UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 12:50:07 AM

Title: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 12:50:07 AM
Brenda Leyland was tried and convicted by the media long before SY had looked at the facts surrounding her tweets and found she had broke no law.

Is it right that, although not charged with any crime, she was vilified like a common criminal or was she, like ever other U.K. citizen, entitled not to have her identity made public until she was actually accused of a crime ?

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Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 07:29:27 AM
Brenda Leyland was tried and convicted by the media long before SY had looked at the facts surrounding her tweets and found she had broke no law.

Is it right that, although not charged with any crime, she was vilified like a common criminal or was she, like ever other U.K. citizen, entitled not to have her identity made public until she was actually accused of a crime ?
Are you suggesting that the media should be denied the opportunity to report on anything they believe is in the public interest lest it leads to the suicide of the subject of its news story?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 08:07:49 AM
None of the other people in that infamous dossier was outed following Brunt's 'scoop'. None of them was prosecuted by the police either. Their 'crimes' existed only in the eyes of those who took it  upon themselves to compile the dossier and hand it to the media. That's something neither they nor Sky News were qualified to decide in my opinion.

Respect for the law is important because we live by the rule of law. If the law is wrong it's OK to campaign to change it, it's not OK to take it into your own hands.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 08:12:14 AM
None of the other people in that infamous dossier was outed following Brunt's 'scoop'. None of them was prosecuted by the police either. Their 'crimes' existed only in the eyes of those who took it  upon themselves to compile the dossier and hand it to the media. That's something neither they nor Sky News were qualified to decide in my opinion.

Respect for the law is important because we live by the rule of law. If the law is wrong it's OK to campaign to change it, it's not OK to take it into your own hands.


A Question.
If you were aware of intimidating posts, hate posts etc being made against a named family and this was continuing week after week.
What would you do?
And if you chose to do nothing, how would you feel if one of these posters did carry out their threats.

I know of a young girl who hanged herself because of continuing social media intimidation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 20, 2018, 08:12:59 AM
None of the other people in that infamous dossier was outed following Brunt's 'scoop'. None of them was prosecuted by the police either. Their 'crimes' existed only in the eyes of those who took it  upon themselves to compile the dossier and hand it to the media. That's something neither they nor Sky News were qualified to decide in my opinion.

Respect for the law is important because we live by the rule of law. If the law is wrong it's OK to campaign to change it, it's not OK to take it into your own hands.

exactly the dossier  creators and  sky  news    uk  are  to blame for brenda killing herself imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 08:22:43 AM

A Question.
If you were aware of intimidating posts, hate posts etc being made against a named family and this was continuing week after week.
What would you do?
And if you chose to do nothing, how would you feel if one of these posters did carry out their threats.

I know of a young girl who hanged herself because of continuing social media intimidation.

Who decides whether a crime has been or is about to be committed? The police. The police were made aware and there the 'concerned citizen's' involvement ends.

 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 08:28:07 AM
Brenda Leyland was tried and convicted by the media long before SY had looked at the facts surrounding her tweets and found she had broke no law.

Is it right that, although not charged with any crime, she was vilified like a common criminal or was she, like ever other U.K. citizen, entitled not to have her identity made public until she was actually accused of a crime ?


Brenda Leyland got vilified and didn't break any laws,Cliff Richard's on the other hand broke no laws but won compensation, go figure.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 08:36:19 AM

Brenda Leyland got vilified and didn't break any laws,Cliff Richard's on the other hand broke no laws but won compensation, go figure.

Did her family take any action against Sky?
Not necessarily legal action but did they express any grievance with Sky.
If I felt a family member had committed suicide because of the behaviour of a television channel, I would certainly make my opinion known.
But perhaps the family knew her better than any of us and perhaps because she had attempted suicide before, they were aware perhaps that it was much more complex than any of us would know.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 08:38:23 AM
Who decides whether a crime has been or is about to be committed? The police. The police were made aware and there the 'concerned citizen's' involvement ends.

Does behaviour have to be criminal before it is deemed wrong?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 08:39:06 AM
Did her family take any action against Sky?
Not necessarily legal action but did they express any grievance with Sky.
If I felt a family member had committed suicide because of the behaviour of a television channel, I would certainly make my opinion known.
But perhaps the family knew her better than any of us and perhaps because she had attempted suicide before, they were aware perhaps that it was much more complex than any of us would know.


Doesn't escape the fact there was a trial my media in both cases,yet one goes on to win compensation,the other sadly loses her life.Neither of them broke any laws.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 08:43:44 AM

A Question.
If you were aware of intimidating posts, hate posts etc being made against a named family and this was continuing week after week.
What would you do?
And if you chose to do nothing, how would you feel if one of these posters did carry out their threats.

I know of a young girl who hanged herself because of continuing social media intimidation.

 Surely you should:

a) contact the social media platform and point out someone is breaking it's rules ( if they are)

b) consult lawyers if you think someone is committing libel ( but you have to be the alleged victim to do this)

b) contact police if you believe someone is committing the crimes of harassment or stalking. ( with evidence )

c) not take it upon yourself to contact the media about one particular individual and encourage them to single that person out before the police have investigated that person.


   Or maybe I would ignore the posts as they were someones opinion and not threats against someone. It's called freedom of speech. You mention threats, where did Brenda ever make a threat?

   From Sky news  "she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard. ''

The people who compiled the dossier took it upon themselves to define what is acceptable or not for individuals to say and then in contacting the press engaged in harassing an individual, which is something they were supposedly against!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 20, 2018, 08:45:42 AM
Surely you should:

a) contact the social media platform and point out someone is breaking it's rules ( if they are)

b) consult lawyers if you think someone is committing libel ( but you have to be the alleged victim to do this)

b) contact police if you believe someone is committing the crimes of harassment or stalking. ( with evidence )

c) not take it upon yourself to contact the media about one particular individual and encourage them to single that person out before the police have investigated that person.


   Or maybe I would ignore the posts as they were someones opinion and not threats against someone. It's called freedom of speech. You mention threats, where did Brenda ever make a threat?

   From Sky news  "she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard. ''

The people who compiled the dossier took it upon themselves to define what is acceptable or not for individuals to say and then in contacting the press engaged in harassing an individual, which is something they were supposedly against!

exactly  its been a taboo subject for  supporters but   i have no doubt if they had not taken it on themselves to act on the mcanns behalf   brenda would be alive right  now
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 09:10:17 AM
exactly  its been a taboo subject for  supporters but   i have no doubt if they had not taken it on themselves to act on the mcanns behalf   brenda would be alive right  now

 Yes, the McCanns supposedly were unaware of twitter and didn't use it. So how could they say any of it impacted on them?

  The people compiling the dossier couldn't get Brenda banned from twitter because she wasn't breaking their rules and the police weren't particularly interested because she made no threats or stalking ( as defined in law) occurred.
 
They used the press before the police had concluded anything, intimidating someone as their preferred method of stifling free speech.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 09:11:43 AM
Does behaviour have to be criminal before it is deemed wrong?

Deemed wrong by some, but who decides that their opinion is right? Them?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 09:14:20 AM
Surely you should:

a) contact the social media platform and point out someone is breaking it's rules ( if they are)

b) consult lawyers if you think someone is committing libel ( but you have to be the alleged victim to do this)

b) contact police if you believe someone is committing the crimes of harassment or stalking. ( with evidence )

c) not take it upon yourself to contact the media about one particular individual and encourage them to single that person out before the police have investigated that person.


   Or maybe I would ignore the posts as they were someones opinion and not threats against someone. It's called freedom of speech. You mention threats, where did Brenda ever make a threat?

   From Sky news  "she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard. ''

The people who compiled the dossier took it upon themselves to define what is acceptable or not for individuals to say and then in contacting the press engaged in harassing an individual, which is something they were supposedly against!

Very well put.  8@??)(
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:15:46 AM

Brenda Leyland got vilified and didn't break any laws,Cliff Richard's on the other hand broke no laws but won compensation, go figure.
Cliff Richard has been vilified for years on the internet, and probably still is being to this day, "Brenda Leyland - internet troll" was a storm in a teacup and had she not chosen to end her life, her brush with infamy would have been yesterday's fish and chip paper by the weekend.  As it is, I doubt her name or her story now means anything whatsoever to 99.9% of the country's population. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 09:15:50 AM
Yes, the McCanns supposedly were unaware of twitter and didn't use it. So how could they say any of it impacted on them?

  The people compiling the dossier couldn't get Brenda banned from twitter because she wasn't breaking their rules and the police weren't particularly interested because she made no threats or stalking ( as defined in law) occurred.
 
They used the press before the police had concluded anything, intimidating someone as their preferred method of stifling free speech.

So if you read continuing threatening and nasty posts against a named person who were themselves unaware of these threats, you would deem these posts as unimportant just because the person being threatened was unaware of the threats.
Just because the rules of posting on social media are so futile does not make it acceptable to post  hate!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
None of the other people in that infamous dossier was outed following Brunt's 'scoop'. None of them was prosecuted by the police either. Their 'crimes' existed only in the eyes of those who took it  upon themselves to compile the dossier and hand it to the media. That's something neither they nor Sky News were qualified to decide in my opinion.

Respect for the law is important because we live by the rule of law. If the law is wrong it's OK to campaign to change it, it's not OK to take it into your own hands.
What do you think of the Hacked Off campaign?  Rhetorical question, no need to answer. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:18:10 AM
Who decides whether a crime has been or is about to be committed? The police. The police were made aware and there the 'concerned citizen's' involvement ends.
Your complete and utter trust in the police to decide when to pursue a criminal prosecution is very surprising to me. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 09:19:18 AM
Deemed wrong by some, but who decides that their opinion is right? Them?

Most right minding folk would deem it wrong to post threatening and abusive posts to a family of a missing child, even if the recipients of such posts are unaware of them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:20:42 AM
Most right minding folk would deem it wrong to post threatening and abusive posts to a family of a missing child, even if the recipients of such posts are unaware of them.

Brenda leyland commited no crime so what threating and abusive post's are you refering to?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:23:59 AM
Surely you should:

a) contact the social media platform and point out someone is breaking it's rules ( if they are)

b) consult lawyers if you think someone is committing libel ( but you have to be the alleged victim to do this)

b) contact police if you believe someone is committing the crimes of harassment or stalking. ( with evidence )

c) not take it upon yourself to contact the media about one particular individual and encourage them to single that person out before the police have investigated that person.


   Or maybe I would ignore the posts as they were someones opinion and not threats against someone. It's called freedom of speech. You mention threats, where did Brenda ever make a threat?

   From Sky news  "she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard. ''

The people who compiled the dossier took it upon themselves to define what is acceptable or not for individuals to say and then in contacting the press engaged in harassing an individual, which is something they were supposedly against!
The people who compiled the dossier did just that - compile a dossier.  There's no law against it.  There is no law against sending it to the media, it's up to the media if they act on it.  No one held a gun to anyone's head as far as I'm aware, nor was Brenda specifically targeted but was one of dozens of anonymous tweeters, Brunt tracked down her identity himself.  What exactly are you suggesting - that concerned members of the public, who are ignored by the police, should just put up with things, as the police have the final word on all matters?  Tell that to the victims of the Hillsborough disaster, to child sex grooming gangs, and thousands of other injustices that have been highlighted by the media, forcing the police to finally get their arses in gear and act. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 09:25:09 AM
Brenda leyland commited no crime so what threating and abusive post's are you refering to?

That's the problem.
It would seem posting nasty and abusive posts is not a crime.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 09:25:22 AM
So if you read continuing threatening and nasty posts against a named person who were themselves unaware of these threats, you would deem these posts as unimportant just because the person being threatened was unaware of the threats.
Just because the rules of posting on social media are so futile does not make it acceptable to post  hate!

Nasty is a subjective term.    'threat' is not so subjective. Where did Brenda threaten anyone, she didn't!

 The problem with the 'troll dossier' is people taking it upon themselves to be moral police and trying to silence other people based on their opinions.  no-one has a right to do that IMO, there are laws there for if someone makes threats towards you, having 'nasty' opinions is not against the law, so people shouldn't be contacting the police and media about it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 09:29:25 AM
Your complete and utter trust in the police to decide when to pursue a criminal prosecution is very surprising to me.

I never said I trusted them, I said it's their job not the public's or the media's.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:29:57 AM
Cliff Richard has been vilified for years on the internet, and probably still is being to this day, "Brenda Leyland - internet troll" was a storm in a teacup and had she not chosen to end her life, her brush with infamy would have been yesterday's fish and chip paper by the weekend.  As it is, I doubt her name or her story now means anything whatsoever to 99.9% of the country's population.

Shouldn't two innocent parties receive the same amount of privacy?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 09:31:38 AM
Nasty is a subjective term.    'threat' is not so subjective. Where did Brenda threaten anyone, she didn't!

 The problem with the 'troll dossier' is people taking it upon themselves to be moral police and trying to silence other people based on their opinions.  no-one has a right to do that IMO, there are laws there for if someone makes threats towards you, having 'nasty' opinions is not against the law, so people shouldn't be contacting the police and media about it.

If you don't describe the abuse and threats made on social media to the McCanns as nasty, then we have different standards of acceptable behaviour.
There are now two threads about this lady and for today I am finished posting on either.
In modern terminology, we are in the process of a a major refurbishment and I will be very busy.j
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 09:34:25 AM
The people who compiled the dossier did just that - compile a dossier.  There's no law against it.  There is no law against sending it to the media, it's up to the media if they act on it.  No one held a gun to anyone's head as far as I'm aware, nor was Brenda specifically targeted but was one of dozens of anonymous tweeters, Brunt tracked down her identity himself.  What exactly are you suggesting - that concerned members of the public, who are ignored by the police, should just put up with things, as the police have the final word on all matters?  Tell that to the victims of the Hillsborough disaster, to child sex grooming gangs, and thousands of other injustices that have been highlighted by the media, forcing the police to finally get their arses in gear and act.

 Yes Brenda was unfairly targeted. It was her doorstep that Sky turned up on. Was she someone with resources or a press team of her own to handle such intrusion?  If we want to get into moral debates then there's one for you.  Why did sky not want to doorstep some male 'trolls' or was an older single woman on her own an easier target?

   Brenda's name was unfairly linked with other people's messages in the Daily Mail giving the impression that she was responsible for most of what was said. She was set up as a scapegoat.

  The concerned members of the public in this case chose not to wait for the police to investigate, this is not the same as Hillsborough where police refused to investigate!  Also Brenda committed no crime by expressing her opinions, so how was the situation an 'injustice'?  How you can compare it to Hillsborough, I don't know.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 09:35:46 AM
If you don't describe the abuse and threats made on social media to the McCanns as nasty, then we have different standards of acceptable behaviour.
There are now two threads about this lady and for today I am finished posting on either.
In modern terminology, we are in the process of a a major refurbishment and I will be very busy.j

You originally said Brenda made threats. She didn't.  ....and you miss the point again, being nasty is not a crime and never should be. The whole point of freedom of speech is that we defend people's opinions even if we don't agree with them.
 
   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 09:36:06 AM
exactly the dossier  creators and  sky  news    uk  are  to blame for brenda killing herself imo

You are making a very serious accusation there carly.    No one knows what drove BL to kill herself,  she had attempted it once before.   It could have been a row with one of her sons for example.   Martin Brunt stated she was in a good frame of mind when he last spoke to her. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:39:03 AM
Brenda Leyland was tried and convicted by the media long before SY had looked at the facts surrounding her tweets and found she had broke no law.

Is it right that, although not charged with any crime, she was vilified like a common criminal or was she, like ever other U.K. citizen, entitled not to have her identity made public until she was actually accused of a crime ?

At 28 seconds Brunt tells Leyland she had been reported to the police and Scotland yard were investigating.So she didn't or wasn't receiving any right it would seem.

 https://youtu.be/2pW0_bh4bz4?t=30s
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:40:54 AM
I never said I trusted them, I said it's their job not the public's or the media's.
So if the police refuse to investigate serious allegations of misconduct within their own ranks for example, then tough shit, live with it, don't take the evidence to the media.  Okie dokes.  Sounds a bit police state-ish to me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:42:09 AM
So if the police refuse to investigate serious allegations of misconduct within their own ranks for example, then tough shit, live with it, don't take the evidence to the media.  Okie dokes.  Sounds a bit police state-ish to me.

It is at times when the police investigate themselves.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:42:54 AM
Shouldn't two innocent parties receive the same amount of privacy?
Well you'll be pleased to learn that Cliff's Law means that anyone simply suspected of any crime by the police will be protected from any media coverage in future. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:44:30 AM
Well you'll be pleased to learn that Cliff's Law means that anyone simply suspected of any crime by the police will be protected from any media coverage in future.

10/15 yrs ago it wouldn't have been known before the internet age anyway.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 09:45:33 AM
Yes Brenda was unfairly targeted. It was her doorstep that Sky turned up on. Was she someone with resources or a press team of her own to handle such intrusion?  If we want to get into moral debates then there's one for you.  Why did sky not want to doorstep some male 'trolls' or was an older single woman on her own an easier target?

   Brenda's name was unfairly linked with other people's messages in the Daily Mail giving the impression that she was responsible for most of what was said. She was set up as a scapegoat.

  The concerned members of the public in this case chose not to wait for the police to investigate, this is not the same as Hillsborough where police refused to investigate!  Also Brenda committed no crime by expressing her opinions, so how was the situation an 'injustice'?  How you can compare it to Hillsborough, I don't know.

I believe BL was in conversation with Martin Brunt on twitter.    He was not to know she was mentally delicate,  on the contrary she sounded by her tweets to be a very confident woman.   Her tweets were among those others that were taken from the internet.   Martin Brunt no doubt knew BL and where she lived.   Its a journalists job to confront people,  he was doing his job.   It is very unfortunate that he chose BL to confront as unknown to him she was mentally ill.   Martin Brunt said he was devastated by her death.   BL didn't have to take Martin Brunt into her home,  she didn't have to converse with him at all.   When asked why she was sending her tweets she replied 'I have a right to' or similar words,  she could have just left it at that.   BL made it quite clear in the area where she lived her views on the McCann's.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 09:49:19 AM
Yes Brenda was unfairly targeted. It was her doorstep that Sky turned up on. Was she someone with resources or a press team of her own to handle such intrusion?  If we want to get into moral debates then there's one for you.  Why did sky not want to doorstep some male 'trolls' or was an older single woman on her own an easier target?

   Brenda's name was unfairly linked with other people's messages in the Daily Mail giving the impression that she was responsible for most of what was said. She was set up as a scapegoat.

  The concerned members of the public in this case chose not to wait for the police to investigate, this is not the same as Hillsborough where police refused to investigate!  Also Brenda committed no crime by expressing her opinions, so how was the situation an 'injustice'?  How you can compare it to Hillsborough, I don't know.
I am talking about the principle of alerting the media to perceived injustices or criminal behaviour.   You either believe in the right of any individual to go to the media with their concerns when the police seem disinterested, and in the right of the media to decide whether or not what has been brought to them is worthy of reporting, or you don't - whether it's a big tragic case like Hillsborough in which police failings seemed to be brushed under the carper by a police force closing ranks and protecting its own,  or the sustained and lengthy campaign of a bunch of online anonymous commentators who use social media to intimidate, mock, deride, insinuate, threaten, accuse and spread lies about the family of a missing child and anyone associated with them, including their supporters.  Phew!  Long sentence.  Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:50:48 AM
Well you'll be pleased to learn that Cliff's Law means that anyone simply suspected of any crime by the police will be protected from any media coverage in future.

In the Claudia Lawrence Murder case there have been around 5 men arrested at various times later released with out charge,as far as I can see only one man was named and that was possibly it seems locally.So not naming anyone doesn't need no cliff's law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 09:51:23 AM
If you don't describe the abuse and threats made on social media to the McCanns as nasty, then we have different standards of acceptable behaviour.
There are now two threads about this lady and for today I am finished posting on either.
In modern terminology, we are in the process of a a major refurbishment and I will be very busy.j

It's obvious that people have different opinions on what is 'nasty'. Some think its nasty to criticise the McCann's childcare arrangements. I think it's not. Some think it's OK to make fun of policemen in another country. I think it's nasty. Standards of acceptable behaviour are based on opinion. Opinion can't be used as a benchmark. Law is the universal benchmark.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 09:56:53 AM
I believe BL was in conversation with Martin Brunt on twitter.    He was not to know she was mentally delicate,  on the contrary she sounded by her tweets to be a very confident woman.   Her tweets were among those others that were taken from the internet.   Martin Brunt no doubt knew BL and where she lived.   Its a journalists job to confront people,  he was doing his job.   It is very unfortunate that he chose BL to confront as unknown to him she was mentally ill.   Martin Brunt said he was devastated by her death.   BL didn't have to take Martin Brunt into her home,  she didn't have to converse with him at all.   When asked why she was sending her tweets she replied 'I have a right to' or similar words,  she could have just left it at that.   BL made it quite clear in the area where she lived her views on the McCann's.

   So why not phone her up first?  Don't you think a well known TV journalist turning up with a camera crew at an ordinary member of the publics house might be intimidating?  She was not a TV personality or head of some large organisation or politician with a press office that was used to dealing with the press.

Why not give her the chance to engage some representation or at least advice from family members before plastering her all over the nations media?  Why did Brunt not try and arrange a meeting with and a few of these 'trolls'? You say he didn't know she was ill, so then maybe he should have done better research and not put her in the such a David and Goliath scenario up against the entire press. It was a very bad judgement on his part.

   
 

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 09:59:39 AM
It's obvious that people have different opinions on what is 'nasty'. Some think its nasty to criticise the McCann's childcare arrangements. I think it's not. Some think it's OK to make fun of policemen in another country. I think it's nasty. Standards of acceptable behaviour are based on opinion. Opinion can't be used as a benchmark. Law is the universal benchmark.

In the case of Brenda no laws were broken so in pursuit of a story sky news were certainly lacking in what they would describe as "in the public interest".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 10:01:20 AM
   So why not phone her up first?  Don't you think a well known TV journalist turning up with a camera crew at an ordinary member of the publics house might be intimidating?  She was not a TV personality or head of some large organisation or politician with a press office that was used to dealing with the press.

Why not give her the chance to engage some representation or at least advice from family members before plastering her all over the nations media?  Why did Brunt not try and arrange a meeting with and a few of these 'trolls'? You say he didn't know she was ill, so then maybe he should have done better research and not put her in the such a David and Goliath scenario up against the entire press. It was a very bad judgement on his part.

   
 
Do you think the media considered the possible fragile mental state of Kate McCann before going to print with their outrageous lies?  Where's your anger at those news stories?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 10:03:00 AM
Do you think the media considered the possible fragile mental state of Kate McCann before going to print with their outrageous lies?  Where's your anger at those news stories?

Start a new thread?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:04:51 AM
I am talking about the principle of alerting the media to perceived injustices or criminal behaviour.   You either believe in the right of any individual to go to the media with their concerns when the police seem disinterested, and in the right of the media to decide whether or not what has been brought to them is worthy of reporting, or you don't - whether it's a big tragic case like Hillsborough in which police failings seemed to be brushed under the carper by a police force closing ranks and protecting its own,  or the sustained and lengthy campaign of a bunch of online anonymous commentators who use social media to intimidate, mock, deride, insinuate, threaten, accuse and spread lies about the family of a missing child and anyone associated with them, including their supporters. Phew!  Long sentence.  Sorry about that.


Can you not see that all those things you describe come under the banner of freedom of speech, except 'threaten' - but Brenda Leyland did not threaten anyone and the police did not find evidence of any threats in the dossier.
 
  This is a completely different matter than Hillsborough where people died and family wanted it investigating properly. You seem to be saying that what Brenda is on a par with the Hillsborough cover up and refer to it as a 'case'.
  It was not a case, it was someone's opinions, no crime was committed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:11:35 AM
Do you think the media considered the possible fragile mental state of Kate McCann before going to print with their outrageous lies?  Where's your anger at those news stories?

What lies exactly?  Is criticism lies?  As was determined in the Supreme Court ruling in 2017, the McCanns, through Kate's book and voluntarily engagements with the press on various stories and interviews, were complicit in bringing criticism to themselves.

  This really for me is about balance. The McCanns, suspects in a high profile crime, had a P.R. spokesman to engage and field the media, help from politicians etc. Opportunity to engage lawyers backed by a large 'fund'.   What did Brenda Leyland have at hand when Brunt decided to make an example of her?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 10:15:15 AM

Can you not see that all those things you describe come under the banner of freedom of speech, except 'threaten' - but Brenda Leyland did not threaten anyone and the police did not find evidence of any threats in the dossier.
 
  This is a completely different matter than Hillsborough where people died and family wanted it investigating properly. You seem to be saying that what Brenda is on a par with the Hillsborough cover up and refer to it as a 'case'.
  It was not a case, it was someone's opinions, no crime was committed.
No I am certainly not saying that what Brenda did is on a par with Hillsborough, I am talking about a princple, the freedom to go to the press with your concerns when the police seem disinterested - it is then up to the media whether they do anything with the information.  If you have a beef it seems to be with Sky, not the person or people who compiled the dossier, unless you think the act of sending information to the media about activities to the press whether technically illegal or not should be outlawed?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:16:36 AM
Quote
In a letter to the campaigners, Leicestershire Police Assistant Chief Constable Roger Bannister said: "While finding that much of the material was extremely distasteful and unpleasant in nature, it was determined that none of the messages/postings constituted a prosecutable offence."

https://news.sky.com/story/mccann-trolls-police-wont-take-action-10361261 (https://news.sky.com/story/mccann-trolls-police-wont-take-action-10361261)
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 10:21:06 AM
28 seconds in

"They are considering a whole file".

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:22:38 AM
No I am certainly not saying that what Brenda did is on a par with Hillsborough, I am talking about a princple, the freedom to go to the press with your concerns when the police seem disinterested - it is then up to the media whether they do anything with the information.  If you have a beef it seems to be with Sky, not the person or people who compiled the dossier, unless you think the act of sending information to the media about activities to the press whether technically illegal or not should be outlawed?

No offence but I think it's a really poor choice to use Hillsborough to illustrate this principle.

   Hillsborough was a tragedy where many people died and the inquest was a whitewash, the 'Troll Dossier' was a case of members of the public trying to police the free speech of other members of the public who were giving opinions on other members of the public. No comparison IMO.

 The person/s who compiled the dossier should be done for wasting police time imo!

   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 10:25:18 AM
Why shouldn't have B Leyland expected the same as Sir C?

Quote
Mr Justice Mann said a suspect in a police investigation "has a reasonable expectation of privacy" and while Sir Cliff being investigated "might be of interest to the gossip-monger", there was not a "genuine public interest" case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44871799
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 10:33:42 AM
No I am certainly not saying that what Brenda did is on a par with Hillsborough, I am talking about a princple, the freedom to go to the press with your concerns when the police seem disinterested - it is then up to the media whether they do anything with the information.  If you have a beef it seems to be with Sky, not the person or people who compiled the dossier, unless you think the act of sending information to the media about activities to the press whether technically illegal or not should be outlawed?

Whatever actions people take consequences follow. The McCanns choose to leave their children home alone and then claimed a child was abducted. If the child was abducted it's reasonable to argue that being left alone contributed to her abduction.

The dossier compilers handed their dossier to Sky News. The result was that Sky's actions contributed to the loss of a life. Those actions were triggered by being handed the dossier. Therefore it's reasonable to argue that handing over the dossier contributed to that loss of life.



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 10:36:48 AM
What lies exactly?  Is criticism lies?  As was determined in the Supreme Court ruling in 2017, the McCanns, through Kate's book and voluntarily engagements with the press on various stories and interviews, were complicit in bringing criticism to themselves.

  This really for me is about balance. The McCanns, suspects in a high profile crime, had a P.R. spokesman to engage and field the media, help from politicians etc. Opportunity to engage lawyers backed by a large 'fund'.   What did Brenda Leyland have at hand when Brunt decided to make an example of her?
Oh please.  If you're going to pretend the media didn't print outright lies about the McCanns  is there really any point in even continuing this discussion with you?

Once again your beef appears to be with the media (not the dossier compilers), who you seem to believe should treat everyone with kid gloves unless their targets have a high powered lawyer, political support, a bucket of cash and PR firm on hand.  This would no doubt be welcomed by those cowboys and shysters who get doorstepped by programmes like Watchdog, certainly.

 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 10:41:52 AM
   So why not phone her up first?  Don't you think a well known TV journalist turning up with a camera crew at an ordinary member of the publics house might be intimidating?  She was not a TV personality or head of some large organisation or politician with a press office that was used to dealing with the press.

Why not give her the chance to engage some representation or at least advice from family members before plastering her all over the nations media?  Why did Brunt not try and arrange a meeting with and a few of these 'trolls'? You say he didn't know she was ill, so then maybe he should have done better research and not put her in the such a David and Goliath scenario up against the entire press. It was a very bad judgement on his part.

   
 


That is you will have to take up with Sky news.    Sky news give a statement saying that Martin Brunt was just doing his job,  so it seems that is how they work.

How would Martin Brunt know that BL was ill?  What 'research' could he have done beforehand?

On the other hand all those tweeters tweeting abusive threats to the McCann's,  would know that he McCann's were vunerable,  their child was missing how do you think they were feeling?    Some of them were stalking the McCann's saying how they saw them and where they went,  that is so creepy.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:44:01 AM
Oh please.  If you're going to pretend the media didn't print outright lies about the McCanns  is there really any point in even continuing this discussion with you?

Once again your beef appears to be with the media (not the dossier compilers), who you seem to believe should treat everyone with kid gloves unless their targets have a high powered lawyer, political support, a bucket of cash and PR firm on hand.  This would no doubt be welcomed by those cowboys and shysters who get doorstepped by programmes like Watchdog, certainly.

  I'm not pretending anything. The McCanns engaged with the media and have pretty much been able to repeat their version of events unhindered. The media should be balanced, if McCanns can engage the media with their version of events, the media should be able to write critical pieces. Sorting out what percentage were downright lies would be another topic and a bit pointless. I said nothing about kid gloves, I'm talking about fairness and balance.

 I said up thread, I think the dossier compilers should be charged for wasting police time because they were acting as moral police on the subject of free speech.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 10:47:25 AM
No offence but I think it's a really poor choice to use Hillsborough to illustrate this principle.

   Hillsborough was a tragedy where many people died and the inquest was a whitewash, the 'Troll Dossier' was a case of members of the public trying to police the free speech of other members of the public who were giving opinions on other members of the public. No comparison IMO.

 The person/s who compiled the dossier should be done for wasting police time imo!

 
That's a good idea.  Prosecute anyone who brings their concerns to the police when the concerns don't result in a criminal investigation.  That's really going to encourage people to come forward to the police with vital information about potentially criminal activities.
And please stop wilfully misunderstanding my posts - I was talking about a principle, which can be applied to ALL cases, big and small of members of the general public taking concerns to the media in the absence of police interest.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 10:49:00 AM
  I'm not pretending anything. The McCanns engaged with the media and have pretty much been able to repeat their version of events unhindered. The media should be balanced, if McCanns can engage the media with their version of events, the media should be able to write critical pieces. Sorting out what percentage were downright lies would be another topic and a bit pointless. I said nothing about kid gloves, I'm talking about fairness and balance.

 I said up thread, I think the dossier compilers should be charged for wasting police time because they were acting as moral police on the subject of free speech.
I think that's utterly ridiculous for the reason I have given above. 

Also, if the McCanns can be criticised by the media, why can't an unmasked internet troll?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:49:18 AM

That is you will have to take up with Sky news.    Sky news give a statement saying that Martin Brunt was just doing his job,  so it seems that is how they work.

How would Martin Brunt know that BL was ill?  What 'research' could he have done beforehand?

On the other hand all those tweeters tweeting abusive threats to the McCann's,  would know that he McCann's were vunerable,  their child was missing how do you think they were feeling?    Some of them were stalking the McCann's saying how they saw them and where they went,  that is so creepy.

How many members of the public have been doorstepped for tweeting by Sky News? I don't think it's typical of how Sky news work.

re. the dossier, the police found no crimes to prosecute, doesn't really matter if it seemed 'creepy' does it?  If someone specifically threatens you, that is a crime which the police will prosecute. 

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 10:58:56 AM
That's a good idea.  Prosecute anyone who brings their concerns to the police when the concerns don't result in a criminal investigation.  That's really going to encourage people to come forward to the police with vital information about potentially criminal activities.
And please stop wilfully misunderstanding my posts - I was talking about a principle, which can be applied to ALL cases, big and small of members of the general public taking concerns to the media in the absence of police interest.

I'm not wilfully misunderstanding, members of the public being concerned about what other individuals said say online is really not in the same league as using the press to put pressure on the government for inquiries into tragic events. One is  'member of the public vs another member of the public'. One is - 'member of the public vs. large public body'. So I don't see how one principal covers them. It's your insistence only, that the two scenarios should be protected by some kind of principal.

 And the prosecution idea is just my opinion with regards to people who get in a flap over 'nasty' things said on the internet. It should never be a police matter unless specific threats are made.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 20, 2018, 11:01:53 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/safety/resources/aztopics/door-stepping.html

It didn't say doorstepping was illegal.  Do the Sky management have a policy as does the BBC. 
Then it is a decision of the editor before it is sent to air. 

Would there be the same uproar if it hadn't been aired?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 20, 2018, 11:05:26 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/safety/resources/aztopics/door-stepping.html

It didn't say doorstepping was illegal.  Do the Sky management have a policy as does the BBC. 
Then it is a decision of the editor before it is sent to air. 

Would there be the same uproar if it hadn't been aired?



Seeing its the Brenda Leyland thread,then you must be referring to that,hindsight Rob and it can't be answered imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 11:09:41 AM
I'm not wilfully misunderstanding, members of the public being concerned about what other individuals said say online is really not in the same league as using the press to put pressure on the government for inquiries into tragic events. One is  'member of the public vs another member of the public'. One is - 'member of the public vs. large public body'. So I don't see how one principal covers them. It's your insistence only, that the two scenarios should be protected by some kind of principal.

 And the prosecution idea is just my opinion with regards to people who get in a flap over 'nasty' things said on the internet. It should never be a police matter unless specific threats are made.
You ARE wilfully misunderstanding IMO - the dossier was not about one member of the public against another member of the public.  It was a compilation of dozens (hundreds?) of tweets and other social media posts made by numerous different individuals brought to the attention to the police out of (presumably) concern for the safety of a high profile couple, incidentally whose home address has been widely circulated amongst the same online group. 

What you seem to be saying is that taking your concerns to the police should be a criminal matter if the police don't view your concerns seriously.  That is utterly absurd IMO. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:11:06 AM
Did her family take any action against Sky?
Not necessarily legal action but did they express any grievance with Sky.
If I felt a family member had committed suicide because of the behaviour of a television channel, I would certainly make my opinion known.
But perhaps the family knew her better than any of us and perhaps because she had attempted suicide before, they were aware perhaps that it was much more complex than any of us would know.

Or perhaps most individuals don’t necessarily feel it dignified to go running to the press every time they feel they have been slighted ? Perhaps they contacted Sky privately ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:17:08 AM
Does behaviour have to be criminal before it is deemed wrong?

Isn’t that an objective opinion ? I think killing animals for their meat is wrong but it certainly isn’t criminal.

I wonder if we looked into someone supporters background we’d find the same mental health issues that beset BL? Do you think that even though they tweeted day in, day out about the calumny of Amaral’s behaviour that they’s be a danger to his wellbeing ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:20:29 AM
So if you read continuing threatening and nasty posts against a named person who were themselves unaware of these threats, you would deem these posts as unimportant just because the person being threatened was unaware of the threats.
Just because the rules of posting on social media are so futile does not make it acceptable to post  hate!

Did BL ever threaten the McCanns ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:22:14 AM
The people who compiled the dossier did just that - compile a dossier.  There's no law against it.  There is no law against sending it to the media, it's up to the media if they act on it.  No one held a gun to anyone's head as far as I'm aware, nor was Brenda specifically targeted but was one of dozens of anonymous tweeters, Brunt tracked down her identity himself.  What exactly are you suggesting - that concerned members of the public, who are ignored by the police, should just put up with things, as the police have the final word on all matters?  Tell that to the victims of the Hillsborough disaster, to child sex grooming gangs, and thousands of other injustices that have been highlighted by the media, forcing the police to finally get their arses in gear and act.

But that’s the point. The police had not finished their investigation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 11:26:35 AM
But that’s the point. The police had not finished their investigation.
What were the timings then?  When was the dossier handed in?  When was it handed to Sky?  When did the police inform the dossier compilers that they won't taking any action? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:28:15 AM
I believe BL was in conversation with Martin Brunt on twitter.    He was not to know she was mentally delicate,  on the contrary she sounded by her tweets to be a very confident woman.   Her tweets were among those others that were taken from the internet.   Martin Brunt no doubt knew BL and where she lived.   Its a journalists job to confront people,  he was doing his job.   It is very unfortunate that he chose BL to confront as unknown to him she was mentally ill.   Martin Brunt said he was devastated by her death.   BL didn't have to take Martin Brunt into her home,  she didn't have to converse with him at all.   When asked why she was sending her tweets she replied 'I have a right to' or similar words,  she could have just left it at that.   BL made it quite clear in the area where she lived her views on the McCann's.

When did Brunt start conversing with BL ? Was it after the dossier had been handed to him ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 11:35:52 AM
How many members of the public have been doorstepped for tweeting by Sky News? I don't think it's typical of how Sky news work.

re. the dossier, the police found no crimes to prosecute, doesn't really matter if it seemed 'creepy' does it?  If someone specifically threatens you, that is a crime which the police will prosecute.

I have no idea how many members of the public have been door stepped for tweeting.    You don't understand do you,   these people were stalking the McCann's,  finding out where they went and what they did.   It only takes one person to decide to carry out a threat that had been tweeted about on line.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 11:36:25 AM
When did Brunt start conversing with BL ? Was it after the dossier had been handed to him ?

No before.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 11:40:08 AM
I have no idea how many members of the public have been door stepped for tweeting.    You don't understand do you,   these people were stalking the McCann's,  finding out where they went and what they did.   It only takes one person to decide to carry out a threat that had been tweeted about on line.
I think it was Richard Bacon who made a whole TV programme about confronting a specific troll who had relentlessly targeted him.  That was above and beyond doorstepping if I recall.  They had a meeting in which the troll was very contrite (I think, I may have made this last bit up, relying on memory).  I suppose Bacon would have been vilified for naming and shaming had the troll then gone on to kill himself. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:40:40 AM
No I am certainly not saying that what Brenda did is on a par with Hillsborough, I am talking about a princple, the freedom to go to the press with your concerns when the police seem disinterested - it is then up to the media whether they do anything with the information.  If you have a beef it seems to be with Sky, not the person or people who compiled the dossier, unless you think the act of sending information to the media about activities to the press whether technically illegal or not should be outlawed?

And if BL had been charged ? Don’t you think vilifying her on rolling news would have jeopardised any resulting court case ?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Did BL ever threaten the McCanns ?

BL belonged in a group who threatened and stalked the McCann's,  they boasted there were thousands in their group.

BL was also one of the tweeters who drove a young girl from twitter,  they said she was one of the nannies.  BL tweeted 'I bet she's scared now we know her address'   she also tweeted that the young woman was a prostitute,  I won't say what other nasty accusations she made about her.   Did BL care that this girl was probably scared that some of them would turn up at her address?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:43:25 AM
Oh please.  If you're going to pretend the media didn't print outright lies about the McCanns  is there really any point in even continuing this discussion with you?

Once again your beef appears to be with the media (not the dossier compilers), who you seem to believe should treat everyone with kid gloves unless their targets have a high powered lawyer, political support, a bucket of cash and PR firm on hand.  This would no doubt be welcomed by those cowboys and shysters who get doorstepped by programmes like Watchdog, certainly.

Do you agree with Sonia Poulton’s doorstepping of Kate and if not, why not ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 20, 2018, 11:45:30 AM
But that’s the point. The police had not finished their investigation.
Did she leave a note saying why she did it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 11:46:10 AM
And if BL had been charged ? Don’t you think vilifying her on rolling news would have jeopardised any resulting court case ?
How was she vilified exactly?  What nasty things did Martin Brunt say about her?  You could of course use the same argument about the media who vilified the McCanns, to the power of 100.  Which is worse - internet troll or child neglecter / body occulter?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 11:47:31 AM
Do you agree with Sonia Poulton’s doorstepping of Kate and if not, why not ?

Do you think Sonia Poulton was the first journalist to door step the McCann's?    The McCann's had journalists camping out the front of their house for months.   They also had the public shouting at them.


I believe Sonia Poulton is looking for recognition,  she jumped on the band wagon hopefully thinking it would make her name known.   Unfortunately no one wants to air her documentary as she won't cut BL from it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 11:48:23 AM
Do you agree with Sonia Poulton’s doorstepping of Kate and if not, why not ?
I don't agree with it, but it's not illegal and she is exercising her right as a journalist to do so.  I presume you think it was a heinous thing to do?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:48:39 AM
What were the timings then?  When was the dossier handed in?  When was it handed to Sky?  When did the police inform the dossier compilers that they won't taking any action?

I believe the public announcement from the police re: action being taken is further up the thread and was given some time after the Sky debacle.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:50:00 AM
No before.

How do you know ? Do you know when the dossier was handed to Sky ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:51:51 AM
I think it was Richard Bacon who made a whole TV programme about confronting a specific troll who had relentlessly targeted him.  That was above and beyond doorstepping if I recall.  They had a meeting in which the troll was very contrite (I think, I may have made this last bit up, relying on memory).  I suppose Bacon would have been vilified for naming and shaming had the troll then gone on to kill himself.

I think if he wanted some real action to be taken lawfully he should not have done it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
BL belonged in a group who threatened and stalked the McCann's,  they boasted there were thousands in their group.

BL was also one of the tweeters who drove a young girl from twitter,  they said she was one of the nannies.  BL tweeted 'I bet she's scared now we know her address'   she also tweeted that the young woman was a prostitute,  I won't say what other nasty accusations she made about her.   Did BL care that this girl was probably scared that some of them would turn up at her address?

I seem to remember supporters tweeting that they knew BL personal details.

TBH it’s much of a muchness. They were all taking part in rather bizarre behaviour but afaia it was lawful.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:57:52 AM
How was she vilified exactly?  What nasty things did Martin Brunt say about her?  You could of course use the same argument about the media who vilified the McCanns, to the power of 100.  Which is worse - internet troll or child neglecter / body occulter?

Yes you could say that but BL didn’t invite the media into her life. The McCanns had a full retinue of legal support. It’s not comparable.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 12:01:01 PM
I don't agree with it, but it's not illegal and she is exercising her right as a journalist to do so.  I presume you think it was a heinous thing to do?

Yes I think it was absolutely wrong.

So if you don’t agree with Kate being doorstepped you must feel the same about BL. Thank you for the clarification.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 12:46:52 PM

A Question.
If you were aware of intimidating posts, hate posts etc being made against a named family and this was continuing week after week.
What would you do?
And if you chose to do nothing, how would you feel if one of these posters did carry out their threats.

I know of a young girl who hanged herself because of continuing social media intimidation.

The correct procedure is to report the user to the social media platform involved and to the police if necessary.  Sky News and Brunt had no business doing what they did, it was a cowardly thing to do just to create a story.  It is very noticeable that they don't approach hard criminals in the street but soft targets like pensioners.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 12:52:32 PM
I have no idea how many members of the public have been door stepped for tweeting.    You don't understand do you,   these people were stalking the McCann's,  finding out where they went and what they did.   It only takes one person to decide to carry out a threat that had been tweeted about on line.

You don't seem to understand - The thread is about Brenda Leyland. Not the others that might have stalked the McCanns.

   Funnily enough Brunt went after Brenda rather than these 'others' that we are told issued death threats and engaged in stalking behaviour worse than hers. Then the police found there were no threats or stalking to prosecute. Why do you think that was? probably because there were no credible threats.
   Wishing someone would suffer or saying you hate someone is not the same as credible threats, after all Kate McCann has done the same on a public platform.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 20, 2018, 12:53:35 PM
No offence but I think it's a really poor choice to use Hillsborough to illustrate this principle.

   Hillsborough was a tragedy where many people died and the inquest was a whitewash, the 'Troll Dossier' was a case of members of the public trying to police the free speech of other members of the public who were giving opinions on other members of the public. No comparison IMO.

 The person/s who compiled the dossier should be done for wasting police time imo!

 

Good post.
I concur.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 01:01:03 PM
That's the problem.
It would seem posting nasty and abusive posts is not a crime.

Neither is publishing a book referring to a policeman as a f....ing tosser three times. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 20, 2018, 01:06:52 PM
You ARE wilfully misunderstanding IMO - the dossier was not about one member of the public against another member of the public.  It was a compilation of dozens (hundreds?) of tweets and other social media posts made by numerous different individuals brought to the attention to the police out of (presumably) concern for the safety of a high profile couple, incidentally whose home address has been widely circulated amongst the same online group. 

What you seem to be saying is that taking your concerns to the police should be a criminal matter if the police don't view your concerns seriously.  That is utterly absurd IMO.

If the McCanns did not read reports about them why do others take offence on their behalf?   Brenda did wat she did aired her views, perhaps not to supporters liking, but the suppoters do not have the moral high ground on disgraceful behaviour. SOME WOULD ARGUE  the Parents of MBM, acted disgracefully in the treatment of their daughter- leaving her alone after she complained to them, set up a company, slagged of police, community  and the countries Judiciary. and the supporters followed like sheep.  Brendas life and death had no impact on them whatsoever.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 01:08:30 PM
The correct procedure is to report the user to the social media platform involved and to the police if necessary.  Sky News and Brunt had no business doing what they did, it was a cowardly thing to do just to create a story.  It is very noticeable that they don't approach hard criminals in the street but soft targets like pensioners.


At the risk of fuelling one sceptics erroneous notion that I have knowledge of the dossier contents, I will add my thoughts..
Perhaps individual threats etc had been reported to the social media platforms.
Perhaps individual threats etc had been reported to the police.

The threats continue even to this day, and perhaps the people who compiled the dossier felt that if many of these posts were detailed and given to the police, some form of caution would be given.
As previously stated, I see no wrong in presenting evidence of concern to the media.
And as previously stated  the presentation of this evidence is outwith the control of those who were involved in the compilation of the dossier.

Can anyone answer my question?
I genuinely don't know that if a member of the public is stopped by a TV crew and asked questions which cause unease, can that person ask or demand that the footage be not shown.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 01:14:57 PM
You ARE wilfully misunderstanding IMO - the dossier was not about one member of the public against another member of the public.  It was a compilation of dozens (hundreds?) of tweets and other social media posts made by numerous different individuals brought to the attention to the police out of (presumably) concern for the safety of a high profile couple, incidentally whose home address has been widely circulated amongst the same online group. 

What you seem to be saying is that taking your concerns to the police should be a criminal matter if the police don't view your concerns seriously.  That is utterly absurd IMO.

   The dossier was initiated by members of the public against other members of the public. We were given the impression that there were dangerous threats in there and that all the people mentioned were rabid '[ censored word ]s' out for blood and issuing threats. Who told us all this about the dossier? - the people that hawked it to the press. It doesn't matter how many people were in it, they weren't doing anything unlawful. If anything only a handful were doing anything remotely questionable in legal terms. This is in no way comparable to, or could be the same in principle as members of the public trying to get justice from a large public body. With that I shall leave this particular discussion if you don't mind.

Vertigo -  the prosecuted thing was really an aside, I suppose I should have put some kind of international symbol for 'flippant' next to it but I couldn't find one ?{)(**  Having said that I do believe people running to the police over nasty stuff said on the internet is wasting police time.  Credible threats and actual harassment are different than 'nasty' opinions and are already defined in law.  There's no need to go to the media before the police have looked at it either.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 01:21:19 PM
You don't seem to understand - The thread is about Brenda Leyland. Not the others that might have stalked the McCanns.

   Funnily enough Brunt went after Brenda rather than these 'others' that we are told issued death threats and engaged in stalking behaviour worse than hers. Then the police found there were no threats or stalking to prosecute. Why do you think that was? probably because there were no credible threats.
   Wishing someone would suffer or saying you hate someone is not the same as credible threats, after all Kate McCann has done the same on a public platform.

I believe Brunt went after Brenda because he had been conversing with her on twitter,  she give her real name away.    Brenda's tweets were among those others who had been stalking and threatening the McCann's.


Credible threats were made,   they threatened to kidnap the twins,  to kidnap the McCann's and beat the truth out of them among other threats.   


IMO the police didn't procecute because BL committed suicide.    Suddenly they deleted their tweets and stopped the threats.   Now though things are starting to go back to how it was.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 01:22:53 PM

At the risk of fuelling one sceptics erroneous notion that I have knowledge of the dossier contents, I will add my thoughts..
Perhaps individual threats etc had been reported to the social media platforms.
Perhaps individual threats etc had been reported to the police.

The threats continue even to this day, and perhaps the people who compiled the dossier felt that if many of these posts were detailed and given to the police, some form of caution would be given.
As previously stated, I see no wrong in presenting evidence of concern to the media.
And as previously stated  the presentation of this evidence is outwith the control of those who were involved in the compilation of the dossier.

Can anyone answer my question?
I genuinely don't know that if a member of the public is stopped by a TV crew and asked questions which cause unease, can that person ask or demand that the footage be not shown.

 You can't object to footage being broadcast when it's live can you?

As for the 'threats'.  Brenda made no threats. No credible threats were made or the police would have taken action, they didn't. Saying you want someone to 'burn' or joking about it is not a prosecutable offence...unless people here think every time a driver shouts at another driver in his car or someone says 'I'll kill' my boss, kid, friend whatever they should be arrested.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 20, 2018, 01:26:21 PM
Neither is publishing a book referring to a policeman as a f....ing tosser three times.


And instrumental in sending a media pack to hound RM and his elderly mother, the staff of MW and neighbours for 'gossip' they were also instrumental in the vilifying the police in particular Sr Amaral who also took a media beating- the media were directed away and then only had to print .nice things with nice pictures and nice fluffy stories about how wonderful their family life was...

Kate did say she wanted Amaral to suffer.... nice one Kate!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 01:33:27 PM
What lies exactly?  Is criticism lies?  As was determined in the Supreme Court ruling in 2017, the McCanns, through Kate's book and voluntarily engagements with the press on various stories and interviews, were complicit in bringing criticism to themselves.

  This really for me is about balance. The McCanns, suspects in a high profile crime, had a P.R. spokesman to engage and field the media, help from politicians etc. Opportunity to engage lawyers backed by a large 'fund'.   What did Brenda Leyland have at hand when Brunt decided to make an example of her?

Exactly, it was cowardly and that's why Brunt disappeared for so long afterwards. News organisations should not be going after vulnerable people and that is why Jonathan Levy and Martin Brunt were so very out of order in what they did. This was trial by media pure and simple which on this occasion went up in flames in their faces when a woman died.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 01:35:06 PM
I believe Brunt went after Brenda because he had been conversing with her on twitter,  she give her real name away.    Brenda's tweets were among those others who had been stalking and threatening the McCann's.


Credible threats were made,   they threatened to kidnap the twins,  to kidnap the McCann's and beat the truth out of them among other threats.   


IMO the police didn't procecute because BL committed suicide.    Suddenly they deleted their tweets and stopped the threats.   Now though things are starting to go back to how it was.

It should be made clear it's your opinion they were credible.  The police issued a statement saying they didn't find anything unlawful.  The 'threat' about the twins was relayed from McCann's friend of the family in the libel court. It was therefore his interpretation of the forum conversation that the threats were credible.

The police go by the law which says that threats must be credible and have some degree of being likely to be carried out, people letting off steam and making bad taste jokes is not considered unlawful.

   
Quote
Leicestershire Police Assistant Chief Constable Roger Bannister said: "While finding that much of the material was extremely distasteful and unpleasant in nature, it was determined that none of the messages/postings constituted a prosecutable offence."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 01:39:32 PM
I believe Brunt went after Brenda because he had been conversing with her on twitter,  she give her real name away.    Brenda's tweets were among those others who had been stalking and threatening the McCann's.


Credible threats were made,   they threatened to kidnap the twins,  to kidnap the McCann's and beat the truth out of them among other threats.   


IMO the police didn't procecute because BL committed suicide.    Suddenly they deleted their tweets and stopped the threats.   Now though things are starting to go back to how it was.


Somehow these threats are deemed to be acceptable in the name of free speech and because these threats are on social media and not voiced in the street.
Strange!

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 01:42:06 PM
It should be made clear it's your opinion they were credible.  The police issued a statement saying they didn't find anything unlawful.  The 'threat' about the twins was relayed from McCann's friend of the family in the libel court. It was therefore his interpretation of the forum conversation that the threats were credible.

The police go by the law which says that threats must be credible and have some degree of being likely to be carried out, people letting off steam and making bad taste jokes is not considered unlawful.

 
#

So you think it was ok for them to tweet threats?   Threats against innocent children?   What if one of them actually acted on it?

They were obviously stopped by the process,  they deleted their tweets and stopped being so vicious,  they weren't prosecuted but that doesn't mean the police didn't caution them.  I think some were banned from twitter too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 01:43:27 PM

At the risk of fuelling one sceptics erroneous notion that I have knowledge of the dossier contents, I will add my thoughts..
Perhaps individual threats etc had been reported to the social media platforms.
Perhaps individual threats etc had been reported to the police.

The threats continue even to this day, and perhaps the people who compiled the dossier felt that if many of these posts were detailed and given to the police, some form of caution would be given.
As previously stated, I see no wrong in presenting evidence of concern to the media.
And as previously stated  the presentation of this evidence is outwith the control of those who were involved in the compilation of the dossier.

Can anyone answer my question?
I genuinely don't know that if a member of the public is stopped by a TV crew and asked questions which cause unease, can that person ask or demand that the footage be not shown.

We don't know what was given to Sky News and Martin Brunt. I suspect that BL's private address was also given to them thus why they were able to turn up on her doorstep unannounced.

The media don't require permission before publishing photos or video.  They are bound by the journalists charter but we have all seen how much that is worth as a result of the failed Leveson Enquiry.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 20, 2018, 01:44:24 PM

Somehow these threats are deemed to be acceptable in the name of free speech and because these threats are on social media and not voiced in the street.
Strange!


I know it beggars belief doesn't it,  aren't they changing the law though, I think I read something about the law regarding tweeting.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 01:45:50 PM
We don't know what was given to Sky News and Martin Brunt. I suspect that BL's private address was also given to them thus why they were able to turn up on her doorstep unannounced.

I believe she engaged in Twitter conversations with Martin Blunt or had at  least made some approach to him on Twitter.
It would be very easy for him to find.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 01:47:46 PM

I know it beggars belief doesn't it,  aren't they changing the law though, I think I read something about the law regarding tweeting.

I hope so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 02:02:36 PM
I believe she engaged in Twitter conversations with Martin Blunt or had at  least made some approach to him on Twitter.
It would be very easy for him to find.

I dont see how as Twitter users are anonymous.  I think someone who knew her snitched on her.

Brenda did have a right to due process and that right was denied to her. I think Sky News did very wrong and got off very lightly.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 02:07:51 PM

Somehow these threats are deemed to be acceptable in the name of free speech and because these threats are on social media and not voiced in the street.
Strange!

I thought it was just Portuguese law which people had trouble understanding. It seems some find English law equally mystifying.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 20, 2018, 02:14:39 PM
It is very noticable that supporters on here are talking about other people who made threats .  This is about Brenda and the treatment of her by sneaky cowardly supporter trolls, and the consequenses of that.

Brenda did not make threats about the McCanns or to kill twins so please refrain from trying to tie her into that.

why not start a thread about 'nasty trolls'...and not use this thread. Don't forget to condem supporter trolls to make is all even and such.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 02:22:57 PM
28 seconds in

"They are considering a whole file".


If you watch the beginning of that video you will see that Brenda answered NO three times when asked for an interview but Brunt pushed it.  Despicable man.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 20, 2018, 02:37:27 PM
If you watch the beginning of that video you will see that Brenda answered NO three times when asked for an interview but Brunt pushed it.  Despicable man.
brunt ran away from the world media for  weeks afterwoods    too  didnt he??
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 20, 2018, 02:48:41 PM
brunt ran away from the world media for  weeks afterwoods    too  didnt he??

Yes, like the dossier complilers, he couldn't handle the  negative 'media' en masse. poor wee love
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 02:58:16 PM
I think that's utterly ridiculous for the reason I have given above. 

Also, if the McCanns can be criticised by the media, why can't an unmasked internet troll?

Because the former by their own actions courted the media whereas BL didn't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 03:17:21 PM
I believe Brunt went after Brenda because he had been conversing with her on twitter,  she give her real name away.    Brenda's tweets were among those others who had been stalking and threatening the McCann's.


Credible threats were made,   they threatened to kidnap the twins,  to kidnap the McCann's and beat the truth out of them among other threats.   


IMO the police didn't procecute because BL committed suicide.    Suddenly they deleted their tweets and stopped the threats.   Now though things are starting to go back to how it was.

Again Lace I will ask. How do you know that Brunt started conversing with BL before Sky received the dossier ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 03:22:51 PM

Somehow these threats are deemed to be acceptable in the name of free speech and because these threats are on social media and not voiced in the street.
Strange!

BL didn’t threaten the McCanns so on this thread your point is moot. However if the McCanns were being threatened by others why didn’t the supporters pass on that information to the McCanns or their representatives? Surely if the complaint came from those threatened it would have to be looked at more closely by any police force it was reported to ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 03:33:29 PM
Again Lace I will ask. How do you know that Brunt started conversing with BL before Sky received the dossier ?

The dossier was sent to Sky News before Brunt started following Brenda on twitter.

Before her encounter with Brunt, Leyland was a keen Sky News viewer. On 29 September, five days before she died, Leyland tweeted that Brunt had started following her on Twitter. This was the day she stopped tweeting and appears to also have been when the @Sweepyface account was deleted.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/10/enhanced/webdr04/longform-original-7415-1412605501-3.jpg?downsize=1200:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 03:39:45 PM

Somehow these threats are deemed to be acceptable in the name of free speech and because these threats are on social media and not voiced in the street.
Strange!

They weren't credible threats. The people who compiled the dossier had the opinion that they might be, the police didn't agree. The law says a threat has to have a reasonable chance of being carried out to be prosecutable.

   If you don't agree then your standard would also be applied to Kate McCann who said Amaral "deserves to be miserable and feel fear'"   ..... its an opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 03:42:41 PM
I thought it was just Portuguese law which people had trouble understanding. It seems some find English law equally mystifying.


Fortunately I have no familiarity with English law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 03:44:50 PM
Because the former by their own actions courted the media whereas BL didn't.
So only people who “court the media” should be allowed to be criticised by the media?  Again, what utter nonsense IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 03:47:23 PM
They weren't credible threats. The people who compiled the dossier had the opinion that they might be, the police didn't agree. The law says a threat has to have a reasonable chance of being carried out to be prosecutable.

   If you don't agree then your standard would also be applied to Kate McCann who said Amaral "deserves to be miserable and feel fear'"   ..... its an opinion.

And you can guarantee that the threats made this week are not credible?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 03:55:49 PM
Exactly what is it all you angry Brenda supporters want?  For people to not be allowed to contact the media with their concerns about online threats and abuse?  For the media not to be allowed to report on individuals who have been unmasked as internet trolls or online abusers?  What?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 03:56:29 PM
Before her encounter with Brunt, Leyland was a keen Sky News viewer. On 29 September, five days before she died, Leyland tweeted that Brunt had started following her on Twitter. This was the day she stopped tweeting and appears to also have been when the @Sweepyface account was deleted.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/10/enhanced/webdr04/longform-original-7415-1412605501-3.jpg?downsize=1200:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto

The point being did Brunt start following BL before the dossier was presented to Sky. Lace seems to be of the opinion that it was before.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 03:58:33 PM
Exactly what is it all you angry Brenda supporters want?  For people to not be allowed to contact the media with their concerns about online threats and abuse?  For the media not to be allowed to report on individuals who have been unmasked as internet trolls or online abusers?  What?

Personally I want reports of threats and abuse passed on to the police dealt with by the police. What is so bizarre about that ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 04:02:13 PM
Personally I want reports of threats and abuse passed on to the police dealt with by the police. What is so bizarre about that ?
I believe that is what happened in this case too, but you have failed to answer my question (no surprise there of course!)
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 04:04:42 PM
Did any of Brend’s supporters think to report the dossier compilers and Sky News to the police for “causing the death” of a pensioner?  If so what was the response?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 04:05:45 PM
I believe that is what happened in this case too, but you have failed to answer my question (no surprise there of course!)

This is what you asked  ‘Exactly what is it all you angry Brenda supporters want? and I told you. How is that avoiding your question?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 20, 2018, 04:14:05 PM
Right for all of the supporters saying Brenda gave her name to Martin Brunt.


No she did not. That was give by the dossier gatherers.  Here is my cite

A dossier compiled by a third party came into Martin Brunt's hands. He was not willing to say where the dossier had come from.

Martin Brunt was asked how did he make the connection between the dossier and @sweepyface as she was not named and there was no indication of a name and address.

One of his sources told him that she was Brenda Leyland and Leicester(shire/area?)

Brunt said he had done basic Internet searches and found two Brenda Leyland's in Leicester.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Martin Brunt was given her name and her county.  Hardly he found her all by himself. Even he has said that he only did basic internet searches to find. He was given her on a plate IMO.

Did Martin Brunt ever converse with Brenda on twitter. I have read her tweets and seen no replies from Brunty and a mention that he was following her.

So IMO unless someone can provide cites there is no evidence that Brenda had any idea that Martin Brunt was taking any interest in her apart from following her on twitter.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 04:20:03 PM
Right for all of the supporters saying Brenda gave her name to Martin Brunt.


No she did not. That was give by the dossier gatherers.  Here is my cite

A dossier compiled by a third party came into Martin Brunt's hands. He was not willing to say where the dossier had come from.

Martin Brunt was asked how did he make the connection between the dossier and @sweepyface as she was not named and there was no indication of a name and address.

One of his sources told him that she was Brenda Leyland and Leicester(shire/area?)

Brunt said he had done basic Internet searches and found two Brenda Leyland's in Leicester.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Martin Brunt was given her name and her county.  Hardly he found her all by himself. Even he has said that he only did basic internet searches to find. He was given her on a plate IMO.

Did Martin Brunt ever converse with Brenda on twitter. I have read her tweets and seen no replies from Brunty and a mention that he was following her.

So IMO unless someone can provide cites there is no evidence that Brenda had any idea that Martin Brunt was taking any interest in her apart from following her on twitter.

If BL’s name was specifically given to Brunt by the compilers of the dossier then they are indeed complicit in her death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 04:21:06 PM
Right for all of the supporters saying Brenda gave her name to Martin Brunt.


No she did not. That was give by the dossier gatherers.  Here is my cite

A dossier compiled by a third party came into Martin Brunt's hands. He was not willing to say where the dossier had come from.

Martin Brunt was asked how did he make the connection between the dossier and @sweepyface as she was not named and there was no indication of a name and address.

One of his sources told him that she was Brenda Leyland and Leicester(shire/area?)

Brunt said he had done basic Internet searches and found two Brenda Leyland's in Leicester.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Martin Brunt was given her name and her county.  Hardly he found her all by himself. Even he has said that he only did basic internet searches to find. He was given her on a plate IMO.

Did Martin Brunt ever converse with Brenda on twitter. I have read her tweets and seen no replies from Brunty and a mention that he was following her.

So IMO unless someone can provide cites there is no evidence that Brenda had any idea that Martin Brunt was taking any interest in her apart from following her on twitter.

Thank you Sunny.  The first time Brenda had any direct contact with Brunt and Sky was when the idiots turned up in the street outside her home.  He was there waiting to ambush her.  He asked for an interview, she repeatedly said no but he carried on like a fox after a rabbit.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 04:33:09 PM
If BL’s name was specifically given to Brunt by the compilers of the dossier then they are indeed complicit in her death.

A harsh reality but one all the same.  Had they not targeted her things could have been oh so different. A statement by her son Benjamin who lived in Los Angeles was read out at the inquest which said that Brunt's unwelcome visit and the exposure on national TV  "left him in no doubt was the final straw which pushed my mum to do what she did. She was broken ... destroyed".

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 04:34:59 PM
This is what you asked  ‘Exactly what is it all you angry Brenda supporters want? and I told you. How is that avoiding your question?
I meant as a result of Brenda’s sad demise.  What do you want to happen?  A change in the law to prevent this happening again?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 04:37:34 PM
If BL’s name was specifically given to Brunt by the compilers of the dossier then they are indeed complicit in her death.
Isn’t being complicit in someone ‘s death a criminal matter?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 20, 2018, 04:43:05 PM
Isn’t being complicit in someone ‘s death a criminal matter?

You don't seem to care that I have shown the dossier was given with names and at least part addresses to Martin Brunt and I believe the Daily Mail too.

So it wasn't just a random list of tweets with usernames was it. It was a full dossier with the information on all of those who had posted anything that the dossier gathers though interesting.

Martin Brunt was given the ENTIRE story by an unnamed group of McCann supporters.  The question is why chose an elderly lady from Burton Overy who had made no threats to the McCanns. Who suggested Brenda to Martin Brunt.  Was it the dossier gatherers?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 04:45:22 PM
I meant as a result of Brenda’s sad demise.  What do you want to happen?  A change in the law to prevent this happening again?  If not, why not?

