New Brett Interview

[Nicholas]

I think perhaps he just really does regret being involved in something like that (being in your 20s is so different from being in your 60s) and so it's just easier for him to deny it than to admit he was involved.

If he regretted being involved with Bamber he didn’t give that impression

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on how and why you see it as ‘easier for him to deny it than to admit he was involved’

Based on the contents of Brett’s replies there appeared to be some cognitive dissonance going on

[Nicholas]

‘I first met him in New Zealand. I was renting a flat below my house to an air steward who (something) in New Zealand and they both met in Hong Kong.
Jeremy was coming to New Zealand with a diving course and they seemed to get on over a few days. So he invited Jeremy to stay in the flat, which I owned because he was doing international flights which meant he was going to be away for a few weeks. So I met Jeremy when he arrived in Aukland and I let him stay in the flat for about a month’

Did Brett mean Bamber and this air steward met in Hong Kong and the air steward had suggested to Bamber to come and stay with him - in a flat which was owned by Brett?

It’s confusing

Where did Bamber stay when he first arrived in Auckland, New Zealand ?

‘Jeremy was coming to New Zealand with a diving course and they seemed to get on over a few days’

Was this other bloke also doing a diving course?

And what about the alleged person in this letter
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11197.msg572685#msg572685

Does Brett remember Bamber flying to Fiji?

[KayPage1990]

Yes, Bamber and the air steward met in Hong Kong. I took it to mean that it was arranged that Bamber would stay there BEFORE he left Hong Kong.

He met the air steward in Hong Kong and was offered the apartment Brett owned because the air steward was away with work.

I don't think he regretted being involved with Bamber, I think he perhaps regretted getting swept up in things AFTER the murders. I think perhaps he can now see how cold the selling of antiques seemed and how awful it was to attempt to sell the images. I think perhaps he regrets THAT and as I said if I hadn't known he'd been involved in that I probably would have believed him.

Almost like he sincerely believed it.

To be honest (RE: Julie) I think it was a combination of everything. I do think that she'd started to realise it wasn't the fairy tale she'd hoped and had begun having concerns with his behavior.

From what I've read and learnt from other people, I'm inclined to think it was an entirely unhealthy relationship and that for whatever reason it just hit its tipping point. I believe that she'd started to see what was really going on but perhaps it ended more suddenly than she thought it would.

I was led to believe that Jeremy and Brett's relationship was purely friendly when they were together after the murders. Tactile but platonic. But I personally buy into the idea that it doesn't overly affect anything. It doesn't much matter if there was something more between them, other than giving Brett a reason to distance himself further.

Over the weekend I will read through all the follow-ups for Brett and start to draft a list of questions for him :) I didn't think of half of these at the time because the interview itself was 1hr20 haha. But I will follow them up for you.

I have two client deadlines today haha so you not hear from me until very late or early tomorrow.

[Nicholas]

Yes, Bamber and the air steward met in Hong Kong. I took it to mean that it was arranged that Bamber would stay there BEFORE he left Hong Kong.

He met the air steward in Hong Kong and was offered the apartment Brett owned because the air steward was away with work.

Yes I took it to mean it was already arranged Bamber would stay at the air stewards flat (apparently owned by Brett) in which case it sounds as though it was initially the air steward who agreed with Bamber he could stay with him in the flat but it was Brett who had the final say - or this is how Brett wants it to appear?

’and they seemed to get on over a few days’

suggests Bamber had already stayed with the air steward - unless they were in Hong Kong for a few days and spent time together there?

A first name for the air steward might be helpful and a bit more clarification

As previously mentioned - Julie refers to someone called ‘Jeff’ in one of her witness statements and of a photograph Bamber had of this guy

Again would be helpful if Brett was asked if he recalls someone called Jeff and if he knows anymore to the story of Jeff and Bamber’s relationship with him

[Nicholas]

I don't think he regretted being involved with Bamber, I think he perhaps regretted getting swept up in things AFTER the murders. I think perhaps he can now see how cold the selling of antiques seemed and how awful it was to attempt to sell the images. I think perhaps he regrets THAT and as I said if I hadn't known he'd been involved in that I probably would have believed him.

Almost like he sincerely believed it.

Based on the contents of his interview with you - no it doesn’t sound as though Brett has any or many regrets of having met Bamber and at times (based on the content of his replies to you) he still appears to be looking for excuses for the murders to have been committed by someone else

He gives the overall impression he still hasn’t fully come to terms with what his once friend and lover did that night - or maybe he feels indifferent about what happened or simply doesn’t care of give it much thought?

For me, him denying any involvement with the attempted selling of the photographs of Sheila after all these years makes him appear insensitive and cruel -especially now he’s denied any knowledge of them fullstop.

