Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 281161 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #525 on: January 23, 2019, 10:01:51 AM »
That's an admission from you that you have misjudged me... It's not the absence of knowledge that's the problem but the presumption of knowledge from people such as you.... I doubt there is anyone on this forum that has the knowledge to make an informed decision

I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #526 on: January 23, 2019, 10:07:54 AM »
I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.
Isn't that precisely what Theresa May has been doing for the last two years? 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #527 on: January 23, 2019, 10:13:55 AM »
I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.

I think they should accept it too... And we should leave... I think the uncertainty is causing more problems than actually  leaving... It seems the border between the divided Ireland is the main problem

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #528 on: January 23, 2019, 11:05:54 AM »
I think they should accept it too... And we should leave... I think the uncertainty is causing more problems than actually  leaving... It seems the border between the divided Ireland is the main problem

I agree. This in fighting is damaging our democracy, our country's reputation and MP's credibilty.  The lack of a border between Eire and Northern Ireland was confirmed with an international agreenment. If the UK leave the EU they will, in effect, be breaching that legally binding agreement.

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #529 on: January 23, 2019, 11:13:20 AM »
I agree. This in fighting is damaging our democracy, our country's reputation and MP's credibilty.  The lack of a border between Eire and Northern Ireland was confirmed with an international agreenment. If the UK leave the EU they will, in effect, be breaching that legally binding agreement.
Did the Leave Campaign have an answer to this dilemma pre-referendum?  It didn't seem to matter much to anyone then, it seems a bit short-sighted not to have recognised that Brexit would ultimately cause the break up of the union.  Mind you when I have discussed this issue with English Brexiteers, so passionate are they to "take back control" they have admitted they couldn't give a stuff about NI and now think (despite years of being ardent Unionists in the past) that reunification is probably the best solution.  Crazy or what.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #530 on: January 23, 2019, 11:54:37 AM »
Did the Leave Campaign have an answer to this dilemma pre-referendum?  It didn't seem to matter much to anyone then, it seems a bit short-sighted not to have recognised that Brexit would ultimately cause the break up of the union.  Mind you when I have discussed this issue with English Brexiteers, so passionate are they to "take back control" they have admitted they couldn't give a stuff about NI and now think (despite years of being ardent Unionists in the past) that reunification is probably the best solution.  Crazy or what.

Neither Leavers or Remainers appear to have give any thought to the Irish problem. As many of them were politicians they were clearly incompetent.

I can't comment on what your 'English Brexiteers' are telling you, because it's just hearsay. 

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #531 on: January 23, 2019, 12:10:24 PM »
Neither Leavers or Remainers appear to have give any thought to the Irish problem. As many of them were politicians they were clearly incompetent.

I can't comment on what your 'English Brexiteers' are telling you, because it's just hearsay.
I don't require you to comment on it, I'm simply telling you the way the discussion went - you of course are perfectly entitled to think I am making it all up, but I'm not.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #532 on: January 23, 2019, 12:12:55 PM »
Haha!  Yes - this:

Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag. Among its many contradictions, perhaps the one in which the gap between rhetoric and reality yawns most widely is this one.

On the one hand, all the evidence is that neither those who voted for Brexit nor those who are seeking to drive it to the hardest possible conclusion give a good goddamn for the union, and in particular for Northern Ireland’s place within it. On the other, they are pretending to be willing to walk away from the Brexit negotiations at any cost if the bloody Irish and the scheming Europeans don’t stop making proposals for dealing with the border question that would – horror of horrors – undermine what Theresa May calls “our precious union”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #533 on: January 23, 2019, 12:15:33 PM »
And from the same article:

when asked whether “the unravelling of the peace process in Northern Ireland” is a “price worth paying” for Brexit that allows them to “take back control”, fully 83% of leave voters and 73% of Conservative voters agree that it is. This is not, surely, mere mindless cruelty – it expresses a deep belief that Northern Ireland is not “us”, that what happens “over there” is not our responsibility.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #534 on: January 23, 2019, 01:23:38 PM »
2Sony confirmed it is moving its European headquarters from London to Amsterdam.

The chief executive of the luxury carmaker Bentley said the company was stockpiling parts, describing Brexit as a “killer” threatening his firm’s profitability."
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #535 on: January 23, 2019, 01:27:53 PM »
Haha!  Yes - this:

Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag. Among its many contradictions, perhaps the one in which the gap between rhetoric and reality yawns most widely is this one.

On the one hand, all the evidence is that neither those who voted for Brexit nor those who are seeking to drive it to the hardest possible conclusion give a good goddamn for the union, and in particular for Northern Ireland’s place within it. On the other, they are pretending to be willing to walk away from the Brexit negotiations at any cost if the blwonderoody Irish and the scheming Europeans don’t stop making proposals for dealing with the border question that would – horror of horrors – undermine what Theresa May calls “our precious union”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland

I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #536 on: January 23, 2019, 01:34:44 PM »
“CME Group Inc. will move its foreign-exchange forwards and swaps venue, which has trading volumes of about $15 billion a day, from London to Amsterdam, while Cboe Global Markets Inc. will shift most European equities trading to its market in the Dutch capital after Brexit.”. The latest moves follow CME’s decision last year to move its 200 billion-euro-a-day ($227 billion) short-term financing market to Amsterdam.

Its London business will continue to oversee just 3 billion euros of daily Swiss and U.K. stock trades. Transaction fees that currently generate tax revenue for the U.K. Treasury will in future go to the Dutch authorities.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #537 on: January 23, 2019, 01:37:48 PM »
I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
You forgot another fact - Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As did Scotland.  Which is the preferred outcome for English Briexiteers - the Union surviving but we stay in Europe, or the union collapsing and England out of Europe?  That could end up being a reality.   The English Brexiteers I have spoken to prefer the latter option, which IMO is insanity. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #538 on: January 23, 2019, 01:49:18 PM »
I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
Globalists like Dyson are in the fortunate position to be able to exploit workers abroad and take advantage of tax loopholes and lower rates elsewhere to maximise profits and to forge new markets wherever the fancy takes them - he's all for that type of globalisation.  As Singapore has just signed a free trade agreement with the EU he really has got it made.  Savvy chappy, but he's really pissed off a few people with this announcement.  Not that he will care, unless a threatened boycott of his products takes hold, which is unlikely as people in this country are not very good at putting their money where their mouth is, IMO. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #539 on: January 23, 2019, 02:47:46 PM »
You forgot another fact - Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As did Scotland.  Which is the preferred outcome for English Briexiteers - the Union surviving but we stay in Europe, or the union collapsing and England out of Europe?  That could end up being a reality.   The English Brexiteers I have spoken to prefer the latter option, which IMO is insanity.

It was a UK vote, not a Northern Irish or Scottish vote, so that's immaterial.
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