"Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

[Holly Goodhead]

When AE, along with other family members, visited EP to discuss their concerns re the direction of the investigation/JB according to AE they were told quite forcibly by EP:

"Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3540

What did EP say that made them believe SC was the perpetrator?

[scipio_usmc]

When AE, along with other family members, visited EP to discuss their concerns re the direction of the investigation/JB according to AE they were told quite forcibly by EP:

"Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3540

What did EP say that made them believe SC was the perpetrator?

According to the statement they didn't believe it.  He acted threateneing and the best he could do was get some to say maybe it is possible not that they actually believe it.

[Holly Goodhead]

According to the statement they didn't believe it.  He acted threateneing and the best he could do was get some to say maybe it is possible not that they actually believe it.

You're back!  I've missed you desperately Scipio 

Yes DB and AP reluctantly agreed it might be possible that SC was responsible. 

Perhaps my post is a bit ambiguous but the point I'm driving at is what made EP think SC "could have done it"?  Why did EP say "Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

[John]

An interesting observation Holly, I wonder did Ann ever get an answer?  Taff Jones sounds like he was having a breakdown.  He later had a fatal fall from a ladder at home and broke his neck, could it have been intentional? hmm..

[Holly Goodhead]

An interesting observation Holly, I wonder did Ann ever get an answer?  Taff Jones sounds like he was having a breakdown.  He later had a fatal fall from a ladder at home and broke his neck, could it have been intentional? hmm..

I would like to know what was said by EP prior to them concluding "Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

Yes according to AE DCI Jones got very angry.  Why?  Why not just hear them out and then diplomatically offload them? 

I was surprised to read in the ws DS Jones state "If you accused him and later found out you were wrong.  Imagine how you would feel"?

I understand the coroner's report records DCI Jone's death as "accidental".  Apparently he fell off a step ladder while carrying out some DIY at home.  I believe his wife and children were satisfied with the verdict.  I would imagine suicide by throwing oneself from a step ladder is difficult to achieve.  Mike Teskowski, perhaps not surprisingly, thinks it was foul play.  I believe it was a tragic accident.  Sadly these sorts of accidents do happen:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/27/topstories3.mainsection

[John]

I would like to know what was said by EP prior to them concluding "Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

Yes according to AE DCI Jones got very angry.  Why?  Why not just hear them out and then diplomatically offload them? 

I was surprised to read in the ws DS Jones state "If you accused him and later found out you were wrong.  Imagine how you would feel"?

I understand the coroner's report records DCI Jone's death as "accidental".  Apparently he fell off a step ladder while carrying out some DIY at home.  I believe his wife and children were satisfied with the verdict.  I would imagine suicide by throwing oneself from a step ladder is difficult to achieve.  Mike Teskowski, perhaps not surprisingly, thinks it was foul play.  I believe it was a tragic accident.  Sadly these sorts of accidents do happen:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/27/topstories3.mainsection

Yes, Mike thinks a bunch of his colleagues from EP went along and helped him off the ladder to prevent him putting a big dent in their "Jeremy did it" theory.

[scipio_usmc]

I would like to know what was said by EP prior to them concluding "Now do you believe Sheila could have done it"?

Yes according to AE DCI Jones got very angry.  Why?  Why not just hear them out and then diplomatically offload them? 

I was surprised to read in the ws DS Jones state "If you accused him and later found out you were wrong.  Imagine how you would feel"?

I understand the coroner's report records DCI Jone's death as "accidental".  Apparently he fell off a step ladder while carrying out some DIY at home.  I believe his wife and children were satisfied with the verdict.  I would imagine suicide by throwing oneself from a step ladder is difficult to achieve.  Mike Teskowski, perhaps not surprisingly, thinks it was foul play.  I believe it was a tragic accident.  Sadly these sorts of accidents do happen:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/dec/27/topstories3.mainsection

Why would someone bother to do a project and use that as a cover for suicide?  That owuld be like someone saying you know I want to kill myself so I will wash the windows and and then jump off the ladder.  Why bother with the window washing part at all?

It certainly looks like an accident.

Didn't Jones get replaced as the head of the investigation?  It is not as if people needed to kill him in order to investigate Jeremy.

A lot of the poor early police work was his fault.  He didn't want to entertain the possibility of it being anything other than a suicide which in turn tied the hands of the people under him.  Some responded pretty odd such as how they only did what they were told and didn't search for the suppressor or look at it because that is not what they were told to look for and didn't do other things because they were not told to. 

The interesting question would be did they hate him and just do the bare minimum at their job, were they acting that way because he had them on a tight string or were they just lazy people who cared nothing about their job and trying to do it right.

Reading about Taff Jones and how others helped him stumble across evidence he missed makes me think of Peter Sellers in the Pink Panther movies.  That is the impression I got after reading about him and his accident.

If Jones had not believed she did it but something later changed his mind that would be something poentially significant.  The fact he refused to believe it and tried to convince the family to join his views doesn't mean he found out anything additional necessarily.  He could simply have been trying to convince them using the same information he thought to be the case from the outset. it doesn't necessarily mean he cited anything new and since Ann didn't describe it his argument can't have been too compelling.  If some startling point were disclosed she likely would have described what it was. It sounds like she either doesn't recall his argument or found it too worthless to bother to detail.

[Tim Invictus]

Taff Jones jumped to the conclusion it was a murder/suicide by Sheila because that's how Bamber had set it up and he had fallen for it. After that he didn't want to see the truth; it would have been humiliating for the officer in charge at the murder scene to admit he was wrong!

Remember Stan Jones stayed with Bamber that morning and he sniffed him out almost straight away! Especially when Bamber offered the coppers a fry up within a couple of hours of all his family being murdered. They didn't eat but Bamber tucked into a full English!

I submit no normal person who had supposedly just found out all their immediate family had been murdered would even think about food for days! A piece of toast at most! Then that very day Bamber was off to the family solicitors and bank to start the process of getting his hands on his blood money!

Then it was party, holidays, restaurants and auctioneers until he was arrested on his return from St. Tropez!

The actions of a pure psychopath who really believed he was too smart to be caught!

[Holly Goodhead]

Why would someone bother to do a project and use that as a cover for suicide?  That owuld be like someone saying you know I want to kill myself so I will wash the windows and and then jump off the ladder.  Why bother with the window washing part at all?

It certainly looks like an accident.

Didn't Jones get replaced as the head of the investigation?  It is not as if people needed to kill him in order to investigate Jeremy.

A lot of the poor early police work was his fault.  He didn't want to entertain the possibility of it being anything other than a suicide which in turn tied the hands of the people under him.  Some responded pretty odd such as how they only did what they were told and didn't search for the suppressor or look at it because that is not what they were told to look for and didn't do other things because they were not told to. 

The interesting question would be did they hate him and just do the bare minimum at their job, were they acting that way because he had them on a tight string or were they just lazy people who cared nothing about their job and trying to do it right.

Reading about Taff Jones and how others helped him stumble across evidence he missed makes me think of Peter Sellers in the Pink Panther movies.  That is the impression I got after reading about him and his accident.

If Jones had not believed she did it but something later changed his mind that would be something poentially significant.  The fact he refused to believe it and tried to convince the family to join his views doesn't mean he found out anything additional necessarily.  He could simply have been trying to convince them using the same information he thought to be the case from the outset. it doesn't necessarily mean he cited anything new and since Ann didn't describe it his argument can't have been too compelling.  If some startling point were disclosed she likely would have described what it was. It sounds like she either doesn't recall his argument or found it too worthless to bother to detail.

Scipio I am impressed by your level of energy: full shift on Blue then part-time here 

We seem to be moving away from the OP. 

Again an interesting observation in that if AE 'forgets' it is seen as legitimate.  If Jeremy 'forgets' in his police interviews it is seen as indicative of guilt  8-)(--)

AE states after she was pulled up by DCI Jones she "sat and listened".  Then in a roundabout way says she can't remember what was actually said that led to DCI Jones saying "Now do you believe Sheila could have done it".   8-)(--). Surely you would be all ears at this point?  If what DCI Jones said was benign then she would surely recall something that to her mind would support her case in that she could dismiss it?  I can only imagine it might have been something compelling.  She said she wanted answers as to why DCI Jones acted angrily.  Should DCI Jones have been getting angry with the grieving relatives?   >@@(*&)None of it makes sense  8-)(--)

[Holly Goodhead]

Taff Jones jumped to the conclusion it was a murder/suicide by Sheila because that's how Bamber had set it up and he had fallen for it. After that he didn't want to see the truth; it would have been humiliating for the officer in charge at the murder scene to admit he was wrong!

Remember Stan Jones stayed with Bamber that morning and he sniffed him out almost straight away! Especially when Bamber offered the coppers a fry up within a couple of hours of all his family being murdered. They didn't eat but Bamber tucked into a full English!

I submit no normal person who had supposedly just found out all their immediate family had been murdered would even think about food for days! A piece of toast at most! Then that very day Bamber was off to the family solicitors and bank to start the process of getting his hands on his blood money!

Then it was party, holidays, restaurants and auctioneers until he was arrested on his return from St. Tropez!

The actions of a pure psychopath who really believed he was too smart to be caught!

Oh Tim you're such a cynic! 

Surely if JB was responsible he would keep a low profile and really lay it on thick as the grieving relative? 

JB has been assessed my numerous psychologists regularly during his long incarceration and none have found any evidence of psychopathy.

[Tim Invictus]

Oh Tim you're such a cynic! 

Surely if JB was responsible he would keep a low profile and really lay it on thick as the grieving relative? 

JB has been assessed my numerous psychologists regularly during his long incarceration and none have found any evidence of psychopathy.

JB did lay it on thick when he had to at the funeral; a picture of grief in his white face powder and died black hair! He even stole the VCR from WHF so he could record his performance on more than one channel when he was on the news.

He must have been busy in those; do I watch myself hamming it up on the news or read the Porsche brochures or plan my trips to Amsterdam and St. Tropez or get all the WHF antiques to auction as soon as possible or clear out Sheila's flat or sell private porn photos of Sheila to The Sun!

"i should have been an actor".

Come on Holly Greathead! Bamber had been told by the police his stage management had worked; he was having a ball living the life he believed he was entitled to!

When he was interviewed by police he flossed his teeth with threads from his aran sweater and treated the questioning with complete contempt. In court he was quite meek and mild (for the jury) but couldn't resist the line "well that's for you to prove" when accused by the prosecutor!

Holly imo you are deliberately swimming against the tide! Surely you can see the type of individual Bamber was by the fact he tried to sell those private porn photos he found whilst rifling (!) through Sheila's belongings. He had also set up deals with NOTW for when he was acquitted. Anything for fame and money!

The narcissistic psychopath who burgled his own family's business, grew and dealt in drugs and thought he was born to be a playboy actor is undoubtably one of the coldest bloodied murderers in history!

As Dr. Ferguson said, Sheila would never have hurt her beloved twins or her adored father!

[scipio_usmc]

JB did lay it on thick when he had to at the funeral; a picture of grief in his white face powder and died black hair! He even stole the VCR from WHF so he could record his performance on more than one channel when he was on the news.

He must have been busy in those; do I watch myself hamming it up on the news or read the Porsche brochures or plan my trips to Amsterdam and St. Tropez or get all the WHF antiques to auction as soon as possible or clear out Sheila's flat or sell private porn photos of Sheila to The Sun!

"i should have been an actor".

Come on Holly Greathead! Bamber had been told by the police his stage management had worked; he was having a ball living the life he believed he was entitled to!

When he was interviewed by police he flossed his teeth with threads from his aran sweater and treated the questioning with complete contempt. In court he was quite meek and mild (for the jury) but couldn't resist the line "well that's for you to prove" when accused by the prosecutor!

Holly imo you are deliberately swimming against the tide! Surely you can see the type of individual Bamber was by the fact he tried to sell those private porn photos he found whilst rifling (!) through Sheila's belongings. He had also set up deals with NOTW for when he was acquitted. Anything for fame and money!

The narcissistic psychopath who burgled his own family's business, grew and dealt in drugs and thought he was born to be a playboy actor is undoubtably one of the coldest bloodied murderers in history!

As Dr. Ferguson said, Sheila would never have hurt her beloved twins or her adored father!

People handle grief in different ways and how close they truly are detemrines such.  Jeremy didn't like his fmaily that much which explains why he would not be so grief stricken.

The thing that was more suspicious is how he didn't ask quesitons people would ask about what transpirsed which suggested he alreayd knew that is why he didn't ask and Julie confirmed that suspicion.  He was busy telling her things about how it went down only claiming the hitman gave him the details.

Not caring about them too much explains why he would not be grief stricken but also why it is conceivable he could have done it.  You need more evidence than that though and there was sufficient evidence that turned up.

His actions before the family was found are some of the most suspicious of all though.  His lack of concern for the victims should made police suspicious right away. He was lucky he got Inspector Clouseau in charge of the investigation. 



 

[Holly Goodhead]

JB did lay it on thick when he had to at the funeral; a picture of grief in his white face powder and died black hair! He even stole the VCR from WHF so he could record his performance on more than one channel when he was on the news.

He must have been busy in those; do I watch myself hamming it up on the news or read the Porsche brochures or plan my trips to Amsterdam and St. Tropez or get all the WHF antiques to auction as soon as possible or clear out Sheila's flat or sell private porn photos of Sheila to The Sun!

"i should have been an actor".

Come on Holly Greathead! Bamber had been told by the police his stage management had worked; he was having a ball living the life he believed he was entitled to!

When he was interviewed by police he flossed his teeth with threads from his aran sweater and treated the questioning with complete contempt. In court he was quite meek and mild (for the jury) but couldn't resist the line "well that's for you to prove" when accused by the prosecutor!

Holly imo you are deliberately swimming against the tide! Surely you can see the type of individual Bamber was by the fact he tried to sell those private porn photos he found whilst rifling (!) through Sheila's belongings. He had also set up deals with NOTW for when he was acquitted. Anything for fame and money!

The narcissistic psychopath who burgled his own family's business, grew and dealt in drugs and thought he was born to be a playboy actor is undoubtably one of the coldest bloodied murderers in history!

As Dr. Ferguson said, Sheila would never have hurt her beloved twins or her adored father!

Apart from the OCP break-in JB seems to have been of previously good character.  Based on my own independent research I am unable to reconcile JB as anything other than an ordinary mainstream guy, with good and not so good points, and certainly not capable of the crimes he has been convicted of. Of course I might be way off the mark but as it stands I feel confident I have arrived at the right decision. 

School/College

No evidence of anti-social disruptive behaviour or of NB and June ever being taken to one side to discuss JB.  EP interviewed the then headmaster of Greshams, Logie Bruce Lockhart.   

Employment

No evidence of any conduct issues at Little Chef or Sloppy Joes eg persistent lateness, absenteeism, unable to work with customers, colleagues and management or dishonesty (access to tills as waiter).  In fact the owners of Sloppy Joes thought so highly of him they had him living in. Checked out by EP

The family paint an unfair picture of OCP meetings and accidentally tipping spuds in a ditch, spraying a neighbouring field with weed killer.

Social Life

JB was a regular round the local nightspots: Frog and Bean wine bar, Caribbean Cottage and local pub The Chequers.  No proprietor/patron came forward re anti-social/conduct problems.

Previous girlfriends (other than JM)

He dated the Greaves sisters and Suzette Ford plus I think a couple of flings.  None of them came forward to say he was abusive, violent or sexually weird.  In fact Suzette Ford was  a defence witness and supported him throughout his trial

Neighbours

None of the neighbours came forward to complain about unreasonable behaviour eg noise, parties, rubbish strewn all over garden etc.

Prison

Apart from the poo smearing (which if he's an MoJ is understandable wonder he hasn't lost his marbles) I am not aware of any conduct issues.  His behaviour could be described as a model prisoner.

[Tim Invictus]

You forget the marijuana growing at WHF and drug dealing. At one stage he was setting up a postal 'weed' selling operation! He also got Julie to sell his 'gear' at her college. Don't forget the 4 star trip to Amsterdam to bring drugs back in toothpaste tubes.

Does your research tell you why Bamber had to be bailed out in NZ by his parents as a matter of urgency? There are suggestions he was involved in a burglary involving theft of watches!

What Jeremy and Brett did with those photos of Sheila is beyond contemptible and is proof positive to me just what an utter c**t Bamber was/is!

I have only heard one report of Bamber at school; he was known as a 'Gladys' like pompous tw.. who no one liked.

Another small but telling thing Bamber did that I found disgusting is to give Neville's car to Brett Collins to use! Gay Brett spinning around Goldhanger in Neville's car is utterly insensitive!

Does anyone know anything that Bamber ever did that was decent or respectable?

[Holly Goodhead]

I find a lot of this stuff in the public domain unreliable eg JB supposedly involved in a burglary in New Zealand but where's the evidence? 

Where's the evidence re the photos of SC?  We don't even know if they were glamour or porn.  I can't rely on a journo from The Sun.

I don't think it was insensitive of JB to lend BC NB's car. What I find insensitive is AE taking her young daughter to WHF to remake the twins' beds with clean sheets.  Now that sends a shiver down my spine.  This is confirmed in her wit stat.

I've never been into drugs myself, aside a few spliffs many years ago, but lots of young people dabble.   He was not Mr Big of the drug world managing some grand industrial scale operation.  SB's wit stat states her and JM went to the bank to obtain plastic money bags to package the cannabis in for distributing around campus.  JM was a willing partner.  Yes he bought some cannabis back from Amsterdam probably better quality/different novelty factor.  I like to visit Bruges for Trappist beer.  Is it any different?  Well I guess it is on the legal front  8-)(--)

June had Roland Pargeter stay at WHF to help him off drugs (AE wit stat).

SC's friend called her up in a panic thinking childrens' party bags given to the twins might have got messed up with her  husband's heroin!  (Claire Powell's book).

According to his ex girlfriend, Suzette Ford, he was kind and thoughtful.  Especially so with her children.  (SF's wit stat).

He must have added value to the Sloppy Joes eatery or why would the owners Michael Deckers and Malcolm Waters have him living in? 

I understand he helps inmates with reading and writing. 

At trial Basil Cock read out a letter from June to be read in the event of her death.  In it she thanked JB for all that he had given her.  Why would she do this if he was nothing but trouble? 

 I don't share your fondness of pets and you don't share my views on JB but we do have our shared love of skiing and hiking and irritation over Gladys 

I just don't believe all the info in the public domain.