What change in the law would you suggest ? That old busybodies be forced to go to lunch clubs and knitting bees to stop them taking the law into their own hands ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 04:47:50 PM
You don't seem to care that I have shown the dossier was given with names and at least part addresses to Martin Brunt and I believe the Daily Mail too.

So it wasn't just a random list of tweets with usernames was it. It was a full dossier with the information on all of those who had posted anything that the dossier gathers though interesting.

Martin Brunt was given the ENTIRE story by an unnamed group of McCann supporters.  The question is why chose an elderly lady from Burton Overy who had made no threats to the McCanns. Who suggested Brenda to Martin Brunt.  Was it the dossier gatherers?

It would appear so. I believe Brenda was chosen chiefly due to her proximity to the McCanns home.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 04:48:42 PM
You don't seem to care that I have shown the dossier was given with names and at least part addresses to Martin Brunt and I believe the Daily Mail too.

So it wasn't just a random list of tweets with usernames was it. It was a full dossier with the information on all of those who had posted anything that the dossier gathers though interesting.

Martin Brunt was given the ENTIRE story by an unnamed group of McCann supporters.  The question is why chose an elderly lady from Burton Overy who had made no threats to the McCanns. Who suggested Brenda to Martin Brunt.  Was it the dossier gatherers?
I have no idea, nor any idea why you replied as you did to the question I asked.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 04:52:05 PM
What change in the law would you suggest ? That old busybodies be forced to go to lunch clubs and knitting bees to stop them taking the law into their own hands ?
Do you have a pathological hatred of old people by any chance?  You do seem to enjoy trotting out the stereotypes.  I take it from your response then that you are satisfied with the laws as they stand and that should allow any concerned members of the public  to compile dossiers on any activity they consider worth further investigation and pass it on to the police and/or media.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 04:53:01 PM
I believe she had been estranged from her own son for quite some time.
This must have caused her huge heartache.
She had attempted suicide before.

She seemed a sad lady who filled her time in obsessive tweeting and posting about the family of a missing child.
I've googled her name and many of her tweets appeared, one in particular about how she hates the McCanns.
Such a pity that she couldn't find a more worthwhile cause.
All very sad.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 20, 2018, 04:57:01 PM
And you can guarantee that the threats made this week are not credible?

What has that got to do with the unfair treatment of Brenda Leyland, who didn't make any threats?

 I like anybody can read the law guidelines on what is a credible threat and what isn't. If you know of any credible threats against anyone and they really concern you, you can report them to police. Just don't expect them to treat online insults or opinions as a crime.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 05:01:39 PM
I believe she had been estranged from her own son for quite some time.
This must have caused her huge heartache.
She had attempted suicide before.

She seemed a sad lady who filled her time in obsessive tweeting and posting about the family of a missing child.
I've googled her name and many of her tweets appeared, one in particular about how she hates the McCanns.
Such a pity that she couldn't find a more worthwhile cause.
All very sad.

The only way the McCanns would have known about her tweets directed at them would be if they went searching for them or were told.  She was harmless really and didn't deserve what happened to her.  She was to be pitied more than anything imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:01:55 PM
Do you have a pathological hatred of old people by any chance?  You do seem to enjoy trotting out the stereotypes.  I take it from your response then that you are satisfied with the laws as they stand and that should allow any concerned members of the public  to compile dossiers on any activity they consider worth further investigation and pass it on to the police and/or media.

I believe, as I have consistently said, that any information passed on to the police should be dealt with by the police and until a decision on their part is made there should be no part played by the media. If BL had been found to have performed an unlawful act then I would have had no issue with the involvement of the media but that  wasn’t allowed to happen. The reason why we can only guessed at.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 20, 2018, 05:02:51 PM
Right for all of the supporters saying Brenda gave her name to Martin Brunt.


No she did not. That was give by the dossier gatherers.  Here is my cite

A dossier compiled by a third party came into Martin Brunt's hands. He was not willing to say where the dossier had come from.

Martin Brunt was asked how did he make the connection between the dossier and @sweepyface as she was not named and there was no indication of a name and address.

One of his sources told him that she was Brenda Leyland and Leicester(shire/area?)

Brunt said he had done basic Internet searches and found two Brenda Leyland's in Leicester.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Martin Brunt was given her name and her county.  Hardly he found her all by himself. Even he has said that he only did basic internet searches to find. He was given her on a plate IMO.

Did Martin Brunt ever converse with Brenda on twitter. I have read her tweets and seen no replies from Brunty and a mention that he was following her.

So IMO unless someone can provide cites there is no evidence that Brenda had any idea that Martin Brunt was taking any interest in her apart from following her on twitter.


Have you considered Brunt's source for Brenda's details may have been Sonia Poulton, another Sky employee?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:03:25 PM
I believe she had been estranged from her own son for quite some time.
This must have caused her huge heartache.
She had attempted suicide before.

She seemed a sad lady who filled her time in obsessive tweeting and posting about the family of a missing child.
I've googled her name and many of her tweets appeared, one in particular about how she hates the McCanns.
Such a pity that she couldn't find a more worthwhile cause.
All very sad.

Your faux sympathy does you no credit.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:04:31 PM
The only way the McCanns would have known about her tweets directed at them would be if they went searching for them or were told.  She was harmless really and didn't deserve what happened to her.  She was to be pitied more than anything imo

Harmless but more importantly, in the eyes of the law, innocent of any wrongdoing.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 05:06:53 PM
I believe, as I have consistently said, that any information passed on to the police should be dealt with by the police and until a decision on their part is made there should be no part played by the media. If BL had been found to have performed an unlawful act then I would have had no issue with the involvement of the media but that  wasn’t allowed to happen. The reason why we can only guessed at.
So therefore do you believe the law needs to be changed, and if you belive the dossier makers are complicit in Brenda’s death are you not concerned that they have not been prosecuted for a criminal act themselves?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:07:12 PM

Have you considered Brunt's source for Brenda's details may have been Sonia Poulton, another Sky employee?

I believe SP is freelance and why in heaven’s name would she pass on BL’s details to Brunt ? Was she even aware of NL at the time ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 05:09:10 PM
Harmless but more importantly, in the eyes of the law, innocent of any wrongdoing.
But Brenda did set out to harm, to harm the reputation of at least three people using tweets to do so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:09:58 PM
So therefore do you believe the law needs to be changed, and if you belive the dossier makers are complicit in Brenda’s death are you not concerned that they have not been prosecuted for a criminal act themselves?

No the law doesn’t need to be changed. Certain individuals simply need to grow a conscience.

Did I say criminally complicit ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2018, 05:12:47 PM
The case of Brenda Leyland and the McCanns is a thoroughly modern tale of internet lawlessness

You can’t accuse a TV reporter of ‘hounding’ someone who is guilty of trolling

Grace Dent
Monday 6 October 2014 18:25

The circumstances around the death of Brenda Leyland, whose body was found in a Leicester hotel room this weekend, are all at once sad, complex, divisive and thoroughly modern.

Ms. Leyland, I cannot help but feel, is yet another victim of what I’ve termed “the internet wild west era” in which we’re living. The rules of civility are yet to be established. We’re naught but electronic guinea pigs. One man’s “troll” is another man’s prophet of truth. One woman’s systematic campaign of abuse is another woman’s brave battle to be heard.

Ms Leyland was doorstepped last week by Martin Brunt from Sky News over her alleged obsessive and relentless Twtter campaign to expose what she felt was “the truth” about Madeleine McCann’s parents Gerry and Kate.

A Twitter account by the handle @sweepyface had tweeted over 4,300 times supporting its firm - albeit incorrect - view that the McCanns are implicated nefariously in their daughter’s disappearance. The account’s contempt and anger for the McCanns was multi-faceted, inexhaustible, and at times breathtakingly unpleasant.

Mr Brunt took pains in his report to say that @sweepyface was not the worst offender. This I believe, as over many years I’ve noticed the anti-McCann conspiracy theory lobby to be some of the most furious, combative and unsettling message-propellers one might come across.

The McCann conspiracy theory is the perfect tinderbox for internet trolls. It involves a child’s disappearance, a possible paedophile bogeyman, a £2m fund with accusations of misuse, plus handily placed daft foreigners open to accusations of fecklessness and corruption. But more than this the McCann case appeals to firmly entrenched class war tensions that these evil middle class folk are able to pull strings or use their money or power to cover something up. I cannot remember blame and spite directed at Jamie Bulger’s mother or Sarah Payne’s grandparents alleging that it was flaws in their attention which had led to utter woe. In these cases, empathy and compassion were abundant.

Yet there is something about doctors eating patatas bravas within metres of sleeping children which drove Twitter accounts like @sweepyface to a bleak place. The @sweepyface account begged for attention endlessly - from like-minded people, from detractors, from journalists and from TV people. Matthew Wright received many tweets, Matin Brunt also – and with this in mind Brunt approached Ms Leyland to allot her just this - attention.

But, as I say, we’re in the wild west. While @sweepyface was desperate for exposure, Ms Leyland did not welcome it at all. While @sweepyface may have been in her element flinging around accusations, gossip and provoking ill-will, the real life Ms. Leyland met Mr Brunt’s request for a comment with a firm No and an attempt to disappear into her car.

Mr. Brunt is now being accused by some sections of “hounding” Ms. Leyland to her death. This seems extreme. Reporters have been doorstepping people and requesting answers on British television for the past 50 years. Are we now saying that in this new internet age, any person who draws attention to themselves vehemently but anonymously online is out of bounds for reporters?

Are we saying that we must accept that internet users working anonymously to spread misery are most probably mentally delicate and fuelled on their own shortcomings, so let’s leave be? Should a person's privacy be respected even if their modus operandi is disrespecting privacy? The only certainty this incident has underlined is we have no strong idea how to tackle harmful internet unpleasantness, aside from “ignore”.

There should be more help, support, understanding and escape routes offered to people living angrily behind keyboards. Their numbers are growing. In our ever web-dependent, fresh-air lacking, screen-chained world, we’re all more powerful, more superhuman behind our laptops in bed at midnight than we ever could be in real life.

And being an internet idiot, even just momentarily, is in all our sights. When we’re safely miles away from our target, we feel righteous, war-like, invincible and remorseless over our ability to wound. Ms. Leyland’s meeting with Mr Brunt was a reminder that when human beings propel anger electronically, the last thing they want is to be greeted with is a human face.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-case-of-brenda-leyland-and-the-mccanns-is-a-thoroughly-modern-tale-of-internet-lawlessness-9778262.html


"Matthew Wright received many tweets, Martin Brunt also ..."  If that is true and I have no doubt it is ... what on earth is this thread really about?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 20, 2018, 05:13:24 PM
I believe SP is freelance and why in heaven’s name would she pass on BL’s details to Brunt ? Was she even aware of NL at the time ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNJ7aDmcuG4

Note the date on the video. How did Sonia know her own details were in the dossier?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 20, 2018, 05:14:11 PM
Your faux sympathy does you no credit.


I have three sons and if I was estranged from one of them I would be heartbroken..
This must have made her very sad.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
No the law doesn’t need to be changed. Certain individuals simply need to grow a conscience.

Did I say criminally complicit ?
So you think being concerned by the unrelenting hateful campaign against the McCanns and sending a dossier about it to the media indicates a lack of conscience do you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:19:56 PM
But Brenda did set out to harm, to harm the reputation of at least three people using tweets to do so.

Catch yourself on.

https://www.femalefirst.co.uk/womens-issues/brenda-leyland-wasnt-troll-didnt-deserve-die-544755.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 05:26:06 PM
So you think being concerned by the unrelenting hateful campaign against the McCanns and sending a dossier about it to the media indicates a lack of conscience do you?

I think the dossier compilers suffered from a lack of judgement fuelled by self-importance. I think Martin Brunt showed a lack of conscience....for heaven’s sake the woman told him she had thought of suicide over the doorstepping and yet he still ran the VT.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 05:27:21 PM
Catch yourself on.

https://www.femalefirst.co.uk/womens-issues/brenda-leyland-wasnt-troll-didnt-deserve-die-544755.html
What does “catch yourself on” mean?  And what is the relevance of this article to my post? The blog even agrees that she was involved in a lot of mud slinging and could have found herself up to her neck in legal issues - what would they be then?  I am correct when I say Brenda set out to cause further harm to reputations, not least of whom was Amy Tierney’s a perfectly innocent young woman.  Do you approve of individuals being defamed in such a  manner?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 05:30:41 PM
I think the dossier compilers suffered from a lack of judgement fuelled by self-importance. I think Martin Brunt showed a lack of conscience....for heaven’s sake the woman told him she had thought of suicide over the doorstepping and yet he still ran the VT.
Martin Brunt clearly had a conscience as he professed to be devastated by her death.  I’m sure he regrets his actions, but I am glad we have established that no laws were broken, no laws need to be changed and that the dossier compilers are not complicit in Brenda’s death ( I don’t think you can be complicit in another’s death and it not be a criminal matter tbh).
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 06:13:15 PM
What does “catch yourself on” mean?  And what is the relevance of this article to my post? The blog even agrees that she was involved in a lot of mud slinging and could have found herself up to her neck in legal issues - what would they be then?  I am correct when I say Brenda set out to cause further harm to reputations, not least of whom was Amy Tierney’s a perfectly innocent young woman.  Do you approve of individuals being defamed in such a  manner?

As I have told you before a young physiotherapist with my name was threatened with having their employer contacted by a supporter. Do you approve of that kind of behaviour?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 06:18:09 PM
As I have told you before a young physiotherapist with my name was threatened with having their employer contacted by a supporter. Do you approve of that kind of behaviour?
If you are going to reply to my posts at least have the good manners to reply to my questions before posimg you own.  You answer, you ask, I answer,  easy. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
Martin Brunt clearly had a conscience as he professed to be devastated by her death.  I’m sure he regrets his actions, but I am glad we have established that no laws were broken, no laws need to be changed and that the dossier compilers are not complicit in Brenda’s death ( I don’t think you can be complicit in another’s death and it not be a criminal matter tbh).

No laws were broken and certainly not by BL or anyone included in the dossier. No laws need to be changed as the law as it stands was adequate and yes the dossier compilers are morally complicit in BL’s death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 20, 2018, 07:25:40 PM
I have no idea, nor any idea why you replied as you did to the question I asked.

Apologies Vertigo Swirl, I had a post all ready to go then I had to go out.  Sorry for replying in a different way I was just intrigued to get your answer to my new post.

As regards your question can you be complicit in someones death without breaking the law.  I have no idea but I imagine that there is case law somewhere about it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 20, 2018, 07:42:05 PM
Apologies Vertigo Swirl, I had a post all ready to go then I had to go out.  Sorry for replying in a different way I was just intrigued to get your answer to my new post.

As regards your question can you be complicit in someones death without breaking the law.  I have no idea but I imagine that there is case law somewhere about it.
The executioner flicks the switch, but he doesn't break the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2018, 07:49:51 PM
The executioner flicks the switch, but he doesn't break the law.
Oookay, the exception that proves the rule...  8((()*/
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 07:59:55 PM
The executioner flicks the switch, but he doesn't break the law.

He's not complicit in the death either because the death is lawful.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 20, 2018, 08:05:15 PM
Apologies Vertigo Swirl, I had a post all ready to go then I had to go out.  Sorry for replying in a different way I was just intrigued to get your answer to my new post.

As regards your question can you be complicit in someones death without breaking the law.  I have no idea but I imagine that there is case law somewhere about it.

One can be morally complicit with others in an endeavor which ultimately results in a death. IMO the dossier compilers were complicit with Martin Brunt and he with them in what occurred. By attempting to gain the moral high and do the rebuking, they ultimately became the ones rebuked.  Unfortunately, two wrongs do not make a right! 

Best to leave these things to the police.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 20, 2018, 08:15:56 PM
One can be morally complicit with others in an endeavor which ultimately results in a death. IMO the dossier compilers were complicit with Martin Brunt and he with them in what occurred. By attempting to gain the moral high ground they ultimately lost it because of what occurred. Unfortunately, two wrongs do not make a right!

Calling them that affords them a sense a credibilty and importance which traits they no doubt crave.
I would have thought there were more accurate descriptions.

"Dossier Compilers! ?; makes 'em sound like something from SOE or SIS..... @)(++(*
Deranged Tpots more like.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 20, 2018, 08:55:04 PM
Calling them that affords them a sense a credibilty and importance which traits they no doubt crave.
I would have thought there were more accurate descriptions.

"Dossier Compilers! ?; makes 'em sound like something from SOE or SIS..... @)(++(*
Deranged Tpots more like.

It's something they will have to carry with them to the grave.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 09:52:40 PM
It's something they will have to carry with them to the grave.

And the disapprobation of every right thinking member of their families.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 20, 2018, 09:54:29 PM
And the disapprobation of every right thinking member of their families.

One of the dossier gatherers has already fallen out with his family as I remember, but under different circumstances IMO.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 09:57:37 PM
One of the dossier gatherers has already fallen out with his family as I remember, but under different circumstances IMO.

Then it is nothing more than he deserves.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2018, 10:36:40 PM
It's something they will have to carry with them to the grave.

I don''t think it will worry them having read some of the opinions on this thread.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 10:45:05 PM
I don''t think it will worry them having read some of the opinions on this thread.

I think the desperate efforts of some to distance themselves from those who compiled the dossier belies their suppport for the dossier posted here.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 20, 2018, 11:53:31 PM
If you are going to reply to my posts at least have the good manners to reply to my questions before posimg you own.  You answer, you ask, I answer,  easy.

If Amy Tierney was defamed then it is up to her to seek a resolution.

It is interesting though that while condemning the actions of Brenda you have yet to condemn the actions of your fellow supporter.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 12:22:00 AM
Amy Tierney what is this?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 06:04:56 AM
If Amy Tierney was defamed then it is up to her to seek a resolution.

It is interesting though that while condemning the actions of Brenda you have yet to condemn the actions of your fellow supporter.

I would add an s onto supporter making it supporters Faithlilly although, I don't believe the one person who made that block of threatening posts was a McCann supporter just a real troll, unlike Brenda Leyland.

I have seen the text of tweets posted by a couple of supporters regarding Brenda Leyland and their glee at finding her and her sons boxer dog so knew who she was.    They had clearly been looking for her for a while IMO.  From my reading this looked like a concerted effort to name and shame so to speak, as many sceptics as possible without caring who they were or what they had posted.

Robittybob, Amy Tierney was a member of the Ocean Club staff and I think Brenda Leyland amongst others mistakenly thought that a poster on twitter was her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:25:43 AM
If Amy Tierney was defamed then it is up to her to seek a resolution.

It is interesting though that while condemning the actions of Brenda you have yet to condemn the actions of your fellow supporter.
I asked you if you approved of Brenda’s posts in which she defamed an individual, interesting that your support for Brenda is such that you can’t bring yourself to answer the question.  As for your other point I brlieve I did already condemn those vile tweets but there was no evidence that they were made by a McCann supporter, no previous posts made on the subject, just an out and out troll.  And even if they WERE a regular McCann supporter posting under a new account created solely for that purpose then I would still condemn them absolutely.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 08:54:40 AM
I asked you if you approved of Brenda’s posts in which she defamed an individual, interesting that your support for Brenda is such that you can’t bring yourself to answer the question.  As for your other point I brlieve I did already condemn those vile tweets but there was no evidence that they were made by a McCann supporter, no previous posts made on the subject, just an out and out troll.  And even if they WERE a regular McCann supporter posting under a new account created solely for that purpose then I would still condemn them absolutely.


What had Brenda Leyland done wrong.

What gave brunt the right - to do what he did to her.

Why did he think it important to sky news to do what he did - or even news worthy.

All Brenda did is what thousands do every day - and still do.

IMO, he wouldn't have dared  go to the mcns door - demanding them to answer questions.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2018, 09:54:31 AM
One can be morally complicit with others in an endeavor which ultimately results in a death. IMO the dossier compilers were complicit with Martin Brunt and he with them in what occurred. By attempting to gain the moral high and do the rebuking, they ultimately became the ones rebuked.  Unfortunately, two wrongs do not make a right! 

Best to leave these things to the police.

Sorry John I disagree,   the dossier compiler/s did what they thought was right,  they were worried about consequences,   Martin Brunt then [knowing who BL was as she had put her name on the internet]  confronted her about the tweets she and the group she was in were posting on the internet.   Now I am sorry but journalists confront people in this way all the time,  they don't go out and take their life over it.   Are you saying that citizens shouldn't gather information together if they think something bad was going to happen?   What about the boy who tweeted he was going to kill?  His fellow pupils ignored it thinking he was just a weirdo,  he went on to kill how do you think those children feel?   Do you think they are thinking 'if only'.    BL decided to take her own life,  she had attempted it before,  no one is to blame IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 10:05:32 AM
Sorry John I disagree,   the dossier compiler/s did what they thought was right,  they were worried about consequences,   Martin Brunt then [knowing who BL was as she had put her name on the internet]  confronted her about the tweets she and the group she was in were posting on the internet.   Now I am sorry but journalists confront people in this way all the time,  they don't go out and take their life over it.   Are you saying that citizens shouldn't gather information together if they think something bad was going to happen?   What about the boy who tweeted he was going to kill?  His fellow pupils ignored it thinking he was just a weirdo,  he went on to kill how do you think those children feel?   Do you think they are thinking 'if only'.    BL decided to take her own life,  she had attempted it before,  no one is to blame IMO


If they thought it was right why was it all done anonymously then.

Why did they not contact the police - if they honestly thought something bad was going to happen
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2018, 10:11:17 AM

If they thought it was right why was it all done anonymously then.

Why did they not contact the police - if they honestly thought something bad was going to happen

I doubt if they were anonymous to the police.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
I asked you if you approved of Brenda’s posts in which she defamed an individual, interesting that your support for Brenda is such that you can’t bring yourself to answer the question.  As for your other point I brlieve I did already condemn those vile tweets but there was no evidence that they were made by a McCann supporter, no previous posts made on the subject, just an out and out troll.  And even if they WERE a regular McCann supporter posting under a new account created solely for that purpose then I would still condemn them absolutely.

I wasn’t talking about Raine, I believe, but the supporter who threatened to contact a wholly innocent young woman’s employer simply because she had the same name as me.

As to Brenda, I believe it was tit for tat with none of those taking part in the twitter dialogue being covered in glory.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
I doubt if they were anonymous to the police.

All the supporters here who have been accused of taking part in the dossier seem appalled at the suggestion even though they are also anonymous here and would not be exposed by admitting it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the actions taken is it ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 10:29:50 AM
I doubt if they were anonymous to the police.


So did they hand it to the police first.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:41:08 AM

So did they hand it to the police first.
Are you asking did they hand the dossier to the police first?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 11:02:26 AM
Are you asking did they hand the dossier to the police first?

Yes
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:07:49 AM
Yes

They did Kizzy but imo when the police failed to hand out quickly enough the retribution the compilers so obviously craved they handed it to Sky news.


Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 11:47:50 AM
They did Kizzy but imo when the police failed to hand out quickly enough the retribution the compilers so obviously craved they handed it to Sky news.

Well when you've spent all that time and effort compiling these dossiers, to have it discarded is just not good enough, is it? Vindication of your actions is what you want

What really amazes me is why they bothered accumulating all the information.
It clearly didn't achieve what they wanted - prosecution, and rather backfired on them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2018, 11:55:22 AM
No one knows the pressures suffered by an individual which leads them to despair of their lives and give up by ending it all.

We know from the evidence presented at her inquest that Brenda Leyland had previously attempted suicide; we know that on this occasion her attempt was successful; what we cannot know is what exactly was going through her mind when she went out and purchased the means of ending her life.

As an aside ... she had 'friends' on twitter.  Did any perhaps contact her either with support when she was 'outed' or condemnation for not making a better case?
Or was this fragile and perhaps desperately lonely woman ignored.

Martin Brunt (who did not know her medical history) did speak with her and she spoke with her son (who did know her medical history) who thought she was devastated by being headline news ... but neither man ~ or the neighbour with whom she made arrangements for the care of her cat ~ had an inkling of the action she would take later.

Did Brenda Leyland have the right to due process?
I sincerely think she did.

Why didn't she take it? 
Wasn't her son a lawyer who could have advised her of the best course of action to take in the circumstances?

Something which has been conspicuously absent from this whole internet fest is any comment from Brenda Leyland's family.
There has been no public statement of outrage or any attempt to take legal action against anyone associated with either compiling the hate dossier or anyone revealing her role in the now more than eleven year continual internet onslaught directed at the McCann family.

I think respect for Brenda Leyland's family is sadly lacking by those turning an incredibly sad and troubled woman into an icon for the hatred that burns in their hearts which refuses to allow her to rest in the peace she didn't have in her life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 11:57:56 AM
I think we have all learned a valuable lesson from the incident and the repercussions which followed and that is not to interfere in what is really an issue which must be decided by the police and ultimately the CPS or its devolved equivalents.  I'm sure we can all agree that trial by media is totally unacceptable?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 12:03:22 PM
No one knows the pressures suffered by an individual which leads them to despair of their lives and give up by ending it all.

We know from the evidence presented at her inquest that Brenda Leyland had previously attempted suicide; we know that on this occasion her attempt was successful; what we cannot know is what exactly was going through her mind when she went out and purchased the means of ending her life.

As an aside ... she had 'friends' on twitter.  Did any perhaps contact her either with support when she was 'outed' or condemnation for not making a better case?
Or was this fragile and perhaps desperately lonely woman ignored.

Martin Brunt (who did not know her medical history) did speak with her and she spoke with her son (who did know her medical history) who thought she was devastated by being headline news ... but neither man ~ or the neighbour with whom she made arrangements for the care of her cat ~ had an inkling of the action she would take later.

Did Brenda Leyland have the right to due process?
I sincerely think she did.

Why didn't she take it? 
Wasn't her son a lawyer who could have advised her of the best course of action to take in the circumstances?

Something which has been conspicuously absent from this whole internet fest is any comment from Brenda Leyland's family.
There has been no public statement of outrage or any attempt to take legal action against anyone associated with either compiling the hate dossier or anyone revealing her role in the now more than eleven year continual internet onslaught directed at the McCann family.

I think respect for Brenda Leyland's family is sadly lacking by those turning an incredibly sad and troubled woman into an icon for the hatred that burns in their hearts which refuses to allow her to rest in the peace she didn't have in her life.

All the more reason he should not have done what he did. Hopefully a lesson learned but unfortunately a hard one for some.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2018, 12:26:58 PM
All the more reason he should not have done what he did. Hopefully a lesson learned but unfortunately a hard one for some.

He was doing his job, John, in the time honoured way rolling news is covered.
There are those who would perhaps revel in the notoriety (apparently you were no-one unless you were named in the dossier).   

If individuals devote their lives to joining a very active hate campaign against named individuals without realising how easy it is to be 'outed' there should be some means of warning them that this is not the case.

I have no doubt Brenda Leland's easy exposure made a few think twice about their internet use ... particularly those who have chosen to 'anonymously' pursue a different abuse target from the McCann family.
Some of whom have committed suicide as a result of suffering such abuse.

The legislation is already in existence to combat internet misuse ... it just isn't being used.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2018, 12:36:12 PM
All the supporters here who have been accused of taking part in the dossier seem appalled at the suggestion even though they are also anonymous here and would not be exposed by admitting it. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the actions taken is it ?


I'm not appalled at the suggestion.

They stay anonymous so that crazy abuse threatening morons don't take revenge.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 12:40:28 PM

I'm not appalled at the suggestion.

They stay anonymous so that crazy abuse threatening morons don't take revenge.

But were quite happy to behave as   'crazy abuse threatening morons' in the first place.
Perhaps they should have thought about potential consequences before unleashing their ire on others
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 12:47:51 PM
Judging by the comments on this thread no-one has learned anything from what happened imo. I get the impression that if people feel the police and the law don't deal with what IN THEIR OPINION is criminal behaviour then it's OK to use other methods to deal with these 'criminals'.

That includes informing the media and then letting them do as they think fit; after all, it wasn't the fault of the 'concerned citizens' if the media chose to doorstep one of these 'criminals' and broadcast the results, was it.

When tragic consequences follow, it's no-one's fault either because none of them knew they were pursuing a vulnerable person, did they?

Talk about passing the buck!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2018, 12:50:54 PM
Does behaviour have to be criminal before it is deemed wrong?

Best if it is.
So what are you proposing as an alternative?.
I don't think you would actually like the alternative unless you were on the dispensing end.
But in those circumstances "might is right" and your "might" may not hold sway.

You do sound like an adolescent in a 1950s/1960s dance hall.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2018, 12:57:16 PM
I think we have all learned a valuable lesson from the incident and the repercussions which followed and that is not to interfere in what is really an issue which must be decided by the police and ultimately the CPS or its devolved equivalents.  I'm sure we can all agree that trial by media is totally unacceptable?

Trial by media is what started it all John.   People decided the McCann's were guilty and took it upon themselves to try them on media like a pack of crazy mediaeval witches.   Not satisfied with posts proclaiming the McCann's were guilty they formed groups where they met to stir up hatred for the family, then the threats about what should happen to them to get to the 'truth' as they called it.

Still it goes on to this day.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2018, 01:00:26 PM
Judging by the comments on this thread no-one has learned anything from what happened imo. I get the impression that if people feel the police and the law don't deal with what IN THEIR OPINION is criminal behaviour then it's OK to use other methods to deal with these 'criminals'.

That includes informing the media and then letting them do as they think fit; after all, it wasn't the fault of the 'concerned citizens' if the media chose to doorstep one of these 'criminals' and broadcast the results, was it.

When tragic consequences follow, it's no-one's fault either because none of them knew they were pursuing a vulnerable person, did they?

Talk about passing the buck!

No nothing has been learned you're right,  they are still at it.

They decided the McCann's were criminals and make it their right to abuse and threaten the family.

Is that ok with you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2018, 01:05:37 PM
But were quite happy to behave as   'crazy abuse threatening morons' in the first place.
Perhaps they should have thought about potential consequences before unleashing their ire on others

May the gods preserve us from the zealots.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 01:08:19 PM
Best if it is.
So what are you proposing as an alternative?.
I don't think you would actually like the alternative unless you were on the dispensing end.
But in those circumstances "might is right" and your "might" may not hold sway.

You do sound like an adolescent in a 1950s/1960s dance hall.


If someone has an elderly parent whom they only visit  or contact once or twice a year, then in my opinion that is wrong but not criminal.

If someone skips their place in a queue by barging in front, then in my opinion that is wrong but not criminal.

If a partner cheats on their wife or husband then in my opinion that is wrong but not criminal

If someone posts hate on social media then in my opinion that is wrong and should be a crime.

I do wonder why you feel the need to add sneering personal remarks to other posters.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2018, 01:16:33 PM

If someone has an elderly parent whom they only visit  or contact once or twice a year, then in my opinion that is wrong but not criminal.

If someone skips their place in a queue by barging in front, then in my opinion that is wrong but not criminal.

If a partner cheats on their wife or husband then in my opinion that is wrong but not criminal

If someone posts hate on social media then in my opinion that is wrong and should be a crime.

I do wonder why you feel the need to add sneering personal remarks to other posters.


See my post.
Your post is living proof you like to dispense not to receive.
QED

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 01:36:38 PM
Sorry John I disagree,   the dossier compiler/s did what they thought was right,  they were worried about consequences,   Martin Brunt then [knowing who BL was as she had put her name on the internet]  confronted her about the tweets she and the group she was in were posting on the internet.   Now I am sorry but journalists confront people in this way all the time,  they don't go out and take their life over it.   Are you saying that citizens shouldn't gather information together if they think something bad was going to happen?   What about the boy who tweeted he was going to kill?  His fellow pupils ignored it thinking he was just a weirdo,  he went on to kill how do you think those children feel?   Do you think they are thinking 'if only'.    BL decided to take her own life,  she had attempted it before,  no one is to blame IMO

A few points Lace regarding your post. 

1)the dossier compiler/s did what they thought was right - How would you know if you were not at least aware of the dossier prior to it going to Sky etc.

2) Martin Brunt then [knowing who BL was as she had put her name on the internet]  - NO her name was not "all on the internet" in connection with sweepyface. It took a few other supporters to find out who she is and I have read the thread on how they found her. Martin Brunt was given her full name and that she lived in Leicester(shire)

3) Now I am sorry but journalists confront people in this way all the time,  they don't go out and take their life over it.  - They may confont people all the time but generally not right outside their house and give it a full rolling news every 30 minutes or so, plus the other media screaming TROLL at Brenda Leyland.

4) What about the boy who tweeted he was going to kill?  His fellow pupils ignored it thinking he was just a weirdo,  he went on to kill how do you think those children feel?   - So you think going to the media would save a person's life or wouldn't it be better to go straight to the police and bypass the outing of the person who made the tweets until after they were arrested.

5) BL decided to take her own life,  she had attempted it before,  no one is to blame IMO - you would say that wouldn't you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 21, 2018, 01:57:35 PM
Trial by media is what started it all John.   People decided the McCann's were guilty and took it upon themselves to try them on media like a pack of crazy mediaeval witches.   Not satisfied with posts proclaiming the McCann's were guilty they formed groups where they met to stir up hatred for the family, then the threats about what should happen to them to get to the 'truth' as they called it.

Still it goes on to this day.

 The Mccanns were official asuspects in a case and who admitted leaving young children alone night after night... no wonder people have negative opinions and express them.

then you have Brenda Leyland, like many others expressing this opinion but she is doorstepped and singled out on national TV without any warning. Why anyone could condone this or think it fair treatment I can't understand.
  Even the McCanns had time to pick who they spoke to in the media/ interviews, on the night of the abduction, they got consular support, Embassy support and days after flew out family members, police and secured lawyers / P.R to represent them.

 Yes people's opinions are still expressed today, that is not the same as 'threats'. Maybe a cite should be required for claims of 'threats', as the police found no credible threats in an 80 page document. Even the police could only describe it as 'unpleasant'. Why did the concerned dossier compilers have to collate so much discussion from fora and online when none of it turned out legally to be threats?  IMO it was an attempted intimidation exercise in order to curtail free discussion on an issue they didn't want people to discuss. Brenda was the scapegoat in this exercise.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 02:04:18 PM
The Mccanns were official asuspects in a case and who admitted leaving young children alone night after night... no wonder people have negative opinions and express them.

then you have Brenda Leyland, like many others expressing this opinion but she is doorstepped and singled out on national TV without any warning. Why anyone could condone this or think it fair treatment I can't understand.
  Even the McCanns had time to pick who they spoke to in the media/ interviews, on the night of the abduction, they got consular support, Embassy support and days after flew out family members, police and secured lawyers / P.R to represent them.

 Yes people's opinions are still expressed today, that is not the same as 'threats'. Maybe a cite should be required for claims of 'threats', as the police found no credible threats in an 80 page document. Even the police could only describe it as 'unpleasant'. Why did the concerned dossier compilers have to collate so much discussion from fora and online when none of it turned out legally to be threats?  IMO it was an attempted intimidation exercise in order to curtail free discussion on an issue they didn't want people to discuss. Brenda was the scapegoat in this exercise.


Sounds reasonable to me
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 02:22:51 PM
The Mccanns were official asuspects in a case and who admitted leaving young children alone night after night... no wonder people have negative opinions and express them.

then you have Brenda Leyland, like many others expressing this opinion but she is doorstepped and singled out on national TV without any warning. Why anyone could condone this or think it fair treatment I can't understand.
  Even the McCanns had time to pick who they spoke to in the media/ interviews, on the night of the abduction, they got consular support, Embassy support and days after flew out family members, police and secured lawyers / P.R to represent them.

 Yes people's opinions are still expressed today, that is not the same as 'threats'. Maybe a cite should be required for claims of 'threats', as the police found no credible threats in an 80 page document. Even the police could only describe it as 'unpleasant'. Why did the concerned dossier compilers have to collate so much discussion from fora and online when none of it turned out legally to be threats?  IMO it was an attempted intimidation exercise in order to curtail free discussion on an issue they didn't want people to discuss. Brenda was the scapegoat in this exercise.

Very well put.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 02:32:52 PM
No one knows the pressures suffered by an individual which leads them to despair of their lives and give up by ending it all.

We know from the evidence presented at her inquest that Brenda Leyland had previously attempted suicide; we know that on this occasion her attempt was successful; what we cannot know is what exactly was going through her mind when she went out and purchased the means of ending her life.

As an aside ... she had 'friends' on twitter.  Did any perhaps contact her either with support when she was 'outed' or condemnation for not making a better case?
Or was this fragile and perhaps desperately lonely woman ignored.

Martin Brunt (who did not know her medical history) did speak with her and she spoke with her son (who did know her medical history) who thought she was devastated by being headline news ... but neither man ~ or the neighbour with whom she made arrangements for the care of her cat ~ had an inkling of the action she would take later.

Did Brenda Leyland have the right to due process?
I sincerely think she did.

Why didn't she take it? 
Wasn't her son a lawyer who could have advised her of the best course of action to take in the circumstances?

Something which has been conspicuously absent from this whole internet fest is any comment from Brenda Leyland's family.
There has been no public statement of outrage or any attempt to take legal action against anyone associated with either compiling the hate dossier or anyone revealing her role in the now more than eleven year continual internet onslaught directed at the McCann family.

I think respect for Brenda Leyland's family is sadly lacking by those turning an incredibly sad and troubled woman into an icon for the hatred that burns in their hearts which refuses to allow her to rest in the peace she didn't have in her life.

Excellent post
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 04:07:12 PM
He was doing his job, John, in the time honoured way rolling news is covered.
There are those who would perhaps revel in the notoriety (apparently you were no-one unless you were named in the dossier).   

If individuals devote their lives to joining a very active hate campaign against named individuals without realising how easy it is to be 'outed' there should be some means of warning them that this is not the case.

I have no doubt Brenda Leland's easy exposure made a few think twice about their internet use ... particularly those who have chosen to 'anonymously' pursue a different abuse target from the McCann family.
Some of whom have committed suicide as a result of suffering such abuse.

The legislation is already in existence to combat internet misuse ... it just isn't being used.

I strongly disagree, it was not Martin Brunt's job to doorstep a member of the public in such a way. BL was not a criminal, she was not about to be arrested nor was she the subject of any criminal proceedings.

The aftermath indicates that Sky News, their producer and reporter all overstepped the mark.  They had no right to single out a member of the public in such a cowardly manner. All Sky was after was some sensationalist footage to broadcast and to hell with the consequences. The Sky team were lucky to keep their jobs following such a stupid prank. They appear to have learned their lesson but all too late for the victim.

I suspect the truth behind what occurred was more to do with saving face over the fiasco in Praia da Luz than it was to do with unearthing an internet troll.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 21, 2018, 04:09:46 PM
I find the notion that Brenda was an 'incredibly sad troubled woman' a bit patronising really. Many people suffer from depression. It doesn't mean Brunt, Sky or the compilers of the no substance dossier are resolved of responsibility for what they set into motion.

Her son said she once attempted suicide 'a long time ago', yes he was a lawyer and he had spoken to her about trying to get the media not to publish her photo in the paper after she phoned him in a panic. A bit of a tall order after being plastered live all over sky news the day before!
 Saying people want to use her and make her an icon of their 'hatred' is absurd to me, I for one am appalled that she was unjustly hounded in this way for expressing her views in a country where we supposedly have freedom of speech.
 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 04:14:39 PM
A little point but an important one, the Sky broadcast was not live.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 04:20:21 PM
I find the notion that Brenda was an 'incredibly sad troubled woman' a bit patronising really. Many people suffer from depression. It doesn't mean Brunt, Sky or the compilers of the no substance dossier are resolved of responsibility for what they set into motion.

Her son said she once attempted suicide 'a long time ago', yes he was a lawyer and he had spoken to her about trying to get the media not to publish her photo in the paper after she phoned him in a panic. A bit of a tall order after being plastered live all over sky news the day before!
 Saying people want to use her and make her an icon of their 'hatred' is absurd to me, I for one am appalled that she was unjustly hounded in this way for expressing her views in a country where we supposedly have freedom of speech.
 


But our freedom of speech is constrained in many ways which I hope you believe is correct.
We cannot  venture out into public and voice hatred towards any person because of their ethinticity, religion, sexual preference. etc.
None of this is allowed either on social media.
She could certainly express her views on whether she believed that Madeleine was abducted but why did she express hatred.
Why hate?


Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 04:40:50 PM
IMO if Brenda had been contrite & apologised (on camera at the time)  for any hurt her words may have caused to the McCanns or other individuals then it is probable she would not have been the subject of rolling footage. Her defiant attitude  in appearing to not accept she had done anything wrong was her undoing imo & why she was made an example of. Had she been charged, the exchange with Brunt would have been used as further evidence against her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 05:35:54 PM
He was doing his job, John, in the time honoured way rolling news is covered.
There are those who would perhaps revel in the notoriety (apparently you were no-one unless you were named in the dossier).   

If individuals devote their lives to joining a very active hate campaign against named individuals without realising how easy it is to be 'outed' there should be some means of warning them that this is not the case.

I have no doubt Brenda Leland's easy exposure made a few think twice about their internet use ... particularly those who have chosen to 'anonymously' pursue a different abuse target from the McCann family.
Some of whom have committed suicide as a result of suffering such abuse.

The legislation is already in existence to combat internet misuse ... it just isn't being used.



He was doing his job, John,


Oh fgs. - you think that ok then to harass someone to imo death.

What about GA then - he was only doing his ...job.

Fair to say there i think B - a bit of double standerds going on there. imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
I wasn’t talking about Raine, I believe, but the supporter who threatened to contact a wholly innocent young woman’s employer simply because she had the same name as me.

As to Brenda, I believe it was tit for tat with none of those taking part in the twitter dialogue being covered in glory.
Anyone who contacts someone’s place of work out of spite is to be comdemned utterly, and as I’m sure you are already aware this has also happened to McCann supporters.  Don’t ask for cites as I’m not prepared to drag up anciemt history and would have to name names.  I’m sure you know I’m right however.  It’s all incredibly childish behaviour IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 21, 2018, 05:37:31 PM
IMO if Brenda had been contrite & apologised (on camera at the time)  for any hurt her words may have caused to the McCanns or other individuals then it is probable she would not have been the subject of rolling footage. Her defiant attitude  in appearing to not accept she had done anything wrong was her undoing imo & why she was made an example of. Had she been charged, the exchange with Brunt would have been used as further evidence against her.

Quite ironic that... contrite and apologetic...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 05:42:35 PM

See my post.
Your post is living proof you like to dispense not to receive.
QED
Who really would like to be on the receiving end of you regularly dispensed withering contempt andd occasional obscenity?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 21, 2018, 05:44:20 PM

But our freedom of speech is constrained in many ways which I hope you believe is correct.
We cannot  venture out into public and voice hatred towards any person because of their ethinticity, religion, sexual preference. etc.
None of this is allowed either on social media.
She could certainly express her views on whether she believed that Madeleine was abducted but why did she express hatred.
Why hate?

We can be quite strong in our condemnation of others behaviour without crossing the bounds of legality.

It all comes down to whether you are commenting on a person or their actions.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 05:45:28 PM
The Mccanns were official asuspects in a case and who admitted leaving young children alone night after night... no wonder people have negative opinions and express them.

then you have Brenda Leyland, like many others expressing this opinion but she is doorstepped and singled out LIVE on national TV without any warning. Why anyone could condone this or think it fair treatment I can't understand.
  Even the McCanns had time to pick who they spoke to in the media/ interviews, on the night of the abduction, they got consular support, Embassy support and days after flew out family members, police and secured lawyers / P.R to represent them.

 Yes people's opinions are still expressed today, that is not the same as 'threats'. Maybe a cite should be required for claims of 'threats', as the police found no credible threats in an 80 page document. Even the police could only describe it as 'unpleasant'. Why did the concerned dossier compilers have to collate so much discussion from fora and online when none of it turned out legally to be threats?  IMO it was an attempted intimidation exercise in order to curtail free discussion on an issue they didn't want people to discuss. Brenda was the scapegoat in this exercise.
I don’t believe Martin Brunt conducted a live broadcast from outside Brenda’s house -that would have been very risky.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 21, 2018, 05:45:54 PM
Who really would like to be on the receiving end of you regularly dispensed withering contempt andd occasional obscenity?

Who would really care?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 05:50:08 PM
Who would really care?
Well I doubt you would let it stand if you were on the receiving end would you?  It would be deleted in seconds and penalty points issued in a jiffy, ergo you would really care, obviously.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 05:57:15 PM
We can be quite strong in our condemnation of others behaviour without crossing the bounds of legality.

It all comes down to whether you are commenting on a person or their actions.

Hate is a very strong comment to use to the parents of a missing child.
Even if in the context of  their baby sitting arrangements.
I assume that would be what Brenda was condemning.
I still don't understand the hatred.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 21, 2018, 06:00:17 PM
Hate is a very strong comment to use to the parents of a missing child.
Even if in the context of  their baby sitting arrangements.
I assume that would be what Brenda was condemning.
I still don't understand the hatred.

Can you cite this hate?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 21, 2018, 06:01:41 PM
IMO if Brenda had been contrite & apologised (on camera at the time)  for any hurt her words may have caused to the McCanns or other individuals then it is probable she would not have been the subject of rolling footage. Her defiant attitude  in appearing to not accept she had done anything wrong was her undoing imo & why she was made an example of. Had she been charged, the exchange with Brunt would have been used as further evidence against her.

But she wasn't charged, she wasn't even investigated.  She was an innocent woman who had very strong views on the McCann case. Just wtf Martin Brunt thought he was doing is beyond me. He must feel such a fool now at being used as a tool by supporters.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 21, 2018, 06:03:24 PM
Anyone who contacts someone’s place of work out of spite is to be comdemned utterly, and as I’m sure you are already aware this has also happened to McCann supporters.  Don’t ask for cites as I’m not prepared to drag up anciemt history and would have to name names.  I’m sure you know I’m right however.  It’s all incredibly childish behaviour IMO.

I must say I agree totally with you Alf, it is extremely childish.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 21, 2018, 06:05:10 PM
IMO if Brenda had been contrite & apologised (on camera at the time)  for any hurt her words may have caused to the McCanns or other individuals then it is probable she would not have been the subject of rolling footage. Her defiant attitude  in appearing to not accept she had done anything wrong was her undoing imo & why she was made an example of. Had she been charged, the exchange with Brunt would have been used as further evidence against her.

If Brunt had approached me he would have gotten his microphone shoved down his throat.  But then he only approaches soft targets.  Sky has quite the reputation for bullying reporters like Alex Crawford and Lisa Holland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 06:08:25 PM
Can you cite this hate?

I read Buzzfeed the deleted tweets of .........then her user name.
I "hate" cruelty, liars,those who profit from an others tragedy, ergo my "hate for Kate and "Gerry" is justified.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 06:09:43 PM
I must say I agree totally with you Alf, it is extremely childish.

I don’t think anyone would disagree.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 06:09:52 PM


As an aside ... she had 'friends' on twitter.  Did any perhaps contact her either with support when she was 'outed' or condemnation for not making a better case?
Or was this fragile and perhaps desperately lonely woman ignored.

Did her "friends" on twitter know who she was (what her name was and where she lived) and I remember reading that she didn't read her twitter from the day Martin Brunt visited her so how would they get in touch with her?

Could you let me know how they could have done so please Brietta.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:22:32 PM
I don’t think anyone would disagree.
Brenda’s mistake was getting swept along on a twitter tidal wave of childish spite, where she seemed rather gleeful at the prospect of someone’s employer being contacted.  What turns perfectly nice respectable people into such nasty online personas?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 06:26:24 PM
Brenda’s mistake was getting swept along on a twitter tidal wave of childish spite, where she seemed rather gleeful at the prospect of someone’s employer being contacted.  What turns perfectly nice respectable people into such nasty online personas?

So do you believe the person that threatened to contact Gartnavel Hospital and attempt to ruin a young girl’s career should have been doorstepped too ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 21, 2018, 06:32:43 PM
I read Buzzfeed the deleted tweets of .........then her user name.
I "hate" cruelty, liars,those who profit from an others tragedy, ergo my "hate for Kate and "Gerry" is justified.

Did you notice the quotation marks?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:33:18 PM
So do you believe the person that threatened to contact Gartnavel Hospital and attempt to ruin a young girl’s career should have been doorstepped too ?
No, I think they should have been put in stocks and had rotten fruit thrown at them.  That’d learn ‘em!!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 06:36:01 PM
No, I think they should have been put in stocks and had rotten fruit thrown at them.  That’d learn ‘em!!

But the most Brenda seems to have done proactively is laugh at another tweeters outing and she was doorstepped. Surely actually outing, wrongly, a young professional and perhaps ruining her career deserves at least the same treatment?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:37:04 PM
But the most Brenda seems to have done proactively is laugh at another tweeters outing and she was doorstepped. Surely actually outing, wrongly, a young professional and perhaps ruining her career deserves at least the same treatment?
If you say so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 06:38:35 PM
Did you notice the quotation marks?

Yes.
The article was quite supportive of Brenda.
Do you not find her obsessive tweeting and "hatred" of the McCanns strange, not criminal perhaps  but worrying.if it was directed at one of your family?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 06:46:58 PM
If you say so.

You really don’t want to answer do you ? I can understand why.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:48:21 PM
“To Kate and Gerry, you will be hated by millions for the rest of your miserable, evil, conniving lives, have a nice day!” - Brenda Leyland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 06:50:48 PM
“To Kate and Gerry, you will be hated by millions for the rest of your miserable, evil, conniving lives, have a nice day!” - Brenda Leyland.

Did they read it ? Did that poor physiotherapist from Gartnavel do anything to deserve having her employers contacted by some deranged supporter?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:51:15 PM
You really don’t want to answer do you ? I can understand why.
If a reporter wants to doorstep some spiteful bitch to ask her why she tried to get someone the sack for supporting the McCanns then I really don’t have a problem with it. Is that frank and fulsome enough for you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:53:16 PM
Did they read it ? Did that poor physiotherapist from Gartnavel do anything to deserve having her employers contacted by some deranged supporter?
Deflection, deflection, deflection.  Slarti asked for examples of Brenda’s hate as if it was all a figment of the imagination.  The post outlines very well the depth of her hatred, it’s an utterly horrible tweet, any decent person would say so.  Harping on about other hateful actions by other hateful people cannot detract from that fact.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 21, 2018, 06:53:43 PM
Yes.
The article was quite supportive of Brenda.
Do you not find her obsessive tweeting and "hatred" of the McCanns strange, not criminal perhaps  but worrying.if it was directed at one of your family?

I can understand it, it's how social media platforms like Twitter operate. Many users on twitter are anonymous and that adds to the attraction for some people. Any twitter user can block accounts which are abusive and that's what makes it workable.  If you're not on twitter you cannot be sent abusive messages. The hashtag #McCann name has become synonymous with the Maddie case, it's what Twitter users use to get their comments noticed by anyone remotely interested in the investigation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 06:54:47 PM
If a reporter wants to doorstep some spiteful bitch to ask her why she tried to get someone the sack for supporting the McCanns then I really don’t have a problem with it. Is that frank and fulsome enough for you?

For not supporting the McCanns.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 06:55:24 PM
I have found a post on here where supporters discussing finding Brenda on twitter
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6144.195

Look at their mature sensible language..not.  How nasty they were to her.

Some of the tweets from the link.

> TrulyJudy73 to @sweepyface
Are you alright in your bonce Sweepy? I have never used AB Mash nor would I ever. Sad life stalking the wrong person

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1
is that her name? PM me how you know this will you Tony?

--> TrulyJudy73 to @alfibab3 @WAWinter1 @sweepyface
the name rings a bell with me but for why I just am trying hard to recall

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3
@sweepyface <<< you are right. I see her fb page! Same boxer dog & she's more of a dog herself!

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
ugh! She is one ugly Mama

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
here she is on some fb page:https://t.co/IZAREOVYBR #McCann. Take a look at the boxer!

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
yes that Brenda is sweepyface & lives too close to the #McCann s for my comfort tbh.

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
rough looking isn't she?

--> TrulyJudy73 to @alfibab3 @WAWinter1 @sweepyface
It is her Jasmine so look at other tweets.

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @Josephodriscoll
I should have said she wruff! She only has doggies for companions & cruelly dresses them up like reindeer
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 06:56:42 PM
Did her "friends" on twitter know who she was (what her name was and where she lived) and I remember reading that she didn't read her twitter from the day Martin Brunt visited her so how would they get in touch with her?

Could you let me know how they could have done so please Brietta.

The top sceptic troll on twitter posted a message of condolence on Brenda's son's Facebook page just a few hours (the Sunday) after he announced her passing,  He lives in USA, as does the troll. Is that proof enough some sceptics knew exactly who Brenda was?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
I have found a post on here where supporters discussing finding Brenda on twitter
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6144.195

Look at their mature sensible language..not.  How nasty they were to her.

Some of the tweets from the link.

> TrulyJudy73 to @sweepyface
Are you alright in your bonce Sweepy? I have never used AB Mash nor would I ever. Sad life stalking the wrong person

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1
is that her name? PM me how you know this will you Tony?

--> TrulyJudy73 to @alfibab3 @WAWinter1 @sweepyface
the name rings a bell with me but for why I just am trying hard to recall

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3
@sweepyface <<< you are right. I see her fb page! Same boxer dog & she's more of a dog herself!

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
ugh! She is one ugly Mama

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
here she is on some fb page:https://t.co/IZAREOVYBR #McCann. Take a look at the boxer!

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
yes that Brenda is sweepyface & lives too close to the #McCann s for my comfort tbh.

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @alfibab3 @sweepyface
rough looking isn't she?

--> TrulyJudy73 to @alfibab3 @WAWinter1 @sweepyface
It is her Jasmine so look at other tweets.

--> TrulyJudy73 to @WAWinter1 @Josephodriscoll
I should have said she wruff! She only has doggies for companions & cruelly dresses them up like reindeer



Tolerant lot, weren't they   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2018, 06:58:51 PM
Did her "friends" on twitter know who she was (what her name was and where she lived) and I remember reading that she didn't read her twitter from the day Martin Brunt visited her so how would they get in touch with her?

Could you let me know how they could have done so please Brietta.

      "On Twitter she uses the name Sweepy face ..." Martin Brunt ~ from the Sky News report.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:59:13 PM
The moral of the story is - if you would feel ashamed of having your nasty, spiteful vindictive tweets splashed across the front pages of the Daily Mail or broadcast on Sky, probably best not to make them in the first place.  If you are not able to justify your actions or unable to take pride in the fact that you tried to get someone the sack for supporting (or tweeting against) the McCanns, don’t do it in the first place. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 06:59:56 PM
For not supporting the McCanns.
For ANY REASON.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 07:01:15 PM
The top sceptic troll on twitter posted a message of condolence on Brenda's son's Facebook page just a few hours (the Sunday) after he announced her passing,  He lives in USA, as does the troll. Is that proof enough some sceptics knew exactly who Brenda was?

I don't know who the top sceptic troll is and no I didn't know he/she had left a message on Brenda's son's page.  I have never seen it. So do we know if she knew Brenda? That I know nothing about and if she knew Brenda then she should have got in touch with her.

As a matter on interest how do you know Erngath?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:01:42 PM
The moral of the story is - if you would feel ashamed of having your nasty, spiteful vindictive tweets splashed across the front pages of the Daily Mail or broadcast on Sky, probably best not to make them in the first place.  If you are not to justify your actions or unable to take pride in the fact that you tried to get someone the sack for supporting the McCanns, don’t do it in the first place.

Would you apply that same advise to the dossier Compiler in Chief ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 07:03:21 PM
I can understand it, it's how social media like Twitter operates. Many users on twitter are anonymous and that adds to the attraction for some people. Any twitter user can block accounts which are abusive and that's what makes it workable.

Perhaps there are other subjects which seem to attract such an obsession and such strong " hatred " as the tragedy of Madeleine's disappearance but I'm not aware of them.
My interest first and foremost has always been In the tragic disappearance of a little child, but why people have such a strong antipathy to her family has always puzzled me.
I didn't use the word hate but sometimes hatred does seem to be there.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:03:29 PM
Would you apply that same advise to the dossier Compiler in Chief ?
What spiteful vindictive tweets did they make?  Whose employer did they contact?  Was their name splashed all over the media?  I bet you wish it had been.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 07:04:57 PM
For ANY REASON.

It was me she was targeting. The poor girl was just unfortunate to have the same name as me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:05:21 PM
“Indeed “hate” is a powerful emotion, it is a compliment to Maddie that we “hate” her parents who betrayed her” - Brenda Leyland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:07:11 PM
What spiteful vindictive tweets did they make?  Whose employer did they contact?  Was their name splashed all over the media?  I bet you wish it had been.

In the interest of balance, it would have been reasonable for thoss papers who reported on the incident to name the compiler.
Its very unlikely that the name would have meant anything to me, but it would have to some people.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:10:17 PM
I find hate an overrated emotion that gnaws away at ones inner self.
I suggest anger management  classes for those so afflicted.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:12:01 PM
It was me she was targeting. The poor girl was just unfortunate to have the same name as me.
Out of interest how do you know this?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 07:14:51 PM
Out of interest how do you know this?

Because the supporter tweeted the details of, she thought, my job and workplace.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:16:30 PM
Because the supporter tweeted the details of, she thought, my job and workplace.
But how do you know they contacted “the poor girl”’s employer?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 07:18:41 PM
“To Kate and Gerry, you will be hated by millions for the rest of your miserable, evil, conniving lives, have a nice day!” - Brenda Leyland.


well i dont have a problem with that

If that is what B L thought of the mcns so be it  - it was her prerogative to do so imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:18:50 PM
I find hate an overrated emotion that gnaws away at ones inner self.
I suggest anger management  classes for those so afflicted.
Sadly it’s too late to suggest it to Brenda, perhaps if she had taken your advice before joining twitter she’d still be alive today.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:20:22 PM

well i dont have a problem with that

If that is what B L thought of the mcns so be it  - it was her prerogative to do so imo
I’m sure you don’t have a problem with it, I posted it as an example of Brenda’s hatred, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you agreed with it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 07:21:12 PM
Because the supporter tweeted the details of, she thought, my job and workplace.

I believe some obsessives have visited the hospital where Gerry McCann works, have visited the farm where Madeleine used to go with her mother, have shadowed him at the Houses of Parliament, have photographed Magpreleines siblings and put those photos on the internet.
None of this, nor what happened to you is acceptable.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 07:23:28 PM
I don't know who the top sceptic troll is and no I didn't know he/she had left a message on Brenda's son's page.  I have never seen it. So do we know if she knew Brenda? That I know nothing about and if she knew Brenda then she should have got in touch with her.

As a matter on interest how do you know Erngath?

Top sceptic troll makes it her business to know people's real-life identities & yes, Top Troll knew Brenda.

Why are you so interested about who I am or where I may know people from?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:24:07 PM
I believe some obsessives have visited the hospital where Gerry McCann works, have visited the farm where Madeleine used to go with her mother, have shadowed him at the Houses of Parliament, have photographed Magpreleines siblings and put those photos on the internet.
None of this, nor what happened to you is acceptable.
Didn’t someone recently tweet the McCanns whereabouts in a restaurant? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:24:11 PM
Some obsessive even visit PDL and take lots of photos and measurements around 5A
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 07:26:20 PM
      "On Twitter she uses the name Sweepy face ..." Martin Brunt ~ from the Sky News report.

So was her name Brenda Leyland Sweepy Face or was her name hidden and not apparent on twitter. Looking at the tweets I have posted earlier it would appear it was the latter Brietta.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 07:27:06 PM
Some obsessive even visit PDL and take lots of photos and measurements around 5A
Sounds like something to do one day.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:28:50 PM
Sounds like something to do one day.

Don't do it. No good can come of it
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 21, 2018, 07:36:46 PM
I’m sure you don’t have a problem with it, I posted it as an example of Brenda’s hatred, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you agreed with it.

B L was allowed her opinion of the mcns...if she hated them that is not a crime.

As for me agreeing with it - the mcns are absolutely  nothing to me.

LOL i wouldn't even waste my hate on them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 21, 2018, 07:39:15 PM
A few points Lace regarding your post. 

1)the dossier compiler/s did what they thought was right - How would you know if you were not at least aware of the dossier prior to it going to Sky etc.

2) Martin Brunt then [knowing who BL was as she had put her name on the internet]  - NO her name was not "all on the internet" in connection with sweepyface. It took a few other supporters to find out who she is and I have read the thread on how they found her. Martin Brunt was given her full name and that she lived in Leicester(shire)

3) Now I am sorry but journalists confront people in this way all the time,  they don't go out and take their life over it.  - They may confont people all the time but generally not right outside their house and give it a full rolling news every 30 minutes or so, plus the other media screaming TROLL at Brenda Leyland.

4) What about the boy who tweeted he was going to kill?  His fellow pupils ignored it thinking he was just a weirdo,  he went on to kill how do you think those children feel?   - So you think going to the media would save a person's life or wouldn't it be better to go straight to the police and bypass the outing of the person who made the tweets until after they were arrested.

5) BL decided to take her own life,  she had attempted it before,  no one is to blame IMO - you would say that wouldn't you.

I will answer you using the number for each question.

1.   I know as I watched the video of the person who handed the dossier in,  she said she couldn't live with herself if she hadn't of acted.   Didn't you see the video?

2.  BL was tweeting Sky news she wanted them to investigate her ideas of what happened to Madeleine,  did she use Sweepyface when she tweeted Sky news?

3.  It was up to Sky news whether they used the footage Martin Brunt took.

4.  I believe the dossier was taken to the Police.

5.  No one is to blame are the words of the coroner in summing up the death of BL.



snipped -   Brunt spoke to Brenda on the Wednesday night and explained what they would be doing. When asked by the coroner he said he hadn't detected anything in her voice at all. In the conversation she had said " Oh, I have thought about ending it all. But I am feeling better, I have spoken to my son in LA." There was a 10 minute conversation. Brunt said they wouldn't name her or identify the village. Martin Brunt had no serious concern about her (from her voice). She said it was a pleasure to meet you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 07:42:22 PM
Top sceptic troll makes it her business to know people's real-life identities & yes, Top Troll knew Brenda.

Why are you so interested about who I am or where I may know people from?

I didn't ask you Misty I asked Erngath and that was only because I hadn't heard of it before. I don't even know who this top troll is. I don't care who you or erngath is to be fair. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 07:42:36 PM
I believe some obsessives have visited the hospital where Gerry McCann works, have visited the farm where Madeleine used to go with her mother, have shadowed him at the Houses of Parliament, have photographed Magpreleines siblings and put those photos on the internet.
None of this, nor what happened to you is acceptable.

The case seems to have attracted some people who are prone to becoming obsessed and emotionally involved. I can see similarities with those who become obsessed with pop stars or royalty. The difference lies in the emotional reaction; extreme adulation v extreme dislike.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:47:23 PM
I will answer you using the number for each question.

1.   I know as I watched the video of the person who handed the dossier in,  she said she couldn't live with herself if she hadn't of acted.  Didn't you see the video?

2.  BL was tweeting Sky news she wanted them to investigate her ideas of what happened to Madeleine,  did she use Sweepyface when she tweeted Sky news?

3.  It was up to Sky news whether they used the footage Martin Brunt took.

4.  I believe the dossier was taken to the Police.

5.  No one is to blame are the words of the coroner in summing up the death of BL.



snipped -   Brunt spoke to Brenda on the Wednesday night and explained what they would be doing. When asked by the coroner he said he hadn't detected anything in her voice at all. In the conversation she had said " Oh, I have thought about ending it all. But I am feeling better, I have spoken to my son in LA." There was a 10 minute conversation. Brunt said they wouldn't name her or identify the village. Martin Brunt had no serious concern about her (from her voice). She said it was a pleasure to meet you.

No, where can this video be viewed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 07:48:19 PM
I didn't ask you Misty I asked Erngath and that was only because I hadn't heard of it before. I don't even know who this top troll is. I don't care who you or erngath is to be fair.

I've never heard of this person either, Sunny. Then again I've never been interested in this 'who's who' game. I'm more interested in researching 'what's what'.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 07:48:49 PM
Some obsessive even visit PDL and take lots of photos and measurements around 5A


Please note that I accepted Faithlillys post as being true.
Didn't ask for a cite.
No reason to disbelieve her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 07:50:15 PM
But how do you know they contacted “the poor girl”’s employer?

Why would the supporter threaten if they weren’t going to follow through ? What would they have to gain ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 21, 2018, 07:51:03 PM

Please note that I accepted Faithlillys post as being true.
Didn't ask for a cite.
No reason to disbelieve her.

Good for you. What relevance does that have to my post that you quoted ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 07:51:27 PM
B L was allowed her opinion of the mcns...if she hated them that is not a crime.

As for me agreeing with it - the mcns are absolutely  nothing to me.

LOL i wouldn't even waste my hate on them.

So you reserve hate for whom?
Best not to have hate for anyone.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 07:52:00 PM
B L was allowed her opinion of the mcns...if she hated them that is not a crime.

As for me agreeing with it - the mcns are absolutely  nothing to me.

LOL i wouldn't even waste my hate on them.
Did I say she wasn’t allowed an opinon? No.  Did I say her hate was a crime?  No.  The McCanns are clearly beneath your contempt, thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 07:56:26 PM
Did I say she wasn’t allowed an opinon? No.  Did I say her hate was a crime?  No.  The McCanns are clearly beneath your contempt, thanks for clarifying.
Something seen clearly shouldn't need clarifying.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 07:57:06 PM

Please note that I accepted Faithlillys post as being true.
Didn't ask for a cite.
No reason to disbelieve her.

