UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on August 16, 2019, 08:36:43 AM
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The above was brought up in a post on another thread so I thought I would nip it in the bud and start a new thread.
Regardless of what anyone believes has happened to MM the case has highly unusual features for PJ. Despite this it seems to me they were far more organised than the British police have been in investigating homegrown cases with unusual features.
I read a comment somewhere that said the Portuguese authorities perceived the early interference of the British authorities as akin to a former colonial power wanting to take over!
As I've said previously if my theory is correct it is absolutely damning for the UK police and this is the reason I am keen to pass all the info sent to Op Grange to head of PJ.
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The above was brought up in a post on another thread so I thought I would nip it in the bud and start a new thread.
Regardless of what anyone believes has happened to MM the case has highly unusual features for PJ. Despite this it seems to me they were far more organised than the British police have been in investigating homegrown cases with unusual features.
I read a comment somewhere that said the Portuguese authorities perceived the early interference of the British authorities as akin to a former colonial power wanting to take over!
As I've said previously if my theory is correct it is absolutely damning for the UK police and this is the reason I am keen to pass all the info sent to Op Grange to head of PJ.
I think its absolutely right to criticise teh PJ initial investigation on the basis they completelt misunderstood the evidence in making the mccanns arguidos. This was evidenced in teh archiving report which stated none of the evidence used to make the mccanns arguido was confirmed. I dont see anything damning re the UK police taht can be substantiated
by misunderstanding the evidence the emphasis of the investigation was taken in teh wrong direction
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There is a interesting piece in the interview with Rowley where Brunt the interviewee tried to criticise the PJ,Rowley pointed out the PJ collected the mobile phone intel on which Redwood acted upon in going after the 3 amigo's.
An interviewee some time ago in an interview with Hogan Howe tried to criticise,Howe wouldn't have it.
OG at a not inconsiderable cost translated the files,their help in trying to find out what happened is based on them.
The criticism's will no doubt come from those who haven't a clue on policing methods but are strong on key board semantics.
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I think its absolutely right to criticise teh PJ initial investigation on the basis they completelt misunderstood the evidence in making the mccanns arguidos. This was evidenced in teh archiving report which stated none of the evidence used to make the mccanns arguido was confirmed. I dont see anything damning re the UK police taht can be substantiated
by misunderstanding the evidence the emphasis of the investigation was taken in teh wrong direction
Were the McCanns made aguidos solely on the 'evidence'. Robert Murat and other have since been made aguidos without such evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguido
If a person becomes an arguido, they automatically gain certain rights that a witness or suspect would not have.[7] An arguido has the right to be accompanied by a lawyer when questioned.[5] The investigating police may ask the arguido more direct accusatory questions (the answers to which would not be admissible in court if possibly self-incriminatory and asked of a non-arguido) but the arguido must be presented with whatever evidence is held against them,[7] and unlike a witness has the right to remain silent,[8] not to answer any question that may incriminate the person, and does not face legal action for lying.[9]
Witnesses in criminal investigations are legally bound to co-operate with the police and do not have the right to silence and face legal actions if they lie.[7][9] Because of the legal advantages, some individuals apply for arguido status to be given to themselves, e.g. when it would appear that the police suspect them but are trying to use their witness status to extract as much information as possible.[7]
A person who has arguido status has not been formally accused of a crime, arrested or charged,[10] and not all arguidos are subsequently charged.[1] The police may ask a court to restrict an arguido's movement and oblige them to not leave the country.[1] Arguidos cannot change their place of residence, without permission from a court.[10] There is no time limit on the status.[11]
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There is a interesting piece in the interview with Rowley where Brunt the interviewee tried to criticise the PJ,Rowley pointed out the PJ collected the mobile phone intel on which Redwood acted upon in going after the 3 amigo's.
An interviewee some time ago in an interview with Hogan Howe tried to criticise,Howe wouldn't have it.
OG at a not inconsiderable cost translated the files,their help in trying to find out what happened is based on them.
The criticism's will no doubt come from those who haven't a clue on policing methods but are strong on key board semantics.
According to KM's book the 'find Madeleine' fund covered the cost of translating the files to the tune of some 100k.
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The above was brought up in a post on another thread so I thought I would nip it in the bud and start a new thread.
Regardless of what anyone believes has happened to MM the case has highly unusual features for PJ. Despite this it seems to me they were far more organised than the British police have been in investigating homegrown cases with unusual features.
I read a comment somewhere that said the Portuguese authorities perceived the early interference of the British authorities as akin to a former colonial power wanting to take over!
As I've said previously if my theory is correct it is absolutely damning for the UK police and this is the reason I am keen to pass all the info sent to Op Grange to head of PJ.
Scotland Yard ought to be brought into the equation as well,unless its thought they've covered themselves in glory,with one poster less than impressed with Redwood recently.
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Were the McCanns made aguidos solely on the 'evidence'. Robert Murat and other have since been made aguidos without such evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguido
If a person becomes an arguido, they automatically gain certain rights that a witness or suspect would not have.[7] An arguido has the right to be accompanied by a lawyer when questioned.[5] The investigating police may ask the arguido more direct accusatory questions (the answers to which would not be admissible in court if possibly self-incriminatory and asked of a non-arguido) but the arguido must be presented with whatever evidence is held against them,[7] and unlike a witness has the right to remain silent,[8] not to answer any question that may incriminate the person, and does not face legal action for lying.[9]
Witnesses in criminal investigations are legally bound to co-operate with the police and do not have the right to silence and face legal actions if they lie.[7][9] Because of the legal advantages, some individuals apply for arguido status to be given to themselves, e.g. when it would appear that the police suspect them but are trying to use their witness status to extract as much information as possible.[7]
A person who has arguido status has not been formally accused of a crime, arrested or charged,[10] and not all arguidos are subsequently charged.[1] The police may ask a court to restrict an arguido's movement and oblige them to not leave the country.[1] Arguidos cannot change their place of residence, without permission from a court.[10] There is no time limit on the status.[11]
It actually staes in the archiving report that none of the evidence used to make the mccanns arguidos was confirmed. Its clear from the files taht the pJ did not listen to the advice of the uK police re the evidence.
I have provided an article from the guardian taht has Almeida stating that the main evidence against the mccanns was......am i allowed to say.....when they had been told taht this"evidence" had no evidential value.
we were also told in the Netflix Doc that when the PJ received the report from teh FSS...they only read the first paragraph..re 15 markers., and failed to raed or understand the rest of the report. That is pretty damning to me
To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.
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According to KM's book the 'find Madeleine' fund covered the cost of translating the files to the tune of some 100k.
A question was asked of Hogan Howe ,What do 30 officers do all day,he responded on the files being translated and about 40,000 documents having to be sifted through,didn't come cheap.
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It actually staes in the archiving report that none of the evidence used to make the mccanns arguidos was confirmed. Its clear from the files taht the pJ did not listen to the advice of the uK police re the evidence.
I have provided an article from the guardian taht has Almeida stating that the main evidence against the mccanns was......am i allowed to say.....when they had been told taht this"evidence" had no evidential value.
we were also told in the Netflix Doc that when the PJ received the report from teh FSS...they only read the first paragraph..re 15 markers., and failed to raed or understand the rest of the report. That is pretty damning to me
But where's the evidence the McCanns were made aguidos solely on the 'evidence'. Robert Murat and others were also made aguidos on no such 'evidence'.
The McCanns may have been made arguidos to allow PJ to pursue a more direct accusatory line of questioning.
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But where's the evidence the McCanns were made aguidos solely on the 'evidence'. Robert Murat and others were also made aguidos on no such 'evidence'.
The McCanns may have been made arguidos to allow PJ to pursue a more direct accusatory line of questioning.
I never said they were made arguido solely on evidence. What I have said is taht the initial PJ investigation misunderstood the evidence...they thought they had proof Maddie died in the apartment...see amaral doc.
Amaral told us taht it wa sthe whole investigation taht shared his views. They were wrong and therfore deserve criticism
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A question was asked of Hogan Howe ,What do 30 officers do all day,he responded on the files being translated and about 40,000 documents having to be sifted through,didn't come cheap.
The police will always struggle imo until such time its face represents the population at large. It is perverse in the extreme that policing is so male dominated.
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I never said they were made arguido solely on evidence. What I have said is taht the initial PJ investigation misunderstood the evidence...they thought they had proof Maddie died in the apartment...see amaral doc.
Amaral told us taht it wa sthe whole investigation taht shared his views. They were wrong and therfore deserve criticism
Please provide supporting docs for your claims above.
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The police will always struggle imo until such time its face represents the population at large. It is perverse in the extreme that policing is so male dominated.
It would be kudos if Wall were to succeed where other's before her have failed,not going to happen in this case though imo.
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It would be kudos if Wall were to succeed where other's before her have failed,not going to happen in this case though imo.
She might if my theory is correct. Sisters working together ?>)()< 8(>((
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She might if my theory is correct. Sisters working together ?>)()< 8(>((
Don't include Commissioner Dick in there and all will be well.
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According to KM's book the 'find Madeleine' fund covered the cost of translating the files to the tune of some 100k.
She did not cover the police cost... That would not be allowed
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Don't include Commissioner Dick in there and all will be well.
Comm Dick seems more of a figure head involved in esoteric matters.
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Please provide supporting docs for your claims above.
What do you want a cite for
Amaral saying live on TV. ... In the next 60 minutes I will prove madeleine died in the aoartment
Or Amaral claiming it was not just him who believed this but the whole team
Have you read the proven facts re the libel trial
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What do you want a cite for
Amaral saying live on TV. ... In the next 60 minutes I will prove madeleine died in the aoartment
Or Amaral claiming it was not just him who believed this but the whole team
Have you read the proven facts re the libel trial
Davel I am not interested on one police officer.
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It would be kudos if Wall were to succeed where other's before her have failed,not going to happen in this case though imo.
Quite a few nice tries at deflection from the thread topic going on here. Please have the courtesy to desist. Neither "Wall" or any of the other named individuals you have highlighted are or were ever members of the original senior investigating team of the Judicial Police, or their hangers on, many of whom were subsequently shown in their true colours if their criminal convictions are anything to go by.
Please stick to the thread topic. Thank you.
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Quite a few nice tries at deflection from the thread topic going on here. Please have the courtesy to desist. Neither "Wall" or any of the other named individuals you have highlighted are or were ever members of the original senior investigating team of the Judicial Police, or their hangers on, many of whom were subsequently shown in their true colours if their criminal convictions are anything to go by.
Please stick to the thread topic. Thank you.
Yet 12 yrs on the case is as it was,nothing but nothing has been shown that the first investigation were incorrect .
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Quite a few nice tries at deflection from the thread topic going on here. Please have the courtesy to desist. Neither "Wall" or any of the other named individuals you have highlighted are or were ever members of the original senior investigating team of the Judicial Police, or their hangers on, many of whom were subsequently shown in their true colours if their criminal convictions are anything to go by.
Please stick to the thread topic. Thank you.
Hogan Howe:There's been enquiries in the uk where we could have done better,to be too judgemental in theses cases is wrong,I wasn't there and I'm not going to judge them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fifm5iYYaDA
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Yet 12 yrs on the case is as it was,nothing but nothing has been shown that the first investigation were incorrect .
Was Anyone Right To Criticise The Policia Judiciaria?
Please make the case for or against from the time of the initial report made of a missing child in May until the sacking of the case coordinator in September of that year of 2007 ... in that way perhaps you will manage to stay on topic.
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Was Anyone Right To Criticise The Policia Judiciaria?
Please make the case for or against from the time of the initial report made of a missing child in May until the sacking of the case coordinator in September of that year of 2007 ... in that way perhaps you will manage to stay on topic.
See my post above,I'll leave it to Hogan Howe who was in a far better place you or anyone else will ever be.
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Yet 12 yrs on the case is as it was,nothing but nothing has been shown that the first investigation were incorrect .
JT was told her claims of a man carrying a child in the vicinity were fabricated. It now appears that she was correct with her claims but the man wasn't MM's abductor.
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Davel I am not interested on one police officer.
Almeida said at the libel trial that the main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts... I provided a cite yesterday
Throughout Amaral trial it was stated that it was stressed that Amaral was repeating the conclusions of the whole team
The archiving report confirms this
Based on their failure to understand the evidence its quite reasonable to criticise the PJ
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Almeida said at the libel trial that the main evidence against the McCanns was the dog alerts... I provided a cite yesterday
Throughout Amaral trial it was stated that it was stressed that Amaral was repeating the conclusions of the whole team
The archiving report confirms this
Based on their failure to understand the evidence its quite reasonable to criticise the PJ
The case involves a whole lot more than you have mentioned above. Please do not start dragging the thread towards the dog alerts.
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The case involves a whole lot more than you have mentioned above. Please do not start dragging the thread towards the dog alerts.
They are central to the PJs misunderstanding of the case.. Their misunderstanding invites criticism. Ive also quoted their misunderstanding of the FSS report..
That's enough for me to criticise them
If you are going to ask a question then my answer is totally relevant. Otherwise I'm not able to support my criticism
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The case involves a whole lot more than you have mentioned above. Please do not start dragging the thread towards the dog alerts.
Shall I just say the PJ did not understand the evidence... The evidence that led them to suspect the mccanns
That's why I think it's reasonable to criticise them.. But I'm not allowed to say what that evidence was... Lol
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Shall I just say the PJ did not understand the evidence... The evidence that led them to suspect the mccanns
That's why I think it's reasonable to criticise them.. But I'm not allowed to say what that evidence was... Lol
If it had gone to trial and a possible miscarriage of justice occurred in opinion then yes it may be,but dogs alone?
Alleged 'staging' of 5a was another flag raised was it not.
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If it had gone to trial and a possible miscarriage of justice occurred in opinion then yes it may be,but dogs alone?
Alleged 'staging' of 5a was another flag raised was it not.
I thought the shutter was raised not a flag?
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I thought the shutter was raised not a flag?
I never mentioned the shutter but it was staged so it was thought,I'll have to find a link.
“She died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children,” Tavares de Almeida, former chief inspector at Portimao police station during the initial months of the investigation, told the court in Lisbon.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/portugal/6974917/Madeleine-McCanns-death-covered-up-by-parents-who-faked-kidnap-court-hears.html
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If it had gone to trial and a possible miscarriage of justice occurred in opinion then yes it may be,but dogs alone?
Staging of 5a was another flag raised was it not.
I never said the dogs alone... But according to Almeida the alerts were the main evidence
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I never mentioned the shutter but it was staged so it was thought,I'll have to find a link.
“She died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children,” Tavares de Almeida, former chief inspector at Portimao police station during the initial months of the investigation, told the court in Lisbon.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/portugal/6974917/Madeleine-McCanns-death-covered-up-by-parents-who-faked-kidnap-court-hears.html
That was the conclusion of the police report based on flawed evidence... That's why I'm happy to criticise the pj
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I never mentioned the shutter but it was staged so it was thought,I'll have to find a link.
“She died in the apartment as a result of a tragic accident and the parents simulated an abduction after failing to care of their children,” Tavares de Almeida, former chief inspector at Portimao police station during the initial months of the investigation, told the court in Lisbon.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/portugal/6974917/Madeleine-McCanns-death-covered-up-by-parents-who-faked-kidnap-court-hears.html
I was just being silly about a flag being raised.
I had thought initially KM might have 'staged' the shutter/window not to cover up anything about MM's disappearance per se but because she felt embarrassed, guilty etc about leaving the children alone in the unlocked apartment. So I was kind of with PJ on it. But now I believe the abductor(s) staged the shutter/window as it all fits puuuuurfectly with my theory.
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That was the conclusion of the police report based on flawed evidence... That's why I'm happy to criticise the pj
You don't know the evidence was flawed,what else can you bring to the table except dogs to further that criticism.
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You don't know the evidence was flawed,what else can you bring to the table except dogs to further that criticism.
Almeida referred to the alerts as the main evidence... So that was flawed.. Then the FSS report..
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That was the conclusion of the police report based on flawed evidence... That's why I'm happy to criticise the pj
But is it a man thing in that a group of investigators almost exclusively male cannot simply say 'sorry we've done our best and we can't solve it'.
The case against the McCanns was a non-starter hence it went nowhere. In other cases the so-called evidence against individuals has been weak or non-existent but the police resort to 'noble cause corruption' and other such measures and then we end up with miscarriages of justice.
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You don't know the evidence was flawed,what else can you bring to the table except dogs to further that criticism.
What evidence are you referring to?
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What evidence are you referring to?
There has to be other evidence not solely the dogs,I'd suggest we are not party to it,but what ever it was/is is not strong enough for a court to hear.imo
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There has to be other evidence not solely the dogs,I'd suggest we are not party to it,but what ever it was/is is not strong enough for a court to hear.imo
Why does there have to be other 'evidence'?
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But is it a man thing in that a group of investigators almost exclusively male cannot simply say 'sorry we've done our best and we can't solve it'.
The case against the McCanns was a non-starter hence it went nowhere. In other cases the so-called evidence against individuals has been weak or non-existent but the police resort to 'noble cause corruption' and other such measures and then we end up with miscarriages of justice.
The misunderstanding of the evidence meant the investigation went in the wrong direction
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The misunderstanding of the evidence meant the investigation went in the wrong direction
Not for long though, eh. This shows the 'evidence' was non-existent.
Could have been worse might have ended up wrongfully convicted like Amanda Knox in a foreign jail.
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No police force is above criticism, especially one that fails to find a missing child, and fails to solve the case, that goes for any police force anywhere. Furthermore, the PJ have been criticised by people who are well-placed to judge and they are entitled to their opinions, In Malaysia you must not question the police or speculate about what happened on pain of punishment, let’s hope we never find ourselves living in a society where one may not criticise those wielding the power.
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I think the personal attacks by the UK media on the Policia Judiciaria was an absolute disgrace. It was zenophobic and unwarranted. I saw it beginning to develop again towards the Malaysian police recently.
Holly was perfectly right; people are made arguidos because of the questions that the police want to ask them. Murat and the four 'burglars' were made arguidos because of suspicions, not because of hard evidence and it was the same with the McCanns.
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I think the personal attacks by the UK media on the Policia Judiciaria was an absolute disgrace. It was zenophobic and unwarranted. I saw it beginning to develop again towards the Malaysian police recently.
Holly was perfectly right; people are made arguidos because of the questions that the police want to ask them. Murat and the four 'burglars' were made arguidos because of suspicions, not because of hard evidence and it was the same with the McCanns.
Funny how some people here have no problem whatsoever criticising parental decisions (McCanns, Quorins) but when it comes to the police one must accept that they are above criticism (but only if they are foreign - UK cops are also ripe for a good kicking).
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I think the personal attacks by the UK media on the Policia Judiciaria was an absolute disgrace. It was zenophobic and unwarranted. I saw it beginning to develop again towards the Malaysian police recently.
Holly was perfectly right; people are made arguidos because of the questions that the police want to ask them. Murat and the four 'burglars' were made arguidos because of suspicions, not because of hard evidence and it was the same with the McCanns.
i think the criticism was warranted based on the fact tha tthe initial PJ investigation completely misunderstood the important evidence. IMO there was an agenda to protect portugal and blame the brits....i see the same happening in Malaysia now with a post mortem ruling out foul play to save Malaysias reputation.. I beleive the SC was similarly biased.
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i think the criticism was warranted based on the fact tha tthe initial PJ investigation completely misunderstood the important evidence. IMO there was an agenda to protect portugal and blame the brits....i see the same happening in Malaysia now with a post mortem ruling out foul play to save Malayas reputation.. I beleive the SC was similarly biased.
I think what’s at play here is the “racism” card. You can’t criticise foreign police forces’ obvious failings because that’s waycist and colonialist and how very dare we be so mean. There’s also a good dollop of British self-loathing in the mix too. IMO.
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I think the thread title exposes the inherent bias...of course I have the right to criticise the PJ ...why would anyone suggest I dont...
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I think the thread title exposes the inherent bias...of course I have the right to criticise the PJ ...why would anyone suggest I dont...
Try starting a thread called “are we right to criticise The Met” and see what sort of a response we get.
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What on earth is this British self loathing? We are one country in the world. Hurling insults such as 'fat', 'sweaty' and 'sardine-munching' at another country's policemen is not acceptable.
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What on earth is this British self loathing? We are one country in the world. Hurling insults such as 'fat', 'sweaty' and 'sardine-munching' at another country's policemen is not acceptable.
I think if the cap fits..... Why so sensitive... What happened to free speech... I think several of the PJ in the initial investigation were a disgrace and would add a few more insults
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What on earth is this British self loathing? We are one country in the world. Hurling insults such as 'fat', 'sweaty' and 'sardine-munching' at another country's policemen is not acceptable.
In your opinion. I think it’s fair comment. Did you not see the photos of fat, sweaty Goncalo in the papers at the time, looking like a real scruff bag? And we all know how much the Portuguese like sardines, it’s an established fact. The British self-loathing comes from the determination of some to run down all things British in order to excuse all things Portuguese of their short-comings. It happens all the time on here.
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In your opinion. I think it’s fair comment. Did you not see the photos of fat, sweaty Goncalo in the papers at the time, looking like a real scruff bag? And we all know how much the Portuguese like sardines, it’s an established fact. The British self-loathing comes from the determination of some to run down all things British in order to excuse all things Portuguese of their short-comings. It happens all the time on here.
I would rather be fair and impartial than insulting, biased and zenophobic. I think every police officer in every country does his or her best. Their best isn't always enough, but I would never sink to directing personal attacks at anyone to try and discredit them.
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I would rather be fair and impartial than insulting, biased and zenophobic. I think every police officer in every country does his or her best. Their best isn't always enough, but I would never sink to directing personal attacks at anyone to try and discredit them.
Firstly the word is xenophobic, secondly what an extraordinary declaration of faith in every police officer in every country, especially coming from one as suspicious as you are, as evidenced by your signature line. Is this a joke?
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Firstly the word is xenophobic, secondly what an extraordinary declaration of faith in every police offer in every country, especially coming from one as suspicious as you are, as evidenced by your signature line. Is this a joke?
Zenophobic
Being in a state of zenophobia or the fear of Zen. Those who are constantly zenophobic are called Zenophobes
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Zenophobic
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Firstly the word is xenophobic, secondly what an extraordinary declaration of faith in every police officer in every country, especially coming from one as suspicious as you are, as evidenced by your signature line. Is this a joke?
Anyone who thinks personal attacks on anyone are OK is not my kind of person. I have always opposed such behaviour which I see as childish, ignorant, bullying and immature.
In my opinion the media had nothing concrete to criticise the Portuguese police with, and neither did the McCanns. Kate in particular took to personal ridicule and complaining about a lack of refreshments, smoking and fast driving. Not one word of appreciation for the cancelled holidays, the long hours and the immense effort and expense Portugal expended because she put her pleasure before the safety of her children.
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Anyone who thinks personal attacks on anyone are OK is not my kind of person. I have always opposed such behaviour which I see as childish, ignorant, bullying and immature.
In my opinion the media had nothing concrete to criticise the Portuguese police with, and neither did the McCanns. Kate in particular took to personal ridicule and complaining about a lack of refreshments, smoking and fast driving. Not one word of appreciation for the cancelled holidays, the long hours and the immense effort and expense Portugal expended because she put her pleasure before the safety of her children.
I criticise the PJ because they failed to understand the evidence and imo my criticism is justified... Boozing at lunchtime didn't help
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Anyone who thinks personal attacks on anyone are OK is not my kind of person. I have always opposed such behaviour which I see as childish, ignorant, bullying and immature.
In my opinion the media had nothing concrete to criticise the Portuguese police with, and neither did the McCanns. Kate in particular took to personal ridicule and complaining about a lack of refreshments, smoking and fast driving. Not one word of appreciation for the cancelled holidays, the long hours and the immense effort and expense Portugal expended because she put her pleasure before the safety of her children.
Whats your opinion on the personal attacks carried out by sceptics against the McCanns
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Amaral was out at midnight drinking during the working week and then drinking again lunchtime... Long boozy lunches we are told...i don't see how he was fit to work
He instead enjoyed a twohour 10 minute lunch washed down with wine. The next day was a similar tale - lunch lasted two-and-a-half hours. And on Friday he was gone for more than three.
His longest session, which lasted three hours and 10 minutes, was on Friday afternoon. It meant he could not have carried out more than four-and-a-half hours of work all day. Amaral, 47, who has a young daughter, is No3 in the Madeleine inquiry, in charge of its day-to-day running. After one drinking spree this week, the moustachioed police chief got in his car and drove home.
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Anyone who thinks personal attacks on anyone are OK is not my kind of person. I have always opposed such behaviour which I see as childish, ignorant, bullying and immature.
In my opinion the media had nothing concrete to criticise the Portuguese police with, and neither did the McCanns. Kate in particular took to personal ridicule and complaining about a lack of refreshments, smoking and fast driving. Not one word of appreciation for the cancelled holidays, the long hours and the immense effort and expense Portugal expended because she put her pleasure before the safety of her children.
Says she making a personal attack on the mother of a missing child. Not one word of appreciation? How do you know? Were you there, or does it only count if it’s on the front page of the Sun?
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Whats your opinion on the personal attacks carried out by sceptics against the McCanns
Oh that’s fine obviously, its only when you criticise the PJ that it becomes immature AND childish, not to mention ignorant and bullying. Poor wee PJ.
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There was at least two words of appreciation in his speech for the Portuguese police
https://metro.co.uk/2007/07/13/mccanns-thank-wonderful-police-540333/
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Says she making a personal attack on the mother of a missing child. Not one word of appreciation? How do you know? Were you there, or does it only count if it’s on the front page of the Sun?
What did I say that was personal?
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What did I say that was personal?
You tell us she put pleasure above the welfare of her kids. I’m sure she would take that very personally indeed. Furthermore you describe personal attacks as childish, immature, bullying and ignorant- were you not ascribing these personal qualities to Kate who you have often complained about for making personal attacks?
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You tell us she put pleasure above the welfare of her kids. I’m sure she would take that very personally indeed. Furthermore you describe personal attacks as childish, immature, bullying and ignorant- were you not ascribing these personal qualities to Kate who you have often complained about for making personal attacks?
Imagine for a moment that the McCanns had hired a baby-sitter on 3rd. The baby-sitter felt hungry and went out to buy a take-away. She was only gone for 30 minutes, but when she returned MM had disappeared. She said PdL felt so safe she thought the children would be fine for half an hour. Do you think;
a) The McCanns would say her actions were within the bounds of reasonable baby-sitting
b) The McCanns would accuse her of carelessness and failing in her duty of care.
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Imagine for a moment that the McCanns had hired a baby-sitter on 3rd. The baby-sitter felt hungry and went out to buy a take-away. She was only gone for 30 minutes, but when she returned MM had disappeared. She said PdL felt so safe she thought the children would be fine for half an hour. Do you think;
a) The McCanns would say her actions were within the bounds of reasonable baby-sitting
b) The McCanns would accuse her of carelessness and failing in her duty of care.
Talk about deflection. talk about strawman. I was commenting on your double standards on personal attacks, got anything to say on that?.
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Imagine for a moment that the McCanns had hired a baby-sitter on 3rd. The baby-sitter felt hungry and went out to buy a take-away. She was only gone for 30 minutes, but when she returned MM had disappeared. She said PdL felt so safe she thought the children would be fine for half an hour. Do you think;
a) The McCanns would say her actions were within the bounds of reasonable baby-sitting
b) The McCanns would accuse her of carelessness and failing in her duty of care.
You forgot
c) Insist that the baby-sitter didn't commit a crime its the person who has taken a little girl away from her family.
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You forgot
c) Insist that the baby-sitter didn't commit a crime its the person who has taken a little girl away from her family.
I think KM's criticism of PJ is unjust and unfair given her own shortcomings.
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I think KM's criticism of PJ is unjust and unfair given her own shortcomings.
Do you think anyone cares what you think... Do you think your opinion is of any importance
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Do you think anyone cares what you think... Do you think your opinion is of any importance
The only answer to that must be YES.
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The only answer to that must be YES.
I dont agree at all..I think some posters here have an inflated view of the importance of their opinion...in reality they are of no importance
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I dont agree at all..I think some posters here have an inflated view of the importance of their opinion...in reality they are of no importance
You weren't asking about reality but just what a person thinks.
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You weren't asking about reality but just what a person thinks.
do you think Hollys opinion is of any importance in the real world
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I dont agree at all..I think some posters here have an inflated view of the importance of their opinion...in reality they are of no importance
For someone whose opinion is of no importance, you are racking up non-important posts at breakneck speed.
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For someone whose opinion is of no importance, you are racking up non-important posts at breakneck speed.
thats because i think very fast... no ones opinion here is of any importance... i realise that...and you should realise it too
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Do you think anyone cares what you think... Do you think your opinion is of any importance
UKJF is a debating forum where we express our views on subject matters. My thoughts and opinions are no more or less important than the next persons.
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do you think Hollys opinion is of any importance in the real world
Holly's opinion is no more or less important than anyone else's in the real or virtual world.
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UKJF is a debating forum where we express our views on subject matters. My thoughts and opinions are no more or less important than the next persons.
I absolutely agree ...all opinions are basically worthless
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I absolutely agree ...all opinions are basically worthless
Which begs the obvious question. Why indulge in an exercise in futility?
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I absolutely agree ...all opinions are basically worthless
No not at all opinions are worthless. Eg jurors opinions about a defendant are extremely important to the outcome of a trial.
Anyway Davel we are veering off topic.
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Which begs the obvious question. Why indulge in an exercise in futility?
are you of he opinion your opinions are important
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No not at all opinions are worthless. Eg jurors opinions about a defendant are extremely important to the outcome of a trial.
Anyway Davel we are veering off topic.
I agree...but we are not jurors... and if you were a juror...your opinion that kate was unfair to criticise teh pj would not be important
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are you of he opinion your opinions are important
Stop deflecting. Answer the question you were asked.
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Stop deflecting. Answer the question you were asked.
the question asked .. I dont post here because the forum has any importance...I post to discuss the case...is that futile ...I do lots of things in the real world taht are not futile
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You forgot
c) Insist that the baby-sitter didn't commit a crime its the person who has taken a little girl away from her family.
Oh yes, I forgot that. If the baby-sitter had been criticised on social media I expect they would have defended her too. We would have been told that it wasn't her fault, nobody told her that there were burglars and paedophiles around. She was a good baby-sitter who really cared. She just made a mistake; if you want to call it that.
You think?
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Oh yes, I forgot that. If the baby-sitter had been criticised on social media I expect they would have defended her too. We would have been told that it wasn't her fault, nobody told her that there were burglars and paedophiles around. She was a good baby-sitter who really cared. She just made a mistake; if you want to call it that.
You think?
your argument has a serious flaw
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Was Robert Murat right to criticise the PJ or should he have just quietly taken it on the chin? As I recall he claimed the PJ tried to intimidate him into a confession, fancy criticising them for that! He should have been grateful they didn’t beat him up and push him down the stairs. Right?
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do you think Hollys opinion is of any importance in the real world
It is better than a person's opinion who doesn't know.
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deleted
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Stop deflecting. Answer the question you were asked.
Gosh, how bossy. Ever heard of please and thank you?
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Gosh, how bossy. Ever heard of please and thank you?
Por favor.
Gracias.
(&^&
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I have criticised the PJ.
I feel they should have seperated the T9 immediatly, and questioned them individually. Not given them time to 'discuss' a timeline.
They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their childrens welfare.
I feel they were given too much of a say at the begining.
With regards to all the other negative stuff I found that embarrassing and'little Englander mentality'.
The PJ had to work with made up timelines, which didn't fit, they thought they were dealing with a missing child who wandered- this changed drastically to MBM being abducted. Chopping and changing direction is a serious contender for people who have something to hide.
I am of the opinion the PJ were begining to see more to this than they initially thought when they were at the scene witnessing the behaviour etc- T9 saw this which is why they began that eve by their attack on the police. Accusing them of doing nothing and leaving Kate and Gerry to go look for theoir daughter by themselves, which was a lie.
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I have criticised the PJ.
I feel they should have seperated the T9 immediatly, and questioned them individually. Not given them time to 'discuss' a timeline.
They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their childrens welfare.
I feel they were given too much of a say at the begining.
With regards to all the other negative stuff I found that embarrassing and'little Englander mentality'.
The PJ had to work with made up timelines, which didn't fit, they thought they were dealing with a missing child who wandered- this changed drastically to MBM being abducted. Chopping and changing direction is a serious contender for people who have something to hide.
I am of the opinion the PJ were begining to see more to this than they initially thought when they were at the scene witnessing the behaviour etc- T9 saw this which is why they began that eve by their attack on the police. Accusing them of doing nothing and leaving Kate and Gerry to go look for their daughter by themselves, which was a lie.
OK that is your view but would you like to put some suggested times to your plan?
1. "I feel they should have separated the T9 immediately" When should that have happened? What time and who by the GNR or the PJ?
2. "and questioned them individually" Would that mean they would be locked up until interpreters are located?
Who's looking after the remaining 7 kids while the parents are detained?
3. "They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their children's welfare." When would they get arguido status for that crime? That status would interfere with the above questioning wouldn't it?
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OK that is your view but would you like to put some suggested times to your plan?
1. "I feel they should have separated the T9 immediately" When should that have happened? What time and who by the GNR or the PJ?
2. "and questioned them individually" Would that mean they would be locked up until interpreters are located?
Who's looking after the remaining 7 kids while the parents are detained?
3. "They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their children's welfare." When would they get arguido status for that crime? That status would interfere with the above questioning wouldn't it?
What will happen if they find MBM will they be arrestd by PJ or MET? These happened in the UK:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/22/woman-arrested-boy-10-died-found-unconscious-caravan-10616669/
anothr ein another thread- Vietnamese girl abducted 8 men arrested- last seen with an Asian male about 20 yrs old.
1. "I feel they should have separated the T9 immediately" When should that have happened? What time and who by the GNR or the PJ?
As soon as the GNR police got there and saw what was happening -had happened.They should have been removed and taken to local police dept. interpretors brought in and the nannies used look after the remaining children.
3. "They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their children's welfare." When would they get arguido status for that crime? That status would interfere with the above questioning wouldn't it?
They would be held and questioned- stories collaborated- and charged with law they have for such behaviour- including interfering with a crime scene-misleading police regarding shutters/window story.
Inhave it on very good authority- this is what would have happened if they were in the UK. children's family would be asked to look after them or placed in foster care.
MBM has not had justice- this is the reason for this thread is it not?
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What will happen if they find MBM will they be arrestd by PJ or MET? These happened in the UK:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/22/woman-arrested-boy-10-died-found-unconscious-caravan-10616669/
anothr ein another thread- Vietnamese girl abducted 8 men arrested- last seen with an Asian male about 20 yrs old.
1. "I feel they should have separated the T9 immediately" When should that have happened? What time and who by the GNR or the PJ?
As soon as the GNR police got there and saw what was happening -had happened.They should have been removed and taken to local police dept. interpretors brought in and the nannies used look after the remaining children.
3. "They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their children's welfare." When would they get arguido status for that crime? That status would interfere with the above questioning wouldn't it?
They would be held and questioned- stories collaborated- and charged with law they have for such behaviour- including interfering with a crime scene-misleading police regarding shutters/window story.
Inhave it on very good authority- this is what would have happened if they were in the UK. children's family would be asked to look after them or placed in foster care.
MBM has not had justice- this is the reason for this thread is it not?
You should realise there are diffent opinions...maddie had no justice because the incompetent PJ didnt understand the evidence...they seemed to be more interested in long lunches ....with wine and beer ...in the local restaraunt....from what I have read
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What will happen if they find MBM will they be arrestd by PJ or MET? These happened in the UK:
https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/22/woman-arrested-boy-10-died-found-unconscious-caravan-10616669/
anothr ein another thread- Vietnamese girl abducted 8 men arrested- last seen with an Asian male about 20 yrs old.
1. "I feel they should have separated the T9 immediately" When should that have happened? What time and who by the GNR or the PJ?
As soon as the GNR police got there and saw what was happening -had happened.They should have been removed and taken to local police dept. interpretors brought in and the nannies used look after the remaining children.
3. "They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their children's welfare." When would they get arguido status for that crime? That status would interfere with the above questioning wouldn't it?
They would be held and questioned- stories collaborated- and charged with law they have for such behaviour- including interfering with a crime scene-misleading police regarding shutters/window story.
Inhave it on very good authority- this is what would have happened if they were in the UK. children's family would be asked to look after them or placed in foster care.
MBM has not had justice- this is the reason for this thread is it not?
In my theory there would have been an advantage if what you propose did happen, but how certain can the GNR be that there wasn't a little girl lost in the streets of PdL?
Do the GNR have the power to arrest and detain? Or is that just a PJ function?
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I have criticised the PJ.
I feel they should have seperated the T9 immediatly, and questioned them individually. Not given them time to 'discuss' a timeline.
They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their childrens welfare.
I feel they were given too much of a say at the begining.
With regards to all the other negative stuff I found that embarrassing and'little Englander mentality'.
The PJ had to work with made up timelines, which didn't fit, they thought they were dealing with a missing child who wandered- this changed drastically to MBM being abducted. Chopping and changing direction is a serious contender for people who have something to hide.
I am of the opinion the PJ were begining to see more to this than they initially thought when they were at the scene witnessing the behaviour etc- T9 saw this which is why they began that eve by their attack on the police. Accusing them of doing nothing and leaving Kate and Gerry to go look for theoir daughter by themselves, which was a lie.
As it is, I don't take your meanderings too seriously.
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I have criticised the PJ.
I feel they should have seperated the T9 immediatly, and questioned them individually. Not given them time to 'discuss' a timeline.
They should also have charged them with what ever law they had to cover their behaviour regarding their childrens welfare.
I feel they were given too much of a say at the begining.
With regards to all the other negative stuff I found that embarrassing and'little Englander mentality'.
The PJ had to work with made up timelines, which didn't fit, they thought they were dealing with a missing child who wandered- this changed drastically to MBM being abducted. Chopping and changing direction is a serious contender for people who have something to hide.
I am of the opinion the PJ were begining to see more to this than they initially thought when they were at the scene witnessing the behaviour etc- T9 saw this which is why they began that eve by their attack on the police. Accusing them of doing nothing and leaving Kate and Gerry to go look for theoir daughter by themselves, which was a lie.
I agree MTI. The fact that they refused to participate in a reconstruction says it all in my book.
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I agree MTI. The fact that they refused to participate in a reconstruction says it all in my book.
What does it say in your book?
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I agree MTI. The fact that they refused to participate in a reconstruction says it all in my book.
The Smiths are unreliable witnesses in spite of taking part in a reconstruction. The parents and their friends are reliable in spite of not taking part in a reconstruction. It’s a rum old world.
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What does it say in your book?
A child disappeared yet when the police asked the tapas group to assist the investigation they all reneged. I'm sure if Maddie is still alive she will be so grateful for this.
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A child disappeared yet when the police asked the tapas group to assist the investigation they all reneged. I'm sure if Maddie is still alive she will be so grateful for this.
If Madeleine is alive then a reconstruction by her family and their friends would have done absolutely nothing whatsoever to enable her to be found.
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If Madeleine is alive then a reconstruction by her family and their friends would have done absolutely nothing whatsoever to enable her to be found.
What a very good point.
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If Madeleine is alive then a reconstruction by her family and their friends would have done absolutely nothing whatsoever to enable her to be found.
You should join the police VS. After all, you appear to know more than they did and they were there. 😂
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You should join the police VS. After all, you appear to know more than they did and they were there. 😂
I don’t need to have joined the police to see how completely illogical your post is.
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If Madeleine is alive then a reconstruction by her family and their friends would have done absolutely nothing whatsoever to enable her to be found.
By that logic if she is dead then a reconstruction would have helped find out what happened.
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By that logic if she is dead then a reconstruction would have helped find out what happened.
No, that is by your logic.
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By that logic if she is dead then a reconstruction would have helped find out what happened.
The so called "reconstitution" has been flogged to death on numerous occasions on the forum and as far as I am concerned really doesn't require revisiting.
However I think it is worthwhile belaying that opinion to ask you the way in which you think a reconstruction as proposed by the Portuguese would have progressed Madeleine's case? ... glutton for punishment as I am|
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The so called "reconstitution" has been flogged to death on numerous occasions on the forum and as far as I am concerned really doesn't require revisiting.
However I think it is worthwhile belaying that opinion to ask you the way in which you think a reconstruction as proposed by the Portuguese would have progressed Madeleine's case? ... glutton for punishment as I am|
Having seen the effects of being declared as an arguido I could imagine the other members of the T9 and Jez Wilkins were justified to be reluctant to return to Portugal.
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Having seen the effects of being declared as an arguido I could imagine the other members of the T9 and Jez Wilkins were justified to be reluctant to return to Portugal.
Bit of a bummer then for the 4 residents of Luz and surrounds who were arguidoed at OG request in July 2014? Maybe they should have left Portugal to avoid that experience?
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Bit of a bummer then for the 4 residents of Luz and surrounds who were arguidoed at OG request in July 2014? Maybe they should have left Portugal to avoid that experience?
It certainly was a bit if a bummer for them, especially if they had nothing to do with the disappearance. Of course, they still haven’t been cleared so it is still possible that they did.
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It certainly was a bit if a bummer for them, especially if they had nothing to do with the disappearance. Of course, they still haven’t been cleared so it is still possible that they did.
How do we know if they have had any bad effects from being made arguidos?
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Bit of a bummer then for the 4 residents of Luz and surrounds who were arguidoed at OG request in July 2014? Maybe they should have left Portugal to avoid that experience?
Yes! bit remiss of them not to open up a company 'fund' to fight the accusations using the best lawyers other peoples money can buy!
The T9 left devistation in that community, and never aknowledged responsibility on their part for a little girl- still missing.