I get the sense he doesn’t really care what Bamber’s doing ie; still conning others and again for me it makes some of what Brett says pointless

I don’t believe he’s forgotten about these events - I’m not sure how he would be able to forget them given there are constant reminders of his name alongside Bamber’s online and the numerous TV shows over the years and I suspect one of the first questions he’s asked by people who know the case is about those photos

[Nicholas]

I was led to believe that Jeremy and Brett's relationship was purely friendly when they were together after the murders. Tactile but platonic. But I personally buy into the idea that it doesn't overly affect anything. It doesn't much matter if there was something more between them, other than giving Brett a reason to distance himself further.

Maybe some context will help

Jeremy Bamber met Brett Collins before he met Julie Mugford

And when Bamber met Julie he didn’t appear to make her aware he was sexually attracted to men or that he had for example been in a sexual relationship with Brett Collins

Plus there was also someone called ‘Jeff’ - who some people put down to as a ‘rumour’

Where's the evidence he had sexual relationships with males?  Of course it was easy for a rumour to take hold about a Jeff in NZ as it wasn't easy to corroborate and Afaik never has been.

There was also someone called Ray apparently

JM’s witness statement
“He replied that he had had a gay relationship with Ray but that it was a one off and would never happen again. On the same occasion we also discussed Brett. Jeremy asked me why I was not worried about him. I said I had no worries because Brett was so unattractive. Jeremy agreed with me.

Julie only appears to have learned about Bamber’s sexual attraction to men around the time of the murders

Did Brett fall in love with Bamber?

Only he can answer this but he does seem to be saying he thinks Bamber is sexually attracted to men and not women

Brett stated:
‘Originally there was more to our friendship when I first met him because I was bisexual also, and we just hit it off, way before I have met his girlfriend. His girlfriend and he weren't actually what you'd call monogamous friendship. He had several girls at the same time, that all thought that they were his girlfriend. He was quite different in his sexuality.

You say,

‘I was led to believe that Jeremy and Brett's relationship was purely friendly when they were together after the murder. Tactile but platonic’

But things aren’t always what we are led to believe. Appearances can be deceptive.

I’m not so sure and it’s quite possible Bamber and Brett were having sex behind the backs of all the ‘girlfriends’ - including Julie

Jeremy Bamber loved to taunt Julie, I suppose he was trying to establish how far he could go without driving her away completely. Sitting stroking Brett Collins' hair was one such episode.

What sort of a Muppet does that in front of his girlfriend?

And we still don’t know what Virginia and Anji Greaves made of Bamber’s behaviour

‘A common pattern demonstrated by some individuals with psychopathy is the need for stimulation by having old and new partners compete. https://neuroinstincts.com/triangulation-targets-and-stimulation/

Bamber’s behaviour since he’s been in prison is not dissimilar to how he behaved before prison. And many of his previous supporters have described ‘triangulation’ although not necessarily used those words.

Excerpt from above link:
‘For months, Carl went back and forth between the two women. Telling each of them that he loved them and that the other was crazy. He would promise Katy he would finalize the divorce and leave Mandy “for good.” However, the next day he would tell Mandy that Katy was just a fling who will not leave him alone because she is young and obsessed.

The women hated each other and began to hurl attacks online. On one occasion they had a meeting (each with the goal of making the other leave Carl alone). It ended in a screaming match.

Was Brett accepting of or comfortable with Bamber’s abusive behaviour towards these women or did he feel indifferent about it because he believed Bamber was sexually attracted to men only?

[Nicholas]

To be honest (RE: Julie) I think it was a combination of everything. I do think that she'd started to realise it wasn't the fairy tale she'd hoped and had begun having concerns with his behavior.

From what I've read and learnt from other people, I'm inclined to think it was an entirely unhealthy relationship and that for whatever reason it just hit its tipping point. I believe that she'd started to see what was really going on but perhaps it ended more suddenly than she thought it would.

When you say ‘it wasn’t the fairy tale she’d hoped’ are you saying you view the young Julie as a fantasist?

Going only on what Brett has recently said - Bamber’s relationship with Julie was clearly based on lies from the get go - from my viewpoint Bamber possibly viewed Julie as a challenge and someone he could eventually control

‘Originally there was more to our friendship when I first met him because I was bisexual also, and we just hit it off, way before I have met his girlfriend. His girlfriend and he weren't actually what you'd call monogamous friendship. He had several girls at the same time, that all thought that they were his girlfriend. He was quite different in his sexuality.