Perhaps because you know what I said is true ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 21, 2018, 07:58:20 PM
I will answer you using the number for each question.

1.   I know as I watched the video of the person who handed the dossier in,  she said she couldn't live with herself if she hadn't of acted.   Didn't you see the video? - OK yes I see what you mean Lace

2.  BL was tweeting Sky news she wanted them to investigate her ideas of what happened to Madeleine,  did she use Sweepyface when she tweeted Sky news? - She didn't tweet using her name Brenda Leyland. Martin Brunt was given that by someone else.

3.  It was up to Sky news whether they used the footage Martin Brunt took. - True.

4.  I believe the dossier was taken to the Police. - That doesn't answer my question regarding your quote about the boy tweeting about killing people at all.  Any sensible person would not take it to the media they would simply take it to the police and quickly at that.

5.  No one is to blame are the words of the coroner in summing up the death of BL. - That is a matter of opinion IMO.



snipped -   Brunt spoke to Brenda on the Wednesday night and explained what they would be doing. When asked by the coroner he said he hadn't detected anything in her voice at all. In the conversation she had said " Oh, I have thought about ending it all. But I am feeling better, I have spoken to my son in LA." There was a 10 minute conversation. Brunt said they wouldn't name her or identify the village. Martin Brunt had no serious concern about her (from her voice). She said it was a pleasure to meet you.

Was the last paragraph to show that Brenda was fine about it? She may have expected the usual rogue trader type exposure not the rolling news item regularly all day on Sky followed by the Daily Mail etc all calling her a troll some evil troll, giving her name and village out and interviewing her friends etc and this going on solid for 3 days.   Is it any wonder she cracked?

Video of dossier representative
https://news.sky.com/story/evil-trolls-in-hate-campaign-against-mccanns-10387832
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 07:59:11 PM
Perhaps because you know what I said is true ?

I accept it as true.
Why would I know it to be true?
I hope you are not suggesting that I have any reason to KNOW it is true??

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 08:02:30 PM
I accept it as true.
I just would like that trust to be reciprocated.
Trust would be earned.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 08:03:59 PM
Trust would be earned.

Fortunately in real life my trust in those I know has always been well deserved.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 08:53:49 PM
Why would the supporter threaten if they weren’t going to follow through ? What would they have to gain ?
Are you suggesting that all threats made on twitter are carried through?  Then no wonder the dossier compilers had cause for concern!  I take it you are only speculating that this”poor girl’s” employer was contacted then...?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 09:09:02 PM
Are you suggesting that all threats made on twitter are carried through?  Then no wonder the dossier compilers had cause for concern!  I take it you are only speculating that this”poor girl’s” employer was contacted then...?

Why would they threaten ? To intimidate? Why ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2018, 09:50:02 PM
Why would they threaten ? To intimidate? Why ?

They clearly had not thought it through very well.
In the real world one of two things would happen.
Any company fielding such a letter or phone call would pass it to the police were a name were given [ho ho]
or; chuck it in the bin/forget it if no name were given.
"They" [whomsoever "they" are] appear to have delusions of grandeur.
One concludes they only prepared to deal with those who are vulnerable.
Sez it all really.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 09:53:28 PM
Was the last paragraph to show that Brenda was fine about it? She may have expected the usual rogue trader type exposure not the rolling news item regularly all day on Sky followed by the Daily Mail etc all calling her a troll some evil troll, giving her name and village out and interviewing her friends etc and this going on solid for 3 days.   Is it any wonder she cracked?

Video of dossier representative
https://news.sky.com/story/evil-trolls-in-hate-campaign-against-mccanns-10387832

I remember watching throughout the day as the item about Brenda was continually broadcast and dissected in great detail by the usual commentators. It was appalling to watch if I'm honest, I really felt for her.  Garbage television at its worst IMO, it had the whiff of The News of the World about it.  I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the former editor Rebekah Brooks had her grubby paws all over it too, her connections with the McCanns are well known.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rebekah-brooks-accused-of-bullying-government-over-mccanns-7737611.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 21, 2018, 10:00:18 PM
Are you suggesting that all threats made on twitter are carried through?  Then no wonder the dossier compilers had cause for concern!  I take it you are only speculating that this”poor girl’s” employer was contacted then...?


Rob said asking questions is goading.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 10:01:10 PM
They clearly had not thought it through very well.
In the real world one of two things would happen.
Any company fielding such a letter or phone call would pass it to the police were a name were given [ho ho]
or; chuck it in the bin/forget it if no name were given.
"They" [whomsoever "they" are] appear to have delusions of grandeur.
One concludes they only prepared to deal with those who are vulnerable.
Sez it all really.

There was allegedly an attempt to discredit/censor Enid O'Dowd by reporting her to her Professional body;

My report upset an unknown McCann supporter so much that he or she complained to my professional body, the ICEAW (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales). 

 This happened in November 2012 but I only learned of it recently when by chance I came across a post which the person concerned had made on the Internet.

 I was never contacted as the complaint did not meet the standards required by the ICEAW to warrant asking to hear my side of the story. The ICEAW reply to the complainant included the sentence:

‘Mrs O'Dowd is entitled to her opinions and views and freedom of speech’. 
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/106feb16/Enid_O_Dowd_01_02_2016.htm
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:05:08 PM

Rob said asking questions is goading.
Cite please
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 10:09:25 PM
I remember watching throughout the day as the item about Brenda was continually broadcast and dissected in great detail by the usual commentators. It was appalling to watch if I'm honest, I really felt for her.  Garbage television at its worst IMO, it had the whiff of The News of the World about it.  I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the former editor Rebekah Brooks had her grubby paws all over it too, her connections with the McCanns are well known.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rebekah-brooks-accused-of-bullying-government-over-mccanns-7737611.html

Is there a cite for the former editor Rebekah Brooks having her grubby paws all over it it too, or are you just allowed to say that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 21, 2018, 10:13:43 PM
Is there a cite for the former editor Rebekah Brooks having her grubby paws all over it it too, or are you just allowed to say that?

“I wouldn’t be in the least surprised....”
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:18:59 PM
Is there a cite for the former editor Rebekah Brooks having her grubby paws all over it it too, or are you just allowed to say that?
"I wouldn't be surprised ...." is a statement of opinion.  No cite is required.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 21, 2018, 10:22:37 PM
Cite please

Re: "Start by Asking Yourself What is a Supporter and Work on from There”
« Reply #330 on: Today at 09:41:31 PM »
Quote
Quote from: slartibartfast on Today at 09:34:51 PM
It’s a question?


You said
"Bordering on libel, bordering on goading, I think I was just letting everyone know they were bordering on goading.
Goading could be via questions, we had established that.

 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 10:23:44 PM
Why would they threaten ? To intimidate? Why ?
You’d have to ask the threateners why they do it, but yes, to intimidate I would imagine. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:27:44 PM
Re: "Start by Asking Yourself What is a Supporter and Work on from There”
« Reply #330 on: Today at 09:41:31 PM »
Quote
Quote from: slartibartfast on Today at 09:34:51 PM
It’s a question?


You said
"Bordering on libel, bordering on goading, I think I was just letting everyone know they were bordering on goading.
Goading could be via questions, we had established that.

 8**8:/:
"Goading could be via questions,"  is not the same as "Rob said asking questions is goading".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 10:34:09 PM
There was allegedly an attempt to discredit/censor Enid O'Dowd by reporting her to her Professional body;

My report upset an unknown McCann supporter so much that he or she complained to my professional body, the ICEAW (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales). 

 This happened in November 2012 but I only learned of it recently when by chance I came across a post which the person concerned had made on the Internet.

 I was never contacted as the complaint did not meet the standards required by the ICEAW to warrant asking to hear my side of the story. The ICEAW reply to the complainant included the sentence:

‘Mrs O'Dowd is entitled to her opinions and views and freedom of speech’. 
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/press/106feb16/Enid_O_Dowd_01_02_2016.htm

Didn’t Gerry contact the head of Yorkshire police to complain about Martin Grime ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 10:35:27 PM
You’d have to ask the threateners why they do it, but yes, to intimidate I would imagine.

So supporters go on Twitter to intimidate sceptics to do what, shut up ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2018, 10:35:53 PM
Is there a cite for the former editor Rebekah Brooks having her grubby paws all over it it too, or are you just allowed to say that?

You could read pages 94 to 105 of the official Leveson transcript of Mrs Brooks' evidence then draw your own conclusion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Didn’t Gerry contact the head of Yorkshire police to complain about Martin Grime ?
Was that just a random question?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 21, 2018, 10:40:12 PM
"Goading could be via questions,"  is not the same as "Rob said asking questions is goading".


It reads that way!  or are you just concerning yourself with questions being asked by non supporters?

Perhaps you could avail where a question is goading and where it isn't- any example would suffice.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 10:45:22 PM
Didn’t Gerry contact the head of Yorkshire police to complain about Martin Grime ?

He did contact him, but we weren't told why. Perhaps he wanted to thank him for sending his best dogs and their handler to help the investigation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 10:46:42 PM
Didn’t Gerry contact the head of Yorkshire police to complain about Martin Grime ?

Martin Grime wasn't working for SYP on 16/8/2007; he'd already retired.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 10:49:18 PM
So supporters go on Twitter to intimidate sceptics to do what, shut up ?
I have no idea if they ALL do, but it is certainly not a one way street with all the dozens of poor honest decent little sceptics being intimidated and threatened by a handful of supporters if that’s what you’re suggesting.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:50:29 PM

It reads that way!  or are you just concerning yourself with questions being asked by non supporters?

Perhaps you could avail where a question is goading and where it isn't- any example would suffice.
"I'm about to go out".  Here is an example "are you just concerning yourself with questions being asked by non supporters?"  You are questioning me whether I'm biased and hence not moderating fairly (hence goading).  I have no firm concepts of who is a supporter or non supporter.  I have a feeling most of your posts tend to be non-supporting.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 10:52:51 PM
Martin Grime wasn't working for SYP on 16/8/2007; he'd already retired.

From Martin Grime’s rogatory.


'At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case''
I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.’
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 10:54:54 PM
I have no idea if they ALL do, but it is certainly not a one way street with all the dozens of poor honest decent little sceptics being intimidated and threatened by a handful of supporters if that’s what you’re suggesting.

That didn’t answer my question.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2018, 10:57:04 PM
Martin Grime wasn't working for SYP on 16/8/2007; he'd already retired.

Why 16th August? Where is that recorded?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 21, 2018, 10:58:31 PM
From Martin Grime’s rogatory.


'At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case''
I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.’
So was that really a "yes" then? 
At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case?  "YES"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 10:59:01 PM
That didn’t answer my question.
How do you expect me, someone who doesn’t take part in twitter wars, to speak on behalf of supporters that do, pray tell me?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2018, 10:59:32 PM
I think we all should take responsibility for what we post and be prepared to justify it if necessary... It's just to easy to post anonymous abuse online.
Brenda had every right to hate the McCann's just as, we all have the right to hate anyone or any group... The problem arises when and how that hatred is expressed.

What Brenda did may not have been illegal but perhaps it should be... And if the police don't take action it's a normal procedure to take a greivance to the newspapers to highlight  the issue and get the law changed... I see a, lot of sympathy  for Brenda but I have far greater sympathy  for her target.... Far more sympathy for the McCanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 11:01:04 PM
From Martin Grime’s rogatory.


'At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case''
I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.’

Screenshot of the 2 calls made by Gerry on 16/8/07. Grime had retired by then so Hughes was no longer his supervisor. As Grime was a PC, there would have been other people below Hughes in the chain of command.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:04:55 PM
How do you expect me, someone who doesn’t take part in twitter wars, to speak on behalf of supporters that do, pray tell me?

Take a wild guess.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 11:11:20 PM
Take a wild guess.
It seems you’ve already decided what the answer is and want me to say it.  OK then.  Here’s a wild guess: All McCann supporters on twitter are only there to threaten poor little honest decent sceptics into silence, not for any other reason.  All they do all day long is threaten to call up sceptics employers to try and get them the sack.  If it’s not that, then they are threatening to go round to the poor little sceptics’ houses, smash down their front doors and take a hammer to their laptops.  Do you need cites for this, or are you satisfied with my answer? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 21, 2018, 11:14:43 PM
I think we all should take responsibility for what we post and be prepared to justify it if necessary... It's just to easy to post anonymous abuse online.
Brenda had every right to hate the McCann's just as, we all have the right to hate anyone or any group... The problem arises when and how that hatred is expressed.

What Brenda did may not have been illegal but perhaps it should be... And if the police don't take action it's a normal procedure to take a greivance to the newspapers to highlight  the issue and get the law changed... I see a, lot of sympathy  for Brenda but I have far greater sympathy  for her target.... Far more sympathy for the McCanns

Perhaps it should be against the law to leave your children alone every night to be 'abducted'. I do not have sympathy for the McCanns as their behaviour before, during and after their daughters disappearance was disgraceful imo. 

They have moved on with their lives despite their selfish behaviour. I feel sorry for Madeleine and all the other victims.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2018, 11:20:30 PM

Perhaps it should be against the law to leave your children alone every night to be 'abducted'. I do not have sympathy for the McCanns as their behaviour before, during and after their daughters disappearance was disgraceful imo. 

They have moved on with their lives despite their selfish behaviour. I feel sorry for Madeleine and all the other victims.

That's up to you... As I said.. My sympathies lie with the McCanns and I have explained  why. How many suicides, are we seeing from people who are victims of online abuse.. That's why it needs to be addressed and I support those who compiled the dossier and brought the abuse to light
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:22:35 PM
It seems you’ve already decided what the answer is and want me to say it.  OK then.  Here’s a wild guess: All McCann supporters on twitter are only there to threaten poor little honest decent sceptics into silence, not for any other reason.  All they do all day long is threaten to call up sceptics employers to try and get them the sack.  If it’s not that, then they are threatening to go round to the poor little sceptics’ houses, smash down their front doors and take a hammer to their laptops.  Do you need cites for this, or are you satisfied with my answer?

Yes, thank you.

So supporters use threats of exposure to intimidate sceptics into silence.

My what a murky world you supporters must inhabit.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2018, 11:24:24 PM
As regards.. Due process... Isnnt that exactly what BL and others, were denying the McCanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 21, 2018, 11:27:35 PM
That's up to you... As I said.. My sympathies lie with the McCanns and I have explained  why. How many suicides, are we seeing from people who are victims of online abuse.. That's why it needs to be addressed and I support those who compiled the dossier and brought the abuse to light


This alleged abuse had no impact on the McCanns as they didn't know about it as they don't do social media...are you suggesting supporters were so upset by the alledged abuse that they may have commited suicide?  how strange.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2018, 11:27:56 PM
Yes, thank you.

So supporters use threats of exposure to intimidate sceptics into silence.

My what a murky world you supporters must inhabit.
Indeed we do, we are a nest of Gollum-like creatures who live together in a stinky cave full of our own excrement, unlike sceptics who are so decent, so kind, so empathetic, so unthreatening, all these  endearing traits are there to be seen on the #mccann tag, with delightful comments like the ones I have already highlighted from Brenda herself, whose tweets are perfect examples of kindness, empathy and decency.   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 11:28:51 PM
Is there a cite for the former editor Rebekah Brooks having her grubby paws all over it it too, or are you just allowed to say that?

I didn't say she had, I said I wouldn't be surprised if she had (given her history with the McCann case).
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2018, 11:29:58 PM

This alleged abuse had no impact on the McCanns as they didn't know about it as they don't do social media...are you suggesting supporters were so upset by the alledged abuse that they may have commited suicide?  how strange.

I don't think you should make little of those driven to suicide by online abuse... That's most unkind... I believe  the abusive posts did affect the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 11:34:14 PM
I didn't say she had, I said I wouldn't be surprised if she had (given her history with the McCann case).

So no cite necessary, just I wouldn't be surprised.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 11:36:03 PM
So was that really a "yes" then? 
At any time, did Gerald McCann address, either in Portugal or the United Kingdom, the performance of the dogs in this case?  "YES"

That's pretty laughable, the suspect contacting the police to complain about the investigation.  This just gets more crazy by the day.  Was Gerry an expert dog handler then too?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 11:39:02 PM
I think we all should take responsibility for what we post and be prepared to justify it if necessary... It's just to easy to post anonymous abuse online.
Brenda had every right to hate the McCann's just as, we all have the right to hate anyone or any group... The problem arises when and how that hatred is expressed.

What Brenda did may not have been illegal but perhaps it should be... And if the police don't take action it's a normal procedure to take a greivance to the newspapers to highlight  the issue and get the law changed... I see a, lot of sympathy  for Brenda but I have far greater sympathy  for her target.... Far more sympathy for the McCanns

A good post davel.  I have more sympathy for Brenda though given that she died unnecessarily.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2018, 11:40:04 PM
That's pretty laughable, the suspect contacting the police to complain about the investigation.  This just gets more crazy by the day.  Was Gerry an expert dog handler then too?

I think as the PJ were completely misunderstanding  the alerts it was reasonable for Gerry to get advice from those who undrstood
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2018, 11:41:22 PM
Indeed we do, we are a nest of Gollum-like creatures who live together in a stinky cave full of our own excrement, unlike sceptics who are so decent, so kind, so empathetic, so unthreatening, all these  endearing traits are there to be seen on the #mccann tag, with delightful comments like the ones I have already highlighted from Brenda herself, whose tweets are perfect examples of kindness, empathy and decency.

My observation is that you are collectively more like the Yitai.
Look it up in the front of "Fate Is The Hunter" by Ernest Gann.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 11:42:07 PM
Indeed we do, we are a nest of Gollum-like creatures who live together in a stinky cave full of our own excrement, unlike sceptics who are so decent, so kind, so empathetic, so unthreatening, all these  endearing traits are there to be seen on the #mccann tag, with delightful comments like the ones I have already highlighted from Brenda herself, whose tweets are perfect examples of kindness, empathy and decency.

Faithlilly clearly hasn't followed Smiffy to his latest haunt........
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 21, 2018, 11:46:15 PM
A good post davel.  I have more sympathy for Brenda though given that she died unnecessarily.

All suicides are unnecessary.
Completely tragic.
I cannot imagine the pain of the family left behind.
Accidents and illness resulting in death, at least can be accepted but to know that a loved family member has chosen to take their own life must be a nightmare for their loved ones.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 21, 2018, 11:46:58 PM
As regards.. Due process... Isnnt that exactly what BL and others, were denying the McCanns

Actually I think they were hoping for due process, not denying it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:51:11 PM
I think as the PJ were completely misunderstanding  the alerts it was reasonable for Gerry to get advice from those who undrstood

So was Meredith Hughes an expert dog handler ? Or was Gerry actually complaining about one of his employees ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:51:52 PM
Faithlilly clearly hasn't followed Smiffy to his latest haunt........

Really ? I’m sure you can do better than that Misty.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 11:53:32 PM
So was Meredith Hughes an expert dog handler ? Or was Gerry actually complaining about one of his employees ?

Do you have a cite for Gerry making a complaint during the 2 telephone conversations please?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:54:00 PM
All suicides are unnecessary.
Completely tragic.
I cannot imagine the pain of the family left behind.
Accidents and illness resulting in death, at least can be accepted but to know that a loved family member has chosen to take their own life must be a nightmare for their loved ones.

What do you think Brenda’s sons think of the dossier compilers and supporters faux sympathy? I can just imagine the look of disgust on their faces.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 21, 2018, 11:55:13 PM
Do you have a cite for Gerry making a complaint during the 2 telephone conversations please?

What do you think he was talking about Misty ? Congratulating him on his wonderful dogs ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 21, 2018, 11:59:49 PM
What do you think he was talking about Misty ? Congratulating him on his wonderful dogs ?

Do you have a cite or not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 01:13:08 AM


He was doing his job, John,


Oh fgs. - you think that ok then to harass someone to imo death.

What about GA then - he was only doing his ...job.

Fair to say there i think B - a bit of double standerds going on there. imo
You are mistaken that Brenda Leyland was "harassed to death".  The inquest did not reach that conclusion.

As far as Amaral is concerned ... he was sacked from Madeleine's case.  Brunt is still working in his chosen field. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 02:15:23 AM
Didn’t someone recently tweet the McCanns whereabouts in a restaurant?

Photographed them and their children and immediately posted it while they were there ... with their exact location!

Why would anyone with even a modicum of common sense/decency actually do that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 02:24:42 AM
Some obsessive even visit PDL and take lots of photos and measurements around 5A

I know Faithlilly has claimed to have taken photographs in Luz ... and I know that quite a few of our forum members took advantage of Shining's residency to ask him to photograph particular areas of interest in the village.

Obsessive?  Perhaps? ... but a few of us post about Luz on a regular basis so it is helpful to get an idea of what we are talking about.
Then there is always Google earth as an obsessive's standby. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 02:33:11 AM
So was her name Brenda Leyland Sweepy Face or was her name hidden and not apparent on twitter. Looking at the tweets I have posted earlier it would appear it was the latter Brietta.
Did you miss Misty's post?

She posted as Sweepyface.
Martin Brunt identified her only with the name she used on Twitter ... which was Sweepyface.
Any of her twitter friends who wanted to show their support for her could have done so very easily using twitter ... did any of them bother?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 04:11:09 AM
Did you miss Misty's post?

She posted as Sweepyface.
Martin Brunt identified her only with the name she used on Twitter ... which was Sweepyface.
Any of her twitter friends who wanted to show their support for her could have done so very easily using twitter ... did any of them bother?
I'd be surprised if they didn't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 07:11:04 AM
That's pretty laughable, the suspect contacting the police to complain about the investigation.  This just gets more crazy by the day.  Was Gerry an expert dog handler then too?

Is this the cite

I never met nor spoken to Gerald McCann. However I do know that he addressed my head supervisor at the time, the South Yorkshire Head of Police, or Mr. Meredith Hughes.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

I doubt he was contacting Martin Grimes superior to compliment him.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 07:11:25 AM
I know Faithlilly has claimed to have taken photographs in Luz ... and I know that quite a few of our forum members took advantage of Shining's residency to ask him to photograph particular areas of interest in the village.

Obsessive?  Perhaps? ... but a few of us post about Luz on a regular basis so it is helpful to get an idea of what we are talking about.
Then there is always Google earth as an obsessive's standby.

Who is obsessed with Google Earth?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 07:28:43 AM
Did you miss Misty's post?

She posted as Sweepyface.
Martin Brunt identified her only with the name she used on Twitter ... which was Sweepyface.


I have snipped from your longer post Brietta (sorry).

No Martin Brunt did NOT just know her twitter name Sweepyface he was given her name and that she lived in Leicester(shire).  He didn't find her himself.

How many times do I need to say this? Her details were fed to the media by someone, who clearly wanted her named and shamed so to speak. IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 07:45:33 AM
Opinion ought to read like it is opinion not fact.  IMO or I think or some variant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 07:46:09 AM
Did you miss Misty's post?

She posted as Sweepyface.
Martin Brunt identified her only with the name she used on Twitter ... which was Sweepyface.
Any of her twitter friends who wanted to show their support for her could have done so very easily using twitter ... did any of them bother?

Timeline:

29/09/14. Sweepyface stops tweeting and deletes account
01/10/14. Doorstepped.
04/10/14. Found dead.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:26:51 AM
I have snipped from your longer post Brietta (sorry).

No Martin Brunt did NOT just know her twitter name Sweepyface he was given her name and that she lived in Leicester(shire).  He didn't find her himself.

How many times do I need to say this? Her details were fed to the media by someone, who clearly wanted her named and shamed so to speak. IMO

[That is opinion Sunny]
I for one see nothing wrong with the compilation of the dossier and the handing of it to the police, and press... Abuse online needs to be addressed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 08:34:24 AM
Timeline:

29/09/14. Sweepyface stops tweeting and deletes account
01/10/14. Doorstepped.
04/10/14. Found dead.

Brenda Leyland was found dead days after being accused on Sky News of trolling the parents of Madeleine McCann. Since then thousands of tweets from her deleted Twitter account have emerged.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.bb9jxaxjQ#.shz8BvB8Y
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 08:56:21 AM
Brenda Leyland was found dead days after being accused on Sky News of trolling the parents of Madeleine McCann. Since then thousands of tweets from her deleted Twitter account have emerged.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.bb9jxaxjQ#.shz8BvB8Y

Is that agreement of the timeline or an attempt to suggest it is incorrect?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 09:26:14 AM
I for one see nothing wrong with the compilation of the dossier and the handing of it to the police, and press... Abuse online needs to be addressed

There are procedures for dealing with online abuse and doorstepping vulnerable pensioners isn't one of them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 09:29:23 AM
Posters are reminded that this is a discussion forum with rules. Comments should be constructive and polite at all times.  Goading, snide remarks and abuse will not be tolerated. TY
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:32:24 AM
There are procedures for dealing with online abuse and doorstepping vulnerable pensioners isn't one of them.

The procedures don't seem to be working so it's, reasonable to go to the press ti change things
We could say that Brenda should have left it to the police Re the McCann's rather than get involved with an online campaign  directed at them...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 09:34:53 AM
Is that agreement of the timeline or an attempt to suggest it is incorrect?

Please note the link underneath my post which is missing from yours
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 09:44:25 AM
Please note the link underneath my post which is missing from yours

Can you be a little less mysterious and let me know what your point is?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think it's important  to remember that as regards the dossier Brenda, was not the victim.. She was one of the perpetrators... The McCann's were the victims
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 09:48:03 AM
I think it's important  to remember that as regards the dossier Brenda, was not the victim.. She was one of the perpetrators... The McCann's were the victims

In the same way Madeleine was the victim...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:51:05 AM
In the same way Madeleine was the victim...

Of course Madeleine was a victim... And so are her family.. Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 09:51:43 AM
Of course Madeleine was s victim... And so are her family.. Imo

And so was Brenda Leyland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:52:11 AM
And so was Brenda Leyland.

Victim of what
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 09:52:36 AM
I think it's important  to remember that as regards the dossier Brenda, was not the victim.. She was one of the perpetrators... The McCann's were the victims

Actually they weren't 'victims', they were targets as was BL.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 09:54:47 AM
Of course Madeleine was a victim... And so are her family.. Imo

That is yet to be determined by the Portuguese investigation. Nobody yet knows what happened to Madeleine, who was involved and who was behind what later took place.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:55:31 AM
Actually they weren't 'victims', they were targets as was BL.

I don't think it's unreasonable to refer to them as victims... There seems to be a concerted effort to sanitise Brendas actions...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:57:26 AM
That is yet to be determined by the Portuguese investigation. Nobody yet knows what happened to Madeleine, who was involved and who was behind what later took place.

That's, why I have to put imo but IMO it's almost certain Maddie was the victim of an abductor... Most likely from inside the apartment ..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:02:00 AM
I think it's important  to remember that as regards the dossier Brenda, was not the victim.. She was one of the perpetrators... The McCann's were the victims

Misuse of the internet is becoming more and more of a major problem with the abuse rate being numbered in thousands ... it is recognised in parliament and is the subject of many reports and academic studies.

It is ironic that the plight of victims many of whom are teenagers who feel driven to kill themselves as a result is superseded by the mess a perpetrator found herself in as a direct result of her obsession with Madeleine's parents.

Brenda Leyland was not a case of mistaken identity ... she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family with thousands of posts over a long period.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:07:28 AM
Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?  Looking at the timeline she made that rather difficult to achieve.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:08:09 AM
Misuse of the internet is becoming more and more of a major problem with the abuse rate being numbered in thousands ... it is recognised in parliament and is the subject of many reports and academic studies.

It is ironic that the plight of victims many of whom are teenagers who feel driven to kill themselves as a result is superseded by the mess a perpetrator found herself in as a direct result of her obsession with Madeleine's parents.

Brenda Leyland was not a case of mistaken identity ... she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family with thousands of posts over a long period.

So you think she shouldn’t have been allowed to severely criticise the McCanns?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:08:58 AM
That is yet to be determined by the Portuguese investigation. Nobody yet knows what happened to Madeleine, who was involved and who was behind what later took place.

The PJ have said the McCann's, are not suspects... Rowley has said maddie was abducted... Sutton said the McCanns are not being investigated... Could it be any clearer
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:11:12 AM
Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?  Looking at the timeline she made that rather difficult to achieve.
Do you have a cite for the timeline?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 10:12:07 AM
The PJ have said the McCann's, are not suspects... Rowley has said madduecwas abducted... Suttin said the McCann's are not being investigated... Could ut be any clearer

lol yes if you stop the cryptic in your post.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:12:21 AM
So you think she shouldn’t have been allowed to severely criticise the McCanns?

she was doing a lot more than that  imo...she was part of a campaign spreading hatred towards the mccanns .......a word she used herself...up to 50 tweets a day
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:14:56 AM
Do you have a cite for the timeline?

It was in the link you posted.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:16:43 AM
she was doing a lot more than that  imo...she was part of a campaign spreading hatred towards the mccanns .......a word she used herself...up to 50 tweets a day

In response to now deleted tweets.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:18:32 AM
In response the now deleted tweets.

I can't understand how anyone can support her awful behaviour... She was, ashamed of it herself it seems
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:19:06 AM
It was in the link you posted.
So the one you posted ~ minus a cite ~ is false?  Have you amended it in line with forum policy or have you allowed misinformation to stand?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:20:53 AM
Do you have a cite for the timeline?
It was posted on the forum.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:21:16 AM
So the one you posted ~ minus a cite ~ is false?  Have you amended it in line with forum policy or have you allowed misinformation to stand?

Please point out where it is false.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:24:23 AM
It was posted on the forum.
I knew that Robitty ... but if you used the post I think you may have for reference, I believe the information it contained was wrong.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 10:24:53 AM
Misuse of the internet is becoming more and more of a major problem with the abuse rate being numbered in thousands ... it is recognised in parliament and is the subject of many reports and academic studies.

It is ironic that the plight of victims many of whom are teenagers who feel driven to kill themselves as a result is superseded by the mess a perpetrator found herself in as a direct result of her obsession with Madeleine's parents.

Brenda Leyland was not a case of mistaken identity ... she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family with thousands of posts over a long period.

Her obsession with Madeleine’s parents ? From the Guardian

‘The inquest heard between November 2013 and September 2014, using the Twitter ID @sweepyface, she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard.’

So less than a quarter of her tweets mentioned the McCanns. To date you have chalked up over 13,000 posts, a great many more than a quarter mentioning the McCanns I’d warrant, so it would appear you have a bit of an obsession yourself. Just because your posts are supportive of the McCanns doesn’t make your behaviour any less obsessive.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:25:24 AM
I knew that Robitty ... but if you used the post I think you may have for reference, I believe the information it contained was wrong.

Again, please point out where it is wrong.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 22, 2018, 10:25:46 AM
this thread isnt about the mcanns it is about brenda  it is not about their  innocence  or lack of innocence  brenda was treated badly by sky news and some supporters and thats IMHO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:26:41 AM
Her obsession with Madeleine’s parents ? From the Guardian

‘The inquest heard between November 2013 and September 2014, using the Twitter ID @sweepyface, she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard.’

So less than a quarter of her tweets mentioned the McCanns. To date you have chalked up over 13,000 posts, a great many more than a quarter mentioning the McCanns I’d warrant, so it would appear you have a bit of an obsession yourself. Just because your posts are supportive of the McCanns doesn’t make your behaviour any less obsessive.
You've got "mentioned" but also "alluded to" and "referred to".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:30:07 AM
I knew that Robitty ... but if you used the post I think you may have for reference, I believe the information it contained was wrong.
Personally I have no idea if it was right or wrong but just the short time between the doorstepping and  the suicide is surprising.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 10:31:47 AM
she was doing a lot more than that  imo...she was part of a campaign spreading hatred towards the mccanns .......a word she used herself...up to 50 tweets a day

why wont you accept not everyone like the mccanns -  or what they did.

How is it a campaign.

No one knows yet what happened to maddie
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:32:14 AM
You've got "mentioned" but also "alluded to" and "referred to".

You get the squabbles on here, supporters having a go at sceptics and sceptics having a go at supporters. Some would probably like to represent all the sceptics posts as being anti McCann whereas most of them are just against arguments put forward by supporters. The whole Brenda Leyland and her twitter opponents was similar IMO but a lot more robust.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:33:00 AM
Last time the subject was discussed the point was raised that Brenda committed suicide on her estranged sons birthday...which is strange...it might suggest a different reason for her suicide
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:34:40 AM
I knew that Robitty ... but if you used the post I think you may have for reference, I believe the information it contained was wrong.
Would it be out by a week or just a day?  How much out was it? 
It shouldn't be hard to see when Brunt doorstepped her and when her death occurred.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:37:44 AM
Would it be out by a week or just a day?  How much out was it? 
It shouldn't be hard to see when Brunt doorstepped her and when her death occurred.

Agreed, if my dates were wrong someone please say so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:41:23 AM
Personally I have no idea if it was right or wrong but just the short time between the doorstepping and  the suicide is surprising.
There was a very short time between both ... but no cite given as yet to substantiate the date when Brenda closed her account.

What might have caused her to do that at just that moment in time do you think?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
Last time the subject was discussed the point was raised that Brenda committed suicide on her estranged sons birthday...which is strange...it might suggest a different reason for her suicide

Or then again it might not.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 22, 2018, 10:44:06 AM
Would it be out by a week or just a day?  How much out was it? 
It shouldn't be hard to see when Brunt doorstepped her and when her death occurred.

According to this, she was confronted by Brunt on Wednesday and died on the Saturday

http://thetruthseekersguide.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-strange-case-of-brenda-leyland_8.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:45:27 AM
why wont you accept not everyone like the mccanns -  or what they did.

How is it a campaign.

No one knows yet what happened to maddie

Please note ... a libellous statement cannot be posted even if an imo is added ... it is still libel
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:45:55 AM
Or then again it might not.


it seems a very strange thing to do....commit suicide on your estranged sons birthday.....how can he ever enjoy a birthday again... It seems quite a cruel thing to do
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:46:51 AM
Agreed, if my dates were wrong someone please say so.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/20/sky-news-mccann-brenda-leyland
"Sky News offers condolences to family of Brenda Leyland, who was found dead in a Leicester hotel two days after channel broadcast footage of her"

So it is possible they held the footage for a while. 

"On 30 September she was approached by Brunt and a cameraman outside her village home in Burton Overy, Leicestershire, after the journalist was given a dossier containing details of people allegedly posting abusive tweets about Kate and Gerry McCann, whose daughter Madeleine disappeared in Portugal in 2007. Leyland had posted or reposted more than 400 tweets about the McCanns, the inquest heard.

"Leyland was found dead in a hotel room in Leicester on 4 October last year, two days after Brunt’s report aired on Sky."

So the report seems to have been delayed for 2 days before it was aired.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:51:34 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/20/sky-news-mccann-brenda-leyland
"Sky News offers condolences to family of Brenda Leyland, who was found dead in a Leicester hotel two days after channel broadcast footage of her"

So it is possible they held the footage for a while. 

"On 30 September she was approached by Brunt and a cameraman outside her village home in Burton Overy, Leicestershire, after the journalist was given a dossier containing details of people allegedly posting abusive tweets about Kate and Gerry McCann, whose daughter Madeleine disappeared in Portugal in 2007. Leyland had posted or reposted more than 400 tweets about the McCanns, the inquest heard.

"Leyland was found dead in a hotel room in Leicester on 4 October last year, two days after Brunt’s report aired on Sky."

So the report seems to have been delayed for 2 days before it was aired.

The date in question and the cite required is for the suspension of Brenda Leyland's twitter account.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 10:52:53 AM
it seems a very strange thing to do....commit suicide on your estranged sons birthday.....how can he ever enjoy a birthday again... It seems quite a cruel thing to do

I’m sure he’ll never forgive those who put his Mum in such a position in the first place.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 10:54:25 AM
There was a very short time between both ... but no cite given as yet to substantiate the date when Brenda closed her account.

What might have caused her to do that at just that moment in time do you think?

From your link...maybe you missed it.

Quote
On 29 September, five days before she died, Leyland tweeted that Brunt had started following her on Twitter.
This was the day she stopped tweeting and appears to also have been when the @Sweepyface account was deleted.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 10:56:34 AM
Last time the subject was discussed the point was raised that Brenda committed suicide on her estranged sons birthday...which is strange...it might suggest a different reason for her suicide

Oh my isn't it tragic enough -  without insinuating an ulterior motive.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:57:02 AM
I’m sure he’ll never forgive those who put his Mum in such a position in the first place.

I think we would need to know more about their relationship  before being sure of anything... You are making assumptions.. It could well be it was the breakdown of their relationship and the fact she would have no contact with her son on his birthday that triggered the suicide
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2018, 10:57:17 AM
From your link...maybe you missed it.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:57:33 AM
Oh my isn't it tragic enough -  without insinuating an ulterior motive.

It's a discussion  forum
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 11:02:13 AM
I think we would need to know more about their relationship  before being sure of anything... You are making assumptions.. It could well be it was the breakdown of their relationship and the fact she would have no contact with her son on his birthday that triggered the suicide

Nothing evidenced at the inquest suggested her estrangement with her son caused her suicide so I think it is you Whois making assumptions.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 11:02:57 AM
I will change the doorstepping date to 30/09/14. One source said Wednesday which would have been 01/10/14, however inquest says 30th. Apologies.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:03:05 AM
Nothing evidenced at the inquest suggested her estrangement with her son caused her suicide so I think it is you Whois making assumptions.
The evidence is the birthday

You said you are sure..
I said it may well be

I'm making no assumptions
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 11:07:02 AM
It's a discussion  forum

Ok then - was there anything to suggest there was a reason BL committed suicide on her sons birthday.

have you got something to back up -  there was a reason.

The state the poor woman was in she probably didn't even realise what day it was.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:08:15 AM
Ok then - was there anything to suggest there was a reason BL committed suicide on her sons birthday.

have you got something to back up -  there was a reason.

The state the poor woman was in she probably didn't even realise what day it was.

Her suicide was it, seems carefully planned ...and it was her estranged sons birthday... Estranged being the possible reason
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 22, 2018, 11:10:14 AM
I saw a slogan last night which is being circulated by suicide awareness.
I can't remember the quote exactly but the jist of it was
Suicide doesn't end the pain, the pain is just given to someone else.


Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 11:10:44 AM
The evidence is the birthday

You said you are sure..
I said it may well be

I'm making no assumptions


No you are making something out of nothing.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:11:46 AM

No you are making something out of nothing.

Iyo.... I don't think I am...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 22, 2018, 11:12:21 AM

No you are making something out of nothing.

Don't think so.
It must have been very painful for her to not have any contact with her son.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2018, 11:18:34 AM
Where is an emoticon depicting honking in a bucket over all the self righteous indignation expressed by the supporters ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:21:12 AM
Where is an emoticon depicting honking in a bucket over all the self righteous indignation expressed by the supporters ?

I see lots of self rightous indignation from sceptics... But I don't really do emoticons
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 11:25:30 AM
Don't think so.
It must have been very painful for her to not have any contact with her son.


Oh fgs the estranged will probably mean - he lived in los angelos.

Maybe his age might be a clue as well

Bens tribute to his mum. notice no apology for anything.

Ben had earlier paid tribute to his mother,

writing on Twitter: “I am love and I am light, thanks to you.

"I love you mum and I will miss you forever.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 22, 2018, 11:29:06 AM

Oh fgs the estranged will probably mean - he lived in los angelos.

Maybe his age might be a clue as well

Bens tribute to his mum. notice no apology for anything.

Ben had earlier paid tribute to his mother,

writing on Twitter: “I am love and I am light, thanks to you.

"I love you mum and I will miss you forever.

I believe she had two sons.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 11:36:18 AM
The evidence is the birthday

You said you are sure..
I said it may well be

I'm making no assumptions


Seems you don't understand the evidence D

Can you imagine the state her mind must have been in

the last thing on her mind would have been her sons birthday.




There are decisions to be made and you may be surprised that it rarely has to do with how the ones that love you will feel when you leave them behind. The reason why this isn’t considered is because people that are willing to commit to suicide rarely feel anything anymore.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 11:37:19 AM
I believe she had two sons.

She did...and
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:38:08 AM
supporters will blame  anybody but their  beloved    mcanns and them selves

The McCann's are in no way to blame for Brendas death... Neither are the dossier compilers
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:38:47 AM

Oh fgs the estranged will probably mean - he lived in los angelos.

Maybe his age might be a clue as well

Bens tribute to his mum. notice no apology for anything.

Ben had earlier paid tribute to his mother,

writing on Twitter: “I am love and I am light, thanks to you.

"I love you mum and I will miss you forever.

Yet nothing from her estranged son
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:40:48 AM

Seems you don't understand the evidence D

Can you imagine the state her mind must have been in

the last thing on her mind would have been her sons birthday.




There are decisions to be made and you may be surprised that it rarely has to do with how the ones that love you will feel when you leave them behind. The reason why this isn’t considered is because people that are willing to commit to suicide rarely feel anything anymore.

She was under pressure from the, results of her tweets... With no family to support her... The fact that she was estranged from her son on his birthday may well have tipped her over the edge... Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:42:29 AM

Seems you don't understand the evidence D

Can you imagine the state her mind must have been in

the last thing on her mind would have been her sons birthday.




There are decisions to be made and you may be surprised that it rarely has to do with how the ones that love you will feel when you leave them behind. The reason why this isn’t considered is because people that are willing to commit to suicide rarely feel anything anymore.

That's mostly your opinion
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 22, 2018, 11:45:19 AM
She did...and

It wasn't the son you mention in your post
It was another son from whom she was estranged.
That must have caused her immense pain.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
Her suicide was it, seems carefully planned ...and it was her estranged sons birthday... Estranged being the possible reason

The searches for helium etc were after she was doorstepped. There is absolutely nothing to suggest she was thinking of taking her life before that time.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 11:51:26 AM
It wasn't the son you mention in your post
It was another son from whom she was estranged.
That must have caused her immense pain.

It must but I wonder on that weekend what was her greatest fear ? I believe she had been estranged from her son for some time without committing suicide however she had never been shamefully exposed on worldwide TV before.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 22, 2018, 11:53:20 AM
It must but I wonder on that weekend what was her greatest fear ? I believe she had been estranged from her son for some time without committing suicide however she had never been shamefully exposed on worldwide TV before.

She had attempted suicide before.
Long before she became the subject of Skynews.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 11:54:42 AM
The McCann's are in no way to blame for Brendas death... Neither are the dossier compilers

The McCanns are in no way to blame unless they or someone on their behest passed the dossier to Sky. The compilers are another matter and not because they compiled the dossier but because they singled out BL and specifically passed on her name to Brunt, who it would appear, is too stupid to know when he is being played.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 11:55:10 AM
She had attempted suicide before.
Long before she became the subject of Skynews.

Yes many years before but not since.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 11:55:54 AM
It must but I wonder on that weekend what was her greatest fear ? I believe she had been estranged from her son for some time without committing suicide however she had never been shamefully exposed on worldwide TV before.
If you and your posting history on the subject were exposed on national TV by a doorstepping journalist would you be ashamed or defiant?  Do you think you would be supported by your friends and family or shunned by everyone?  Just curious.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:56:51 AM
The McCanns are in no way to blame unless they or someone on their behest passed the dossier to Sky. The compilers are another matter and not because they compiled the dossier but because they singled out BL and specifically passed on her name to Brunt, who it would appear, is too stupid to know when he is being played.

I don't see anyone you mention to blame for Brendas death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:58:40 AM
Yes many years before but not since.

Her son said the sky incident  was the final straw... So what were the other things happening in her life, at that time
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 12:25:43 PM
That's mostly your opinion

Well her son who knew her best opinion was.


The court also heard evidence from her son Ben, who said he believed the confrontation had been the final straw.

In a statement, he said he believed she was "completely destroyed" by what had occurred.

He said he heard "panic and fear" in her voice when he spoke to her after the Sky interview.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 12:29:21 PM
Well her son who knew her best opinion was.


The court also heard evidence from her son Ben, who said he believed the confrontation had been the final straw.

In a statement, he said he believed she was "completely destroyed" by what had occurred.

He said he heard "panic and fear" in her voice when he spoke to her after the Sky interview.


He said it was the final straw... The final straw  is, a relatively small thing... So what were the other larger things happening... We don't know
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 12:31:53 PM
It wasn't the son you mention in your post
It was another son from whom she was estranged.
That must have caused her immense pain.

Only in your opinion.

You don't know what the circumstances was.

Or who estranged from who - unless you have a cite to back your post up E.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 12:36:54 PM
Only in your opinion.

You don't know what the circumstances was.

Or who estranged from who - unless you have a cite to back your post up E.
We don't have all the facts so it's, quite possible my suggestion is correct
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 12:41:18 PM
I think the words "final straw" should not be taken lightly.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 12:43:13 PM
He said it was the final straw... The final straw  is, a relatively small thing... So what were the other larger things happening... We don't know

No mention of larger things - seems to me an accumulation of smaller things like to do with the situation caused by brunt
 
phrase. If an event is the last straw or the straw that broke the camel's back, it is the latest in a series of unpleasant or undesirable events, and makes you feel that you cannot tolerate a situation any longer.


Or maybe tweets on here could have added to her anguish -  from mcns supporters.IMO


https://www.femalefirst.co.uk/womens-issues/brenda-leyland-wasnt-troll-didnt-deserve-die-544755.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 12:46:00 PM
We don't have all the facts so it's, quite possible my suggestion is correct


Possibly wrong as well.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 12:59:33 PM

Possibly wrong as well.

Yes, we don't know... But some think they do
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 22, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
Yes, we don't know... But some think they do

Ok D shall i be the adult and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 01:21:09 PM
Ok D shall i be the adult and leave it at that.
Yes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 22, 2018, 04:19:46 PM
I think the words "final straw" should not be taken lightly.

It is the one that breaks the camels back.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 04:29:28 PM
Misuse of the internet is becoming more and more of a major problem with the abuse rate being numbered in thousands ... it is recognised in parliament and is the subject of many reports and academic studies.

It is ironic that the plight of victims many of whom are teenagers who feel driven to kill themselves as a result is superseded by the mess a perpetrator found herself in as a direct result of her obsession with Madeleine's parents.

Brenda Leyland was not a case of mistaken identity ... she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family with thousands of posts over a long period.

Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family" please Brietta as I have seen she had a facebook page and may have been a member of forums on many other topics for all we know.

Of course Brietta I have read some really horrendous trolling posts on both sides of this case so perhaps you would like the perpetrators from the supporter side to be charged by the police too?

Do we know if there were any supporter tweets, posts in the dossier sent to the police....sorry of course there weren't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 04:33:28 PM
It is the one that breaks the camels back.

When the camel is already overloaded... Otherwise the straw, would be of no consequence
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 05:04:36 PM
Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family" please Brietta as I have seen she had a facebook page and may have been a member of forums on many other topics for all we know.

Of course Brietta I have read some really horrendous trolling posts on both sides of this case so perhaps you would like the perpetrators from the supporter side to be charged by the police too?

Do we know if there were any supporter tweets, posts in the dossier sent to the police....sorry of course there weren't.

The dossier was Re abuse towards the McCann's... Not abuse on the net in general...

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 07:00:03 PM
The dossier was Re abuse towards the McCann's... Not abuse on the net in general...

So you do agree that some of your fellow supporters dish out abuse then.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 07:00:56 PM
Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family" please Brietta as I have seen she had a facebook page and may have been a member of forums on many other topics for all we know.

Of course Brietta I have read some really horrendous trolling posts on both sides of this case so perhaps you would like the perpetrators from the supporter side to be charged by the police too?

Do we know if there were any supporter tweets, posts in the dossier sent to the police....sorry of course there weren't.

Brietta just reminding you I am still awaiting my cite.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 07:04:01 PM
So you do agree that some of your fellow supporters dish out abuse then.

I dont have any fellow supporters......I only speak for myself...and you have failed to provide a cite for that I  post elsewhere
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 07:18:05 PM
If you and your posting history on the subject were exposed on national TV by a doorstepping journalist would you be ashamed or defiant?  Do you think you would be supported by your friends and family or shunned by everyone?  Just curious.

Oh I think if I was doorstepped by a journalist he would come off worse.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 07:19:26 PM
Oh I think if I was doorstepped by a journalist he would come off worse.

so you wouldnt follow due process
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 07:21:40 PM
so you wouldnt follow due process

What due process? The same ones that the dossier collectors did?   Some special supporters type weird due process that means you take evidence to the media not the police? That one Davel?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 07:26:21 PM
What due process? The same ones that the dossier collectors did?   Some special supporters type weird due process that means you take evidence to the media not the police? That one Davel?

you need to read the post I responded to and you might understand what due process.....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 07:30:24 PM
you need to read the post I responded to and you might understand what due process.....

And the post was
Oh I think if I was doorstepped by a journalist he would come off worse

So just what due process were you talking about davel?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 07:32:47 PM
And the post was
Oh I think if I was doorstepped by a journalist he would come off worse

So just what due process were you talking about davel?

so you dont understand what faith means by come off worse...does she mean she would report her to the police for harrassment...that due process
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 08:12:45 PM
He said it was the final straw... The final straw  is, a relatively small thing... So what were the other larger things happening... We don't know


Oh stop making it up as you go along. You are actually contradicting her son? The dossier was a trigger-end of!  feel proud and argue your corner, but it won't change a thing. A vulnerable woman was singled out- not those who actually DID threaten the McCanns alledgedly -oh no not them.

The death penalty was a sure big surprise for the dossier writers.. they were just expecting jail time!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:14:20 PM

Oh stop making it up as you go along. You are actually contradicting her son? The dossier was a trigger-end of!  feel proud and argue your corner, but it won't change a thing. A vulnerable woman was singled out- not those who actually DID threaten the McCanns alledgedly -oh no not them.

The death penalty was a sure big surprise for the dossier writers.. they were just expecting jail time!

a vulnerable woman was not singled out..lets start with the truth...no one knew  Brenda had a history of suicide and mental illness
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 08:18:39 PM
a vulnerable woman was not singled out..lets start with the truth...no one knew  Brenda had a history of suicide and mental illness

Firstly how would you know that? Secondly Brunt as he was given Brenda Leylands name and roughly where she lived would certainly know her age and that she lived alone.

To me she looked very vulnerable yet they didn't show her once on Sky they showed her dozens of times.

Do you think that was right DaveL?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 08:19:37 PM
a vulnerable woman was not singled out..lets start with the truth...no one knew  Brenda had a history of suicide and mental illness

Yes, you wouldn’t expect a journalist to do some research.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:22:22 PM
Firstly how would you know that? Secondly Brunt as he was given Brenda Leylands name and roughly where she lived would certainly know her age and that she lived alone.

To me she looked very vulnerable yet they didn't show her once on Sky they showed her dozens of times.

Do you think that was right DaveL?

I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2018, 08:25:07 PM
so you wouldnt follow due process

Yep!
Politely ask him  to leave my property.
After that it's his call.
Resonable force to eject an undesirable is OK.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:26:19 PM
Yep!
Politely ask him  to leave my property.
After that it's his call.
Resonable force to eject an undesirable is OK.

i cant imagine you dropping the nut
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 08:26:40 PM
I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims

What about online abuse against unknown people Davel or is your sympathy only for the McCanns?

I suppose you were one of the architects of the dossier then Davel as you seem to agree with in fact almost appear proud of it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:29:56 PM
What about online abuse against unknown people Davel or is your sympathy only for the McCanns?

I suppose you were one of the architects of the dossier then Davel as you seem to agree with in fact almost appear proud of it.

how can  there be online abuse against unknown people...they do not exist... I myself have been subject to vile abuse online...not related to this case...  my children asked me why poeple were being so mean to us..so i have a better understanding than most...I was not part of the dossier compilers but i fully support them
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 08:40:45 PM
so you wouldnt follow due process
It would be a process alright.  Something like mincing comes to mind.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:43:20 PM
It would be a process alright.  Something like mincing comes to mind.

then it would not be due process...its quite revealing how many posters claim to support due process but when it came to their own situation...wouldnt give it the time of day...hypocrisy again
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 08:45:31 PM
then it would not be due process...its quite revealing how many posters claim to support due process but when it came to their own situation...wouldnt give it the time of day...hypocrisy again
That is the rapid "due Process" rather than the drawn out due process.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:47:33 PM
That is the rapid "due Process" rather than the drawn out due process.

so the dossier compilers have every right to ignore the standard due process that faith has proposed ...if I could be so bold ...that is the idiots view...if you start assaulting journalists it si you who will end up in the dock...and i have been doorstepped
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 22, 2018, 08:50:03 PM
Oh I think if I was doorstepped by a journalist he would come off worse.

In the BBC guidelines, it is emphasised that it can be a risky tactic and dangerous for the journalist , so a thorough risk assessment must be made.

Quote
This activity can present a significant safety risk, especially if the subject is contentious and/or the target interviewee confrontational. It may provoke an aggressive or even a violent response, not only from the target but also from their family, friends and colleagues. The target may try to avoid being interviewed by either taking refuge or escaping on foot or by vehicle, which may create a collateral damage risk.

Also, tensions can be heightened if there is a media scrum to be first to get an interview.

What Can Go Wrong?
Physical attack to crew aiming to injure persons or damage camera equipment.
Injury from weapons (firearms. knives), projectiles (bricks), clubs, high pressure hose pipes etc.
Injury from animals such as dogs, horses etc.
Injury from vehicles caused by erratic and/or fast driving.
Injuries from entanglement with other crews or others at the location.
Getting cornered or unable to escape from threatening situations.
Verbal threats or abuse.


I don't find it particularly surprising that Brunt and his crew chose to track down a single, elderly lady living alone.

This is from Offcom guidelines ;

"Doorstepping for factual programmes should not take place unless a request for an interview has been refused, or it has not been possible to request an interview"

 Brunt had a means of contacting Brenda through twitter, had he tried to arrange an interview? It doesn't look like it. He and his employer tried to argue it was in 'the public interest' but who's interest did outing someone for expressing lawful opinions serve?  Can anyone find any examples of Brunt doorstepping any private individual in his long career?

Some might argue that it would be in the public interest to confront some of the last people to see Madeleine over police statements made about them allegedly being involved in child abuse. Or maybe someone in the Leicestershire police could be confronted about not passing that statement on immediately to the officers in an ongoing missing child case that has cost the taxpayer 12 million.
Questions about disturbing statements not passed on really would tick the boxes of 'public interest'.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
In the BBC guidelines, it is emphasised that it can be a risky tactic and dangerous for the journalist , so a thorough risk assessment must be made.


I don't find it particularly surprising that Brunt and his crew chose to track down a single, elderly lady living alone.

This is from Offcom guidelines ;

"Doorstepping for factual programmes should not take place unless a request for an interview has been refused, or it has not been possible to request an interview"

 Brunt had a means of contacting Brenda through twitter, had he tried to arrange an interview? It doesn't look like it. He and his employer tried to argue it was in 'the public interest' but who's interest did outing someone for expressing lawful opinions serve?  Can anyone find any examples of Brunt doorstepping any private individual in his long career?

Some might argue that it would be in the public interest to confront some of the last people to see Madeleine over police statements made about them allegedly being involved in child abuse. Or maybe someone in the Leicestershire police could be confronted about not passing that statement on immediately to the officers in an ongoing missing child case that has cost the taxpayer 12 million.
Questions about disturbing statements not passed on really would tick the boxes of 'public interest'.

I have sympathy with the victims of online abuse but none with the perpertrators...none whatsoever
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 22, 2018, 08:52:16 PM
I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims

The problem with that is that it's subjective. People saying 'vile' stuff or calling you names isn't unlawful.

 Please provide a cite for Brenda being an 'abuser'. The police found no laws broken in 80 pages of the dossier.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 08:53:57 PM
I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims

No you don't. You have abused Amaral and Brenda and called sceptics mentally ill for not agreeing with you!   Selective abuse is what you want dealt with.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 08:57:33 PM
Yep!
Politely ask him  to leave my property.
After that it's his call.
Resonable force to eject an undesirable is OK.

That raincoat in itself is offensive!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 08:58:32 PM
No you don't. You have abused Amaral and Brenda and called sceptics mentally ill for not agreeing with you!   Selective abuse is what you want dealt with.
Each to their own.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 08:59:17 PM
No you don't. You have abused Amaral and Brenda and called sceptics mentally ill for not agreeing with you!   Selective abuse is what you want dealt with.

I havent abused anyone ..report me to the police if you think i have..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 22, 2018, 09:00:22 PM
Davel doesn't seem to understand that being abusive online isn't actually a crime.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 09:01:04 PM
so the dossier compilers have every right to ignore the standard due process that faith has proposed ...if I could be so bold ...that is the idiots view...if you start assaulting journalists it si you who will end up in the dock...and i have been doorstepped

Davel have you done everything or is this a tale?  Why on earth would any one want to doorstep you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 09:02:01 PM
Davel doesn't seem to understand that being abusive online isn't actually a crime.
Have you got a cite for that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2018, 09:03:06 PM
i cant imagine you dropping the nut

Take your pick from:
1) I am not surprised you never did have much of an imagination.
2) I am surprised you always displayed such a fertile imagination.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:03:25 PM
Davel have you done everything or is this a tale?  Why on earth would any one want to doorstep you?

Ive had a film  crew outside my place of work...concerning something  one of my employees did....it even reached the sun who asked me for a quote
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:04:16 PM
Take your pick from:
1) I am not surprised you never did have much of an imagination.
2) I am surprised you always displayed such a fertile imagination.

I cant imagine you dropping the nut
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 22, 2018, 09:04:38 PM
Have you got a cite for that?

Yes. Davel 's post above.

"I havent abused anyone ..report me to the police if you think i have.."

   Only someone that thought online abuse was a criminal act would suggest reporting it to the police.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 09:06:06 PM
I havent abused anyone ..report me to the police if you think i have..


I don't think... it is all in the threads although I imagine most of them have been deleted. I don't care enough about you or your posts to be bothered about reporting. I will leave that up to the McCann supporters.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:07:46 PM
Yes. Davel 's post above.

"I havent abused anyone ..report me to the police if you think i have.."

   Only someone that thought online abuse was a criminal act would suggest reporting it to the police.

online abuse can be a criminal act
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:09:02 PM

I don't think... it is all in the threads although I imagine most of them have been deleted. I don't care enough about you or your posts to be bothered about reporting. I will leave that up to the McCann supporters.

you cannot abuse an anonymous person...do you not undertsatnd...when the abuse is against a real person its completely different
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 09:21:46 PM
you cannot abuse an anonymous person...do you not undertsatnd...when the abuse is against a real person its completely different


ok let us look at what you typed and try not to fall over our laptops with laughter... you are saying an anonymous person  isn't a real person?  *%87

ooooooookaaaaayyyyyyyy

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 22, 2018, 09:23:00 PM
online abuse can be a criminal act

  The original post I was referring to accused you of abusing Amaral and calling sceptical people mentally ill. Which is in effect name calling. You said 'report it to the police if I have abused anyone'

  It seems like you are saying name calling is OK and 'abuse' is not. Abuse is not defined in the Malicious Communication Act 1988.  The general term 'Abuse' is not specifically a crime in UK law.

In the Malicious Communication Act 1988 and the Communications Act 2003.

 "a message which is indecent or grossly offensive;'

Any person who sends to another person—
(a)a [F1letter, electronic communication or article of any description] which conveys—
(i)a message which is indecent or grossly offensive;
(ii)a threat; or
(iii)information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender; or
(b)any [F2article or electronic communication] which is, in whole or part, of an indecent or grossly offensive nature",

If Brenda didn't send anything 'indecent or grossly offensive', ( as the police concluded) then she wasn't engaging in 'online abuse'.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:24:28 PM

ok let us look at what you typed and try not to fall over our laptops with laughter... you are saying an anonymous person  isn't a real person?  *%87

ooooooookaaaaayyyyyyyy

do you not understand that....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 09:29:14 PM
do you not understand that....

No your grasp of explaining yourself is a deliberate ploy  to pretend you do not have a grasp of English-to prevent you from explaining yourself.  If this isn't the case and your English is not your first language then accept my apologies.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 09:32:06 PM
how can  there be online abuse against unknown people...they do not exist... I myself have been subject to vile abuse online...not related to this case...  my children asked me why poeple were being so mean to us..so i have a better understanding than most...I was not part of the dossier compilers but i fully support them

Now why would someone want to be horrible to you Davel?

So you don't mind people being abusive to people that don't exist Davel?   

How on earth can that make sense.   

Your original post.

I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims


On your support of Sky's actions. Shame on you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:38:05 PM
Now why would someone want to be horrible to you Davel?

So you don't mind people being abusive to people that don't exist Davel?   

How on earth can that make sense.   

Your original post.

I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims


On your support of Sky's actions. Shame on you.

shame on you that you support onine abuse that has resulted in several suicides...on line abuse needs to be stopped ..  do you suport online abuse ...I dont..  because online abuse has resulted in the death by suicide of several young people I think it needs to be addressed...my name is freely available and I am not posting anonymously...you are.. why
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 22, 2018, 09:46:20 PM
shame on you that you support onine abuse that has resulted in several suicides...on line abuse needs to be stopped ..  do you suport online abuse ...I dont..  because online abuse has resulted in the death by suicide of several young people I think it needs to be addressed...my name is freely available and I am not posting anonymously...you are.. why

What was Alfie saying about strawmen.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 09:48:03 PM
Now why would someone want to be horrible to you Davel?

So you don't mind people being abusive to people that don't exist Davel?   

How on earth can that make sense.   

Your original post.

I think online abuse against known poeple is vile...i think it needs to be stopped ...the abusers are causing the problems not the victims...Brenda was an abuser...I dont condemn skys action in the slightest... I would like to see them confront more vicims of online abuse and support the victims


On your support of Sky's actions. Shame on you.

Several posters on the McCann case (and the wider internet) have/had multiple online persona. How do you identify the real person behind all the masks when working out who is abusing or being abused? Even with legal intervention, often old habits die hard.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 09:49:33 PM
shame on you that you support onine abuse that has resulted in several suicides...on line abuse needs to be stopped ..  do you suport online abuse ...I dont..  because online abuse has resulted in the death by suicide of several young people I think it needs to be addressed...my name is freely available and I am not posting anonymously...you are.. why

Two things where have I said I support online abuse and just where is your name freely available, perhaps in your local electoral roll?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
shame on you that you support onine abuse that has resulted in several suicides...on line abuse needs to be stopped ..  do you suport online abuse ...I dont..  because online abuse has resulted in the death by suicide of several young people I think it needs to be addressed...my name is freely available and I am not posting anonymously...you are.. why

cite for supporting online abuse. ta.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:51:09 PM
cite for supporting online abuse. ta.

do you condemn brenda or not
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 09:53:07 PM
Two things where have I said I support online abuse and just where is your name freely available, perhaps in your local electoral roll?

again...do you support the abuse by brenda... im quite happy to give you my real identity by pm...are you
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 10:19:22 PM
do you condemn brenda or not

goading....

 condemn her for what exactly? I never knew her- I don't do social media.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 22, 2018, 10:20:54 PM
goading....

 condemn her for what exactly? I never knew her- I don't do social media.

it  seems if a supporter   doesnt  agree  with   what you   say  IE honesty   you are  goading  doesnt it??
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:22:11 PM
do you condemn brenda or not
Does it matter? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 10:23:35 PM
again...do you support the abuse by brenda... im quite happy to give you my real identity by pm...are you

I don't believe Brenda posted abuse about the McCanns she posted her opinions in a rather unpleasant way, and I don't believe you would give me your real identity so no thank you.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:24:40 PM
Does it matter?

not to me it doesnt...brenda was the abuser...the mccanns were th victims IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:25:50 PM
I don't believe Brenda posted abuse about the McCanns she posted her opinions in a rather unpleasant way, and I don't believe you would give me your real identity so no thank you.

she did post abuse  imo have you read her tweets
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:26:42 PM
not to me it doesnt...brenda was the abuser..the mccanns were th victims IMO
So don't ask that question again. "Do you condemn Brenda?" is no longer a valid question.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 10:28:21 PM
Posters please note that any attempt to out members is viewed as a serious rule breach. Any further violations of this rule will result in posting privileges being moderated.  No further warning will be given.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 10:30:12 PM
she did post abuse  imo have you read her twwete

Yes I have read her tweets elsewhere and although some were deeply unpleasant they were not as bad as others I have seen elsewhere on this subject and others.  I have seen many much more unpleasant and some indeed threatening messages and posts from other sceptics and also supporters too. I am not naming nicknames or giving details of the posts as I probably would be able to find them again and some of them made me feel ill.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 22, 2018, 10:30:27 PM
i  think the  thing is no matter how  someone  feels about this case  the dossier/s   butted in when they had no  need  too and brenda  finally  snapped   and ever since supporters have been defensive and hostile about her/their  actions  the mcanns should have condemmed the supporters actions but they  condoned it but  that doesnt  suprise me considering kate wanted amaral to feel fear and pain
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:30:35 PM
So don't ask that question again. "Do you condemn Brenda?" is no longer a valid question.

