Author Topic: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 534990 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1230 on: June 18, 2018, 08:15:09 PM »
And then what?

Did the Portuguese outmaneuver the group and their legal advisers? It's a possibility. Proposing the reconstitution and having it refused resulted in the archiving of the case because the witnesses refused to partake. They prevented the PJ from gathering evidence about the timeline. Hence 'insufficient evidence'
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Offline jassi

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1231 on: June 18, 2018, 08:18:07 PM »
And then what?

As it didn't happen, who knows ?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1232 on: June 18, 2018, 08:27:59 PM »
As it didn't happen, who knows ?
Well there would have been two possible outcomes - either it would have proved the timeline or it wouldn’t.  Neither outcome would have settled the matter of the McCanns innocence or guilt.  Agreed?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline jassi

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1233 on: June 18, 2018, 08:37:40 PM »
Not on its own, but might well have led to further  investigation. That is , after all, the way police forces work - they question and probe to get at the truth.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1234 on: June 18, 2018, 08:45:18 PM »
Not on its own, but might well have led to further  investigation. That is , after all, the way police forces work - they question and probe to get at the truth.
They had ample opportunity to do that anyway, a reconstitution would have achieved little or nothing IMO.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1235 on: June 18, 2018, 08:45:32 PM »
Not on its own, but might well have led to further  investigation. That is , after all, the way police forces work - they question and probe to get at the truth.



They may also have been intrigued to watch Kate  n co  do the distance from tapas table to bedroom door within 30/40 seconds. maybe to ask them to join their Olympic team?

The claim at the time was it wouldn't help in the search for Madeleine, nice manoeuvre that, because the PJ  didn't ask them over to take part in a search- well the search for the truth ,sure!  They just brushed that aside. There was no valid reasons for them NOT to return.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1236 on: June 18, 2018, 08:47:43 PM »
They had ample opportunity to do that anyway, a reconstitution would have achieved little or nothing IMO.


So you have solved the case without a reconstruction or just offering an opinion for the sake of it?

We will wait and see if the case gets approved for the ECHR if and when it is read.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1237 on: June 18, 2018, 09:15:22 PM »
On the other hand it could have allowed the authorities to gather enough evidence;

to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Short term gain, long term loss in my opinion. The doubts weren't dismissed,  so the archiving dispatch didn't 'clear' them as they claimed in the libel trial.

I'm trying to work out the subtleties between 277/1 and 277/2. I've tried to rephrase it slightly, with a bit of help from linguee to see if it's any clearer (assuming that I haven't distorted the meaning of the original in the process):

 /1 The Public Ministry shall order the archival of the investigation as soon as there is sufficient evidence that no crime has been determined and that the arguido has not committed one in any way/ capacity (?), or...  (irrelevant bla)

/2 The investigation shall also be archived if the Public Ministry has not been able to obtain sufficient indications that a crime has been committed or concerning the identity of its perpetrators.

IFF that's accurate, to me that would mean that upon weighing up the totality (which would have included the knuckle-rapping bit about the reconstruction), the prosecutors consciously opted for No. 1 - as all the available evidence had been examined, the investigation was conducted "with an enormous margin of error" and they were still no wiser as to what happened to her.

A key bit for me is this re the determination of a crime:

- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

 
There was no evidence that the arguidos had committed a crime, as at the end of the day there was still no clue as to what type of crime.

For some reason, the SC latched onto the fact that the T7 + Jez declined the reconstruction to clarifiy x details and thus 'denied' their arguido friends the "possibility of proving their innocence".

(I doubt that the prosecutors hadn't read the correspondence as to why they weren't nuts about the prospect of another mediafest, plus quite possibly that the details that Rebelo wanted to check were somewhat unlikely to prove anything one way or another, anyway.) The SC wasn't concerned with how useful it may or may not have been in public - they seem to have just seen that phrase, IMO.

If that's the case, then I think they were wrong to have changed the legal provision under which the investigation got shelved.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1238 on: June 18, 2018, 09:38:36 PM »
I'm trying to work out the subtleties between 277/1 and 277/2. I've tried to rephrase it slightly, with a bit of help from linguee to see if it's any clearer (assuming that I haven't distorted the meaning of the original in the process):

 /1 The Public Ministry shall order the archival of the investigation as soon as there is sufficient evidence that no crime has been determined and that the arguido has not committed one in any way/ capacity (?), or...  (irrelevant bla)

/2 The investigation shall also be archived if the Public Ministry has not been able to obtain sufficient indications that a crime has been committed or concerning the identity of its perpetrators.

IFF that's accurate, to me that would mean that upon weighing up the totality (which would have included the knuckle-rapping bit about the reconstruction), the prosecutors consciously opted for No. 1 - as all the available evidence had been examined, the investigation was conducted "with an enormous margin of error" and they were still no wiser as to what happened to her.

A key bit for me is this re the determination of a crime:

- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

 
There was no evidence that the arguidos had committed a crime, as at the end of the day there was still no clue as to what type of crime.

For some reason, the SC latched onto the fact that the T7 + Jez declined the reconstruction to clarifiy x details and thus 'denied' their arguido friends the "possibility of proving their innocence".

(I doubt that the prosecutors hadn't read the correspondence as to why they weren't nuts about the prospect of another mediafest, plus quite possibly that the details that Rebelo wanted to check were somewhat unlikely to prove anything one way or another, anyway.) The SC wasn't concerned with how useful it may or may not have been in public - they seem to have just seen that phrase, IMO.

If that's the case, then I think they were wrong to have changed the legal provision under which the investigation got shelved.

I agree the differentiation between 277/1 and 277/2 seems a bit arcane but if you fire up the old fiddle and prepare a few pipes [or stick a bit of Horace Silver on the old ipod in my case] it becomes clear I think... *%87
Anyway cop a noss at Section 3.1 in this 2007 document. Given it's correct it is fairly straightforward.

http://www.ecba.org/extdocserv/projects/JusticeForum/Portugal180309.pdf
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1239 on: June 18, 2018, 09:46:31 PM »
I agree the differentiation between 277/1 and 277/2 seems a bit arcane but if you fire up the old fiddle and prepare a few pipes [or stick a bit of Horace Silver on the old ipod in my case] it becomes clear I think... *%87
Anyway cop a noss at Section 3.1 in this 2007 document. Given it's correct it is fairly straightforward.

http://www.ecba.org/extdocserv/projects/JusticeForum/Portugal180309.pdf

Thanks, I had it bookmarked but I haven't read it in a while.

From what I've read, in days gone by, people could be chucked in prison on remand and be forgotten about for ages, hence the tightening up of all the deadlines re the investigation.

Lol - will have to hunt down who Horace Silver is.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 09:50:20 PM by Carana »

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1240 on: June 18, 2018, 09:56:16 PM »
I agree the differentiation between 277/1 and 277/2 seems a bit arcane but if you fire up the old fiddle and prepare a few pipes [or stick a bit of Horace Silver on the old ipod in my case] it becomes clear I think... *%87
Anyway cop a noss at Section 3.1 in this 2007 document. Given it's correct it is fairly straightforward.

http://www.ecba.org/extdocserv/projects/JusticeForum/Portugal180309.pdf

Yes Alice, sec 3 is very clear and very easy to read and understand.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Carana

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1241 on: June 18, 2018, 09:56:30 PM »
Did the Portuguese outmaneuver the group and their legal advisers? It's a possibility. Proposing the reconstitution and having it refused resulted in the archiving of the case because the witnesses refused to partake. They prevented the PJ from gathering evidence about the timeline. Hence 'insufficient evidence'

They can construct a timeline on a computer, though.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1242 on: June 18, 2018, 09:57:53 PM »
I'm trying to work out the subtleties between 277/1 and 277/2. I've tried to rephrase it slightly, with a bit of help from linguee to see if it's any clearer (assuming that I haven't distorted the meaning of the original in the process):

 /1 The Public Ministry shall order the archival of the investigation as soon as there is sufficient evidence that no crime has been determined and that the arguido has not committed one in any way/ capacity (?), or...  (irrelevant bla)

/2 The investigation shall also be archived if the Public Ministry has not been able to obtain sufficient indications that a crime has been committed or concerning the identity of its perpetrators.

IFF that's accurate, to me that would mean that upon weighing up the totality (which would have included the knuckle-rapping bit about the reconstruction), the prosecutors consciously opted for No. 1 - as all the available evidence had been examined, the investigation was conducted "with an enormous margin of error" and they were still no wiser as to what happened to her.

A key bit for me is this re the determination of a crime:

- Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.

 
There was no evidence that the arguidos had committed a crime, as at the end of the day there was still no clue as to what type of crime.

For some reason, the SC latched onto the fact that the T7 + Jez declined the reconstruction to clarifiy x details and thus 'denied' their arguido friends the "possibility of proving their innocence".

(I doubt that the prosecutors hadn't read the correspondence as to why they weren't nuts about the prospect of another mediafest, plus quite possibly that the details that Rebelo wanted to check were somewhat unlikely to prove anything one way or another, anyway.) The SC wasn't concerned with how useful it may or may not have been in public - they seem to have just seen that phrase, IMO.

If that's the case, then I think they were wrong to have changed the legal provision under which the investigation got shelved.

1 says evidence of no crime or evidence of none involvement
2 says no evidence of crime or involvement

The bit you quoted in italics is fairly clearly 2 IMO.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1243 on: June 18, 2018, 10:01:22 PM »
Thanks, I had it bookmarked but I haven't read it in a while.

From what I've read, in days gone by, people could be chucked in prison on remand and be forgotten about for ages, hence the tightening up of all the deadlines re the investigation.

Lol - will have to hunt down who Horace Silver is.

Like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BTNVtHK3IA
or this even
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmO2pM20MrU   !!
I am more interested in the process and how it is supposed to work. Processes all become a SNAFU with too much operator intervention that overrides interlocks because idiots always know best! Then of course the original process may not have passed the LBJ test.

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #1244 on: June 18, 2018, 10:10:57 PM »
They can construct a timeline on a computer, though.


I think you are missing a couple of valid points.

1. the tapas would do this in real time- why do they not want this? They claim:

   1a  it wouldn't help in the search for Madeliene
   1b  it would be too upsetting for K and G

2.It would show up major discrepancies  like JTs pyjama memory,improving after discussions with K and G... where Gerry and Jez were when she passed (they disagreed about this on the panorama reconstruction)- it didn't seem to be too upsetting doing it for TV.

* a computer time line would not be accepted as evidence of the tapas behaviour during the time-line.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin