Author Topic: Barry George revisited.  (Read 169553 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #285 on: April 15, 2019, 10:20:54 AM »
Courtesy of Andy Rigsby’s blog “Who didn’t kill Jill Dando”

“There were no witnesses to the actual murder, but locals and neighbours provided statements linked to a variety of sightings that were thought to be related to what was noticed before and after the killing. Jill Dando was found between 5 -14 minutes, (estimates vary), after she was attacked lying at the foot of her front door by a passer-by

Speculation about a criminal underworld hit or an internationally driven assassination was suggested because of Jill Dando’s association with BBC Crimewatch. The media surmised that it was a “professional hit”.

As the official investigation progressed it was eventually concluded to be the exact opposite, a disjointed opportunity attack

The investigation could not help to be influenced by media speculation which favoured a so called hitman. Like JFK and Princess Diana, an insignificant gunman and an incompetent driver were too simplistic to contemplate,  the initial media vacuums groomed conspiracy and wild speculation.

The killer had either waited in ambush on chance and or was frequenting the location as she arrived home. He had no escape route, he merely walked off down Gowan Avenue, no witness can recall seeing anyone get into a car and being driven off. Circumstances could have been different. A witness could have seen the murder take place and come face to face with the killer. He got away not by guile and planning but by swift actions and sheer luck. It would seem the killer had acted alone, and he disappeared into the community streets and avenues. The murder weapon was never recovered.

If Jill Dando was killed by a so called professional who would have been highly mobile, Gowan Avenue was the worst choice of location. Her partners home in Chiswick would have been far easier to identify and log her movement routine. A local, close to Gowan Avenue however and without transport would have the time to loiter and plot for, days, weeks, months. If Jill Dando had been approached by nothing more threatening than a busy autograph hunter where would they have chosen to wait for her.
http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/who-didnt-kill-jill-dando/

How can anyone make this comment and expect to be taken seriously when the perp got clean away.  A fact the perp no doubt took into account when planning the murder.

I've read a press article which I can't find now, anyway it states Alan Farthing lived in a three-storey property at Bedford Close, Chiswick - see map/image below.  Three-storey properties provide vanatge points for viewing over some range and in terms of Bedford Close very limited entry and exit points to enter and flee the soc.  Jill's property at Gowan Ave had a tree and hedge in the garden which apparently attracted her to the property in the first place as she thought it afforded privacy.  It also provided numerous possibilities in terms of escape routes away from the immediate vicinity and then away from the area. 

Plus no doubt most of the time Jill was at Bedford Close Alan was there too.  Whereas at Gowan Ave she was mostly there alone.   

Given Jill's found position on the doorstep and the fact she was shot behind her left ear it would seem unlikely the perp was waiting inside and opened the door as Jill was about to put her key in.  And if this was the case surely forensics would reveal?  So the options are:

- Perp waited inside until he/she was alerted to the fact Jill was on her away at which time he left the inside of the property and lie in wait in the front garden? 
- Perp entered front garden in anticipation of Jill's arrival shortly before she arrived?
- Perp was walking along Gowan Ave in synch with the arrival of Jill's car and as she was about to put her keys in the door he/she took her by surprise forcing her to the ground?
- The murder wasn't planned and the perp just happened to walk by at the right time and Jill just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Police looked through mobile phone data and found nothing to suggest 2 people were communicating her movements eg from Bedford Close to Gown Ave.  Was it possible 2 people communicated over shorter distances?  I'm inclined to think surveillance was used in terms of phones/properties bugged and cars tracked.

Bedford Close, Chiswick

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4836634,-0.2516459,3a,75y,291.16h,85.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.46182%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656


