Author Topic: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.  (Read 17841 times)

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Offline carlymichelle

The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« on: October 22, 2018, 02:19:25 PM »
Didnt  her mother  kill her???
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 03:16:35 PM by John »

Offline John

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2018, 03:22:21 PM »
Didnt  her mother  kill her???

Both the mother and the uncle separately confessed to killing Joana but early on the police were desperate to find the child and that is why they did what they did to them out of sheer exasperation.  One has to remember that at that point the child could have been injured and dying so urgency was needed. What the police did was unethical but necessary imo. And before anyone shouts police brutality I must point out that this happens in every country in the world to a greater or lesser extent.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 03:16:49 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline misty

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2018, 05:16:18 PM »
Both the mother and the uncle separately confessed to killing Joana but early on the police were desperate to find the child and that is why they did what they did to them out of sheer exasperation.  One has to remember that at that point the child could have been injured and dying so urgency was needed. What the police did was unethical but necessary imo. And before anyone shouts police brutality I must point out that this happens in every country in the world to a greater or lesser extent.

Joana disappeared on 12th September. How many days had lapsed during which she could have been injured & dying before Leonor & Joao were tortured to ascertain where Joana was? Even to the uninitiated of Portuguese police methods, your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2018, 05:17:35 PM »
didnt  her mother  kill her???

She was convicted for it in a country where the legal system rules that information obtained under duress is inadmissible.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2018, 05:39:35 PM »
Joana disappeared on 12th September. How many days had lapsed during which she could have been injured & dying before Leonor & Joao were tortured to ascertain where Joana was? Even to the uninitiated of Portuguese police methods, your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.

Amaral sued Correia regarding the torture of cipriano claiming she, was tortured to extract a confession... Amaral never challenged this claim

Offline xtina

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2018, 09:13:25 PM »
Joana disappeared on 12th September. How many days had lapsed during which she could have been injured & dying before Leonor & Joao were tortured to ascertain where Joana was? Even to the uninitiated of Portuguese police methods, your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.

your excuse for their actions seems rather "frivolous" IMO.


What are you on about here..............

Portuguese police methods........

At least they are still alive............

People die here in uk police custody ..........frequently.......

for far less.............imo
Always listen to both sides of the story before you judge.

The first storyteller you will always find has modified the story, for there benefit BE WISE.

Offline Carana

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 10:35:14 PM »
I was totally gobsmacked when I was finally able to read the initial judgement (which picks up on points in the investigation) and the initial trial. That it ever came to court is beyond my comprehension, whether the mother and  /  or brother are in fact guilty of some action that resulted in her (as yet unproven) death or not.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 02:56:15 PM by John »

Offline Carana

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2018, 06:41:31 AM »
I'm not disputing the fact that evidence obtained under duress is inadmissible. My concern is that people can be browbeaten, or threatened, into denying it, just as some will falsely claim duress. There were no CCTV recordings of interrogations back then (a recommendation for audio recordings of arguido interviews was only introduced many years later), and would therefore be difficult to establish either way, unless medical treatment were sought.

I can think of at least two key moments (aside from the "slippery stairs" incident) involving the police in which CCTV recordings would have been useful. One concerns what actually transpired during Leonor's first detention and the conditions under which she was held; the other concerns the circumstances leading up to Joćo's "chopping-up" "confession".

I have suspicions about both, but have found no way of verifying them either way. Nor have I been able to ascertain whether their legal counsel ever did either.

A third involves a certain lawyer who freely admitted bluffing Joćo into believing that other convicts were going to kill him unless Joćo agreed to a confession.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 03:02:19 PM by John »

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2018, 12:49:48 PM »
I'm not disputing the fact that evidence obtained under duress is inadmissible. My concern is that people can be browbeaten, or threatened, into denying it, just as some will falsely claim duress. There were no CCTV recordings of interrogations back then (a recommendation for audio recordings of arguido interviews was only introduced many years later), and would therefore be difficult to establish either way, unless medical treatment were sought.

I can think of at least two key moments (aside from the "slippery stairs" incident) involving the police in which CCTV recordings would have been useful. One concerns what actually transpired during Leonor's first detention and the conditions under which she was held; the other concerns the circumstances leading up to Joćo's "chopping-up" "confession".

I have suspicions about both, but have found no way of verifying them either way. Nor have I been able to ascertain whether their legal counsel ever did either.

A third involves a certain lawyer who freely admitted bluffing Joćo into believing that other convicts were going to kill him unless Joćo agreed to a confession.

"If you have evidence the codes were not adhered to let's see it".

It would appear there is no evidence then. Just suspicion based on hearsay.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2018, 01:06:17 PM »
"If you have evidence the codes were not adhered to let's see it".

It would appear there is no evidence then. Just suspicion based on hearsay.
Did the defendant ever claim to have been tortured?
Moderation
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2018, 07:38:09 PM »
Are you talking about Leonor ?
The one who was charged.  Did she claim to being tortured?
Moderation
John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Carana

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2018, 08:30:06 PM »
"If you have evidence the codes were not adhered to let's see it".

It would appear there is no evidence then. Just suspicion based on hearsay.

I'm not sure where  to look for evidence.

Re the Leonor issue: I couldn't find anything apart from a CdaM article stating that Leonor had been seen late at night after her interrogation, pending her arraignment the following morning. I did find a vague reference to blood on a seat, from memory in one of the judgements, but which didn't appear to have been investigated, apart from having been attriuted to  "menstrual blood". I could hunt back to find where I already pointed that out, but it would take time. That explanation could be true, or might  not be. Even if it is, the question that it raised for me was what her detention conditions over that interrogation period actually were. It's  not clear for how much time  she had a lawyer present, aside from signing on the dotted line.

Re the Joćo issue: in an in-depth interview with Leandro (way before the Madeleine case) cf the sub-forum, Leandro found his behaviour odd that day (Leandro was present to provide the keys to the house). That could be because Joćo was facing up to the enormity of what he had done, or it could equally be because he'd been threatened, beaten, or whatever, to coerce a confession. There's no way of knowing from what I've been able to find in what's readily online.

In this case, the case files aren't online, only the judgements and - largely -  CdaM tabloid articles to go on.

As I've mentioned numerous times before (on the  sub-forum), I've come across assertions in the judgements that left me wondering whether I was on a different planet. For example, unless I've misunderstood, it could be taken as fact that as most kids return home, she therefore did as well.

Offline Carana

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2018, 08:33:13 PM »
Did the defendant ever claim to have been tortured?

She was taken from a day of "non-formal" interviews at the police station to hospital.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Joana Cipriano case revisited.
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2018, 09:07:43 PM »
The one who was charged.  Did she claim to being tortured?

Yes