The Neglect question

[icabodcrane]

Despite the McCanns asserstions that their actions and decisions were  'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'  the question of whether or not they were negligent of their children has raged on for the past six years

Often,  I have seen the arguement put that the McCanns did not leave their children vulnerable or at risk because they  (  and no-one else )  could reasonably be expected to consider the risk of someone taking their child from their bed

What if they had returned to the apartment at some point,  though,  to find one of their children had suffered a serious  ( or even fatal ) injury  ? 

How would that have impacted on the question of parental neglect  ? 

The risk of an abduction can be viewed as so unlikely that no parent could be held negligent for not considering it

What  about the risk of injury though ?  ...  there is nothing  'unthinkable'  about that.  There is nothing of the  "who could possibly have foreseen it"  explanation

Had a serious ( or fatal ) injury  occured whilst the McCanns were away from the apartment,  would they have been considered negligent for having left  their children vulnerable to, and at risk of accidents ?   

[ferryman]

Despite the McCanns asserstions that their actions and decisions were  'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'  the question of whether or not they were negligent of their children has raged on for the past six years

Couple of points, there.  It wasn't the McCanns' assertion, but the assertion of UK barristers who specialise in family law. 

And while there are things that could have gone wrong for which the McCanns could have been held responsible, it's largely a question of knowing your own children, understanding their limits and their personalities/traits and tailoring your own response (as a parent) to the circumstances and that knowledge.

As a lad, I once went on holiday to Cyprus with my parents and with a school friend of mine (through circumstances I shan't relate). 

On one of the days of the holiday, I took to the sea and went off on a very long swim.  I was alone, and gone a long while, and my friend became quite concerned.  He expressed his concerns to my father who wasn't, himself, worried and did nothing. 

You'll gather all was well.  I'm still here.  I wasn't in trouble.

My father knew me, knew I was/am a strong swimmer, knew I loved the water, knew I understood my own limits, judged it right, also knew that the Mediterranean has no currents.

If I had been in trouble of some kind, he'd have been negligent in not raising an alarm.

Some things you just can't predict.

Child abduction is one ...

[icabodcrane]

Despite the McCanns asserstions that their actions and decisions were  'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'  the question of whether or not they were negligent of their children has raged on for the past six years

Couple of points, there.  It wasn't the McCanns' assertion, but the assertion of UK barristers who specialise in family law. 

And while there are things that could have gone wrong for which the McCanns could have been held responsible, it's largely a question of knowing your own children, understanding their limits and their personalities/traits and tailoring your own response (as a parent) to the circumstances and that knowledge.

As a lad, I once went on holiday to Cyprus with my parents and with a school friend of mine (through circumstances I shan't relate). 

On one of the days of the holiday, I took to the sea and went off on a very long swim.  I was alone, and gone a long while, and my friend became quite concerned.  He expressed his concerns to my father who wasn't, himself, worried and did nothing. 

You'll gather all was well.  I'm still here.  I wasn't in trouble.

My father knew me, knew I was/am a strong swimmer, knew I loved the water, knew I understood my own limits, judged it right, also knew that the Mediterranean has no currents.

If I had been in trouble of some kind, he'd have been negligent in not raising an alarm.

Some things you just can't predict.

Child abduction is one ...

I allowed for the arguement that child abduction is not a risk that parents could be expected to consider when making childcare decisions

My question was,  should the McCanns have considered the risk of accidents  ?  and given that they did not,  would they have been held negligent if an accident had occured ? 

[stephen25000]

Despite the McCanns asserstions that their actions and decisions were  'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'  the question of whether or not they were negligent of their children has raged on for the past six years

Couple of points, there.  It wasn't the McCanns' assertion, but the assertion of UK barristers who specialise in family law. 

And while there are things that could have gone wrong for which the McCanns could have been held responsible, it's largely a question of knowing your own children, understanding their limits and their personalities/traits and tailoring your own response (as a parent) to the circumstances and that knowledge.

As a lad, I once went on holiday to Cyprus with my parents and with a school friend of mine (through circumstances I shan't relate). 

On one of the days of the holiday, I took to the sea and went off on a very long swim.  I was alone, and gone a long while, and my friend became quite concerned.  He expressed his concerns to my father who wasn't, himself, worried and did nothing. 

You'll gather all was well.  I'm still here.  I wasn't in trouble.

My father knew me, knew I was/am a strong swimmer, knew I loved the water, knew I understood my own limits, judged it right, also knew that the Mediterranean has no currents.

If I had been in trouble of some kind, he'd have been negligent in not raising an alarm.

Some things you just can't predict.

Child abduction is one ...

So what abduction is that exactly, HB ?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Despite the McCanns asserstions that their actions and decisions were  'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'  the question of whether or not they were negligent of their children has raged on for the past six years

Couple of points, there.  It wasn't the McCanns' assertion, but the assertion of UK barristers who specialise in family law. 

And while there are things that could have gone wrong for which the McCanns could have been held responsible, it's largely a question of knowing your own children, understanding their limits and their personalities/traits and tailoring your own response (as a parent) to the circumstances and that knowledge.

As a lad, I once went on holiday to Cyprus with my parents and with a school friend of mine (through circumstances I shan't relate). 

On one of the days of the holiday, I took to the sea and went off on a very long swim.  I was alone, and gone a long while, and my friend became quite concerned.  He expressed his concerns to my father who wasn't, himself, worried and did nothing. 

You'll gather all was well.  I'm still here.  I wasn't in trouble.

My father knew me, knew I was/am a strong swimmer, knew I loved the water, knew I understood my own limits, judged it right, also knew that the Mediterranean has no currents.

If I had been in trouble of some kind, he'd have been negligent in not raising an alarm.

Some things you just can't predict.

Child abduction is one ...

Ferryman may I enquire as to what age you were during this Cyprus vacation please ?

[Redblossom]

Ferryman, that is a story, but I bet you were not 2 or 3 at the time.

In response to the OP, I think neglect has been used alot over the years and probably is the wrong word. IMO it was taking a risk to leave three toddlers alone, especially with leaving the home unsecured, where any tom, dick or harry could walk in or any of the three children walk out. They were doing half hourly checks, but anything could have happened during that time, and they would have no idea as they couls not see or hear them.

I think in this country, if a child was found missing, and the parents were round the corner at the local restaraunt while it happened, with no babysitter, I do believe they would have been charged.

[peter claridge]

Ferryman, that is a story, but I bet you were not 2 or 3 at the time.

In response to the OP, I think neglect has been used alot over the years and probably is the wrong word. IMO it was taking a risk to leave three toddlers alone, especially with leaving the home unsecured, where any tom, dick or harry could walk in or any of the three children walk out. They were doing half hourly checks, but anything could have happened during that time, and they would have no idea as they couls not see or hear them.

I think in this country, if a child was found missing, and the parents were round the corner at the local restaraunt while it happened, with no babysitter, I do believe they would have been charged.

But it wasn't unsecured, the unlocked patio doors was invented to allow the fabricated check by Mathew Oldfield and later became the entry point for their abductor for obvious reasons.  None of the children of the group were expected to wake up.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Ferryman, that is a story, but I bet you were not 2 or 3 at the time.

In response to the OP, I think neglect has been used alot over the years and probably is the wrong word. IMO it was taking a risk to leave three toddlers alone, especially with leaving the home unsecured, where any tom, dick or harry could walk in or any of the three children walk out. They were doing half hourly checks, but anything could have happened during that time, and they would have no idea as they couls not see or hear them.

I think in this country, if a child was found missing, and the parents were round the corner at the local restaraunt while it happened, with no babysitter, I do believe they would have been charged.

Hello Redblossom, I find it difficult to disassociate neglect from taking a risk, surely if one is taking a risk then you are neglecting what would be your normal morals and values ?

[Redblossom]

Peter, I understand the theory. However, Russell O'Brien has made a statement that he checked on the Mccann children on Sunday night through the patio doors. Was he lying too? Mind you, Gerry Mccanns says in one of his statements, the patio doors were locked on Sunday night. Confusing, isn't it?

Hello back DA. I tend to think of neglect as not feeding your kids, not taking care of basic needs, leaving them to sit in dirt, leaving them in danger, ignoring them for long periods of time, and the like. It's a difficult one.You could argue they left them to many possible dangers and when they were not in a position to react if anything happened. I think that is what gets a lot of people's goat, that they did but went on to say they were responsible, they did not think there was any risk at all, and, that thousands of people do the same. I think in all these years of my reading on this case, I have come across about a dozen or so people who have admitted to thinking it is totally OK.
I would also like to say in this day and age we are bombarded via the media almost on a daily basis of dangers from paedophiles, that this never crossed their minds as a danger or fear, especially in a place they had no knowledge of, is IMO hard to believe.

[gilet]

This thread has as much bearing on the case of what happened to Madeleine McCann as the question what would have happened had Chamberlain come to a different conclusion in 1938.

I understood this forum was about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

Could mods ajudicate please on the relevance of a thread which is wholly speculative and can never under any circumstances bring any light at all to that disappearance?

[Redblossom]

This thread has as much bearing on the case of what happened to Madeleine McCann as the question what would have happened had Chamberlain come to a different conclusion in 1938.

I understood this forum was about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

Could mods ajudicate please on the relevance of a thread which is wholly speculative and can never under any circumstances bring any light at all to that disappearance?

It  has everything to do with the disappearance. As the leaving the kids alone allowed an abduction apparently to happen. It is not only about parental culpability or irresponsibility, as it has never been proven that Madeleine did not walk out and the set staged

[ferryman]

Despite the McCanns asserstions that their actions and decisions were  'well within the bounds of responsible parenting'  the question of whether or not they were negligent of their children has raged on for the past six years

Couple of points, there.  It wasn't the McCanns' assertion, but the assertion of UK barristers who specialise in family law. 

And while there are things that could have gone wrong for which the McCanns could have been held responsible, it's largely a question of knowing your own children, understanding their limits and their personalities/traits and tailoring your own response (as a parent) to the circumstances and that knowledge.

As a lad, I once went on holiday to Cyprus with my parents and with a school friend of mine (through circumstances I shan't relate). 

On one of the days of the holiday, I took to the sea and went off on a very long swim.  I was alone, and gone a long while, and my friend became quite concerned.  He expressed his concerns to my father who wasn't, himself, worried and did nothing. 

You'll gather all was well.  I'm still here.  I wasn't in trouble.

My father knew me, knew I was/am a strong swimmer, knew I loved the water, knew I understood my own limits, judged it right, also knew that the Mediterranean has no currents.

If I had been in trouble of some kind, he'd have been negligent in not raising an alarm.

Some things you just can't predict.

Child abduction is one ...

Ferryman may I enquire as to what age you were during this Cyprus vacation please ?

From memory, probably about 14

[gilet]

This thread has as much bearing on the case of what happened to Madeleine McCann as the question what would have happened had Chamberlain come to a different conclusion in 1938.

I understood this forum was about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

Could mods ajudicate please on the relevance of a thread which is wholly speculative and can never under any circumstances bring any light at all to that disappearance?

It  has everything to do with the disappearance. As the leaving the kids alone allowed an abduction apparently to happen. It is not only about parental culpability or irresponsibility, as it has never been proven that Madeleine did not walk out and the set staged

Rather unfortunate that the OP makes no mention of that.

[Redblossom]

Gilet sort your quotes out

ferryman, 14, so totally different, to leaving two two year olds and a three year old isn't it. Chalk and cheese so irrelevant.

[ferryman]

Gilet sort your quotes out

ferryman, 14, so totally different, to leaving two two year olds and a three year old isn't it. Chalk and cheese so irrelevant.

Not totally different at all.  Children, all very tired (Kate makes that point) all tucked up in bed sound asleep and being checked on regularly.

Children active and unsupervised at that age, maybe different.

The parallel holds ...