29 Gowan Ave, Fulham

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.476734,-0.2113333,3a,37.5y,138.06h,84.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYdhZ1ji2z1XFUAwtww5QGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The design of the property changes slightly from those before and affords more privacy around the porch area.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #286 on: April 15, 2019, 10:35:07 AM »
Also had the perp been seen by a neighbour actually carrying out the murder he/she would soon leave field of view.  Whereas at Bedford Close the perp could potentially have been in field of view for longer.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #287 on: April 15, 2019, 10:55:03 AM »
0.4 miles is approximately 704 yards!
“Detectives investigating the killing became increasingly convinced Mr George was the gunman after they discovered he had followed numerous women and taken thousands of pictures of them.
But in an interview, Mr George insisted that at the time Miss Dando was murdered, he was following another woman after leaving a disability centre in Fulham.
Miss Dando was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, west London, at around 11.30am on April 26 1999.
Between 10.30am and 12.33pm on the day of the shooting, Mr George insisted, he was either at the centre or walking beside the woman.
"I walked with her for a bit and from her perspective, maybe it was unwanted attention. But she didn't make that clear," he said.
"It didn't seem like she was telling me to go away. If she'd told me to leave I'd have done so straight away.
"That was at 12.33pm. I know because just a minute before I'd made a call from my mobile to check how much credit I had left."
During three weeks of surveillance before his arrest Mr George was seen to approach 38 women and try to make conversation with them.
He said of his history of stalking: "I know I have done wrong in the past and if I could go back in time and change that I would.
" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2492744/Jill-Dando-murder-I-was-stalking-another-woman-at-the-time-says-Barry-George.html

Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

“From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 12:25:33 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #288 on: April 15, 2019, 11:32:39 AM »
Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.

“Barry George, the man acquitted at a retrial of killing Jill Dando, has won substantial damages and an apology from the publisher of the Sun and News of the World over a series of articles suggesting that he was responsible for the killing and was a stalker.

George was in the high court today to hear his barrister read a statement outlining how the News of the World had made up a quote from him in which he suggested he could not have killed Dando because he was stalking another woman at the time.

Nick Baird, for George, said a confidentiality agreement prevented his client commenting further. Damages are believed to be a six-figure sum.

News Group Newspapers, the News International subsidiary that publishes the Sun and News of the World, further apologised for a series of articles in the two tabloids in which various allegations were made that he had become obsessed with the Sky News presenter Kay Burley, had pestered a woman after answering an advertisement she placed about a dog and had become obsessed with Pam Wright, the fiancee of the Ipswich strangler Steve Wright.

George, speaking after the short hearing before Mr Justice Eady, said: "I am pleased that the matter between me and News Group Newspapers has been amicably settled following successful mediation and without the need for litigation."

He appeared in court with his sister Michelle Diskin, who has supported him since his release from prison last year. He was released after being acquitted at the court of appeal and following a retrial.

George, who has a personality disorder, is now attempting to stop the authorities monitoring his movements since his release.

Gordon Bishop, representing George at the hearing, said the articles were published between 1 August and 20 November 2008.

He added that George had agreed to give an interview to the News of the World and Sky after his release in June last year. "He knew there would be a clamour from the press for his story and he wanted to satisfy the demands of the press ... and be left in peace."

He said an article in the Sun described a number of matters which had been kept from the jury. News Group has now admitted that the articles "would have been understood to mean that there were grounds to suspect Mr George of the murder despite his acquittal. (They) accept that the verdict of the second jury in acquitting Mr George was correct and it apologises to Mr George for any suggestion otherwise."

In his interview with the News of the World, the paper stated that George had told them: "I didn't kill Jill Dando – I was stalking someone else at the time."

News Group now accepts that George never made that statement to them.
Read more here: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/dec/16/barry-george-news-of-world
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 12:26:03 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #289 on: April 15, 2019, 11:41:53 AM »
Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.

Nothing to do with his previous history then and the evidence found by police when they searched his flat and in the weeks they had him under surveillance?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 12:26:22 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #290 on: April 15, 2019, 12:13:23 PM »
How can anyone make this comment and expect to be taken seriously when the perp got clean away.  A fact the perp no doubt took into account when planning the murder.

I've read a press article which I can't find now, anyway it states Alan Farthing lived in a three-storey property at Bedford Close, Chiswick - see map/image below.  Three-storey properties provide vanatge points for viewing over some range and in terms of Bedford Close very limited entry and exit points to enter and flee the soc.  Jill's property at Gowan Ave had a tree and hedge in the garden which apparently attracted her to the property in the first place as she thought it afforded privacy.  It also provided numerous possibilities in terms of escape routes away from the immediate vicinity and then away from the area. 

Plus no doubt most of the time Jill was at Bedford Close Alan was there too.  Whereas at Gowan Ave she was mostly there alone.   

