected in the house where the facts took place or between this conclusion and Namely that, by the action of the defendants, it was not possible to determine the DNA of such blood. This is because it was through many other elements of evidence that it was concluded that the blood of the smaller one was collected in the house..

When they arrived they saw that the interior of the room had been washed, and that washing was in contrast with the lack of cleaning and tidying up of the rest of the house, but even so they still found traces of blood on the floor, on the walls, in the bucket and mop and on the sole Of sneakers that were in the room..

These traces, according to expert reports, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cf., pages 235), and although they are insufficient to ascertain who they belong to through DNA (pages 1780 ss), they reveal that in Room where the CC lived and where it was headed something terrible happened, something that gave rise to human blood on the floor and walls, which were cleaned with a mop and bucket, and the blood that was in the mop He found on the stem, revealing that whoever used the mop had his hands dirty with blood.

The CC2 medical and veterinary witness at the DGAA stated that adult pigs eat a corpse of an 8-year-old human, explaining that if they are 5 or 6 pigs they eat an 8-year-old corpse in 10 or 12 hours and That if the corpse is cut it will be even faster. He said that the pigs eat the corpse completely, making it disappear completely and only leaving residues in the feces that were not digested.


http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: misty on January 26, 2017, 09:33:28 PM
I think you need to read the Supreme Court decision again misty because it was determined that vestiges of blood found belonged to the 8-year-old minor.

There has also been no insurmountable contradiction in the motivation of not having been understood as being of the deceased CC the vestiges collected through the projectina technique and the understanding that the remains of human blood collected in the house where the facts took place or between this conclusion and Namely that, by the action of the defendants, it was not possible to determine the DNA of such blood. This is because it was through many other elements of evidence that it was concluded that the blood of the smaller one was collected in the house..

When they arrived they saw that the interior of the room had been washed, and that washing was in contrast with the lack of cleaning and tidying up of the rest of the house, but even so they still found traces of blood on the floor, on the walls, in the bucket and mop and on the sole Of sneakers that were in the room..

These traces, according to expert reports, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cf., pages 235), and although they are insufficient to ascertain who they belong to through DNA (pages 1780 ss), they reveal that in Room where the CC lived and where it was headed something terrible happened, something that gave rise to human blood on the floor and walls, which were cleaned with a mop and bucket, and the blood that was in the mop He found on the stem, revealing that whoever used the mop had his hands dirty with blood.

The CC2 medical and veterinary witness at the DGAA stated that adult pigs eat a corpse of an 8-year-old human, explaining that if they are 5 or 6 pigs they eat an 8-year-old corpse in 10 or 12 hours and That if the corpse is cut it will be even faster. He said that the pigs eat the corpse completely, making it disappear completely and only leaving residues in the feces that were not digested.


http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

Where does it say the blood was that of Joana? Is that hair or part of the mop in the first picture?
Incidentally, what did they do with the clothes Joana was wearing?
When I get the time, I will google translate the sub-titles on that video.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2017, 07:54:21 PM
Where does it say the blood was that of Joana? Is that hair or part of the mop in the first picture?
Incidentally, what did they do with the clothes Joana was wearing?
When I get the time, I will google translate the sub-titles on that video.

From my original post #68

...it was not possible to determine the DNA of such blood. This is because it was through many other elements of evidence that it was concluded that the blood of the smaller one was collected in the house.

The smaller one being Joana.

The Supreme Court judgement was very clear that blood from the child was left in several places and Leonor attempted to clean it all using bleach. It appears both Leonor and John Cipriano were off their head on drugs and both hit Joana when she came home unexpectedly.  She hit her head badly on a corner of a wall causing fatal injury.  Both were correctly judged guilty imo.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2017, 06:31:31 PM
Of course there was Carana.  From memory there was blood on the door and wall where John Cipriano indicated, blood on shoes under a settee and in a fridge/freezer. 
Video timestamp 5.53

(http://i.imgur.com/xkcyMG8.jpg)

Video timestamp 10.49

(http://i.imgur.com/b0BgrG2.jpg)


Here is some physical evidence you might not have seen before.
Video timestamp 10.00

(http://i.imgur.com/rUYJ54x.jpg)

And further physical evidence
Video timestamp 10.39

(http://i.imgur.com/TdFmfu1.jpg)

Thanks for the images, John. What exactly are they supposed to show in terms of Joana's supposed fate.

Did any of the forensic tests correspond to her a) DNA and b) if so, to any substance that would have indicated that she'd died there in the manner of the PJ theory?

I don't find a photo of Joao pointing to a small freezer unit as indicative of anything other than he was told to point to that unit. How could that have contained a child's body without anyone noticing?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2017, 06:32:13 PM
Oh dear...so much for the no physical evidence claim.  Do you feel foolish now Carana?

Not at all, but thanks for your concern, Angelo.

Have you found any forensic evidence yet?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2017, 06:33:19 PM
All the information is contained in the video misty but in Portuguese.

Which video?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2017, 06:37:02 PM
From my original post #68

...it was not possible to determine the DNA of such blood. This is because it was through many other elements of evidence that it was concluded that the blood of the smaller one was collected in the house.

The smaller one being Joana.

The Supreme Court judgement was very clear that blood from the child was left in several places and Leonor attempted to clean it all using bleach. It appears both Leonor and John Cipriano were off their head on drugs and both hit Joana when she came home unexpectedly.  She hit her head badly on a corner of a wall causing fatal injury.  Both were correctly judged guilty imo.

The police didn't inspect the house until 18 days later or whatever the time lapse was.

And what evidence of the interior of the house having been cleaned with bleach?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: John on August 23, 2017, 11:36:22 PM
The police didn't inspect the house until 18 days later or whatever the time lapse was.

And what evidence of the interior of the house having been cleaned with bleach?

Chemicals were purchased by the Ciprianos after Joana disappeared for that specific purpose.  See appeal transcript.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pi
Post by: Carana on December 21, 2017, 04:44:44 PM
Chemicals were purchased by the Ciprianos after Joana disappeared for that specific purpose.  See appeal transcript.

Are we looking at the same case? According to this, it was Leandro's mother who told her to buy creosote to get rid of bugs on the outside of the house. Leonor couldn't find any and came back with some petroleum-based product (possibly kerosene). It was the mother who dealt with it with a mop.

Sorry for the gobbledygook that's crept in. I'll replace it if I find the passage without them.

A testemunha AA5, mãe de II, declarou que a CC esteve em sua casa desde 5ª feira a domingo, dia 12 de Setembro, indo para a Figueira com a mãe pelas 18 h. Nesse dia à noite (já estava deitada) o II telefonou-lhe a perguntar se estava lá a CC, tendo a testemunha respondido que a CC tinha ido com a mãe, ao que o II a informou que a CC tinha desaparecido. Disse ainda a testemunha que a arguida BB tinha a casa sempre limpa e tratava bem da casa. Num dia, depois de lá ter ido a SIC, reparou que havia carraças à porta de casa e num pilar e disse à BB para ela ir comprar creolina para as matar. A BB comprou petróleo, dizendo que não havia creolina, e foi a própria testemunha que procedeu à limpeza, no exterior da casa, com a esfregona.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on December 23, 2017, 12:49:22 AM
"aad) on 18:09, BB defendant acquired oil and a steel scrubber, with which washed the house, taking advantage to erase nearly all the evidence than there had been, leaving only human blood traces inside the house, contaminated the products used;"

"The CC4 witness, chief inspector of the PJ, confirmed the auto search and seizure of pgs. 173 in the house of BB defendant when found blood residues on the floor, the walls, the bucket and mop and on the sole of a shoes that were in the room. He noted that the remains were very small and it was apparent that the interior of the house had been washed, and not only the floor, noting also the marks of passing the mop on the walls and doors. She indicated that washing the floor and walls contrasted with the rest of the house, which was "filthy" with dirty clothes everywhere and crockery unwashed "15 days""

"On the other hand, acts contained in the auto replenishment are compatible with RBC traces collected in the room (note that the reconstitution takes place in the room), as is clear from search and seizure carried out in self 22.9.2004 (cfr. pgs. 173 and 233 ff), which states that traces were collected on the floor near the front door, outwardly and inwardly along the inner electrical switch to the right of the entrance door at the entrance of the left side of the couch, a pair MM tennis Silva that was between the sofas, in a mop (stalk) and respective bucket. These traces, as made skills are of human blood and human blood and animal (cfr. Pgs. 235), and although they are insufficient to determine who owns via DNA (pgs. 1780 ff), are revealing that this room it happened something terrible,something that gave rise to that there was human blood on the floor and the walls, which were cleaned with a mop and bucket, and the blood that was in the mop was in the stem, revealing that those who used the mop had in turn dirty hands of blood. Thus, traces collected in the room reinforce the reliability of reconstitution."


https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dgsi.pt%2Fjstj.nsf%2F954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814%2Fbfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89%3FOpenDocument%26Highlight%3D0%2Ccipriano
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on December 24, 2017, 08:01:16 PM
Google really doesn't like legal texts... lol

Bit by bit:
aad) on 18:09, BB defendant acquired oil and a steel scrubber, with which washed the house, taking advantage to erase nearly all the evidence than there had been, leaving only human blood traces inside the house, contaminated the products used;

aad) no dia 18.09, a arguida BB adquiriu petróleo e um esfregão de aço, com o que lavou a casa, aproveitando assim para apagar quase todos os indícios do que ali havia ocorrido, restando apenas vestígios de sangue humano no interior da casa, contaminados pelos produtos utilizados;

That's one of the so-called facts accepted by the court.


Ok...

But someone has to explain to me why the court ignored the fact that it was Leandro's mother who'd told Leonor to buy creosote to kill bugs, but who couldn't find any and came back with some petroleum-based similar product (paraffin oil?) instead, whereupon Leandro's mother used the product on the door and "pillar" (pillar? Flagstone?) with a steel brush?

I'll find the date of the purchase receipt. It's in the files somewhere.

The AA 5 witness, the mother of II stated that WC was in his house from 5th to Sunday, September 12, going to Figueira with his mother for 18 h. That day at night (it was already in bed) II called him to ask if there was a DC, and the witness answered that the CC had gone with his mother to the II reported that the CC had disappeared. yet the witness said that the defendant had the BB house always clean and was well of the house. One day, after there have gone SIC, he noticed that there were ticks at the door and a pillar and told her to go buy BB creolina to kill them. BB bought oil, saying there was no creosote, and was the very witness who proceeded to cleaning the exterior of the house, with the mop.

A testemunha AA5, mãe de II, declarou que a CC esteve em sua casa desde 5ª feira a domingo, dia 12 de Setembro, indo para a Figueira com a mãe pelas 18 h. Nesse dia à noite (já estava deitada) o II telefonou-lhe a perguntar se estava lá a CC, tendo a testemunha respondido que a CC tinha ido com a mãe, ao que o II a informou que a CC tinha desaparecido. Disse ainda a testemunha que a arguida BB tinha a casa sempre limpa e tratava bem da casa. Num dia, depois de lá ter ido a SIC, reparou que havia carraças à porta de casa e num pilar e disse à BB para ela ir comprar creolina para as matar. A BB comprou petróleo, dizendo que não havia creolina, e foi a própria testemunha que procedeu à limpeza, no exterior da casa, com a esfregona.


Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on December 24, 2017, 08:16:34 PM
The next bit. CC4 is presumably Tavares de Almeida. To start with, he wasn't a forensic expert. I've never found anything about a proper forensic team in the house.

A forensic team would have been able to see if there had been an attempt to wipe away evidence, as opposed to everyday cleaning activities.

He found a contrast with piles of dirty laundry - well, yes, there was a missing child and the mother had been taken in for the first round of interrogation. The allegation of 2 weeks' worth of dirty laundry / dishes seems somewhat dubious with x people living in a small home, plus all the people popping round.


"The CC4 witness, chief inspector of the PJ, confirmed the auto search and seizure of pgs. 173 in the house of BB defendant when found blood residues on the floor, the walls, the bucket and mop and on the sole of a shoes that were in the room. He noted that the remains were very small and it was apparent that the interior of the house had been washed, and not only the floor, noting also the marks of passing the mop on the walls and doors. She indicated that washing the floor and walls contrasted with the rest of the house, which was "filthy" with dirty clothes everywhere and crockery unwashed "15 days""

A testemunha CC4 , inspector-chefe da PJ, confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173 na casa da arguida BB, quando foram encontrados vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala. Referiu que os vestígios eram muito pequenos e que era visível que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, e não só o chão, notando-se ainda as marcas da passagem da esfregona nas paredes e nas portas. Referiu ainda que esta lavagem do chão e paredes contrastava com o resto da casa, que estava "imunda", com roupa suja por todo o lado e louça por lavar "de 15 dias". A testemunha esteve presente na reconstituição dos factos, como consta de fls. 273 ss, cujo teor confirmou e referiu que na sequência desta reconstituição, seguindo indicações do arguido AA, procuraram o corpo num aterro de terra e noutros locais da Mexilhoeira Grande, numa lixeira, em Poço Barreto, num carro acidentado existente na sucata do padrasto do II, em Silves, etc., locais onde procuraram exaustivamente mas sem êxito. Confirmou que a configuração da casa é a que consta da planta de fls. 294 e que a porta que dá acesso à rua tem um manípulo do lado exterior que permite a entrada imediata na residência. Confirmou que a arguida tinha na sua posse, quando chegou à cadeia de Odemira, o recibo da compra de 1 litro de petróleo e de um esfregão de arame, de que se tentou desfazer, e que foi entregue à PJ pela Directora do EP - confirmou que o recibo é o de fls. 876. Ainda referiu que seguiu a pista de um cidadão marroquino que podia ter levado a CC, segundo indicações da arguida BB, mas veio a apurar que na altura do desaparecimento da CC esse indivíduo estava em França.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on December 24, 2017, 08:18:51 PM
Trying to find the original Portuguese of this. It might be easier than this auto-translate gibberish.


"On the other hand, acts contained in the auto replenishment are compatible with RBC traces collected in the room (note that the reconstitution takes place in the room), as is clear from search and seizure carried out in self 22.9.2004 (cfr. pgs. 173 and 233 ff), which states that traces were collected on the floor near the front door, outwardly and inwardly along the inner electrical switch to the right of the entrance door at the entrance of the left side of the couch, a pair MM tennis Silva that was between the sofas, in a mop (stalk) and respective bucket. These traces, as made skills are of human blood and human blood and animal (cfr. Pgs. 235), and although they are insufficient to determine who owns via DNA (pgs. 1780 ff), are revealing that this room it happened something terrible,something that gave rise to that there was human blood on the floor and the walls, which were cleaned with a mop and bucket, and the blood that was in the mop was in the stem, revealing that those who used the mop had in turn dirty hands of blood. Thus, traces collected in the room reinforce the reliability of reconstitution."

ETA found it.
Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.


Yes, we know that. There were tiny traces of animal and human blood found on the floor, a trace of human blood on the mop handle, and a trace of human blood in the drawer of the fridge or freezer. When isn't known. Who the blood (which could have been a nicked finger) belonged to isn't known.

How on earth could these undated specks (which a black torch would probably reveal in my own home) be consistent with a macabre head-on-wall scenario, chopping up a human body and stuffing the bits in a fridge, taking them out again, in the time frame, without anyone else noticing?


Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 10, 2018, 12:45:24 PM
The notion that an innocent John Cipriano would participate in a reconstruction video as to how he killed his niece and cut up her remains is frankly too ridiculous for words.   $6(&
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2018, 02:13:21 PM
The notion that an innocent John Cipriano would participate in a reconstruction video as to how he killed his niece and cut up her remains is frankly too ridiculous for words.   $6(&

If you can find a fully accountable record of how he'd been treated that's available for public perusal, I might end up agreeing with you.

As it stands, there is simply no solid evidence that I've been able to find that supports that scenario, whether he's in effect guilty of causing her disappearance in one way or another or not.

If that scenario can't be backed up, then I find that it puts into question just how "spontaneous" that reconstruction actually was.




Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 13, 2018, 05:01:20 PM
If you can find a fully accountable record of how he'd been treated that's available for public perusal, I might end up agreeing with you.

As it stands, there is simply no solid evidence that I've been able to find that supports that scenario, whether he's in effect guilty of causing her disappearance in one way or another or not.

If that scenario can't be backed up, then I find that it puts into question just how "spontaneous" that reconstruction actually was.

Why on earth would John Cipriano fake it if he was totally innocent?   There just is no logic in your suggestion even for a halfwit like him.  He knew what the consequences would be for him if he was found guilty after already serving a sentence for attempted murder. He was a hardened criminal, being knocked about by coppers was second nature to him, he expected it imo.

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on January 14, 2018, 08:48:58 PM
Why on earth would John Cipriano fake it if he was totally innocent?   There just is no logic in your suggestion even for a halfwit like him.  He knew what the consequences would be for him if he was found guilty after already serving a sentence for attempted murder. He was a hardened criminal, being knocked about by coppers was second nature to him, he expected it imo.

He's not someone who'd I'd have welcomed with open arms as a prospective son-in-law.

Could he have been guilty of some cirme involving this child? Possibly, yes.

Does that supposedly spontaneous reconstuction make any sense? Not that I can find.

Is there any other evidence that actually makes any sense in that case? Not any than I can fiind.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on January 15, 2018, 12:23:14 AM
He's not someone who'd I'd have welcomed with open arms as a prospective son-in-law.

Could he have been guilty of some cirme involving this child? Possibly, yes.

Does that supposedly spontaneous reconstuction make any sense? Not that I can find.

Is there any other evidence that actually makes any sense in that case? Not any than I can fiind.

There was more than enough circumstantial evidence to convict the Ciprianos but the brother was the main perpetrator by all accounts, why Leonor went along with him may never be known.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2018, 02:45:56 PM
There was more than enough circumstantial evidence to convict the Ciprianos but the brother was the main perpetrator by all accounts, why Leonor went along with him may never be known.

I had presumed so as well, until I waded through the judgments...
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on January 28, 2018, 04:57:43 PM
The bit that stands out for me is why did João Cipriano confess and VOLUNTARILY take part so confidently in a video reconstruction of what he did if he was TOTALLY INNOCENT of any involvement in the death and disappearance of his niece. 

I have yet to hear any valid argument because the old torture nugget just doesn't hold up to scrutiny this time.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2018, 01:03:18 PM
The bit that stands out for me is why did João Cipriano confess and VOLUNTARILY take part so confidently in a video reconstruction of what he did if he was TOTALLY INNOCENT of any involvement in the death and disappearance of his niece. 

I have yet to hear any valid argument because the old torture nugget just doesn't hold up to scrutiny this time.

How would anyone know whether it was voluntary or whether he'd been fed a script to re-enact in exchange for some bluff "advantage", whatever that might have been?

Leonor was beaten up; Leandro stated that he'd been roughed up and that others had been as well... why would they have offered coffee and biscuits to João?  I've no idea whether he was or not, but I just can't imagine why others were but not him.

Nothing to do with the PJ, but Aragão managed to bluff a different "confession" out of him by saying that word was out that others were out to murder him in prison.

Whether he did kill her or not, that scenario simply doesn't make sense to me.

Leonor Cipriano’s lawyer confesses to lying to obtain a confession
by astro 9 years ago
by Maria Augusta Casaca

Lawyer Aragão Correia, who defends Leonor Cipriano, Joana’s mother, told TSF this Tuesday that he lied to obtain a written confession from João Cipriano, who revealed that he tried to sell the child.

Aragão Correia had already requested the opening of a new inquiry after Leonor Cipriano confessed to him that she handed over her daughter to her brother, for him to sell her.

Now, the lawyer revealed that he visited João Cipriano in prison and that the latter confessed that he tried to sell the little girl. But in order to force a confession, in writing, Aragão Correia admitted to bluffing.

The lawyer confessed that he told João Cipriano that the persons who wanted to buy Joana “gave an order to murder him in prison”. “He was very fearful, which confirms that Leonor was telling the truth”, he added.

https://joana-morais.blogspot.co.uk/2009/05/leonor-ciprianos-lawyer-confesses-to.html

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on February 24, 2018, 12:30:00 PM
We already know that this was a child trafficking case gone wrong.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on February 24, 2018, 08:51:01 PM
We already know that this was a child trafficking case gone wrong.

If it went wrong, why was the merchandise got rid of rather than the facilitator being taken out?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on February 27, 2018, 10:17:37 AM
If it went wrong, why was the merchandise got rid of rather than the facilitator being taken out?

The other question is how would that scenario fit with taking her home, chopping her up there and attempting to stuff her remains in the fridge?

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on March 18, 2018, 11:11:52 PM
If it went wrong, why was the merchandise got rid of rather than the facilitator being taken out?

Without doubt the child died because she would not cooperate with her abductor and trafficker. Joana was beyond the age whereby she could be removed from her family and placed with another family and not realise what was happening to her.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on March 19, 2018, 05:19:18 PM
Without doubt the child died because she would not cooperate with her abductor and trafficker. Joana was beyond the age whereby she could be removed from her family and placed with another family and not realise what was happening to her.

I'm not quite following that scenario, John. Joana was sent to the shops but apparently never returned. How many traffickers kill a person who refuses to cooperate, especially a child?
I'd really like to know why the locum priest was never questioned.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on March 20, 2018, 12:14:17 PM
I'm not quite following that scenario, John. Joana was sent to the shops but apparently never returned. How many traffickers kill a person who refuses to cooperate, especially a child?
I'd really like to know why the locum priest was never questioned.

Locum priest, Misty?

I can't remember anything about him offhand, although it does ring a vague bell.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on March 20, 2018, 10:42:09 PM
Locum priest, Misty?

I can't remember anything about him offhand, although it does ring a vague bell.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3031.msg109726#msg109726

Last few paragraphs. Usually when a Priest is away from the parish a locum is seconded.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 22, 2018, 09:01:08 AM
I'm not quite following that scenario, John. Joana was sent to the shops but apparently never returned. How many traffickers kill a person who refuses to cooperate, especially a child?
I'd really like to know why the locum priest was never questioned.

Never returned?

She was seen returning by a neighbour, her shoes were found in the house and both her mother and uncle have admitted she returned.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on March 22, 2018, 10:36:15 AM
Never returned?

She was seen returning by a neighbour, her shoes were found in the house and both her mother and uncle have admitted she returned.

- Someone on a balcony in the village apparently saw her heading towards home.

- No one knows for sure what shoes she was wearing when she went to the shops. The only statement that I've found to the effect that her shoes (whatever those were) were in the house was by someone who didn't live there. No one asked how the witness could have known which shoes she was wearing at the time, nor even how many pairs she had.

- Re Leonor and João "admitting" that, there is no other "evidence" aside from their interrogations under less than limpid circumstances.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on March 29, 2018, 12:21:07 PM
- Someone on a balcony in the village apparently saw her heading towards home.

- No one knows for sure what shoes she was wearing when she went to the shops. The only statement that I've found to the effect that her shoes (whatever those were) were in the house was by someone who didn't live there. No one asked how the witness could have known which shoes she was wearing at the time, nor even how many pairs she had.

- Re Leonor and João "admitting" that, there is no other "evidence" aside from their interrogations under less than limpid circumstances.

Why on earth would Joana's mother and uncle admit she came home if she hadn't?  Don't you see the irony?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on March 29, 2018, 01:31:12 PM
Why on earth would Joana's mother and uncle admit she came home if she hadn't?  Don't you see the irony?

How on earth could they have supposedly been busy having incestuous sex / not given the shopping change back resulting in non-existent traces of her blood and other traces of her demise on walls and in the fridge if she hadn't?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on March 29, 2018, 02:26:18 PM
How on earth could they have supposedly been busy having incestuous sex / not given the shopping change back resulting in non-existent traces of her blood and other traces of her demise on walls and in the fridge if she hadn't?

Minute traces of human blood were found on the door jamb even though an attempt had been made to remove them using bleach.  The uncle admitted this in his video testimony.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on March 29, 2018, 02:54:13 PM
Minute traces of human blood were found on the door jamb even though an attempt had been made to remove them using bleach.  The uncle admitted this in his video testimony.

What door jamb?

Where did this bleach idea come from?

A spatter analysis would have revealed obvious cleaning attempts. Where's the evidence of this?

A black torch would have revealed not only blood but any biological trace... including sweat. In a household with 3 children and 4 adults, the odd speck of blood is hardly unusual, anyway, whoever it belonged to.

And they only got around to even waving a torch around 18 days later while everyone else continued to live there, plus the visit of other family members and friends. Without adequate forensic analysis, it's meaningless.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2018, 04:37:25 PM
Minute traces of human blood were found on the door jamb even though an attempt had been made to remove them using bleach.  The uncle admitted this in his video testimony.

Did Joao explain in that video just how he transported Joana's dismembered remains back to the house to store in the freezer?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on March 29, 2018, 07:28:31 PM
Did Joao explain in that video just how he transported Joana's dismembered remains back to the house to store in the freezer?

Yes
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on March 29, 2018, 07:33:29 PM
What door jamb?

Where did this bleach idea come from?

A spatter analysis would have revealed obvious cleaning attempts. Where's the evidence of this?

A black torch would have revealed not only blood but any biological trace... including sweat. In a household with 3 children and 4 adults, the odd speck of blood is hardly unusual, anyway, whoever it belonged to.

And they only got around to even waving a torch around 18 days later while everyone else continued to live there, plus the visit of other family members and friends. Without adequate forensic analysis, it's meaningless.

It's all there in the very comprehensive Supreme Court Report documents but to help you...

According to João Cipriano the assault occurred in the kitchen of the family home.

Leonor Cipriano went out and purchased cleaning materials after the disappearance was reported.  Residue from these material was found in various locations including the kitchen wall and door frame.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on March 29, 2018, 10:13:13 PM
It's all there in the very comprehensive Supreme Court Report documents but to help you...

According to João Cipriano the assault occurred in the kitchen of the family home.

Leonor Cipriano went out and purchased cleaning materials after the disappearance was reported.  Residue from these material was found in various locations including the kitchen wall and door frame.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

That's kind of you, John.

I've been through it more than once. Could you point me to a specific part of what you're referring to?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on March 29, 2018, 11:58:56 PM
Yes

Do you recall what he said please, as the video link no longer works?
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: sadie on March 30, 2018, 05:28:18 PM
- Someone on a balcony in the village apparently saw her heading towards home.

- No one knows for sure what shoes she was wearing when she went to the shops. The only statement that I've found to the effect that her shoes (whatever those were) were in the house was by someone who didn't live there. No one asked how the witness could have known which shoes she was wearing at the time, nor even how many pairs she had.

- Re Leonor and João "admitting" that, there is no other "evidence" aside from their interrogations under less than limpid circumstances.
My memory is that someone on a balcony saw Joana climb the steps up to the village church.  There is a plaza in front of the church with three sets of steps up.  The main ones are the steps on the front (eastern side) and these are the steps that Joana is likely to have climbed because they are on her route back from the shop.

I have been in that church, two interesting things inside, for me at least. 
But more interesting to me was the fact that on the same plaza is an infant / ?junior school. 

Was that Joanas school, at a younger age and maybe currently ?   For GE users it has a blue roof, a small playground and is tucked in the northern corner of the plaza...

...  and there is a semi hidden pathway between the church and the school.  No one over looks that pathway, it is in a very quiet place and the middle part is hidden.

Did Joana vanish there?


Or did someone with access to the playground invite Joana to go in and play on the swings or whatever was there at the time?
   I remember big toys such as swings, but the current GE street scene images are different to what I saw in 2010.   Or maybe it was on my second visit a couple of years later?

Was Joana abducted from that hidden pathway or maybe from the swings?  Was she with someone that she trusted?   No houses overlook that pathway, nor parts of the playground.  No reason to go there after dark, so it is very quiet.  But hidden (non overlooked) parking is immediately adjacent.

 *%6^  I would love to know who the locum priest was.  Also who the teacher at the infants school was?   

Anyone know ?   I wonder if they have ben looked at?

Mainly facts ... but anything else is from my querying mind, or is in my opinion
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on April 02, 2018, 12:46:00 AM
It's all there in the very comprehensive Supreme Court Report documents but to help you...

According to João Cipriano the assault occurred in the kitchen of the family home.

Leonor Cipriano went out and purchased cleaning materials after the disappearance was reported.  Residue from these material was found in various locations including the kitchen wall and door frame.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano

I can't find what you're referring to in that judgment.

From the witness statements
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.0

A testemunha AA5, mãe de II, declarou que a CC esteve em sua casa desde 5ª feira a domingo, dia 12 de Setembro, indo para a Figueira com a mãe pelas 18 h. Nesse dia à noite (já estava deitada) o II telefonou-lhe a perguntar se estava lá a CC, tendo a testemunha respondido que a CC tinha ido com a mãe, ao que o II a informou que a CC tinha desaparecido. Disse ainda a testemunha que a arguida BB tinha a casa sempre limpa e tratava bem da casa. Num dia, depois de lá ter ido a SIC, reparou que havia carraças à porta de casa e num pilar e disse à BB para ela ir comprar creolina para as matar. A BB comprou petróleo, dizendo que não havia creolina, e foi a própria testemunha que procedeu à limpeza, no exterior da casa, com a esfregona.

AA5 is Leandro's mother. She was the one who'd noticed bugs on the door and a pillar and told Leonor to go buy some creosote. The shop didn't have any, and gave her "petróleo" (a petroleum-based product, possibly paraffin), and it was Leandro's mother who used the product on the outside of the house with a wire brush.


A testemunha CC4 , inspector-chefe da P.J., confirmou o auto de busca e apreensão de fls. 173 na casa da arguida BB, quando foram encontrados vestígios hemáticos no chão, nas paredes, no balde e esfregona e na sola de umas sapatilhas que estavam na sala. Referiu que os vestígios eram muito pequenos e que era visível que o interior da habitação tinha sido lavado, e não só o chão, notando-se ainda as marcas da passagem da esfregona nas paredes e nas portas. Referiu ainda que esta lavagem do chão e paredes contrastava com o resto da casa, que estava "imunda", com roupa suja por todo o lado e louça por lavar "de 15 dias". A testemunha esteve presente na reconstituição dos factos, como consta de fls. 273 ss, cujo teor confirmou e referiu que na sequência desta reconstituição, seguindo indicações do arguido AA, procuraram o corpo num aterro de terra e noutros locais da Mexilhoeira Grande, numa lixeira, em Poço Barreto, num carro acidentado existente na sucata do padrasto do II, em Silves, etc., locais onde procuraram exaustivamente mas sem êxito. Confirmou que a configuração da casa é a que consta da planta de fls. 294 e que a porta que dá acesso à rua tem um manípulo do lado exterior que permite a entrada imediata na residência. Confirmou que a arguida tinha na sua posse, quando chegou à cadeia de Odemira, o recibo da compra de 1 litro de petróleo e de um esfregão de arame, de que se tentou desfazer, e que foi entregue à P.J. pela Directora do E.P. - confirmou que o recibo é o de fls. 876. Ainda referiu que seguiu a pista de um cidadão marroquino que podia ter levado a CC, segundo indicações da arguida BB, mas veio a apurar que na altura do desaparecimento da CC esse indivíduo estava em França.


CC4 is the chief inspector (TdeA?). Confirms that she had a receipt in her bag for a litre of "petróleo" (the paraffinn stuff) and a wire brush.

Whatever "petróleo" actually is, kerosene or paraffin, it ain't bleach and it was the mother-in-law who used it to kill off the bugs outside.

And I can't find anything about a receipt for bleach in there.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on April 07, 2018, 11:55:12 PM
Do you recall what he said please, as the video link no longer works?

Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on April 08, 2018, 12:06:31 AM
That's kind of you, John.

I've been through it more than once. Could you point me to a specific part of what you're referring to?

"15- that defendant BB used detergent and bleach in the washing of the wall and floor where signs of blood from the CC were;"

"Also worthy of note was the purchase by the defendant of oil and a steel scrubber (pages 876), with which she washed the house on September 18, and witnesses CC3 and CC4 reported that the cleaning of the floor and walls of the house contrasted with the state of dirt from the rest of the house"

"aad) on 18.09, defendant BB acquired oil and a steel mop, with which she washed the house, thus taking advantage to erase almost all the evidence of what had happened there, leaving only traces of human blood inside the house, contaminated products used;"

Defendant BB is Leonor Cipriano, mother of the murdered girl.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: misty on April 08, 2018, 12:34:55 AM
"15- that defendant BB used detergent and bleach in the washing of the wall and floor where signs of blood from the CC were;"

"Also worthy of note was the purchase by the defendant of oil and a steel scrubber (pages 876), with which she washed the house on September 18, and witnesses CC3 and CC4 reported that the cleaning of the floor and walls of the house contrasted with the state of dirt from the rest of the house"

"aad) on 18.09, defendant BB acquired oil and a steel mop, with which she washed the house, thus taking advantage to erase almost all the evidence of what had happened there, leaving only traces of human blood inside the house, contaminated products used;"

Defendant BB is Leonor Cipriano, mother of the murdered girl.

http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg106321#msg106321

Not proved.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on April 12, 2018, 01:49:51 PM

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg106321#msg106321

Not proved.

To a high legal standard no but very likely all the same.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on April 13, 2018, 11:45:34 AM
To a high legal standard no but very likely all the same.

So is it fair to say that you haven't found where the idea that kerosene = bleach came from aside from someone's imagination, either?


- The step-mother testified that she noticed bugs on a pillar (photos don't show any indoor pillar, so I assume the area is outside).
- She sent Leonor off to buy creosote, but the shop didn't have any, and she came back with kerosene, which also has pesticidal properties. *
- The step-mother then duly brushed down the area with the kerosene and a wire brush.
- This was 6 days after Joana disappeared.

So... for a whole week, no one living in or visiting the house noticed bloody prints on the inside?
Just how likely is that?



* Kerosene is an effective pesticide, killing a large variety of insects, notably bed bugs and head lice. It can also be applied to standing pools of water to kill mosquito larvae. It covers the insects' respiratory spiracles with a thin film of oil, which prevents the exchange of oxygen, smothering the insects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on April 21, 2018, 07:47:57 PM
So is it fair to say that you haven't found where the idea that kerosene = bleach came from aside from someone's imagination, either?


- The step-mother testified that she noticed bugs on a pillar (photos don't show any indoor pillar, so I assume the area is outside).
- She sent Leonor off to buy creosote, but the shop didn't have any, and she came back with kerosene, which also has pesticidal properties. *
- The step-mother then duly brushed down the area with the kerosene and a wire brush.
- This was 6 days after Joana disappeared.

So... for a whole week, no one living in or visiting the house noticed bloody prints on the inside?
Just how likely is that?



* Kerosene is an effective pesticide, killing a large variety of insects, notably bed bugs and head lice. It can also be applied to standing pools of water to kill mosquito larvae. It covers the insects' respiratory spiracles with a thin film of oil, which prevents the exchange of oxygen, smothering the insects.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene

Could be the kerosene was used to disguise the area cleaned previously.  The exact sequence of events are so obscure because of the numerous lies told by Leonor Cipriano that we might never know what really went on during that first week. 

Needless to say, any truly innocent mother of a missing child will cooperate fully and honestly with the police charged with finding him or her and not spin a load of lies and half truths in order to frustrate the enquiry at every opportunity.

What we know of the Joana Cipriano case clearly indicates family involvement in that poor little girls disappearance.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 21, 2018, 09:44:56 PM
Could be the kerosene was used to disguise the area cleaned previously.  The exact sequence of events are so obscure because of the numerous lies told by Leonor Cipriano that we might never know what really went on during that first week. 

Needless to say, any truly innocent mother of a missing child will cooperate fully and honestly with the police charged with finding him or her and not spin a load of lies and half truths in order to frustrate the enquiry at every opportunity.

What we know of the Joana Cipriano case clearly indicates family involvement in that poor little girls disappearance.

I find it shameful that anyone would want to lend any support to this murderous pair for a moment.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on April 22, 2018, 11:05:22 AM
I find it shameful that anyone would want to lend any support to this murderous pair for a moment.

I have problems understanding why some on this forum (miscarriage of justice, after all) is so unwilling tto accept that the evidence for this case was so flimsy that it should never have been brought to trial in the first place.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 24, 2018, 02:49:38 PM
I have problems understanding why some on this forum (miscarriage of justice, after all) is so unwilling tto accept that the evidence for this case was so flimsy that it should never have been brought to trial in the first place.

Flimsy?   Both Ciprianos admit to killing Joana on different occasions and you find it difficult to understand why they were prosecuted.
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: Carana on April 24, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
Flimsy?   Both Ciprianos admit to killing Joana on different occasions and you find it difficult to understand why they were prosecuted.

Yes, they did, but in unaccountable circumstances. (IMO)

What else is there in terms of evidence?

The short-lived investigation revealed nothing of substance, IMO, unless you've found something that I haven't.

And with a questionable defense. (IMO)
Title: Re: Video: Uncle reveals how Joana Cipriano was murdered and later fed to the pigs.
Post by: John on April 30, 2018, 01:03:29 PM
Yes, they did, but in unaccountable circumstances. (IMO)

What else is there in terms of evidence?

The short-lived investigation revealed nothing of substance, IMO, unless you've found something that I haven't.

And with a questionable defense. (IMO)

I have no doubt that both Ciprianos had involvement to one extent or another in Joana's demise, the actual chain of events however might never be known.