Author Topic: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights  (Read 530697 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2625 on: October 24, 2018, 09:28:24 AM »
The Cruz case is a criminal case and the Charlie Gard case appears to never being able to succeed and was deemed inadmissible.

There is nothing to stop anyone applying to the ECHR the question appears to be whether they will consider it fully or deem it inadmissible IMO.

charlie gards case was quite fully considered...the ECHR looked closely at the evidence from the uk courts

Offline Sunny

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2626 on: October 24, 2018, 09:39:04 AM »
charlie gards case was quite fully considered...the ECHR looked closely at the evidence from the uk courts

I imagine they would look closely at all cases but as I said before Charlie Gard's case was deemed inadmissible

http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed178491

I do accept that it went to a panel of judges though. Perhaps that was because of the urgent tragic nature of the case rather than the chance of Charlie's parents being successful.
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Offline Brietta

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2627 on: October 24, 2018, 10:32:19 AM »
I imagine they would look closely at all cases but as I said before Charlie Gard's case was deemed inadmissible

http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed178491

I do accept that it went to a panel of judges though. Perhaps that was because of the urgent tragic nature of the case rather than the chance of Charlie's parents being successful.

The panel of seven judges ruled on the legal decisions of the English courts and decided that at each step of the way the decisions made were impeccable in law.

If their deliberations had gone the other way and the decisions of the English courts had not been upheld ... in my opinion Charlie's parents would have been able to take him to America for treatment, if they had been allowed entry.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Sunny

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2628 on: October 24, 2018, 10:48:46 AM »
The panel of seven judges ruled on the legal decisions of the English courts and decided that at each step of the way the decisions made were impeccable in law.

If their deliberations had gone the other way and the decisions of the English courts had not been upheld ... in my opinion Charlie's parents would have been able to take him to America for treatment, if they had been allowed entry.

Of course Brietta but the court didn't agree with Charlie's parents case so you point is moot IMO.  They were given the indication that they could succeed by their lawyers, so they went to the ECHR and failed.

It seems that a significant proportion of claimants fail in the ECHR and from reading the ECHR court judgement I can see why there's was deemed inadmissible.  Charlie Gard's parents case was deemed to be unusual so it went to the full panel of 7 judges.

THE EXAMINATION OF YOUR APPLICATION
1. Judicial formations
Once the Court is in possession of all the information it needs to
examine your case, your application will be allocated to one of the
Court’s judicial formations, depending on the type of case: a single
judge, a Committee or a Chamber.
¨ If your application is clearly inadmissible because it does not meet
all the required admissibility criteria, it will be dealt with by a
single judge. The inadmissibility decision given by that judge is
final and it will be communicated to you. It is not possible to
challenge the inadmissibility decision or request any further
information about it. The Court will close the case and the file
will be destroyed at a later date.
¨ If your case is considered to be a repetitive case, which raises an
issue on which the Court has already ruled in a number of cases,
it will be handled by a Committee of 3 judges. In this case, a
letter explaining the procedure will be sent to you. Once again,
the Court will contact you if and when necessary.
¨ If your case is not considered to be a repetitive case, it will be
examined by a Chamber of 7 judges. The Chamber may still
declare the case inadmissible and, if it does, that decision will
be final, but if it considers the case admissible it will examine the
merits of your complaint


https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Your_Application_ENG.pdf
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Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2629 on: October 24, 2018, 11:06:01 AM »
The panel of seven judges ruled on the legal decisions of the English courts and decided that at each step of the way the decisions made were impeccable in law.

If their deliberations had gone the other way and the decisions of the English courts had not been upheld ... in my opinion Charlie's parents would have been able to take him to America for treatment, if they had been allowed entry.

Whatever, it still has nothing to do with overturning Supreme Court decisions.
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2630 on: October 24, 2018, 11:09:25 AM »
Of course Brietta but the court didn't agree with Charlie's parents case so you point is moot IMO.  They were given the indication that they could succeed by their lawyers, so they went to the ECHR and failed.

It seems that a significant proportion of claimants fail in the ECHR and from reading the ECHR court judgement I can see why there's was deemed inadmissible.  Charlie Gard's parents case was deemed to be unusual so it went to the full panel of 7 judges.

THE EXAMINATION OF YOUR APPLICATION
1. Judicial formations
Once the Court is in possession of all the information it needs to
examine your case, your application will be allocated to one of the
Court’s judicial formations, depending on the type of case: a single
judge, a Committee or a Chamber.
¨ If your application is clearly inadmissible because it does not meet
all the required admissibility criteria, it will be dealt with by a
single judge. The inadmissibility decision given by that judge is
final and it will be communicated to you. It is not possible to
challenge the inadmissibility decision or request any further
information about it. The Court will close the case and the file
will be destroyed at a later date.
¨ If your case is considered to be a repetitive case, which raises an
issue on which the Court has already ruled in a number of cases,
it will be handled by a Committee of 3 judges. In this case, a
letter explaining the procedure will be sent to you. Once again,
the Court will contact you if and when necessary.
¨ If your case is not considered to be a repetitive case, it will be
examined by a Chamber of 7 judges. The Chamber may still
declare the case inadmissible and, if it does, that decision will
be final, but if it considers the case admissible it will examine the
merits of your complaint


https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Your_Application_ENG.pdf

It seems we are not going to agree so I dont really see the point of sceptics claiming their opinion as fact. The parents solicitors applied to the court allow them to seek tratment for Charlie...the fact that they did suggests it was possible to overturn the UK court.  The ECHR didnt say its none of our business...they considered the case and rejected it. IMO there nust be a possibility in general of the ECHR judgement leading to the reversal of a  domestic courts decision.


Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2631 on: October 24, 2018, 11:10:03 AM »
Whatever, it still has nothing to do with overturning Supreme Court decisions.

yes it does imo...you are stating your opinion as fact...It was an attempt to overturn a domestic courts decision....the ECHR did not simply say...we cannot overturn the decision...they gave all the reasons they agreed with it
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 11:20:07 AM by Davel »

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2632 on: October 24, 2018, 11:24:25 AM »
yes it does imo...you are stating your opinion as fact...It was an attempt to overturn a domestic courts decision....the ECHR did not simply say...we cannot overturn the decision...they gave all the reasons they agreed with it

"Domestic Courts" or, bearing in mind the thread title "Supreme Courts"?
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Offline Brietta

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2633 on: October 24, 2018, 11:26:28 AM »
Of course Brietta but the court didn't agree with Charlie's parents case so you point is moot IMO.  They were given the indication that they could succeed by their lawyers, so they went to the ECHR and failed.

It seems that a significant proportion of claimants fail in the ECHR and from reading the ECHR court judgement I can see why there's was deemed inadmissible.  Charlie Gard's parents case was deemed to be unusual so it went to the full panel of 7 judges.

THE EXAMINATION OF YOUR APPLICATION
1. Judicial formations
Once the Court is in possession of all the information it needs to
examine your case, your application will be allocated to one of the
Court’s judicial formations, depending on the type of case: a single
judge, a Committee or a Chamber.
¨ If your application is clearly inadmissible because it does not meet
all the required admissibility criteria, it will be dealt with by a
single judge. The inadmissibility decision given by that judge is
final and it will be communicated to you. It is not possible to
challenge the inadmissibility decision or request any further
information about it. The Court will close the case and the file
will be destroyed at a later date.
¨ If your case is considered to be a repetitive case, which raises an
issue on which the Court has already ruled in a number of cases,
it will be handled by a Committee of 3 judges. In this case, a
letter explaining the procedure will be sent to you. Once again,
the Court will contact you if and when necessary.
¨ If your case is not considered to be a repetitive case, it will be
examined by a Chamber of 7 judges. The Chamber may still
declare the case inadmissible and, if it does, that decision will
be final, but if it considers the case admissible it will examine the
merits of your complaint


https://www.echr.coe.int/Documents/Your_Application_ENG.pdf

We need to remind ourselves that parents do not have rights regarding their children, they only have duties, the principal duty being to act in their children’s best interests. This has been part of the fabric of our law and our society for a long time. Third, if we are concerned with the language of rights, it is, of course, children who have rights; any rights that parents have exist only to protect their children’s rights.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/24/charlie-gard-tragic-respect-courts
____________________________________________________________________________________


"In truth, there are no winners here. One thing is for sure though."  Connie Yates
____________________________________________________________________________________

The European judges said it was “not for the court to substitute itself for the competent domestic authorities”. British court judgments in the case had been “meticulous”, the ECHR noted.

It said: “The domestic courts had concluded, on the basis of extensive, high-quality expert evidence, that it was most likely Charlie was being exposed to continued pain, suffering and distress and that undergoing experimental treatment with no prospects of success would offer no benefit, and continue to cause him significant harm.”

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/27/charlie-gard-european-court-rejects-plea-to-intervene-in-life-support-fight
____________________________________________________________________________________



In Charlie's case the seven judges of the European Court considered and deliberated on the case brought before them on Charlie's behalf before pronouncing their judgement.

Which was to concur with the deliberations and conclusions of the judges of the English courts.

Had they found that the English courts had erred in the application of the law based on medical evidence as far as Charlie was concerned, in my opinion their ruling would have been different and just as legally binding.

Therefore Charlie's case was heard in Europe.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2634 on: October 24, 2018, 11:29:39 AM »
"Domestic Courts" or, bearing in mind the thread title "Supreme Courts"?

At the supreme court hearing, the family’s lawyer, Richard Gordon QC, told judges: “The issue is whether the state has the power to intrude on decisions the parents have made in order to mandate that child’s death before it might come to an end. These are model parents trying to do all they possibly can for the benefit of their child. Their view on what is best for Charlie differs from the court.”
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/27/charlie-gard-european-court-rejects-plea-to-intervene-in-life-support-fight
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Sunny

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2635 on: October 24, 2018, 11:42:10 AM »
It seems we are not going to agree so I dont really see the point of sceptics claiming their opinion as fact. The parents solicitors applied to the court allow them to seek tratment for Charlie...the fact that they did suggests it was possible to overturn the UK court.  The ECHR didnt say its none of our business...they considered the case and rejected it. IMO there nust be a possibility in general of the ECHR judgement leading to the reversal of a  domestic courts decision.

I can't remember posting opinion as fact and I certainly didn't do that in the post you are replying to. However I do agree that Charlie Gard's parents went to the ECHR to get the Supreme Court ruling overturned so they could get the treatment they wanted from the USA.

So I believe in some circumstances, for example life or death, or deprivation of liberty, the ECHR may be able to overturn a Supreme Court ruling. Whether that would apply in a civil libel case though ....
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2636 on: October 24, 2018, 11:51:49 AM »
I can't remember posting opinion as fact and I certainly didn't do that in the post you are replying to. However I do agree that Charlie Gard's parents went to the ECHR to get the Supreme Court ruling overturned so they could get the treatment they wanted from the USA.

So I believe in some circumstances, for example life or death, or deprivation of liberty, the ECHR may be able to overturn a Supreme Court ruling. Whether that would apply in a civil libel case though ....

I have made it clear my posts are my opinion but it's interesting  that you accept that the ECHR does have more power than some, are willing to accept

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2637 on: October 24, 2018, 12:07:38 PM »
At the supreme court hearing, the family’s lawyer, Richard Gordon QC, told judges: “The issue is whether the state has the power to intrude on decisions the parents have made in order to mandate that child’s death before it might come to an end. These are model parents trying to do all they possibly can for the benefit of their child. Their view on what is best for Charlie differs from the court.”
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2017/jun/27/charlie-gard-european-court-rejects-plea-to-intervene-in-life-support-fight

At which;

Permission to appeal was refused on the grounds that there was no arguable point of law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Gard_case#Supreme_Court
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2638 on: October 24, 2018, 12:08:48 PM »
At which;

Permission to appeal was refused on the grounds that there was no arguable point of law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Gard_case#Supreme_Court

So not because the ECHR had no jurisdiction

Offline G-Unit

Re: McCanns appeal to the European Court of Human Rights
« Reply #2639 on: October 24, 2018, 12:52:26 PM »
So not because the ECHR had no jurisdiction

Therefore any subsequent developments would have had nothing to do with the Supreme Court. Therefore it's off topic.
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