Author Topic: About drawback or backspatter.  (Read 75565 times)

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david1819

  • Guest
Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #180 on: January 22, 2016, 07:42:25 PM »
I don't assume I know you make things up because I actually know how to read.  What things actually state versus your mischaracterizations are never the same.

I already explained a dozen times how and why your claims are complete distortions. You chose not to rebut my points because you could not and instead just pretend I never posted any rebuttal because you would rather live in fantasyland than face reality.,

At least a dozen times here and on blue I pointed out to you that in the following Adams simply tells COLP to query other police about the state of Sheila's body:

I pointed out that COLP queried the people in question and they said the photos the crime scene police say they took before moving Sheiala's body accurately depict how her body was found by the raid team.  You choose to IGNORE the testimony of the raid team and the crime scene officers in favor of Adams who admits his memory was foggy because 6 years had passed and thus said ask the others they woudl know better than him.  Only a fool or someone out to intentionally lie would assert the above notes is absolute proof that her body was moved and that the above notes should be given to blood experts to use in assessing photos of her body.  Are you a fool or intentionally distorting?

My claims are not distortions it is you who infact distort, I only copy and paste images or texts of the evidence to prove a source, you then cover the evidence I present in a thick layer of BS consisting of your opinions and assumptions hoping people will buy it.

As for Police moving the body, How can I ignore the Raid team testimony when it has never been publicly released? What has been presented as raid team 'testimony' are typed up statements all IDENTICAL to one other the only difference is the name and signature on the paper. The original notebooks and raid testimony will most probably prove the Police messed up the body before taking the crime scene photos, thus they have presented typed testimony identical to one another and refuse to release the originals.
 
Before Jeremy got access to those COLP interviews describing the discrepancies in the crime scene photos and the desciptions of those who had first witnessed the body with their own eyes. This was presented to the COA as part of new prosecution evidence.

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

With the notes from the police this can now infact be used as part of defence. And if the original Raid team statements get released then even better.


I have also pointed out numerous times to you how you totally mischaracterized Davidson's testimony.  No where in his testimony did he claim to collect a weapon that had red paint on the barrel.  The CID6 forms he filled out were even provided to him as exhibits so he could see what he collected from the scene on Aug 7-8.  These forms are posted on blue.  He simply said he heard that blood was on the barrel of a rifle found downstairs. What rifle did he find downstairs?  He didn't find any rifle downstairs. The only rifle he collected was the murder weapon.  The only other firearm they seized was a shotgun. They took the Anschutz and a shotgun.  He didn't say anything about personally seeing a rifle downstairs let alone seeing a rifle that had red paint nor did he claim he personally took any rifle from downstairs.  You thus MADE UP the claim that he said he personally saw a rifle with red paint on it. He said no such thing he said that he HEARD that there was paint on a rifle and that is why they took paint samples.  Either 1) he heard people talking about paint on the moderator and assumed it was found on some other weapon or 2) back in 1985 he knew it was on the moderator but because this was 6 years he later he forgot and was thoroughly mixed up and could no longer remember accurately.


Again your making assumptions, all I did was post the transcripts of the relevant COLP interview, it speaks for itself

So your claims were totally untrue and either the product of extreme incompetence or intentional distortion which is the case?

Neither!

As for Vanezis his claims to CAL were absurd and totally contrary to his trial testimony.  At trial he testified the insides of her hands were free of blood when she arrived at the mortuary.  Therefore his suggestion to CAL that maybe she had blood on the inside of her hands when she arrived at the mortuary but he washed such off is clearly wrong and the product of memory loss 26 years later. BUT EVEN WORSE, he told CAL maybe he meant in his autopsy report that the inside of her hands were free of blood after he washed them. That is absolutely ludicrous. What matters is whether she had blood before being washed. To say she was free of blood after being washed would be a totally ridiculous statement. I have never read a ME report that indicated any body part was clean after being washed.  They always detail the condition before being washed because that is what is relevant.  Anyone who fails to recognize such is either biased or a fool.

How dare I give the autopsy report its natural logical meaning which accords which his trial testimony. How dare I choose to accept his trial testimony which was given when things were still fresh in his mind instead of going with claims made 26 years later that conflict with his contemporaneous statements and are absurd.  But I'm funny like that I am not controlled by bias I actually want the real facts so I don't pretend extra rifles were collected from WHF when they were not and don't pretend extra rifles had been present at WHF when they were not and don't pretend that Sheila's body was moved before the initial photos taken since there is no evidence to support the claim.

In contrast people who are biased and want to pretend that Sheila had blood inside her hand choose to ignore the contemporaneous evidence and instead rely upon a ridiculous claim that maybe Vanezis meant her inside hands were free of blood after being washed. People who are biased and want to pretend that police lied about paint being on the moderator say it was on a rifle downstairs on the basis of Davidson's hearsay even though there were no other rifles at the scene and all the testimony establishes it was on the moderator. Biased people who want to pretend police moved her body before the initial photos were taken will distort anything they can to pretend there is evidence of such though there is none.  In the meantime such has nothing to do with reading the blood evidence.

Again your ignorance of the evidence shows no limit.

How dare you ignore Vanezis original autopsy were he claims it appear that Sheilas hand caused the hand print on the dress. instead you go by an autopsy report he makes over a month later after the bodies are cremated and his memory is not fresh


You then continue to go by the very version of his autopsy that he himself contradicts under oath at trial

Rivlin - I am asking you about the staining, and I am asking you whether it occurred to you then, or if it didn't then whether it occurs to you now, that this staining which appears on that nightdress may have been caused by directly pressing blood-stained fingers against the cloth?
Vanezis - Yes, I mean of course it is an obvious position

Rivlin - It is an obvious position and it assumes that obvious appearance doesn't it?
Vanezis. That is right yes. 



And if you are still in denial this is also mentioned at the COA paragraph  517.

However, whilst Mr Ismail rightly recorded the evidence of Dr Vanezis, Mr Turner was able to point to a note made by Dr Vanezis at the time of the post-mortem examination that read:

"bloodstained palm prints on nightdress matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from R hand. "




The blood was dry by the time police entered. So even if police had moved her body it has no implications at all for reading the blood evidence. The blood proves Sheila was sitting propped up against something when shot.  Had she been lying down the blood would not have leaked down her gown. After she died someone moved her causing the blood flow to change and causing a blood pool to form.  The Bible was placed in such pool of blood.

The evidence from Dr Cavalli and Professor Marco Meloni shows the blood the was still wet when the photographs were taken.
 
He didn't simply have second hand accounts he had handled gunshots before simply not as many as in America.  This was given as an excuse for why he missed things she should have recognized like a problem with Sheila holding the gun at non-contact range at an odd angle to fire the first shot.  While he missed things he should not have those things he recognized can't be discounted and are still supported today including that she was seated when shot because the blood evidence proves it.  This doesn't undermine the testimony of the other experts at all.  You just don't want to believe the evidence so make up any pathetic excuse you can to justify ignorign the evidence.  That doesn't make you live on planet Earth it means you are controlled and consumed by bias and choose to live in an alternate reality.

The usual ramblings and insults when you have nothing else to say

Julie could not have gotten from the extended relatives that Jeremy was plotting to kill his family and frame Sheila.  She could not have gotten from the family the notion he told her tonight is the night when they spoke around 11PM.  She could not have gotten from the family that in his call after the murders that he told her he had not gone to bed yet and the plan was going well.  The family certainly had no reason to tell her to make up a hitman story nor would she make such up. He didn't want her to know he was so heartless he personally killed the boys. The family could not have told her about the glove coming off.  The family could not have told her about the drugs or robbery. Rivlin said what he said solely to try to get the jury to downplay what Julie said because what she said was so damning.  He was Jeremy's advocate that was his job there is nothing surprising at all that he said such unless one lives in bizarro world.

There is no proof Jeremy said "tonight is the night" as it comes from Julie alone and is absent from her original statements. For all we know she could have got the Hitman theory from the relatives. The relatives were onto  Matthew McDonald after it was discovered that he and Jeremy were cultivating cannabis plants and would often smoke drugs together, Mathew Macdonald was rumoured locally to be a mercenary in North Africa. This is what he said

 “this was pure fabrication but I kept it going at times because it made people think I was somebody but it was totally untrue.”


It makes perfect sense. Jeremy's drugs buddy is believed by many to be a mercenary/hitman. Hence its very possible that Robert Boultflour brought Macdonald into his theories.

Offline Myster

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #181 on: January 22, 2016, 08:48:07 PM »
Re: Tonight or never!

CAL'S reference to Julie Mugford's w/s, 18 November 1985:

‘You sound pissed off,’ she said. Jeremy told her, ‘I’ve been thinking on the tractor and the crime will have to be tonight or never.’

Julie Mugford's reply to Rivlin at trial:

Rivlin turned to the telephone call from Jeremy at 10pm on 6 August, comparing her later description with her first witness statement. Julie responded defiantly: ‘I am not a liar. He said, “It’s tonight or never”, as simple as that. He told me, and I didn’t say it to the police initially because I was scared.’ Then she burst out: ‘Is that okay? Is it excusable for somebody to be scared?’ She began to cry violently and covered her face, mumbling, ‘I’m sorry, my lord.’

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. Pan Macmillan
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #182 on: January 22, 2016, 09:13:55 PM »
My claims are not distortions it is you who infact distort, I only copy and paste images or texts of the evidence to prove a source, you then cover the evidence I present in a thick layer of BS consisting of your opinions and assumptions hoping people will buy it.

As for Police moving the body, How can I ignore the Raid team testimony when it has never been publicly released? What has been presented as raid team 'testimony' are typed up statements all IDENTICAL to one other the only difference is the name and signature on the paper. The original notebooks and raid testimony will most probably prove the Police messed up the body before taking the crime scene photos, thus they have presented typed testimony identical to one another and refuse to release the originals.

1) By definition originals are never provided to the defense the defense always gets copies

2) They got copies of the handwritten notes not just the typewritten the defense received everything.  That is how Mike was able to post some of the handwritten ones. Mike and other supporters lie pretending there is still evidence concealed to pretend the raid team wrote something different than the typed statements say but the defense can't prove it because the police won't reveal them. This is sheer horse crap. Various police testified at trial, were interviewed by Dickinson and also by COLP.

3) COLP had access to everything including personally questioning the raid team.  That questioning resulted in them convinced police didn't move her body.  You falsely claim there is evidence they were moved on the basis of Adams telling COLP to ask the others if she was moved because he wasn't sure.  That is all you produced a single notepage where Adams told COLP to query specific officers as to whether she was moved.

It is indeed dishonest to suggest that Adams telling COLP to query the other officers is proof that she was moved.  Worse you keep saying you have statements plural though all you can point to is notes from a single statement- that of Adams.  Did you not learn the difference between singular and plural in grade school?

All Adams said is to query others because he was unsure.  Of the people Adams asked COLP to query did any of the tell COLP that they moved her body or saw anyone move her body before leaving the scene to the crime scene officers?  NO!  Did any of the crime scene officers say they moved her body before taking the initial photos?  No they told COLP the same thing they testified to at trial- that they took photos and then moved her so they could take photos showing the blood on her gown.  Your claim police admitted to COLP they moved her body was a blatant lie.  You are little better than Mike and indeed like Mike you keep suggesting that there are hidden statements and that the typewritten statements are vastly different from the ones they handwrote.  What a joke!

Before Jeremy got access to those COLP interviews describing the discrepancies in the crime scene photos and the desciptions of those who had first witnessed the body with their own eyes. This was presented to the COA as part of new prosecution evidence.

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

With the notes from the police this can now infact be used as part of defence. And if the original Raid team statements get released then even better.


Once again you demonstrate how clueless you truly are.

1) There are no COLP statements plural that claim police moved Sheila's body.

2) There is not even a COLP statement singular where a cop says Sheila's body was moved.  There is a statement singular where Adams said to query others as to whether Sheila was moved before the initial photos were taken because he wasn't sure.  These others were queried and the raid team members as well as Jones all said that none of them moved her body and the photos reflect how she was found and the crime scene personnel say they didn't move her until after the initial photos were taken and then after that they moved her and took additional photos. 

3) Ismail's evidence absolutely kills Jeremy if offers no value to the defense at all. Ismail asserted that Sheila was moved by the killer very soon after she was killed. Ismail said:

A) Sheila was not lying flat when she died because the way the blood leaked down her gown
B) After dying she was dragged flat and the gun placed on her body 
C) After being dragged flat blood leaked down the side of her neck to the floor
D) While the pool of blood referred to in B was still wet the killer placed the Bible in it

Thus he concluded someone else had to be at the scene when Sheila died.  The police moving Sheila's body many hours after her blood was dry would not affect any of these assessments. Only someone delusional would claim that the above assessments can be used to aid Jeremy.  They prove Sheila didn't kill herself.  The notion that police moved her flat then stuck the gun on her and placed the Bible in the pool of blood is absurd.  Her blood was already dry by the time police entered. The raid team says she was flat and the gun was already on her body when they entered.  That is also how Dr. Craig said he saw her body when he declared her dead.  If the raid team had moved her flat then no blood would have leaked down the side of her neck and no blood pool would have formed because her wounds were all dry at that point.  None of them say they moved the Bible to the pool of blood and indeed it would have been dry so would not have gotten on the bible had they placed there.

You keep spouting nonsense from Mike and the campaign team who are to this case what the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are to 9/11.  In the process you look quite bad.

Again your making assumptions, all I did was post the transcripts of the relevant COLP interview, it speaks for itself

Neither!

Again your ignorance of the evidence shows no limit.

I'm ignorant for facing reality?

You didn't post a single transcript that established police moved Sheila's body before taking the initial photos.  You posted notes taken from an interview of Adams.  The notes said Adams was unsure whether the photos showed Sheila as he saw her. He suggested they query other officers.  To someone who understands English it means he wasn't sure if she was moved or not so suggested they ask other officers.  That is not proof they moved her except in your imagination.

As for Davidson no where does he suggest he personally saw a rifle with red paint on it.  He said he heard they took samples because a rifle found downstairs had red paint on it.  Your claim he said he saw such is false.  That means either you intentionally lied or you are incompetent at understanding what you read.  Either way you don't look very good. There was no rifle found downstairs period let alone with paint on it. There was only 1 rifle at the scene. Davidson misunderstood what others told him or he had a faulty memory 6 years later.  That is all his statement establishes.  Pretending he said he saw another rifle with paint on it and can establish such a rifle was collected from the scene and sent to the lab fails miserably.


How dare you ignore Vanezis original autopsy were he claims it appear that Sheilas hand caused the hand print on the dress. instead you go by an autopsy report he makes over a month later after the bodies are cremated and his memory is not fresh


You then continue to go by the very version of his autopsy that he himself contradicts under oath at trial

Rivlin - I am asking you about the staining, and I am asking you whether it occurred to you then, or if it didn't then whether it occurs to you now, that this staining which appears on that nightdress may have been caused by directly pressing blood-stained fingers against the cloth?
Vanezis - Yes, I mean of course it is an obvious position

Rivlin - It is an obvious position and it assumes that obvious appearance doesn't it?
Vanezis. That is right yes. 



And if you are still in denial this is also mentioned at the COA paragraph  517.

However, whilst Mr Ismail rightly recorded the evidence of Dr Vanezis, Mr Turner was able to point to a note made by Dr Vanezis at the time of the post-mortem examination that read:

"bloodstained palm prints on nightdress matches bloodstains appeared to have transferred from R hand. "

I don't ignore anything. I take everything into account while you cherry pick to pretend things are as you wish them to be instead of how they are.

In his hand written notes he indicated blood was on her outer palm.  In his autopsy report and on the witness stand he called this area her wrist.  He didn't want to confuse anyone into thinking he meant there was blood on the inside palm of her hand so called it the wrist in his autopsy report.  This is the area he stated in his autopsy report and testified at trial caused the stain to her dress. 

On the witness stand on cross examination he said it might look to a layman like the stain on her dress was made by fingers but maintained it wasn't, he maintained it was made by her hand meaning her wrist and outer palm.

 Your attempt to say he admitted her fingers caused the stain is nonsense.  You spend your life distorting and for what reason I have no idea because all it does it make you look foolish.


The evidence from Dr Cavalli and Professor Marco Meloni shows the blood the was still wet when the photographs were taken.

They presented their joke of an opinion that the blood was wet when the photos were taken.  Your claim they presented evidence to prove such is false. They had no proof of any kind to back up their claims other than the lie that Woodcock said the blood was still wet. Woodcock said no such thing even though he used leaking he meant leaked.  The blood on her face was dry when police entered and still dry when Dr Craig declared her dead  and still dry hours later when the photos were taken.

Every lie Mike and the campaign team advance you adopt it is hilarious how gullible you are. 
 


The usual ramblings and insults when you have nothing else to say

There is no proof Jeremy said "tonight is the night" as it comes from Julie alone and is absent from her original statements. For all we know she could have got the Hitman theory from the relatives. The relatives were onto  Matthew McDonald after it was discovered that he and Jeremy were cultivating cannabis plants and would often smoke drugs together, Mathew Macdonald was rumoured locally to be a mercenary in North Africa. This is what he said

 “this was pure fabrication but I kept it going at times because it made people think I was somebody but it was totally untrue.”


It makes perfect sense. Jeremy's drugs buddy is believed by many to be a mercenary/hitman. Hence its very possible that Robert Boultflour brought Macdonald into his theories.

You are confused as usual.

1) Jeremy's advocate suggested the family and Julie conspired because he was desperate and that was the best he could come up with. That he claimed such crap would only be surprising to someone who is clueless.

2) Julie claimed Jeremy told her many things and these had nothing at all to do with the extended family.  He called her shortly before the murders and 2 times shortly after the murders including calling her before police.  The family has nothing to do with what they discussed during these calls.  Her testimony about what was said is credible while his is not indeed he even lied about calling police before her.  But the issue is the family has nothing to do with this. 

3) NO ONE EXCEPT JEREMY had any reason to suggest a hitman had been used.  Jeremy had no alibi.  Had Jeremy not told Julie that a hitman had been used then Julie, police and the extended family would not have thought anything about a hitman they would have simply felt he personally killed everyone himself which is what they believed when he was tried and convicted.  Your claim that they would instinctively suspect a hitman is nonsense.   Only if he had an alibi would anyone suspect he used a hitman.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 10:45:55 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #183 on: January 22, 2016, 11:07:38 PM »
1) By definition originals are never provided to the defense the defense always gets copies

2) They got copies of the handwritten notes not just the typewritten the defense received everything.  Mike and other supporters lie pretending there is still being evidence to sort through to pretend the raid team said something different that they did but the defense can't prove it because it is hidden.

3) COLP had access to everything including personally questioning the raid team.  That questioning resulted in them convinced police didn't move her body.  You falsely claim there is evidence they were moved on the basis of Adams telling COLP to ask the others if she was moved because he wasn't sure.  That is all you produced a single notepage where Adams told COLP to query specific officers as to whether she was moved.

It is indeed dishonest to suggest that Adams telling COLP to query the other officers is proof that she was moved.  Worse you keep saying you have statements plural though that is notes from a single statement- that of  Adams.  Did you not learn the difference between singular and plural in grade school?

Of the people Adams asked COLP to query did any of the tell COLP that they moved her body or saw anyone move her body before leaving the scene to the crime scene officers?  NO!  Did any of the crime scene officers say they moved her body before taking the initial photos?  No they told COLP the same thing they testified to at trial- that they took photos and then moved her so they could take photos showing the blood on her gown.  Your claim police admitted to COLP they moved her body was a blatant lie.  You are little better than Mike and indeed like Mike you keep suggesting that there are hidden statements and that the typewritten statements are vastly different from the ones they handwrote.  What a joke!


Once again you demonstrate how clueless you truly are.

1) There are no COLP statements plural that claim police moved Sheila's body.

2) There is not even a COLP statement singular where a cop says Sheila's body was moved.  There is a statement singular where Adams said to query others as to whether Sheila was moved before the initial photos were taken because he wasn't sure.  These others were queries and the raid team members as well as Jones all said that none of them moved her body and the photos reflect how she was found and the crime scene personnel say they didn't move her until after the initial photos were taken and then after that they moved her and took additional photos. 

3) Ismail's evidence absolutely kills Jeremy if offers no value to the defense at all. Ismail asserted that Sheila was moved by the killer very soon after she was killed. Ismail said:

A) Sheila was not lying flat when she died because the way the blood leaked down her gown
B) After dying she was dragged flat and the gun placed on her body 
C) After being dragged flat blood leaked down the side of her neck to the floor
D) While the pool of blood referred to in B was still wet the killer placed the Bible in it

Thus he concluded someone else had to be at the scene when Sheila died.  The police moving Sheila's body many hours after her blood was dry would not affect any of these assessments. Only someone delusional would claim that the above assessments can be used to aid Jeremy.  They prove Sheila didn't kill herself.  The notion that police moved her flat then stuck the gun on her and placed the Bible in the pool of blood is absurd.  Her blood was already dry by the time police entered. The raid team says she was flat and the gun was already on her body when they entered.  That is also how Dr. Craig said he saw her body when he declared her dead.  If the raid team had moved her flat then no blood would have leaked down the side of her neck and no blood pool would have formed because her wounds were all dry at that point.  None of them say they moved the Bible to the pool of blood and indeed it would have been dry so would not have gotten on the bible had they placed there.

You keep spouting nonsense from Mike and the campaign team who are to this case what the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are to 9/11.  In the process you look quite bad.

I'm ignorant for facing reaility?

You didn't post a single transcript that established police moved Sheila's body before taking the initial photos.  You posted notes taken from an interview of Adams.  The notes said Adams was unsure whether the photos showed Sheila as he saw. He suggested they query other officers.  To someone who understand English it means he wasn't sure if she was moved or not so suggested they ask other officers.  That is not proof they moved her except in your imagination.

As for Davidson no where does he suggest he personally saw a rifle with red paint on it.  He said he heard they took samples because a rifle found downstairs had red paint on it.  Your claim he said he saw such is false.  That means either you intentionally lied or you are incompetent at understanding what you read.  Either way you don't look very good.

I don't ignore anything. I take everything into account while you cherry pick to pretend things are as you wish them to be instead of how they are.

In his hand written notes he indicated blood was on her outer palm.  In his autopsy report and on the witness stand he called this area her wrist.  He didn't want to confuse anyone into thinking he meant there was blood on the inside palm of her hand so called it the wrist in his autopsy report.  This is the area he said that caused the stain to her dress.

On the witness stand he said it might look to a layman like the stain on her dress was made by fingers but it wasn't, it was made by her hand.  Your attempt to say he admitted her fingers caused the stain is nonsense.  You spend your life distorting and for what reason I have no idea because all it does it make you look foolish.


They presented their joke of an opinion that the blood was wet when the photos were taken.  Your claim they presented evidence to prove such is false. They had no proof of any kind to back up their claims other than the lie that Woodcock said the blood was still wet. Woodcock said no such thing even though he used leaking he meant leaked.  The blood on her face was dry when police entered and still dry when Dr Craig declared her dead  and still dry hours later when the photos were taken.

Every lie Mike and the campaign team advance you adopt it is hilarious how gullible you are. 
 

You are confused as usual.

1) Jeremy's advocate suggested the family and Julie conspired because he was desperate and that was the best he could come up with. That he claimed such crap would only be surprising to someone who is clueless.

2) Julie claimed Jeremy told her many things and these had nothing at all to do with the extended family.  He called her shortly before the murders and 2 times shortly after the murders including calling her before police.  The family has nothing to do with what they discussed during these calls.  Her testimony about what was said is credible while his is not indeed he even lied about calling police before her.  But the issue is the family has nothing to do with this. 

3) NO ONE EXCEPT JEREMY had any reason to suggest a hitman had been used.  Jeremy had no alibi.  Had Jeremy not told Julie that a hitman had been used then Julie, police and the extended family would not have thought anything about a hitman they would have simply felt he personally killed everyone himself which is what they believed when he was tried.  Your claim that they would instinctively suspect a hitman is nonsense.

You can slag off the experts all you like wont change anything.

Lets look at PC Delgados Colp interview


Looked at video of crime scene photos as a result PC Collins and I not happy with the position of the bible by Shelia's body. I was happy with position of body in relation to the furniture. We felt they were real concerns and we spoke to DI Jones and DCI Jones.

We know photos have been withheld or destroyed its on record


We know photos and a crime scene video have been destroyed along with other evidence and statements its on Essex police own destruction schedule


Why do you expect the police to be honest? if you believe they will be honest about any mishandling you are far more gullible than I am.


I have been trying to see things from your point of view but I just can't get my head that far up my ass.
 @)(++(*

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #184 on: January 22, 2016, 11:42:37 PM »
You can slag off the experts all you like wont change anything.

Lets look at PC Delgados Colp interview


Looked at video of crime scene photos as a result PC Collins and I not happy with the position of the bible by Shelia's body. I was happy with position of body in relation to the furniture. We felt they were real concerns and we spoke to DI Jones and DCI Jones.

We know photos have been withheld or destroyed its on record


We know photos and a crime scene video have been destroyed along with other evidence and statements its on Essex police own destruction schedule


Why do you expect the police to be honest? if you believe they will be honest about any mishandling you are far more gullible than I am.


I have been trying to see things from your point of view but I just can't get my head that far up my ass.
 @)(++(*

In what you posted Delgado said that weeks later they were shown a slideshow of the photos (which he incorrectly called a video) and that he was satisfied with the location of the body but had concerns about the location of the Bible.  How does that suggest her body was moved?  In them meantime their concerns about the Bible wound up having no merit.  Others said the Bible had not been moved and the blood evidence proves it was indeed sitting in the pool of blood not down by her waist.

You have no raid team members or an other police who say they moved her body or anything else EXCEPT those who say that after photographing her they moved her then took additional photos.

You have police who say that when they saw the photos a month later when their memory was hardly fresh- they thought the Bible was closer to her waist but were not sure and ULTIMATELY were satisfied that nothing was moved.  Naturally you left that part out.

You have Adams saying 6 years later he could remember anymore and to Query others.

That doesn't even remotely establish she was moved except in your irrational mind.

There is no evidence of any photos being destroyed.  What you posted showing items destroyed was meaningless things like aerial tape of the countryside and correspondence such as a letter from Collin's parents that there was no reason at all to retain.

This is the complete defense created document you took part of:



Mike periodically makes up nonsense about this to try to pretend that there are hidden photos such as the photo he said he saw of Sheila in the kitchen and another of Sheila on the bed that he said he stole and mailed to Jeremy.

My view is the rational accurate one while you have the same irrational mentality as Mike hence adopt all his bogus claims. 

   
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 12:21:24 AM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #185 on: January 23, 2016, 12:46:31 AM »
In what you posted Delgado said that weeks later they were shown a slideshow of the photos (which he incorrectly called a video) and that he was satisfied with the location of the body but had concerns about the location of the Bible.  How does that suggest her body was moved?  In them meantime their concerns about the Bible wound up having no merit.  Others said the Bible had not been moved and the blood evidence proves it was indeed sitting in the pool of blood not down by her waist.

You have no raid team members or an other police who say they moved her body or anything else EXCEPT those who say that after photographing her they moved her then took additional photos.

You have police who say that when they saw the photos a month later when their memory was hardly fresh- they thought the Bible was closer to her waist but were not sure and ULTIMATELY were satisfied that nothing was moved.  Naturally you left that part out.

You have Adams saying 6 years later he could remember anymore and to Query others.

That doesn't even remotely establish she was moved except in your irrational mind.
   

Again and again I have to post more first hand accounts till it sinks through your thick head!. PI Millers handbook written on the day seen with his own eyes. "Daughter with .22 rifle by her right side" contradicting the photos showing it across the centre. Yet if Essex Police typed a statement a month later with a typed signature saying they found a space alien in the farm that night you would probably believe them.



There is no evidence of any photos being destroyed.  What you posted showing items destroyed was meaningless things like aerial tape of the countryside and correspondence such as a letter from Collin's parents that there was no reason at all to retain.

This is the complete defense created document you took part of:

Mike periodically makes up nonsense about this to try to pretend that there are hidden photos such as the one he said he saw of Sheila int he kitchen and another of Sheila on the bed.

My view is the rational accurate one while you have the same irrational mentality as Mike hence adopt all his bogus claims. 

Yes I have the full documents, what is wrong with just cutting the relevant parts out instead of cluttering the post and have visitors read things they don't have to?
And how are they meaningless? extracts of police calls are not meaningless. They destroyed the silicone impressions of the mantel scratches! if that is not important then what is? If the scratch marks were so such damning evidence why destroy the evidence them? Because it don't prove what Essex police have been saying.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 12:48:47 AM by david1819 »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #186 on: January 23, 2016, 01:08:56 AM »
Again and again I have to post more first hand accounts till it sinks through your thick head!. PI Millers handbook written on the day seen with his own eyes. "Daughter with .22 rifle by her right side" contradicting the photos showing it across the centre. Yet if Essex Police typed a statement a month later with a typed signature saying they found a space alien in the farm that night you would probably believe them.



Yes I have the full documents, what is wrong with just cutting the relevant parts out instead of cluttering the post and have visitors read things they don't have to?
And how are they meaningless? extracts of police calls are not meaningless. They destroyed the silicone impressions of the mantel scratches! if that is not important then what is? If the scratch marks were so such damning evidence why destroy the evidence them? Because it don't prove what Essex police have been saying.


We have all seen the full documents.  We all know that in 1996 the police were unaware that the appeal was considered open and got rid of many things that were largely useless.  There is nothing at all sinister about such.

We also know that some of the negatives were lost so that they only had the photos not the negatives for some.  That's not sinister either.  Nor was ACC Simpson taking some of the photos from the master bundle to use for lectures sinister.

The rifle wasn't down the middle of Sheila's body it was more to the right side as Miller described it.  The other police agree that is where it was and the photo confirms it.  The one making up alien stories are you and Mike...

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #187 on: January 23, 2016, 06:27:15 PM »
We have all seen the full documents.  We all know that in 1996 the police were unaware that the appeal was considered open and got rid of many things that were largely useless.  There is nothing at all sinister about such.

We also know that some of the negatives were lost so that they only had the photos not the negatives for some.  That's not sinister either.  Nor was ACC Simpson taking some of the photos from the master bundle to use for lectures sinister.

The rifle wasn't down the middle of Sheila's body it was more to the right side as Miller described it.  The other police agree that is where it was and the photo confirms it.  The one making up alien stories are you and Mike...



"By her right side" By someones side is a preposition for "beside" = the side of; next to; or parallel to. meaning not even or her.



The exhibits were destroyed just two month before a law was to come into effect making such act illegal, this is no innocent coincidence


Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #188 on: January 23, 2016, 06:32:21 PM »
"By her right side" By someones side is a preposition for "beside" = the side of; next to; or parallel to. meaning not even or her.



The exhibits were destroyed just two month before a law was to come into effect making such act illegal, this is no innocent coincidence



You say it means beside her but Miller never told anyone he meant such. In the meantime even if Miller did claim such everyone else contradicts him and the majority is more reliable than a single outlier.  My reading is he meant is was across the right side of her body.   

What was destroyed were not exhibits they were materials not used at trial.  The things they got rid of were of no conceivable value anyway.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 07:40:19 PM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

david1819

  • Guest
Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #189 on: January 23, 2016, 07:12:25 PM »
What was destroyed were not exhibits they were materials not used at trial.  The things they got rid of were of no conceivable value anyway.

On the contrary, The blood on these exhibits could have solved many answered questions. Blood patterns on Sheilas Dress and the Bible held clues not to mention DNA. Also Nevills Pajama top may have helped solve the burn marks also


Offline scipio_usmc

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #190 on: January 23, 2016, 08:18:06 PM »
On the contrary, The blood on these exhibits could have solved many answered questions. Blood patterns on Sheilas Dress and the Bible held clues not to mention DNA. Also Nevills Pajama top may have helped solve the burn marks also



There is no way that their pajama would hold any significance at all.  Aside from the burn marks holding no relevance to who committed the murders we know the pajamas didn't have any burn marks to test. 

DNA testing every drop of blood on the gowns would be pointless we already know each had the victims blood.  The nature of the blood stains themselves denote it cam from the victims. They already looked for impact spatter and found none. Jeremy's coat is the only thing that looked like it had impact spatter and the results of the testing were inconclusive. DNA testing his jacket had they saved it would have been useful to the prosecution potentially but would not have been able to do anything for Jeremy.

If they preserved Sheila's head and hair samples the defense potentially could have tested that GSR using modern methods but that's about the only testing that could have been done and even if a tiny bit of GSR was found I doubt that would have persuaded the COA to overturn the verdict.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Nicholas

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #191 on: May 14, 2020, 03:25:43 PM »
1) By definition originals are never provided to the defense the defense always gets copies

2) They got copies of the handwritten notes not just the typewritten the defense received everything.  That is how Mike was able to post some of the handwritten ones. Mike and other supporters lie pretending there is still evidence concealed to pretend the raid team wrote something different than the typed statements say but the defense can't prove it because the police won't reveal them. This is sheer horse crap. Various police testified at trial, were interviewed by Dickinson and also by COLP.

3) COLP had access to everything including personally questioning the raid team.  That questioning resulted in them convinced police didn't move her body.  You falsely claim there is evidence they were moved on the basis of Adams telling COLP to ask the others if she was moved because he wasn't sure.  That is all you produced a single notepage where Adams told COLP to query specific officers as to whether she was moved.

It is indeed dishonest to suggest that Adams telling COLP to query the other officers is proof that she was moved.  Worse you keep saying you have statements plural though all you can point to is notes from a single statement- that of Adams.  Did you not learn the difference between singular and plural in grade school?

All Adams said is to query others because he was unsure.  Of the people Adams asked COLP to query did any of the tell COLP that they moved her body or saw anyone move her body before leaving the scene to the crime scene officers?  NO!  Did any of the crime scene officers say they moved her body before taking the initial photos?  No they told COLP the same thing they testified to at trial- that they took photos and then moved her so they could take photos showing the blood on her gown.  Your claim police admitted to COLP they moved her body was a blatant lie.  You are little better than Mike and indeed like Mike you keep suggesting that there are hidden statements and that the typewritten statements are vastly different from the ones they handwrote.  What a joke!


Once again you demonstrate how clueless you truly are.

1) There are no COLP statements plural that claim police moved Sheila's body.

2) There is not even a COLP statement singular where a cop says Sheila's body was moved.  There is a statement singular where Adams said to query others as to whether Sheila was moved before the initial photos were taken because he wasn't sure.  These others were queried and the raid team members as well as Jones all said that none of them moved her body and the photos reflect how she was found and the crime scene personnel say they didn't move her until after the initial photos were taken and then after that they moved her and took additional photos. 

3) Ismail's evidence absolutely kills Jeremy if offers no value to the defense at all. Ismail asserted that Sheila was moved by the killer very soon after she was killed. Ismail said:

A) Sheila was not lying flat when she died because the way the blood leaked down her gown
B) After dying she was dragged flat and the gun placed on her body 
C) After being dragged flat blood leaked down the side of her neck to the floor
D) While the pool of blood referred to in B was still wet the killer placed the Bible in it

Thus he concluded someone else had to be at the scene when Sheila died.  The police moving Sheila's body many hours after her blood was dry would not affect any of these assessments. Only someone delusional would claim that the above assessments can be used to aid Jeremy.  They prove Sheila didn't kill herself.  The notion that police moved her flat then stuck the gun on her and placed the Bible in the pool of blood is absurd.  Her blood was already dry by the time police entered. The raid team says she was flat and the gun was already on her body when they entered.  That is also how Dr. Craig said he saw her body when he declared her dead.  If the raid team had moved her flat then no blood would have leaked down the side of her neck and no blood pool would have formed because her wounds were all dry at that point.  None of them say they moved the Bible to the pool of blood and indeed it would have been dry so would not have gotten on the bible had they placed there.

You keep spouting nonsense from Mike and the campaign team who are to this case what the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are to 9/11.  In the process you look quite bad.

I'm ignorant for facing reality?

You didn't post a single transcript that established police moved Sheila's body before taking the initial photos.  You posted notes taken from an interview of Adams.  The notes said Adams was unsure whether the photos showed Sheila as he saw her. He suggested they query other officers.  To someone who understands English it means he wasn't sure if she was moved or not so suggested they ask other officers.  That is not proof they moved her except in your imagination.

As for Davidson no where does he suggest he personally saw a rifle with red paint on it.  He said he heard they took samples because a rifle found downstairs had red paint on it.  Your claim he said he saw such is false.  That means either you intentionally lied or you are incompetent at understanding what you read.  Either way you don't look very good. There was no rifle found downstairs period let alone with paint on it. There was only 1 rifle at the scene. Davidson misunderstood what others told him or he had a faulty memory 6 years later.  That is all his statement establishes.  Pretending he said he saw another rifle with paint on it and can establish such a rifle was collected from the scene and sent to the lab fails miserably.

I don't ignore anything. I take everything into account while you cherry pick to pretend things are as you wish them to be instead of how they are.

In his hand written notes he indicated blood was on her outer palm.  In his autopsy report and on the witness stand he called this area her wrist.  He didn't want to confuse anyone into thinking he meant there was blood on the inside palm of her hand so called it the wrist in his autopsy report.  This is the area he stated in his autopsy report and testified at trial caused the stain to her dress. 

On the witness stand on cross examination he said it might look to a layman like the stain on her dress was made by fingers but maintained it wasn't, he maintained it was made by her hand meaning her wrist and outer palm.

 Your attempt to say he admitted her fingers caused the stain is nonsense.  You spend your life distorting and for what reason I have no idea because all it does it make you look foolish.


They presented their joke of an opinion that the blood was wet when the photos were taken.  Your claim they presented evidence to prove such is false. They had no proof of any kind to back up their claims other than the lie that Woodcock said the blood was still wet. Woodcock said no such thing even though he used leaking he meant leaked.  The blood on her face was dry when police entered and still dry when Dr Craig declared her dead  and still dry hours later when the photos were taken.

Every lie Mike and the campaign team advance you adopt it is hilarious how gullible you are. 
 

You are confused as usual.

1) Jeremy's advocate suggested the family and Julie conspired because he was desperate and that was the best he could come up with. That he claimed such crap would only be surprising to someone who is clueless.

2) Julie claimed Jeremy told her many things and these had nothing at all to do with the extended family.  He called her shortly before the murders and 2 times shortly after the murders including calling her before police.  The family has nothing to do with what they discussed during these calls.  Her testimony about what was said is credible while his is not indeed he even lied about calling police before her.  But the issue is the family has nothing to do with this. 

3) NO ONE EXCEPT JEREMY had any reason to suggest a hitman had been used.  Jeremy had no alibi.  Had Jeremy not told Julie that a hitman had been used then Julie, police and the extended family would not have thought anything about a hitman they would have simply felt he personally killed everyone himself which is what they believed when he was tried and convicted.  Your claim that they would instinctively suspect a hitman is nonsense.   Only if he had an alibi would anyone suspect he used a hitman.

Bump
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: About drawback or backspatter.
« Reply #192 on: May 14, 2020, 10:17:41 PM »
"By her right side" By someones side is a preposition for "beside" = the side of; next to; or parallel to. meaning not even or her.



The exhibits were destroyed just two month before a law was to come into effect making such act illegal, this is no innocent coincidence




Not sure how this popped up, but you can see perfectly that Sheila’s body is in the EXACT same position and spot in both photos. Even her nightdress is in its exact same position, as is the Bible by her arm.

The second photo was taken from a slightly different  angle (which is obvious), and the reason her arm and hand is in a lowered position in the second picture is that the police said they had to move her arm so as to photograph the blood stain on her nightdress. When they tried to put her arm back into its original position it wouldn’t stay upright as she was dead, and had been for many, many hours.

It’s ludicrous to suggest the police moved her body.

It was Jeremy Bamber who pulled her down the carpet by her feet and ankles, hence why her left foot is pointing downwards in an unusual angle: Jeremy tugged it when she was dead and Sheila’s foot remained in that strange shape as she was dead and her muscles no longer worked.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.