Given Jill's found position on the doorstep and the fact she was shot behind her left ear it would seem unlikely the perp was waiting inside and opened the door as Jill was about to put her key in.  And if this was the case surely forensics would reveal?  So the options are:

- Perp waited inside until he/she was alerted to the fact Jill was on her away at which time he left the inside of the property and lie in wait in the front garden? 
- Perp entered front garden in anticipation of Jill's arrival shortly before she arrived?
- Perp was walking along Gowan Ave in synch with the arrival of Jill's car and as she was about to put her keys in the door he/she took her by surprise forcing her to the ground?
- The murder wasn't planned and the perp just happened to walk by at the right time and Jill just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Police looked through mobile phone data and found nothing to suggest 2 people were communicating her movements eg from Bedford Close to Gown Ave.  Was it possible 2 people communicated over shorter distances?  I'm inclined to think surveillance was used in terms of phones/properties bugged and cars tracked.

Bedford Close, Chiswick

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4836634,-0.2516459,3a,75y,291.16h,85.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dd-hBL1ncMkLL4zk_9gR_Ig%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.46182%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656


29 Gowan Ave, Fulham

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.476734,-0.2113333,3a,37.5y,138.06h,84.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYdhZ1ji2z1XFUAwtww5QGQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The design of the property changes slightly from those before and affords more privacy around the porch area.

Here's an image of 29 Gowan Ave as it was then.  Looks to afford the ideal location for what took place.  Certainly less riksy than Bedford Close and what were the alternatives given Jill's busy lifestyle in central London?

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #291 on: April 15, 2019, 12:16:12 PM »
Here's an image of 29 Gowan Ave as it was then.  Looks to afford the ideal location for what took place.  Certainly less riksy than Bedford Close and what were the alternatives given Jill's busy lifestyle in central London?

I can see a house alarm too so unlikely the perp entered at any time.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #292 on: April 15, 2019, 12:24:56 PM »
Michelle Diskin Bates states in her book Stand Against Injustice:

“On Sunday, the News of the World ran the story and it was a hatchet job. Barry’s piece was fine, except for the headline . . . ‘I couldn’t have done it, I was stalking another woman at the time!’
Barry absolutely did not say this. We’d been there the entire time, we’d gone over everything. Barry told them, “I couldn’t have killed Jill Dando. I was talking with another woman at the time.” Actually, he was wrong. When Ms Dando was killed, Barry was at the HAFAD centre. Barry doesn’t have a concept of time, that’s why he often runs into difficulties. Added to that, all of Barry’s teeth are missing so he speaks with a slight lisp. The News of the World took ‘was-talking’ and made it ‘was-stalking’, but we hadn’t noticed. To this day people still think he said this, and make judgements about him based on it, but he didn’t.
This publication also carried two other articles on the Jill Dando/ Barry George story, making a spread over three pages. Both of these were horrendous. Never have I seen such vitriol aimed at someone who has been found not guilty. Retired Detective Ian Horrocks, one of the original officers on the case, had a whole section devoted entirely to saying that the police did not make a mistake, and many other things that made Barry look guilty. We were dumbstruck by all of this. To my knowledge, it was unprecedented to attack a person in this way when they’ve been exonerated. If the police had had any more evidence against Barry, they would have used it. There was none, therefore he was freed. What would be the gain in keeping Barry incarcerated, with Jill’s killer still walking freely among us?

From here on, it was open season on Barry George in the press. We were sought out and photographed from afar, untrue stories were emblazoned on front pages with lurid headlines. Many times he was with people who could vouch for him, but no one cared. They were vilifying him, and that would sell papers. We were naïve to think that one article, or even a not guilty verdict, would mean we would ever be left alone.


Is it half a dozen of one and half a dozen of another?

The following news headline and subsequent article by Nick Dorman & Mark Williams-Thomas refers to an alleged undercover cop called Sonia and states:



The female officer, codenamed Sonia, chatted up the loner in the hope he would let slip something incriminating

“Jill Dando murder: Cops tried honeytrap to get Barry George to confess to her murder

Desperate detectives assigned an attractive undercover policewoman to try to trap Barry George into confessing to Jill Dando’s murder.

The female officer, codenamed Sonia, chatted up the loner in the hope he would let slip something incriminating.

Previously unseen images – part of the round-the-clock police surveillance of George – show him on the streets at the time, including the day in May 2000 when he spoke to Sonia at an internet cafe.

Lead investigator Hamish Campbell knew honeytraps had been discredited during the case of Colin Stagg who was charged with the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common.

His trial in 1994 collapsed over honeytrap evidence.

Mr Stagg went on to win a police apology and £706,000 compensation from the Home Office.

George was arrested and charged a fortnight after his chat with Sonia. He was then wrongly convicted of murdering the popular 37-year-old TV presenter.

During the hour-long conversation with the undercover officer, George freely admitted he had been linked to Jill’s killing, saying: “I was a witness to a situation and basically pursued as a suspect later.”

He added: “They took a statement as a witness, went to the court, got a search warrant, done our place, just short of ripping the place apart.

"I’m in trouble, you know. They were searching, allegedly, for guns, ammunition, clothes.

“It’s only ’cos we have a place in Fulham... I elaborate even more when I tell you a name, Jill Dando.”

George slated the police, saying: “It seems cruel – you can’t just go round doing that without having some evidence. It’s disgraceful.”

He added he had tried to help officers by reporting he had seen a car going up and down the road around the time of the murder.

The honeytrap had not thrown up any concrete leads.

But the secretly recorded conversation gave weight to the picture of him as an oddball fantasist who was obsessed with celebrities.

George spoke of his interest in the military – a pastime that became part of the case against him.

But he seemed happiest talking about his dream of being part of the showbiz world.

He lied to Sonia that he was rock singer Freddie Mercury’s cousin.

George then used the star’s real surname, Bulsara, in an email address he gave to Sonia so the pair could stay in touch.

The Met police surveillance had revealed he spent hours at internet cafes chatting to strangers online.

Sonia, whose real identity was never disclosed, talked to George in Kensington, West London – less than 500 yards from the incident room where Campbell was running the Dando case.

Jill, who presented BBC show Crimewatch, was shot dead on her doorstep in Fulham, West London, in April 1999.

George, who lived a few minutes from her house, was charged a year later.

And our investigation has uncovered a record card on George, from Met police files, which goes a long way to explaining detectives’ attitudes towards him.

It lists previous convictions including indecent assault. In 1981 he received a suspended three-month jail term for the sex attack.

He was also fined in 1980 for impersonating an officer.

In March 1983 he was jailed for 33 months for attempted rape under another of his aliases – Steve Majors, which he borrowed from TV series The Six Million Dollar Man.

The card noted he used the name Paul Gadd – the real name of pop singer Gary Glitter, later exposed as a paedophile.

Under unusual features, the police record said: “Eyebrows meet... Teeth broken... Talks with a lisp. Simple.”

George had an IQ of 75, well below average.

By calling him “simple”, police show they were aware of his vulnerablity, somebody who perhaps could be trapped into incriminating himself.

Barrister Michael Mansfield, who represented George at his first trial, said the use of a honeytrap raised grave questions over the original police probe.

Mr Mansfield said: “It has all the hallmarks of a desperate investigation
.



“Desperate detectives” “Desperate investigation”  but what about the “even terms” rule and the evidence of Lenita Bailey, for example?


“Undoubtedly, when persons are speaking on even terms and a charge is made, and the person charged says nothing, and expresses no indignation, and does nothing to repel the charge, that is some evidence to show that he admits the charge to be true.


Evidence in Context by Jonathon Doak

7.1 The “even terms” rule.

“Lenita Bailey was a customer at a hairdressers near the accused flat. She knew him and recalled a conversation with him. George came into the salon and claimed police were harassing him over the death of Jill Dando. He complained they had searched his home and his mothers house. Ms Bailey said to him: “Did you do it?”  George remained silent and starred at the floor. She repeated the question twice more and asked him to look at her. At trial, she said: “His lips moved as if he were thinking of an answer but none was forthcoming. Her evidence of the discussion, or lack of it, was admitted, and George was convicted.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JmDLCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT374&lpg=PT374&dq=lenita+bailey+barry+george&source=bl&ots=o2q28Nrf8W&sig=ACfU3U0U6Ar9JmuOb0wlSIVZgNXu2D_peQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqntajzs_hAhXvVBUIHc3LCmsQ6AEwEXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=lenita%20bailey%20barry%20george&f=false

Where does the truth begin and the lies end?

Michelle Diskin Bates claims her brother was concerned he may become a suspect into Miss Dando’s murder because he had been spoken to following the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell?

This suggests to me Barry George was already considered dangerous by the police.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 01:28:40 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #293 on: April 15, 2019, 01:36:08 PM »
Michelle Diskin Bates goes on: “This was not paranoia. Barry had been pulled in by the police for the 1992 murder of Rachel Nickell, before the police and the Criminal Profiler Paul Britton set their nets for Colin Stagg.

The Telegraph reported:

Paul Britton said Robert Napper, who last week admitted killing the former model on Wimbledon Common in 1992, would have been arrested "within half an hour" if officers had reacted to clues he provided them into earlier offences committed by the killer.
The psychologist advised police on inquiries into other crimes now known to have been committed by Napper, from Plumstead, south-east London, including the 1993 murder of Samantha Bisset and her four-year-old daughter Jazmine, as well as a series of rapes and sex crimes known as the Green Chain Walk attacks, that dated back to the 1980s.
The profiler, who was the inspiration for Robbie Coltrane's "Cracker" character, said that even before Miss Nickell's death, the insights he had provided about the earlier crimes could have led to Napper's swift arrest.
In the hunt for the Green Chain Walk attacker, he said he advised officers to concentrate on local crime records and speak to beat officers in the area, whom he believed would already be familiar with the attacker as a local "nuisance".
"The local beat officers would have given a name within half an hour," Mr Britton said. "If they had done that Napper would have been in custody."
Mr Britton's work has been widely discredited by the Metropolitan Police's bungled investigation into Miss Nickell's death.
He has been blamed by some for the decision to wrongly pursue Colin Stagg, who lived near Wimbledon Common, over the killing, as he matched an offender profile provided by Mr Britton,
However, the psychologist insisted that after the murder he had urged police to look for links with the Green Chain Walk attacks but that police had ordered him to concentrate on Mr Stagg.
Told that Scotland Yard's Detective Chief Inspector Tony Nash, who led the latest inquiry, said there was "no evidence" that Mr Britton had urged officers to broaden the scope of their 1992 investigation, the psychologist said: "That is delightful, isn't it? What can I say? I did tell them. It was a matter of regret that it was not followed up.
"I'm not going to make accusations against Mr Nash. But I think he should look a little bit harder. It is not because I feel miffed, it is for the women who died who, in my view, should not have."
He said police prevented him from keeping his own records of the case due to security concerns, and urged Scotland Yard to search its files properly for confirmation of his version of events.
His account contradicts a book he wrote 10 years ago, The Jigsaw Man, in which he said there was no link between Miss Nickell's murder and Green Chain Walk attacks, but he now insists he was guided away from his original views at the insistence of senior detectives.
"I took up with the police the psychological characteristics of the Green Chain rapist," Mr Britton said.
"I told them where they would find him and how they would find him. They did not listen. They did not want to know.
"The people on the Nickell inquiry were profoundly unable to accept the linkage between the Green Chain rapes, the Nickell murder and later the Bisset murders."
The profiler, who also helped in the Fred West murders and in the hunt for the killers of James Bulger, said that following the Nickell murder in July 1992 he was told to concentrate Mr Stagg, who has now been proved completely innocent, and to ignore theories linking Miss Nickell's death with other crimes.
"They said to me that I was wrong. They were absolutely adamant that it would be arrogant of me to continue with that view," said Mr Britton.
"That is one overriding recollection and source of concern."
In fact, he said he was told by officers on the Bisset inquiry that Napper had been "positively ID'd out" of the Wimbledon Common crime on his arrest.
During a press conference last week, Scotland Yard officers were quick to point out that Mr Britton's book specifically stated that the various crimes were unconnected, even citing the page number in the paperback volume.
But the psychologist said that after writing the book there was a "turning point" when the Met began re-examining the evidence against Napper in relation to Miss Nickell's murder.
"I thought 'hang on, it looks as though my original view is the correct one'," he said.
Mr Britton insisted that the covert methods used in the Nickell inquiry, which led to Mr Stagg being wrongly accused of the crime after undercover officer Lizzie James began corresponding with him, were still a "splendid investigative technique" providing officers handled it properly.
He called for a "detached, judicial inquiry" into all the Napper murders and the Green Chain Walk investigations.
A Scotland Yard spokesman said there had been wide-ranging improvements to the way murders and sex crimes are investigated over the last 16 years.
He added: "If any third party wants to launch a further inquiry that is entirely their prerogative, if they have the power to do so."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/3867783/Criminal-profiler-says-Rachel-Nickells-killer-could-have-been-arrested-within-half-an-hour.html

« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 07:55:49 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #294 on: April 15, 2019, 01:36:58 PM »
Nicholas what makes you so sure that BG is the perp?

BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.  As such a re-trial was ordered and the jury found him not guilty by a unanimous verdict.  Unfortunately we do not know how jurors arrive at verdicts ie what weight, if any, jurors place on the various pieces of evidence.  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue.

I think it unlikely BG was the perp based on the fact unless he had Jill under surveillance he could not possibly know she was going to arrive at Gowan Ave when she did.  Therefore he struck lucky.  Also various people claim to have seen what they believe was the perp leaving the soc/vicinity and yet the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG and they were unable to pick out BG during an identity parade.  Plus imo the way in which the murder was carried out would appear to involve a highly skilled hit person and there's no evidence BG was capable of operating in such a way.

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #295 on: April 15, 2019, 01:43:24 PM »
The early e-fit does not appear to depict BG - see attached.

If the e-fit is accurate and depicted BG it could be expected that neighbours and those working in the drop-in centre which BG visited would soon alert police.  Maybe the e-fit is not particularly reliable as those claiming to have seen the perp did not get a good enough view or those claiming to have seen the perp were mistaken.

Alternatively the hit person disguised him/herself well and/or he/she was recruited from abroad where publicity would be minimal if at all.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #296 on: April 15, 2019, 01:49:55 PM »
Nicholas what makes you so sure that BG is the perp?

BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed. 

Circumstantial evidence in cases like this, when taken together, still hold weight, whether you like it or not.

Explain what you mean by “fatally flawed”



« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 02:50:46 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #297 on: April 15, 2019, 01:56:17 PM »
The early e-fit does not appear to depict BG - see attached.

If the e-fit is accurate and depicted BG it could be expected that neighbours and those working in the drop-in centre which BG visited would soon alert police.   
.

You say the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG but what are YOU comparing it to?

I presume when you refer to the drop in centre you mean HAFAD, who btw DID alert the police! As did others; which if you had a genuine interest in this case and had done your research, you would know.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 02:00:32 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #298 on: April 15, 2019, 01:57:52 PM »
Alternatively the hit person disguised him/herself well and/or he/she was recruited from abroad where publicity would be minimal if at all.

What did Hamish Campbell say in the recent BBC documentary re the perp?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #299 on: April 15, 2019, 02:18:41 PM »
BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.  As such a re-trial was ordered and the jury found him not guilty by a unanimous verdict.  Unfortunately we do not know how jurors arrive at verdicts ie what weight, if any, jurors place on the various pieces of evidence.  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue.


N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1355030613000592?via%3Dihub

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf


abstract
"The likelihood ratio (LR) is a probabilistic method that has been championed as a ‘simple rule’ for evaluating the probative value of forensic evidence in court. Intuitively, if the LR is greater than one then the evidence supports the prosecution hypothesis; if the LR is less than one it supports the defence hypothesis, and if the LR is equal to one then the evidence favours neither (and so is considered ‘neutral’—having no probative value). It can be shown by Bayes' theorem that this simple relationship only applies to pairs of hypotheses for which one is the negation of the other (i.e. to mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses) and is not applicable otherwise. We show how easy it can be – even for evidence experts – to use pairs of hypotheses that they assume are mutually exclusive and exhaustive but are not, and hence to arrive at erroneous conclusions about the value of evidence using the LR. Furthermore, even when mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses are used there are extreme restrictions as to what can be concluded about the probative value of evidence just from a LR. Most importantly, while the distinction between source-level hypotheses (such as defendant was/was not at the crime scene) and offence-level hypotheses (defendant is/is not guilty) is well known, it is not widely under- stood that a LR for evidence about the former generally has no bearing on the LR of the latter. We show for the first time (using Bayesian networks) the full impact of this problem, and conclude that it is only the LR of the offence level hypotheses that genuinely determines the probative value of the evidence. We investigate common scenarios in which evidence has a LR of one but still has significant probative value (i.e. is not neutral as is commonly assumed). As illustration we consider the ramifications of these points for the case of Barry George. The successful appeal against his conviction for the murder of Jill Dando was based primarily on the argument that the firearm discharge residue (FDR) evidence, assumed to support the prosecution hypothesis at the original trial, actually had a LR equal to one and hence was ‘neutral’. However, our review of the appeal transcript shows numerous examples of the problems with the use of hypotheses identified above. We show that if one were to follow the arguments recorded in the Appeal judgement verbatim, then contrary to the Appeal conclusion, the probative value of the FDR evidence may not have been neutral as was concluded
N Fenton et al "When ‘neutral’ evidence still has probative value (with implications from the Barry George Case) 
https://www.scienceandjusticejournal.com/article/S1355-0306(13)00059-2/pdf
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 02:02:10 PM by Nicholas »
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation