Author Topic: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence  (Read 63986 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« on: April 25, 2020, 08:05:21 AM »
Hi Holly,

I generally hold Scott Lomax in low regard but he does get the silencer evidence right. JB had two excellent, experienced QCs and Roger Wilkes wrote of how they steered him away from conspiracy theories for a very good reason. ( I believe JBs "it's dangerous to speculate" comment with regards to RBs motives was a phrase they drummed into him)

The blood flake wasn't supposedly found, it was found and grouped to match Sheila's blood type.The remote possibility of an intimate mix was just that, remote, but Bamber had hobsons choice to take it or else allege a dastardly fabrication which would have made him appear more than desperate. Arlidge would have made mincemeat of him.

How could he have been so sure the silencer was not on the gun that night if he wasn't there? How could he know that SC hadn't found the moderator and attached it before returning it to the cupboard? How could he be sure of this when the evidence of the forensic experts had identified human blood inside of it, mimicking back spatter? The cross examination would have been devastating.

He simply could not dispute the expert evidence then or now, and as I believe you have posted before, the moderator remains the single most damaging piece of evidence to his claims of innocence IMO.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2020, 08:20:13 AM »


I think JB's defence at trial was very poor.  The QC's may have been experienced but what experience did they have with cases involving firearms?  They certainly didn't have experience of a mass shooting as WHF is the only unwitnessed case during peacetime.

I disagree that the strategy at trial was the right one.  JB said he used the rifle on the eve of the murders sans silencer.  The silencer was found on SC's body sans silencer, so why would anyone think it a good idea and attempt to choreograph a correlation between the silencer and crime instead of repudiating it?

Admin on Blue, a non-practising criminal barrister, had this to say about it:
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2020, 08:37:03 AM »
JB was effectively told by Rivlin what line should be followed by the defence at trial.  JB in reality had very little say in the matter.  The Bar Code of Conduct would not have prevented Rivlin from presenting the possibility of dishonest or criminal conduct on the part of prosecution witnesses since there was a sufficient evidential basis to do that (albeit with care).  However Rivlin opposed that strategy because he thought the prosecution case was tenuous and an acquital was anticipated upon the basis of reasonable doubt.  He did not want to cloud the issue by basing the defence upon a proposition which required the jury to disbelieve family members and some police officers.  With hindisight (and some would say even without the benefit of hindsight) this strategy was wrong.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2020, 08:38:37 AM »
There was opportunity and there were also admissions about the attempt to unscrew the silencer and the use of a razor blade to scrape blood.  There was evidence of blood stained clothing removed from the house.  There was sufficient to permit cross examination about this and if the possibilities had been explored in cross examination it would have been possible to present this to the jury as a possibility to be considered.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2020, 08:40:00 AM »
You misunderstand the rules of evidence and the Bar Code of Conduct.  There was nothing to stop Rivlin going down this route, it was a tactical decision which in my view was wrong.  Rivlin did not need to rest his entire defence upon the possibility of deliberate or accidental contamination of the silencer, he only needed to lay the basis for presenting it to the jury as a possibilty.  Instead he conceded that that the silencer must have been fitted to the rifle at some stage in the shootings and that concession was extremely damaging to JB.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2020, 08:41:36 AM »
With respect you do misunderstand.  There does not need to be any direct evidence to support a defence proposition.  The defence are entitled to present whatever arguments they like, however unlikely they may appear.  The only limitation on this is that if the defence want to suggest that a prosecution witness has lied or is guilty of interfering with evidence that witness must be given an opportunity to answer the allegation, i.e. defence counsel has an obligation to put the suggestion to the witness in cross examination.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2020, 08:43:30 AM »
Bridget, you are really digging a deeper hole for yourself now.  A reasonable ground can be an inference which may be drawn from the surrounding circumstances.  In this case just dealing with the silencer evidence: i) JB denied being responsible for the murders therefore the defence case was that Sheila had to be responsible, ii) the rifle was discovered by police without the silencer fitted, iii) the silencer was subsequently said to have been found by a relative days later in a box in the cupboard under the stairs, iii) the silencer was removed from WHF, examined and handled by several of the relatives and retained by them for several days, iv) the FSS found blood inside the silencer which was either Sheila's or, less likely, a mixture of Nevill's and June's, v) items of Sheila' bloodstained underwear were removed by a relative from WHF, vi) although possible, the suggestion that Shela had used the rifle with the silencer fitted initially then removed it, placed it in the box in the cupboard and then shot herself, was an unlikely scenario, vi) the only other explanation for the presence of the blood inside the silencer was contamination, either accidental or deliberate.

Against that background Rivlin would have been perfectly entitled to raise the suggestion of contamination, even deliberate contamination, because that was an inference which might be drawn from the evidence.  I would go further and say that if Jeremy had insisted Rivlin would have been under an obligation to put such allegations to witnesses and he would have been in breach of the Code of Conduct if he had refused to do so.

There was a high profile case in the 1970s, an IRA bomb trial at the Old Bailey.  The head of my chambers was appearing for one of the accused.  The evidence against him was that his fingerprints had been discovered on a timer found at the address used by the bombers.  The defendant's instructions were i) that he was not involved in the bombing, ii) that he had never seen the timer and had certainly not touched it and had never been at the address where the timer was found.  There was no doubt that the fingerprints were a perfect match for the defendant.  In the light of those instructions the only basis upon which defence counsel could challenge the prosecution case was by directly alleging that the police had planted the figerprints.  He demonstrated that it was possible to take a lift of a finerprint on a glass using sellotape, then deposit it on another surface.  The deendant was not surprisingly convicted but counsel had done what he was obliged to deo.  The trial judge was the notorious Mr Justice Melford Stephenson.  He was of a similar view to Bridget in that he claimed that defence counsel who had pursued this defence had done so without reasonable grounds.  He directed that their fees be cut and he reported them to the Bar Counsel.  Defence counsel appealed the fees order and sought a ruling from the Bar Counsel.  The Bar Counsel robustly supported the position of defence counsel, in a blistering criticism of the judge.  The fees reduction was also overturned.

The above example is of a case where the evidential basis for the defence presented was far lower than existed in JB's case in relation to the possibilty of contamination of the silencer.

I do know what I am talking about Bridget, trust me! ;D
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 08:49:05 AM »
If anyone wishes to read the posts in context of the thread they can do so here:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4121.msg169803.html#msg169803
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Nicholas

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 08:53:33 AM »
Bridget, you are really digging a deeper hole for yourself now.  A reasonable ground can be an inference which may be drawn from the surrounding circumstances.  In this case just dealing with the silencer evidence: i) JB denied being responsible for the murders therefore the defence case was that Sheila had to be responsible, ii) the rifle was discovered by police without the silencer fitted, iii) the silencer was subsequently said to have been found by a relative days later in a box in the cupboard under the stairs, iii) the silencer was removed from WHF, examined and handled by several of the relatives and retained by them for several days, iv) the FSS found blood inside the silencer which was either Sheila's or, less likely, a mixture of Nevill's and June's, v) items of Sheila' bloodstained underwear were removed by a relative from WHF, vi) although possible, the suggestion that Shela had used the rifle with the silencer fitted initially then removed it, placed it in the box in the cupboard and then shot herself, was an unlikely scenario, vi) the only other explanation for the presence of the blood inside the silencer was contamination, either accidental or deliberate.

Against that background Rivlin would have been perfectly entitled to raise the suggestion of contamination, even deliberate contamination, because that was an inference which might be drawn from the evidence.  I would go further and say that if Jeremy had insisted Rivlin would have been under an obligation to put such allegations to witnesses and he would have been in breach of the Code of Conduct if he had refused to do so.

There was a high profile case in the 1970s, an IRA bomb trial at the Old Bailey.  The head of my chambers was appearing for one of the accused.  The evidence against him was that his fingerprints had been discovered on a timer found at the address used by the bombers.  The defendant's instructions were i) that he was not involved in the bombing, ii) that he had never seen the timer and had certainly not touched it and had never been at the address where the timer was found.  There was no doubt that the fingerprints were a perfect match for the defendant.  In the light of those instructions the only basis upon which defence counsel could challenge the prosecution case was by directly alleging that the police had planted the figerprints.  He demonstrated that it was possible to take a lift of a finerprint on a glass using sellotape, then deposit it on another surface.  The deendant was not surprisingly convicted but counsel had done what he was obliged to deo.  The trial judge was the notorious Mr Justice Melford Stephenson.  He was of a similar view to Bridget in that he claimed that defence counsel who had pursued this defence had done so without reasonable grounds.  He directed that their fees be cut and he reported them to the Bar Counsel.  Defence counsel appealed the fees order and sought a ruling from the Bar Counsel.  The Bar Counsel robustly supported the position of defence counsel, in a blistering criticism of the judge.  The fees reduction was also overturned.

The above example is of a case where the evidential basis for the defence presented was far lower than existed in JB's case in relation to the possibilty of contamination of the silencer.

I do know what I am talking about Bridget, trust me! ;D


 @)(++(*

Of course they did
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 09:07:36 AM »
@)(++(*

Of course they did

Have you reason to believe they didn't?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 09:18:51 AM »
I can see the point but is it possible a "non practising barrister" isn't practising because he isn't very good?

Rivlin and Lawson were both top QCs and understood that trials are not just about facts and evidence but some theatre too.

As unlikely as it sounds, Sheila finding the silencer, shooting everyone except herself and then putting it back in the cupboard was the only real option for Bamber save for some weak suggestion of accidental contamination.

Otherwise, he is confidently ignoring the expert scientific evidence and alleging serious charges of perverting justice against the Boutflours/police based on a conspiracy theory. He was already claiming a number of others had lied about him, some with motive and some without.

The issues you raised above were explored to the extent they could be; I am a little confused about DBs attempts to unscrew the moderator but AFAIK, that's all that was admitted to, an attempt. Likewise, if they did attempt to scrape blood with a razor blade,  this would be the exact opposite of a frame as they would be destroying evidence.

As for accidental contamination, this was also explored to the bounds of any credible defence.RB denied handling the mod and denied having any cuts. The idea that a bucket containing watered down menstrual blood could have been the source of a dried flake found trapped between the baffle plates is laughable - what would the expert witnesses answer have been? 

As the 2002 appeal judgement makes clear, JB was also keen to avoid any mention of his intention to sell the farms, including the land that NB had secretly purchased and so could not supply a motive for this dastardly and unlikely plot

Did the relatives know SCs blood group? Did they know RB was a group match?

Did they know there were no photos of the underside of the mantel?

The short answer ( brevity isn't my strong suit !) is simply that Arlidge would have ridiculed any serious attempt to raise a conspiracy and left the jury with the impression that Bamber was simply desperate.

 

Offline APRIL

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2020, 09:34:10 AM »
I can see the point but is it possible a "non practising barrister" isn't practising because he isn't very good?

Rivlin and Lawson were both top QCs and understood that trials are not just about facts and evidence but some theatre too.

As unlikely as it sounds, Sheila finding the silencer, shooting everyone except herself and then putting it back in the cupboard was the only real option for Bamber save for some weak suggestion of accidental contamination.

Otherwise, he is confidently ignoring the expert scientific evidence and alleging serious charges of perverting justice against the Boutflours/police based on a conspiracy theory. He was already claiming a number of others had lied about him, some with motive and some without.

The issues you raised above were explored to the extent they could be; I am a little confused about DBs attempts to unscrew the moderator but AFAIK, that's all that was admitted to, an attempt. Likewise, if they did attempt to scrape blood with a razor blade,  this would be the exact opposite of a frame as they would be destroying evidence.

As for accidental contamination, this was also explored to the bounds of any credible defence.RB denied handling the mod and denied having any cuts. The idea that a bucket containing watered down menstrual blood could have been the source of a dried flake found trapped between the baffle plates is laughable - what would the expert witnesses answer have been? 

As the 2002 appeal judgement makes clear, JB was also keen to avoid any mention of his intention to sell the farms, including the land that NB had secretly purchased and so could not supply a motive for this dastardly and unlikely plot

Did the relatives know SCs blood group? Did they know RB was a group match?

Did they know there were no photos of the underside of the mantel?

The short answer ( brevity isn't my strong suit !) is simply that Arlidge would have ridiculed any serious attempt to raise a conspiracy and left the jury with the impression that Bamber was simply desperate.


Practicing or non-practicing, good, bad, or mediocre, it appears all 'expert' opinions differ regarding this case.

A posy oozing commonsense, Common sense.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2020, 09:39:29 AM »
I can see the point but is it possible a "non practising barrister" isn't practising because he isn't very good?

Rivlin and Lawson were both top QCs and understood that trials are not just about facts and evidence but some theatre too.

As unlikely as it sounds, Sheila finding the silencer, shooting everyone except herself and then putting it back in the cupboard was the only real option for Bamber save for some weak suggestion of accidental contamination.

Otherwise, he is confidently ignoring the expert scientific evidence and alleging serious charges of perverting justice against the Boutflours/police based on a conspiracy theory. He was already claiming a number of others had lied about him, some with motive and some without.

The issues you raised above were explored to the extent they could be; I am a little confused about DBs attempts to unscrew the moderator but AFAIK, that's all that was admitted to, an attempt. Likewise, if they did attempt to scrape blood with a razor blade,  this would be the exact opposite of a frame as they would be destroying evidence.

As for accidental contamination, this was also explored to the bounds of any credible defence.RB denied handling the mod and denied having any cuts. The idea that a bucket containing watered down menstrual blood could have been the source of a dried flake found trapped between the baffle plates is laughable - what would the expert witnesses answer have been? 

As the 2002 appeal judgement makes clear, JB was also keen to avoid any mention of his intention to sell the farms, including the land that NB had secretly purchased and so could not supply a motive for this dastardly and unlikely plot

Did the relatives know SCs blood group? Did they know RB was a group match?

Did they know there were no photos of the underside of the mantel?

The short answer ( brevity isn't my strong suit !) is simply that Arlidge would have ridiculed any serious attempt to raise a conspiracy and left the jury with the impression that Bamber was simply desperate.

The non-practising criminal barrister left to pursue business interests.  Afaik he has a law degree from King's and was a pupil under Sir Stephen Seddon so no reason to believe he wasn't at least as competent as Geoffrey Rivlin and the late ED Lawson.  Interestingly Rivlin quit advocacy shortly after JB's case to take up the role of judge.  Did he lose his appetite having made such a pigs ear of JB's case?  Conversely Anthony Arlidge QC, the prosecutor, is I believe still in the game today despite his advanced years.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2020, 09:52:07 AM »
The NPB didn't have sight of all the evidence and neither did he have the benefit of pre trial conference with JB to judge his competence in defending an onslaught he would have brought upon himself.

JBs performance in the witness box, particularly his infamous "that's for you to prove" remark would suggest Rivlin knew he would be fighting fires and thought it better not to throw lit matches into the proceedings.

It's quite natural for career pole lawyers to want to progress to being a judge and onto the Queen's bench and a knighthood- The pressure of becoming and remaining a top QC can be immense. Harry Ogden reveals this candidly in his biography. Others prefer the cut and thrust of advocacy and never want to sit on the bench.

Offline Nicholas

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2020, 10:12:20 AM »
Have you reason to believe they didn't?

The Criminal Cases Review Commission wasn’t around in the 70’s Holly
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation