Author Topic: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee  (Read 74581 times)

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Offline Myster

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2015, 09:02:57 PM »
I had written the burn marks off as totally irrelevant.  Mainly based on Dr V not mentioning them when asked by the police and defence about injuries NB sustained other than gunshot wounds.  Well I guess he may have mentioned them but the info is certainly not on Blue or Red.  CAL met with Dr V and he discusses his thoughts on the burns at length.  Although he is unable to say with any certainty what caused them. 

JB's recent defence argued that the burn marks were caused by the end of the rifle and not the silencer. 

Myster and others have suggested a hot bullet exiting, ricocheting and catching NB.  If this was the case I am surprised other victims didn't suffer similar burn marks &%+((£

If either JB or SC deliberately pushed the hot rifle/silencer into NB's back why?  It has been suggested to check for life.  Surely it was obvious?  Again why NB and not other victims?  Other suggestions have included branding, something to do with the devil.  Again why NB and not other victims?

No earth shattering revelations. But lots of new bits of information eg AP confirms that JM asked him twice, post tragedy, about renting a villa in Ibiza.  She also asked JB to bring June's bike to London for her to use around college.

The book just deals with the facts as they have been reported via WS's, interviews with CAL etc, etc.  The author doesn't give anything away about her own personal views.  If I had to hazard a guess I would say she's inclined to see JB as guilty.  It will be interesting to see readers' conclusions who have no fixed ideas and know little, or nothing, about the case!

Not a bullet, just a red-hot brass shell casing thrown from the rifle's ejection port on the right-hand side, when the last four shots were fired at Nevill's head.

Stan Jones mentioned that the burns might have been the result of prodding Nevill's back with the rifle if/when he was forced downstairs. The question remains whether it was hot enough though.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2015, 09:15:06 PM »
Not a bullet, just a red-hot brass shell casing thrown from the rifle's ejection port on the right-hand side, when the last four shots were fired at Nevill's head.

Stan Jones mentioned that the burns might have been the result of prodding Nevill's back with the rifle if/when he was forced downstairs. The question remains whether it was hot enough though.

What is the temperature of the casings when ejected?  Would a single casing be capable of causing the three marks?  Surely some applied pressure would be required to cause a burn?

If JB then surely the silencer was in use and that would be capable of generating sufficient heat to cause the burns?  I thought JB needed to keep NB away from the kitchen phone?  Why would he want to force NB downstairs?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline puglove

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2015, 09:42:22 PM »
As I said before, the move's suspicious and definitely something to do with the 30th anniversary. For his own protection, just in case an inmate spies an opportunity to attack him as a result of seeing the contents of the two books as well, maybe?

I bet quite a few in Full Sutton and Wakefield are going to have a thorough read, even they're not available in the prison libraries. Paul Harrison's is damning of Bamber, but his conclusion that Sheila was also involved and somehow manipulated like a puppet isn't convincing at all, imo... of which more later. Although Carol Ann Lee is somewhat cagey committing herself in the Yorkshire Post, I'm sure she's certain of the truth too.

Wakefield is the final move for Bamber, because of his age and status. He'd better get used to it, because he's been well and truly dumped.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Myster

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2015, 10:50:42 PM »
What is the temperature of the casings when ejected?  Would a single casing be capable of causing the three marks?  Surely some applied pressure would be required to cause a burn?

If JB then surely the silencer was in use and that would be capable of generating sufficient heat to cause the burns?  I thought JB needed to keep NB away from the kitchen phone?  Why would he want to force NB downstairs?

Obviously red hot, because they contain(ed) burning gunpowder. The three marks are different sizes, reducing as they move down the nape, so maybe the biggest could have been where the shell first landed, with the weight of pyjama top sufficent to hold shell in position for a second or two before it rolled on to create the remaining two marks. It's only a theory so may be totally wrong anyway.

Hot shell casings being ejected... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

The moderator is 22mm diameter, the largest burn mark is around 10 to 12mm diameter and circular. So not a good fit

To make it look as if Nevill had used the Kitchen phone to call his son, and so provide Bamber with a reason to call the police from his cottage.

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline puglove

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2015, 10:58:21 PM »
We've always had closure, Myster. With all respect to Holly, the tiny band of Bamber supporters have been so crazy, fixated and outlandish, they've demolished any tiny shred of credibility Bamber hoped to find while he dredged through his piles of paper.

This is an open invitation to anyone who has supported and believed in Bamber during the last 30 years. I promise not to react to your posts (unless invited) and you can tell an interested and intelligent group your evidential reasons for your support.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #200 on: July 27, 2015, 12:07:26 AM »
Obviously red hot, because they contain(ed) burning gunpowder. The three marks are different sizes, reducing as they move down the nape, so maybe the biggest could have been where the shell first landed, with the weight of pyjama top sufficent to hold shell in position for a second or two before it rolled on to create the remaining two marks. It's only a theory so may be totally wrong anyway.

Hot shell casings being ejected... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

The moderator is 22mm diameter, the largest burn mark is around 10 to 12mm diameter and circular. So not a good fit

To make it look as if Nevill had used the Kitchen phone to call his son, and so provide Bamber with a reason to call the police from his cottage.



For some reason I had it in my mind the burn marks were horizontal as opposed to vertical.  Now I realise I was wrong I see where you are coming from Myster.  It sounds like a hot casing could provide the answer:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/getting-burned-hot-ejected-auto-shell-casings-397601.html

I wonder why Dr V didn't put this forward as an explanation?  He must have witnessed other cases?  It doesn't appear Philip Boyce put it forward either? 

Surely best for JB to keep NB upstairs and stage the bedroom phone? 

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #201 on: July 27, 2015, 10:19:14 AM »
A hot case causing the burns could also provide the answer re the missing case itself.  Dr V seems quite sure that NB sustained the 4 gunshot wounds to his head whilst in the kitchen but only 3 cases were found.  If one case found itself down NB's PJ top this might account for that?  This would then mean an additional case upstairs not attributable to any gunshot wound.



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline puglove

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #202 on: July 27, 2015, 07:04:59 PM »
Awww Sika give the girl a break.  Its excellent.  CAL's research and attention to detail is outstanding.  She must have worked so hard to put this together and is clearly very talented.  I'm at page 163 and now moving to 7th Aug and post murders.  What I'm really enjoying is that everything is presented neutrally.  As I move onto SoC etc that may change.

It's definitely, by far, the best book I've read with regard to background.  Whether CAL can trump Wilkes on aspects like the blood evidence and silencer remains to be seen - I will report back!

So far well done CAL  8((()*/ 8@??)(

Mine came this afternoon..... first impressions - it certainly is very good.
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Myster

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #203 on: July 27, 2015, 09:13:59 PM »
For some reason I had it in my mind the burn marks were horizontal as opposed to vertical.  Now I realise I was wrong I see where you are coming from Myster.  It sounds like a hot casing could provide the answer:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/endurance-training/getting-burned-hot-ejected-auto-shell-casings-397601.html

I wonder why Dr V didn't put this forward as an explanation?  He must have witnessed other cases?  It doesn't appear Philip Boyce put it forward either? 

Surely best for JB to keep NB upstairs and stage the bedroom phone?

They might be horizontal. I thought they were vertical because they appeared that way up when first seen in the New Evidence documentary and on the net.

Getting burned by a flying shell casing is more common than I thought.

Possibly it was considered but rejected. The largest burn mark was about 10 to 15mm diameter and circular, whereas the rim diameter of an Eley shell casing is around 7 to 8mm. So a difference to be noted there. As I understand it, three shells were found in the kitchen when there should have been four - two on the floor and one marked DRH 19 on the table. The lost shell might account for the burns... but then again maybe not.

Nevill might have pushed his son out of the way to escape downstairs to the kitchen, and so scuppered any plan for JB to stage the bedroom phone.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 09:38:15 PM by Myster »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 03:41:59 PM by John »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #206 on: July 28, 2015, 12:03:58 PM »
FAO ANNA:

Thanks Holly,

I cant quite get to grips with the JB story, so if you think it is worth it, I will buy the book. I think there is more than one though.

Hi Anna re your post above.  6 authors have written exclusively about WHF:

Colin Caffell
Scott Lomax
Claire Powell
Roger Wilkes

With two newcomers: Paul Harrison and Carol Ann Lee both published this month.

Those listed above were written in the late 80's/early 90's with the exception of Lomax who wrote his book in the noughties.  Each had something to offer until recently.  I now feel CP's book has  been superseded by CAL's.  CP gave some insight into SC's life in London with interviews by friends, meeting her birth mother but this has now been covered off by CAL.  Other aspects of CP's book were not so good.  CC's book gives a first-hand account of the family dynamics in the Bamber family.  Lomax is good for the beginner; it sets out the prosecution case in easy to understand chapters for each aspect of the case.  Wilkes provides an excellent highly technical explanation of the silencer and blood evidence with diagrams to aid the readers understanding and in this regard his book trumps others incl CAL's.  All just my opinion of course!   

CAL's starts from the beginning and provides a lot of very interesting background info re family members going back 2/3 generations.  She attempts to provide accurate portrayals of the characters and their relationship with each other.  She also builds in the social history of the time and how this shaped the various individuals.  She then covers off all aspects of the case:  soc, police investigation, trial etc.  It is all properly researched and referenced.  I guess for me this was somewhat boring as it is a repeat of what I have read numerous times not only in  the other books but witness statements and court documents etc.  For those who are new to the case I am sure they will find it riveting and imo it is an accurate account of events and CAL can be relied upon in terms of honesty.  Also she doesn't show any author bias.

I am probably not the best person to ask about PH's book as I simply do not like the man and would not trust him as far as I could throw him.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact we don't share the same views about JB.  I really don't care how others view JB.  PH launched on the so-called Blue forum bigging himself up as an author of 30 odd published books, involved with tv etc, etc, ex police and high court judges clerk.  He said he was writing a book about WHF and wanted to join in debate.  He never joined in debate using his username Mason Doyle and when others, such as Andrea, asked reasonable questions about titles of his previous book he became defensive bordering on rude.  This was a red flag for me.  Another poster, Reader, pulled him up about his use of the words "deliberate lies" pointing out that all lies are by definition deliberate!  He makes repeated reference to "deliberate lies" in his book so much so even DI Miller who he claims to have interviewed also uses the term "deliberate lies"  8(0(*  Another poster, Neil, (not NGB) said he wouldn't want to be  PH's proof reader!  He was then banned from the Blue forum having already been banned from this forum.  He then claimed he received an anonymous letter sent to his home address containing a death threat due to the fact he was writing a book about JB that was going to be unsupportive of JB's claim he's the victim of a MoJ.  Instead of reporting the matter to the police, as surely most would do, he went to the editor of a tabloid.  Imo there was no death threat or anonymous letter it was simply an attempt to gain some publicity for his book.

The book itself is appalling and the contrast with CAL's could not be greater.  He rants all the way through using derogatory terms about JB and anyone who believes he might be the victim of a MoJ.  It contains a lot of irrelevant waffle eg about how the Krays asked PH to pen their biography...yeah right...It is fatally flawed in that PH contradicts himself throughout the book eg several times he makes ref to the police investigation and exhibits all being of an acceptable standard, no wrongdoing etc.  Then he contradicts himself by saying the police were incompetent and exhibits did not meet the criteria for acceptance into a court of law.  There are many factual errors eg re JB's schooling and qualifications.  This example is not really important in the grand scheme of things but it shows that much of the book is very poorly researched.  Of the few that he claims contributed all are either deceased or wished to remain anonymous or no one has ever heard of.  My guess is in reality no one contributed.  Whether he asked  and they declined or he didn't even bother asking  I wouldn't like to say.  Then to cap it all we have yet another anonymous letter sent to his home address.  In this letter he claims an ex con wrote to him telling him JB confessed to being involved in the murders but his sister, SC, was his accomplice.  This is clearly a complete work of fiction.   

Another book penned by PH is a sort of auto-biography and this imo is another complete work of fiction.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 01:01:59 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Anna

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #207 on: July 28, 2015, 02:05:52 PM »
FAO ANNA:

Thanks Holly,

I cant quite get to grips with the JB story, so if you think it is worth it, I will buy the book. I think there is more than one though.

Hi Anna re your post above.  6 authors have written exclusively about WHF:

Colin Caffell
Scott Lomax
Claire Powell
Roger Wilkes

With two newcomers: Paul Harrison and Carol Ann Lee both published this month.

Those listed above were written in the late 80's/early 90's with the exception of Lomax who wrote his book in the noughties.  Each had something to offer until recently.  I now feel CP's book has  been superseded by CAL's.  CP gave some insight into SC's life in London with interviews by friends, meeting her birth mother but this has now been covered off by CAL.  Other aspects of CP's book were not so good.  CC's book gives a first-hand account of the family dynamics in the Bamber family.  Lomax is good for the beginner; it sets out the prosecution case in easy to understand chapters for each aspect of the case.  Wilkes provides an excellent highly technical explanation of the silencer and blood evidence with diagrams to aid the readers understanding and in this regard his book trumps others incl CAL's.  All just my opinion of course!   

CAL's starts from the beginning and provides a lot of very interesting background info re family members going back 2/3 generations.  She attempts to provide accurate portrayals of the characters and their relationship with each other.  She also builds in the social history of the time and how this shaped the various individuals.  She then covers off all aspects of the case:  soc, police investigation, trial etc.  It is all properly researched and referenced.  I guess for me this was somewhat boring as it is a repeat of what I have read numerous times not only in  the other books but witness statements and court documents etc.  For those who are new to the case I am sure they will find it riveting and imo it is an accurate account of events and CAL can be relied upon in terms of honesty.  Also she doesn't show any author bias.

I am probably not the best person to ask about PH's book as I simply do not like the man and would not trust him as far as I could throw him.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact we don't share the same views about JB.  I really don't care how others view JB.  PH launched on the so-called Blue forum bigging himself up as an author of 30 odd published books, involved with tv etc, etc, ex police and high court judges clerk.  He said he was writing a book about WHF and wanted to join in debate.  He never joined in debate using his username Mason Doyle and when others, such as Andrea, asked reasonable questions about titles of his previous book he became defensive bordering on rude.  This was a red flag for me.  Another poster, Reader, pulled him up about his use of the words "deliberate lies" pointing out that all lies are by definition deliberate!  He makes repeated reference to "deliberate lies" in his book so much so even DI Miller who he claims to have interviewed also uses the term "deliberate lies"  8(0(*  Another poster, Neil, (not NGB) said he wouldn't want to be  PH's proof reader!  He was then banned from the Blue forum having already been banned from this forum.  He then claimed he received an anonymous letter sent to his home address containing a death threat due to the fact he was writing a book about JB that was going to be unsupportive of JB's claim he's the victim of a MoJ.  Instead of reporting the matter to the police, as surely most would do, he went to the editor of a tabloid.  Imo there was no death threat or anonymous letter it was simply an attempt to gain some publicity for his book.

The book itself is appalling and the contrast with CAL's could not be greater.  He rants all the way through using derogatory terms about JB and anyone who believes he might be the victim of a MoJ.  It contains a lot of irrelevant waffle eg about how the Krays asked PH to pen their biography...yeah right...It is fatally flawed in that PH contradicts himself throughout the book eg several times he makes ref to the police investigation and exhibits all being of an acceptable standard, no wrongdoing etc.  Then he contradicts himself by saying the police were incompetent and exhibits did not meet the criteria for acceptance into a court of law.  There are many factual errors eg re JB's schooling and qualifications.  This example is not really important in the grand scheme of things but it shows that much of the book is very poorly researched.  Of the few that he claims contributed all are either deceased or wished to remain anonymous or no one has ever heard of.  My guess is in reality no one contributed.  Whether he asked  and they declined or he didn't even bother asking  I wouldn't like to say.  Then to cap it all we have yet another anonymous letter sent to his home address.  In this letter he claims an ex con wrote to him telling him JB confessed to being involved in the murders but his sister, SC, was his accomplice.  This is clearly a complete work of fiction.   

Another book penned by PH is a sort of auto-biography and this imo is another complete work of fiction.

Thank you, Holly, My goodness, that was a long and very informative post. I am very grateful to you. I will buy the new book first by Carol Ann Lee and work backwards. I intend to spend a bit more time trying to study this case.
It seems that there is a lot of doubt as to JB's guilt. His sister seems a very unstable and clever person, but nobody who was entirely sane would kill their own babies, surely?
 I will see if the new book by Carol ann Lee, is of any help before I say any more.
  Thanks again for your help.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:11:16 PM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Angelo222

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #208 on: July 28, 2015, 03:23:11 PM »
Thank you, Holly, My goodness, that was a long and very informative post. I am very grateful to you. I will buy the new book first by Carol Ann Lee and work backwards. I intend to spend a bit more time trying to study this case.
It seems that there is a lot of doubt as to JB's guilt. His sister seems a very unstable and clever person, but nobody who was entirely sane would kill their own babies, surely?
 I will see if the new book by Carol ann Lee, is of any help before I say any more.
  Thanks again for your help.

There is no doubt as to Jeremy Bambers guilt and both books convey this message in their own way.  JB has a very small but determined group of followers some of whom would like to benefit from his release.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: The Murders At White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee
« Reply #209 on: July 28, 2015, 03:32:11 PM »
Thank you, Holly, My goodness, that was a long and very informative post. I am very grateful to you. I will buy the new book first by Carol Ann Lee and work backwards. I intend to spend a bit more time trying to study this case.
It seems that there is a lot of doubt as to JB's guilt. His sister seems a very unstable and clever person, but nobody who was entirely sane would kill their own babies, surely?
 I will see if the new book by Carol ann Lee, is of any help before I say any more.
  Thanks again for your help.

You're welcome Anna  8((()*/

I look forward to hearing your comments following on from any relevant books you might read.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?