Plus Anji Greave said Bamber had proposed marriage to her and Bamber said Virginia Greaves was moving in with him. He’d also phoned Suzette Ford to apparently ask her if she still loved him. This is just a snippet of Bamber’s psychopathic behaviour following the murders.. there was also an ‘Anne from Colchester’

‘But Jeremy was far from dedicated to their relationship. He had telephoned Sue in Jersey, asking if she still loved him, and persued a Colchester barmaid named Anne, seven years his senior. Anne agreed to a couple of dates, during which Jeremy showed her his family’s farmland and Osea Road, telling her that he was very wealthy and intended to buy a Porsche someday.
(Courtesy of Carol Ann Lee from the book ‘The murders at White House farm’)

Here’s another snippet

I think there were many anti-gay people around in the 1980s, which sadly meant many people tried to hide their sexuality. It’s of no relevance which gender he liked to have sex with: the relevance is — and from what Julie states in her WS’s — he was being deceptive, unfaithful, promiscuous  — and wasn’t being honest with her. Remember, that was bang at the time of the onset of AIDS, which mainly affected gay people, so Jeremy was putting Julie — and everyone else he had sex with — at danger. Thankfully, they both dodged that bullet, but nonetheless he was taking a huge risk...

It’s clear going by Julie’s statements that he was cheating on her and having sex with others behind her back, and he was hiding it from her, being deceptive.

I view Bamber to be a psychopath therefore his relationship with Julie would have been ‘unhealthy’ from the moment they met

He will have no doubt initially ‘idealised’ her but then the ‘devalue’ and ‘discard’ phases will have occurred

I’m also of the view Julie wasn’t personality disordered therefore she most probably experienced the ‘psychopathic bond’

‘The beginning of these relationships are pleasant, romantic and intense. The neurochemistry of love (norepinephrine, oxytocin, dopamine, vasopressin, and endogenous opioids) flows in abundance making it an exciting time and a perfect setting for an eventual bond. However, the bonding stage will only take place for the non-personality-disordered mate. https://neuroinstincts.com/idealize-devalue-discard/

‘The predictable yet completely unexpected and devastating pattern of a relationship with a psychopath involves three stages: Idealise, Devalue and Discard.
These relationships start out like heaven on earth.... but end in a place worse than hell’
http://psychopathsandlove.com/stages-of-the-psychopathic-relationship/

Bamber may very well have targeted Julie as part of his eventual plan to murder his family. I suspect he did

‘When you’re targeted by a psychopath, you will become and unwitting opponent in his or her or her game of power and control. When stage one — the idealization stage — begins, you believe you’ve found an exciting, romantic relationship and that you’ve met the love of your life… but what you’re actually entering is a game of sorts, one you’re guaranteed to lose. Through manipulation, the psychopath takes control of you and the relationship. Inevitably they will become bored with you, and then through devaluation and abuse, the psychopath will damage you emotionally, psychologically and spiritually and leave you deeply traumatized.

It’s interesting how Charles Marsden doesn’t refer to Virginia or Anji Greaves as ‘serious girlfriends’ yet these are the two women who appear to have been around Bamber the most after he committed the murders and in the lead up to his trial - one of which he intended on marrying apparently and the other he hoped to have move in

Excerpts from Journalist Roger Wilkes book ‘Blood Relations’

‘Marsden said that while he knew of only two serious girlfriends, Suzette Ford and Julie Mugford, Jeremy had had many one-night stands.

‘Marsden had the impression that Julie had disliked Brett Collins.  In any case, Jeremy added, he now had a new girlfriend, Virginia Greaves, who used to go out with Mike Deckers of the Frog and Beans.  Jeremy also told Charles Marsden that he and Brett were going to sell Bourtree Cottage and move to Sheila's flat in Maida Vale.  Virginia would move in too, Jeremy added.

[Nicholas]

Based on the contents of Brett’s replies there appeared to be some cognitive dissonance going on

An example:

‘Talking to him, on the phone, it wasn’t a clear conversation, I know he’s just been through hell but I don’t know who was in the room with him or what was going on but he just seemed short of breath and was trying to think clearly.
When I think back, he should have got an Academy Award for his acting’

If Bamber was responsible for the murder - my view is he most certainly was - he wouldn’t have ‘just been through hell’ as Brett describes

He also says he thought Bamber ‘was trying to think clearly’ - which sounds like Brett’s own projections or yet more excuses for Bamber’s behaviours?

Either way - none of us know what other people think we can only speculate on others thoughts

Possible link of interest
‘Theory of mind’ https://aeon.co/essays/think-you-can-tell-what-others-are-thinking-think-again

[Nicholas]

I didn't think of half of these at the time because the interview itself was 1hr20 haha. But I will follow them up for you.

You did a great job   

[Nicholas]

Some of Julies hand written notes and statements have been typed up by Admin ⬇️ with a few inaccuracies

Does Brett remember any of this? Does he for example recall Richard Deckers staying at the flat with him and Bamber?

Does Brett know if Richard Deckers knew Virginia and Anji were both having ‘affairs’ with Bamber?

Sheila's Flat - Maida Vale - Wed 4 Sept 1985

According to Julie Mugford, she telephoned Bamber at Sheila's flat in Maida Vale on Tuesday 3 September 1985.  She called round the following day. She said it appeared that he was staying at the flat with a friend, Richard Deckers.  She arrived at the flat at 2.50pm and sat waiting in the doorway. He arrived with Brett at about 3.40pm, he got out of the car before Brett and came over and gave her a hug. She asked to see him alone and we walked to a cafe across the road.

In the cafe she asked about their relationship.  Bamber said he had been sold out and was it a matter of continuing the relation ship or her going to the police. Bamber said that he didn't want to continue the relationship and wanted his freedom. Brett arrived at the cafe and discussed some business with Jeremy.  Julie states that they she then suggested moving some of her belongings to her new address before all three again left for Sheila's flat.

At the flat Brett attended to a man who had just arrived. The phone rang and Jeremy answered it.  Julie says that he seemed speak in an overly friendly manner to the caller so she asked him who it was and he replied Virginia.  Virginia was previously acquainted with both Jeremy and Richard Decker.  Julie states that she terminated the call before the phone rang again, it was Virginia. Julie was angry with Jeremy as he had asked out another woman.  She states that she walked out of the room into a bedroom where she picked up a Chinese box and threw it against a mirror, smashing it.  With that Jeremy came into the room with the phone before ending the call.

Jeremy asked why she had did it and she told him that it was cruel to ask out another woman while she was there, Bamber became really cross and Julie had slapped his face.  Julie recalls that he grabbed her right arm and pushed it up her back and shoved her onto the bed and made to strike her.  Julies states that she goaded him daring him to hit her.  She said she told him that she would go straight to Essex Police and they would listen to her. Bamber said that the case was so watertight that they would never listen to her.

Bamber let go of her and lay on the bed very quiet. Julie said she asked him to speak to her and why he was so quiet. She said he looked worried and she felt sorry for him. They started talking again normally and she told him that he could trust her and that she wouldn't say anything. Jeremy eventually gave her a lift home to her flat.


Brett Collins was a friend whom Bamber had met while in New Zealand.


Julie Mugford witness statement page 27
Julie Mugford witness statement page 28
Julie Mugford witness statement page 29
Julie Mugford witness statement page 30
Julie Mugford witness statement page 31
Julie Mugford witness statement page 32

Note re the above: ⬇️

According to Julies WS Bamber didn’t say, ‘he had been sold out’ - he said re his relationship with Julie ‘it had already been sold out’

Julie stated,

“In the cafe we started talking and I asked him what was going on in respect of our relationship. He said it had already been sold out.
I told him he was selfish and that I couldn’t let him get away with hurting people anymore. He said, ‘you mean I either confess; going to the police or I carry on the relationship with you’
He thought I was giving him an alternative.
We discussed our relationship further and basically he could have freedom and do what he wanted to do 

Also note

Julie wasn’t furious she actually stated she was annoyed  (top of page 29 of her WS)

“I was annoyed with him about the call as he had told me he had asked out another women. The phone then rang again and it was Virginia. I walked out of the room and into the bedroom as I was so angry. I picked a Chinese box of Jeremy and threw it against a mirror which smashed. When that broke he came into the room with the phone, still on it to Virginia and then put it down.
He asked me why I did it and I said it was a cruel thing to do to ask out another women whilst I was there
He became very cross and I slapped his face. 
He then got hold of my right arm and twisted it up my back, pushed me onto the bed and then he raised his arm as if to hit me

Would be interested to know if Brett recalls whether Bamber was speaking to Anji or Virginia when the above incident occurred

And previously he said Bamber was apparently sexually assaulted/abused (?) at age 11

"A close friend of his, Brett Collins, said Bamber was sexually assaulted when he was 11, around the time he started at Gresham's

[Myster]

Another link to the podcast on YouTube... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2IWwUJXZ8g

[Geordie]

Hey,

Kay Page here 

I am so sorry about the accent issue. It's one of the curses of being from the Valleys and try as I might, I just can't tone it down. But I'll actually try slowing the speed on next week's episode, I hadn't tried that.

But I am in the process of building the website and eventually there'll be transcripts for each episode there.

Let me know if anyone has any questions about this too :)

It may be just me but I found your accent pretty clear but then again my wife is from the Rhondda and I've heard a very strong accent when I've been there. Could possibly slow down a bit though.