UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on April 05, 2013, 11:11:22 PM
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We have been told by the McCanns that they think the abductor had been observing them all week, noting their checking regime ... and even that he may have been in the apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
So why would this note - taking abductor have placed himself inside the apartment at the exact time he would expect the children to be checked on ... and then 'hide' ( behind the door is Gerry's prefered place )
That makes no sense at all
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He probably did no such thing. As I recall that is just a feeling that Gerry had, that he may have been in the apartment at the same time as him. Whenever people go through traumatic experiences they have many different ideas as to what happened. I suspect this was just one of those.
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We have been told by the McCanns that they think the abductor had been observing them all week, noting their checking regime ... and even that he may have been in the apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
So why would this note - taking abductor have placed himself inside the apartment at the exact time he would expect the children to be checked on ... and then 'hide' ( behind the door is Gerry's prefered place )
That makes no sense at all
It makes perfect sense to me. Why would he not have hidden behind the door? I don't suppose that he wanted to be caught.
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He probably did no such thing. As I recall that is just a feeling that Gerry had, that he may have been in the apartment at the same time as him. Whenever people go through traumatic experiences they have many different ideas as to what happened. I suspect this was just one of those.
In that case, Jane Tanner could not have seen the abductor making off with Madeleine at 915pm, as she claimed
At that exact moment Gerry McCann was standing in the street ( chatting to tennis buddy Jed ) directly outside the gate that lead to the open patio doors
The abductor certainly didn't pass by Gerry and Jez to get into the apartment ( to reappear moments later crossing the road with a child in his arms )
If he wasn't already in the apartment when Gerry did his check at 9.10 then Jane Tanner couldn't have seen him leaving with Madeleine five minutes later
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He probably did no such thing. As I recall that is just a feeling that Gerry had, that he may have been in the apartment at the same time as him. Whenever people go through traumatic experiences they have many different ideas as to what happened. I suspect this was just one of those.
In that case, Jane Tanner could not have seen the abductor making off with Madeleine at 915pm, as she claimed
At that exact moment Gerry McCann was standing in the street ( chatting to tennis buddy Jed ) directly outside the gate that lead to the open patio doors
The abductor certainly didn't pass by Gerry and Jez to get into the apartment ( to reappear moments later crossing the road with a child in his arms )
If he wasn't already in the apartment when Gerry did his check at 9.10 then Jane Tanner couldn't have seen him leaving with Madeleine five minutes later
The Abductor obviously left by the front door. It has never been suggested that he left by the Patio Doors.
Think about it.
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We have been told by the McCanns that they think the abductor had been observing them all week, noting their checking regime ... and even that he may have been in the apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
So why would this note - taking abductor have placed himself inside the apartment at the exact time he would expect the children to be checked on ... and then 'hide' ( behind the door is Gerry's prefered place )
That makes no sense at all
It makes perfect sense to me. Why would he not have hidden behind the door? I don't suppose that he wanted to be caught.
Perfect sense ?
Don't you think it would have made more sense to have gone into the apartment just after a check had been made ... rather than just before one was due ?
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He probably did no such thing. As I recall that is just a feeling that Gerry had, that he may have been in the apartment at the same time as him. Whenever people go through traumatic experiences they have many different ideas as to what happened. I suspect this was just one of those.
In that case, Jane Tanner could not have seen the abductor making off with Madeleine at 915pm, as she claimed
At that exact moment Gerry McCann was standing in the street ( chatting to tennis buddy Jed ) directly outside the gate that lead to the open patio doors
The abductor certainly didn't pass by Gerry and Jez to get into the apartment ( to reappear moments later crossing the road with a child in his arms )
If he wasn't already in the apartment when Gerry did his check at 9.10 then Jane Tanner couldn't have seen him leaving with Madeleine five minutes later
The Abductor obviously left by the front door. It has never been suggested that he left by the Patio Doors.
Think about it.
I'm not talking about how he got out of the apartment ... I'm talking about how he got in to it
It had to be by the open patio doors, but Gerry and Jez were standing at the gate directly outside them ... so he couldn't have got in that way without them seeing him
If he was seen a few moments later by Jane Tanner, making off with Madeleine, then he would have to have already been in there when Gerry did his check moments before
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He probably did no such thing. As I recall that is just a feeling that Gerry had, that he may have been in the apartment at the same time as him. Whenever people go through traumatic experiences they have many different ideas as to what happened. I suspect this was just one of those.
In that case, Jane Tanner could not have seen the abductor making off with Madeleine at 915pm, as she claimed
At that exact moment Gerry McCann was standing in the street ( chatting to tennis buddy Jed ) directly outside the gate that lead to the open patio doors
The abductor certainly didn't pass by Gerry and Jez to get into the apartment ( to reappear moments later crossing the road with a child in his arms )
If he wasn't already in the apartment when Gerry did his check at 9.10 then Jane Tanner couldn't have seen him leaving with Madeleine five minutes later
The Abductor obviously left by the front door. It has never been suggested that he left by the Patio Doors.
Think about it.
I'm not talking about how he got out of the apartment ... I'm talking about how he got in to it
It had to be by the open patio doors, but Gerry and Jez were standing at the gate directly outside them ... so he couldn't have got in that way without them seeing him
If he was seen a few moments later by Jane Tanner, making off with Madeleine, then he would have to have already been in there when Gerry did his check moments before
But could he not simply have had a key?
There were many keys for each apartment used by workmen, cleaners, owners etc.
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He probably did no such thing. As I recall that is just a feeling that Gerry had, that he may have been in the apartment at the same time as him. Whenever people go through traumatic experiences they have many different ideas as to what happened. I suspect this was just one of those.
In that case, Jane Tanner could not have seen the abductor making off with Madeleine at 915pm, as she claimed
At that exact moment Gerry McCann was standing in the street ( chatting to tennis buddy Jed ) directly outside the gate that lead to the open patio doors
The abductor certainly didn't pass by Gerry and Jez to get into the apartment ( to reappear moments later crossing the road with a child in his arms )
If he wasn't already in the apartment when Gerry did his check at 9.10 then Jane Tanner couldn't have seen him leaving with Madeleine five minutes later
The Abductor obviously left by the front door. It has never been suggested that he left by the Patio Doors.
Think about it.
I'm not talking about how he got out of the apartment ... I'm talking about how he got in to it
It had to be by the open patio doors, but Gerry and Jez were standing at the gate directly outside them ... so he couldn't have got in that way without them seeing him
If he was seen a few moments later by Jane Tanner, making off with Madeleine, then he would have to have already been in there when Gerry did his check moments before
But could he not simply have had a key?
There were many keys for each apartment used by workmen, cleaners, owners etc.
Where did you find that information ? ... about the 'many' keys available to all and sundry, I mean
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We have been told by the McCanns that they think the abductor had been observing them all week, noting their checking regime ... and even that he may have been in the apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
So why would this note - taking abductor have placed himself inside the apartment at the exact time he would expect the children to be checked on ... and then 'hide' ( behind the door is Gerry's prefered place )
That makes no sense at all
It makes perfect sense to me. Why would he not have hidden behind the door? I don't suppose that he wanted to be caught.
Perfect sense ?
Don't you think it would have made more sense to have gone into the apartment just after a check had been made ... rather than just before one was due ?
It might have done, if he knew precisely when that would be. But according to you all, the McCanns were haphazard to say the least. So perhaps he thought he had longer than he actually did have.
You can't have it every which way. And it was possible to hide.
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Look now, when did anyone need a key to get OUT of a house. Do any of you need a key to get OUT of your houses? I have never needed a key to get OUT of any of my houses.
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We have been told by the McCanns that they think the abductor had been observing them all week, noting their checking regime ... and even that he may have been in the apartment the night before Madeleine disappeared
So why would this note - taking abductor have placed himself inside the apartment at the exact time he would expect the children to be checked on ... and then 'hide' ( behind the door is Gerry's prefered place )
That makes no sense at all
It makes perfect sense to me. Why would he not have hidden behind the door? I don't suppose that he wanted to be caught.
Perfect sense ?
Don't you think it would have made more sense to have gone into the apartment just after a check had been made ... rather than just before one was due ?
It might have done, if he knew precisely when that would be. But according to you all, the McCanns were haphazard to say the least. So perhaps he thought he had longer than he actually did have.
You can't have it every which way. And it was possible to hide.
What do you mean 'you all' Eleanor ?
It's my post you are responding to, and I have never mentioned anything about the haphazardness of the McCann's checking regime
The McCanns insist they were being watched by the abductor that week ... and they insist their checking rituals were precise and routine
So why did he choose the worse possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction ?
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My dear Bod [is Bod ok? The rest is too long.]
Have you never stayed in a big complex? Hotels or apartments?
Everyone to do with the place has a master .. or at least has access to a key ... and the handing out of keys to various personnel is very casual at most places.
Now what do you think about this Bod?
1) There had been a series of burglaries at OC where entrance was thru the front door. No break in .. so obviously a key was used ? Mrs Fenns flat, above 5A, was entered this way ... and that was just a few weeks before The McCanns arrived.
2) Holidaymakers, now were they on honeymoon, I forget? Anyway a holidaying couple who were renting 5A just before The Mccanns, were truly upset because the cleaning ladies/maids were just walking into the apartment without warning. Coming in thru a locked front door !
What do you think about that Bod?
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So why did he choose the worse possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction ?
As it turns out, it wasn't the worst possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction was it? Was he caught? Has he been identified? Seems to me he got clean away with it, a wholly successful abduction in other words (unfortunately).
Quite remarkable isn't it ?
There he is, this audacious abductor, choosing to go into an apartment to steal a child away at the exact time he knows the childs father will be there ... hiding in such a confined space with aplomb ... then without care for any disturbance or noise made, he opens the window and shutters, for no real reason at all, because he intends leaving through the front door anyway ... and off he boldly strides with the sleeping child in his arms ( another stroke of luck there, in that she didn't wake up ) ... straight across the road he unhesitatingly marches, within yards of the child's father, his mate and a woman walking directly towards him ... and gets clean away
Remarkable indeed
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My dear Bod [is Bod ok? The rest is too long.]
Have you never stayed in a big complex? Hotels or apartments?
Everyone to do with the place has a master .. or at least has access to a key ... and the handing out of keys to various personnel is very casual at most places.
Now what do you think about this Bod?
1) There had been a series of burglaries at OC where entrance was thru the front door. No break in .. so obviously a key was used ? Mrs Fenns flat, above 5A, was entered this way ... and that was just a few weeks before The McCanns arrived.
2) Holidaymakers, now were they on honeymoon, I forget? Anyway a holidaying couple who were renting 5A just before The Mccanns, were truly upset because the cleaning ladies/maids were just walking into the apartment without warning. Coming in thru a locked front door !
What do you think about that Bod?
I don't mind Bod ... I won't call you Sad though ( that seems a bit unkind )
Whilst cleaners/ chambermaids/maintenance staff use master keys to access rooms in their working hours, they are returned at the end of the working day ... they don't put them in their back pockets and go home with them
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So why did he choose the worse possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction ?
As it turns out, it wasn't the worst possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction was it? Was he caught? Has he been identified? Seems to me he got clean away with it, a wholly successful abduction in other words (unfortunately).
Quite remarkable isn't it ?
There he is, this audacious abductor, choosing to go into an apartment to steal a child away at the exact time he knows the childs father will be there ... hiding in such a confined space with aplomb ... then without care for any disturbance or noise made, he opens the window and shutters, for no real reason at all, because he intends leaving through the front door anyway ... and off he boldly strides with the sleeping child in his arms ( another stroke of luck there, in that she didn't wake up ) ... straight across the road he unhesitatingly marches, within yards of the child's father, his mate and a woman walking directly towards him ... and gets clean away
Remarkable indeed
Well said, Icabod. I couldn't have put it better myself.
PS. Actually, it's Ichabod. But what's an aitch between friends.
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So why did he choose the worse possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction ?
As it turns out, it wasn't the worst possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction was it? Was he caught? Has he been identified? Seems to me he got clean away with it, a wholly successful abduction in other words (unfortunately).
Quite remarkable isn't it ?
There he is, this audacious abductor, choosing to go into an apartment to steal a child away at the exact time he knows the childs father will be there ... hiding in such a confined space with aplomb ... then without care for any disturbance or noise made, he opens the window and shutters, for no real reason at all, because he intends leaving through the front door anyway ... and off he boldly strides with the sleeping child in his arms ( another stroke of luck there, in that she didn't wake up ) ... straight across the road he unhesitatingly marches, within yards of the child's father, his mate and a woman walking directly towards him ... and gets clean away
Remarkable indeed
Well said, Icabod. I couldn't have put it better myself.
PS. Actually, it's Ichabod . But what's an aitch between friends.
I did know
... I was waiting to see who would feel the need to point it out ... and there you are
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So why did he choose the worse possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction ?
As it turns out, it wasn't the worst possible moment to carry out his meticulously planned abduction was it? Was he caught? Has he been identified? Seems to me he got clean away with it, a wholly successful abduction in other words (unfortunately).
Quite remarkable isn't it ?
There he is, this audacious abductor, choosing to go into an apartment to steal a child away at the exact time he knows the childs father will be there ... hiding in such a confined space with aplomb ... then without care for any disturbance or noise made, he opens the window and shutters, for no real reason at all, because he intends leaving through the front door anyway ... and off he boldly strides with the sleeping child in his arms ( another stroke of luck there, in that she didn't wake up ) ... straight across the road he unhesitatingly marches, within yards of the child's father, his mate and a woman walking directly towards him ... and gets clean away
Remarkable indeed
Well said, Icabod. I couldn't have put it better myself.
PS. Actually, it's Ichabod . But what's an aitch between friends.
I did know
... I was waiting to see who would feel the need to point it out ... and there you are
And dead lucky you are to have me. Most people have never heard of him, and know even less about who he was.
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My dear Bod [is Bod ok? The rest is too long.]
Have you never stayed in a big complex? Hotels or apartments?
Everyone to do with the place has a master .. or at least has access to a key ... and the handing out of keys to various personnel is very casual at most places.
Now what do you think about this Bod?
1) There had been a series of burglaries at OC where entrance was thru the front door. No break in .. so obviously a key was used ? Mrs Fenns flat, above 5A, was entered this way ... and that was just a few weeks before The McCanns arrived.
2) Holidaymakers, now were they on honeymoon, I forget? Anyway a holidaying couple who were renting 5A just before The Mccanns, were truly upset because the cleaning ladies/maids were just walking into the apartment without warning. Coming in thru a locked front door !
What do you think about that Bod?
I don't mind Bod ... I won't call you Sad though ( that seems a bit unkind )
Whilst cleaners/ chambermaids/maintenance staff use master keys to access rooms in their working hours, they are returned at the end of the working day ... they don't put them in their back pockets and go home with them
So keys never go missing then? Not in your perfect world? No criminal has ever simply copied a key?
And here we have an apartment block which has only a short time previously suffered a keyed illegal entry but that doesn't register with you does it?
Cleaners, managers, maintenance staff, owners of the apartments, holidaymakers. No chance there of a key being copied or lost or mislaid or deliberately witheld? Nobody would ever forget a key was in their pocket? Simply would never happen in your world would it?
And Mrs Fenn must have just have imagined someone entering her apartment? Could that have been a master key to that block the person who she imagined and reported to the authorities used?
Of course I am just using common sense and a bit of logic about this but don't let that worry you.
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My dear Bod [is Bod ok? The rest is too long.]
Have you never stayed in a big complex? Hotels or apartments?
Everyone to do with the place has a master .. or at least has access to a key ... and the handing out of keys to various personnel is very casual at most places.
Now what do you think about this Bod?
1) There had been a series of burglaries at OC where entrance was thru the front door. No break in .. so obviously a key was used ? Mrs Fenns flat, above 5A, was entered this way ... and that was just a few weeks before The McCanns arrived.
2) Holidaymakers, now were they on honeymoon, I forget? Anyway a holidaying couple who were renting 5A just before The Mccanns, were truly upset because the cleaning ladies/maids were just walking into the apartment without warning. Coming in thru a locked front door !
What do you think about that Bod?
I don't mind Bod ... I won't call you Sad though ( that seems a bit unkind )
Whilst cleaners/ chambermaids/maintenance staff use master keys to access rooms in their working hours, they are returned at the end of the working day ... they don't put them in their back pockets and go home with them
So keys never go missing then? Not in your perfect world? No criminal has ever simply copied a key?
And here we have an apartment block which has only a short time previously suffered a keyed illegal entry but that doesn't register with you does it?
Cleaners, managers, maintenance staff, owners of the apartments, holidaymakers. No chance there of a key being copied or lost or mislaid or deliberately witheld? Nobody would ever forget a key was in their pocket? Simply would never happen in your world would it?
And Mrs Fenn must have just have imagined someone entering her apartment? Could that have been a master key to that block the person who she imagined and reported to the authorities used?
Of course I am just using common sense and a bit of logic about this but don't let that worry you.
Well if we are going down the path of logic and common sense, let's be honest here shall we ?
I have no agenda, I am not an 'anti' ... and I do not post on any of the designated boards which are entrenched in a constant state of warfare/competition
I post honestly and with a genuine desire to debate and learn more about this sad, but compelling case
When I post a thread , therefore, that questions the fact that an abductor ( an abductor who has been clever and cunning enough to leave not a single clue or lead in all these years ) would be stupid enough to put himself in the risky position of having to hide behind a bedroom door ... when the frequent lengthy absenses of the parents meant he didn't have to ... I do so because I genuinely find it hard to believe
Yes, you can come back with all sorts of excuses and explanations ... but if you could set aside your avowed intent to defend the McCann's stated position at every turn, for just a moment ( and apply the logic and common sense you allude to ) wouldn't you honestly agree that the scenario simply doesn't make sense ?
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It doesn't say much for the apartments to have such bad publicity about rooms being entered by would-be burglars. It is certainly true to say that there could very well be a problem there with unauthorised keys floating around.
Another point I want to make after reading what has already been posted is that the alleged abductor had no way of knowing when one of the parents would appear to do the checks. If indeed they were being watched I would assume the best time to attempt an abduction was immediately after one of them had done their check and left to return to the bar.