I dont need to ask any question..i have made my position clear
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:31:59 PM
i  think the  thing is no matter how  someone  feels about this case  the dossier/s   butted in when they had no  need  too and brenda  finally  snapped   and ever since supporters have been defensive and hostile about her/their  actions  the mcanns should have condemmed the supporters actions but they  condoned it but  that doesnt  suprise me considering kate wanted amaral to feel fear and pain

online abuse is a serious issue...it was absolutely right to highlight it..imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 10:36:46 PM
not to me it doesnt...brenda was the abuser..the mccanns were the victims

Can people who don't subscribe to social media be a victim of online abuse?

The reality about twitter is that if you are not a subscriber, the only way you would know if someone was posting abusive messages about you is if you were to go looking for them or someone who is a member went looking for them and thereafter told you about it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:40:13 PM
Can people who don't subscribe to social media be a victim of online abuse?
absolutely...just because some one does not see abuse or libel directed at them it is still abuse or libel
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 10:41:32 PM
Can people who don't subscribe to social media be a victim of online abuse?
I think so.  It is the potential effect it has on a person's reputation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 10:43:22 PM
absolutely...just because some one does not see abuse or libel directed at them it is still abuse or libel

If you don't know about abuse you cannot be described as a victim.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 22, 2018, 10:44:32 PM
If you don't know about abuse you cannot be described as a victim.

unless some supporters know them/are part of their circle of their family and friends and run  to them about every  little  thing
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:45:57 PM
If you don't know about abuse you cannot be described as a victim.

That is absolute rubbish John.....abuse is abuse
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 10:49:24 PM
Can people who don't subscribe to social media be a victim of online abuse?

The reality about twitter is that if you are not a subscriber, the only way you would know if someone was posting abusive messages about you is if you were to go looking for them or someone who is a member went looking for them and thereafter told you about it.

Did Lord McAlpine frequent social media?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 10:52:56 PM
If you don't know about abuse you cannot be described as a victim.
That’s untrue IMO.  You don’t always have to be aware of a harmful action in order to be considered a victim.  For example you could be a victim of computer hacking without knowing about it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 10:55:37 PM
its quite obvious Leyland was the perpertartor and the mccanns were the victims....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 10:56:41 PM
Theoretically ANY mod could, why single out supporter mods?

Have sceptics ever compiled a dossier ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 10:57:55 PM
Have sceptics ever compiled a dossier ?
Quite possibly, how would I know? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 10:58:37 PM
Have sceptics ever compiled a dossier ?

I think some tried but gave up due to lack of relevant data.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 10:59:56 PM
I think some tried but gave up due to lack of relevant data.
Yes I seem to recall threats of that nature to submit a dossier of alleged McCann supporter abuse, I wonder whatever happened to that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 11:00:22 PM
That is absolute rubbish John.....abuse is abuse

If you don't receive abuse directly then you cannot be said to be a victim of it.  If someone says something nasty about you behind your back at work you will be totally unaware of the comment so cannot be a victim. If they said the same comment within your hearing then you could be said to be a victim.  Everything in this world is relative.

I think you confuse 'target of abuse' with 'victim of abuse'

People in the public eye like President Trump or PM Theresa May are targets of abuse every day but they aren't victims.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 11:03:08 PM
If you don't receive abuse directly then you cannot be said to be a victim of it.  If someone says something nasty about you behind your back at work you will be totally unaware of the comment so cannot be a victim. If they said the same comment within your hearing then you could be said to be a victim.  Everything in this world is relative.

I think you confuse 'target of abuse' with 'victim of abuse'

People in the public eye like President Trump or PM Theresa May are targets of abuse every day but they aren't victims.
Do you think the McCanns (or President Trump or Theresa May) are totally unaware of the abuse that gets heaped on them daily on social media?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:04:17 PM
If you don't receive abuse directly then you cannot be said to be a victim of it.  If someone says something nasty about you behind your back at work you will be totally unaware of the comment so cannot be a victim. If they said the same comment within your hearing then you could be said to be a victim.  Everything in this world is relative.

I think you confuse 'target of abuse' with 'victim of abuse'

People in the public eye like President Trump or PM Theresa May are targets of abuse every day but they aren't victims.

I dont confuse anything.. leyland posted up to 50 posts a day...have you seen them...many abusive posts towards the mccanns ...an absolute disgrace..she and others needed to be stopped
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 22, 2018, 11:06:34 PM
I think some tried but gave up due to lack of relevant data.

Or maybe they just lacked the obsessive temperament needed for such an endeavour.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 11:06:59 PM
If you don't receive abuse directly then you cannot be said to be a victim of it.  If someone says something nasty about you behind your back at work you will be totally unaware of the comment so cannot be a victim. If they said the same comment within your hearing then you could be said to be a victim.  Everything in this world is relative.

I think you confuse 'target of abuse' with 'victim of abuse'

People in the public eye like President Trump or PM Theresa May are targets of abuse every day but they aren't victims.

Abuse on social media comes in the written form. If people weren't victims, the likes of Lord McAlpine wouldn't be able to sue.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 22, 2018, 11:08:09 PM
Or maybe they just lacked the obsessive temperament needed for such an endeavour.

we  havent made this case  our whole life like supporters they    do   would   do anything for the mcanns 8((()*/  they  dont hide their attachment to the mcanns do they??
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 11:09:31 PM
Or maybe they just lacked the obsessive temperament needed for such an endeavour.
Or maybe they were just too exhausted after a hard day’s tweeting bile to muster the energy to trawl the internet looking for a few needles in a giant haystack.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 11:09:48 PM
I dont confuse anything.. leyland posted up to 50 posts a day...have you seen them...many abusive posts towards the mccanns ...an absolute disgrace..she and others needed to be stopped

Well Brenda Leyland was stopped wasn't she Davel.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 11:10:00 PM
Or maybe they just lacked the obsessive temperament needed for such an endeavour.

How hard could it have been, given how few of us there are & compared to many thousands of them obsessively posting & tweeting?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 22, 2018, 11:11:17 PM
Well Brenda Leyland was stopped wasn't she Davel.

forever  too  sunny  supporters dont  realise  brenda  went  all around the world they  played her  on sky news australia here many times  she was  exposed worldwide for having  a  opinion  very sad  imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 11:13:24 PM
Do you think the McCanns (or President Trump or Theresa May) are totally unaware of the abuse that gets heaped on them daily on social media?

Everyone in the public arena receives abuse of one sort or another, it goes with the territory.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2018, 11:15:46 PM
Everyone in the public arena receives abuse of one sort or another, it goes with the territory.
I don’t dispute it, in fact I said as much only the other day.  They are all victims of vile online abuse as are most people in the public eye.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 11:19:59 PM
I dont confuse anything.. leyland posted up to 50 posts a day...have you seen them...many abusive posts towards the mccanns ...an absolute disgrace..she and others needed to be stopped

Stopped by who exactly?  Everyone has the right to opinions and the right to air those opinions. The last time I looked, the only people who have any right to do anything about it are the police. Sky News, Jonathan Levy or Martin Brunt had no right to involves themselves in what BL was doing just for the sake of a cheap scoop.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:22:38 PM
Stopped by who exactly?  Everyone has the right to an opinion and the right to air those opinions. The last time I looked, the only people who have any right to do anything about it are the police.

stopped by the law... and if people decide taht the law is not sufficient they have the right to go to press or to a civil court
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 11:27:37 PM
stopped by the law... and if people decide taht the law is not sufficient they have the right to go to press or to a civil court

And creating a dossier with names and details of people and passing this information to the media fits into the above where?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 22, 2018, 11:31:43 PM
stopped by the law... and if people decide taht the law is not sufficient they have the right to go to press or to a civil court

I understand the police looked at the dossier but found that no laws had been broken.  That should have been an end to it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:32:26 PM
And creating a dossier with names and details of people and passing this information to the media fits into the above where?

the police are far to busyy to police crme...so when they dont act...give it to the medai...totally justified imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 11:34:28 PM
And creating a dossier with names and details of people and passing this information to the media fits into the above where?

When someone suspects they are being stalked, they are told to log all suspicious events before the police can decide if any action needs to be taken against the alleged stalker. Very often the police do not act until it's too late & the victim has been attacked or killed.
Think of the dossier as a perfectly legitimate log of abusive & threatening online behaviour carried out in a warped sense of "justice for Madeleine".
IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:37:59 PM
I understand the police looked at the dossier but found that no laws had been broken.  That should have been an end to it.

no it shouldnt....wasnt OJ simpson found not guilty...should her family have left it there. ... total rubbish John
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:38:53 PM
I understand the police looked at the dossier but found that no laws had been broken.  That should have been an end to it.

I really cant undersatnd your blind faith in the police...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 22, 2018, 11:39:37 PM
no it shouldnt....wasnt OJ simpson found not guilty...should her family have left it there. ... total rubbish John

Then there was the Daily Mail & Stephen Lawrence case.......
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2018, 11:40:29 PM
Then there was the Daily Mail & Stephen Lawrence case.......

yes its atotally laughable suggestion that the police are always right
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 22, 2018, 11:45:46 PM
don't talk like that Davel.  We are only human.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2018, 04:07:47 AM
Brietta just reminding you I am still awaiting my cite.

You asked …   “Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family" please Brietta as I have seen she had a facebook page and may have been a member of forums on many other topics for all we know”

Unfortunately I am spoilt for choice as far as your cite goes.

But think on this, and wonder how you would cope were you to discover that an individual who had an unhealthy obsession with your family had allegedly gone out of her way to wander the streets of your town where they could be walking in ignorance of her presence or even her existence.

Kate McCann and her children could well have been going about their daily lives in their home village unaware that an anonymous individual who professed hatred for the family could be in closer proximity than the fifteen miles between her village and theirs.

I find that a chilling thought.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time.
She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/




The cite(s) you requested ...

'Snip'
However if the law cannot always bring these online offenders to justice then the task inevitably falls to journalists like Brunt. Some have criticised his decision to target Leyland because she did not actually threaten to kill the McCanns, unlike other trolls. But she did send thousands of hate tweets. Some days she would send more than 50 messages attacking the McCanns.

Had she hurled this abuse at the couple in the street, she would have been hauled off in handcuffs. Instead she continued to publish with impunity, safe from scrutiny at home in Burton Overy, just 15 miles from where the McCanns live in Leicestershire. Yes, these were the acts of an obsessed loner but "being an oddball" is not a defence to this sort of criminal behaviour.
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/camilla-tominey/521746/Camilla-Tominey-McCanns-trolls-wake-up-selfies-the-real-Prince-Phillip


"Snip"
When Martin Brunt, the Sky crime correspondent, interviewed Brenda Leyland about her nearly 5,000 tweets which formed part of a vitriolic campaign against the parents of missing toddler Madeleine McCann, she declared that she was doing nothing illegal.
https://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2014/10/07/why-skys-martin-brunt-was-right-investigate-story-mccann-twitter-troll-brenda


"Snip"
First, the entire Twitter history of Ms Leyland’s @SweepyFace Twitter account can currently be viewed and downloaded via GrepTweet  (or here as a .txt file).  There are over 4,000 tweets in the account and all of them appear to be about the McCanns… or rather, about #McCann, the ongoing “he said, she said” debate between pro- and anti- tweeters. 
http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2014/10/07/brenda-leyland-and-twitter-storms/


"Snip"
Yet, hiding behind the alias @sweepyface, she insinuated that the McCanns were implicated in their three-year-old daughter's disappearance during a family holiday in Portugal in 2007 - a theme that had obsessed her for four years. According to the website BuzzFeed, she was sometimes posting more than 50 tweets a day, even on Christmas Eve, from 7am until midnight.
She claimed the McCanns were trying to silence their critics. The accusations were not original but her turn of phrase was blithe and deadly. "You will be hated for the rest of your miserable, evil, conniving lives, have a nice day!"
and she developed such an obsession with the McCanns that almost all the 4625 tweets she sent from December 2010 were about the case, many taking issue with their supporters.
It was an industrious hidden life.
Emboldened by disguise, she shared the assumption of all internet trolls that she could say anything she pleased without being held accountable.
As Professor Mary Beard told the London Daily Telegraph when she was campaigning last year against misogynist trolling: "Anonymity has disguised the nature of authorship.
It has allowed these evanescent creatures on the web to blast off without thinking of the victims.
Somehow no-one in this conversation is real. They are just names."

Mrs Leyland tweeted triumphantly at the height of her persecution: "You can move to France, anywhere, but social media is everywhere! Our memories are long, Maddie deserves it."

Her message seemed mild compared with some of the foul-mouthed stuff that has continued to rain down on the McCanns - but there was menace in it, too. Questioned by Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, she said she was "entitled" to tweet as she did - though her justification, without the protective cloak of anonymity, sounded far from confident.
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 07:10:22 AM
You asked …   “Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family" please Brietta as I have seen she had a facebook page and may have been a member of forums on many other topics for all we know”

Unfortunately I am spoilt for choice as far as your cite goes.

But think on this, and wonder how you would cope were you to discover that an individual who had an unhealthy obsession with your family had allegedly gone out of her way to wander the streets of your town where they could be walking in ignorance of her presence or even her existence.

Kate McCann and her children could well have been going about their daily lives in their home village unaware that an anonymous individual who professed hatred for the family could be in closer proximity than the fifteen miles between her village and theirs.

I find that a chilling thought.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time.
She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/




The cite(s) you requested ...

'Snip'
However if the law cannot always bring these online offenders to justice then the task inevitably falls to journalists like Brunt. Some have criticised his decision to target Leyland because she did not actually threaten to kill the McCanns, unlike other trolls. But she did send thousands of hate tweets. Some days she would send more than 50 messages attacking the McCanns.

Had she hurled this abuse at the couple in the street, she would have been hauled off in handcuffs. Instead she continued to publish with impunity, safe from scrutiny at home in Burton Overy, just 15 miles from where the McCanns live in Leicestershire. Yes, these were the acts of an obsessed loner but "being an oddball" is not a defence to this sort of criminal behaviour.
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/camilla-tominey/521746/Camilla-Tominey-McCanns-trolls-wake-up-selfies-the-real-Prince-Phillip


"Snip"
When Martin Brunt, the Sky crime correspondent, interviewed Brenda Leyland about her nearly 5,000 tweets which formed part of a vitriolic campaign against the parents of missing toddler Madeleine McCann, she declared that she was doing nothing illegal.
https://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2014/10/07/why-skys-martin-brunt-was-right-investigate-story-mccann-twitter-troll-brenda


"Snip"
First, the entire Twitter history of Ms Leyland’s @SweepyFace Twitter account can currently be viewed and downloaded via GrepTweet  (or here as a .txt file).  There are over 4,000 tweets in the account and all of them appear to be about the McCanns… or rather, about #McCann, the ongoing “he said, she said” debate between pro- and anti- tweeters. 
http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2014/10/07/brenda-leyland-and-twitter-storms/


"Snip"
Yet, hiding behind the alias @sweepyface, she insinuated that the McCanns were implicated in their three-year-old daughter's disappearance during a family holiday in Portugal in 2007 - a theme that had obsessed her for four years. According to the website BuzzFeed, she was sometimes posting more than 50 tweets a day, even on Christmas Eve, from 7am until midnight.
She claimed the McCanns were trying to silence their critics. The accusations were not original but her turn of phrase was blithe and deadly. "You will be hated for the rest of your miserable, evil, conniving lives, have a nice day!"
and she developed such an obsession with the McCanns that almost all the 4625 tweets she sent from December 2010 were about the case, many taking issue with their supporters.
It was an industrious hidden life.
Emboldened by disguise, she shared the assumption of all internet trolls that she could say anything she pleased without being held accountable.
As Professor Mary Beard told the London Daily Telegraph when she was campaigning last year against misogynist trolling: "Anonymity has disguised the nature of authorship.
It has allowed these evanescent creatures on the web to blast off without thinking of the victims.
Somehow no-one in this conversation is real. They are just names."

Mrs Leyland tweeted triumphantly at the height of her persecution: "You can move to France, anywhere, but social media is everywhere! Our memories are long, Maddie deserves it."

Her message seemed mild compared with some of the foul-mouthed stuff that has continued to rain down on the McCanns - but there was menace in it, too. Questioned by Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, she said she was "entitled" to tweet as she did - though her justification, without the protective cloak of anonymity, sounded far from confident.
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/

Thank you Brietta, your post shows she was very interested in the case and made up to 50 posts per day (some days) but what your post does not show is that "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family". It does not show the time on facebook, shopping on the internet, reading other news, watching videos, listening to music.  So no your cite will not do IMO, sorry.  Almost solely implies at least 90% of her time on the internet was spent looking at things McCann related. Your cites do not do that. 

So I ask again  “Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 07:37:54 AM
Can people who don't subscribe to social media be a victim of online abuse?

The reality about twitter is that if you are not a subscriber, the only way you would know if someone was posting abusive messages about you is if you were to go looking for them or someone who is a member went looking for them and thereafter told you about it.

It’s a bit like someone who repeats libel being guilty of libel.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 23, 2018, 08:15:09 AM
It’s a bit like someone who repeats libel being guilty of libel.
Doesn’t that rather depend on the context?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 23, 2018, 08:57:10 AM
Can anyone provide a cite that Brenda was being 'abusive' ?

 and what the legal definition of 'online abuse' is?   I would say you can't because it isn't defined in law.

  We have laws already covering harassment and sending 'grossly offensive' materials online. Police did not find Brenda was doing these things, so the claim that she was engaging in abuse which warrants targeting by the media is entirely subjective and it's a moot point even using Brenda being 'abusive' as she broke no law.

 Some posters think it was justified doorstepping a private individual just because one group of people don't like some of the opinions expressed by another?   Maybe China, Russia or Saudi Arabia is the kind of place these people would prefer to live, where discussion on certain subjects is restricted and punished?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 08:59:59 AM
Can anyone provide a cite that Brenda was being 'abusive' ?

 and what the legal definition of 'online abuse' is?   I would say you can't because it isn't defined in law.

  We have laws already covering harassment and sending 'grossly offensive' materials online. Police did not find Brenda was doing these things, so the claim that she was engaging in abuse which warrants targeting by the media is entirely subjective and it's a moot point even using Brenda being 'abusive' as she broke no law.

 Some posters think it was justified doorstepping a private individual just because one group of people don't like some of the opinions expressed by another?   Maybe China, Russia or Saudi Arabia is the kind of place these people would prefer to live, where discussion on certain subjects is restricted and punished?

We have a free press in this country that it seems you and others, want to suppress.... When it suits you
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 23, 2018, 09:01:01 AM
Can anyone provide a cite that Brenda was being 'abusive' ?

 and what the legal definition of 'online abuse' is?   I would say you can't because it isn't defined in law.

  We have laws already covering harassment and sending 'grossly offensive' materials online. Police did not find Brenda was doing these things, so the claim that she was engaging in abuse which warrants targeting by the media is entirely subjective and it's a moot point even using Brenda being 'abusive' as she broke no law.

 Some posters think it was justified doorstepping a private individual just because one group of people don't like some of the opinions expressed by another?   Maybe China, Russia or Saudi Arabia is the kind of place these people would prefer to live, where discussion on certain subjects is restricted and punished?

well said
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 09:03:00 AM
We have a free press in this country that it seems you and others, want to suppress.... When it suits you

Do you want freedom of speech?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 09:08:22 AM
Do you want freedom of speech?

That is rather a silly question.... Total and complete... The right to abuse others.. The right to mock other religions.... Gays...

No I don't....Freedom of speech has to have limitations
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 09:14:07 AM
You asked …   “Do you have a cite for "she did use the internet almost solely to excoriate the McCann family" please Brietta as I have seen she had a facebook page and may have been a member of forums on many other topics for all we know”

Unfortunately I am spoilt for choice as far as your cite goes.

But think on this, and wonder how you would cope were you to discover that an individual who had an unhealthy obsession with your family had allegedly gone out of her way to wander the streets of your town where they could be walking in ignorance of her presence or even her existence.

Kate McCann and her children could well have been going about their daily lives in their home village unaware that an anonymous individual who professed hatred for the family could be in closer proximity than the fifteen miles between her village and theirs.

I find that a chilling thought.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time.
She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/




The cite(s) you requested ...

'Snip'
However if the law cannot always bring these online offenders to justice then the task inevitably falls to journalists like Brunt. Some have criticised his decision to target Leyland because she did not actually threaten to kill the McCanns, unlike other trolls. But she did send thousands of hate tweets. Some days she would send more than 50 messages attacking the McCanns.

Had she hurled this abuse at the couple in the street, she would have been hauled off in handcuffs. Instead she continued to publish with impunity, safe from scrutiny at home in Burton Overy, just 15 miles from where the McCanns live in Leicestershire. Yes, these were the acts of an obsessed loner but "being an oddball" is not a defence to this sort of criminal behaviour.
https://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/camilla-tominey/521746/Camilla-Tominey-McCanns-trolls-wake-up-selfies-the-real-Prince-Phillip


"Snip"
When Martin Brunt, the Sky crime correspondent, interviewed Brenda Leyland about her nearly 5,000 tweets which formed part of a vitriolic campaign against the parents of missing toddler Madeleine McCann, she declared that she was doing nothing illegal.
https://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2014/10/07/why-skys-martin-brunt-was-right-investigate-story-mccann-twitter-troll-brenda


"Snip"
First, the entire Twitter history of Ms Leyland’s @SweepyFace Twitter account can currently be viewed and downloaded via GrepTweet  (or here as a .txt file).  There are over 4,000 tweets in the account and all of them appear to be about the McCanns… or rather, about #McCann, the ongoing “he said, she said” debate between pro- and anti- tweeters. 
http://www.robertsharp.co.uk/2014/10/07/brenda-leyland-and-twitter-storms/


"Snip"
Yet, hiding behind the alias @sweepyface, she insinuated that the McCanns were implicated in their three-year-old daughter's disappearance during a family holiday in Portugal in 2007 - a theme that had obsessed her for four years. According to the website BuzzFeed, she was sometimes posting more than 50 tweets a day, even on Christmas Eve, from 7am until midnight.
She claimed the McCanns were trying to silence their critics. The accusations were not original but her turn of phrase was blithe and deadly. "You will be hated for the rest of your miserable, evil, conniving lives, have a nice day!"
and she developed such an obsession with the McCanns that almost all the 4625 tweets she sent from December 2010 were about the case, many taking issue with their supporters.
It was an industrious hidden life.
Emboldened by disguise, she shared the assumption of all internet trolls that she could say anything she pleased without being held accountable.
As Professor Mary Beard told the London Daily Telegraph when she was campaigning last year against misogynist trolling: "Anonymity has disguised the nature of authorship.
It has allowed these evanescent creatures on the web to blast off without thinking of the victims.
Somehow no-one in this conversation is real. They are just names."

Mrs Leyland tweeted triumphantly at the height of her persecution: "You can move to France, anywhere, but social media is everywhere! Our memories are long, Maddie deserves it."

Her message seemed mild compared with some of the foul-mouthed stuff that has continued to rain down on the McCanns - but there was menace in it, too. Questioned by Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, she said she was "entitled" to tweet as she did - though her justification, without the protective cloak of anonymity, sounded far from confident.
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/


How anyone can deny that her tweets about the family of a missing child were  obsessive and in some cases quite menacing is a puzzle to me.
I still wonder how anyone can defend this behaviour under the cloak of entitlement to free speech.
Brenda certainly had a strong belief in her own entitlement to express her own dark thoughts.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 09:17:24 AM
That is rather a silly question.... Total and complete... The right to abuse others.. The right to mock other religions.... Gays...

No I don't....Freedom of speech has to have limitations

I said much the same a few days ago.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 09:18:58 AM
That is rather a silly question.... Total and complete... The right to abuse others.. The right to mock other religions.... Gays...

No I don't....Freedom of speech has to have limitations

As should the press.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 09:20:16 AM
As should the press.

As they do.... Was there any complaint Re the press action against Brenda...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 09:26:18 AM
As they do.... Was there any complaint Re the press action against Brenda...

Yes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 09:31:50 AM
Yes.

And what was the result of the complaint
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 09:37:05 AM
Can anyone provide a cite that Brenda was being 'abusive' ?

 and what the legal definition of 'online abuse' is?   I would say you can't because it isn't defined in law.

  We have laws already covering harassment and sending 'grossly offensive' materials online. Police did not find Brenda was doing these things, so the claim that she was engaging in abuse which warrants targeting by the media is entirely subjective and it's a moot point even using Brenda being 'abusive' as she broke no law.

 Some posters think it was justified doorstepping a private individual just because one group of people don't like some of the opinions expressed by another?   Maybe China, Russia or Saudi Arabia is the kind of place these people would prefer to live, where discussion on certain subjects is restricted and punished?


I spent many years teaching children from age five to eleven.
Children can often blurt out unkind remarks to each other when they are annoyed or feel they have a grievance .
Much time is spent by the teacher in helping the children to become more mature in their behaviour and to find a better way of handling their sense of grievance.
Hopefully by the time they are adults these children will have developed and matured enough to be able to express their grievances without resorting to unkind and abusive language.

Brenda, in my opinion, felt very aggrieved by the parents of a missing child and handled her grievance in a very immature way.
She certainly had the right to express her doubts about the parents of a missing child but she chose to express those doubts in abusive and menacing language in a public arena.
Like the children, her words may not have been criminal but in my opinion they were wrong.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 09:39:29 AM

I spent many years teaching children from age five to eleven.
Children can often blurt out unkind remarks to each other when they are annoyed or feel they have a grievance .
Much time is spent by the teacher in helping the children to become more mature in their behaviour and to find a better way of handling their sense of grievance.
Hopefully by the time they are adults these children will have developed and matured enough to be able to express their grievances without resorting to unkind and abusive language.

Brenda, in my opinion, felt very aggrieved by the parents of a missing child and handled her grievance in a very immature way.
She certainly had the right to express her doubts about the parents of a missing child but she chose to express those doubts in abusive and menacing language in a public arena.
Like the children, her words may not have been criminal but in my opinion they were wrong.

So is “He [Gonçalo Amaral] deserves to be miserable and feel fear” Abuse?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 09:41:45 AM
So is “He [Gonçalo Amaral] deserves to be miserable and feel fear” Abuse?

If it was repeated 50 times, a day for 2 years it would be ( this is a made up number not related to Brenda Leyland )
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 09:42:46 AM
So is “He [Gonçalo Amaral] deserves to be miserable and feel fear” Abuse?

How it be - it was uttered by the saintly Kate
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 09:54:58 AM
How it be - it was uttered by the saintly Kate

I wouldn't describe Kate as a Saint.
One has to be dead to be given that title.

Kate felt that Amaral had abandoned the search for her missing child. You may not agree.
He was accusing them of being complicit in their child's disappearance.

She felt fear and misery because of him.
Rightly or wrongly she expressed the wish that he too might feel the misery and recalled that feeling in her book

Why did Brenda feel so aggrieved?
Why did she feel the need to wish them fear and why spend so much of her time in expressing such dark thoughts about the family of a missing child?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 10:05:25 AM
All tidied.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2018, 10:06:42 AM
Not ridiculous at all, Davel is pursuing a poster over a minor disagreement over definitions yet makes a false claim that Brenda Leyland made 36,500 posts against the McCanns when the inquest heard that She made 400 about the McCanns

To me that indicates rank hypocrisy.

Haven't you noticed that I am being pursued by a poster whose request for a cite was complied with but continues in his/her demand for a cite because the cites I provided didn't for some obscure reason suit?

This "cite" business is becoming rather ridiculous in my opinion when it is misused in the way it is currently being abused on the forum:  it appears to me to be the concerted reflex action of choice to disrupt and goad.

In my opinion we have already had two examples of this already today.

In my opinion it is rather becoming a pattern.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 10:11:23 AM
Haven't you noticed that I am being pursued by a poster whose request for a cite was complied with but continues in his/her demand for a cite because the cites I provided didn't for some obscure reason suit?

This "cite" business is becoming rather ridiculous in my opinion when it is misused in the way it is currently being abused on the forum:  it appears to me to be the concerted reflex action of choice to disrupt and goad.

In my opinion we have already had two examples of this already today.

In my opinion it is rather becoming a pattern.

Now which side was it wanted cites in the first place?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 10:12:47 AM
I wouldn't describe Kate as a Saint.
One has to be dead to be given that title.

Kate felt that Amaral had abandoned the search for her missing child. You may not agree.
He was accusing them of being complicit in their child's disappearance.

She felt fear and misery because of him.
Rightly or wrongly she expressed the wish that he too might feel the misery and recalled that feeling in her book

Why did Brenda feel so aggrieved?
Why did she feel the need to wish them fear and why spend so much of her time in expressing such dark thoughts about the family of a missing child?

And yet she was willing to forgive the alleged abductor.
Strange priorities - to my mind.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 10:12:56 AM
I wouldn't describe Kate as a Saint.
One has to be dead to be given that title.

Kate felt that Amaral had abandoned the search for her missing child. You may not agree.
He was accusing them of being complicit in their child's disappearance.

She felt fear and misery because of him.
Rightly or wrongly she expressed the wish that he too might feel the misery and recalled that feeling in her book

Why did Brenda feel so aggrieved?
Why did she feel the need to wish them fear and why spend so much of her time in expressing such dark thoughts about the family of a missing child?



Obviously because she thought the mcns involved in maddie disappearance.

BL did at one time support the mcns - even adding a substantial amount to the fund.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 10:20:35 AM
Now which side was it wanted cites in the first place?

Could I suggest you stopped seeing posters as having sides... Or holding grudges... And simply judge each post on it's merits
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 10:21:49 AM
Could I suggest you stopped seeing posters as having sides... Or holding grudges... And simply judge each post on it's merits

I then get accused of bias.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 10:22:13 AM


Obviously because she thought the mcns involved in maddie disappearance.

BL did at one time support the mcns - even adding a substantial amount to the fund.

I find that very hard to believe
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 10:23:15 AM


Obviously because she thought the mcns involved in maddie disappearance.

BL did at one time support the mcns - even adding a substantial amount to the fund.


That does not explain her obsession and her use of menacing language.
What did she hope to achieve?

Can I ask how you know that she added "a substantial amount to the fund" ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 10:25:41 AM
And yet she was willing to forgive the alleged abductor.
Strange priorities - to my mind.


Can you give me the cite for "she was willing to forgive the abductor"?

I've read this before and believe she said it in a broadcast but would like to hear her exact words.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 10:27:12 AM

Can you give me the cite for "she was willing to forgive the abductor"?

I've read this before and believe she said it in a broadcast but would like to hear her exact words.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2310279/Madeleine-McCanns-mother-Kate-says-forgive-Maddies-abductor.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 10:38:34 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2310279/Madeleine-McCanns-mother-Kate-says-forgive-Maddies-abductor.html

From the newspaper report.
I COULD probably forgive the abductor, not would.

While her child is still missing, I imagine this would be the message she would wish to impart.

I would like to see the recording of the programme.
It was a religious programme and she was being asked about her Faith.
Was she asked directly about forgiveness?

E TA

I now notice you said "willing".
I suppose we could have an endless debate about the difference in  the meaning of  willing and could and would.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 10:41:22 AM
From the newspaper report.
I COULD probably forgive the abductor, not would.

While her child is still missing, I imagine this would be the message she would wish to impart.

I would like to see the recording of the programme.
It was a religious programme and she was being asked about her Faith.
Was she asked directly about forgiveness?

It's all about context... Taking a statement out of context can totally change it's meaning


The Pope arrives in new York... As he gets off the plane a journalist asks... Will you be going to any night clubs in New York... Pope replies... Are there any night clubs in new York..

Next days papers... First words from pope on arrival...

Are there, any night clubs in new York
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 10:44:58 AM
From the newspaper report.
I COULD probably forgive the abductor, not would.

While her child is still missing, I imagine this would be the message she would wish to impart.

I would like to see the recording of the programme.
It was a religious programme and she was being asked about her Faith.
Was she asked directly about forgiveness?

You are on the verge of becoming as tedious as old "Dangerous"

I made no pretence to quote her actual words, but rather paraphrased the sentiment of what she said.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 10:46:33 AM
It's all about context... Taking a statement out of context can totally change it's meaning

That's why I would like to have a link to the broadcast.
It was a religious programme and I think she was being asked about her Faith and forgiveness.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 10:49:11 AM
That's why I would like to have a link to the broadcast.
It was a religious programme and I think she was being asked about her Faith and forgiveness.

Yes... Context
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
You are on the verge of becoming as tedious as old "Dangerous"

I made no pretence to quote her actual words, but rather paraphrased the sentiment of what she said.


I have no idea of what you are wittering about.
Who is old "Dangerous."

So paraphrasing Kate's words is an acceptable cite.

This paraphrased quote has been used often.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 11:01:43 AM

I have no idea of what you are wittering about.
Who is old "Dangerous."

So paraphrasing Kate's words is an acceptable cite.

This paraphrased quote has been used often.

The cite was the Daily Mail, not my words

Old " Dangerous"? You really must keep - Brietta refereed to Davel as dangerous last night. I'm just spreading her humour
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 11:13:25 AM
The cite was the Daily Mail, not my words

Old " Dangerous"? You really must keep - Brietta refereed to Davel as dangerous last night. I'm just spreading her humour


I do my best to "keep up" but don't have the time or dedication that you seem to have.
So the Daily Mail  8)-)))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 11:20:32 AM

I do my best to "keep up" but don't have the time or dedication that you seem to have.
So the Daily Mail  8)-)))

Just one of many. Pick another if you don't like that one

https://www.google.com/search?q=kate+mccann+forgives+abductor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 11:24:27 AM
Just one of many. Pick another if you don't like that one

https://www.google.com/search?q=kate+mccann+forgives+abductor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b

Thank you .
Is there a link to the original broadcast.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2018, 11:48:39 AM
Thank you .
Is there a link to the original broadcast.


Why don't you go look for it yourself, since you are the one making the claim.

This wondefull  christian gesture of Kate to 'feel she could forgive the abductor' after describing in detail in her book her daughters  possible physical state at the hands of a  P.......phile..  Really is quite telling.

 Comparing to  THE F''KING TO ss   ERS and Amaral to feel the fear it displays an eratic mind. Seriously scarie.

I wonder if MBM can forgive the person/s responsible for her 'disappearance'. Great he mum can though. helps with the guilt and all that.

       
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 11:55:05 AM

Why don't you go look for it yourself, since you are the one making the claim.

This wondefull  christian gesture of Kate to 'feel she could forgive the abductor' after describing in detail in her book her daughters  possible physical state at the hands of a  P.......phile..  Really is quite telling.

 Comparing to  THE F''KING TO ss   ERS and Amaral to feel the fear it displays an eratic mind. Seriously scarie.

I wonder if MBM can forgive the person/s responsible for her 'disappearance'. Great he mum can though. helps with the guilt and all that.

       
IThank you for your polite and carefully worded and measured response.
At a later time today when I have the  time and the inclination, I will attempt to study and decipher your post.
I may or may not bother to reply. ^*&&
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 12:51:32 PM
Brenda Leyland was a woman who seemed to firmly stand behind exactly what she had to say online, using her internet persona '@sweepyface'. She wasn't putting out these 'hateful' tweets or messages because she wanted to annoy, but rather because she thought that a serious miscarriage of justice had taken place at the expense of a young child, and she wanted things to be put right. Whether she is correct in what she believed is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 01:05:04 PM
Brenda Leyland was a woman who seemed to firmly stand behind exactly what she had to say online, using her internet persona '@sweepyface'. She wasn't putting out these 'hateful' tweets or messages because she wanted to annoy, but rather because she thought that a serious miscarriage of justice had taken place at the expense of a young child, and she wanted things to be put right. Whether she is correct in what she believed is another matter entirely.

Just because someone stands firmly behind what they believe does not make that belief correct.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 01:10:17 PM
Just because someone stands firmly behind what they bee does not make that belief correct.

That's what I've been telling supporters for several years.  8)-)))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 01:13:13 PM
That's what I've been telling supporters for several years.  8)-)))

Likewise to your good self.

Although you don't seem to have any beliefs in this case, just lots of doubts
Brenda didn't seem just to have doubts, more total beliefs.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2018, 01:16:29 PM
The whole point of the debate is to challenge the content and not the member.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 01:17:39 PM
Likewise to your good self.

Although you don't seem to have any beliefs in this case, just lots of doubts
Brenda didn't seem just to have doubts, more total beliefs.


I think that is the description of a sceptic
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 01:18:14 PM
The whole point of the debate is to challenge the content and not the member. This is all you have done since you 'arrived'.


Nothing wrong  with highlighting abuse... I certainly support it... But I don't have any hatred towards Brenda... More sympathy  for her unhappiness with her life
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 01:20:16 PM
Haven't you noticed that I am being pursued by a poster whose request for a cite was complied with but continues in his/her demand for a cite because the cites I provided didn't for some obscure reason suit?

This "cite" business is becoming rather ridiculous in my opinion when it is misused in the way it is currently being abused on the forum:  it appears to me to be the concerted reflex action of choice to disrupt and goad.

In my opinion we have already had two examples of this already today.

In my opinion it is rather becoming a pattern.

I suppose it depends upon the person as to what is "ridiculous". You implied that Brenda pretty much spent all her time on the internet making posts about the McCanns but you haven't been able to provide a cite.

According to the rules here you could  alter your post and say it was your opinion or provide a cite but without either think you malign Brenda Leyland by implying what you have without any evidence.

You say I am pursuing you for a cite but how many posts last night did Davel make to G-unit for a cite. Considerably more than 3 IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2018, 01:35:41 PM
The 'cite' becomes an issue when it is made up or it is an opinion dressed as fact.

Brenda has nothing to apologise for imo. She broke no laws. I am of the opinion the pressure and global publicity was instrumental in her becoming 'cornered' as she may not have wanted her family subjected to that kind of exposure.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 01:39:41 PM

I think that is the description of a sceptic


Probably.
But if all someone has are doubts, should they act on those doubts in the way that Brenda and others did and still do?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 01:46:57 PM

Probably.
But if all someone has are doubts, should they act on those doubts in the way that Brenda and others did and still do?

That's for the individual to decide. I limit my action to posting on a relatively benign and ineffectual forum

Hardly world shattering
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 01:48:05 PM

The 'cite' becomes an issue when it is made up or it is an opinion dressed as fact. The supporters really do not have a reasoned argument regarding any thread worthy of having a adult debate.  They are preoccupied with attacking the member. Which is interesting as it shows their lack of integrity as to their claim they care about MBM. When ALL the heads turn to attacking witnesses  who do not show the McCanns as  perfect parents who had a wee whoopsie of a mistake.


Brenda has nothing to apologise for. She broke no law. I am of the opinion the pressure and global publicity was instrumental in her becoming 'cornered' as she may not have wanted her family subjected to that kind of exposure.


'Old Dangerous' post about not hating Brenda doesn't fit with the rest of his posts.

Could you show me one post that indicates hate towards Brenda from me... You do post some rubbish
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 01:53:34 PM
That's for the individual to decide. I limit my action to posting on a relatively benign and ineffectual forum

Hardly world shattering

You are not usually so reticent about giving your opinion on the actions of others.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 23, 2018, 01:56:09 PM
We have a free press in this country that it seems you and others, want to suppress.... When it suits you

When have I ever said I want to suppress the press?   I have talked about balance and fairness. Brenda was one ordinary person pitted against the whole of the UK's media with absolutely no warning. It was not balanced or fair in any conceivable way. I don't believe Sky followed their own guidelines or those of OFCOM but they got away with it anyway.

  You are the one talking about stopping 'abuse' but you won't even define it.  That's picking and choosing things that you personally dislike said online and thinking you have a right to suppress it even when people have done nothing unlawful. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 02:01:40 PM
You are not usually so reticent about giving your opinion on the actions of others.

Indeed and I do it through the medium of this forum. I don't say what others should do
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 02:05:06 PM
I see it looks like supporters are trying to put words into sceptics mouths again, on this thread this time.  IMO that is where some of Brenda Leyland's so called worst tweets came from where she partially quoted a McCann supporter I have read.

So my question to you supporters is, are you on a fishing expedition?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 02:08:26 PM
When have I ever said I want to suppress the press?   I have talked about balance and fairness. Brenda was one ordinary person pitted against the whole of the UK's media with absolutely no warning. It was not balanced or fair in any conceivable way. I don't believe Sky followed their own guidelines or those of OFCOM but they got away with it anyway.

  You are the one talking about stopping 'abuse' but you won't even define it.  That's picking and choosing things that you personally dislike said online and thinking you have a right to suppress it even when people have done nothing unlawful.

Just because something is not unlawful  does not mean it isn't wrong... Sometimes it's the law that needs changing... Have you seen brendas tweets... She, was part of a group directing hate, towards the McCann's..  Hatred, was a word she used... That's abusive imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2018, 02:09:59 PM
Could you show me one post that indicates hate towards Brenda from me... You do post some rubbish

You said she was abusive- and support the dossier compliers and Sky for doorstepping. that is not thw words of someone who sympythises with her is ?

Just a few posts from you. The Brenda thread back at the time of her death is far more revealing. but many of your posts are deleted.

Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
« Reply #508 on: August 22, 2018, 10:55:37 PM »
•   Quote
its quite obvious Leyland was the perpertartor and the mccanns were the victims....

no sympathy here


Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
« Reply #486 on: August 22, 2018, 09:51:09 PM »
•   Quote
Quote from: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
cite for supporting online abuse. ta.

do you condemn brenda or not

You seek condemnation of a dead  woman who was  tweeting? not sympathetic here

Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
« Reply #487 on: August 22, 2018, 09:53:07 PM »
•   Quote
Quote from: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 09:49:33 PM

again...do you support the abuse by brenda...'Edited'

You are accusing Brenda of abuse- YOUR interpretation of her tweets- not shwoing sympathy here

Reply #460 on: August 22, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »
I have sympathy with the victims of online abuse but none with the perpertrators...none whatsoever

sympathy?  NONE WHAT SO EVER.  oh dear..

I do not believe you feel sorry for Brenda at all!


Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 23, 2018, 02:14:12 PM

I spent many years teaching children from age five to eleven.
Children can often blurt out unkind remarks to each other when they are annoyed or feel they have a grievance .
Much time is spent by the teacher in helping the children to become more mature in their behaviour and to find a better way of handling their sense of grievance.
Hopefully by the time they are adults these children will have developed and matured enough to be able to express their grievances without resorting to unkind and abusive language.

Brenda, in my opinion, felt very aggrieved by the parents of a missing child and handled her grievance in a very immature way.
She certainly had the right to express her doubts about the parents of a missing child but she chose to express those doubts in abusive and menacing language in a public arena.
Like the children, her words may not have been criminal but in my opinion they were wrong.

This is completely subjective again. You thought the language used was 'abusive' and 'menacing', many others didn't. 

At least you admit it was not criminal. So how was doorstepping Brenda justified just because one group of people thought what she said overstepped their own moral standards? 

    You mention teaching 5 year olds. To me wanting to police what other adults say lawfully online does seem like a school teacher trying to decide what's best for everyone else. You find what Brenda said 'unkind', that's purely your own moral judgement. How many times have the press said 'unkind' things about people? So the public can't say unkind things but the press can?
 The press being encouraged to exact revenge on ordinary people for uttering things others find 'unkind' is an attack on free speech IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 02:14:22 PM
I see it looks like supporters are trying to put words into sceptics mouths again, on this thread this time.  IMO that is where some of Brenda Leyland's so called worst tweets came from where she partially quoted a McCann supporter I have read.

So my question to you supporters is, are you on a fishing expedition?


Can I ask what you mean by your question to supporters?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 02:14:48 PM
You said she was abusive- and support the dossier compliers and Sky for doorstepping. that is not thw words of someone who sympythises with her is ?

Just a few posts from you. The Brenda thread back at the time of her death is far more revealing. but many of your posts are deleted.

Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
« Reply #508 on: August 22, 2018, 10:55:37 PM »
•   Quote
its quite obvious Leyland was the perpertartor and the mccanns were the victims....

no sympathy here


Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
« Reply #486 on: August 22, 2018, 09:51:09 PM »
•   Quote
Quote from: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2018, 09:50:06 PM
cite for supporting online abuse. ta.

do you condemn brenda or not

You seek condemnation of a dead  woman who was  tweeting? not sympathetic here

Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
« Reply #487 on: August 22, 2018, 09:53:07 PM »
•   Quote
Quote from: Sunny on August 22, 2018, 09:49:33 PM

again...do you support the abuse by brenda...'Edited'

You are accusing Brenda of abuse- YOUR interpretation of her tweets- not shwoing sympathy here

Reply #460 on: August 22, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »
I have sympathy with the victims of online abuse but none with the perpertrators...none whatsoever

sympathy?  NONE WHAT SO EVER.  oh dear..

I do not believe you feel sorry for Brenda at all!
So I have not used the word hate...and not directed any hatred towards Brenda... As you have implied... Like others, you take my posts out if context but none talk of hate


My post said I have no sympathy for those who post on-line abuse... I don't... I do have sympathy for those who suffer mental illness... In that respect I have sympathy  for Brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 02:17:18 PM
So I have not used the word hate...and not directed any hatred towards Brenda... As you have implied... Like others, you take my posts out if context but none talk of hate

The irony of all of this is Brenda did tweet about her hatred for the parents of a missing child.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 23, 2018, 02:21:43 PM
Just because something is not unlawful  does not mean it isn't wrong... Sometimes it's the law that needs changing... Have you seen brendas tweets... She, was part of a group directing hate, towards the McCann's..  Hatred, was a word she used... That's abusive imo

  'hating' someone is not against the law. You think it's 'abuse'. How far do you want it to go, no-one online is ever allowed to say they hate someone online?!

   When a driver cuts another driver up and they shout an insult or swear they should be arrested? If you are against abuse why not? It would be a ridiculous notion because people are just expressing how they feel.

Yes I have read Brenda's tweets, I think they are pretty mild to be honest, she wasn't happy with what the McCanns got away with ( leaving the kids) and she was entitled to say so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 02:23:52 PM
  'hating' someone is not against the law. You think it's 'abuse'. How far do you want it to go, no-one online is ever allowed to say they hate someone online?!

   When a driver cuts another driver up and they shout an insult or swear they should be arrested? If you are against abuse why not? It would be a ridiculous notion because people are just expressing how they feel.

Yes I have read Brenda's tweets, I think they are pretty mild to be honest, she wasn't happy with what the McCanns got away with ( leaving the kids) and she was entitled to say so.

Being part of a, group promoting hatred online is abuse afaiac... And needs to be, stopped... Several young people have committed suicide as a result if it... So in my view the law needs, changing
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 23, 2018, 02:36:07 PM
Being part of a, group promoting hatred online is abuse afaiac... And needs to be, stopped... Several young people have committed suicide as a result if it... So in my view the law needs, changing

Completely subjective again. Just view some of the comments about the McCanns online re. the last round of funding for Operation Grange. They are not popular people judging by the majority opinion. Should all those people be arrested?

  People are allowed to feel hatred and express those emotions, it isn't promoting anything.  People driven to suicide are usually being directly harassed or stalked which there is already a law against, so nothing to do with opinions expressed about the McCanns.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2018, 02:37:42 PM
So I have not used the word hate...and not directed any hatred towards Brenda... As you have implied... Like others, you take my posts out if context but none talk of hate


My post said I have no sympathy for those who post on-line abuse... I don't... I do have sympathy for those who suffer mental illness... In that respect I have sympathy  for Brenda

I never said you used the word hate.  I am challenging your claim that you have sympathy for Brenda when your posts display a very different view.

I told my neighbour I hate Golf... so shoot me!

Some people feel it is theor right to be loved and respected regardless of their behaviour. Let us make a comparison.

Is leaving your daughter alone everynight to be 'abducted' by a paedophile gang better or worse- than someone saying they hate you.


ummmm yeah tough one that!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 02:43:38 PM

Can you show where  I have ever said she deservedwhat she got?

Can you show the not nice posts I have made about her?

Just because someone stands firmly behind what they bee does not make that belief correct.

Just because someone stands firmly behind what they bee does not make that belief correct


No it doesn't make yours correct either -  Brenda believed in the mcns at on point .


your quote
How anyone can deny that her tweets about the family of a missing child were  obsessive and in some cases quite menacing is a puzzle to me.
I still wonder how anyone can defend this behaviour under the cloak of entitlement to free speech.
Brenda certainly had a strong belief in her own entitlement to express her own dark thoughts



Who are you really to call her obsessive and menacing ....

I for one can relate to her she didn't believe the mcns

I have said similar things my self and would object to being called menacing or obsessive.


Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 02:50:04 PM
I never said you used the word hate.  I am challenging your claim that you have sympathy for Brenda when your posts display a very different view.

I told my neighbour I hate Golf... so shoot me!

Some people feel it is theor right to be loved and respected regardless of their behaviour. Let us make a comparison.

Is leaving your daughter alone everynight to be 'abducted' by a paedophile gang better or worse- than someone saying they hate you.


ummmm yeah tough one that!

It's a very easy one... Hatred has been responsible for millions if deaths
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 02:50:40 PM

Can I ask what you mean by your question to supporters?

I thought my post was quite clear Erngath.   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 02:52:33 PM
I thought my post was quite clear Erngath.   

Can someone else please explain what this means?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 03:00:08 PM
Just because someone stands firmly behind what they bee does not make that belief correct


No it doesn't make yours correct either -  Brenda believed in the mcns at on point .


your quote
How anyone can deny that her tweets about the family of a missing child were  obsessive and in some cases quite menacing is a puzzle to me.
I still wonder how anyone can defend this behaviour under the cloak of entitlement to free speech.
Brenda certainly had a strong belief in her own entitlement to express her own dark thoughts



Who are you really to call her obsessive and menacing ....

I for one can relate to her she didn't believe the mcns

I have said similar things my self and would object to being called menacing or obsessive.



Object all you like.
Within the much applauded and all encompassing freedom of speech which you totally adhere to I have the complete right to say that I find such behaviour obsessive and menacing
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 03:03:49 PM
some supporters said it was  good that brenda  was  dead  on twitter and in some forums they  went   crazy with it no one better bother me with a  cite because i  wont give one  everybody  not obsessed with the mcanns welfare  saw the torrid of abuse brenda  got

Some of that abuse on here carly scroll down a bit.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.qidn61pAq#.hfVEZDyYx
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 23, 2018, 03:10:11 PM
Right, I'm on here now and if anyone cares to post another rude comment prepare to be moderated or suspended for three days.  The mods are fed up having to clean up this mess every day so watch out!!!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 23, 2018, 03:11:05 PM
Today we can disclose some of the appalling comments sent to her. The first states: “Hoping you get beaten so bad you beg for mercy, only to have gasoline thrown on you and set ablaze.”

The next adds: “You have reached the end of your torturing campaign against the McCann family, understand.”

The third message is a direct threat against her life with the sadistic author stating: “Death is waiting and watching for u @sweepyface..Do you feel it????”

The next attack was so disgusting it is unsuitable for publication.

The last message states: “Sweepyface, we’re coming for you. Do you feel us?? The decent kind folk who pray for this family and their sad loss.You go to hell *****.”



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/169572/Mccann-troll-Brenda-Leyland-driven-to-suicide-after-twitter-death-threats
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 03:12:38 PM
Some of that abuse on here carly scroll down a bit.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.qidn61pAq#.hfVEZDyYx

I see that Brenda tweeted that her hate for Gerry and Kate was "justified"
This hatred she had for Kate and Gerry , a couple she had never met and had no personal experience with must have been very unhealthy for her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 03:13:43 PM
Today we can disclose some of the appalling comments sent to her. The first states: “Hoping you get beaten so bad you beg for mercy, only to have gasoline thrown on you and set ablaze.”

The next adds: “You have reached the end of your torturing campaign against the McCann family, understand.”

The third message is a direct threat against her life with the sadistic author stating: “Death is waiting and watching for u @sweepyface..Do you feel it????”

The next attack was so disgusting it is unsuitable for publication.

The last message states: “Sweepyface, we’re coming for you. Do you feel us?? The decent kind folk who pray for this family and their sad loss.You go to hell *****.”



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/169572/Mccann-troll-Brenda-Leyland-driven-to-suicide-after-twitter-death-threats

Those tweets, are awful... So are you saying it was the tweets that drove her to commit suicide
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 03:16:37 PM
I see that Brenda tweeted that her hate for Gerry and Kate was "justified"
This hatred she had for Kate and Gerry , a couple she had never met and had no personal experience with must have been very unhealthy for her.

Does anyone have the tweets she was responding to?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 03:22:35 PM


Object all you like.
Within the much applauded and all encompassing freedom of speech which you totally adhere to I have the complete right to say that I find such behaviour obsessive and menacing

I have the complete right to say that I find such behaviour obsessive and menacing

Yes well so was brenda she had the right to say what she did and unlike the mcns she is not here to defend herself is she.

So compassionate person fire away with what you thought of her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 03:28:29 PM
I have the complete right to say that I find such behaviour obsessive and menacing

Yes well so was brenda she had the right to say what she did and unlike the mcns she is not here to defend herself is she.

So compassionate person fire away with what you thought of her.

I think it's fair comment to describe the tweets as obsesive and menacing......
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 03:33:24 PM
Did the dossier compllers provide the complete twitter exchanges or just the those  that were critical of the McCanns?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 03:37:56 PM
I have the complete right to say that I find such behaviour obsessive and menacing

Yes well so was brenda she had the right to say what she did and unlike the mcns she is not here to defend herself is she.

So compassionate person fire away with what you thought of her.

Not nice and I do mean your post.
I have never said one unpleasant work about her.

So just to reiterate.
I think her behaviour in her obsessive and menacing tweets ( in my opinion) was totally unjustified.
I think some of her tweets were extremely unpleasant.
I do not know why anyone would feel the need to spend a great deal of their time doing so.

She looked to be a very attractive lady, seemed educated and articulate.
I feel sad that she chose to end own life.
And I feel even sadder for her sons.



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 03:38:11 PM
I think it's fair comment to describe the tweets as obsesive and menacing......

No nit if she believed the mcns involved in maddie's disappearance.

She once supported them  and gave to the fund reasonably generously wonder what changed her faith in them
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 03:42:59 PM
Did the dossier compllers provide the complete twitter exchanges or just the those  that were critical of the McCanns?

Exactly Slartibartfast. Some of Brenda's tweets were in reply and used the same wording as twitter posts sent to her. I have read the full exchanges somewhere but I cant remember exactly where at the moment..  The supporters were fishing.


Note: unsubstantiated allegation removed as it requires a cite
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 03:45:13 PM
No nit if she believed the mcns involved in maddie's disappearance.

She once supported them  and gave to the fund reasonably generously wonder what changed her faith in them

How much did she give and how you know about this
Second time of asking.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 03:47:31 PM
Exactly Slartibartfast. Some of Brenda's tweets were in reply and used the same wording as twitter posts sent to her. I have read the full exchanges somewhere but I cant remember exactly where at the moment..  The supporters were fishing.

Without corroboration your post has no validity... I've read them some time ago and didn't see any fishing
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 04:00:51 PM
Without corroboration your post has no validity... I've read them some time ago and didn't see any fishing

Maybe you could find them again and let us all have a look?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 04:04:11 PM
How much did she give and how you know about this
Second time of asking.

Don't know how much she gave it just said reasonably generous.

Some of B Leyland tweets...

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/6/enhanced/webdr08/longform-original-1512-1412592002-15.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)


https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.qidn61pAq#.hfVEZDyYx
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 04:06:32 PM
Maybe you could find them again and let us all have a look?

Maybe the person who claimed supporters were fishing could find them to substantiate her claim
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 04:16:26 PM
Don't know how much she gave it just said reasonably generous.



https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.qidn61pAq#.hfVEZDyYx

I've read that and seem to miss any reference to donation.
I'll read it again later.
If true, then it was indeed very kind of her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 04:17:34 PM
Maybe the person who claimed supporters were fishing could find them to substantiate her claim

I agree.
I want to know what the accusation is about.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 04:33:30 PM
I've read that and seem to miss any reference to donation.
I'll read it again later.
If true, then it was indeed very kind of her.

Well i cant see her lying about it. yes it was very kind of her she seemed a very nice person.

Its just like most the mccns can bring the worst out in you imo


if you look for the below on the link it is the 4th tweet down underneath it

At times, Leyland painted herself almost as a campaigning journalist, as here on 7 December 2013 when she tried to find evidence that royalties from Kate McCann's book were deposited in the Find Madeleine fund.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 04:38:14 PM
Well i cant see her lying about it. yes it was very kind of her she seemed a very nice person.

Its just like most the mccns can bring the worst out in you imo


if you look for the below on the link it is the 4th tweet down underneath it

At times, Leyland painted herself almost as a campaigning journalist, as here on 7 December 2013 when she tried to find evidence that royalties from Kate McCann's book were deposited in the Find Madeleine fund.

Thank you
I see it now.
I didn't realise it was her own tweet.

Why do the McCanns bring out the worst in you or do you mean Brenda or others?
And what do you mean "by the worst"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 23, 2018, 04:38:40 PM
Don't know how much she gave it just said reasonably generous.

Some of B Leyland tweets...

(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/6/enhanced/webdr08/longform-original-1512-1412592002-15.png?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)


https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.qidn61pAq#.hfVEZDyYx

It is not beyond reason imo to suggest that many people made small donations to the Madeleine Fund initially but subsequently had a change of heart when so much more was known about the case.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 04:41:17 PM
It is not beyond reason imo to suggest that many people made small donations to the Madeleine Fund initially but subsequently had a change of heart when so much more was known about the case.

I can imagine when they were made arguidos some people regretted their decision to give a donation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 04:55:38 PM
Thank you
I see it now.
I didn't realise it was her own tweet.

Why do the McCanns bring out the worst in you or do you mean Brenda or others?
And what do you mean "by the worst"


Talking personally me and by that i can see - how brenda was not that person IRL and should not be judged by her tweet etc etc.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 04:56:33 PM
It is not beyond reason imo to suggest that many people made small donations to the Madeleine Fund initially but subsequently had a change of heart when so much more was known about the case.

That is correct i know my mother and sister donated several times.

As you say had a change of heart when more was known about the case.

Feeling annoyed [not sure if allowed to quote them] but they felt completely conned.

Also lost any sympathy for the mcns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 05:02:56 PM
It is not beyond reason imo to suggest that many people made small donations to the Madeleine Fund initially but subsequently had a change of heart when so much more was known about the case.

Depends what they believe... If they believed the dogs scented a cadaver in the apartment and Maddie's blood was found in the hire car then it's no wonder they feel cheated
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 05:16:09 PM
That is correct i know my mother and sister donated several times.

As you say had a change of heart when more was known about the case.

Feeling annoyed [not sure if allowed to quote them] but they felt completely conned.

Also lost any sympathy for the mcns

I see my post has been removed but when I said according to my son Gerry had a lot of support and was, well liked at Leicester I received a lot of abuse from posters here
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2018, 05:28:14 PM
I see my post has been removed but when I said according to my son Gerry had a lot of support and was, well liked at Leicester I received a lot of abuse from posters here

So does that mean you should give abuse back?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 05:32:05 PM
So does that mean you should give abuse back?

I didn't give any abuse back... I merely pointed out that such a claim was uncorroborated... Is that abuse... That rather supports the claim that brendas tweets were abusive
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 23, 2018, 06:01:20 PM
I didn't give any abuse back... I merely pointed out that such a claim was uncorroborated... Is that abuse... That rather supports the claim that brendas tweets were abusive

IYO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 23, 2018, 06:05:11 PM
Fun and games.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 06:17:02 PM
IYO

I merely said your post was uncorroborated... If that's abuse what does that make brendas comments of her hatred fir the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 23, 2018, 06:26:53 PM
I merely said your post was uncorroborated... If that's abuse what does that make brendas comments of her hatred fir the mccanns
A good test would be, would Brenda's posts on twitter be acceptable on this forum?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 06:31:12 PM
A good test would be, would Brenda's posts on twitter be acceptable on this forum?

I very much hope not.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 23, 2018, 06:34:09 PM
A good test would be, would Brenda's posts on twitter be acceptable on this forum?

Maybe you could start a new thread and we can discuss and  analyse them one by one  8)-)))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 23, 2018, 06:35:31 PM


Obviously because she thought the mcns involved in maddie disappearance.

BL did at one time support the mcns - even adding a substantial amount to the fund.
So she said.  Any actual evidence of this?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2018, 06:52:18 PM
So she said.  Any actual evidence of this?

Looks like it's uncorroborated
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 07:40:18 PM
A good test would be, would Brenda's posts on twitter be acceptable on this forum?

Robittybob1 Here is a link to a list of Brenda's tweets  http://themaddiecasefiles.com/sweepyface-tweet-archive-t23555.html

I assume they are all there.

I am sorry everyone but I have been unable to find the information regarding supporters prior posting etc so I retract what I say for now. When I find it I will put it back up.

However I do have this gem I found (this was posted prior to Martin Brunt accosting Brenda in the street)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DF63-JwXoAAVlmv.jpg)
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 23, 2018, 07:46:43 PM
Robittybob1 Here is a link to a list of Brenda's tweets  http://themaddiecasefiles.com/sweepyface-tweet-archive-t23555.html

I assume they are all there.

I am sorry everyone but I have been unable to find the information regarding supporters prior posting etc so I retract what I say for now. When I find it I will put it back up.

However I do have this gem I found (this was posted prior to Martin Brunt accosting Brenda in the street)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DF63-JwXoAAVlmv.jpg)


No one's home should be disclosed on the internet.

I'm reminded of the leaflet campaign by some  sceptics targeting the homes of the McCann's neighbours
Quite shocking.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 23, 2018, 08:21:54 PM
Her posts weren't abusive or no more abusive than many other tweets I have read since imo.  There is a particularly nasty one called Michael Walker who seems to take delight in calling Brenda sweepyknickers following her death.

One thing I want to say though about Brenda's posts is that I disagree completely with her posts about AT.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 23, 2018, 08:28:00 PM
Her posts weren't abusive or no more abusive than many other tweets I have read since imo.  There is a particularly nasty one called Michael Walker who seems to take delight in calling Brenda sweepyknickers following her death.

One thing I want to say though about Brenda's posts is that I disagree completely with her posts about AT.

Some tweeters simply get carried away with it all and forget the real life consequences which could follow.

Note to members: Do not post comments from anonymous blog sites.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 23, 2018, 09:22:37 PM
Robittybob1 Here is a link to a list of Brenda's tweets  http://themaddiecasefiles.com/sweepyface-tweet-archive-t23555.html

I assume they are all there.

I am sorry everyone but I have been unable to find the information regarding supporters prior posting etc so I retract what I say for now. When I find it I will put it back up.

However I do have this gem I found (this was posted prior to Martin Brunt accosting Brenda in the street)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DF63-JwXoAAVlmv.jpg)
Have you read the tweets Brenda made on September 29th?  This is her first one of the day (thanks for the link) written BEFORE the tweet you pictured.  Do you think it (and others)might give that tweet some useful context?  Here it is:

516506719313473536|Mon Sep 29 08:36:12 +0000 2014|#mccann Outing Shills who have threatened others, is no different to FBI releasing name of Jihadi John, 4 good of safety
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 23, 2018, 09:29:22 PM
Another of Brenda’s tweets that morning written BEFORE the tweet pictured above

516511484919439360|Mon Sep 29 08:55:08 +0000 2014|#mccann Not trying to b flippant, however harm is harm in whatever degree , if it silences Amys mischief then that can only be good

The “it” being referred to being the outing of the tweeter she believed to be Amy Tierney.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 12:19:58 AM
IMO it is all madness.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 24, 2018, 06:35:19 AM
So does that mean you should give abuse back?

I didn't see any abuse to that poster, only other posters trying to clarify it.  But then one person's abuse is another person's discussion on here and elsewhere it would seem.

Some people are certainly more sensitive than others when posts are concerned although their own posts may be considered abusive by others. This post is not with any particular poster in mind and is IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 24, 2018, 07:45:10 AM
Another of Brenda’s tweets that morning written BEFORE the tweet pictured above

516511484919439360|Mon Sep 29 08:55:08 +0000 2014|#mccann Not trying to b flippant, however harm is harm in whatever degree , if it silences Amys mischief then that can only be good

The “it” being referred to being the outing of the tweeter she believed to be Amy Tierney.

I take your point Vertigo Swirl and it is duly noted. I have already mentioned my distaste at Brenda's posts about AT already.

Did you see my second image with Vee8's post, that I found using a google image search.  That indicates that he at least had prior knowledge of the dossier and what was about to happen, these happenings of course lead ultimately to Brenda's death. So if Vee8 from that forum knew about the dossier, how many others on there were complicit.

Either that or Vee8 is a psychic.

All IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 07:50:28 AM
I take your point Vertigo Swirl and it is duly noted. I have already mentioned my distaste at Brenda's posts about AT already.

Did you see my second image with Vee8's post, that I found using a google image search.  That indicates that he at least had prior knowledge of the dossier and what was about to happen, these happenings of course lead ultimately to Brenda's death. So if Vee8 from that forum knew about the dossier, how many others on there were complicit.

Either that or Vee8 is a psychic.

All IMO.
You could be giving 99.9% of psychics a bad name.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 08:20:21 AM
we seem to be going away from the thread title...the question is ...did the dossier compilers have the right to go to the ppress...the answer has to be yes...imo....who has the right to stop them
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
we seem to be going away from the thread title...the question is ...did the dossier compilers have the right to go to the ppress...the answer has to be yes...imo....who has the right to stop them
How did you go from this: "Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?" to that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 08:33:29 AM
How did you go from this: "Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?" to that?

because due process means that if the police do not take action the compilers have no right to take the dossier to the press...which supposedely...denies brenda ...due process
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2018, 08:43:11 AM
because due process means that if the police do not take action the compilers have no right to take the dossier to the press...which supposedely...denies brenda ...due process

That way leads to vigilantes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 08:46:59 AM
That way leads to vigilantes.

brendas way leads to vigilantes.....taking a greivance to the press is perfectly acceptable ......
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2018, 09:11:04 AM
brendas way leads to vigilantes.....taking a greivance to the press is perfectly acceptable ......

So when she was trying to get the press involved it was fine?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 09:21:24 AM
brendas way leads to vigilantes.....taking a greivance to the press is perfectly acceptable ......

Brenda put her opinions across [strongly] but it is what she believed in.

The press were happy enough  to jump on it because of public interest in mcn case.

Imagine someone [maybe already have] taking a dossier on the mcns.

The press would not dare touch it with a barge pole [we no why]

So this is all still very one sided, even though mcns have not been cleared.

When you say Brenda's way leads to vigilantes, you do realise. vigilantes would be mcn supporters.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 09:29:14 AM
So when she was trying to get the press involved it was fine?

Of course... But no need, for abuse
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 09:30:13 AM
So she said.  Any actual evidence of this?

Why would Brenda lie.

Why do you need evidence on this.

Its the evidence of maddie being abducted , you should be more concerned about.

Is there any actual evidence maddie was ....No

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 09:31:22 AM
Brenda put her opinions across [strongly] but it is what she believed in.

The press were happy enough  to jump on it because of public interest in mcn case.

Imagine someone [maybe already have] taking a dossier on the mcns.

The press would not dare touch it with a barge pole [we no why]

So this is all still very one sided, even though mcns have not been cleared.

When you say Brenda's way leads to vigilantes, you do realise. vigilantes would be mcn supporters.

I'm referring to brendas way encouraging people to take vigilante action against the mccanns
You need ti understand that because I'm a, supporter I don't support everything  that every supporter does... I don't support abuse for instance
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 09:33:28 AM
Why would Brenda lie.

Why do you need evidence on this.

Its the evidence of maddie being abducted , you should be more concerned about.

Is there any actual evidence maddie was ....No

Asking for evidence is not accusing someone of lying.... Otherwise anyone could say anything on here and expect it to be accepted  as fact....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 09:36:32 AM
Brenda put her opinions across [strongly] but it is what she believed in.

The press were happy enough  to jump on it because of public interest in mcn case.

Imagine someone [maybe already have] taking a dossier on the mcns.

The press would not dare touch it with a barge pole [we no why]

So this is all still very one sided, even though mcns have not been cleared.

When you say Brenda's way leads to vigilantes, you do realise. vigilantes would be mcn supporters.


Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the public accusing a couple of being complicit in their child's disappearance.
Vigilantes are the ones who organise meetings to further discuss their campaign progress against the family of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who send FOI requests to obtain information about the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the neighbours of the parents of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who visit and leave a leaflet at the work place of a parent of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who photograph the siblings of a missing child and put said photos on the internet.
 Vigilantes are those who set up Facebook sites dedicated to maligning the parents of a missing child.
I'm sure I haven't listed all the vigilante behaviour.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 09:56:07 AM

Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the public accusing a couple of being complicit in their child's disappearance.
Vigilantes are the ones who organise meetings to further discuss their campaign progress against the family of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who send FOI requests to obtain information about the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the neighbours of the parents of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who visit and leave a leaflet at the work place of a parent of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who photograph the siblings of a missing child and put said photos on the internet.
 Vigilantes are those who set up Facebook sites dedicated to maligning the parents of a missing child.
I'm sure I haven't listened all the vigilante behaviour.

None of the listed are actually a crime are they.

Same as Brenda was not commiting a crime.

Maybe you dont understand the vigilate meaning. so i have looked it up E

Imo what the above did was to do just that.



Vigilante is a form of the word "vigilant," which means keeping a watchful or close eye on events and people. Sometimes a vigilante will make news for catching a criminal, and sometimes vigilante groups form to target crimes in a bad neighborhood.
vigilante - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vigilante
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 09:58:42 AM
None of the listed are actually a crime are they.

Same as Brenda was not commiting a crime.

Maybe you dont understand the vigilate meaning. so i have looked it up E

Imo what the above did was to do just that.



Vigilante is a form of the word "vigilant," which means keeping a watchful or close eye on events and people. Sometimes a vigilante will make news for catching a criminal, and sometimes vigilante groups form to target crimes in a bad neighborhood.
vigilante - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vigilante


You obviously think the behaviour I listed is perfectly acceptable.
I don't.

How you can believe it is acceptable to leaflet the McCanns neighbours or put photographs of Madeleine's siblings on the internet is acceptable is beyond my understanding?
That behaviour may not be criminal but it is most certainly not within the bounds of common decency.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 24, 2018, 09:59:49 AM
None of the listed are actually a crime are they.

Same as Brenda was not commiting a crime.

Maybe you dont understand the vigilate meaning. so i have looked it up E

Imo what the above did was to do just that.



Vigilante is a form of the word "vigilant," which means keeping a watchful or close eye on events and people. Sometimes a vigilante will make news for catching a criminal, and sometimes vigilante groups form to target crimes in a bad neighborhood.
vigilante - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vigilante

i find the wording the family     of a  missiing child emotional blackmail if maddie is    alive she isnt a  child anymore  its just emotional properganda  IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 10:04:23 AM
i find the wording the family     of a  missiing child emotional blackmail if maddie is    alive she isnt a  child anymore  its just emotional properganda  IMO

She was a missing CHILD when these abhorrent, IMO ,behaviours were enacted!

Reading my posts?
Not on ignore?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 10:19:08 AM
Everyone  has the right to take their concerns to the press... It's ridiculous to try and restrict this right
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 10:35:04 AM

You obviously think the behaviour I listed is perfectly acceptable.
I don't.

How you can believe it is acceptable to leaflet the McCanns neighbours or put photographs of Madeleine's siblings on the internet is acceptable is beyond my understanding?
That behaviour may not be criminal but it is most certainly not within the bounds of common decency.

Ihave no problem with what anyone does - to get to the truth of what happened to maddie.


That behaviour is obviously from people who do not believe maddie was abducted.

How can it be acceptable to leave babies on there own

How can you call spending other peoples money to do a witch hunt on GA etc etc common decency.

There is many photos of mcn twins on internet allowed by mcns when it suits.

You believe mcns did nothing wrong ...I Don't.

And neither did brenda leyland.

She never had the chance to say why she did it apart from being entitled - and she was.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 10:37:04 AM
Ihave no problem with what anyone does - to get to the truth of what happened to maddie.


That behaviour is obviously from people who do not believe maddie was abducted.

How can it be acceptable to leave babies on there own

How can you call spending other peoples money to do a witch hunt on GA etc etc common decency.

There is many photos of mcn twins on internet allowed by mcns when it suits.

You believe mcns did nothing wrong ...I Don't.

And neither did brenda leyland.

She never had the chance to say why she did it apart from being entitled - and she was.

All this is off topic... Or is every thread going to be an acceptable  child care thread
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 24, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
  Remember the Lord MacAlpine debacle?

He was outed ( by a concerned citizen) on live TV as being a suspect of child abuse.  He won various apologies, damages and OFCOM ruled;

' both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.'

He was found to have done nothing illegal. So why did he get apologies and damages when Brenda got thrown to the dogs?  Is it because he had more money and influence than she did and she was a disposable 'no-body'?

Quote
During a live broadcast of This Morning on 8 November 2012, presenter Phillip Schofield produced a list of people linked to allegations of child abuse, which he said he had put together by searching on the internet.

He handed the list - which included Lord McAlpine's name - to Prime Minister David Cameron, asking whether there should be an overarching inquiry into the recent scandal.

The list was briefly and inadvertently broadcast by ITV.

ITV accepted this was "an uncharacteristic lapse in editorial judgement on the part of the programme's editorial team".

Ofcom ruled both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.

Both the BBC and ITV subsequently apologised to Lord McAlpine and paid substantial libel damages.

At the time the Tory peer had said it was "terrifying" to find himself "a figure of public hatred".

ITV also fell foul of rules relating to providing adequate protection for members of the public from the inclusion of harmful material.


 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 10:40:43 AM
Ihave no problem with what anyone does - to get to the truth of what happened to maddie.


That behaviour is obviously from people who do not believe maddie was abducted.

How can it be acceptable to leave babies on there own

How can you call spending other peoples money to do a witch hunt on GA etc etc common decency.

There is many photos of mcn twins on internet allowed by mcns when it suits.

You believe mcns did nothing wrong ...I Don't.

And neither did brenda leyland.

She never had the chance to say why she did it apart from being entitled - and she was.

Your attitude and philosophy is neatly stated in this part of your post."I have no problem with what anyone does-to get to the truth of what happened to Maddie"
Exactly!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 10:43:30 AM
All this is off topic... Or is every thread going to be an acceptable  child care thread

It' has developed into what is acceptable behaviour on the part of sceptics and supporters in the aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 24, 2018, 10:45:19 AM
  Remember the Lord MacAlpine debacle?

He was outed ( by a concerned citizen) on live TV as being a suspect of child abuse.  He won various apologies, damages and OFCOM ruled;

' both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.'

He was found to have done nothing illegal. So why did he get apologies and damages when Brenda got thrown to the dogs?  Is it because he had more money and influence than she did and she was a disposable 'no-body'?


Quite possibly because he was still alive to fight his case while she was dead.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 10:47:30 AM
  Remember the Lord MacAlpine debacle?

He was outed ( by a concerned citizen) on live TV as being a suspect of child abuse.  He won various apologies, damages and OFCOM ruled;

' both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.'

He was found to have done nothing illegal. So why did he get apologies and damages when Brenda got thrown to the dogs?  Is it because he had more money and influence than she did and she was a disposable 'no-body'?
snip
  Remember the Lord MacAlpine debacle?

He was outed ( by a concerned citizen) on live TV as being a suspect of child abuse.  He won various apologies, damages and OFCOM ruled;

' both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.'

He was found to have done nothing illegal. So why did he get apologies and damages when Brenda got thrown to the dogs?  Is it because he had more money and influence than she did and she was a disposable 'no-body'?



Exactly great post it more or less what i was trying to point out

Brenda didn't have the money

T
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 10:49:51 AM
Your attitude and philosophy is neatly stated in this part of your post."I have no problem with what anyone does-to get to the truth of what happened to Maddie"
Exactly!

OH right  @)(++(*

Well i would certainly have my due process if anyone doorstepped me. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Gertrude on August 24, 2018, 10:54:01 AM

Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the public accusing a couple of being complicit in their child's disappearance.
Vigilantes are the ones who organise meetings to further discuss their campaign progress against the family of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who send FOI requests to obtain information about the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the neighbours of the parents of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who visit and leave a leaflet at the work place of a parent of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who photograph the siblings of a missing child and put said photos on the internet.
 Vigilantes are those who set up Facebook sites dedicated to maligning the parents of a missing child.
I'm sure I haven't listened all the vigilante behaviour.

  The definition of vigilante is  "a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate."

 Dropping leaflets is not 'law enforcement' and neither is setting up facebook sites, or sending off for FOI requests. Do you really think people who lawfully request information are doing something wrong?

   The taking of photographs thing would be stalking, which is an offence obviously. The things you listed are irrelevant to Brenda Leyland, as she didn't do any of them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
OH right  @)(++(*

Well i would certainly have my due process if anyone doorstepped me. 8((()*/


You obviously approve of the vigilante type action of those sceptics involved in that behaviour.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 10:58:12 AM
OH right  @)(++(*

Well i would certainly have my due process if anyone doorstepped me. 8((()*/

What would you do
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 10:58:52 AM
  The definition of vigilante is  "a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate."

 Dropping leaflets is not 'law enforcement' and neither is setting up facebook sites, or sending off for FOI requests. Do you really think people who lawfully request information are doing something wrong?

   The taking of photographs thing would be stalking, which is an offence obviously. The things you listed are irrelevant to Brenda Leyland, as she didn't do any of them.

Change my post to vigilante type of behaviour then and it applies to the disgraceful behaviour listed.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 24, 2018, 11:01:36 AM

Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the public accusing a couple of being complicit in their child's disappearance.
Vigilantes are the ones who organise meetings to further discuss their campaign progress against the family of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who send FOI requests to obtain information about the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the neighbours of the parents of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who visit and leave a leaflet at the work place of a parent of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who photograph the siblings of a missing child and put said photos on the internet.
 Vigilantes are those who set up Facebook sites dedicated to maligning the parents of a missing child.
I'm sure I haven't listed all the vigilante behaviour.

Not really a strict definition of what a vigilante is.  People who participate in those sort of activities you listed are trouble makers or hooligans imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 11:04:24 AM
Not really a strict definition of what a vigilante is.  People who participate in those activities you listed are trouble makers.

The word vigilante was brought into the thread and I used it to make my post.
I agree trouble makers would be a better word but I still find some of the behaviour verging on vigilante type of behaviour.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 24, 2018, 11:08:00 AM
  Remember the Lord MacAlpine debacle?

He was outed ( by a concerned citizen) on live TV as being a suspect of child abuse.  He won various apologies, damages and OFCOM ruled;

' both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.'

He was found to have done nothing illegal. So why did he get apologies and damages when Brenda got thrown to the dogs?  Is it because he had more money and influence than she did and she was a disposable 'no-body'?

Could it be that some of the comments made by BL as @sweepyface were morally wrong rather than being illegal?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 11:09:07 AM
Could it be that some of the comments made by BL as @sweepyface were morally wrong rather than being illegal?

Of course
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 24, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Not really a strict definition of what a vigilante is.  People who participate in those sort of activities you listed are trouble makers or hooligans imo.

That description could equally apply to the dossier makers - IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 12:18:29 PM

You obviously approve of the vigilante type action of those sceptics involved in that behaviour.

what behaviour, what vigilanti type action.

You are either a vigilante or not - what you posted in your list was not vigilantes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 12:20:13 PM
What would you do


What i do - what i am entitled to do.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 12:21:09 PM

Quite possibly because he was still alive to fight his case while she was dead.
At least you are observant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 24, 2018, 12:29:33 PM
At least you are observant.

Oh aye, Hawkeye that's me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 12:32:23 PM
what behaviour, what vigilanti type action.

You are either a vigilante or not - what you posted in your list was not vigilantes.

Ok.

Most of it was exceptionally disgraceful, against most people's sense of decency , completely unwarranted and troublesome.
Better ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 12:33:07 PM
Oh aye, Hawkeye that's me.
M.A.S.H
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 24, 2018, 12:34:48 PM
M.A.S.H

Very appropriate, the title of the theme song being 'Suicide is painless'
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 12:40:09 PM
Very appropriate, the title of the theme song being 'Suicide is painless'

Sadly not to those left behind.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2018, 12:43:33 PM
  Remember the Lord MacAlpine debacle?

He was outed ( by a concerned citizen) on live TV as being a suspect of child abuse.  He won various apologies, damages and OFCOM ruled;

' both programmes had breached the broadcasting code and had treated Lord McAlpine unfairly, causing him distress and embarrassment.'

He was found to have done nothing illegal. So why did he get apologies and damages when Brenda got thrown to the dogs?  Is it because he had more money and influence than she did and she was a disposable 'no-body'?

Do you have any idea what Brenda Leyland's economic situation was to enable you to make that assessment which sounds a bit like the tired old class argument used by some in relation to Madeleine's family v council house families.

Lord McCalpine took legal action and won redress as a result.  Tragically Brenda Leyland did not and denied herself the right to use the due process referred to in the thread title.

Ironically Gerry McCann was actively campaigning to allow ordinary individuals a measure of protection from press barons and intrusion while Brenda Leland was busying herself in her tweeting campaign involving him and his family.
Funny old world.

Snip
In the statement, the McCanns said: “Despite the history of admitted libels in respect of my family by so many newspapers, the Sunday Times still felt able to print an indefensible front page story last year and then force us to instruct lawyers – and even to start court proceedings – before it behaved reasonably. But the damage to reputation and to feelings has been done and the Sunday Times can sit back and enjoy its sales boost based on lies and abuse.

“This is exactly why parliament and Lord Justice Leveson called for truly effective independent self-regulation of newspapers – to protect ordinary members of the public from this sort of abuse. The fact is that most families could not take the financial and legal risk of going to the high court and facing down a big press bully as we have. That is why News UK and the big newspapers have opposed Leveson’s reforms and the arbitration scheme which is a necessary part of it.”

Carter-Ruck agreed to act on a no-win, no-fee basis, a system threatened by proposed changes to the law. The £55,000 is to be donated to two charities for missing people and sick children.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/02/gerry-mccann-madeleine-sunday-times-libel-payout
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 12:48:39 PM
Very appropriate, the title of the theme song being 'Suicide is painless'

Sorry I didn't mean to be callous.  I had forgotten that till you reminded me.

The song ends "and you can do the same thing if you please".    Strange to have a song that advocates suicide on a very popular program in its day.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 12:52:51 PM
You are making a very serious accusation there carly.    No one knows what drove BL to kill herself,  she had attempted it once before.   It could have been a row with one of her sons for example.   Martin Brunt stated she was in a good frame of mind when he last spoke to her.


IMO you are very very wrong with that post L

nothing to do with any row with sons


Asked by the coroner if there was anything which indicated a concern for her life, Mr Brunt said: "No, but when I asked her how she was, she said 'oh I have thought about ending it all but I am feeling better - I have had a drink and spoken to my son'".



The key issues in this case skilfully avoided and evaded by everyone - a vulnerable woman

pushed over the edge by a bullying, story-hungry, pro-McCann media empire,

A and no-one seems to bat an eyelid or raise even a whisper of protest. IMO



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 12:53:52 PM
Ok.

Most of it was exceptionally disgraceful, against most people's sense of decency , completely unwarranted and troublesome.
Better ?

You don't have to please me E

But thanks for the attempt.  8((()*/

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 01:00:40 PM
Do you have any idea what Brenda Leyland's economic situation was to enable you to make that assessment which sounds a bit like the tired old class argument used by some in relation to Madeleine's family v council house families.

Lord McCalpine took legal action and won redress as a result.  Tragically Brenda Leyland did not and denied herself the right to use the due process referred to in the thread title.

Ironically Gerry McCann was actively campaigning to allow ordinary individuals a measure of protection from press barons and intrusion while Brenda Leland was busying herself in her tweeting campaign involving him and his family.
Funny old world.

Snip
In the statement, the McCanns said: “Despite the history of admitted libels in respect of my family by so many newspapers, the Sunday Times still felt able to print an indefensible front page story last year and then force us to instruct lawyers – and even to start court proceedings – before it behaved reasonably. But the damage to reputation and to feelings has been done and the Sunday Times can sit back and enjoy its sales boost based on lies and abuse.

“This is exactly why parliament and Lord Justice Leveson called for truly effective independent self-regulation of newspapers – to protect ordinary members of the public from this sort of abuse. The fact is that most families could not take the financial and legal risk of going to the high court and facing down a big press bully as we have. That is why News UK and the big newspapers have opposed Leveson’s reforms and the arbitration scheme which is a necessary part of it.”

Carter-Ruck agreed to act on a no-win, no-fee basis, a system threatened by proposed changes to the law. The £55,000 is to be donated to two charities for missing people and sick children.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/02/gerry-mccann-madeleine-sunday-times-libel-payout


Ironically Gerry McCann was actively campaigning to allow ordinary individuals a measure of protection from press barons and intrusion while Brenda Leland was busying herself in her tweeting campaign involving him and his family.
Funny old world.



In short.

None of the messages sent by Brenda Leyland were directed personally at the mcns,


It wasn't a campaign it was her right. of opinion and free speech B
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 01:01:29 PM

What i do - what i am entitled to do.

You are not entitled to do much... That's why I asked
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 01:03:14 PM

Ironically Gerry McCann was actively campaigning to allow ordinary individuals a measure of protection from press barons and intrusion while Brenda Leland was busying herself in her tweeting campaign involving him and his family.
Funny old world.



In short.

None of the messages sent by Brenda Leyland were directed personally at the mcns,


It wasn't a campaign it was her right. of opinion and free speech B

They don't have to be directed personally  towards the McCann's... Brenda enjoyed her free speech..... And so did Brunt and the newspapers
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on August 24, 2018, 01:21:12 PM
Did it sound as if Brenda was suicidal based on this tweet?


516626506563731457|Mon Sep 29 16:32:12 +0000 2014|@RothleyPillow #mccann I am not suffering, the stalking and threats have been most useful for me, cannot thank the perps enough
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 01:43:23 PM
You are not entitled to do much... That's why I asked



Maybe not , thanks to the mccanns and the fund they used to put that in place.

back on topic.

They don't have to be directed personally  towards the McCann's... Brenda enjoyed her free speech..... And so did Brunt and the newspapers

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2018, 01:57:30 PM

IMO you are very very wrong with that post L

nothing to do with any row with sons


Asked by the coroner if there was anything which indicated a concern for her life, Mr Brunt said: "No, but when I asked her how she was, she said 'oh I have thought about ending it all but I am feeling better - I have had a drink and spoken to my son'".



The key issues in this case skilfully avoided and evaded by everyone - a vulnerable woman

pushed over the edge by a bullying, story-hungry, pro-McCann media empire,

A and no-one seems to bat an eyelid or raise even a whisper of protest. IMO

Suicide and what drives individuals to it is a far more complex issue than you are crediting it with.  The inquest verdict pointed the finger of blame at no-one ... in my opinion it is inappropriate for anyone to second guess that.

Brenda's son who seems to have been her confidant ... even with knowledge of his mother's medical history and previous suicidal tendencies ... did not suspect anything was amiss with her and thought when he couldn't reach her she was merely lying low.

Snip
Leyand’s younger son, Ben, who was not present, said in a statement she was a loving mother, a proud and stubborn woman, and “could not bear to think she could be disliked by those in her community”. He said she suffered from extreme bouts of depression and anxiety and was on medication.

Before the Sky News approach, she had been upset by a “fractious” dispute with a neighbour over an issue concerning a wall.

He had “no doubt” from the panic in his mother’s voice when she telephoned to tell him of the Sky News incident that “this was the final straw that pushed her then to do what she did”.

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred. He was trying to organise legal advice for her, he said. In her last email to him, she said she felt “cheerier”.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/20/sky-news-mccann-brenda-leyland

So why Martin Brunt should have suspected her vulnerability is a mystery to me ... almost as much of a mystery as why her family's obvious desire for privacy is abused and why Brenda Leyland herself is not allowed to rest in peace in the anonymity she valued as some insist more than life itself.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 01:58:48 PM
They don't have to be directed personally  towards the McCann's... Brenda enjoyed her free speech..... And so did Brunt and the newspapers






For me, it highlights that Sky and all involved in the decision making processes within it, are just part of the Establishment.

Certainly with regards to the McCann affair, Sky have demonstrated a bias in the reporting, offering the viewers a one-sided account.

A Broadcaster should be impartial and unbiased.Cover all opinions equally.

I hardly think that Sky have been anywhere near those values in the McCann case.

Instead, individuals who voice concerns about the honesty and innocence of the mcns

in the disappearance of maddie, are targeted as 'trolls'.

Sky took a pathetic dossier of alleged 'abusive' comments about the mcns as a reason to support the parents.


some how included in davels quote apologies
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2018, 02:02:00 PM





For me, it highlights that Sky and all involved in the decision making processes within it, are just part of the Establishment.

Certainly with regards to the McCann affair, Sky have demonstrated a bias in the reporting, offering the viewers a one-sided account.

A Broadcaster should be impartial and unbiased.Cover all opinions equally.

I hardly think that Sky have been anywhere near those values in the McCann case.

Instead, individuals who voice concerns about the honesty and innocence of the mcns

in the disappearance of maddie, are targeted as 'trolls'.

Sky took a pathetic dossier of alleged 'abusive' comments about the mcns as a reason to support the parents.


some how included in davels quote apologies

Brenda was offered the opportunity to make her case on prime time television by Martin Brunt ... what I would call the right of reply ... she didn't avail herself of it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 02:08:29 PM
Suicide and what drives individuals to it is a far more complex issue than you are crediting it with.  The inquest verdict pointed the finger of blame at no-one ... in my opinion it is inappropriate for anyone to second guess that.

Brenda's son who seems to have been her confidant ... even with knowledge of his mother's medical history and previous suicidal tendencies ... did not suspect anything was amiss with her and thought when he couldn't reach her she was merely lying low.

Snip
Leyand’s younger son, Ben, who was not present, said in a statement she was a loving mother, a proud and stubborn woman, and “could not bear to think she could be disliked by those in her community”. He said she suffered from extreme bouts of depression and anxiety and was on medication.

Before the Sky News approach, she had been upset by a “fractious” dispute with a neighbour over an issue concerning a wall.

He had “no doubt” from the panic in his mother’s voice when she telephoned to tell him of the Sky News incident that “this was the final straw that pushed her then to do what she did”.

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred. He was trying to organise legal advice for her, he said. In her last email to him, she said she felt “cheerier”.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/20/sky-news-mccann-brenda-leyland

So why Martin Brunt should have suspected her vulnerability is a mystery to me ... almost as much of a mystery as why her family's obvious desire for privacy is abused and why Brenda Leyland herself is not allowed to rest in peace in the anonymity she valued as some insist more than life itself.


So why Martin Brunt should have suspected her vulnerability is a mystery to me ... almost as much of a mystery as why her family's obvious desire for privacy is abused and why Brenda Leyland herself is not allowed to rest in peace in the anonymity she valued as some insist more than life itself.


Brunt spoke with her inside and out the house, he imo will have seen that distress.

He called Brenda she told him she was thinking of ending it all

opening post
Brenda Leyland was tried and convicted by the media long before SY had looked at the facts surrounding her tweets and found she had broke no law.

Is it right that, although not charged with any crime, she was vilified like a common criminal or was she, like ever other U.K. citizen, entitled not to have her identity made public until she was actually accused of a crime ?



Alive or dead brenda Did nothing wrong ....that is my point.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 02:13:19 PM
Brenda was offered the opportunity to make her case on prime time television by Martin Brunt ... what I would call the right of reply ... she didn't avail herself of it.


No she killed herself instead, brunt told her she was being reported to CPS.

Her son said

He said she was 'proud but stubborn’, was worried about how she was viewed by others in her 'social circle’, and her exposure as a troll was the 'final straw

In her state she wasn't going to hang around.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 02:14:23 PM

No she killed herself instead, brunt told her she was being reported to CPS.

Her son said

He said she was 'proud but stubborn’, was worried about how she was viewed by others in her 'social circle’, and her exposure as a troll was the 'final straw

In her state she wasn't going to hang around.

Final straw... So she, was already nearly there
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2018, 04:46:37 PM
Sorry I didn't mean to be callous.  I had forgotten that till you reminded me.

The song ends "and you can do the same thing if you please".    Strange to have a song that advocates suicide on a very popular program in its day.

If you watch the film it has very different connotations.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2018, 04:48:20 PM
Did it sound as if Brenda was suicidal based on this tweet?


516626506563731457|Mon Sep 29 16:32:12 +0000 2014|@RothleyPillow #mccann I am not suffering, the stalking and threats have been most useful for me, cannot thank the perps enough

The day before the doorstepping.

No she didn’t, shows what effect it had.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 05:05:37 PM
The day before the doorstepping.

No she didn’t, shows what effect it had.


Seems she did the next day


 

Daily Mirror

Madeleine McCann: Sky News journalist 'devastated' after being told internet troll killed herself following TV report
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-sky-news-journalist-5371486
15:34, 20 March 2015
By Martin Fricker


snip

Targeted: Kate McCann and her husband Gerry McCann
Her messages featured in a dossier of evidence given to Scotland Yard about suspected online hounding of the McCanns.
She was confronted at her home in Burton Overy, Leics, by Sky News crime correspondent Martin Brunt last September.
After her face appeared in a broadcast on the TV channel two days later, Mrs Leyland checked into a Leicester hotel and killed herself.
Mr Brunt told her inquest today he was left “devastated” after being told about her death by his boss, Sky News head Jonathan Levy.
“I was devastated and I still am,” he added. “The enormity of what happened will always be with me."
Her son Ben Leyland, who lives in America, said her ‘outing’ as @sweepyface left his mother “a broken wreck”.
He added: "She was completely destroyed by what had occurred. It was the final straw that pushed my mum to do what she did."
Mr Brunt told the hearing at Leicester Town Hall how he discovered Mrs Leyland’s identity after being handed the dossier by a third party.
He went to her home with a cameraman on September 30 last year and confronted her about the tweets - which were later found to not be unlawful.
Mrs Leyland invited him into her home after the initial confrontation and seemed “calm” and rational, he added.
She told him she was “entitled” to tweet her concerns the McCanns had left their children alone on the night Madeleine disappeared in 2007.
Mr Brunt, a respected veteran journalist, said he ended the conversation by telling her: “I hope I have not ruined your day”.
She replied: “I don’t know yet if you have ruined my day or my life."



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 05:18:48 PM
"She replied: “I don’t know yet if you have ruined my day or my life.""  The only reason we know this is that Martin Brunt reported it to us.

It shows she was suicidal at that time IMO.  Probably went unnoticed at the time.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:31:40 PM
Why would Brenda lie.

Why do you need evidence on this.

Its the evidence of maddie being abducted , you should be more concerned about.

Is there any actual evidence maddie was ....No
Why would she lie about giving a substantial donation to the Madeleine Fund?  I think the answer’s obvious.  It gives her (in her view) a legitimate grievance, as a donor to the fund.  If she hadn’t donated to the fund she has less of a right to compain about it IMO.  It makes her look good too, doesn’t it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 24, 2018, 05:35:12 PM
"She replied: “I don’t know yet if you have ruined my day or my life.""  The only reason we know this is that Martin Brunt reported it to us.

It shows she was suicidal at that time IMO.  Probably went unnoticed at the time.

She had attempted suicide before.
There must have been reasons which led her to attempt to take her own life long before the exposure on television.
Recently a young lad known to my grandson hanged himself after a quarrel with his girlfriend.
Noone not even his parents ever, ever imagined he would end his life.
The sadness left behind is unrelenting.

So much of the sympathy shown is for the person who chose to end their own life but as someone who witnessed the devastating effect of the suicides of parents of pupils, my sympathy is for those who have to carry the burden of living with the fact that a loved family member chose to die and leave them.
Heartbreaking.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:37:43 PM
i find the wording the family     of a  missiing child emotional blackmail if maddie is    alive she isnt a  child anymore  its just emotional properganda  IMO
When did Madeleine cease beimg a child then?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:39:06 PM

Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the public accusing a couple of being complicit in their child's disappearance.
Vigilantes are the ones who organise meetings to further discuss their campaign progress against the family of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who send FOI requests to obtain information about the ongoing investigation into the disappearance of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who leaflet the neighbours of the parents of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who visit and leave a leaflet at the work place of a parent of a missing child.
Vigilantes are the ones who photograph the siblings of a missing child and put said photos on the internet.
 Vigilantes are those who set up Facebook sites dedicated to maligning the parents of a missing child.
I'm sure I haven't listed all the vigilante behaviour.
Vigilantes put out an apb on social media alerting other like minded souls of the exact whereabouts of their targets, like in a restaurant for example.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:42:31 PM
Ihave no problem with what anyone does - to get to the truth of what happened to maddie.


That behaviour is obviously from people who do not believe maddie was abducted.

How can it be acceptable to leave babies on there own

How can you call spending other peoples money to do a witch hunt on GA etc etc common decency.

There is many photos of mcn twins on internet allowed by mcns when it suits.

You believe mcns did nothing wrong ...I Don't.

And neither did brenda leyland.

She never had the chance to say why she did it apart from being entitled - and she was.
That’s why people like us supporters have a problem with you “justice seekers”, the fact that you see nothing wrong with the kind of behaviour listed by Erngarth, but fall into a righteous fury because someone compiled a dossier of abuse directed towards this family and passed it on to the police and media frankly boggles the mind.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:45:48 PM
Very appropriate, the title of the theme song being 'Suicide is painless'
I always found that an absurd lyric.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:47:59 PM

Ironically Gerry McCann was actively campaigning to allow ordinary individuals a measure of protection from press barons and intrusion while Brenda Leland was busying herself in her tweeting campaign involving him and his family.
Funny old world.



In short.

None of the messages sent by Brenda Leyland were directed personally at the mcns,


It wasn't a campaign it was her right. of opinion and free speech B
The dossier compilers had the right to do what they did too, as did Martin Brunt.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: kizzy on August 24, 2018, 05:48:20 PM
Why would she lie about giving a substantial donation to the Madeleine Fund?  I think the answer’s obvious.  It gives her (in her view) a legitimate grievance, as a donor to the fund.  If she hadn’t donated to the fund she has less of a right to compain about it IMO.  It makes her look good too, doesn’t it?

Why did brenda at that time need to look good - why would she have too...and who for.

Her grievance was the mccs leaving there children alone etc etc

So already had a legitimate reason.

IMO you believe everything mccn says - so why not brenda leyland.

As she said she donated when she believed in them- you cant really prove otherwise VS
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2018, 05:55:32 PM
Why did brenda at that time need to look good - why would she have too...and who for.

Her grievance was the mccs leaving there children alone etc etc

So already had a legitimate reason.

IMO you believe everything mccn says - so why not brenda leyland.

As she said she donated when she believed in them- you cant really prove otherwise VS
She made the comment as part of a twitter discussion, no doubt to try and give herself the moral high ground.  I don’t know if she actually donated or not, that’s why I asked for evidence.  Why should I trust the comments of an (at the time anonymous) tweeter on the internet?  You’d really have to be a fool not to take most comments on there with a large pinch of salt IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 24, 2018, 05:57:04 PM
Just seen an item on Sky News about Venezuelan women who travel to Columbia to work as prostitutes.  Sky were very careful not to reveal their identities by partially hiding their faces.  It's a pity Sky News didn't afford BL the same consideration but then we all know that wouldn't have had the same impact.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 24, 2018, 06:07:04 PM
She made the comment as part of a twitter discussion, no doubt to try and give herself the moral high ground. I don’t know if she actually donated or not, that’s why I asked for evidence.  Why should I trust the comments of an (at the time anonymous) tweeter on the internet?  You’d really have to be a fool not to take most comments on there with a large pinch of salt IMO.

Is it important for you to know/ What will you do with information ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2018, 06:29:55 PM
I always found that an absurd lyric.

But the original book is entertaining as is M*A*S*H Goes to Maine.
The Painless Pole... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 06:38:50 PM
I'm surprised  no one has mentioned, that if the McCanns had not left three children alone to go out boozing... The Brenda would not have made the tweets and would still be alive.... So we know whose fault it really is
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2018, 06:56:35 PM
I'm surprised  no one has mentioned, that if the McCanns had not left three children alone to go out boozing... The Brenda would not have made the tweets and would still be alive.... So we know whose fault it really is

IMO it wasn’t the leaving of the children that has generated the most opposition, it has been the reputation management.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 07:00:13 PM
IMO it wasn’t the leaving of the children that has generated the most opposition, it has been the reputation management.
So the reputation management is more to be criticised than leaving the children
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2018, 07:08:32 PM
IMO it wasn’t the leaving of the children that has generated the most opposition, it has been the reputation management.

So if you are accused of serious criminal acts you think it's wrong to counter those allegations
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 24, 2018, 10:01:51 PM
I'm surprised  no one has mentioned, that if the McCanns had not left three children alone to go out boozing... The Brenda would not have made the tweets and would still be alive.... So we know whose fault it really is
It is great to see you do on rare occasions have a sense of humour.  You had me there.  I thought for a moment you've been turned!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2018, 07:24:20 PM
Did Brenda have the right to accuse the McCanns of being murderers (repeatedly) on social media?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 27, 2018, 07:40:51 PM
Did Brenda have the right to accuse the McCanns of being murderers (repeatedly) on social media?

Cite.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2018, 07:46:42 PM
Cite.
Here’s one as a taster, let me know how many more you require.
Tue Sep 23 15:52:38 " ooh I say " have you been in any Carry on Films, e.g. " Carry on #mccann s, murder at will
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 27, 2018, 10:34:52 PM
Did Brenda have the right to accuse the McCanns of being murderers (repeatedly) on social media?

She felt she had the right .
Surely no-one has the right to do so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 27, 2018, 10:35:23 PM
Here’s one as a taster, let me know how many more you require.
Tue Sep 23 15:52:38 " ooh I say " have you been in any Carry on Films, e.g. " Carry on #mccann s, murder at will

 8(8-))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 27, 2018, 10:59:00 PM
Here’s one as a taster, let me know how many more you require.
Tue Sep 23 15:52:38 " ooh I say " have you been in any Carry on Films, e.g. " Carry on #mccann s, murder at will
Reads more like fiction than fact.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
An interesting question in my opinion is why Sky chose to reveal this story. Was it to pressurise the police into acting against those in the dossier or did they know that the police had decided no crime had been committed?

Whatever the answer, they pursued a woman who hadn't broken the law.

When a man who fundraised for the Fund and who wrote a blog saying some pretty nasty things about others was convicted of viewing child porn Sky took no notice at all.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 28, 2018, 09:43:22 AM
An interesting question in my opinion is why Sky chose to reveal this story. Was it to pressurise the police into acting against those in the dossier or did they know that the police had decided no crime had been committed?

Whatever the answer, they pursued a woman who hadn't broken the law.

When a man who fundraised for the Fund and who wrote a blog saying some pretty nasty things about others was convicted of viewing child porn Sky took no notice at all.


When a sceptic was convicted of the dreadful neglect of her elderly parents Sky took no notice at all.
Possibly there are other sceptics and supporters with convictions which Sky has not publlicized.
Possibly Sky were not aware of these convictions.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2018, 10:16:12 AM
An interesting question in my opinion is why Sky chose to reveal this story. Was it to pressurise the police into acting against those in the dossier or did they know that the police had decided no crime had been committed?

Whatever the answer, they pursued a woman who hadn't broken the law.

When a man who fundraised for the Fund and who wrote a blog saying some pretty nasty things about others was convicted of viewing child porn Sky took no notice at all.

His conviction  had nothing to do with the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 28, 2018, 10:35:43 AM
His conviction  had nothing to do with the mccanns

Nor had the woman who was convicted of appalling neglect, her conviction was unrelated to the McCanns But her campaign against the McCanns was reprehensible.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2018, 10:45:47 AM
His conviction  had nothing to do with the mccanns

His online behaviour in support of the McCanns was as reprehensible as the behaviour of those collected in the dossier imo. If their 'trolling' was newsworthy then so was his.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2018, 10:54:59 AM
Nor had the woman who was convicted of appalling neglect, her conviction was unrelated to the McCanns But her campaign against the McCanns was reprehensible

Very little about her case online at all.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2018, 11:16:08 AM
His online behaviour in support of the McCanns was as reprehensible as the behaviour of those collected in the dossier imo. If their 'trolling' was newsworthy then so was his.

Then if you feel that way you need to compile a dossier and take it to the police
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2018, 11:28:30 AM
Then if you feel that way you need to compile a dossier and take it to the police

As we know, the police don't see bad behaviour online as criminal behaviour. I'm not interested in compiling dossiers on anyone and those who were/are were unable to understand the difference.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2018, 11:38:09 AM
As we know, the police don't see bad behaviour online as criminal behaviour. I'm not interested in compiling dossiers on anyone and those who were/are were unable to understand the difference.

I respect the right of anyone to report a suspected crime... That's the difference  between us
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2018, 12:39:13 PM
I respect the right of anyone to report a suspected crime... That's the difference  between us

I think nobody would argue with you on the first bit.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2018, 12:41:01 PM
I think nobody would argue with you on the first bit.

And if the police don't take action I respect peoples right to go to the press
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 28, 2018, 12:45:11 PM
I think nobody would argue with you on the first bit.

Though I think most would leave it at that and let the police follow through.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2018, 02:48:11 PM
And if the police don't take action I respect peoples right to go to the press

Successfully too in this case. "This person has committed no crime, but we and others disapprove of them" is what Sky chose to broadcast. It wasn't news, it was opinion broadcast on a news channel.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2018, 02:52:44 PM
Though I think most would leave it at that and let the police follow through.

I wouldnt
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 28, 2018, 02:57:57 PM
Successfully too in this case. "This person has committed no crime, but we and others disapprove of them" is what Sky chose to broadcast. It wasn't news, it was opinion broadcast on a news channel.


Opinions are broadcast each and every day on news channels.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2018, 03:01:47 PM

Opinions are broadcast each and every day on news channels.

Unlike the majority of 'victims' of the media ... on this occasion the opportunity to have the right of reply aired on the rolling news was offered and was declined.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 28, 2018, 04:07:17 PM
Unlike the majority of 'victims' of the media ... on this occasion the opportunity to have the right of reply aired on the rolling news was offered and was declined.

Brietta would you agree to be interviewed without warning on national news, regardless of the topic?   


He waited for over 3 hours outside her house apparently.   I imagine some of her neighbours would have spotted him then he collars her saying apparently.

No, WE CAUGHT YOU!    Can we talk to you about your Twitter… handle, and your attacks on the McCanns?

IMO the Sky expose of Brenda was tied into the Summers and Swan book launch. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 28, 2018, 04:11:33 PM
Brietta would you agree to be interviewed without warning on national news, regardless of the topic?   


He waited for over 3 hours outside her house apparently.   I imagine some of her neighbours would have spotted him then he collars her saying apparently.

No, WE CAUGHT YOU!    Can we talk to you about your Twitter… handle, and your attacks on the McCanns?

IMO the Sky expose of Brenda was tied into the Summers and Swan book launch. 

That's a very serious accusation !
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 28, 2018, 04:16:23 PM
That's a very serious accusation !

I don't mean that Summers & Swann wanted to ruin anyone's life just that IMO it is one hell of a coincidence that Summers and Swann were interviewed on the same programme by Brunt, that Brenda Leyland was confronted by Brunt in the street where she lived. 

They had copies of the dossier and so did Martin Brunt. Where did they get their copy from then?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 28, 2018, 04:18:32 PM
I don't mean that Summers & Swann wanted to ruin anyone's life just that IMO it is one hell of a coincidence that Summers and Swann were interviewed on the same programme by Brunt, that Brenda Leyland was confronted by Brunt in the street where she lived. 

They had copies of the dossier and so did Martin Brunt. Where did they get their copy from then?

More accusations.
Have you cites for these accusations?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2018, 05:57:29 PM
Though I think most would leave it at that and let the police follow through.
Your faith in the ability of the police to always do the right thing is quite charming.   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 28, 2018, 06:21:24 PM
Your faith in the ability of the police to always do the right thing is quite charming.   

Does that extend to OG ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
An example of when going to the media with a dossier of abuse is the only way to get the police to act:

re: the whistleblower Jayne Senior who exposed the child sex grooming scandal in Rotherham.

“Frustrated by the fact the council rarely took any action, she bravely made contact with a journalist from The Times and handed over 200 confidential documents which contained evidence that Rotherham’s police and social services had been aware of the sexual abuse happening but had done nothing to prevent it.

She was awarded Women of the Year Outstanding Achievement Award in 2015 for her courage in blowing the whistle on the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal and helping the victims get the justice they deserved”.

I suppose she should have just piped down and wait for the police to get theri arses in gear, eh?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2018, 11:53:02 PM
Does that extend to OG ?
I don’t know, you’ll have to ask her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2018, 07:29:36 AM
An example of when going to the media with a dossier of abuse is the only way to get the police to act:

re: the whistleblower Jayne Senior who exposed the child sex grooming scandal in Rotherham.

“Frustrated by the fact the council rarely took any action, she bravely made contact with a journalist from The Times and handed over 200 confidential documents which contained evidence that Rotherham’s police and social services had been aware of the sexual abuse happening but had done nothing to prevent it.

She was awarded Women of the Year Outstanding Achievement Award in 2015 for her courage in blowing the whistle on the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal and helping the victims get the justice they deserved”.

I suppose she should have just piped down and wait for the police to get theri arses in gear, eh?

So you equate someone saying something nasty on the internet to child sex abuse?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 08:16:59 AM
So you equate someone saying something nasty on the internet to child sex abuse?
Is that what I said, or are you putting words into my mouth again? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 08:19:48 AM
So you equate someone saying something nasty on the internet to child sex abuse?

Strawman
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 08:27:30 AM
So you equate someone saying something nasty on the internet to child sex abuse?
The view expressed on this forum by most Brenda supporters is that it is morally reprehensible to compile a dossier of perceived wrong doings and, if the police seem to be dragging their feet or fail to act on something  perceived to be criminal, to then send the dossier to the media.  Is this your view too?  The perceived criminal activity is immaterial, it is the principle I am asking about.  Of course once the dossier is with the media outlet it is then up to them what they do with it and completely out of the dossier compilers’ hands.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 08:33:01 AM
An example of when going to the media with a dossier of abuse is the only way to get the police to act:

re: the whistleblower Jayne Senior who exposed the child sex grooming scandal in Rotherham.

“Frustrated by the fact the council rarely took any action, she bravely made contact with a journalist from The Times and handed over 200 confidential documents which contained evidence that Rotherham’s police and social services had been aware of the sexual abuse happening but had done nothing to prevent it.

She was awarded Women of the Year Outstanding Achievement Award in 2015 for her courage in blowing the whistle on the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal and helping the victims get the justice they deserved”.

I suppose she should have just piped down and wait for the police to get theri arses in gear, eh?

This woman exposed crimes. The dossier compilers and Sky exposed things which were not crimes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 08:43:50 AM
This woman exposed crimes. The dossier compilers and Sky exposed things which were not crimes.
If the woman (Jayne Senior to give her a name) exposed crimes then why did the police who knew all about them do nothing at all until the Times picked up the story?  In any case you are missing the point completely, but never mind.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 08:45:07 AM
The view expressed on this forum by most Brenda supporters is that it is morally reprehensible to compile a dossier of perceived wrong doings and, if the police seem to be dragging their feet or fail to act on something  perceived to be criminal, to then send the dossier to the media.  Is this your view too?  The perceived criminal activity is immaterial, it is the principle I am asking about.  Of course once the dossier is with the media outlet it is then up to them what they do with it and completely out of the dossier compilers’ hands.

The dossier compilers remind me of Mary Whitehouse.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 08:45:57 AM
The dossier compilers remind me of Mary Whitehouse.
Is that really the best you can do? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 08:57:50 AM
This woman exposed crimes. The dossier compilers and Sky exposed things which were not crimes.

Do you feel there is anything wrong in the hate expressed by some on social media towards Madeleine's family?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 08:59:49 AM
Let's get this clear... Do the, sceptics think that members if the public have no right to go to the press if they feel something needs to be investigated and the police won't help
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 09:15:25 AM
The dossier compilers remind me of Mary Whitehouse.
Mary Whitehouse was a person guided by her strong moral beliefs and religious principles.  Do you believe she was a malign influence on British society?  The dossier compilers seem to be considered malign by some on here, were they in your view?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 09:27:41 AM
Let's get this clear... Do the, sceptics think that members if the public have no right to go to the press if they feel something needs to be investigated and the police won't help
Good question.  To which I would add - did Brenda have the right to publicly accuse the McCanns of being murderers on social media?  Didn’t really get an answer to this question before...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 09:36:02 AM
Do you feel there is anything wrong in the hate expressed by some on social media towards Madeleine's family?

What does 'expressing hate' mean?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 09:37:46 AM
What does 'expressing hate' mean?

Brenda talks about her hatred for the McCann's... That's, expressing hate
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2018, 09:39:36 AM
Mary Whitehouse was a person guided by her strong moral beliefs and religious principles.  Do you believe she was a malign influence on British society?  The dossier compilers seem to be considered malign by some on here, were they in your view?

I think many treated her as an anachronistic joke.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 10:00:17 AM
I think many treated her as an anachronistic joke.
You don’t say!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 10:02:39 AM
Mary Whitehouse was a person guided by her strong moral beliefs and religious principles.  Do you believe she was a malign influence on British society?  The dossier compilers seem to be considered malign by some on here, were they in your view?

Mary Whitehouse and the dossier compiler's both disapproved of certain things. Not only did they disapprove they wanted everyone else to comply with their opinions. They had every right to have opinions, but no right to insist that there opinions should dominate.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 10:06:17 AM
Mary Whitehouse and the dossier compiler's both disapproved of certain things. Not only did they disapprove they wanted everyone else to comply with their opinions. They had every right to have opinions, but no right to insist that there opinions should dominate.
Can you provideva link to the dossier compilers insistence that their opinions should dominate?  Was Whitehouse wrong to insist that “kiddie porn” was wrong?  Was Jayne Senior wrong to go to the Times when she thought it wrong that Asian gangs were grooming underage girls and the police turned a blind eye? Rhetorical, my questions are far too difficult  to give an honest answer to, I know.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 10:11:12 AM
I think many treated her as an anachronistic joke.

She certainly didn't share the mood of the 1960's.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 10:12:48 AM
She certainly didn't share the mood of the 1960's.
Was she a bad person?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 10:35:21 AM
Can you provideva link to the dossier compilers insistence that their opinions should dominate?  Was Whitehouse wrong to insist that “kiddie porn” was wrong?  Was Jayne Senior wrong to go to the Times when she thought it wrong that Asian gangs were grooming underage girls and the police turned a blind eye? Rhetorical, my questions are far too difficult  to give an honest answer to, I know.

Jayne Senior isn't the same because she exposed actual crimes.
Mary Whitehouse wanted censorship of the media and the BBC.
The dossier compilers wanted people to be prosecuted for what they thought were crimes;

Brunt said those who compiled the dossier have reacted with "absolute dismay" at the decision not to prosecute.

"They say it is tantamount to giving the trolls, as they call them, carte blanche to carry on abusing the McCanns," he said.
https://news.sky.com/story/mccann-trolls-police-wont-take-action-10361261



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2018, 10:39:31 AM
Was she a bad person?

 Merely a subjective decision based on an individual's  outlook.

I would consider her misguided rather than bad.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 10:48:13 AM
Merely a subjective decision based on an individual's  outlook.

I would consider her misguided rather than bad.

I'm finding this deflection from  pertinent questions asked to a Mary Whitehouse discussion, very cleverly done.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 10:56:06 AM
I'm finding this deflection from  pertinent questions asked to a Mary Whitehouse discussion, very cleverly done.

Maybe such a high profile case will bring about a clarification  of the law... Brenda felt what she, was doing was perfectly acceptable.   It is if you accept victims of online abuse committing suicide... It isn't if you dont
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 10:56:40 AM
Was she a bad person?

What on earth has that got to do with it? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I will always oppose anyone who seeks to stop others saying, reading or watching something just because they disapprove of it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 10:58:44 AM
Jayne Senior isn't the same because she exposed actual crimes.
Mary Whitehouse wanted censorship of the media and the BBC.
The dossier compilers wanted people to be prosecuted for what they thought were crimes;

Brunt said those who compiled the dossier have reacted with "absolute dismay" at the decision not to prosecute.

"They say it is tantamount to giving the trolls, as they call them, carte blanche to carry on abusing the McCanns," he said.
https://news.sky.com/story/mccann-trolls-police-wont-take-action-10361261
Jayne Senior IS IMO the same because until she went to the Times, the police were not interested in investigating these crimes.  In other words, they weren't crimes as far as the police were concerned UNTIL the media shone a light on their complacency about child sex grooming.  As far as she or the Times knew at the time of blowing the whistle, the police could still have come back with a decision not to prosecute.  The only difference is that in the case of the malign tweets being made about the McCanns and accusing them, of among other things, being murderers, the police decided not to go ahead with any prosecutions.   The dossier compilers have every right to be dismayed at what they perceived to be police complacency, that doesn't mean they insisted on anything. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 10:59:36 AM
What on earth has that got to do with it? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I will always oppose anyone who seeks to stop others saying, reading or watching something just because they disapprove of it.
Does that include looking at child pornography, which thanks in large part to Mary Whitehouse is now an illegal activity?  Did Mary Whitehouse pave the road to hell in your view?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
What on earth has that got to do with it? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I will always oppose anyone who seeks to stop others saying, reading or watching something just because they disapprove of it.
The law does exactly that... But sets limits. So you oppose the law
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 11:03:06 AM
What on earth has that got to do with it? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I will always oppose anyone who seeks to stop others saying, reading or watching something just because they disapprove of it.

And I will always, support an individuals right to appeal to the press to expose something they see, as, an injustice
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:05:27 AM
And I will always, support an individuals right to appeal to the press to expose something they see, as, an injustice
#metoo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2018, 11:05:43 AM
I'm finding this deflection from  pertinent questions asked to a Mary Whitehouse discussion, very cleverly done.

I'm only replying to VS's  question about her - I didn't bring her up  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 11:25:28 AM
Maybe such a high profile case will bring about a clarification  of the law... Brenda felt what she, was doing was perfectly acceptable.   It is if you accept victims of online abuse committing suicide... It isn't if you dont

Perhaps it will, and I have no objection to people lobbying for such changes. Naming, shaming and door-stepping people who have committed no offence I do object to because two wrongs don't make a right.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 11:35:18 AM
Perhaps it will, and I have no objection to people lobbying for such changes. Naming, shaming and door-stepping people who have committed no offence I do object to because two wrongs don't make a right.

Then complain to sky... The dossier compliers didn't publicly identify brenda... Sky did
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 11:46:01 AM
Perhaps it will, and I have no objection to people lobbying for such changes. Naming, shaming and door-stepping people who have committed no offence I do object to because two wrongs don't make a right.

Bullying on social media is in the news, today Re young girls, self harming... Bullying is wrong...the on-line bullies need to be stopped
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:46:52 AM
Perhaps it will, and I have no objection to people lobbying for such changes. Naming, shaming and door-stepping people who have committed no offence I do object to because two wrongs don't make a right.
This is in direct contradiction to your earlier statement that
Mary Whitehouse and the dossier compiler's both disapproved of certain things. Not only did they disapprove they wanted everyone else to comply with their opinions. They had every right to have opinions, but no right to insist that there opinions should dominate.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2018, 11:56:55 AM
Perhaps it will, and I have no objection to people lobbying for such changes. Naming, shaming and door-stepping people who have committed no offence I do object to because two wrongs don't make a right.

I think you are missing the point just a little here.

Brenda Leyland was one of a number of individuals who had taken it upon themselves to troll and mount a hate campaign directed towards the family of a missing child.

If you think such people don't deserve to have their activities properly investigated when reported to the police that is a matter entirely for you.

But just as the dossier compilers had the right to do that ... everyone mentioned in that document had the right to await the outcome of the police investigation and the right to due process should that have been necessary.

Brenda Leyland had the right to due process, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous, she also had the opportunity of right to reply ... not on the doorstep (the confrontation was not broadcast live) but once she had time to gather her thoughts together ... she could also have sued Sky news much as Sir Cliff did with the BBC.

She chose another route of suicide.
One wonders if any of the targets of those named in the dossier had taken that route ... and I include their vulnerable adolescents without apology in that ... if it would have roused the same passion on this thread that we see about one of the contributors to their abuse?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 12:02:27 PM
Bullying on social media is in the news, today Re young girls, self harming... Bullying is wrong...the on-line bullies need to be stopped
She also mercilessly bullied a young woman she thought was Amy Tierney.  There’s no question about it, Brenda WAS an online bully, though some people refuse to accept it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 12:07:59 PM
From what you are, saying you don't object to any sort of bullying or harassment... Wait till it's, directed towards you or your family you will soon change your mind
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 12:16:37 PM
Bullying on social media is in the news, today Re young girls, self harming... Bullying is wrong...the on-line bullies need to be stopped

Bullying is in the news for sure. A 9 year old boy in Colorado committed suicide after school mates bullied him in person after he came out as gay. Bullying happens all over the place; at school, at work, in the home, and online. It hurts if you let it. The hardest job I had as a parent was helping my children to learn how to deal with this nasty and cowardly behaviour. Whether it can be stopped in all it's forms I don't know; it's been around for a very long time.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 12:23:19 PM
Bullying is in the news for sure. A 9 year old boy in Colorado committed suicide after school mates bullied him in person after he came out as gay. Bullying happens all over the place; at school, at work, in the home, and online. It hurts if you let it. The hardest job I had as a parent was helping my children to learn how to deal with this nasty and cowardly behaviour. Whether it can be stopped in all it's forms I don't know; it's been around for a very long time.

It has but social media hasn't.... Social media, gives the bullies a platform to bully 24 hrs, a day.... Brenda could say what she wanted to her friends... But when you publish hatred nationaly there is a difference
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2018, 12:24:54 PM
Bullying is in the news for sure. A 9 year old boy in Colorado committed suicide after school mates bullied him in person after he came out as gay. Bullying happens all over the place; at school, at work, in the home, and online. It hurts if you let it. The hardest job I had as a parent was helping my children to learn how to deal with this nasty and cowardly behaviour. Whether it can be stopped in all it's forms I don't know; it's been around for a very long time.


Jeez, what sort of  a world to live in.  Aged 9 I didn't even know what homosexuality was.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 12:27:29 PM
Bullying is in the news for sure. A 9 year old boy in Colorado committed suicide after school mates bullied him in person after he came out as gay. Bullying happens all over the place; at school, at work, in the home, and online. It hurts if you let it. The hardest job I had as a parent was helping my children to learn how to deal with this nasty and cowardly behaviour. Whether it can be stopped in all it's forms I don't know; it's been around for a very long time.

But bullying shouldn't happen .
Just because it has gone on in the past is no excuse for not trying to stop it nowadays.
Schools have a duty of care to prevent bullying and hopefully workplaces should have the same concern.
Fortunately your children had a concerned parent to help them deal with the bullying.
Not all children are so fortunate.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 12:31:02 PM
It has but social media hasn't.... Social media, gives the bullies a platform to bully 24 hrs, a day.... Brenda could say what she wanted to her friends... But when you publish hatred nationaly there is a difference

Social media is now the home for bullies.
A headteacher I know has to deal with the carry over to school on a Monday from all the social media nastiness of the weekend.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 01:09:31 PM
Bullying's a matter of opinion, not fact. I believe in free speech some of which may be seen as bullying by some but not by others.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2018, 01:16:37 PM
Bullying on social media is in the news, today Re young girls, self harming... Bullying is wrong... Brenda tried to bully the McCann's....the on-line bullies need to be stopped

If they are breaking the law report them to the appropriate authorities if there is sufficient evidence.
If they are not and there isn't there is always the "off" button.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 01:24:25 PM

Bullying's a matter of opinion, not fact. I believe in free speech some of which may be seen as bullying by some but not by others.

No doubt the bullies see it as their right of free speech.The others who see it as bullying are no doubt their victims.

In school bullies usually worked as part of a group, usually targeted one or two individuals by insulting, accusing and threatening.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 01:25:19 PM
If they are breaking the law report them to the appropriate authorities if there is sufficient evidence.
If they are not and there isn't there is always the "off" button.

And there is, always going to the papers to highlight  the situation and get the law, changed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 01:27:04 PM

Bullying's a matter of opinion, not fact. I believe in free speech some of which may be seen as bullying by some but not by others.

So when it's, against  your children it's bullying... Against others, it's free-speech.... I think we expected that... Earlier you described jt as nasty cowardly  behaviour.... Now it's free speech
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 01:29:38 PM
If they are breaking the law report them to the appropriate authorities if there is sufficient evidence.
If they are not and there isn't there is always the "off" button.

Same goes for brenda and her supporters here... If what sky or the compliers, did is illegal report them...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 03:07:06 PM
There would be no Madeleine forums if a significant proportion of people hadn’t decided to be outraged about the McCanns and the decisions they made in the first place. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 29, 2018, 04:19:48 PM
There would be no Madeleine forums if a significant proportion of people hadn’t decided to be outraged about the McCanns and the decisions they made in the first place. 

And equally there wouldn't be if a handful of self appointed defenders hadn't emerged.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 04:29:46 PM
And equally there wouldn't be if a handful of self appointed defenders hadn't emerged.


Which came first?
The attack or the defence?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 04:40:35 PM
And equally there wouldn't be if a handful of self appointed defenders hadn't emerged.
Oh I think there would...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 04:51:35 PM

Bullying's a matter of opinion, not fact. I believe in free speech some of which may be seen as bullying by some but not by others.
"I find it reprehensible for anyone to be abusive online. It ranges from calling others stupid to really bad abuse" - G-Unit.  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6268.msg236214#msg236214
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 04:57:48 PM
"I find it reprehensible for anyone to be abusive online. It ranges from calling others stupid to really bad abuse" - G-Unit.  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6268.msg236214#msg236214

I think It's one thing calling an anonymous blogger stupid but that isn't the same as directing abuse at a real person... Martin Brunt can doorstep me any day... I stand by everthing I have said... That doesn't seem to be the same for the sceptics.... I think brenda deserved to be named and shamed and I'd like more, anonymous bloggers, getting the same treatment...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 05:04:56 PM
By G-Unit's own definition Brenda behaved in a reprehensible fashion, though she would never come straight out and say so.  Brenda went beyond calling someone stupid.  She repeatedly accused the McCanns of being murderers, and bullied a young woman quite mercilessly (the fact that she was mistaken in her target is neither here nor there, the intent to hurt and bully is the issue here).  In fact I haven't heard a single sceptic describe Brenda's actions as in any way reprehensible, all we ever here is what a lovely lady she was.  Well I'm sorry but I don't find her actions particularly lovely.   I'm sure she was a delight in real life, but why did she have to be so vile online?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2018, 05:21:51 PM
And there is, always going to the papers to highlight  the situation and get the law, changed

Laws are changed by parliament.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
There would be no Madeleine forums if a significant proportion of people hadn’t decided to be outraged about the McCanns and the decisions they made in the first place.  You are a part of that, so please don’t pretend you ocupy any sort of higher ground.

Would you care to put a number against that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 05:42:48 PM
Would you care to put a number against that?
No.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 06:08:10 PM
Laws are changed by parliament.
Ultimately, yes, but some laws come about owing initially to the activism of members of the public. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 06:13:28 PM
There would be no Madeleine forums if a significant proportion of people hadn’t decided to be outraged about the McCanns and the decisions they made in the first place.  You are a part of that, so please don’t pretend you ocupy any sort of higher ground.

Is that the reason people founded and joined forums? Outrage? News to me. I think that's just your opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 29, 2018, 06:19:29 PM

Tis time someone changed The Law on On Line Bullying.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 06:22:08 PM
Is that the reason people founded and joined forums? Outrage? News to me. I think that's just your opinion.
Think what you like.  I first joined a forum about the case because I was gobsmacked by the callous hatred being spewed towards the family of a missing child, long before they were considered suspects by most of these people spewing their bile.  They were on the whole full of righteous fury about the McCanns' child "neglect".  I thought their vile comments were OTT, and there was hardly anyone else voicing an alternative opinion.  Yes, I was outraged by their outrage, but theirs was first, believe me!  I never would have got involved in Madeleine forums in the first place if I hadn't been so shocked by the vitriol and lack of IMO common decency and restraint on display. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 06:50:43 PM
Think what you like.  I first joined a forum about the case because I was gobsmacked by the callous hatred being spewed towards the family of a missing child, long before they were considered suspects by most of these people spewing their bile.  They were on the whole full of righteous fury about the McCanns' child "neglect".  I thought their vile comments were OTT, and there was hardly anyone else voicing an alternative opinion.  Yes, I was outraged by their outrage, but theirs was first, believe me!  I never would have got involved in Madeleine forums in the first place if I hadn't been so shocked by the vitriol and lack of IMO common decency and restraint on display.


Much the same as myself.
I was reading Sky news and there was another headline story about Madeleine's disappearance.
I noticed the comments section and began to read.
The comments were appalling.
The ones about Gerry's brother and sister especially so.
I made a post commenting about the vitriol.
Again the attack and abuse came first.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 29, 2018, 07:44:49 PM
By G-Unit's own definition Brenda behaved in a reprehensible fashion, though she would never come straight out and say so.  Brenda went beyond calling someone stupid.  She repeatedly accused the McCanns of being murderers, and bullied a young woman quite mercilessly (the fact that she was mistaken in her target is neither here nor there, the intent to hurt and bully is the issue here).  In fact I haven't heard a single sceptic describe Brenda's actions as in any way reprehensible, all we ever here is what a lovely lady she was.  Well I'm sorry but I don't find her actions particularly lovely.   I'm sure she was a delight in real life, but why did she have to be so vile online?

I think you have missed a few times I have posted about Brenda. I have never condoned what she tweeted, or agreed with what she said. It does you no favours to class all skeptics as having one voice. we don't. You insist in trying to make sceptic members of this forum as bad people,nasty trolls etc. but this has yet to be evidenced.

The fact I do not agree with Brenda Layland's tweets does not give me the right to silence her. Brenda committed no crime in the eyes of the law. The dossier complilers achieved NOTHING...SKY achieved nothing... Brenda Died and MBM is missing (perhaps dead). All thanks to the behaviour of others...says a lot to me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 07:58:43 PM
I think you have missed a few times I have posted about Brenda. I have never condoned what she tweeted, or agreed with what she said. It does you no favours to class all skeptics as having one voice. we don't. You insist in trying to make sceptic members of this forum as bad people,nasty trolls etc. but this has yet to be evidenced.

The fact I do not agree with Brenda Layland's tweets does not give me the right to silence her. Brenda committed no crime in the eyes of the law. The dossier complilers achieved NOTHING...SKY achieved nothing... Brenda Died and MBM is missing (perhaps dead). All thanks to the behaviour of others...says a lot to me.

I am certainly not suggesting that any sceptic here has ever posted the vitriol which was the cause of my and VS involvement in Madeleine discussions but rather we were explaining which came first.
The attacks on the McCann family or those who who sought to counteract those attacks.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 08:01:40 PM
It is wrong to blame others.
The families of suicide victims have so much guilt blaming themselves.
Ultimately someone decides to take their own life and they and they alone make that choice.
The family are the victims.
They are the ones left behind to carry that pain forever.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 08:12:52 PM
Ultimately, yes, but some laws come about owing initially to the activism of members of the public.

The poll tax riots being a case in point. Laws get made or changed when there's sufficient interest by the general population. I don't see a grass roots interest in protecting the McCanns from online questions and criticisms. 




Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 08:19:44 PM
The poll tax riots being a case in point. Laws get made or changed when there's sufficient interest by the general population. I don't see a grass roots interest in protecting the McCanns from online questions and criticisms.

On-line questioning and criticism is quite different from online abuse and threats..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2018, 08:20:08 PM
The poll tax riots being a case in point. Laws get made or changed when there's sufficient interest by the general population. I don't see a grass roots interest in protecting the McCanns from online questions and criticisms.
Online questions and criticism is fine...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 29, 2018, 08:29:22 PM
It is wrong to blame others.
The families of suicide victims have so much guilt blaming themselves.
Ultimately someone decides to take their own life and they and they alone make that choice.
The family are the victims.
They are the ones left behind to carry that pain forever.

Is this your opinion as a qualified  clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist or a retired school teacher?


In bold is evidence you know  nothing about Mental Health issues, just guessing is fun though.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 08:30:17 PM
Think what you like.  I first joined a forum about the case because I was gobsmacked by the callous hatred being spewed towards the family of a missing child, long before they were considered suspects by most of these people spewing their bile.  They were on the whole full of righteous fury about the McCanns' child "neglect".  I thought their vile comments were OTT, and there was hardly anyone else voicing an alternative opinion.  Yes, I was outraged by their outrage, but theirs was first, believe me!  I never would have got involved in Madeleine forums in the first place if I hadn't been so shocked by the vitriol and lack of IMO common decency and restraint on display.

Have you seen posts about the case which dispassionately examine and discuss the evidence? No 'callous hatred' being 'spewed', no 'bile', no 'righteous fury', no 'vile comments', no 'vitriol'? I have. Perhaps you were reading the wrong sites?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 29, 2018, 08:40:26 PM
I am certainly not suggesting that any sceptic here has ever posted the vitriol which was the cause of my and VS involvement in Madeleine discussions but rather we were explaining which came first.
The attacks on the McCann family or those who who sought to counteract those attacks.

I have read the posts.  I understand what the message is. The outrage you both feel about 'McCann bashers, H*ters, evil trolls, etc posting bile. what that has to do with this forum I have absolutely no idea.

I have never been to a McCann forum. I have no reason to frequent such a described 'toxic enviroment'. If it is so bad I would wonder why go there then come here to bemoan about 'skeptics' if not to try and lump us all as one massive gang of bullies.

This forum is about finding out what happened to MBM by discussion. Not the same as trying to 'solve the case'  Any talk about the situation leading up to and the aftermath of MBM's claimed disappearance by her parents, is seen by you and others as mccann bashing etc.   This is the case as you always attack the poster
(many of me ) and not the post.

I take confort from that as it proves that the supporters have no real arguement to offer, just to be 'offended' on behalf of people they don't even know.


So what came first?

My opinion : On a yahoo chatsite, with many threads on different subjects, some  posters were questioning the behaviour of the McCanns on the week MBM disappeared. there were no accusations or nastyness, however, after a while the chat turned bad by 'new people' coming in hard selling the 'abduction' and began to name call anyone who challenged the theory... I left long before the Amaral hatred came about.

The McCanns created their own monster.

Forum parents discussed  nightmares for many children who thought they would be abducted from their bed via a window as was 'that little girl'.
.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
Is this your opinion as a qualified  clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist or a retired school teacher?


In bold is evidence you know  nothing about Mental Health issues, just guessing is fun though.


You always take such an exaggerated and quite personal and rather a deprecating tone to any of my posts.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 08:49:47 PM
I have read the posts.  I understand what the message is. The outrage you both feel about 'McCann bashers, H*ters, evil trolls, etc posting bile. what that has to do with this forum I have absolutely no idea.

I have never been to a McCann forum. I have no reason to frequent such a described 'toxic enviroment'. If it is so bad I would wonder why go there then come here to bemoan about 'skeptics' if not to try and lump us all as one massive gang of bullies.

This forum is about finding out what happened to MBM by discussion. Not the same as trying to 'solve the case'  Any talk about the situation leading up to and the aftermath of MBM's claimed disappearance by her parents, is seen by you and others as mccann bashing etc.   This is the case as you always attack the poster
(many of me ) and not the post.

I take confort from that as it proves that the supporters have no real arguement to offer, just to be 'offended' on behalf of people they don't even know.


So what came first?

My opinion : On a yahoo chatsite, with many threads on different subjects, some  posters were questioning the behaviour of the McCanns on the week MBM disappeared. there were no accusations or nastyness, however, after a while the chat turned bad by 'new people' coming in hard selling the 'abduction' and began to name call anyone who challenged the theory... I left long before the Amaral hatred came about.

The McCanns created their own monster.

Forum parents discussed  nightmares for many children who thought they would be abducted from their bed via a window as was 'that little girl'.
.


This thread is about Brenda who among many another did post threats and hatred against Madeleine's parents.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 09:44:34 PM
Anything that some people don't approve of SHOULD BE STOPPED! Any means are acceptable so long as the end is achieved.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 09:54:11 PM
Anything that some people don't approve of SHOULD BE STOPPED! Any means are acceptable so long as the end is achieved.

Rather an exaggerated statement in my opinion.
Just hate and bullying on the internet should be stopped.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 10:06:15 PM
Rather an exaggerated statement in my opinion.
Just hate and bullying on the internet should be stopped.


It sounds simple, but it isn't. The first step is to agree on a definition of 'hate' and 'bullying'.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 10:16:45 PM

It sounds simple, but it isn't. The first step is to agree on a definition of 'hate' and 'bullying'.

What constitutes hate speech and bullying seems to have been accepted in school, workplaces and in the publc arena.
Shouldn't be too difficult to carry this over into the internet.

Do you consider any of the internet speculation about the McCann family to be  outwith the bounds of decency?
How far is free speech allowed?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2018, 10:17:33 PM
Anything that some people don't approve of SHOULD BE STOPPED! Any means are acceptable so long as the end is achieved.

Kris Kristofferson:
'Cause everybody's gotta have somebody to look down on
Who they can feel better than at any time they please
Someone doin' somethin' dirty decent folks can frown on


I believe Terry Pratchett had something with this:
"It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 29, 2018, 10:18:36 PM
A reminder to keep posts amiable and constructive please guys. TY
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2018, 10:21:05 PM
What constitutes hate speech and bullying seems to have been accepted in school, workplaces and in the publc arena.
Shouldn't be too difficult to carry this over into the internet.

Do you consider any of the internet speculation about the McCann family to be  outwith the bounds of decency?
How far is free speech allowed?

That would depend alot on where one lived.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 10:26:15 PM
That would depend alot on where one lived.

I wasn't thinking of North Korea.
Obviously the discussion is related to what happens in this country.
I thought that was understood.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 29, 2018, 10:28:04 PM

It sounds simple, but it isn't. The first step is to agree on a definition of 'hate' and 'bullying'.

Well in some quarters if someone  is offended by what you say or do it is deemed as bullying.The offence may be real or not it is how they 'feel'.  Now as we undestand it - if we believe the McCanns, they do not 'do' social media. therefor can't possibly be offended. So no harm done.

  'Curtain tweekers' were disliked in post WW2  Russia and Germany. AND now we know why!



love this:Amaral,and the McCanns and Rupert Murdoch ,sky news bbc  all media ... making money from a disappeared child, and clearly without a clue.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2018, 10:33:46 PM
1) I wasn't thinking of North Korea.
Obviously the discussion is related to what happens in this country.
2)I thought that was understood.

1) Neither was I.
2) It was/is.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 10:37:24 PM
Well in some quarters if someone  is offended by what you say or do it is deemed as bullying.The offence may be real or not it is how they 'feel'.  Now as we undestand it - if we believe the McCanns, they do not 'do' social media. therefor can't possibly be offended. So no harm done.

  'Curtain tweekers' were disliked in post WW2  Russia and Germany. AND now we know why!



love this:Amaral,and the McCanns and Rupert Murdoch ,sky news bbc  all media ... making money from a disappeared child, and clearly without a clue.



I'm glad you liked it
It's so true.
I copied it from Stephen who had it at the end of all his posts.
Obviously not exactly the same but my little twist of his quote.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 10:38:00 PM
1) Neither was I.
2) It was/is.

Good.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:02:26 PM
The poll tax riots being a case in point. Laws get made or changed when there's sufficient interest by the general population. I don't see a grass roots interest in protecting the McCanns from online questions and criticisms.
There is a grass roots interest in doing more to prevent internet bullying and abuse though and hold social media platforms to account, don’t you think? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:03:31 PM
Have you seen posts about the case which dispassionately examine and discuss the evidence? No 'callous hatred' being 'spewed', no 'bile', no 'righteous fury', no 'vile comments', no 'vitriol'? I have. Perhaps you were reading the wrong sites?
Yes I have seen posts like that.  What is your point?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:06:40 PM

It sounds simple, but it isn't. The first step is to agree on a definition of 'hate' and 'bullying'.
OK, is it bullying to call someone fat and ugly, and to out them on social media?  Is it acceptable to imply publicly that someone is guilty of murder?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:18:34 PM
I have read the posts.  I understand what the message is. The outrage you both feel about 'McCann bashers, H*ters, evil trolls, etc posting bile. what that has to do with this forum I have absolutely no idea.

I have never been to a McCann forum. I have no reason to frequent such a described 'toxic enviroment'. If it is so bad I would wonder why go there then come here to bemoan about 'skeptics' if not to try and lump us all as one massive gang of bullies.

This forum is about finding out what happened to MBM by discussion. Not the same as trying to 'solve the case'  Any talk about the situation leading up to and the aftermath of MBM's claimed disappearance by her parents, is seen by you and others as mccann bashing etc.   This is the case as you always attack the poster
(many of me ) and not the post.

I take confort from that as it proves that the supporters have no real arguement to offer, just to be 'offended' on behalf of people they don't even know.


So what came first?

My opinion : On a yahoo chatsite, with many threads on different subjects, some  posters were questioning the behaviour of the McCanns on the week MBM disappeared. there were no accusations or nastyness, however, after a while the chat turned bad by 'new people' coming in hard selling the 'abduction' and began to name call anyone who challenged the theory... I left long before the Amaral hatred came about.

The McCanns created their own monster.

Forum parents discussed  nightmares for many children who thought they would be abducted from their bed via a window as was 'that little girl'.
.
If this forum is about finding out what happened to Madeleine McCann they why have we spent 57 pages discussing the reprehensible activities of an OAP in Leicestershire?

As for the rest of your post, without evidence of this lovely little friendly chatroom that turned nasty when the bad ol’ supporters turned up I’m afraid I’m going to have to trat that with a large spoonful of salt, having witnessed a very similar high profile forum and the comments there shortly after Madeleine’s disappearance.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2018, 11:19:50 PM
What constitutes hate speech and bullying seems to have been accepted in school, workplaces and in the publc arena.
Shouldn't be too difficult to carry this over into the internet.

Do you consider any of the internet speculation about the McCann family to be  outwith the bounds of decency?
How far is free speech allowed?

Hate speech (as opposed to just 'hate') does have a legal definition and those practicing it can be prosecuted. No-one has been prosecuted for directing such speech at the McCanns.

There is no legal definition of bullying, it isn't a criminal offense.

'The bounds of decency' means nothing to me because I don''t know what you mean by it. We may disagree as to what is or isn't 'decent'.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:34:01 PM
Hate speech (as opposed to just 'hate') does have a legal definition and those practicing it can be prosecuted. No-one has been prosecuted for directing such speech at the McCanns.

There is no legal definition of bullying, it isn't a criminal offense.

'The bounds of decency' means nothing to me because I don''t know what you mean by it. We may disagree as to what is or isn't 'decent'.
The law

Some forms of bullying are illegal and should be reported to the police. These include:

violence or assault
theft
repeated harassment or intimidation, for example name calling, threats and abusive phone calls, emails or text messages
hate crimes

https://www.gov.uk/bullying-at-school
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 29, 2018, 11:34:17 PM
Hate speech (as opposed to just 'hate') does have a legal definition and those practicing it can be prosecuted. No-one has been prosecuted for directing such speech at the McCanns.

There is no legal definition of bullying, it isn't a criminal offense.

'The bounds of decency' means nothing to me because I don''t know what you mean by it. We may disagree as to what is or isn't 'decent'.


When you said your child was bullied I assume name calling was involved.
Perhaps the bully felt that whatever he/she said was within the bounds of decency.
It cannot be left for individuals to decide what is or is not decent if that decision impacts on another person.
There may be no legal definition of bullying but in schools, workplaces etc bullying has to be defined and dealt with.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 29, 2018, 11:35:08 PM
Bullying - a definition

There is no legal definition of bullying.

However, it’s usually defined as behaviour that is:

repeated
intended to hurt someone either physically or emotionally
often aimed at certain groups, for example because of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation
It takes many forms and can include:

physical assault
teasing
making threats
name calling
cyberbullying - bullying via mobile phone or online (for example email, social networks and instant messenger)
https://www.gov.uk/bullying-at-school/bullying-a-definition
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 06:41:56 AM
Online questions and criticism is fine...

I have read the last few pages and seen very little in the way of sympathy (this does not mean none) for Brenda. Yes she made some horrible posts about the McCanns but most of them were not, they were simply questioning what the couple did and from what I can see she responded to goading by supporters and gave back what they gave her.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 07:27:15 AM
I have read the last few pages and seen very little in the way of sympathy (this does not mean none) for Brenda. Yes she made some horrible posts about the McCanns but most of them were not, they were simply questioning what the couple did and from what I can see she responded to goading by supporters and gave back what they gave her.

Do you not find her bullying behaviour of a young woman reprehensible?  Did she have the right to repeatedly accuse the McCanns in your view? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 07:30:57 AM
Do you not find her bullying behaviour of a young woman reprehensible?  Did she have the right to repeatedly accuse the McCanns in your view?

No and no but did she deserve what happened to her thanks to the dossier compilers and the media. I don't believe she deserved any of it. Perhaps a knock  on the door by the police if she had broken the law (which she hadn't I believe) but not the media onslaught she got.

Can any decent person justify that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 08:23:53 AM
No and no but did she deserve what happened to her thanks to the dossier compilers and the media. I don't believe she deserved any of it. Perhaps a knock  on the door by the police if she had broken the law (which she hadn't I believe) but not the media onslaught she got.

Can any decent person justify that?
So if you saw someone behaving repeatedly reprehensibly, bullying  and accusing others repeatedly of being murderers you would do nothing?  Just let them get on with it?  Can any decent person justify that?

Listening to R4 about the twitter abuse of Sandy Hook parents right now, very interesting...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2018, 09:02:57 AM
Either the dossier compilers were doing a good thing, as claimed, in which case it shouldn’t be an issue to be associated with it, or they were doing a bad thing.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 09:12:42 AM
Either the dossier compilers were doing a good thing, as claimed, in which case it shouldn’t be an issue to be associated with it, or they were doing a bad thing.


I totally support them and would like to see more posters of offensive posts outed.
The risk of suicide relates to the victims of online bullying and abuse... Not the perpetrators
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 09:18:54 AM
I would love to see a definition of a 'decent' person. I see it as related to 'respectable'. In my opinion many people have been seen as decent and respectable..............until they were found out.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2018, 09:19:46 AM
What does it matter if an anonymous person on an Internet forum was part of an anonymous group producing an dossier that the anonymous person supported?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 30, 2018, 09:25:16 AM
I totally support them and would like to see more posters of offensive posts outed.
The risk of suicide relates to the victims of online bullying and abuse... Not the perpetrators


I don't believe the dossier compilers were wrong either.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2018, 09:27:21 AM
I don't believe the dossier compilers were wrong either.

Feel free, we are all anonymous on here. Interesting that someone supporting a group outing people complains about being outed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 30, 2018, 09:28:30 AM
I would love to see a definition of a 'decent' person. I see it as related to 'respectable'. In my opinion many people have been seen as decent and respectable..............until they were found out.

Well they obviously were not decent and respectable.
Just hypocrites.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 09:41:45 AM
Well they obviously were not decent and respectable.
Just hypocrites.

Quite. So how do we decide who's decent and respectable before they're found out?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 09:47:17 AM
NB ... ALL future Off Topic posts will be deleted ... Topic "Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2018, 09:57:13 AM
So you feel that the dossier compilers would be in danger if their identities were revealed?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 09:57:53 AM
So you feel that the dossier compilers would be in danger if their identities were revealed?

Quite possibly
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2018, 10:34:01 AM
All posts containing personal comments and/or goading will be removed as per previous edicts.

The dossier compilers were nothing more than a bunch of busybodies imo who got burned by their stupid actions.  The correct port of call for any online abuse is the social media platform involved and then the police. The press and media have no right to get involved where the police deem abuse to not be criminal. If the laws are too loose as someone already suggested then petition the government to tighten them up.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:51:05 AM
All posts containing personal comments and/or goading will be removed as per previous edicts.

The dossier compilers were nothing more than a bunch of busybodies imo who got burned by their stupid actions.  The correct port of call for any online abuse is the social media platform involved and then the police. The press and media have no right to get involved where the police deem abuse to not be criminal. If the laws are too loose as someone already suggested then petition the government to tighten them up.

the dossier compliers didn't get burned...no one knows who they are...they had every right to go to the press...that is not opinion..its fact
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 11:07:27 AM
All posts containing personal comments and/or goading will be removed as per previous edicts.

The dossier compilers were nothing more than a bunch of busybodies imo who got burned by their stupid actions.  The correct port of call for any online abuse is the social media platform involved and then the police. The press and media have no right to get involved where the police deem abuse to not be criminal. If the laws are too loose as someone already suggested then petition the government to tighten them up.

I agree. The internet has given everyone the opportunity to express their opinions. We all read opinions we disagree with or which we find offensive. That doesn't give us the right to take action against those who have offended us. Posting anonymously and offending others isn't illegal.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 11:11:06 AM
I agree. The internet has given everyone the opportunity to express their opinions. We all read opinions we disagree with or which we find offensive. That doesn't give us the right to take action against those who have offended us. Posting anonymously and offending others isn't illegal.

It does give us the right to take action against poeple who have offended us.......totally....as long as we act within the law
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 11:32:30 AM
the dossier compilers didn't get burned...no one knows who they are...they had every right to go to the press...that is not opinion..its fact

There is quite a bit of concern being shown in academic circles about misuse of the internet, if the number of studies being carried out is anything to go by.

With some of the offending organised groups taking pains to object specifically to at least one study featuring the abuse suffered by the McCann family.

If I am not mistaken ... haven't we seen that attitude of denial posted on this thread?   along the lines of ~ If we say it ain't so then it ain't!

As far as I am concerned ... that is an acknowledgement that cyberbullying ... in this instance of Madeleine's family is inherently wrong and using a woman suffering with her own demons as an icon to justify it is inherently wrong.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 11:40:29 AM
It does give us the right to take action against poeple who have offended us.......totally....as long as we act within the law

In the end it comes down to different opinions, doesn't it? Some of us think the dossier compilers were a 'bunch of busybodies' and others think they were justifiably concerned citizens doing all they could to clean up the internet Personally I admire those who have the courage to identify themselves and defend their opinions publicly. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 12:06:17 PM
In the end it comes down to different opinions, doesn't it? Some of us think the dossier compilers were a 'bunch of busybodies' and others think they were justifiably concerned citizens doing all they could to clean up the internet Personally I admire those who have the courage to identify themselves and defend their opinions publicly.
Then why do you post anonymously.... there is a very good reason why posters do not post with their real name....Brenda certainly didnt and look what happened when her name was known......Brendas problem was she did not want to ...or could not defend her opinions publicly
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
Then why do you post anonymously.... there is a very good reason why posters do not post with their real name....Brenda certainly didnt and look what happened when her name was known......Brendas problem was she did not want to ...or could not defend her opinions publicly

The dossier compilers showed no desire to defend their opinions and actions publicly either.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 12:55:44 PM
The dossier compilers showed no desire to defend their opinions and actions publicly either.

Neither had anyone on this forum.. Apart from John... And I stiil post even though my identity iis known and I have received the expected abuse
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 01:19:37 PM
Neither had anyone on this forum.. Apart from John... And I stiil post even though my identity iis known and I have received the expected abuse

What "abuse" Davel ?  I have no idea who you are nor do I want to know but anyone could say their identity is known...to their family and friends at least.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2018, 01:29:08 PM
the doddier compliers didnt get burned...no one knows who they are...they had every right to go to the press...that is not opinion..its fact

Oh but they did.  They will have the death of a woman on their consciences for ever.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 01:31:24 PM
Oh but they did.  They will have the death of a woman on their consciences for ever.

In your opinion... I doubt it will be on their conscience as I doubt they attach any blame to themselves... Quite right they are too.. Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2018, 01:31:39 PM
The dossier compilers showed no desire to defend their opinions and actions publicly either.

They disappeared as quickly as Brunty did for fear of exposure so lesson learned imo. Such hypocrites, no more dossiers since.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 01:36:22 PM
They disappeared as quickly as Brunty did for fear of exposure so lesson learned imo. Such hypocrites, no more dossiers since.

May be more in the future... Who knows
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2018, 01:37:49 PM
In your opinion... I doubt it will be on their conscience as I doubt they attach any blame to themselves... Quite right they are too.. Imo

I attach much blame to them just as I do Sky News, Jonathan Levy and Martin Brunt. In my opinion the coroner was wrong not to attach blame to what occurred. The statement by Brenda's son said it all imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 01:48:39 PM
I attach much blame to them just as I do Sky News, Jonathan Levy and Martin Brunt. In my opinion the coroner was wrong not to attach blame to what occurred. The statement by Brenda's son said it all imo.

I dont
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 02:06:45 PM
They disappeared as quickly as Brunty did for fear of exposure so lesson learned imo. Such hypocrites, no more dossiers since.

No point in dossiers if the police neither have the power, the will or the resources to combat online abuse.  As more and more of our legislators find not only themselves but many of their constituents on the receiving end of it and as it gets aired on a regular basis in parliament it is only a matter of time before that situation will change.

Two years ago MPs such as Maria Miller were campaigning...
Snip
Miller successfully pushed the government to create a new offence of revenge pornography in 2014, outlawing the distribution of a private sexual image of someone without their consent and with the intention of causing them distress. In the same year, ministers quadrupled the maximum six-month prison term for internet trolls targeting people with offensive or threatening material to two years. The time limit for prosecutions has been extended to three years.

However, the MP argued the laws around abuse and harm on the internet could be updated further

Miller said people had tried to talk her out of trying to get the law changed to create a specific offence of revenge pornography, some by saying it was already illegal. “It was quite clear after talking to victims and the police that the complex set of existing and sometimes overlapping legislation made it difficult for the police to take meaningful action,” she said.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/13/britain-needs-better-laws-stop-online-abuse-maria-miller-internet
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 02:07:43 PM
Neither had anyone on this forum.. Apart from John... And I stiil post even though my identity iis known and I have received the expected abuse

I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. I'm talking about people who seemed to want others to be exposed to public scrutiny but weren't prepared to expose themselves. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2018, 02:10:46 PM
I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. I'm talking about people who seemed to want others to be exposed to public scrutiny but weren't prepared to expose themselves.

Poison Pen Letters.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 02:15:31 PM
Poison Pen Letters.

A good analogy.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 02:16:43 PM
I attach much blame to them just as I do Sky News, Jonathan Levy and Martin Brunt. In my opinion the coroner was wrong not to attach blame to what occurred. The statement by Brenda's son said it all imo.

The letter from Brenda's son which was accepted into evidence, reveals that he had no concerns about his mother's state of mind or any fear that she would attempt suicide.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 02:21:47 PM
A good analogy.

In many ways perhaps when one takes the cowardice and malice involved.  But usually the poison pen writer is a very sad individual ... in my opinion when abuse is systematic and organised and the abusers can be counted in their hundreds worldwide ... it alters the whole dynamics of the assaults.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 30, 2018, 02:28:52 PM
The letter from Brenda's son which was accepted into evidence, reveals that he had no concerns about his mother's state of mind or any fear that she would attempt suicide.

However...

Her son Ben Leyland, who lives in America, said her ‘outing’ as @sweepyface left his mother “a broken wreck”.

He added: "She was completely destroyed by what had occurred. It was the final straw that pushed my mum to do what she did."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-sky-news-journalist-5371486

That to me implies blame?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 02:34:23 PM
I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. I'm talking about people who seemed to want others to be exposed to public scrutiny but weren't prepared to expose themselves.

It's their business afaiac
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2018, 02:45:59 PM
In many ways perhaps when one takes the cowardice and malice involved.  But usually the poison pen writer is a very sad individual ... in my opinion when abuse is systematic and organised and the abusers can be counted in their hundreds worldwide ... it alters the whole dynamics of the assaults.

I never thought you would have been that critical of the dossier compilers.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 30, 2018, 02:53:26 PM
I never thought you would have been that critical of the dossier compilers.

mcann  supporters dont have any empathy  for anyone but the mcanns they could  care less  about brenda you know it i know it they know  it   if it had not gone  wrong they wouldnt of  given  brenda anymore thought   as long as the mcanns  were protected   all IMO  the mcanns  dont  even care about    anybody online or so  supporters  say
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 02:54:02 PM
I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. I'm talking about people who seemed to want others to be exposed to public scrutiny but weren't prepared to expose themselves.
So you think police should not act on anonymous tip offs... Everything here is opinion... Sceptics support brenda.... Supporters, support the dossier...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 02:56:54 PM
However...

Her son Ben Leyland, who lives in America, said her ‘outing’ as @sweepyface left his mother “a broken wreck”.

He added: "She was completely destroyed by what had occurred. It was the final straw that pushed my mum to do what she did."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-sky-news-journalist-5371486

That to me implies blame?

Final straw confirms there were other factors at play
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 30, 2018, 03:04:19 PM
However...

Her son Ben Leyland, who lives in America, said her ‘outing’ as @sweepyface left his mother “a broken wreck”.

He added: "She was completely destroyed by what had occurred. It was the final straw that pushed my mum to do what she did."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-sky-news-journalist-5371486

That to me implies blame?

to me too brunt  etc  the dossier  put her ove rthe edge brunt and the dossier  people are to blame for that imho
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 03:05:08 PM
So you think police should not act on anonymous tip offs... Everything here is opinion... Sceptics support brenda.... Supporters, support the dossier...


I am sure that would at least be against forum rules. Why does it matter who anyone is.

Why did it matter who Brenda was in real life, she clearly was no threat to the McCanns yet Brunt collared her outside her house and the media attacked her like baying hounds.   

Because of the dossier people and Brunt etc's actions Brenda is dead. Unless one of the supporters can show that she would have taken her life anyway, without having her life ruined by them.   Regardless of what you think about her tweets she did not deserve that but at least one poster on here appear to think that dossier mark 2 is worth thinking about.  Then another death may be (at least partially) on their hands IMO.

Why did the McCanns not speak out on her behalf as surely this was exactly what their Hacked off campaign was all about.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 30, 2018, 03:21:43 PM
So you think police should not act on anonymous tip offs... Everything here is opinion... Sceptics support brenda.... Supporters, support the dossier...

It is fatuous to assume it can be so simply delineated.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 30, 2018, 03:30:27 PM
mcann  supporters dont have any empathy  for anyone but the mcanns they could  care less  about brenda you know it i know it they know  it   if it had not gone  wrong they wouldnt of  given  brenda anymore thought   as long as the mcanns  were protected   all IMO  the mcanns  dont  even care about    anybody online or so  supporters  say


Once again you post the same untruths.
No matter how often I and others tell you that we do have empathy for others as well as the McCanns, you continue to trot out the same line over and over.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 03:34:22 PM
It is fatuous to asume it can be so simply delineated.
That makes me smile...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 05:31:14 PM
I think it's a major problem of anonymous  social media comments, that posters make posts that they would not make to a persons face... That's exactly what happened  to Brenda... As I posted previously posters need to be more responsible... I would be happy to repeat any criticism I have made here to the person concerned
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:46:42 PM
Either the dossier compilers were doing a good thing, as claimed, in which case it shouldn’t be an issue to be associated with it, or they were doing a bad thing.
If I admitted to being one of the dossier compilers what sort of reaction could I expect from Brend’s supporters on here?  How about if I gave you my full name and contact details, could you guarantee I would be safe from harrassment and abuse?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:47:49 PM
I would love to see a definition of a 'decent' person. I see it as related to 'respectable'. In my opinion many people have been seen as decent and respectable..............until they were found out.
Exactly like Brenda.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:50:31 PM
I agree. The internet has given everyone the opportunity to express their opinions. We all read opinions we disagree with or which we find offensive. That doesn't give us the right to take action against those who have offended us. Posting anonymously and offending others isn't illegal.
You cannot be serious.  I don’t have the right to take action against those who have offended me?!  Of course I have that right!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 30, 2018, 05:53:30 PM
What sort of action would you have in mind ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:54:45 PM
I attach much blame to them just as I do Sky News, Jonathan Levy and Martin Brunt. In my opinion the coroner was wrong not to attach blame to what occurred. The statement by Brenda's son said it all imo.
What nonsense.  You’ll be calling for it to be made illegal for people to contact the media with their concerns about possible criminal behaviour next.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:56:22 PM
I'm not talking about anyone on this forum. I'm talking about people who seemed to want others to be exposed to public scrutiny but weren't prepared to expose themselves.
What’s wrong with that? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:57:04 PM
A good analogy.
A rubbish analogy.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 05:59:58 PM
What sort of action would you have in mind ?
Depends doesn’t it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 06:02:52 PM
If I admitted to being one of the dossier compilers what sort of reaction could I expect from Brend’s supporters on here?  How about if I gave you my full name and contact details, could you guarantee I would be safe from harrassment and abuse?

If you admitted to be a compiler then you would get nothing from me apart from a couple of questions.

1) Did you think of any possible consequences of providing the full details of sceptics to various sources in the media
2) Would you do it again.

There may be more questions but I can't think of any at present. Of course you could admit it (if you were a dossier compiler of course) without giving your name and contact details. I can't see why anyone would need those, unless they were compiling a dossier of course.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 30, 2018, 06:04:29 PM
Depends doesn’t it?

Does It ? Upon what does it depend?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 06:11:10 PM
If you admitted to be a compiler then you would get nothing from me apart from a couple of questions.

1) Did you think of any possible consequences of providing the full details of sceptics to various sources in the media
2) Would you do it again.

There may be more questions but I can't think of any at present. Of course you could admit it (if you were a dossier compiler of course) without giving your name and contact details. I can't see why anyone would need those, unless they were compiling a dossier of course.
If I was a (the) dossier compiler I would answer your questions.  As I’m not I can’t.  I could pretend to be one though if you like, and see where we go with it...?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 06:12:43 PM
Does It ? Upon what does it depend?
What was said, where it was said, how it was said, why it was said, who said it, etc.  Do you think I would have no right to take action against those that offend me, seriously?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 30, 2018, 06:18:53 PM
What was said, where it was said, how it was said, why it was said, who said it, etc. Do you think I would have no right to take action against those that offend me, seriously?

That wasn't my query, which was about your action.
Not sure that you should or would have a right, as your action might be illegal.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 06:20:09 PM
Does It ? Upon what does it depend?

As most bullies are cowards at heart it would depend if they made a grovelling apology
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 06:21:38 PM
That wasn't my query, which was about your action.
Not sure that you should or would have a right, as your action might be illegal.
I don’t do illegal so would I have the right to take action legally or not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on August 30, 2018, 06:25:53 PM
I don’t do illegal so would I have the right to take action, legally or not?

No body has given you this 'right', though you have  a degree of freedom of action, as long as you stay within the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 06:27:00 PM
No body has given you this 'right', though you have  a degree of freedom of action, as long as you stay within the law.

Then he has that right... As I do..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 06:32:35 PM
No body has given you this 'right', though you have  a degree of freedom of action, as long as you stay within the law.
In other words it is nonsense to say I have no right to take action against someone who offends me.  I can sue them for starters, if their offensive statement is based on lies, I can remonstrate with them in person or by message, I can reciprocate in kind, if the offensive statement concerns my sexuality or ethnic origin or religion I can go to the police, likewise if the offensive statement is threatening or intimidating, I can even go to the media, if the offensive statement was made by someone with a public profile that would be in the public interest, or of interest to the public.  Plenty of ways I could take action, all within the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 06:39:16 PM
Brenda thought she had the right to say what she liked with impunity... She didn't.   
 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 06:57:03 PM
Is it true that every UK citizen has the right not to have their name publicised by the media until they have been charged with a crime, as per the OP? Wasn’t there a nurse in the news recently arrested for murdering eight babies, her name released but no charges brought so far.  Who’s to blame if she were to take her own life?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 07:53:13 PM
Twitter is a lawless place where insults seem to be the norm. This forum is pretty good in my opinion as there are rules preventing such behaviour.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 07:55:09 PM
Twitter is a lawless place where insults seem to be the norm. This forum is pretty good in my opinion as there are rules preventing such behaviour.

You miss, a very important  point... Twitter isn't lawless
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 08:00:50 PM
You miss, a very important  point... Twitter isn't lawless

Compared to this forum it is imo. Surely the dossier compilers tried complaining on there first?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 08:03:15 PM
Compared to this forum it is imo. Surely the dossier compilers tried complaining on there first?

The correct place for them to take their complaint was to the police... IMO... And if the police don't act... Go to the press

If a certain person hadn't stopped harassing and abusing me and my wife I would have done exactly the same
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on August 30, 2018, 08:47:57 PM
Is it true that every UK citizen has the right not to have their name publicised by the media until they have been charged with a crime, as per the OP? Wasn’t there a nurse in the news recently arrested for murdering eight babies, her name released but no charges brought so far.  Who’s to blame if she were to take her own life?

So you agree that Brenda shouldn't have had her name published having committed no crime,much the same as Alec Salmond who is being dragged through the mud having to defend his name against as yet unsubstantiated claims. Carl Sargeant a welsh MP committed suicide after being named after allegations him surfaced. note not having been convicted, the press have an awful lot to answer for.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 09:47:50 PM
So you agree that Brenda shouldn't have had her name published having committed no crime,much the same as Alec Salmond who is being dragged through the mud having to defend his name against as yet unsubstantiated claims. Carl Sargeant a welsh MP committed suicide after being named after allegations him surfaced. note not having been convicted, the press have an awful lot to answer for.
I don’t believe I ever said what you said I said did I?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 09:49:52 PM
So you agree that Brenda shouldn't have had her name published having committed no crime,much the same as Alec Salmond who is being dragged through the mud having to defend his name against as yet unsubstantiated claims. Carl Sargeant a welsh MP committed suicide after being named after allegations him surfaced. note not having been convicted, the press have an awful lot to answer for.

Gutter journalism relying on gossip and innuendo rather than facts. They have driven people to alternative sources in their search for the truth. I imagine they're surviving on those piles of ads festooning their sites on the internet now. You can't read their 'stories' for them now.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:00:14 PM
Gutter journalism relying on gossip and innuendo rather than facts. They have driven people to alternative sources in their search for the truth. I imagine they're surviving on those piles of ads festooning their sites on the internet now. You can't read their 'stories' for them now.

No complaints when the press, were printing gossip and innuendo about the McCanns?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 10:07:49 PM
No complaints when the press, were printing gossip and innuendo about the McCanns?

Was G-Unit there? I know I wasn't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:12:40 PM
Was G-Unit there? I know I wasn't.

You mean you weren't following  the case, when the press was printing gossip and inuendo against the McCann's.. I certainly was
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2018, 10:15:30 PM
No complaints when the press, were printing gossip and innuendo about the McCanns

I wasn't interested at the time and I haven't read newspapers for years anyway. They have continued printing gossip and innuendo ever since, just not about the McCanns; they're too scared of Carter-Ruck. They pick on those who can't fight back now, like 'women in purple'.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 10:17:55 PM
I wasn't interested at the time and I haven't read newspapers for years anyway. They have continued printing gossip and innuendo ever since, just not about the McCanns; they're too scared of Carter-Ruck. They pick on those who can't fight back now, like 'women in purple'.

And of course Brenda Leyland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:18:18 PM
I wasn't interested at the time and I haven't read newspapers for years anyway. They have continued printing gossip and innuendo ever since, just not about the McCanns; they're too scared of Carter-Ruck. They pick on those who can't fight back now, like 'women in purple'.
I read them online.. Of course they are frightened  of CR... And so they should be... They can print anything supported by evidence.. And that's how it should be
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:19:18 PM
And of course Brenda Leyland.

IMO nothing was printed about Brenda that wasn't true... That was her problem
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 10:20:23 PM
I wasn't interested at the time and I haven't read newspapers for years anyway. They have continued printing gossip and innuendo ever since, just not about the McCanns; they're too scared of Carter-Ruck. They pick on those who can't fight back now, like 'women in purple'.
Cliff Richard, Alex Salmond, Harvey Weinstein, are these less scary than the McCanns?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:26:14 PM
I've been far more harshly treated by the media than brenda ever was... But I never contemplated suicide... It's ridiculous  to suggest sky caused brendas death
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 10:31:08 PM
IMO nothing was printed about  Brenda that wasn't true... That was her problem

Apart from calling her a troll perhaps?

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

This sense of both the noun and the verb "troll" is associated with Internet discourse, but also has been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, the mass media have used "troll" to mean "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families".[4][5] In addition, depictions of trolling have been included in popular fictional works, such as the HBO television program The Newsroom, in which a main character encounters harassing persons online and tries to infiltrate their circles by posting negative sexual comments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

From what I have read Brenda wasn't doing twitter to laugh at the McCanns but because she genuinely believed that the parents were guilty in some way. She was more of a justice seeker than a troll IMO but perhaps got carried away from time to time as many on there appear to do.  There are some nasty unpleasant posters on twitter that I have read, on both sides of the argument but I don't see any of the nastier supporters being "outed" in the dossier.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:34:09 PM
Apart from calling her a troll perhaps?

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

This sense of both the noun and the verb "troll" is associated with Internet discourse, but also has been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, the mass media have used "troll" to mean "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families".[4][5] In addition, depictions of trolling have been included in popular fictional works, such as the HBO television program The Newsroom, in which a main character encounters harassing persons online and tries to infiltrate their circles by posting negative sexual comments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

From what I have read Brenda wasn't doing twitter to laugh at the McCanns but because she genuinely believed that the parents were guilty in some way. She was more of a justice seeker than a troll IMO but perhaps got carried away from time to time as many on there appear to do.  There are some nasty unpleasant posters on twitter that I have read, on both sides of the argument but I don't see any of the nastier supporters being "outed" in the dossier.

Have you read brendas tweets... Are you aware of her treatment of Amy?... I suspect you would answer no to both... Brenda made a lot if very nasty tweets towards the McCann's... Her actions were despicable IMO...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 10:45:31 PM
Apart from calling her a troll perhaps?

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

This sense of both the noun and the verb "troll" is associated with Internet discourse, but also has been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, the mass media have used "troll" to mean "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families".[4][5] In addition, depictions of trolling have been included in popular fictional works, such as the HBO television program The Newsroom, in which a main character encounters harassing persons online and tries to infiltrate their circles by posting negative sexual comments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

From what I have read Brenda wasn't doing twitter to laugh at the McCanns but because she genuinely believed that the parents were guilty in some way. She was more of a justice seeker than a troll IMO but perhaps got carried away from time to time as many on there appear to do.  There are some nasty unpleasant posters on twitter that I have read, on both sides of the argument but I don't see any of the nastier supporters being "outed" in the dossier.

Why do you think so called supporters should be 'outed' in a dossier detailing abuse and hatred perpetrated by so called sceptics?
I don't think that is a sound argument ... when you think about it ... do you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2018, 10:50:05 PM
Brenda had her opinions.... Why did she not have the courage of her convictions to justify those opinions.. Perhaps because she realised too late... That to express hatred towards  the McCann's was not a very nice thing to do
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 30, 2018, 10:54:05 PM
Why do you think so called supporters should be 'outed' in a dossier detailing abuse and hatred perpetrated by so called sceptics?
I don't think that is a sound argument ... when you think about it ... do you?

I wasn't proposing a dossier by sceptics. If you read my post again I was asking why weren't the nastier supporters tweets included in the original dossier.

Davel I have read Brenda's tweets about AT and I have already said (TWICE) that I don't agree with her at all in what she did to AT.

Perhaps her tweets were unpleasant but I am sure if we search through some of the supporter tweets we could find some equality nasty unpleasant tweets too.  I have read some deeply unpleasant ones regarding Goncalo Amaral too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 10:54:29 PM
Apart from calling her a troll perhaps?

In Internet slang, a troll (/troʊl, trɒl/) is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

This sense of both the noun and the verb "troll" is associated with Internet discourse, but also has been used more widely. Media attention in recent years has equated trolling with online harassment. For example, the mass media have used "troll" to mean "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families".[4][5] In addition, depictions of trolling have been included in popular fictional works, such as the HBO television program The Newsroom, in which a main character encounters harassing persons online and tries to infiltrate their circles by posting negative sexual comments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

From what I have read Brenda wasn't doing twitter to laugh at the McCanns but because she genuinely believed that the parents were guilty in some way. She was more of a justice seeker than a troll IMO but perhaps got carried away from time to time as many on there appear to do.  There are some nasty unpleasant posters on twitter that I have read, on both sides of the argument but I don't see any of the nastier supporters being "outed" in the dossier.
Have you seen the dossier?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2018, 10:57:22 PM
I wasn't proposing a dossier by sceptics. If you read my post again I was asking why weren't the nastier supporters tweets included in the original dossier.

Davel I have read Brenda's tweets about AT and I have already said (TWICE) that I don't agree with her at all in what she did to AT.

Perhaps her tweets were unpleasant but I am sure if we search through some of the supporter tweets we could find some equality nasty unpleasant tweets too.  I have read some deeply unpleasant ones regarding Goncalo Amaral too. Why do some supporters call him Gonzo or Amaral? Are either of those names acceptable to anyone here?
The dossier was compiled by someone concerned about the McCanns’ safety.  Had there been any supporter s’ tweets that gave concern about the McCanns safety they may well have been included.  Unless you’ve seen the dossier how do you know what was in it and what wasn’t?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 30, 2018, 11:31:08 PM
I wasn't proposing a dossier by sceptics. If you read my post again I was asking why weren't the nastier supporters tweets included in the original dossier.

Davel I have read Brenda's tweets about AT and I have already said (TWICE) that I don't agree with her at all in what she did to AT.

Perhaps her tweets were unpleasant but I am sure if we search through some of the supporter tweets we could find some equality nasty unpleasant tweets too.  I have read some deeply unpleasant ones regarding Goncalo Amaral too. Why do some supporters call him Gonzo or Amaral? Are either of those names acceptable to anyone here?

The point is that the dossier was compiled of hate comment directed to and about the McCanns.  Such vitriol has been spewed out for over eleven years now ... if you feel you wish to justify that unimaginable level of abuse directed at the family of a missing child that is entirely between you and your conscience.

But if we were discussing the suicide of anyone in that family and not that of one of their tormentors ... who do you think would be responsible?

That is actually a rhetorical question ... I do know the mantra.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 07:30:53 AM
The point is that the dossier was compiled of hate comment directed to and about the McCanns.  Such vitriol has been spewed out for over eleven years now ... if you feel you wish to justify that unimaginable level of abuse directed at the family of a missing child that is entirely between you and your conscience.

But if we were discussing the suicide of anyone in that family and not that of one of their tormentors ... who do you think would be responsible?

That is actually a rhetorical question ... I do know the mantra.
I think in such a circumstance the alleged guilty conscience of the suicide victim and their shame and fear of being discovered would be wholly blamed, not the media, and not any whistleblower or armchair dossier compiler / detectives.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 31, 2018, 07:40:22 AM
The point is that the dossier was compiled of hate comment directed to and about the McCanns. 

Snip

If you went to the police after an altercation with a neighbour, do you think they would be satisfied with a record of just what the neighbour said or would they want to know what you said too. IMO most of these tweets should be taken in context of the rough and tumble of debate on twitter and not as a set of statements made in cold blood.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 07:55:38 AM
If you went to the police after an altercation with a neighbour, do you think they would be satisfied with a record of just what the neighbour said or would they want to know what you said too. IMO most of these tweets should be taken in context of the rough and tumble of debate on twitter and not as a set of statements made in cold blood.

Debate on Twitter says it all.  The only thing Twitter is of any use for is discovering the ability to say something in 140 Characters in relatively good and understandable English.  Most of them fail miserably.  Except for the Insults.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 31, 2018, 08:05:34 AM
Debate on Twitter says it all.  The only thing Twitter is of any use for is discovering the ability to say something in 140 Characters in relatively good and understandable English.  Most of them fail miserably.  Except for the Insults.

We should all consider on here that if someone collected a series of posts out of context from a selected group of posters we could show how bullying and abusive that group was
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 08:07:58 AM
We should all consider on here that if someone collected a series of posts out of context from a selected group of posters we could show how bullying and abusive that group was

Presuming that they are, of course.  A lot of us aren't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 08:13:16 AM
We should all consider on here that if someone collected a series of posts out of context from a selected group of posters we could show how bullying and abusive that group was
Please do so and prove your point.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 08:15:20 AM
If you went to the police after an altercation with a neighbour, do you think they would be satisfied with a record of just what the neighbour said or would they want to know what you said too. IMO most of these tweets should be taken in context of the rough and tumble of debate on twitter and not as a set of statements made in cold blood.
if brenda had confined her abusive twets to those who tweeted to her you might have a point...she didnt..so you dont..imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 08:16:54 AM
If you went to the police after an altercation with a neighbour, do you think they would be satisfied with a record of just what the neighbour said or would they want to know what you said too. IMO most of these tweets should be taken in context of the rough and tumble of debate on twitter and not as a set of statements made in cold blood.

Context is important as it is on here. There's a difference between attacking for no reason and doing it in response to being attacked oneself.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 08:17:54 AM
if brenda had confined her abusive twets to those who tweeted to her you might have a point...she didnt..so you dont..imo
Weren’t her .........t and most abusive tweets about Amy T made after she believed that tweeter had left twitter in fear?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 08:21:56 AM
Context is important as it is on here. There's a difference between attacking for no reason and doing it in response to being attacked oneself.

Precisely... The McCann's were not attacking brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 08:36:14 AM
Context is important as it is on here. There's a difference between attacking for no reason and doing it in response to being attacked oneself.

Indeed there is.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 08:37:21 AM
Precisely... The McCann's were not attacking brenda

I think any conversations she was involved in were with others interested in the McCann case, not with any family members. Unless they were there incognito of course. Who knows?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 08:43:18 AM
I think any conversations she was involved in were with others interested in the McCann case, not with any family members. Unless they were there incognito of course. Who knows?


Are you saying that it is acceptable to tell lies about someone, insult someone, accuse someone of crimes as long as the person does not actually read these statements themselves.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 08:50:30 AM
I think any conversations she was involved in were with others interested in the McCann case, not with any family members. Unless they were there incognito of course. Who knows?

Doesn't justify her abusive tweets towards the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 08:53:32 AM

Are you saying that it is acceptable to tell lies about someone, insult someone, accuse someone of crimes as long as the person does not actually read these statements themselves.

I think people should be allowed to express their opinions so long as they do so without breaking the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 08:57:20 AM
Doesn't justify her abusive tweets towards the mccanns

People only have to justify their words to platform owners, the police or libel lawyers. They're not obliged to answer to members of the public who take offence at what they say.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:02:14 AM
People only have to justify their words to platform owners, the police or libel lawyers. They're not obliged to answer to members of the public who take offence at what they say.

Or they can be named and shamed by the press... As brenda was... Nothing wrong with that imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
I think people should be allowed to express their opinions so long as they do so without breaking the law.

And people should take responsibility  for their, actions... People als have the right to report suspected crimes to the police and also to go to the press to highlight abuse..
Brendas problem was that she, was, ashamed of the things she said and couldn't justify them
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:10:02 AM
I think people should be allowed to express their opinions so long as they do so without breaking the law.

Do you think the rules of this forum are unfair... We, are not able to fully express our views... Your idea, would, result in chaos
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 09:32:31 AM
Do you think the rules of this forum are unfair... We, are not able to fully express our views... Your idea, would, result in chaos


Indeed!.
I try to imagine a classroom of children being allowed to express their opinions of their fellow pupils.
We teach our children to have respect, not to make unjustifiable accusations, not to lie, to try and be as thoughtful and kind to each other as possible.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 31, 2018, 09:43:07 AM
I think any conversations she was involved in were with others interested in the McCann case, not with any family members. Unless they were there incognito of course. Who knows?

If I remember correctly,   she would tweet as though she was speaking to the McCann's, rambling on from early morning till night.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
And people should take responsibility  for their, actions... People als have the right to report suspected crimes to the police and also to go to the press to highlight abuse..
Brendas problem was that she, was, ashamed of the things she said and couldn't justify them

Her problem was that she was exposed and made an example of in my opinion. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:17:40 AM
Her problem was that she was exposed and made an example of in my opinion.

I think that's true.... But it needs, to be done.. Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 10:21:57 AM
I think that's true.... But it needs, to be done.. Imo

Should all those who abuse others on Twitter be investigated by the police and if found to have committed no offense be exposed by the media?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 31, 2018, 10:30:24 AM
Her problem was that she was exposed and made an example of in my opinion.

According to Martin Brunt he was going to make his way down the list of user names in the dossier.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on August 31, 2018, 10:34:29 AM
Context is important as it is on here. There's a difference between attacking for no reason and doing it in response to being attacked oneself.
On twitter if you call me a nasty word to my twitter face I can block you or otherwise ignore you or reply to your tweet abusing me by abusing you back ... and twitter being twitter anyone else who got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning can join in to the melee should they be into that sort of thing.

What though, if I am an onlooker who happens to know you and everything about you and your family ... where you work, your home address, your children's school etc etc etc ... who decides to stalk you  ... who decides to troll you ... who organises a small group to join in the fun.

How would you feel if tweets started appearing about your visit to the supermarket and what you were wearing?
How would you feel if a leaflet campaign featuring you targeted your neighbours?
How would you feel if details of the times of your children's route to school was tweeted to all and sundry.
How would you feel if while you were dining with your children a picture of you all was posted on line giving precise details of your whereabouts.
How would you deal with the general everyday tweets expressing hatred for you and your family over an eleven year period.

According to your posts all of the above and more is legal ... oh well.

However ... the point is that Brenda Leyland was in my opinion doing precisely what you have said in your post and was "attacking for no reason and doing it in response to being attacked oneself".
The objects of her vitriol weren't tweeting hatred to her ... it was all unwarranted by any stretch of the imagination and all very one-sided.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 11:00:11 AM
Her problem was that she was exposed and made an example of in my opinion.

And why not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 11:07:30 AM
Should all those who abuse others on Twitter be investigated by the police and if found to have committed no offense be exposed by the media?

It's a matter of proportionality as most would realise... Anyone expressing the level and volume of abuse brenda did need to be stopped... Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 31, 2018, 11:19:24 AM
On twitter if you call me a nasty word to my twitter face I can block you or otherwise ignore you or reply to your tweet abusing me by abusing you back ... and twitter being twitter anyone else who got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning can join in to the melee should they be into that sort of thing.

What though, if I am an onlooker who happens to know you and everything about you and your family ... where you work, your home address, your children's school etc etc etc ... who decides to stalk you  ... who decides to troll you ... who organises a small group to join in the fun.

How would you feel if tweets started appearing about your visit to the supermarket and what you were wearing?
How would you feel if a leaflet campaign featuring you targeted your neighbours?
How would you feel if details of the times of your children's route to school was tweeted to all and sundry.
How would you feel if while you were dining with your children a picture of you all was posted on line giving precise details of your whereabouts.
How would you deal with the general everyday tweets expressing hatred for you and your family over an eleven year period.

According to your posts all of the above and more is legal ... oh well.

However ... the point is that Brenda Leyland was in my opinion doing precisely what you have said in your post and was "attacking for no reason and doing it in response to being attacked oneself".
The objects of her vitriol weren't tweeting hatred to her ... it was all unwarranted by any stretch of the imagination and all very one-sided.

Very well said Brietta  8((()*/
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 31, 2018, 11:24:49 AM
Those who say it is a matter for the Police to sort out,   why don't the anti McCann tweeters leave it to the Police?  There are two Police forces saying the McCann's are not suspects yet there are tweeters still tweeting the McCann's are guilty that they are murderers s..m etc.   what right have they to still carry on this abuse?

IMO those saying the dossier compilers were wrong to do what they did are standing up for all those on twitter who hurl abuse at the McCann's day and night.    What makes a person do that?   Why go on twitter with the intent to just tweet abuse and call the parents of a missing child names?   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 11:41:33 AM
Very well said Brietta  8((()*/

Agreed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 11:45:51 AM
Those who say it is a matter for the Police to sort out,   why don't the anti McCann tweeters leave it to the Police?  There are two Police forces saying the McCann's are not suspects yet there are tweeters still tweeting the McCann's are guilty that they are murderers s..m etc.   what right have they to still carry on this abuse?

IMO those saying the dossier compilers were wrong to do what they did are standing up for all those on twitter who hurl abuse at the McCann's day and night.    What makes a person do that?   Why go on twitter with the intent to just tweet abuse and call the parents of a missing child names?

Why does anyone abuse others? I've no idea. All I know is that this case brought out the worst in a lot of people both for and against the McCanns, but only one person was exposed. A good journalist in my opinion would have been less biased in his choice of victim. Why not one of each, for balance?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 11:56:01 AM
Why does anyone abuse others? I've no idea. All I know is that this case brought out the worst in a lot of people both for and against the McCanns, but only one person was exposed. A good journalist in my opinion would have been less biased in his choice of victim. Why not one of each, for balance?

The issue was the abuse of the McCann's.... So balance would be a McCann supporter...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 12:01:52 PM
So you agree that Brenda shouldn't have had her name published having committed no crime,much the same as Alec Salmond who is being dragged through the mud having to defend his name against as yet unsubstantiated claims. Carl Sargeant a welsh MP committed suicide after being named after allegations him surfaced. note not having been convicted, the press have an awful lot to answer for.

I believe the press and media have been allowed to get away with far too much recently with the Leveson Inquiry been exposed as nothing more than a sham. Look at what happen to Sir Cliff Richard, the guys a wreck thanks to the b......s at the BBC who thought they would out him too.

Using the press and media as a stick to beat someone when the police don't wish to pursue a complaint should not be allowed.  It is harassment, pure and simple. Brenda Leyland should have called the police the moment Sky News approached her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 12:11:49 PM
I've been far more harshly treated by the media than brenda ever was... But I never contemplated suicide... It's ridiculous  to suggest sky caused brendas death

Contributed is the word you are looking for.  Sky News contributed to her death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 12:17:41 PM
The issue was the abuse of the McCann's.... So balance would be a McCann supporter...

A McCann supporter who abused others, of course. Unless none of them ever did that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on August 31, 2018, 12:21:33 PM
Why does anyone abuse others? I've no idea. All I know is that this case brought out the worst in a lot of people both for and against the McCanns, but only one person was exposed. A good journalist in my opinion would have been less biased in his choice of victim. Why not one of each, for balance?

I don't think he was interested in internet wars against anti and pro McCann's.    It was the abuse thrown at the McCann family.

I read on the Jill Havern forum that Brunt intended to work his way down the list of names in the dossier.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 12:32:51 PM
I don't think he was interested in internet wars against anti and pro McCann's.    It was the abuse thrown at the McCann family.

I read on the Jill Havern forum that Brunt intended to work his way down the list of names in the dossier.

I agree.
The insults thrown about on twitter between two sets of anonymous twitterers is quite different from the abuse thrown at a named family.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 12:44:16 PM
A McCann supporter who abused others, of course. Unless none of them ever did that?

Abused who... There are, people, abusing each other everday on social media... Mostly anonymous... That's not the issue

That's give and take
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 01:08:31 PM

Apart from The Dossier which we don't seem to know much about, apart from Brenda, what else was said?

Has anyone actually seen it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 01:10:07 PM
Abused who... There are, people, abusing each other everday on social media... Mostly anonymous... That's not the issue

That's give and take

Twitter users can block abusers at any time.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 01:20:48 PM
I agree.
The insults thrown about on twitter between two sets of anonymous twitterers is quite different from the abuse thrown at a named family.

I thought it was quite normal to abuse named people on there?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 01:39:26 PM
I thought it was quite normal to abuse named people on there?

Is it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 01:41:33 PM

IMO you are very very wrong with that post L

nothing to do with any row with sons


Asked by the coroner if there was anything which indicated a concern for her life, Mr Brunt said: "No, but when I asked her how she was, she said 'oh I have thought about ending it all but I am feeling better - I have had a drink and spoken to my son'".



The key issues in this case skilfully avoided and evaded by everyone - a vulnerable woman

pushed over the edge by a bullying, story-hungry, pro-McCann media empire,

A and no-one seems to bat an eyelid or raise even a whisper of protest. IMO

Going back somewhat on my weekly catchup.

I think you've hit the nail on the head kizzy.  Brunt spoke to Brenda and learned that she was vulnerable yet Sky still went ahead and aired that footage.  Anyone with a titter of wit would know that you just don't get involved in those situations. It is beyond me what the hell they thought they were doing?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 01:44:15 PM
Twitter users can block abusers at any time.

Really?  I didn't know that.  But there wouldn't have been much point.  I bailed out from Twitter a long ago.  I only needed to crack the 140 Characters in relatively good English.  I accomplished that without too much trouble.  After that Twitter became irrelevant.  it was only ever an English thing for me.  I mean, do come on.  I can deliver a frightfully good Insult when called upon.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
Really?  I didn't know that.  But there wouldn't have been much point.  I bailed out from Twitter a long ago.  I only needed to crack the 140 Characters in relatively good English.  I accomplished that without too much trouble.  After that Twitter became irrelevant.  it was only ever an English thing for me.  I mean, do come on.  I can deliver a frightfully good Insult when called upon.

It is the users choice, you can block another user instantly, nobody is forced to read abusive posts.  Same with Facebook etc.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 02:01:55 PM
The dossier compilers had the right to do what they did too, as did Martin Brunt.

Actually no. What they did was to abuse their position as national broadcasters. By the way, did Sky ever receive any sanctions over their callous actions or as I suspect, it was swept under the carpet?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 02:02:14 PM
Going back somewhat on my weekly catchup.

I think you've hit the nail on the head kizzy.  Brunt spoke to Brenda and learned that she was vulnerable yet Sky still went ahead and aired that footage.  Anyone with a titter of wit would know that you just don't get involved in those situations. It is beyond me what the hell they thought they were doing?


Did this meeting and conversation with Martin Brunt not take place after the news  broadcast had taken place?
I am unsure but vaguely remember that Brenda invited him into her home some hours after the initial meeting and the  subsequent broadcast.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on August 31, 2018, 02:25:02 PM
Actually no. What they did was to abuse their position as national broadcasters. By the way, did Sky ever receive any sanctions over their callous actions or as I suspect, it was swept under the carpet?

martin brunt  didnt go back to work for  weeks  did he??  the supporters on this forum who support  what sky  did and what he   did  are  too personally involved  this case  imo   to  think it  was ok for  sky and martin brunt to basically lead brenda  to killing herself
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 02:30:00 PM
Actually no. What they did was to abuse their position as national broadcasters. By the way, did Sky ever receive any sanctions over their callous actions or as I suspect, it was swept under the carpet?

Brendas tweetes were abusive and callous.... Did sky break any laws...
That seems to be the benchmark brenda is judged by so why not the same for sky
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
It seems the only people criticising sky are this that already dislike the McCann's... Therefore a biased viewpoint
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 02:36:02 PM
It is the users choice, you can block another user instantly, nobody is forced to read abusive posts.  Same with Facebook etc.

It just takes a bit longer on this Forum.  But putting someone on "Ignore" is hardly useful.  Especially for Moderators.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 02:42:31 PM
martin brunt  didnt go back to work for  weeks  did he??  the supporters on this forum who support  what sky  did and what he   did  are  too personally involved  this case  imo   to  think it  was ok for  sky and martin brunt to basically lead brenda  to killing herself

I am delighted to see that your command of The English Language has improved somewhat.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on August 31, 2018, 02:47:03 PM
It seems the only people criticising sky are this that already dislike the McCann's... Therefore a biased viewpoint

Sky did wrong and Brunt paid a price for it.  That's why it has never been repeated. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 02:56:27 PM
martin brunt  didnt go back to work for  weeks  did he??  the supporters on this forum who support  what sky  did and what he   did  are  too personally involved  this case  imo   to  think it  was ok for  sky and martin brunt to basically lead brenda  to killing herself

What do you mean by "too personally involved"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 02:56:40 PM
Sky did wrong and Brunt paid a price for it.  That's why it has never been repeated.

According to those on a couple of forums who don't like the McCann's...no one else seems to have taken any notice of it
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 03:51:01 PM
Unlike the majority of 'victims' of the media ... on this occasion the opportunity to have the right of reply aired on the rolling news was offered and was declined.

You don't actually think Sky News would have broadcast BL's opinion on the McCann case for the entire nation to see?

That's the ironic thing about it, had she gone on camera to reveal her views, I don't think any footage would have been broadcast at all.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
You don't actually think Sky News would have broadcast BL's opinion on the McCann case for the entire nation to see?

That's the ironic thing about it, had she gone on camera to reveal her views, I don't think any footage would have been broadcast at all.
Sky would not be able to broad cast brendas libellous abuse
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 04:23:13 PM
Sky would not be able to broad cast brendas libellous abuse

Exactly and so the entire exercise was one of futility IMHO.  Let's hope they and the BBC have now learned their lesson albeit a tad late for Brenda and Sir Cliff.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on August 31, 2018, 04:26:56 PM
Exactly and so the entire exercise was one of futility IMHO.


Has the "exercise" reduced the amount of libellous tweets against the McCanns on twitter?
A genuine question as I don't do Twitter.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 04:38:50 PM
Exactly and so the entire exercise was one of futility IMHO.  Let's hope they and the BBC have now learned their lesson albeit a tad late for Brenda and Sir Cliff.

The Media are all being much more careful these days.  You can't' even get in half decent comment now.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 31, 2018, 05:58:41 PM
Actually no. What they did was to abuse their position as national broadcasters. By the way, did Sky ever receive any sanctions over their callous actions or as I suspect, it was swept under the carpet?

It is interesting that on a site allegedly so hot on justice, human rights etc the actions of Sky which in this instance likely involved a tort, possibly a crime and infringement of privacy are seemingly condoned.......

Don't give me the "Brenda was worse routine". What she did was unpleasant and obsessive but not illegal.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 06:10:28 PM
It is interesting that on a site allegedly so hot on justice, human rights etc the actions of Sky which in this instance likely involved a tort, possibly a crime and infringement of privacy are seemingly condoned.......

Don't give me the "Brenda was worse routine". What she did was unpleasant and obsessive but not illegal.

It seems brendas behaviour.... Which was abusive and obsessive is being condoned...
Afaiaa... It is perfectly legal to film anyone in a public place
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 06:13:55 PM
It is interesting that on a site allegedly so hot on justice, human rights etc the actions of Sky which in this instance likely involved a tort, possibly a crime and infringement of privacy are seemingly condoned.......

Don't give me the "Brenda was worse routine". What she did was unpleasant and obsessive but not illegal.

I think we already know that.  But the none of us are half so daft as you sometimes  pretend to be.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 06:29:19 PM
My friend was doorstepped by a newspaper for no other reason then she donated to the Amaral fund. What is it about this case that makes the media loss all sense of right and wrong ? My friend was going about her legal business, donating to a cause she believed in. Why would anyone believe that they deserved an explanation for that ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 06:44:08 PM
I think people should be allowed to express their opinions so long as they do so without breaking the law.
Apparently repeatedly referring to people as murderers on social media is not against the law.  IMO however it should be against twitters t and c’s and transgressors should be booted off permanently, IP banned.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 06:47:51 PM
Why does anyone abuse others? I've no idea. All I know is that this case brought out the worst in a lot of people both for and against the McCanns, but only one person was exposed. A good journalist in my opinion would have been less biased in his choice of victim. Why not one of each, for balance?
Others “sceptics” have been exposed in the past and seem quite proud of their notoriety, and certainly not topped themselves.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 06:48:42 PM
My friend was doorstepped by a newspaper for no other reason then she donated to the Amaral fund. What is it about this case that makes the media loss all sense of right and wrong ? My friend was going about her legal business, donating to a cause she believed in. Why would anyone believe that they deserved an explanation for that ?

Why has no one ever doorstepped me?  I would really like to be doorstepped.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 06:48:55 PM
Why does anyone abuse others? I've no idea. All I know is that this case brought out the worst in a lot of people both for and against the McCanns, but only one person was exposed. A good journalist in my opinion would have been less biased in his choice of victim. Why not one of each, for balance?
It was Sky, not the BBC! 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 06:51:17 PM
Actually no. What they did was to abuse their position as national broadcasters. By the way, did Sky ever receive any sanctions over their callous actions or as I suspect, it was swept under the carpet?
They received no sanctions because they did nothing wrong IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 06:53:43 PM
It is interesting that on a site allegedly so hot on justice, human rights etc the actions of Sky which in this instance likely involved a tort, possibly a crime and infringement of privacy are seemingly condoned.......

Don't give me the "Brenda was worse routine". What she did was unpleasant and obsessive but not illegal.
If Sky behaved criminally why weren’t they prosecuted?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 06:54:29 PM
My friend was doorstepped by a newspaper for no other reason then she donated to the Amaral fund. What is it about this case that makes the media loss all sense of right and wrong ? My friend was going about her legal business, donating to a cause she believed in. Why would anyone believe that they deserved an explanation for that ?
Did it make national news?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 06:58:55 PM
Did it make national news?

It was in a national newspaper.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2018, 07:07:08 PM
You don't actually think Sky News would have broadcast BL's opinion on the McCann case for the entire nation to see?

That's the ironic thing about it, had she gone on camera to reveal her views, I don't think any footage would have been broadcast at all.

I agree John. For that creep Brunt to tell her a lie that she was being investigated by the police must have cause her alarm.

The facts are: the dossier collaberators were, on behalf of the McCanns, with or without their knowledge, building a case to rid  the uk of any dissent regarding this case. They sent the dossier to SY as they were investigating?  no they were reviewing dearies, SY chucked it as it was irrelevent to what they were doing and said it wa a local matter. LP said no crimes were commited by Brenda.  If Brunt had done what a real good journalist should do, and investigate properly with a non partisan agenda, He would have found this out!  But it was all easy taking his stance that the McCanns were a sure thing for publicity, and loved by millions...

Ooops wrong!

See here.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann#Of_the_public_and_political_reaction
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 07:10:16 PM
It was in a national newspaper.
She or he must have given them a quote then. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 07:13:44 PM
I agree John. For that creep Brunt to tell her a lie that she was being investigated by the police must have cause her alarm.

The facts are: the dossier collaberators were, on behalf of the McCanns, with or without their knowledge, building a case to rid  the uk of any dissent regarding this case. They sent the dossier to SY as they were investigating?  no they were reviewing dearies, SY chucked it as it was irrelevent to what they were doing and said it wa a local matter. LP said no crimes were commited by Brenda.  If Brunt had done what a real good journalist should do, and investigate properly with a non partisan agenda, He would have found this out!  But it was all easy taking his stance that the McCanns were a sure thing for publicity, and loved by millions...

Ooops wrong!

See here.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann#Of_the_public_and_political_reaction
Dissent or vile abuse?  There is a difference.  Have you seen the dossier?  Did it contain all the RL names of everyone on the biggest FB page devoted to “sceptic” views?.  Last time I looked there were about 25,000 members of that page with plenty of dissent going on there, do you know for a fact that they were all included in the dossier? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 31, 2018, 07:19:48 PM
If Sky behaved criminally why weren’t they prosecuted?

I said "possibly" with regard to criminal it depends on the tort. 
I note you attempt to give the tort and infringement of privacy a body swerve....no comment there then?


Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 07:23:34 PM
I said "possibly" with regard to criminal it depends on the tort. Can you not read ?
I note you attempt to give the tort and infringement of privacy a body swerve....no comment there then?
Do you always have to be so rude?  Did Sky receive any sanctions at all from any body at all, was a complaint made to Ofcom, did Brenda’s family sue?  Answers to these questions may be revealing.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 31, 2018, 07:33:19 PM
1)Do you always have to be so rude?  2)Did Sky receive any sanctions at all from any body at all, was a complaint made to Ofcom, did Brenda’s family sue?  Answers to these questions may be revealing.

1)On this site I find it helps.
2) A logical extension to what you are saying is "If no one is sanctioned an offence has not been committed"
That, manifestly, is fatuous. No further comment is necessary on my part.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2018, 07:33:42 PM
I said "possibly" with regard to criminal it depends on the tort. 
I note you attempt to give the tort and infringement of privacy a body swerve....no comment there then?


Indeed Alice. and have you noticed some supporters are obsessed with sceptics,some actually  believe they have the monopoly on right and wrong. I find it very entertaining.  I was very impressed by the dignity of Brendas Family. They did not go all out  to sue every crass dossier writer, or the media, because they knew MONEY could not replace their mother. They could have set up a company,and do promotional tours... but they kept a dignified silence. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 07:36:05 PM
1)On this site I find it helps.
2) A logical extension to what you are saying is "If no one is sanctioned an offence has not been committed"
That, manifestly, is fatuous. No further comment is necessary on my part.
Great, in that case we can say Brenda and others may have committed an offence despite no sanctions being applied.   8((()*/
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 07:37:26 PM

Indeed Alice. and have you noticed some supporters are obsessed with sceptics,some actually  believe they have the monopoly on right and wrong. I find it very entertaining.  I was very impressed by the dignity of Brendas Family. They did not go all out  to sue every crass dossier writer, or the media, because they knew MONEY could not replace their mother. They could have set up a company,and do promotional tours... but they kept a dignified silence.

Really?  Promotional Tours?  Good heavens.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 07:40:53 PM
Great, in that case we can say Brenda and others may have committed an offence despite no sanctions being applied.   8((()*/

Just because the police took no action does not mean a crime wasn't committed...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 07:44:39 PM

Indeed Alice. and have you noticed some supporters are obsessed with sceptics,some actually  believe they have the monopoly on right and wrong. I find it very entertaining.  I was very impressed by the dignity of Brendas Family. They did not go all out  to sue every crass dossier writer, or the media, because they knew MONEY could not replace their mother. They could have set up a company,and do promotional tours... but they kept a dignified silence.
LOL.  Promtional tours about what?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 07:47:36 PM

Indeed Alice. and have you noticed some supporters are obsessed with sceptics,some actually  believe they have the monopoly on right and wrong. I find it very entertaining.  I was very impressed by the dignity of Brendas Family. They did not go all out  to sue every crass dossier writer, or the media, because they knew MONEY could not replace their mother. They could have set up a company,and do promotional tours... but they kept a dignified silence.

More like they knew what their mother had done... And that it was wrong
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 07:48:00 PM
She or he must have given them a quote then.

And ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 07:56:29 PM
I've been door stepped.... And my reaction was defiance...because unlike brenda I had done nothing wrong
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 07:59:26 PM
I've been door stepped.... And my reaction was defiance...because unlike brenda I had done nothing wrong

Why were you doorsteped?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 08:01:28 PM
And ?
Why are you complaining about her being doorstepped then?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 08:02:17 PM
How very ‘street’ of you  @)(++(*
How very mocking of you.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 08:06:40 PM
Why are you complaining about her being doorstepped then?

So in her surprise she says something which the journalist prints and you think that justifies his doorstepping ? What, in your opinion, had she done wrong that she should be afforded such treatment?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 08:09:56 PM
So in her surprise she says something which the journalist prints and you think that justifies his doorstepping ? What, in your opinion, had she done wrong that she should be afforded such treatment?

We would need to know all the details. Did it even happen... Who knows
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2018, 08:12:26 PM
So in her surprise she says something which the journalist prints and you think that justifies his doorstepping ? What, in your opinion, had she done wrong that she should be afforded such treatment?

Its all a ploy to draw attention to poor victim McCanns. I mean if Brenda had killed fluffly lil kittens then yeah I would be really peaved off,big time.  She didn't commit any crime.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 08:15:50 PM
Its all a ploy to draw attention to poor victim McCanns. I mean if Brenda had killed fluffly lil kittens then yeah I would be really peaved off,big time.  She didn't commit any crime.

Online abuse is wrong and you are wrong to support it
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 08:17:54 PM
So in her surprise she says something which the journalist prints and you think that justifies his doorstepping ? What, in your opinion, had she done wrong that she should be afforded such treatment?
What are you on about?  Who said anything about her “doing wrong”?  You don’t have to have “done wrong” to be doorstepped, nor do you have to open your mouth when doorstepped.  What did she say and did it ruin her life?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 08:21:35 PM
Thr only reason brenda has so much support is because some posters here dislike the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2018, 08:31:06 PM
Thr only reason brenda has so much support is because some posters here dislike the mccanns

Really?   Is it that sad?  Poor Brenda.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 08:50:19 PM
Thr only reason brenda has so much support is because some posters here dislike the mccanns

I think you confuse support with sympathy. Members can have sympathy for what happened to her regardless of the McCann case.  I have no time for online abuse or media bullies and Sky News certainly has plenty of that particular creature.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 08:53:26 PM
We would need to know all the details... Not just you biased account.. Did it even happen... Who knows

And why were you doorstepped ? You seem reticent about giving details. Did you engage with the reporter ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 09:05:36 PM
Really?   Is it that sad?  Poor Brenda.

Anyone with a shred of common decency, no matter what their thoughts on the McCanns, would baulk at Brenda’s treatment. It was disproportionate to her ‘crimes’ and in their heart of hearts I’m sure those supporting her treatment know it too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:10:42 PM
I think you confuse support with sympathy. Members can have sympathy for what happened to her regardless of the McCann case.  I have no time for online abuse or media bullies and Sky News certainly has plenty of that particular creature.
simple question...do you condemn the abuse by brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 31, 2018, 09:11:52 PM
Really?   Is it that sad?  Poor Brenda.

No, it’s a load of ****.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 09:13:17 PM
simple question...do you condemn the abuse by brenda

Of course but the punishment was disproportionate.

Now why were you doorstepped ? What had you done wrong ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:13:48 PM
And why were you doorstepped ? You seem reticent about giving details. Did you engage with the reporter ?

a dentist who worked for me had a problem...the sun took up the story...I was asked to comment and expalined taht due to patient confidentiality I couldnt comment...the sun said....Boss ...*** ******.....refused to comment under the headline ...Dentist broke my jaw......which wasnt true
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:15:39 PM
I think you confuse support with sympathy. Members can have sympathy for what happened to her regardless of the McCann case.  I have no time for online abuse or media bullies and Sky News certainly has plenty of that particular creature.

I have far more sympathy for the McCanns...the target of Brendas abuse
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2018, 09:16:34 PM
I think you confuse support with sympathy. Members can have sympathy for what happened to her regardless of the McCann case.  I have no time for online abuse or media bullies and Sky News certainly has plenty of that particular creature.

John, not one sceptic member on this forum has 'supported' what Brenda did or said. To be accused of it shows the desperation to vilify members who do not believe the McCanns by supporters and this is a trait the dossier compilers had...  Unpleasant, and vile tactic. It really shouldn't be tolerated.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:19:43 PM
John, not one sceptic member on this forum has 'supported' what Brenda did or said. To be accused of it shows the desperation to vilify members who do not believe the McCanns by supporters and this is a trait the dossier compilers had...  Unpleasant, and vile tactic. It really shouldn't be tolerated.

Brendas abuse should not be tolerated...and it wasnt...the dossier compilers are blameless..imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 09:23:19 PM
a dentist who worked for me had a problem...the sun took up the story...I was asked to comment and expalined taht due to patient confidentiality I couldnt comment...the sun said....Boss ...*** ******.....refused to comment under the headline ...Dentist broke my jaw......which wasnt true

No such headline seems to exist.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:25:58 PM
Of course but the punishment was disproportionate.

Now why were you doorstepped ? What had you done wrong ?

I had quite a lot of very nasty online abuse after appearing on TV with my wife and children...very nasty ........you tube werent interested in taking the clip down and there was nothing I could do...eventually it disappeared.


thats probably why i feel so strongly about online abuse.....when my children said...why are people being so mean to us
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:27:32 PM
No such headline seems to exist.

It did exist...but i think the dentist involved has had it removed when google offered the right to be forgotten some  ago....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 31, 2018, 09:28:49 PM
Great, in that case we can say Brenda and others may have committed an offence despite no sanctions being applied.   8((()*/

No!
The dossier was passed to the police who stated no offence had been committed.
Even if Brenda did commit an offence your argument is looking a trifle like the law only applies to people with whom you agree.




Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on August 31, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
I had quite a lot of very nasty online abuse after appearing on TV with my wife and children...very nasty ........you tube werent interested in taking the clip down and there was nothing I could do...eventually it disappeared.


thats probably why i feel so strongly about online abuse.....when my children said...why are people being so mean to us

A headline that doesn’t seem to exist and a YouTube video that ‘ disappeared ‘. ’
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:31:31 PM
A headline that doesn’t seem to exist and a YouTube video that ‘ disappeared ‘. ’

lets have your story now....I dont really care if you believe me or not...both are absolutely true...it wasnt abroken jaw it was  a fractured tuberosity....local tv turned up as well and did a piece...there are still press articles online re my private life...one was featured on stephens site but taken down....do you not believe that one too...Ive done several tv pieces
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2018, 09:37:44 PM
A headline that doesn’t seem to exist and a YouTube video that ‘ disappeared ‘. ’

If it did exist it will be in  'The Sun' archives.. google can't wipe newspapers headlines lololololol
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 09:39:48 PM
If it did exist it will be in  'The Sun' archives.. google can't wipe newspapers headlines lololololol

then you will be able to find it...google have removed names from its search engine

Google has launched a service to allow Europeans to ask for personal data to be removed from online search results.

The move comes after a landmark European Union court ruling earlier this month, which gave people the "right to be forgotten".

Links to "irrelevant" and outdated data should be erased on request, it said
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 10:05:33 PM
You really do have no sense of what is acceptable behaviour, do you ?
I don’t think it’s acceptable to make insulting and inaccurate observations like the one above.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 10:14:25 PM
Why are these sceptics so bitter and angry with us supporters?  What IS their problem?  I feel a bit sorry for them tbh, so much anger and hate is not good for the constitution IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 31, 2018, 10:21:45 PM
The general demeanour from the supporters appears to blames BL for her own demise due to her legal tweets.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2018, 10:24:42 PM
Thr only reason brenda has so much support is because some posters here dislike the mccanns

There are two possibilities; support for Brenda or disgust with holier than thou busy bodies. Dislike for the McCanns is irrelevant as they, allegedly, knew nothing about it, despite Hogan-Howes apparent slip of the tongue.I'm in the disgust line in case you're wondering.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 10:25:24 PM
The general demeanour from the supporters appears to blames BL for her own demise due to her legal tweets.
Have you read the last few pages? I have never blamed Brenda for her own demise, I don’t however believe any supporter was to blame, but I do find threads like this provide a much enjoyed opportunity for sceptics to rant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:25:49 PM
The general demeanour from the supporters appears to blames BL for her own demise due to her legal tweets.

Brenda's death was far more to do with other factors in her life...imo...none of our business.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 31, 2018, 10:26:45 PM
Brenda's death was far more to do with other factors in her life...imo...none of our business.

You are very keen to get the thread closed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:28:29 PM
You are very keen to get the thread closed.

I am... out of respect for Brenda...imo ...her death is being used to score points against the dossier complilers and supporters in general....what do you think brendas family would think of this thread...do any sceptics care
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 10:29:57 PM
You are very keen to get the thread closed.
No, let’s keep slagging each other off in Brenda’s name, she’d love that I’m sure.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 10:34:25 PM
simple question...do you condemn the abuse by brenda

I already said I have no time for any online abuse.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:36:32 PM
I already said I have no time for any online abuse.

I actually have sympathy for brenda...she was led on to believe what she was doing was perfectly acceptable.......it wasnt. she had lots of issues in her life that contributed to her sad death
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 10:37:31 PM
Brendas abuse should not be tolerated...and it wasnt...the dossier compilers are blameless..imo

They went too far imo and Sky News certainly did.  It is the police's job to deal with abuse, maybe Brunt and his crew should have doorstepped the Chief Constable if they weren't happy with their response instead of a vulnerable pensioner?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on August 31, 2018, 10:37:52 PM
Basically a bunch of busy bodies cherry picked a load of tweets to portray some people critical of the McCanns in a bad light. It is assumed they took their complaints to twitter who said no, they took their list to the police who said no, then they took their list to the media who said yes please, as has been said, “media interference in this way not only makes the work of the police more difficult, it can potentially damage and destroy the investigation altogether.”.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:39:50 PM
more and more justification for brendas actions...abuse is wrong and should not be tolerated
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:41:10 PM
Basically a bunch of busy bodies cherry picked a load of tweets to portray some people critical of the McCanns in a bad light. It is assumed they took their complaints to twitter who said no, they took their list to the police who said no, then they took their list to the media who said yes please, as has been said, “media interference in this way not only makes the work of the police more difficult, it can potentially damage and destroy the investigation altogether.”.

what investigation..there was none ..if the police had done there job properly ...Brenda may well have still been alive
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 10:41:32 PM
Basically a bunch of busy bodies cherry picked a load of tweets to portray some people critical of the McCanns in a bad light. It is assumed they took their complaints to twitter who said no, they took their list to the police who said no, then they took their list to the media who said yes please, as has been said, “media interference in this way not only makes the work of the police more difficult, it can potentially damage and destroy the investigation altogether.”.
Didn’t you just tell us the investigation by the police was over before the dossier compilers went to the media?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:45:01 PM
They went too far imo and Sky News certainly did.  It is the police's job to deal with abuse, maybe Brunt and his crew should have doorstepped the Chief Constable if they weren't happy with their response instead of a vulnerable pensioner?

perhaps if the police had done their job properly and gone and had a quiet word with brenda...she would still be alive
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 10:48:27 PM
Brenda WAS an online bully, kindly make the case that she was not and we can discuss further.  Bullying is reprehensible and should be stopped.  Kindly make the case that it should be allowed to continue and we can discuss.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 31, 2018, 10:54:00 PM
perhaps if the police had done their job properly and gone and had a quiet word with brenda...she would still be alive

So did you know that the police received the dossier prior to Martin Brunt etc then Davel? You appear to be saying that IMO.
Of course Brenda hadn't broken any laws so I am not sure what the police could have said except a message that they knew who she was.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 10:57:45 PM
So did you know that the police received the dossier prior to Martin Brunt etc then Davel? You appear to be saying that IMO.
Of course Brenda hadn't broken any laws so I am not sure what the police could have said except a message that they knew who she was.

The police have a duty to prevent crime.....the police should have taken the dossier seriously ...they didnt...

They receive the dossier...they speak to brenda an expalin here tweets are abusive .....they speak to the dossier compilers and say they have spoken to brenda.....that is good policing ..imo...and is what SHOULD have happened

the police gave the compilers no option but to go to the press
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 31, 2018, 11:02:41 PM
The police have a duty to prevent crime.....the police should have taken the dossier seriously ...they didnt...

They receive the dossier...they speak to brenda an expalin here tweets are abusive .....they speak to the dossier compilers and say they have spoken to brenda.....that is good policing ..imo...and is what SHOULD have happened

the police gave the compilers no option but to go to the press

But how do you KNOW the dossier went to the police first before going to the media. I haven't seen that stated in any media story as far as I can recall.

Perhaps you can give me a cite on that one, please.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2018, 11:05:38 PM
But how do you KNOW the dossier went to the police first before going to the media. I haven't seen that stated in any media story as far as I can recall.

Perhaps you can give me a cite on that one, please.

I wont give you a cite because I cant be bothered...Im discussing the issues and you are disrupting...do your own research
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 31, 2018, 11:06:54 PM
I wont give you a cite because I cant be bothered...Im discussing the issues and you are disrupting...do your own research

How can asking for a cite be disrupting Davel?  Cites are required by forum rules. Read my signature.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2018, 11:09:40 PM
How can asking for a cite be disrupting Davel?  Cites are required by forum rules. Read my signature.
Faithlilly has already provided a timeline of events surrounding the dossier, but it is possible she made them up. I assumed she was in the know however..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on August 31, 2018, 11:15:12 PM
It is OK I have found my own cite. Which poses another question regarding davel's posts

A spokesman for Scotland Yard said today: 'We can confirm we have received a letter and documentation on 9 September which was passed to officers from Operation Grange [the police review into Madeleine's disappearance].

'They are assessing its contents and consulting with the CPS and the McCann family.'

Detective Inspector Michael Kilkenny of the Metropolitan Police told the campaign group: 'In consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service and the McCann family, the material will now be assessed and decisions made as to what further action, if any, should be undertaken.'


So it appeared that the police were still deciding what action to take (if any) when Brenda was doorstepped by Martin Brunt. So Davel did you get this bit wrong then?

The police have a duty to prevent crime.....the police should have taken the dossier seriously ...they didnt...

They receive the dossier...they speak to brenda an expalin here tweets are abusive .....they speak to the dossier compilers and say they have spoken to brenda.....that is good policing ..imo...and is what SHOULD have happened

the police gave the compilers no option but to go to the press
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2018, 11:38:44 PM
It is OK I have found my own cite. Which poses another question regarding davel's posts

A spokesman for Scotland Yard said today: 'We can confirm we have received a letter and documentation on 9 September which was passed to officers from Operation Grange [the police review into Madeleine's disappearance].

'They are assessing its contents and consulting with the CPS and the McCann family.'

Detective Inspector Michael Kilkenny of the Metropolitan Police told the campaign group: 'In consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service and the McCann family, the material will now be assessed and decisions made as to what further action, if any, should be undertaken.'


So it appeared that the police were still deciding what action to take (if any) when Brenda was doorstepped by Martin Brunt. So Davel did you get this bit wrong then?

The police have a duty to prevent crime.....the police should have taken the dossier seriously ...they didnt...

They receive the dossier...they speak to brenda an expalin here tweets are abusive .....they speak to the dossier compilers and say they have spoken to brenda.....that is good policing ..imo...and is what SHOULD have happened

the police gave the compilers no option but to go to the press



SY passed it on- said they could do nothing as they were reviewing the case- it was passed to LP. I believe the police soon tired of ALL the twits on tw..ter and forum supporters  who were like gouhls seeking to report every single person who  didn't fall at the feet of the McCanns. It was like they were  very precious or something hahahahahaha.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on August 31, 2018, 11:43:12 PM
Brenda WAS an online bully, kindly make the case that she was not and we can discuss further.  Bullying is reprehensible and should be stopped.  Kindly make the case that it should be allowed to continue and we can discuss.

There are thousands of people online who do exactly the same thing each and every day.  The only time this will be stopped is when the social media platforms concerned take appropriate action and outlaw it.  I have a feeling we could be in for a long wait though despite their promises.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 12:28:45 AM
Brenda WAS an online bully, kindly make the case that she was not and we can discuss further.  Bullying is reprehensible and should be stopped.  Kindly make the case that it should be allowed to continue and we can discuss.

She was.
Much like the teenage bullies who subject their victims to online bullying and much of this online bullying has to be dealt with by support staff in schools.
It will be interesting to read the posts of those who  support the case for this type of bullying..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 01, 2018, 12:51:18 AM
If you went to the police after an altercation with a neighbour, do you think they would be satisfied with a record of just what the neighbour said or would they want to know what you said too. IMO most of these tweets should be taken in context of the rough and tumble of debate on twitter and not as a set of statements made in cold blood.

That is an excellent point. Much of the abuse on twitter results from other abusive comments in a continuous series of tit for tat tweets.  Taking isolated posts out of context is a misrepresentation of what was really going on.  The #McCann tag is used to get tweets seen, in most cases the tweet itself is not aimed at Madeleine's parents.  One has to use twitter to properly understand how it works.

Out of interest, did the dossier contain the tweet responses to @sweepyface and others?

How could @sweepyface abuse someone if they weren't even on twitter?  Surely abuse has to be received to constitute abuse?  It could be argued that the abusive comments were retaliatory and aimed at those twitter users who she saw as the opposition.  It is a game after all which thousands play every day.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 01, 2018, 01:49:51 AM
Just because the police took no action does not mean a crime wasn't committed...

I'm sure you have the support of many sceptics on that one.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 02:05:32 AM
Sky News reporter was just doing his job
In view of the public interest in the so-called “trolling” of the McCanns by Twitter users, the news organisation appears to have behaved perfectly properly

By Telegraph View6:25AM BST 07 Oct 2014

The apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland following her unmasking as an alleged abuser on Twitter of the McCann family is a tragedy all round. For her family, the circumstances of her death will compound the loss they must feel. For Mr and Mrs McCann, who have suffered so much since the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it is another ghastly consequence of her disappearance.

Now, though, an attempt is being made to force the dismissal of the Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, who confronted Mrs Leyland about a series of comments made on her anonymous Twitter account. A campaign has begun on the social media site Facebook demanding his sacking. This is unfair. Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories. The Sky report did not identify the village where Mrs Leyland lived and she was referred to only by her Twitter name. Moreover, registration plates on nearby cars were pixelated.

Sky News’s guidelines state: “Any grounds for an investigation that involves significant intrusion into any individual’s privacy must be very strong.” In view of the public interest in the so-called “trolling” of the McCanns by Twitter users, the news organisation appears to have behaved perfectly properly. While the exchanges may turn out to have been a tipping point for Mrs Leyland, no direct link has yet been made between the incident and her sad death.

Mrs Leyland was said to be one of dozens of people – and by no means the worst – to have attacked Kate and Gerry McCann over the internet and often under the cover of anonymity. The police spend huge amounts of time investigating this abuse. In the end, the perpetrators must take responsibility for their own actions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/11143889/Sky-News-reporter-was-just-doing-his-job.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 07:21:24 AM
That is an excellent point. Much of the abuse on twitter results from other abusive comments in a continuous series of tit for tat tweets.  Taking isolated posts out of context is a misrepresentation of what was really going on.  The #McCann tag is used to get tweets seen, in most cases the tweet itself is not aimed at Madeleine's parents.  One has to use twitter to properly understand how it works.

Out of interest, did the dossier contain the tweet responses to @sweepyface and others?

How could @sweepyface abuse someone if they weren't even on twitter?  Surely abuse has to be received to constitute abuse?  It could be argued that the abusive comments were retaliatory and aimed at those twitter users who she saw as the opposition.  It is a game after all which thousands play every day.
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?  IMO yes, IMO abuse is abuse whether the intended recipient sees it or not.  It’s about intent.  Brenda intended to abuse A.. I T......, supported her outing and hoped she’d be in trouble with her employers, even though the person on the receiving end was not AT, she thought it was.  I have no doubt Brena hoped her abuse of the McCanns would get through to them somehow.  It did, and only then IMO did she realise how shameful her actions would seem to the wider public.  If it was all a game and she didn’t really mean it she could have explained this to Brunt when he interviewed her privately but then she would have lost face with her twitter buddies, had he reported this.  I agree she got caught up and swept along in something very unsavoury indeed, but as a grown woman of certain years, it’s a shame she hadn’t developed the wisdom to realise it before it got out of hand.  IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2018, 07:24:57 AM

It seems to be a bit of a roller coaster.  Once on, you can't get off.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 07:26:27 AM
Brenda WAS an online bully, kindly make the case that she was not and we can discuss further.  Bullying is reprehensible and should be stopped.  Kindly make the case that it should be allowed to continue and we can discuss.

“Bully - a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people”

Now point out the weaker people. The supporters she interacted with on twitter? The McCanns who weren’t on twitter?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 07:43:09 AM
“Bully - a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people”

Now point out the weaker people. The supporters she interacted with on twitter? The McCanns who weren’t on twitter?

IMO Brenda persecuted and abused the McCanns... You sem to want to deny reality
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 07:45:31 AM
That is an excellent point. Much of the abuse on twitter results from other abusive comments in a continuous series of tit for tat tweets.  Taking isolated posts out of context is a misrepresentation of what was really going on.  The #McCann tag is used to get tweets seen, in most cases the tweet itself is not aimed at Madeleine's parents.  One has to use twitter to properly understand how it works.

Out of interest, did the dossier contain the tweet responses to @sweepyface and others?

How could @sweepyface abuse someone if they weren't even on twitter?  Surely abuse has to be received to constitute abuse?  It could be argued that the abusive comments were retaliatory and aimed at those twitter users who she saw as the opposition.  It is a game after all which thousands play every day.

So having said abuse is wrong you now, want to justify the abuse by brenda... That is somewhat inconsistent
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 08:07:12 AM
Sky News reporter was just doing his job
In view of the public interest in the so-called “trolling” of the McCanns by Twitter users, the news organisation appears to have behaved perfectly properly

By Telegraph View6:25AM BST 07 Oct 2014

The apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland following her unmasking as an alleged abuser on Twitter of the McCann family is a tragedy all round. For her family, the circumstances of her death will compound the loss they must feel. For Mr and Mrs McCann, who have suffered so much since the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it is another ghastly consequence of her disappearance.

Now, though, an attempt is being made to force the dismissal of the Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, who confronted Mrs Leyland about a series of comments made on her anonymous Twitter account. A campaign has begun on the social media site Facebook demanding his sacking. This is unfair. Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories. The Sky report did not identify the village where Mrs Leyland lived and she was referred to only by her Twitter name. Moreover, registration plates on nearby cars were pixelated.

Sky News’s guidelines state: “Any grounds for an investigation that involves significant intrusion into any individual’s privacy must be very strong.” In view of the public interest in the so-called “trolling” of the McCanns by Twitter users, the news organisation appears to have behaved perfectly properly. While the exchanges may turn out to have been a tipping point for Mrs Leyland, no direct link has yet been made between the incident and her sad death.

Mrs Leyland was said to be one of dozens of people – and by no means the worst – to have attacked Kate and Gerry McCann over the internet and often under the cover of anonymity. The police spend huge amounts of time investigating this abuse. In the end, the perpetrators must take responsibility for their own actions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/11143889/Sky-News-reporter-was-just-doing-his-job.html

So Brunt was just doing his job.... No criticism  if him at all
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2018, 08:11:31 AM
At the time that Sky News visited Mrs Leyland her activities were being examined by the police. At the time the BBC filmed the Cliff Richard story he was being investigated by the police. Neither of them had committed an offense. In both cases the message was the same. The public's attention was being drawn to a police investigation into people who, it transpired, had committed no offense. If the public had the right to know about one of them it had the right to know about the other, and vice versa in my opinion.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 08:20:54 AM
At the time that Sky News visited Mrs Leyland her activities were being examined by the police. At the time the BBC filmed the Cliff Richard story he was being investigated by the police. Neither of them had committed an offense. In both cases the message was the same. The public's attention was being drawn to a police investigation into people who, it transpired, had committed no offense. If the public had the right to know about one of them it had the right to know about the other, and vice versa in my opinion.

Brenda had done what she was accused of... Making abusive tweets.....the sort of abuse brenda, was involved in nneds ti be condemned... Not made excuses for
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 08:29:38 AM
“Bully - a person who hurts, persecutes, or intimidates weaker people”

Now point out the weaker people. The supporters she interacted with on twitter? The McCanns who weren’t on twitter?
Well for a start, the McCann supporters she interacted with on twitter were vastly outnumbered by the pack who abuse them on a regular basis.  Finding out the personal details of, including employment details and physical appearance of your opponent puts hem in a weaker position straight away, so undoubtedly Brenda used both these aspects to bully the twitter user she believed was A.. T.......  Abusing people online who you know cannot respond directly is cowardly and bullying too IMO.  If for example Kate McCannwere on twitter she would be one person being constantly attacked by hundreds.  Are you now attempting to clain Brenda’s behaviour was NOT bullying?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 08:32:27 AM
Well for a start, the McCann supporters she interacted with on twitter were vastly outnumbered by the pack who abuse them on a regular basis.  Finding out the personal details of, including employment details and physical appearance of your opponent puts hem in a weaker position straight away, so undoubtedly Brenda used both these aspects to bully the twitter user she believed was A.. T........  Abusing people online who you know cannot respond directly is cowardly and bullying too IMO.  If for example Kate McCannwere on twitter she would be one person being constantly attacked by hundreds.  Are you now attempting to clain Brenda’s behaviour was NOT bullying?

Some posters want to show Brenda, did absolutely  nothing wrong... That's not what the police said.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2018, 08:35:42 AM
As it wasn't A.. T....... does that make the abuse okay?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2018, 09:02:51 AM
Who knew there were so many people who condone publicising those whom the police are investigating. I take it they condoned the BBC's publicising the police raid on Cliff Richard;s home too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 09:06:51 AM
Well for a start, the McCann supporters she interacted with on twitter were vastly outnumbered by the pack who abuse them on a regular basis.  Finding out the personal details of, including employment details and physical appearance of your opponent puts hem in a weaker position straight away, so undoubtedly Brenda used both these aspects to bully the twitter user she believed was A..T........  Abusing people online who you know cannot respond directly is cowardly and bullying too IMO.  If for example Kate McCannwere on twitter she would be one person being constantly attacked by hundreds.  Are you now attempting to clain Brenda’s behaviour was NOT bullying?

You need to provide a cite for your first sentence.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 09:08:48 AM
Well for a start, the McCann supporters she interacted with on twitter were vastly outnumbered by the pack who abuse them on a regular basis.  Finding out the personal details of, including employment details and physical appearance of your opponent puts hem in a weaker position straight away, so undoubtedly Brenda used both these aspects to bully the twitter user she believed was A.. T.......  Abusing people online who you know cannot respond directly is cowardly and bullying too IMO.  If for example Kate McCannwere on twitter she would be one person being constantly attacked by hundreds.  Are you now attempting to clain Brenda’s behaviour was NOT bullying?

So supporters bullied Brenda, glad that is settled.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 09:13:23 AM
So supporters bullied Brenda, glad that is settled.



Highlighting only a part of someone's sentence to completely alter its meaning and then adding a glib comment is rather an immature way of posting. IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 09:16:51 AM


Highlighting only a part of someone's sentence to complete alter its meaning and then adding a glib comment is rather an immature way of posting. IMO.

Don’t be ridiculous. That was part of VS’s post it wasn’t dependent on any other part. It was stand alone. Do you deny that BLs details were obtained by the compilers?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
Don’t be ridiculous. That was part of VS’s post it wasn’t dependent on any other part. It was stand alone. Do you deny that BLs details were obtained by the compilers?

I'm not being ridiculous.
VS was referring to Brenda's abuse of a young girl on twitter.
You took only part of the sentence and highlighted it and left the rest of his/her text.Twisted the meaning and added a glib comment.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2018, 09:20:41 AM
Don’t be ridiculous. That was part of VS’s post it wasn’t dependent on any other part. It was stand alone. Do you deny that BLs details were obtained by the compilers?

Were they?  I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 09:45:22 AM
From the legal side ...

Snip
The media lawyer said he had seen “a significant upswing” in online bullying cases.

But criminal prosecution, said Stephens, should be reserved for the most extreme cases.

“It is only a very small minority who are fixated, who take it to the extreme — people who are borderline certifiable,” he argued.

Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has instructed lawyers that messages sent via social media could be a criminal offence if they contain “credible threats of violence” or target an individual in a way that “may constitute harassment or stalking”.

“Grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false” messages could also amount to a crime if a “public interest” case can be made.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


In my opinion all of what has been said above is applicable to the organised gang trolling of the McCanns with Brenda Leyland perhaps falling into the nuisance category ... or maybe not when one considers her physical proximity to them and the allegation made that she often visited their home village as a result of her interest in them.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time. She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/



Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child.

In my opinion the repetition and the choice of victims seen as vulnerable (and few can be more vulnerable than families of the missing) is typical bullying behaviour particularly when it is gang related.
I don't think it is an issue that can be properly addressed by those individuals with normal thought processes such as unaffiliated researchers trying for understanding (maybe Dr Synott or another of his ilk could be informed by threads such as this one?)

Snip
What drove the outpouring of bile about the McCanns by Leyland, a church-going mother-of-two in a sleepy English village, remains a mystery.

However, new research confirms what many victims already know, that online trolls can be a sinister bunch.

A study by Canadian researchers cited in Psychology Today linked trolling to sadism.

“Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun… and the Internet is their playground!” it said.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 09:53:39 AM


Highlighting only a part of someone's sentence to completely alter its meaning and then adding a glib comment is rather an immature way of posting. IMO.

When there is no concrete validation of one's prejudices one has to resort to tactics such as this or 'paraphrasing' what is said into exactly the opposite.  C'est la vie??
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on September 01, 2018, 09:56:28 AM
Don’t be ridiculous. That was part of VS’s post it wasn’t dependent on any other part. It was stand alone. Do you deny that BLs details were obtained by the compilers?

Martin Brunt described how he discovered BL's details.   When he confronted her he didn't use her name.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2018, 10:06:30 AM
From the legal side ...

Snip
The media lawyer said he had seen “a significant upswing” in online bullying cases.

But criminal prosecution, said Stephens, should be reserved for the most extreme cases.

“It is only a very small minority who are fixated, who take it to the extreme — people who are borderline certifiable,” he argued.

Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has instructed lawyers that messages sent via social media could be a criminal offence if they contain “credible threats of violence” or target an individual in a way that “may constitute harassment or stalking”.

“Grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false” messages could also amount to a crime if a “public interest” case can be made.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


In my opinion all of what has been said above is applicable to the organised gang trolling of the McCanns with Brenda Leyland perhaps falling into the nuisance category ... or maybe not when one considers her physical proximity to them and the allegation made that she often visited their home village as a result of her interest in them.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time. She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/



Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child.

In my opinion the repetition and the choice of victims seen as vulnerable (and few can be more vulnerable than families of the missing) is typical bullying behaviour particularly when it is gang related.
I don't think it is an issue that can be properly addressed by those individuals with normal thought processes such as unaffiliated researchers trying for understanding (maybe Dr Synott or another of his ilk could be informed by threads such as this one?)

Snip
What drove the outpouring of bile about the McCanns by Leyland, a church-going mother-of-two in a sleepy English village, remains a mystery.

However, new research confirms what many victims already know, that online trolls can be a sinister bunch.

A study by Canadian researchers cited in Psychology Today linked trolling to sadism.

“Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun… and the Internet is their playground!” it said.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html

Do you have a link to this research please?

snip/
"Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 10:27:57 AM
From the legal side ...

Snip
The media lawyer said he had seen “a significant upswing” in online bullying cases.

But criminal prosecution, said Stephens, should be reserved for the most extreme cases.

“It is only a very small minority who are fixated, who take it to the extreme — people who are borderline certifiable,” he argued.

Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has instructed lawyers that messages sent via social media could be a criminal offence if they contain “credible threats of violence” or target an individual in a way that “may constitute harassment or stalking”.

“Grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false” messages could also amount to a crime if a “public interest” case can be made.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


In my opinion all of what has been said above is applicable to the organised gang trolling of the McCanns with Brenda Leyland perhaps falling into the nuisance category ... or maybe not when one considers her physical proximity to them and the allegation made that she often visited their home village as a result of her interest in them.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time. She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/



Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child.

In my opinion the repetition and the choice of victims seen as vulnerable (and few can be more vulnerable than families of the missing) is typical bullying behaviour particularly when it is gang related.
I don't think it is an issue that can be properly addressed by those individuals with normal thought processes such as unaffiliated researchers trying for understanding (maybe Dr Synott or another of his ilk could be informed by threads such as this one?)

Snip
What drove the outpouring of bile about the McCanns by Leyland, a church-going mother-of-two in a sleepy English village, remains a mystery.

However, new research confirms what many victims already know, that online trolls can be a sinister bunch.

A study by Canadian researchers cited in Psychology Today linked trolling to sadism.

“Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun… and the Internet is their playground!” it said.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


Do you have a link to this research please?

snip/
"Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child."

The link between trolling and sadism is interesting.. Brenda did seem to get, a, massive kick out if her abuse of the McCanns.. Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 01, 2018, 10:31:25 AM
From the legal side ...

Snip
The media lawyer said he had seen “a significant upswing” in online bullying cases.

But criminal prosecution, said Stephens, should be reserved for the most extreme cases.

“It is only a very small minority who are fixated, who take it to the extreme — people who are borderline certifiable,” he argued.

Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has instructed lawyers that messages sent via social media could be a criminal offence if they contain “credible threats of violence” or target an individual in a way that “may constitute harassment or stalking”.

“Grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false” messages could also amount to a crime if a “public interest” case can be made.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


In my opinion all of what has been said above is applicable to the organised gang trolling of the McCanns with Brenda Leyland perhaps falling into the nuisance category ... or maybe not when one considers her physical proximity to them and the allegation made that she often visited their home village as a result of her interest in them.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time. She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/



Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child.

In my opinion the repetition and the choice of victims seen as vulnerable (and few can be more vulnerable than families of the missing) is typical bullying behaviour particularly when it is gang related.
I don't think it is an issue that can be properly addressed by those individuals with normal thought processes such as unaffiliated researchers trying for understanding (maybe Dr Synott or another of his ilk could be informed by threads such as this one?)

Snip
What drove the outpouring of bile about the McCanns by Leyland, a church-going mother-of-two in a sleepy English village, remains a mystery.

However, new research confirms what many victims already know, that online trolls can be a sinister bunch.

A study by Canadian researchers cited in Psychology Today linked trolling to sadism.

“Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun… and the Internet is their playground!” it said.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


Do you have a link to this research please?

snip/
"Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child."

Have to say that I've never come across any such group. No one has ever approached me   8(8-))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 10:48:49 AM
Have to say that I've never come across any such group. No one has ever approached me   8(8-))


Well there are two such groups in my opinion.
The group that do a great deal of "researching", writing letters, sending FOIs and have had meetings and have visited Gerry's workplace and put leaflets through the McCann's neighbour's doors etc.

Then there is the Facebook group who let it be known if any of the family are spotted and share this information.
They spend much time in posting libel, and generally mocking Madeleine's family.

I don't think you would be happy in either group.
And that is intended as a compliment.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 10:51:56 AM
You need to provide a cite for your first sentence.

Seconded. Cite Required.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 10:56:54 AM
From the legal side ...

Snip
The media lawyer said he had seen “a significant upswing” in online bullying cases.

But criminal prosecution, said Stephens, should be reserved for the most extreme cases.

“It is only a very small minority who are fixated, who take it to the extreme — people who are borderline certifiable,” he argued.

Britain’s Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has instructed lawyers that messages sent via social media could be a criminal offence if they contain “credible threats of violence” or target an individual in a way that “may constitute harassment or stalking”.

“Grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or false” messages could also amount to a crime if a “public interest” case can be made.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


In my opinion all of what has been said above is applicable to the organised gang trolling of the McCanns with Brenda Leyland perhaps falling into the nuisance category ... or maybe not when one considers her physical proximity to them and the allegation made that she often visited their home village as a result of her interest in them.

Snip
"When Madeleine first went missing she used to go over to her home village all the time. She used to go to the local pub and the shops telling everyone what she thought about the family. It seemed very odd behaviour."
https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/2629697/exposed-mccann-troll-was-mired-in-loneliness/



Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child.

In my opinion the repetition and the choice of victims seen as vulnerable (and few can be more vulnerable than families of the missing) is typical bullying behaviour particularly when it is gang related.
I don't think it is an issue that can be properly addressed by those individuals with normal thought processes such as unaffiliated researchers trying for understanding (maybe Dr Synott or another of his ilk could be informed by threads such as this one?)

Snip
What drove the outpouring of bile about the McCanns by Leyland, a church-going mother-of-two in a sleepy English village, remains a mystery.

However, new research confirms what many victims already know, that online trolls can be a sinister bunch.

A study by Canadian researchers cited in Psychology Today linked trolling to sadism.

“Both trolls and sadists feel sadistic glee at the distress of others. Sadists just want to have fun… and the Internet is their playground!” it said.
https://mybroadband.co.za/news/technology/111710-the-scourge-of-internet-trolls.html


Do you have a link to this research please?

snip/
"Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child."

I have practically provided a link to the farm my breakfast eggs came from in that post. 

Of course I have a link to support "Brenda Leyland was a cog in the wheel of a far larger organised controlled and controlling group which researchers have associated with the trolling of the parents of a missing child."
Probably even more than one if it comes to that when considering the sum total of the published research and abstracts and I may touch on it in a future post.

In the interim until I have time to accede to your request, I am content to state IN MY OPINION ... but fear not ... I shall come back to your request particularly as I consider you appear to be using a tried and tested deflection technique identified by one of the researchers to ensure salient points are ignored in the twitter slanging match (my words) which ensues.  Interesting.

Tell me though, why does the notion that Brenda was 'a cog in the wheel' concern you so much?  Do you have information she may have been more than or less than that?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 10:58:58 AM
Sky News reporter was just doing his job
In view of the public interest in the so-called “trolling” of the McCanns by Twitter users, the news organisation appears to have behaved perfectly properly

By Telegraph View6:25AM BST 07 Oct 2014

The apparent suicide of Brenda Leyland following her unmasking as an alleged abuser on Twitter of the McCann family is a tragedy all round. For her family, the circumstances of her death will compound the loss they must feel. For Mr and Mrs McCann, who have suffered so much since the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it is another ghastly consequence of her disappearance.

Now, though, an attempt is being made to force the dismissal of the Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, who confronted Mrs Leyland about a series of comments made on her anonymous Twitter account. A campaign has begun on the social media site Facebook demanding his sacking. This is unfair. Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories. The Sky report did not identify the village where Mrs Leyland lived and she was referred to only by her Twitter name. Moreover, registration plates on nearby cars were pixelated.

Sky News’s guidelines state: “Any grounds for an investigation that involves significant intrusion into any individual’s privacy must be very strong.” In view of the public interest in the so-called “trolling” of the McCanns by Twitter users, the news organisation appears to have behaved perfectly properly. While the exchanges may turn out to have been a tipping point for Mrs Leyland, no direct link has yet been made between the incident and her sad death.

Mrs Leyland was said to be one of dozens of people – and by no means the worst – to have attacked Kate and Gerry McCann over the internet and often under the cover of anonymity. The police spend huge amounts of time investigating this abuse. In the end, the perpetrators must take responsibility for their own actions.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/social-media/11143889/Sky-News-reporter-was-just-doing-his-job.html

Thank you for your opinion piece Brietta. So perhaps you would say the BBC were "just doing their job" regarding Cliff Richard.

A sledgehammer to crack a nut is not doing your job IMO.

Why couldn't Brunt have given Brenda Leyland anonymity.  She wasn't breaking the law and hadn't been arrested.
 
Perhaps a shadowed image of her talking, even saying she lived in Leicestershire.  Then I am sure she would have gone away as the supporters wanted but she wouldn't have had her entire life devastated by our media naming her, speaking to her neighbours, watching her house and all the while screaming TROLL at her.

But perhaps you think what Brunt started finished with Brenda Leyland is all OK even though you decry what the media appear to have done to the McCanns in 2007.

A smidgen of hypocrisy from some supporters IMO.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 11:03:11 AM
Martin Brunt described how he discovered BL's details.   When he confronted her he didn't use her name.

Yes he did Lace. He was given the name Brenda Leyland and that she lived in Leicester(shire).   Probably not hard to find her with most of the information required I would imagine.

He didn't discover Brenda, he was handed her on a plate and IMO he thought she was an easy target.  Middle class woman in her 60s who lived alone fairly near the McCanns. He knew she wouldn't argue back and would be upset IMO.

I think if it was he who chose her it was for that reason alone.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 11:04:45 AM
I think posters need to remember that imo it was brendas prolific online abuse that put her in the media, spotlight... I have sympathy  for her as a person but none for her exposure... She brought that on herself
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 11:10:50 AM
I think posters need to remember that it was imo brendas prolific online abuse that put her in the media, spotlight... I have sympathy  for her as a person but none for her exposure... She brought that on herself

Brenda made an average of just over 3 tweets a day I think and I am sure they weren't all on the McCann case.

She made 4625 tweets in 4 years I have read.

Hardly prolific certainly not in the league of yours (or mine) posts on here IMO.

She wasn't just exposed, every aspect of her life was scrutinised and attacked by virtually every media outlet in the UK and many abroad.

I have never seen anything like it before or since.   

And all for just over 4600 tweets.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 12:19:27 PM

Well there are two such groups in my opinion.
The group that do a great deal of "researching", writing letters, sending FOIs and have had meetings and have visited Gerry's workplace and put leaflets through the McCann's neighbour's doors etc.

Then there is the Facebook group who let it be known if any of the family are spotted and share this information.
They spend much time in posting libel, and generally mocking Madeleine's family.

I don't think you would be happy in either group.
And that is intended as a compliment.

You missed the group that compiled dossiers.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 12:22:44 PM
You missed the group that compiled dossiers.

I am not sure you could call members of forums with similar views a "group" they are simply people who are interested in the case and want to discuss it. Perhaps we are all part of a Miscarriage of Justice Forum Group.  There's a thought!

IMO there is only one organised group and that IS the one that systematically compiled the dossier and spent hours and hours searching for the identity of sceptics such as Brenda Leyland. They are (or at least were) very organised IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 01, 2018, 12:22:49 PM
You missed the group that compiled dossiers.

Clearly well organised and highly motivated, that one.  IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 01, 2018, 12:24:34 PM
I am not sure you could call members of forums with similar views a "group" they are simply people who are interested in the case and want to discuss it. Perhaps we are all part of a Miscarriage of Justice Forum Group.  There's a thought!

IMO there is only one organised group and that IS the one that systematically compiled the dossier and spent hours and hours searching for the identity of sceptics such as Brenda Leyland. They are (or at least were) very organised IMO.

They must have got together, either physically or via some internet link in order to compile. Dossiers don't just grow on trees you know   8(0(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 12:25:28 PM
Clearly well organised and highly motivated, that one.  IMO

...and judging by some of the tweets I have seen, gleeful when they thought they had succeeded in hurting someone.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 12:26:28 PM
Thank you for your opinion piece Brietta. So perhaps you would say the BBC were "just doing their job" regarding Cliff Richard.

A sledgehammer to crack a nut is not doing your job IMO.

Why couldn't Brunt have given Brenda Leyland anonymity.  She wasn't breaking the law and hadn't been arrested.
 
Perhaps a shadowed image of her talking, even saying she lived in Leicestershire.  Then I am sure she would have gone away as the supporters wanted but she wouldn't have had her entire life devastated by our media naming her, speaking to her neighbours, watching her house and all the while screaming TROLL at her.

But perhaps you think what Brunt started finished with Brenda Leyland is all OK even though you decry what the media appear to have done to the McCanns in 2007.

A smidgen of hypocrisy from some supporters IMO.

Perhaps you missed ... "Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories. The Sky report did not identify the village where Mrs Leyland lived and she was referred to only by her Twitter name. Moreover, registration plates on nearby cars were pixelated."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 12:28:14 PM
...and judging by some of the tweets I have seen, gleeful when they thought they had succeeded in hurting someone.

And some forum posts elsewhere also Slartibartfast.  Some supporters main reason for being on various forums and some on twitter appears to be simply to abuse and accuse sceptics whilst aiming find out who they are IRL. This is IMO of course.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 12:31:52 PM
Now that every group has been besmirched, perhaps time to call it a day on this thread.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 12:35:37 PM
You missed the group that compiled dossiers.


I believe the question was in relation to those who have hounded the McCann family.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 01, 2018, 12:36:30 PM
So having said abuse is wrong you now, want to justify the abuse by brenda... That is somewhat inconsistent

Please don't misinterpret my comments.  I was explaining how twitter users get caught up in a gang mentality and lose all sense of proportion or right and wrong which they would experience in the real world. Some people manage the experience better than others.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 12:43:02 PM
I am not sure you could call members of forums with similar views a "group" they are simply people who are interested in the case and want to discuss it. Perhaps we are all part of a Miscarriage of Justice Forum Group.  There's a thought!

IMO there is only one organised group and that IS the one that systematically compiled the dossier and spent hours and hours searching for the identity of sceptics such as Brenda Leyland. They are (or at least were) very organised IMO.



So the group who have researched meticulously all details of Madeleine's family, visited the street her family live in, visited Gerry's workplace, study every available photo of her and her family, held meetings to discuss their next steps in their campaign,, organise endless letters and FOI acts and other actions too numerous to mention are not an organised group.?
 (&^&
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 01, 2018, 12:43:59 PM
I think posters need to remember that it was brendas IMO prolific online abuse that put her in the media, spotlight... I have sympathy  for her as a person but none for her exposure... She brought that on herself

And the other hundreds who also took part?  Picking on BL alone was a cowardly act by Sky News IMHO.

When the police detect a relatively minor offence the offender gets a warning, possibly a caution. BL was given no such opportunity to reconsider her activities, she was thrown to the lions like some sacrificial lamb. She was plastered all over national TV for an entire day, no wonder the poor woman gave up her will to live.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 01, 2018, 12:50:34 PM


So the group who have researched meticulously all details of Madeleine's family, visited the street her family live in, visited Gerry's workplace, study every available photo of her and her family, held meetings to discuss their next steps in their campaign,, organise endless letters and FOI acts and other actions too numerous to mention are not an organised group.?
 (&^&

You seem awfully well informed.
I got the impression that it was mostly down to one pathetic old man and a couple of hanger-ons. Not much of a group
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 12:52:00 PM
You seem awfully well informed.
I got the impression that it was down to one pathetic old man and a couple of hanger-ons. Not much of a group


Oh I believe there may be more than a couple of hangers on( researchers)
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 01, 2018, 12:55:04 PM
Now that every group has been besmirched, perhaps time to call it a day on this thread.

It was a sceptic who began the thread and most often than not, IMO, it is a sceptic who brings back to the discussion the name of a woman whose name should be allowed to rest in peace.
Please close the thread.
I really believe all that could be said, had been said.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 01, 2018, 12:56:16 PM
Perhaps you missed ... "Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories. The Sky report did not identify the village where Mrs Leyland lived and she was referred to only by her Twitter name. Moreover, registration plates on nearby cars were pixelated."

I'm quite sure BL would not have given permission for footage of her to be aired on national tv so imo Sky was wrong to show her face, a luxury they seem to afford to most others who don't wish to be identified these days. Maybe they have learned their lesson.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 12:58:43 PM
Please don't misinterpret my comments.  I was explaining how twitter users get caught up in a gang mentality and lose all sense of proportion or right and wrong which they would experience in the real world. Some people manage the experience better than others.

I agree... They lose, all sense of what is right and wrong... That's why those posting abuse need reminding of what is right
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on September 01, 2018, 01:00:21 PM


So the group who have researched meticulously all details of Madeleine's family, visited the street her family live in, visited Gerry's workplace, study every available photo of her and her family, held meetings to discuss their next steps in their campaign,, organise endless letters and FOI acts and other actions too numerous to mention are not an organised group.?
 (&^&

They boasted there were over two thousand of them.   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 01:03:38 PM
I'm quite sure BL would not have given permission for footage of her to be aired on national tv so imo Sky was wrong to show her face, a luxury they seem to afford to most others who don't wish to be identified these days. Maybe they have learned their lesson.

The media doesn't need brendas permission. The press are under pressure to get stories.... I don't see any complaints here Re the McCanns unfair treatment  by the press.... The filming of Kate being verbally abused as she ran the gauntlet for her interview with the PJ... Al this abuse against the McCanns has been triggered by unfair media coverage... Amaral given a platform to spread his version of the facts that have no basis in truth. The reason Brenda and others abused the McCanns was because they believed the lies spread by the media
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 01, 2018, 01:06:44 PM
It was a sceptic who began the thread and most often it is a sceptic who brings back to the discussion the name of a woman whose name should be allowed to rest in peace.
Please close the thread.
I really believe all that could be said, had been said.

Had I not spent several hours yesterday editing the thread I might have agreed with you.  However, I can see that many posters do have a genuine wish to explore and discuss the various issues involved.

Please keep posts constructive, relative and refrain from making personal comments. TY
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 02:47:33 PM
The media doesn't need brendas permission. The press are under pressure to get stories.... I don't see any complaints here Re the McCanns unfair treatment  by the press.... The filming of Kate being verbally abused as she ran the gauntlet for her interview with the PJ... Al this abuse against the McCanns has been triggered by unfair media coverage... Amaral given a platform to spread his version of the facts that have no basis in truth. The reason Brenda and others abused the McCanns was because they believed the lies spread by the media

I have a couple of questions for you and Brietta. Brietta quoted twice "Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories"

If this was true then I wonder why there was such a furore about the story from the media. There were questions raised about Sky's running of the story.

Sky's response to questions

Sky is confident that proper procedures had been followed. The broadcaster is reviewing in the situtation in the wake of Leyland’s death. Sky News’ guidelines state: “Any grounds for an investigation that involves significant intrusion into any individual’s privacy must be very strong. Before we start out we must be certain that any such intrusion is outweighed by the seriousness of the story and the amount of public good that will be delivered by its publication and/or broadcast.”

The detailed guidelines also say: “People who are the subject of reports should not be treated unfairly. Where wrongdoing is alleged, they should be offered an opportunity to respond.

“Where there may be doubt or uncertainty over a legal issue – in the first instance check with the Head of Home News or Head of International News, as appropriate. Remember: if in doubt, do not proceed, broadcast or publish. Always refer upwards.”
[/i]

IMO the parts in italics undermine Sky's decision to broadcast Brenda's face, her house and where she lived.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/06/facebook-sky-news-troll-martin-brunt-brenda-leyland-mccanns

Brietta perhaps you could also explain other "such stories" that have merited such a media onslaught.

Davel the media questions when Kate was interviewed by the PJ were whilst she was a suspect. What do you expect from a free press?

Davel do you also know for sure also that "The reason Brenda and others abused the McCanns was because they believed the lies spread by the media".  Do you not think they are capable of reading and understanding the police files as you claim you have. All it may be is they have reached a different conclusion to your good self.

If you think otherwise perhaps a cite would do.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 01, 2018, 03:58:44 PM
Well for a start, the McCann supporters she interacted with on twitter were vastly outnumbered by the pack who abuse them on a regular basis.  Finding out the personal details of, including employment details and physical appearance of your opponent puts hem in a weaker position straight away, so undoubtedly Brenda used both these aspects to bully the twitter user she believed was A.. T.......  Abusing people online who you know cannot respond directly is cowardly and bullying too IMO.  If for example Kate McCannwere on twitter she would be one person being constantly attacked by hundreds.  Are you now attempting to clain Brenda’s behaviour was NOT bullying?
That's a lot of claims that I cannot remember being evidenced this thread.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 04:30:09 PM
I have a couple of questions for you and Brietta. Brietta quoted twice "Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories"

If this was true then I wonder why there was such a furore about the story from the media. There were questions raised about Sky's running of the story.

Sky's response to questions

Sky is confident that proper procedures had been followed. The broadcaster is reviewing in the situtation in the wake of Leyland’s death. Sky News’ guidelines state: “Any grounds for an investigation that involves significant intrusion into any individual’s privacy must be very strong. Before we start out we must be certain that any such intrusion is outweighed by the seriousness of the story and the amount of public good that will be delivered by its publication and/or broadcast.”

The detailed guidelines also say: “People who are the subject of reports should not be treated unfairly. Where wrongdoing is alleged, they should be offered an opportunity to respond.

“Where there may be doubt or uncertainty over a legal issue – in the first instance check with the Head of Home News or Head of International News, as appropriate. Remember: if in doubt, do not proceed, broadcast or publish. Always refer upwards.”
[/i]

IMO the parts in italics undermine Sky's decision to broadcast Brenda's face, her house and where she lived.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/06/facebook-sky-news-troll-martin-brunt-brenda-leyland-mccanns

Brietta perhaps you could also explain other "such stories" that have merited such a media onslaught.

Davel the media questions when Kate was interviewed by the PJ were whilst she was a suspect. What do you expect from a free press?

Davel do you also know for sure also that "The reason Brenda and others abused the McCanns was because they believed the lies spread by the media".  Do you not think they are capable of reading and understanding the police files as you claim you have. All it may be is they have reached a different conclusion to your good self.

If you think otherwise perhaps a cite would do.

Perhaps a starting point for discussion would be a cite for both parts of your statement: " ... I wonder why there was such a furore about the story from the media. There were questions raised about Sky's running of the story."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on September 01, 2018, 04:48:09 PM
Well for a start, the McCann supporters she interacted with on twitter were vastly outnumbered by the pack who abuse them on a regular basis.  Finding out the personal details of, including employment details and physical appearance of your opponent puts hem in a weaker position straight away, so undoubtedly Brenda used both these aspects to bully the twitter user she believed was A.. T.......  Abusing people online who you know cannot respond directly is cowardly and bullying too IMO.  If for example Kate McCannwere on twitter she would be one person being constantly attacked by hundreds.  Are you now attempting to clain Brenda’s behaviour was NOT bullying?

If Brenda Leyland never received a caution then the supposed bullying is just that, your opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2018, 05:04:57 PM
I have a couple of questions for you and Brietta. Brietta quoted twice "Mr Brunt was just doing his job and, by all accounts, scrupulously followed guidelines for handling such stories"

If this was true then I wonder why there was such a furore about the story from the media. There were questions raised about Sky's running of the story.

Sky's response to questions

Sky is confident that proper procedures had been followed. The broadcaster is reviewing in the situtation in the wake of Leyland’s death. Sky News’ guidelines state: “Any grounds for an investigation that involves significant intrusion into any individual’s privacy must be very strong. Before we start out we must be certain that any such intrusion is outweighed by the seriousness of the story and the amount of public good that will be delivered by its publication and/or broadcast.”

The detailed guidelines also say: “People who are the subject of reports should not be treated unfairly. Where wrongdoing is alleged, they should be offered an opportunity to respond.

“Where there may be doubt or uncertainty over a legal issue – in the first instance check with the Head of Home News or Head of International News, as appropriate. Remember: if in doubt, do not proceed, broadcast or publish. Always refer upwards.”
[/i]

IMO the parts in italics undermine Sky's decision to broadcast Brenda's face, her house and where she lived.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/oct/06/facebook-sky-news-troll-martin-brunt-brenda-leyland-mccanns

Brietta perhaps you could also explain other "such stories" that have merited such a media onslaught.

Davel the media questions when Kate was interviewed by the PJ were whilst she was a suspect. What do you expect from a free press?

Davel do you also know for sure also that "The reason Brenda and others abused the McCanns was because they believed the lies spread by the media".  Do you not think they are capable of reading and understanding the police files as you claim you have. All it may be is they have reached a different conclusion to your good self.

If you think otherwise perhaps a cite would do.

What an interesting[droll?] choice of words.
It has a familiar ring to it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 05:38:37 PM
You need to provide a cite for your first sentence.
Do I really?  Just ask anyone who tweets on #mcann, which side is more prevalent - supporters or sceptics.  Better still, take a look for yourself.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 05:39:48 PM
So supporters bullied Brenda, glad that is settled.
Cite for supporters finding out Brenda’s personal details, place of work and appearance before these were plastered all over the media for everyone to see.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 05:41:35 PM
Do I really?  Just ask anyone who tweets on #mcann, which side is more prevalent - supporters or sceptics.  Better still, take a look for yourself.

I have had a few looks on there and found that most of the supporters I have seen tend to leave their bile off #mccann and just post to nasty comments to each other about sceptics and of course attack sceptics directly.

This is IMO from what I have seen.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 05:49:00 PM
If Brenda Leyland never received a caution then the supposed bullying is just that, your opinion.
So you can only be referred to as a bully if you get a police caution, is that your view?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 05:51:21 PM
I have had a few looks on there and found that most of the supporters I have seen tend to leave their bile off #mccann and just post to nasty comments to each other about sceptics and of course attack sceptics directly.

This is IMO from what I have seen.
That was not the question posed, or the reason the cite was demanded.  Sceptics or supporters - who are and were more numerous on the #McCann tag that Brenda favoured?  A simple question, with a very simple answer.  Sceptics - massively.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 01, 2018, 05:53:02 PM
Does it continue, or isit all in the past ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 05:55:02 PM
Does it continue, or isit all in the past ?
It does believe it or not - all the top tweets on that tag are by sceptics, and concern ancient history that have been said a billion times before.  The dedication involved in repeating one’s mantras on a daily, if not hourly basis is really quite staggering.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 05:55:58 PM
If Brenda Leyland never received a caution then the supposed bullying is just that, your opinion.

So she hadn't been cleared or declared innocent
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 01, 2018, 06:14:44 PM
It does believe it or not - all the top tweets on that tag are by sceptics, and concern ancient history that have been said a billion times before.  The dedication involved in repeating one’s mantras on a daily, if not hourly basis is really quite staggering.


Indeed, I've noticed that  regularly on here
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 06:31:11 PM

Indeed, I've noticed that  regularly on here
I had a tenner bet with myself that you’d come back with that reply.  Predictabubble!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on September 01, 2018, 06:37:42 PM
So you can only be referred to as a bully if you get a police caution, is that your view?


My view in irrelevant along with everyone else's,but my moral compass doesn't allow itself to be offended on behalf of others.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2018, 06:45:28 PM

My view in irrelevant along with everyone else's,but my moral compass doesn't allow itself to be offended on behalf of others.

I'm not offended on behalf of others I'm offended by the likes of brenda making abusive comments and thinking it's OK...
I'm actually quite glad she was named and shamed... I think that's what her type deserve
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 06:46:03 PM

My view in irrelevant along with everyone else's,but my moral compass doesn't allow itself to be offended on behalf of others.
Oh the absolute joyous irony of that comment of page 77 of the “I’m so deeply offended by the behaviour of Martin Brunt and the dossier compilers” thread.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 09:55:38 PM
That was not the question posed, or the reason the cite was demanded.  Sceptics or supporters - who are and were more numerous on the #McCann tag that Brenda favoured?  A simple question, with a very simple answer.  Sceptics - massively.

To be honest I can't see that you can still make that claim without proof. How many years back are you making that claim for.

Please provide a cite for "Sceptics or supporters - who are and were more numerous on the #McCann tag that Brenda favoured?  A simple question, with a very simple answer.  Sceptics - massively."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 09:58:14 PM
I'm not offended on behalf of others I'm offended by the likes of brenda making abusive comments and thinking it's OK...
I'm actually quite glad she was named and shamed... I think that's what her type deserve

What "type" is that Davel?  Do you know whether she truly believed in what she was posting (even about AT - and I disagree with that). If she believed in what she was saying who are you to decry that?

Do you think that Brunt and others in the media had the right to ruin her life for 4000 + tweets.

Is life so cheap to you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 10:17:09 PM
They boasted there were over two thousand of them.

I think I know the forum that you refer to but was Brenda a member of that forum, otherwise it is irrelevant IMO.

Brenda was not a member of any organisation as far as I am aware. I am not being organised as I am sure most on here are not. We are simply speaking our own mind on the subject.

I see organisation on the side of some supporters in the creation of various blogs and the dossier itself of course.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 10:22:58 PM
Brenda was identified by a group of supporters (and I mean a group), her home address etc was logged and her identity was even discussed on twitter.  This was all prior to Martin Brunt's expose.

Her details (name and county) were then passed to the media including Martin Brunt who it would appear chose her as a soft target. Possibly because she was a vulnerable middle class elderly lady who lived alone in the same county as the McCanns did.  For him it would make more of a shock media target and impact for his programme, this without thinking of the actual effect his and others actions would actually have on Brenda.

Had he chosen a working class male he would probably have had a mouthful of abuse and a punch in the face. So he chose Brenda Leyland and now she is dead.

Martin Brunt did not "find" Brenda he was handed her identity on a plate.

Please stop saying otherwise as it is simply not true.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 10:32:54 PM
Brenda was identified by a group of supporters (and I mean a group), her home address etc was logged and her identity was even discussed on twitter.  This was all prior to Martin Brunt's expose.

Her details (name and county) were then passed to the media including Martin Brunt who it would appear chose her as a soft target. Possibly because she was a vulnerable middle class elderly lady who lived alone in the same county as the McCanns did.  For him it would make more of a shock media target and impact for his programme, this without thinking of the actual effect his and others actions would actually have on Brenda.

Had he chosen a working class male he would probably have had a mouthful of abuse and a punch in the face. So he chose Brenda Leyland and now she is dead.

Martin Brunt did not "find" Brenda he was handed her identity on a plate.

Please stop saying otherwise as it is simply not true.

You are making unsubstantiated statements and stating opinion without caveat in this post ... you are going to have to sort those deficiencies out ASAP or I will have to delete and John can make the decision whether or not to reinstate your post.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 10:35:42 PM
To be honest I can't see that you can still make that claim without proof. How many years back are you making that claim for.

Please provide a cite for "Sceptics or supporters - who are and were more numerous on the #McCann tag that Brenda favoured?  A simple question, with a very simple answer.  Sceptics - massively."
The cite is the #McCann tag.  It’s there for all to see.  What sort of tweets predominate on that tag?  What are the most popular tweets with the most likes and retweets? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2018, 10:36:11 PM
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/section-eight-privacy
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 10:36:56 PM
You are making unsubstantiated statements and stating opinion without caveat in this post ... you are going to have to sort those deficiencies out ASAP or I will have to delete and John can make the decision whether or not to reinstate your post.

Some of the above I can substatiate Brietta. The rest is probably opinion.

Brenda was named by supporters and discussed on twitter prior to the dossier being shown by Brunt. This included her name and county of residence.

Otherwise I think I have shown it was my opinion eg using words like "it would appear" and "possibly"

I stand by Martin Brunt did not find Brenda he was handed her on a plate. He was.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 10:38:09 PM
Brenda was identified by a group of supporters (and I mean a group), her home address etc was logged and her identity was even discussed on twitter.  This was all prior to Martin Brunt's expose.

Her details (name and county) were then passed to the media including Martin Brunt who it would appear chose her as a soft target. Possibly because she was a vulnerable middle class elderly lady who lived alone in the same county as the McCanns did.  For him it would make more of a shock media target and impact for his programme, this without thinking of the actual effect his and others actions would actually have on Brenda.

Had he chosen a working class male he would probably have had a mouthful of abuse and a punch in the face. So he chose Brenda Leyland and now she is dead.

Martin Brunt did not "find" Brenda he was handed her identity on a plate.

Please stop saying otherwise as it is simply not true.
Plenty of cites needed there. 

I recall an uncouth male oik being doorstepped and made front page news about his hatred of the McCanns but I don’t recall any punches being thrown.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 10:39:20 PM
Some of the above I can substatiate Brietta. The rest is probably opinion.

Brenda was named by supporters and discussed on twitter prior to the dossier being shown by Brunt. This included her name and county of residence.

Otherwise I think I have shown it was my opinion eg using words like "it would appear" and "possibly"

I stand by Martin Brunt did not find Brenda he was handed her on a plate. He was.
Can you please substantiate this claim with cites, thanks.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 10:45:14 PM
Plenty of cites needed there. 

I recall an uncouth male oik being doorstepped and made front page news about his hatred of the McCanns but I don’t recall any punches being thrown.

I said probably not definitely Vertigo Swirl.

OK about cites

How about http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sl7pm3  - I have seen images of these tweets and they are genuine IMO.

I have already given a cite TWICE that Martin Brunt was given Brenda Leyland's name and Leicester (shire) as being her address.  Supporters on here keep saying that Martin Brunt found out her identity. He did not he was given it. If I said your name was ..... and you lived in .... and gave that to a reporter. If they they doorstepped you would they have found you or been given your identity.

I still stand by that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2018, 10:54:22 PM
"She{Brenda Leyland] would spend entire mornings or evenings conversing with other sceptics, arguing with McCann supporters, or just spouting her views on the latest angle to the case".

How droll   *%87.   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 10:59:44 PM
It does believe it or not - all the top tweets on that tag are by sceptics, and concern ancient history that have been said a billion times before.  The dedication involved in repeating one’s mantras on a daily, if not hourly basis is really quite staggering.

Priceless.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:04:00 PM
Priceless.
Are you hope to get a baker’s dozen for this one?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 11:05:19 PM
I said probably not definitely Vertigo Swirl.

OK about cites

How about http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sl7pm3  - I have seen images of these tweets and they are genuine IMO.

I have already given a cite TWICE that Martin Brunt was given Brenda Leyland's name and Leicester (shire) as being her address.  Supporters on here keep saying that Martin Brunt found out her identity. He did not he was given it. If I said your name was ..... and you lived in .... and gave that to a reporter. If they they doorstepped you would they have found you or been given your identity.

I still stand by that.

Scary. The bile on your link towards BL.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 11:06:48 PM
Are you hope to get a baker’s dozen for this one?

Jus a comment based on a bit of research I did on posters on this forum from 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 11:09:46 PM
Scary. The bile on your link towards BL.

And of course all of this was before her information was passed onto the media IMO. This gives an indication of what Brenda Leyland was dealing with on twitter. No wonder some of her posts come across as vitriolic if she was trying to discuss the case with such as these.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:16:52 PM
I said probably not definitely Vertigo Swirl.

OK about cites

How about http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sl7pm3  - I have seen images of these tweets and they are genuine IMO.

I have already given a cite TWICE that Martin Brunt was given Brenda Leyland's name and Leicester (shire) as being her address.  Supporters on here keep saying that Martin Brunt found out her identity. He did not he was given it. If I said your name was ..... and you lived in .... and gave that to a reporter. If they they doorstepped you would they have found you or been given your identity.

I still stand by that.
Point taken.  A most unedifying bullying set of tweets on both sides I agree, though I’d not seen those before I don’t think.  Why do people lose all sense of propriety on twitter? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 01, 2018, 11:19:15 PM
And of course all of this was before her information was passed onto the media IMO. This gives an indication of what Brenda Leyland was dealing with on twitter. No wonder some of her posts come across as vitriolic if she was trying to discuss the case with such as these.

Do you also have copies of the tweets from which Brenda (incorrectly) identified a certain poster as being the nanny Amy T?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:19:42 PM
Jus a comment based on a bit of research I did on posters on this forum from 5 years ago.
Would you care to elucidate, because it seems to me you are once again insinuating that I am a hypocrite or lacking in self awarenes.  Is my description of what appears on the #McCann tag incorrect then, because if it is please explain why.

PS”research on posters” - what, like a dossier or something?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 11:23:01 PM
Point taken.  A most unedifying bullying set of tweets on both sides I agree, though I’d not seen those before I don’t think.  Why do people lose all sense of propriety on twitter?

But now you will agree that twitter is not for the faint hearted and also that Brenda was "outed" by supporters prior to Martin Brunt's involvement and my other cite (shown twice before here) shows that Brunt was given Brenda's identity so he had the easy bit....doorstep her IMO.

Why on earth anyone would join the twitter mob on either side I have no idea. It seems to be madness with no chance of discussion possible and only abuse reigning supreme.  I read occasionally as I have said but who wants to get into that. Thankfully I joined this forum.

Brenda's tweets though need to be read in that context as they appear to have been made in the cut and thrust of the twitter storm.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 01, 2018, 11:33:03 PM
Do you also have copies of the tweets from which Brenda (incorrectly) identified a certain poster as being the nanny Amy T?
I have already given a link to Brenda Leylands tweets. I think it was buzzfeed. I have already also said several times that I disagreed with what Brenda did regarding AT and I still believe that what happened to Brenda far outreached what she had done. Even a police visit would have been better than the mass media besmirching with TROLL everywhere simply for tweeting.

I am sure a convicted murderer would have caused significantly more harm and received less media coverage than middle class Brenda Leyland did simply for tweeting on the McCann case.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 11:34:58 PM
Would you care to elucidate, because it seems to me you are once again insinuating that I am a hypocrite or lacking in self awarenes.  Is my description of what appears on the #McCann tag incorrect then, because if it is please explain why.

PS”research on posters” - what, like a dossier or something?

Sure, if you look at posts from 5 years ago from this forum, you find vitually identical posts to ones posted by the same posters today. Hence priceless.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 11:37:05 PM
To be honest I can't see that you can still make that claim without proof. How many years back are you making that claim for.

Please provide a cite for "Sceptics or supporters - who are and were more numerous on the #McCann tag that Brenda favoured?  A simple question, with a very simple answer.  Sceptics - massively."

You appear to have some firm preconceived ideas regarding the reality of the situation regarding the trolling of the McCann family using the vehicle of social media.

There was a bit of reaction in other places at the news that academics from Huddersfield were conducting a study which would throw some light on how twitter was being abused to abuse this particular family,

I find it extraordinary that such a situation was not only possible but that people had gone out of their way to pass their time doing something so evil in the first place but that it had been going on without let for at that time more than eight years.  More than eleven now.  The mind boggles at the inhumanity of that and I really don't see how it is possible to try to justify what has been done and what continues to be done to a family who have already suffered the unbearable pain of not knowing what has happened to their daughter.

The research by Dr Synott's team revealed ...
Snip
The sheer volume of tweets by the anti-McCann group – and by supporters of Madeleine’s parents – meant that it would be an excellent case study.  A sample of 400 McCann-related tweets obtained from 37 user accounts and containing a total of 7,600 words was analysed by the research team.  The article describing the project contains samples of the abusive, often illiterate language used by trolls.

It was found that “the insults and abuse levelled at both the McCanns and the pro-McCann users were constant, repetitive, and in clear violation of Twitter policies, though user accounts were rarely suspended”.‌
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A key discovery of the research conducted by Dr Synnott, his Huddersfield colleague Dr Maria Ioannou and postgraduate student Andria Coulias, is that far from operating in isolation – as has usually been argued – trolls form “anti-social networks” that reinforce their behaviour.  Also, media reports that condemn the trolls’ actions have the effect of “showering them with the very attention they appear to covet”.
http://news-archive.hud.ac.uk/news/2017/february/exploringtheworldofthemadeleinemccanntrolls.php


So there you have it from the McCann research based in academia ... research not opinion.  The most horrible of which was the stated conclusion ... " ... that “the damaging impact the McCann trolls’ behaviour has had on those victimised” makes necessary “the continuation of research exploiting the ways in which aggressive forms of trolling materialise, so that we might consequently establish ways in which to effectively deal with them”.

The victims are the McCann family two of whom are Madeleine's siblings.  Who could possibly be proud of deliberately damaging children.

I believe it has been claimed on this thread that Brenda was not part of a group ... the Huddersfield research suggests otherwise.


Unless stated otherwise content is my informed opinion.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 11:42:29 PM
Quote
The McCann group was the most obvious place for us to start.  Stage two, which is currently in development, will be an analysis of the Pro-McCann group, to explore any differences or similarities between them.”

Maybe you have access to stage 2?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:44:01 PM
Sure, if you look at posts from 5 years ago from this forum, you find vitually identical posts to ones posted by the same posters today. Hence priceless.
And if you look on twitter you will find the same. so what precisely do you find “priceless” about what I wrote?  Am I someone who dedicatedly trots out the same mantras on a daily if not hourly basis, in your view? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 01, 2018, 11:49:14 PM
I have already given a link to Brenda Leylands tweets. I think it was buzzfeed. I have already also said several times that I disagreed with what Brenda did regarding AT and I still believe that what happened to Brenda far outreached what she had done. Even a police visit would have been better than the mass media besmirching with TROLL everywhere simply for tweeting.

I am sure a convicted murderer would have caused significantly more harm and received less media coverage than middle class Brenda Leyland did simply for tweeting on the McCann case.

Do you consider the media coverage was excessive when compared to the precedent of the Sally Bercow/Lord McAlpine twitter affair, which related to one specific tweet? Do you consider she was "lucky" to not be legally pursued by the McCanns at the time?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2018, 11:50:07 PM
And if you look on twitter you will find the same. so what precisely do you find “priceless” about what I wrote?  Am I someone who dedicatedly trots out the same mantras on a daily if not hourly basis, in your view?

Why, do you think you do?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:50:39 PM
Maybe you have access to stage 2?
Rather than wait for stage 2, why don’t you publish your own research which was presumably done on McCann supporters rather than sceptics?  Or was it for private use only? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:51:06 PM
Why, do you think you do?
Deflection.  Can you give a straight answer or not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2018, 11:55:12 PM
Am I alone in finding it a bit creepy that a moderator of this form has admitted to “researching” members of this forum over the last 5 years?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2018, 11:59:16 PM
Some of the above I can substatiate Brietta. The rest is probably opinion.

Brenda was named by supporters and discussed on twitter prior to the dossier being shown by Brunt. This included her name and county of residence.

Otherwise I think I have shown it was my opinion eg using words like "it would appear" and "possibly"

I stand by Martin Brunt did not find Brenda he was handed her on a plate. He was.

Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!


You are giving me problems with this ... I am not happy at all with your response ... but I am probably going to have to leave it for John to fix because it has all moved on from where we were.

Unfortunately it appears your signature is just for show since in my opinion you have failed to implement it on a few occasions now.
Perhaps I will steal it from you ... because I do intend to implement it immediately in future without giving a period of grace for amendment.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 02, 2018, 12:03:08 AM
Am I alone in finding it a bit creepy that a moderator of this form has admitted to “researching” members of this forum over the last 5 years?

No, you're not alone; but it's quite well-known on twitter that email addresses & personal info are harvested by certain individuals for some undefined purpose. On this forum, however, I would expect an admission by a Mod to have "researched" fellow posters to attract serious punishment from the hierarchy.
IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 01:14:00 AM
No, you're not alone; but it's quite well-known on twitter that email addresses & personal info are harvested by certain individuals for some undefined purpose. On this forum, however, I would expect an admission by a Mod to have "researched" fellow posters to attract serious punishment from the hierarchy.
IMO.

I find this admission most worrying and now have serious concerns about this "research".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 02, 2018, 01:48:11 AM
I find this admission most worrying and now have serious concerns about this "research".

I really think it was just ill advised bluster; there is no way a moderator could access any personal information. 

When a comment is reported we can see the member's email address, and that is it.  I opened another account exclusively for use on the forum and I think most members do that.

I think what was meant in the original post was that previous threads and posts have been trawled through and I doubt if even that.

John has given reassurance in the past that confidentiality cannot be breached ~ as a mod I can see a little more behind the scenes than other members ~ and as a senior mod I can see slightly more than Slarti can, and I can reassure everyone that security of data is as tight as can be.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 06:57:10 AM
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!
[/co
You are giving me problems with this ... I am not happy at all with your response ... but I am probably going to have to leave it for John to fix because it has all moved on from where we were.

Unfortunately it appears your signature is just for show since in my opinion you have failed to implement it on a few occasions now.
Perhaps I will steal it from you ... because I do intend to implement it immediately in future without giving a period of grace for amendment.

Everyone asked to provide a cite should do so, but they don't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 07:06:57 AM
No, you're not alone; but it's quite well-known on twitter that email addresses & personal info are harvested by certain individuals for some undefined purpose. On this forum, however, I would expect an admission by a Mod to have "researched" fellow posters to attract serious punishment from the hierarchy.
IMO.

Any member can see old posts;

"Sure, if you look at posts from 5 years ago from this forum, you find vitually identical posts to ones posted by the same posters today. Hence priceless."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10052.msg484899#msg484899
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2018, 07:49:28 AM
Any member can see old posts;

"Sure, if you look at posts from 5 years ago from this forum, you find vitually identical posts to ones posted by the same posters today. Hence priceless."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10052.msg484899#msg484899

Exactly. Looking at progressively older and older posts from someone you are debating with to find contradictions and admissions is fairly common by some posters and sometimes you have to play them at their own game.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 07:58:33 AM
A huge amount of work was done by a site named 'McCannhateexposed', which seemed to appear in 2012. It was viewable until early 2014 but is now member's only.

Looking at it on wayback there are lists of names who, they assert, are part of a 'Hate Campaign' against the Canns. Some of the people listed have always used their own names, such as Tony Bennett and Pat Brown. Others who posted anonymously had their real names listed with their usernames.

I don't understand why anyone would put so much time and effort into gathering such a lot of information about others. If the intention was to inform why did it go private in 2014?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 08:23:06 AM
Exactly. Looking at progressively older and older posts from someone you are debating with to find contradictions and admissions is fairly common by some posters and sometimes you have to play them at their own game.
You have yet to respond to my question.  I think it’s bad form of a moderator to put down another’s post with a single word, implying that they are some sort of hypocrite or fool without then following it up when challenged to provide evidence of this alleged foolishness or hypocrisy. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 08:34:17 AM
Exactly. Looking at progressively older and older posts from someone you are debating with to find contradictions and admissions is fairly common by some posters and sometimes you have to play them at their own game.
That is not the same as what I was talking about and I think you know it.  I am talking about individuals who tweet more or less  the same messages on a regular, sometimes more than daily, basis year in year out, hateful propaganda whose sole intent seems to be to encourage other tweeters to believe the McCanns are money grabbing, callous, body disposing liars with murderous and paedophile tendencies.  Just one example would be the nauseating repitition of certain sections of the Gaspar statement.  They appear day in, day out, sometimes tweeted by individuals who have appropriated the Gaspar name for that purpose.  Now, does that sort of thing go on here, because if it has I must have missed it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on September 02, 2018, 08:42:49 AM
That is not the same as what I was talking about and I think you know it.  I am talking about individuals who tweet more or less  the same messages on a regular, sometimes more than daily, basis year in year out, hateful propaganda whose sole intent seems to be to encourage other tweeters to believe the McCanns are money grabbing, callous, body disposing liars with murderous and paedophile tendencies.  Just one example would be the nauseating repitition of certain sections of the Gaspar statement.  They appear day in, day out, sometimes tweeted by individuals who have appropriated the Gaspar name for that purpose.  Now, does that sort of thing go on here, because if it has I must have missed it.

Are those the ones against Martin Grime you refer to?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 02, 2018, 09:05:37 AM
The thread title is ... 'Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?'

Please make the attempt in your posts to fit some mention of that topic somewhere into the argument ... and please desist from from off topic argument which is personal in nature.  Thank you
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 09:22:48 AM
Are those the ones against Martin Grime you refer to?
What, users appropriating thr name of Gaspar and the like tweeting against Martin Grime?  That’s a new one on me.  Perhaps you could post some examples?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2018, 09:31:18 AM
I really think it was just ill advised bluster; there is no way a moderator could access any personal information. 

When a comment is reported we can see the member's email address, and that is it.  I opened another account exclusively for use on the forum and I think most members do that.

I think what was meant in the original post was that previous threads and posts have been trawled through and I doubt if even that.

John has given reassurance in the past that confidentiality cannot be breached ~ as a mod I can see a little more behind the scenes than other members ~ and as a senior mod I can see slightly more than Slarti can, and I can reassure everyone that security of data is as tight as can be.

More a misunderstanding by the reader. You have to wonder why some people’s first thought was of underhand purposes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 09:36:28 AM
More a misunderstanding by the reader. You have to wonder why some people’s first thought was of underhand purposes.



Par for the course.
Suspicion breeds suspicion.
You and others have expressed suspicion of me being involved in the dossier in spite of my assurances to you and others that I wasn't.
As I say suspicion breeds suspicion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 02, 2018, 09:45:33 AM
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

From this moment onward, posts making significant claims which are not backed up by a cite will be removed.

Moderators and Editors take note!


You are giving me problems with this ... I am not happy at all with your response ... but I am probably going to have to leave it for John to fix because it has all moved on from where we were.

Unfortunately it appears your signature is just for show since in my opinion you have failed to implement it on a few occasions now.
Perhaps I will steal it from you ... because I do intend to implement it immediately in future without giving a period of grace for amendment.
Breitta I have already given two cites showing the supporters found Brenda and that Brunt did not as he was given her name and that she lived in Leicester (shire).

What more do you want? I suggest you read back through my posts before pontificating on whether you have to take further steps against me.  You have given me 9 hours to respond (most of which I was asleep).
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 09:52:53 AM
More a misunderstanding by the reader. You have to wonder why some people’s first thought was of underhand purposes.
When you talk of researching members of a forum upon which you moderate it sounds a bit creepy that’s all.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2018, 10:08:33 AM
More a misunderstanding by the reader. You have to wonder why some people’s first thought was of underhand purposes.

Probably because of the use of the word research... Looking back at a, few posts is not most people's understanding of the word
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 02, 2018, 10:20:42 AM
Yet when I did it to highlight an inconsistency by gunit you told me I was breaking forum rules

No davel IMO what you did was claim cite, after cite and after 3 attempts having to change the details in your requests for cite, you finally found something that a cite was appropriate. Unfortunately G-Unit had already discussed that discrepancy 6 months ago. 

This is from memory posted around a week or so ago.

Davel you still owe me several cites. How about the one for Centre Parks not having childcare facilities if you want to be picky.

No kids clubs at centre parcs... I've been ti both... I've taken young children to centre parcs and to places like ocean club... Have you... There is no comparison to how tired children get...I've, seen young children that are impossible to wake up they are that tired... That is, a fact not opinion


So I'm speaking from my experience  with children...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 10:41:43 AM
When you talk of researching members of a forum upon which you moderate it sounds a bit creepy that’s all.

Don't you find it creepy when whole sites are devoted to researching and recording what others post on the internet? All those hours devoted to reading blogs, Facebook. forums and Twitter in order to find and copy posts which they don't like. I find that creepy and obsessive. There must have been a purpose, don't you think?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 02, 2018, 10:44:55 AM
Don't you find it creepy when whole sites are devoted to researching and recording what others post on the internet? All those hours devoted to reading blogs, Facebook. forums and Twitter in order to find and copy posts which they don't like. I find that creepy and obsessive. There must have been a purpose, don't you think?

Yes of course and we know what the purpose of one group of people who must have spent years constantly scouring the web for possible posts to save and sometimes share including that persons identity was unfortunately.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 11:21:55 AM
Yet when I did it to highlight an inconsistency by gunit you told me I was breaking forum rules

Someone said that people on Twitter repeat the same things day after day for years. Slartibartfast pointed out that posters here do the same and to illustrate his point he said some are still repeating what they said five years ago. How many years have you been saying 'sceptics don't understand the evidence' for example?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on September 02, 2018, 11:23:09 AM
Don't you find it creepy when whole sites are devoted to researching and recording what others post on the internet? All those hours devoted to reading blogs, Facebook. forums and Twitter in order to find and copy posts which they don't like. I find that creepy and obsessive. There must have been a purpose, don't you think?

I find a particular site creepy they call themselves 'researchers'.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 11:29:22 AM
I find a particular site creepy they call themselves 'researchers'.

Indeed.
"Researching" which has involved visiting the street where Madeleine lived, the little farm where are mother took her, visiting Gerry's workplace.
"Researching" including details of family members, even contacting the employer of Madeleine's aunt.
Now that is creepy and obsessive.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on September 02, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
Indeed.
"Researching" which has involved visiting the street where Madeleine lived, the little farm where are mother took her, visiting Gerry's workplace.
"Researching" including details of family members, even contacting the employer of Madeleine's aunt.
Now that is creepy and obsessive.
Not creepy enough to not visit it seems though.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 02, 2018, 12:00:34 PM
Indeed.
"Researching" which has involved visiting the street where Madeleine lived, the little farm where are mother took her, visiting Gerry's workplace.
"Researching" including details of family members, even contacting the employer of Madeleine's aunt.
Now that is creepy and obsessive.

Do you have cites for these claims Erngath?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on September 02, 2018, 12:01:19 PM
Not creepy enough to not visit it seems though.

Are you never curious as to what goes on in sites?    I go back as I can't believe what they are saying some of it is ridiculous other things quite weird.    A lot of what they say has been proven to be nonsense,  but there you go some just like to go over and over things even when they are proven wrong.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on September 02, 2018, 12:03:33 PM
Are you never curious as to what goes on in sites?    I go back as I can't believe what they are saying some of this is ridiculous other quite weird.    A lot of what they say has been proven to be nonsense,  but there you go some just like to go over and over things even when they are proven wrong.


Not in the least,one site is enough.I'm on a general chat apart from here,that'll do,it was from there some one mentioned here.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 01:07:11 PM
Indeed.
"Researching" which has involved visiting the street where Madeleine lived, the little farm where are mother took her, visiting Gerry's workplace.
"Researching" including details of family members, even contacting the employer of Madeleine's aunt.
Now that is creepy and obsessive.

I haven't seen the evidence of that, but I expect you have. They did have a stated purpose, I believe, which was to understand the case. What was the purpose of the site which seemed to be gathering information just for the sake of it, I wonder.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 06:35:47 PM
Don't you find it creepy when whole sites are devoted to researching and recording what others post on the internet? All those hours devoted to reading blogs, Facebook. forums and Twitter in order to find and copy posts which they don't like. I find that creepy and obsessive. There must have been a purpose, don't you think?
I am not allowed to respond to this post, sadly.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 06:43:10 PM
I haven't seen the evidence of that, but I expect you have. They did have a stated purpose, I believe, which was to understand the case. What was the purpose of the site which seemed to be gathering information just for the sake of it, I wonder.
Personally, I find the #McCann hatred and loony conspiracy theories borne out of this hatred at least as interesting as the case if not more so.  What makes otherwise normal, decent people so filled with obsessive hatred for two people they have never even met beforeand who have done nothing to harm them personally?  Surely that is worthy of further study?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 02, 2018, 07:36:03 PM
Personally, I find the #McCann hatred and loony conspiracy theories borne out of this hatred at least as interesting as the case if not more so.  What makes otherwise normal, decent people so filled with obsessive hatred for two people they have never even met beforeand who have done nothing to harm them personally?  Surely that is worthy of further study?

I am sure a "shrink" would have a field day with both sides of the equation wrt obsessive behaviour.
One side of course would rubbish the shrink's findings with great alacrity.
IMNSHO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 07:46:27 PM
Personally, I find the #McCann hatred and loony conspiracy theories borne out of this hatred at least as interesting as the case if not more so.  What makes otherwise normal, decent people so filled with obsessive hatred for two people they have never even met beforeand who have done nothing to harm them personally?  Surely that is worthy of further study?

I have no idea what motivates either side to be honest. There's one lot posting their opinions and another lot reading, copying and criticising what they say. They're all as daft as each other imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 07:49:41 PM
I have no idea what motivates either side to be honest. There's one lot posting their opinions and another lot reading, copying and criticising what they say. They're all as daft as each other imo.
You think only one side copies and criticises?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 08:02:13 PM
You think only one side copies and criticises?

I have seen one site where that seems to be their only activity.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 08:09:36 PM
I have seen one site where that seems to be their only activity.


The one where the researchers are calling "for a proper investigation into Madeleine McCanns death"
What arrogance!!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 02, 2018, 08:16:24 PM

The one where the researchers are calling "for a proper investigation into Madeleine McCanns death"
What arrogance!!

Or the one where they call sceptics [ censored word ] trolls, are proud to be !media monitors" and spend hours searching for sceptics posts so that they can share the identities of sceptics including photographs and giggle with glee about it.  What arrogance!

What does that activity do to help find Madeleine, perhaps someone could answer me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 08:23:43 PM
Or the one where they call sceptics [ censored word ] trolls, are proud to be !media monitors" and spend hours searching for sceptics posts so that they can share the identities of sceptics including photographs and giggle with glee about it.  What arrogance!

What does that activity do to help find Madeleine, perhaps someone could answer me.


My concern is for Madeleine and the arrogance of these researchers who have pronounced her to be dead.
You do seem much more concerned about the sceptic/supporter  tit for tat behaviour.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 02, 2018, 08:31:16 PM

My concern is for Madeleine and the arrogance of these researchers who have pronounced her to be dead.
You do seem much more concerned about the sceptic/supporter  tit for tat behaviour.

What happened to Brenda was not "tit for tat" behaviour, it would appear that it was a systematic attempt by a group of supporters to monitor every forum on the internet  and pass sceptics full information to the media with the gleeful hope of them being outed and called troll everywhere. We know what happened next.

Perhaps you can tell me how this activity actually helps Madeleine.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 08:41:15 PM
What happened to Brenda was not "tit for tat" behaviour, it would appear that it was a systematic attempt by a group of supporters to monitor every forum on the internet  and pass sceptics full information to the media with the gleeful hope of them being outed and called troll everywhere. We know what happened next.

Perhaps you can tell me how this activity actually helps Madeleine.


You miss my point.
Nothing posted by either sceptics or supporters will in my opinion help the search for Madeleine.
However having the arrogance to pronounce Madeleine dead and interfering in an ongoing investigation is in my opinion quite unjustifiable.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 02, 2018, 08:43:19 PM

You miss my point.
Nothing posted by either sceptics or supporters will in my opinion help the search for Madeleine.
However having the arrogance to pronounce Madeleine dead and interfering in an ongoing investigation is in my opinion quite unjustifiable.

How is anything in cyberland interfering with an official investigation ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 02, 2018, 08:44:04 PM
How is anything in cyberland interfering with an official investigation ?

But it's not in cyberland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 02, 2018, 08:57:30 PM
But it's not in cyberland.

That begs the question as to how it interferes with an official police investigation?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 02, 2018, 09:00:40 PM
How is anything in cyberland interfering with an official investigation ?

How about the letter, sent earlier this year, by a certain group to the Portuguese AG detailing their research into fake photos, weather conditions & the lies of multiple witnesses, demanding further investigation? That all originated in cyberland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 02, 2018, 09:04:08 PM
Has it had any effect ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 09:04:40 PM
I have seen one site where that seems to be their only activity.
You seem to be very selective about the sites you visit, have you never visited a sceptic site that criticises or copies?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 02, 2018, 09:09:06 PM
Has it had any effect ?

No idea - but if anyone other than the McCanns is arrested I'm sure the letter will have its uses for years in forum land.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2018, 09:39:09 PM
You seem to be very selective about the sites you visit, have you never visited a sceptic site that criticises or copies?

Not to the exclusion of all else, no.

I very rarely visit other sites unless they come up when I'm searching for information. In those cases CMoMM is usually the top answer due to the wealth of information that has been gathered there. Then there's Joanna Morais and Pamalam.

Supporter sites rarely appear because they contain more opinion than facts in my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2018, 10:16:20 PM
Not to the exclusion of all else, no.

I very rarely visit other sites unless they come up when I'm searching for information. In those cases CMoMM is usually the top answer due to the wealth of information that has been gathered there. Then there's Joanna Morais and Pamalam.

Supporter sites rarely appear because they contain more opinion than facts in my opinion.

I agree CMOMM contains a lot of information.. Much of it absolute rubbish
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2018, 10:26:50 PM
I agree CMOMM contains a lot of information.. Much of it absolute rubbish
Yes it’s akin to saying the Bible holds a wealth of information about how the earth came into being.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 03, 2018, 05:07:22 AM
Yes it’s akin to saying the Bible holds a wealth of information about how the earth came into being.
More than most realise IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 03, 2018, 05:18:48 AM
I've been away from the internet for a week and this thread has grown by about 30 pages so I'll just accept it is all OK.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 06:16:42 AM
I have seen suggestions that the dossier compilers had a connection to Summers and Swan and they did seem to be well informed;

Last August, a group of 10 “concerned citizens” wrote to the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, alerting him to “an appalling campaign of abuse directed at the parents and wider family of Madeleine McCann”.

None of the authors of the letter was related to or even knew Kate and Gerry McCann. It was, rather, they said, the behaviour of an army of online “[ censored word ]s” in recent months that decided them to turn to law enforcement. The abuses against the McCanns had “raged for over seven years now, but have lately become worse”.......

Yet the police yesterday ruled out taking any action. In a reply to the “concerned citizens”, Roger Bannister, the Assistant Chief Constable of the Leicestershire force – asked by Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe to look into the issues they had raised – wrote that, on the advice of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the evidence submitted of the abuse the McCanns had faced that had been “did not reach the evidential threshold for a successful prosecution”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11576515/No-one-has-the-right-to-take-away-a-parents-hope.html



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 06:35:51 AM
I have seen suggestions that the dossier compilers had a connection to Summers and Swan and they did seem to be well informed;

Last August, a group of 10 “concerned citizens” wrote to the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, alerting him to “an appalling campaign of abuse directed at the parents and wider family of Madeleine McCann”.

None of the authors of the letter was related to or even knew Kate and Gerry McCann. It was, rather, they said, the behaviour of an army of online “[ censored word ]” in recent months that decided them to turn to law enforcement. The abuses against the McCanns had “raged for over seven years now, but have lately become worse”.......

Yet the police yesterday ruled out taking any action. In a reply to the “concerned citizens”, Roger Bannister, the Assistant Chief Constable of the Leicestershire force – asked by Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe to look into the issues they had raised – wrote that, on the advice of the Director of Public Prosecutions, the evidence submitted of the abuse the McCanns had faced that had been “did not reach the evidential threshold for a successful prosecution”.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/11576515/No-one-has-the-right-to-take-away-a-parents-hope.html

I wasn't involved in the case then but had the so called abuses become worse or was that just given as a reason to present the dossier at that particular time?

I am sure that the dossier gang knew that no one would be prosecuted as I have seen threads on a forum where they were bemoaning the law on free speech and that the police would have done not have done anything.

Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 07:07:50 AM
Online abuse is a serious topic that needs to be addressed.... Not the tit for tat arguments between posters, but the targetting if individuals not involved with the sites.  For this, reason I applaud the action of the compilers and of Brunt and Sky and don't believe they have any responsibility  fir the death of Brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 07:20:22 AM
Online abuse is a serious topic that needs to be addressed.... Not the tit for tat arguments between posters, but the targetting if individuals not involved with the sites.  For this, reason I applaud the action of the compilers and of Brunt and Sky and don't believe they have any responsibility  fir the death of Brenda

In your opinion had the "online abuse" got worse prior to the dossier being compiled though. That was my point.

You have already said before many times that you applaud the dossier gatherers e.t.c.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 08:06:56 AM
Online abuse is a serious topic that needs to be addressed.... Not the tit for tat arguments between posters, but the targetting if individuals not involved with the sites.  For this, reason I applaud the action of the compilers and of Brunt and Sky and don't believe they have any responsibility  fir the death of Brenda

How many sites target individuals who aren't involved in the sites?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 08:13:35 AM
How many sites target individuals who aren't involved in the sites?
All of them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 08:30:47 AM
How many sites target individuals who aren't involved in the sites?

The difference is abusing real individuals  rather than anonymous  posters.... Abusing real people is far more serious
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 08:40:03 AM
All of them.

Individuals other than the McCanns, I meant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 08:59:02 AM
The difference is abusing real individuals  rather than anonymous  posters.... Abusing real people is far more serious

I have seen sites with threads aimed at named individuals such as Amaral and Grime. I don't think they are members.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
I have seen sites with threads aimed at named individuals such as Amaral and Grime. I don't think they are members.

Depends if they are criticising their professional performance... Which is legitimate and not the same as the abuse directed at the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 03, 2018, 09:07:32 AM
Depends if they are criticising their professional performance... Which is legitimate and not the same as the abuse directed at the mccanns

Actually you have got that the wrong way round IMO.

Fellow professionals criticising someone if fine, layman isn’t and can be libellous. It is legitimate to criticise someone’s everyday behaviour based on fact.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 09:49:21 AM
Actually you have got that the wrong way round IMO.

Fellow professionals criticising someone if fine, layman isn’t and can be libellous. It is legitimate to criticise someone’s everyday behaviour based on fact.

No it's, quite legitimate for a layman to criticise a professional based on fact... SYare constantly criticised here... Not always on fact

Brunt as, a journalist is criticised
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 09:51:46 AM
Actually you have got that the wrong way round IMO.

Fellow professionals criticising someone if fine, layman isn’t and can be libellous. It is legitimate to criticise someone’s everyday behaviour based on fact.

Brenda went far beyond criticism... She was abusive according to the police
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 09:54:03 AM
No it's, quite legitimate for a layman to criticise a professional based on fact... SYare constantly criticised here... Not always on fact

Brunt as, a journalist is criticised

There's a difference between criticism and abuse.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 09:56:30 AM
There's a difference between criticism and abuse.

I agree... Brenda was, abusive
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 10:00:37 AM
Actually you have got that the wrong way round IMO.

Fellow professionals criticising someone if fine, layman isn’t and can be libellous. It is legitimate to criticise someone’s everyday behaviour based on fact.

Really?

So a lay person cannot criticise their own doctor, dentist, their child's teacher.?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 10:03:06 AM
Actually you have got that the wrong way round IMO.

Fellow professionals criticising someone if fine, layman isn’t and can be libellous. It is legitimate to criticise someone’s everyday behaviour based on fact.

Just Re read your post and you are quite wrong... It is quite legitimate  for a layman to criticise a professional... Doesn't have to be libellous ...try reading sone feedback from patients on NHS sites
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 10:03:51 AM
I agree... Brenda was, abusive

And others have abused Amaral and Grime in my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 10:04:03 AM
I have seen sites with threads aimed at named individuals such as Amaral and Grime. I don't think they are members.

Have either Amaral or Grime been stalked at work, leaflets dropped through their neighbours letter boxes.,their children photographed, places where their children went to play visited.??

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 10:06:44 AM
And others have abused Amaral and Grime in my opinion.

I haven't seen either accused of criminal offences they have not even been arrested for or use of the word hatred, towards them... Abuse has many levels... Can you cite any abuse towards amaral or grime at the level towards the mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 03, 2018, 10:44:25 AM
One way or the other it has to stop.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 10:49:28 AM
And others have abused Amaral and Grime in my opinion.
As a professional you should expect criticism and learn from it... That's what I do
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 11:51:44 AM
One way or the other it has to stop.
What exactly has to stop Rob?

Questioning professionals in the Madeleine case appears to be fair game there fore surely questioning what the couple will also be acceptable.

I agree abuse and hatred including threats must stop but they must stop from both sides.

You also say "one way or the other it has to stop" does this mean that you agree with those who created the dossier and sent to to the media

Just a few thoughts and my opinion of course.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 12:04:13 PM
Have either Amaral or Grime been stalked at work, leaflets dropped through their neighbours letter boxes.,their children photographed, places where their children went to play visited.??

I have no intention of playing the 'this abuse was worse than that abuse' game. No laws have been broken and all abuse is wrong whichever form it takes and whoever it's directed at. Anyone who disapproves of abuse should condemn all abuse in my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 12:04:46 PM
Have either Amaral or Grime been stalked at work, leaflets dropped through their neighbours letter boxes.,their children photographed, places where their children went to play visited.??

This is the level of abuse and more that the McCann family have had.
Tip of the iceberg.
Much worse than any criticism of Amaral and Grime.
In my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 12:07:53 PM
I have no intention of playing the 'this abuse was worse than that abuse' game. No laws have been broken and all abuse is wrong whichever form it takes and whoever it's directed at. Anyone who disapproves of abuse should condemn all abuse in my opinion.

If you wish to equate the abuse shown to the McCann family with the criticism and low level name calling given to Amaral and anonymous posters, then that is your privilege.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 12:11:25 PM
This is the level of abuse and more that the McCann family have had.
Tip of the iceberg.
Much worse than any criticism of Amaral and Grime.
In my opinion.

Any sensible person would agree that that level of abuse is totally unacceptable Erngath.    The question on the title of this thread though is Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process.  I doubt that she was involved in any of those disgusting things so was her treatment by the dossier collators and the media fair to her?
IMO no and two wrongs do not make a right in my book.   She may have made some nasty tweets but she was not guilty of a crime under our law so did not deserve her treatment.

IMO she was used a scapegoat and held accountable by the media etc for all the tweets, posts and stalking you mention and what she clearly was not guilty of.

All the above is my opinion
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 12:14:51 PM
If you wish to equate the abuse shown to the McCann family with the criticism and low level name calling given to Amaral and anonymous posters, then that is your privilege.

I have today seen a post saying Amaral deserved to die slowly and painfully from cancer. I call that abuse and I condemn it. Do you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 12:16:29 PM
Any sensible person would agree that that level of abuse is totally unacceptable Erngath.    The question on the title of this thread though is Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process.  I doubt that she was involved in any of those disgusting things so was her treatment by the dossier collators and the media fair to her?
IMO no and two wrongs do not make a right in my book.   She may have made some nasty tweets but she was not guilty of a crime under our law so did not deserve her treatment.

IMO she was used a scapegoat and held accountable by the media etc for all the tweets, posts and stalking you mention and what she clearly was not guilty of.

All the above is my opinion


In my opinion the copious amounts of her twitterings  on the subject of the McCanns and her expressions of hatred and contempt for them, certainly would have been cause for concern and she was rightly included among those who were also involved in such abusive online activity.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 12:17:26 PM
I have today seen a post saying Amaral deserved to die slowly and painfully from cancer. I call that abuse and I condemn it. Do you?

Of course.. The person who made that tweet has, a lot of problems.. Imo... I question  your judgement on the basis you needed to ask that question
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 12:18:17 PM
I have today seen a post saying Amaral deserved to die slowly and painfully from cancer. I call that abuse and I condemn it. Do you?

Having never seen such a post, I will have to take your word for that.
If true, then of course I condemn it.
Do you condemn the activities of those whose behaviour I have previously outlined.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
I have today seen a post saying Amaral deserved to die slowly and painfully from cancer. I call that abuse and I condemn it. Do you?

I've said I condemn that... Not difficult... Your turn... Do you condemn some of Brendas more extreme posts
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 01:15:32 PM
I said probably not definitely Vertigo Swirl.

OK about cites

How about http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sl7pm3  - I have seen images of these tweets and they are genuine IMO.

I have already given a cite TWICE that Martin Brunt was given Brenda Leyland's name and Leicester (shire) as being her address.  Supporters on here keep saying that Martin Brunt found out her identity. He did not he was given it. If I said your name was ..... and you lived in .... and gave that to a reporter. If they they doorstepped you would they have found you or been given your identity.

I still stand by that.

Absolutely shocking Sunny. With all their tick tocking it was obvious the supporters  had handed her details to Brunt. They really weren’t the brightest bulbs in the box, were they ? Putting the details out there for all to see.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 01:22:36 PM
Absolutely shocking Sunny. With all their tick tocking it was obvious the supporters  had handed her details to Brunt. They really weren’t the brightest bulbs in the box, were they ? Putting the details out there for all to see.

And yet none of the supporters on here appear to think that the dossier collators nor Brunt didn't anything wrong.  in fact we have one member who thinks it was a great idea and obviously would wish to be involved in a further dossier.


The dossier cartel may not have broken the law but IMO they are as bad as the worst trolls as they knew the devastation they would cause a lady in her 60s living alone and cared not one jot.   

They surely could have simply listed those who were clearly trxxlls and did the things that Erngath has claimed (assuming someone did this as I asked for a cite and had no reply from her).  Or insisted that Brenda's identity was hidden (I am sure that would be devastating enough for her). 

I do not believe that the person who was interviewed with the swans was unaware of what was to happen to Brenda. IIMO Brunt would have kept her informed at all times of what was to happen.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 01:42:17 PM
And yet none of the supporters on here appear to think that the dossier collators nor Brunt didn't anything wrong.  in fact we have one member who thinks it was a great idea and obviously would wish to be involved in a further dossier.


The dossier cartel may not have broken the law but IMO they are as bad as the worst trolls as they knew the devastation they would cause a lady in her 60s living alone and cared not one jot.   

They surely could have simply listed those who were clearly trxxlls and did the things that Erngath has claimed (assuming someone did this as I asked for a cite and had no reply from her).  Or insisted that Brenda's identity was hidden (I am sure that would be devastating enough for her). 

I do not believe that the person who was interviewed with the swans was unaware of what was to happen to Brenda. IIMO Brunt would have kept her informed at all times of what was to happen.


Many accusations being made in that post.
Although you have been careful to add IMO several times and use " I believe" to disguise the fact that you are making assumptions and accusations.
Have you noticed you are the only sceptic who is asking for cites for the list of ignominious activities of some sceptics?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 03, 2018, 01:56:18 PM
I've said I condemn that... Not difficult... Your turn... Do you condemn some of Brendas more extreme posts

I condemn all the abuse, as I've said several times. I also condemn people who take the law into their own hands. That also can't be justified in my opinion, no matter how outraged they are.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 02:19:43 PM

Many accusations being made in that post.
Although you have been careful to add IMO several times and use " I believe" to disguise the fact that you are making assumptions and accusations.
Have you noticed you are the only sceptic who is asking for cites for the list of ignominious activities of some sceptics?

The ‘ignominious activities’ of sceptics has been adequately documented here already. What hasn’t is the ‘ignominious activities’ of the supporters who insulted and ultimately outed Brenda on Twitter in the most shameless ( though not very clever ) way.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 02:33:09 PM
I condemn all the abuse, as I've said several times. I also condemn people who take the law into their own hands. That also can't be justified in my opinion, no matter how outraged they are.

Just wanted to confirm you condemn Brendas abuse... You seem a bit reticent to admit it... I condemn all abuse towards real people but I don't see someone calling an anonymous, poster, an idiot as, beeing particularly  important.... I fully support the, dossier compilers... Brunt and Sky news... Abuse such as brenda was posting needs to be stopped

I didn't see anyone taking the law into their own hands although the online campaign  brenda was, involved in could be seen that way
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 02:34:56 PM
The ‘ignominious activities’ of sceptics has been adequately documented here already. What hasn’t is the ‘ignominious activities’ of the supporters who insulted and ultimately outed Brenda on Twitter in the most shameless ( though not very clever ) way.

I doubt any activities of any supporters could  either match the volume or the sheer nastiness of many sceptics of which sadly Brenda chose to align herself with.
I've said before that the rolling news type of broadcast of which Brenda was the subject is a type of broadcasting of which I don't approve.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 03, 2018, 02:48:46 PM
brendas  death was  caused by people taking the  law into their own hands imo  i believe of  people had not jumped the gun and  taken the law into their own hands brenda would still be alive  now
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 02:56:14 PM
brendas  death was  caused by people taking the  law into their own hands imo  i believe of  people had not jumped the gun and  taken the law into their own ands brenda would still be alive  now

Brendas death was more likely due to her existing problems... As her son confirmed.... The sky affair being merely the last straw ....which confirms other problems
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 03, 2018, 03:07:37 PM
Snip
Many people, when discussing trolling on the internet, see it as a manifestation of misogyny. Others, who don’t like this idea, insist that women can be trolls – vicious trolls – as well. Leyland, her choice of hate figures and her awful demise appear to prove their point far more graphically than anyone would wish.

Yet if you start thinking of trolls as people who resent strong people because they make them feel inadequate, then you see that trolling would indeed be an activity particularly attractive to misogynists, who prefer to think of women as weak precisely so they can think of themselves as strong by comparison.

The McCanns were strong enough to make sure that their own voices – not the stereotyped voice of the universal grieving parent – were heard. Trolls gain strength from making their voices heard too, but they’re not strong enough to speak in their own name. Expose a troll’s name, and you expose their fears and vulnerability. Such people, it appears, may sometimes be far more fearful and vulnerable than the people who anger them so greatly.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/10/what-made-kate-gerry-mccann-object-of-so-much-anger


The McCann family are trolled and abused using every internet social media platform in existence ~ including youtube ~ and no longer in existence.
Comment opportunities on press articles are never missed.

This has been going on for more than eleven years now and is in my opinion ... inhumane.

Brenda Leyland chose to join in and to add her voice to this callousness in which the McCanns had been given no choices about being the victims.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 03, 2018, 03:08:22 PM
I doubt any activities of any supporters could  either match the volume or the sheer nastiness of many sceptics of which sadly Brenda chose to align herself with.
I've said before that the rolling news type of broadcast of which Brenda was the subject is a type of broadcasting of which I don't approve.
This is a post which is positively Alfie-esque.

Nothing solid to support it.  Just lots of rhetoric.

The volume? What volume?

The sheer nastiness of many sceptics?  What nastiness?  How many sceptics?

Which sadly Brenda chose to align herself with?  Did she actually align herself with anyone?

.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 03:13:00 PM
Snip
Many people, when discussing trolling on the internet, see it as a manifestation of misogyny. Others, who don’t like this idea, insist that women can be trolls – vicious trolls – as well. Leyland, her choice of hate figures and her awful demise appear to prove their point far more graphically than anyone would wish.

Yet if you start thinking of trolls as people who resent strong people because they make them feel inadequate, then you see that trolling would indeed be an activity particularly attractive to misogynists, who prefer to think of women as weak precisely so they can think of themselves as strong by comparison.

The McCanns were strong enough to make sure that their own voices – not the stereotyped voice of the universal grieving parent – were heard. Trolls gain strength from making their voices heard too, but they’re not strong enough to speak in their own name. Expose a troll’s name, and you expose their fears and vulnerability. Such people, it appears, may sometimes be far more fearful and vulnerable than the people who anger them so greatly.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/10/what-made-kate-gerry-mccann-object-of-so-much-anger


The McCann family are trolled and abused using every internet social media platform in existence ~ including youtube ~ and no longer in existence.
Comment opportunities on press articles are never missed.

This has been going on for more than eleven years now and is in my opinion ... inhumane.

Brenda Leyland chose to join in and to add her voice to this callousness in which the McCanns had been given no choices about being the victims.

The media choose to print these articles and make comment available.

Maybe we should have a blackout on McCann-related articles appearing in the press.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:17:33 PM
This is a post which is positively Alfie-esque.

Nothing solid to support it.  Just lots of rhetoric.

The volume? What volume?

The sheer nastiness of many sceptics?  What nastiness?  How many sceptics?

Which sadly Brenda chose to align herself with?  Did she actually align herself with anyone?

.


Can you explain what you mean by my post being "positively  Alife-esque"?

Do you deny that there has been a volume of very unpleasant posts made about Madeleine's family.
Do you deny that many of these posts are nasty, libellous, deeply unpleasant and threatening?
Do you deny that these posts are made by sceptics
I can't quantify in actual numbers how many posts, how many sceptics or even the nastiness but just continue trying to deny that  this has occurred.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:20:55 PM
Snip
Many people, when discussing trolling on the internet, see it as a manifestation of misogyny. Others, who don’t like this idea, insist that women can be trolls – vicious trolls – as well. Leyland, her choice of hate figures and her awful demise appear to prove their point far more graphically than anyone would wish.

Yet if you start thinking of trolls as people who resent strong people because they make them feel inadequate, then you see that trolling would indeed be an activity particularly attractive to misogynists, who prefer to think of women as weak precisely so they can think of themselves as strong by comparison.

The McCanns were strong enough to make sure that their own voices – not the stereotyped voice of the universal grieving parent – were heard. Trolls gain strength from making their voices heard too, but they’re not strong enough to speak in their own name. Expose a troll’s name, and you expose their fears and vulnerability. Such people, it appears, may sometimes be far more fearful and vulnerable than the people who anger them so greatly.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/10/what-made-kate-gerry-mccann-object-of-so-much-anger


The McCann family are trolled and abused using every internet social media platform in existence ~ including youtube ~ and no longer in existence.
Comment opportunities on press articles are never missed.

This has been going on for more than eleven years now and is in my opinion ... inhumane.

Brenda Leyland chose to join in and to add her voice to this callousness in which the McCanns had been given no choices about being the victims.


Inhumane indeed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 03, 2018, 03:23:01 PM
The media choose to print these articles and make comment available.

Maybe we should have a blackout on McCann-related articles appearing in the press.

Now quite often comments are not allowed under a McCann related press item either good or bad.  Therefore yet another freedom universally denied because of misuse by a few.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:27:21 PM
I doubt any activities of any supporters could  either match the volume or the sheer nastiness of many sceptics of which sadly Brenda chose to align herself with.
I've said before that the rolling news type of broadcast of which Brenda was the subject is a type of broadcasting of which I don't approve.

So supporters calling Brenda a dog and bandying about private information on her on Twitter is not the same as Brenda ‘outing’ someone she thought was Amy Tierney ? How so ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 03:30:51 PM
Now quite often comments are not allowed under a McCann related press item either good or bad.  Therefore yet another freedom universally denied because of misuse by a few.

You can't have it all ways. Either there is free speech for all or for none, not just a select few.
If it stays within the law there should be no grounds for complaint
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:34:23 PM
So supporters calling Brenda a dog and bandying about private information on her on Twitter is not the same as Brenda ‘outing’ someone she thought was Amy Tierney ? How so ?


I certainly would condemn anyone being called a dog and bandying private information on Twitter.
However Brenda joined twitter, she of her own volition took part in the nastiness being handed about.
She was deeply unpleasant to  the girl she had mistakenly identified.
She was an adult woman who chose to spend a sizeable part of her daily routine joining in with the abuse, unpleasantness and general nastiness that seemed to exist on the McCann thread.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:34:30 PM

Can you explain what you mean by my post being "positively  Alife-esque"?

Do you deny that there has been a volume of very unpleasant posts made about Madeleine's family.
Do you deny that many of these posts are nasty, libellous, deeply unpleasant and threatening?
Do you deny that these posts are made by sceptics
I can't quantify in actual numbers how many posts, how many sceptics or even the nastiness but just continue trying to deny that  this has occurred.

Threatening ? I assume the ‘threatening’ tweets or posts were contained within the dossier? Threats to life are a criminal offence. Why was nobody then charged over the dossier contents ? Could it be that the police viewed the compilers of the dossier as sad old biddies with way too much time on their hands ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:36:05 PM
Threatening ? I assume the ‘threatening’ tweets or posts were contained within the dossier? Threats to life are a criminal offence. Why was nobody then charged over the dossier contents ? Could it be that the police viewed the compilers of the dossier as sad old biddies with way too much time on their hands ?

You could always contact the police and ask if that was their final conclusion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 03, 2018, 03:37:04 PM
Threatening ? I assume the ‘threatening’ tweets or posts were contained within the dossier? Threats to life are a criminal offence. Why was nobody then charged over the dossier contents ? Could it be that the police viewed the compilers of the dossier as sad old biddies with way too much time on their hands ?


the  way isee it is the mcanns actions on that holiday led up to whatever  did happen to maddie and  brenda was the scapegoat
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:39:09 PM

I certainly would condemn anyone being called a dog and bandying private information on Twitter.
However Brenda joined twitter, she of her own volition took part in the nastiness being handed about.
She was deeply unpleasant to  the girl she had mistakenly identified.
She was an adult woman who chose to spend a sizeable part of her daily routine joining in with the abuse, unpleasantness and general nastiness that seemed to exist on the McCann thread.

So Brenda was a victim of twitter abuse as well as taking part in it, are we agreed ? So what do you suggest is the difference between Brenda being a victim of twitter abuse and the McCanns being victims?

BTW how do you know that the girl identified as AT wasn’t ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 03:40:40 PM
You could always contact the police and ask if that was their final conclusion.

I imagine there was only one conclusion and that was to consign it to the rubbish bin.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:45:15 PM
You could always contact the police and ask if that was their final conclusion.

It seems it was.

I can just imagine those old biddies sitting in their armchairs, apoplectic with rage, finally realising that their dodgy dossier , which had been afforded such gravitas by Sky,  had been summarily dismissed by the only people that matter.

It’s the only light spot in this whole, disgusting affair.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 03:46:34 PM
You can't have it all ways. Either there is free speech for all or for none, not just a select few.
If it stays within the law there should be no grounds for complaint

Free speech... Then freedom for the compilers... Brunt... Sky
All within the law
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 03:48:09 PM
It seems it was.

I can just imagine those old biddies sitting in their armchairs, apoplectic with rage, finally realising that their dodgy dossier , which had been afforded such gravitas by Sky,  had been summarily dismissed by the only people that matter.

It’s the only light spot in this whole, disgusting affair.

Yet somehow I doubt thats what's hapenned
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:49:52 PM
So Brenda was a victim of twitter abuse as well as taking part in it, are we agreed ? So what do you suggest is the difference between Brenda being a victim of twitter abuse and the McCanns being victims?

BTW how do you know that the girl identified as AT wasn’t ?

No she was not a victim of "twitterr abuse"
She was a participant in "twitter abuse"
She gave abuse received abuse.
Not a victim.
When one crowd of football fans shout abuse at another set of football fans, they are all participating in the abuse.
The McCanns as not on twitter abusing anyone.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:52:02 PM
It seems it was.

I can just imagine those old biddies sitting in their armchairs, apoplectic with rage, finally realising that their dodgy dossier , which had been afforded such gravitas by Sky,  had been summarily dismissed by the only people that matter.

It’s the only light spot in this whole, disgusting affair.

Whatever keeps you entertained.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:52:11 PM
No she was not a victim of "twitterr abuse"
She was a participant in "twitter abuse"
She gave abuse received abuse.
Not a victim.
When one crowd of football fans shout abuse at another set of football fans, they are all participating in the abuse.
The McCanns as not on twitter abusing anyone.

The girl formerly known as AT, did she post on #mccann ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 03:52:26 PM
Yet somehow I doubt thats what's hapenned

I doubt it too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:52:51 PM
Whatever keeps you entertained.


Oh it does.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 03, 2018, 03:53:13 PM
So Brenda was a victim of twitter abuse as well as taking part in it, are we agreed ? So what do you suggest is the difference between Brenda being a victim of twitter abuse and the McCanns being victims?

BTW how do you know that the girl identified as AT wasn’t ?

Would it have made a difference if she was?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 03:54:40 PM
Would it have made a difference if she was?

No but it’s an interesting point nonetheless. How do supporters know it wasn’t AT ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 04:04:35 PM
No she was not a victim of "twitterr abuse"
She was a participant in "twitter abuse"
She gave abuse received abuse.
Not a victim.
When one crowd of football fans shout abuse at another set of football fans, they are all participating in the abuse.
The McCanns as not on twitter abusing anyone.

The Mccann's weren't on twitter but there were nasty abusive trolls on there who were supporters so IMO Brenda was abused and from what I have read their stalking of her was outside twitter rules and IMO the rules of decency.

Yes Brenda was nasty but she did not deserve what she got whatever others say.

What makes you think that the dossier hasn't hit a brick wall and been ignored by the police as not construing evidence of a crime. They say there was no crime so are they lying?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 04:04:38 PM

Oh it does.

Good.
Personally I would rather go out with my hubby, meet some old friends, have a lovely meal and share a couple of bottles of a very nice red wine.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 04:08:39 PM
Good.
Personally I would rather go out with my hubby, meet some old friends, have a lovely meal and share a couple of bottles of a very nice red wine.

I know what you mean. A bottle of white wine (not red though) a great meal with friends or family. Even better if someone else pays. Last time it was me.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 04:14:49 PM
Good.
Personally I would rather go out with my hubby, meet some old friends, have a lovely meal and share a couple of bottles of a very nice red wine.

My you have a social life, how very middle class of you !
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 04:17:45 PM
My you have a social life, how very middle class of you !

Virtual dinner parties with other STM members, where they link by skype and drink them selves silly, no doubt.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 04:26:03 PM
Virtual dinner parties with other STM members, where they link by skype and drink them selves silly, no doubt.  8(0(*

It always makes my chuckle, the constant alluding to a certain lifestyle. Are you supposed to be impressed ?  It really is rather cringeworthy.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 04:30:07 PM
It always makes my chuckle, the constant alluding to a certain lifestyle. Are you supposed to be impressed ?  It really is rather cringeworthy.

Still, better than sitting in a corner with your only friend a bottle of gin
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 04:30:59 PM
I know what you mean. A bottle of white wine (not red though) a great meal with friends or family. Even better if someone else pays. Last time it was me.  @)(++(*

I can enjoy white wine too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 04:31:08 PM
Still, better than sitting in a corner with your only friend a bottle of gin

A definite step up.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 03, 2018, 04:32:01 PM

Any further Off Topic and Smart Alec Comments will be deleted.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 03, 2018, 04:38:32 PM
The Mccann's weren't on twitter but there were nasty abusive trolls on there who were supporters so IMO Brenda was abused and from what I have read their stalking of her was outside twitter rules and IMO the rules of decency.

Yes Brenda was nasty but she did not deserve what she got whatever others say.

What makes you think that the dossier hasn't hit a brick wall and been ignored by the police as not construing evidence of a crime. They say there was no crime so are they lying?

In my opinion Brenda was the architect of her own misfortune and using her death in a blame game is inappropriate.

She had no intention of easing up on the McCanns.

Snip
On 17 September this year she tweeted what might have amounted to a personal manifesto: to make the McCanns "live in shame".
(http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/8/enhanced/webdr04/longform-original-20804-1412597422-10.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)

A week later, on 25 September, she sought to justify her hatred of the McCanns:
(http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/8/enhanced/webdr10/longform-original-30302-1412597670-15.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.yvz8WRW8e#.ekNbxQxbj

In real life Brenda Leyland was probably neither a saint nor a sinner but on the internet her obsession with the McCann family became legend.

The really sad thing about it all is that no lessons have been learned from the whole episode as I believe the abuse of that family continues apace.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
In my opinion Brenda was the architect of her own misfortune and using her death in a blame game is inappropriate.

She had no intention of easing up on the McCanns.

Snip
On 17 September this year she tweeted what might have amounted to a personal manifesto: to make the McCanns "live in shame".
(http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/8/enhanced/webdr04/longform-original-20804-1412597422-10.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)

A week later, on 25 September, she sought to justify her hatred of the McCanns:
(http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/8/enhanced/webdr10/longform-original-30302-1412597670-15.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.yvz8WRW8e#.ekNbxQxbj

In real life Brenda Leyland was probably neither a saint nor a sinner but on the internet her obsession with the McCann family became legend.

The really sad thing about it all is that no lessons have been learned from the whole episode as I believe the abuse of that family continues apace.

Something she and the McCanns have/had  in common.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 04:47:08 PM
Something she and the McCanns have/had  in common.

I wonder what is the difference between a sceptics obsession and a supporters ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 03, 2018, 04:55:50 PM
In my opinion Brenda was the architect of her own misfortune and using her death in a blame game is inappropriate.

She had no intention of easing up on the McCanns.

Snip
On 17 September this year she tweeted what might have amounted to a personal manifesto: to make the McCanns "live in shame".
(http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/8/enhanced/webdr04/longform-original-20804-1412597422-10.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)

A week later, on 25 September, she sought to justify her hatred of the McCanns:
(http://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-10/6/8/enhanced/webdr10/longform-original-30302-1412597670-15.jpg?downsize=800:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/read-the-deleted-tweets-brenda-leyland-sent-the-mccanns?utm_term=.yvz8WRW8e#.ekNbxQxbj

In real life Brenda Leyland was probably neither a saint nor a sinner but on the internet her obsession with the McCann family became legend.

The really sad thing about it all is that no lessons have been learned from the whole episode as I believe the abuse of that family continues apace.

I read your post that if you and supporters had your way you would be happy for everyone within the dossier to be outed regardless of whether any further people took their lives? I find that very heartless.

So she is the architect of her misfortune.  She wasn't given the chance to go quietly away (which I am sure she would have done). None of you have the slightest sympathy for her predicament which only came about because the dossier was passed to the media. Had it simply been passed to the police only then Brenda would surely be alive still IMO

If I am wrong regarding the first sentence then I apologise but this is how your post comes across to me.  I know others on here do have that sentiment as they have made it abundantly clear several times.
 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 05:14:51 PM
I read your post that if you and supporters had your way you would be happy for everyone within the dossier to be outed regardless of whether any further people took their lives? I find that very heartless.

So she is the architect of her misfortune.  She wasn't given the chance to go quietly away (which I am sure she would have done). None of you have the slightest sympathy for her predicament which only came about because the dossier was passed to the media. Had it simply been passed to the police only then Brenda would surely be alive still IMO

If I am wrong regarding the first sentence then I apologise but this is how your post comes across to me.  I know others on here do have that sentiment as they have made it abundantly clear several times.

I dint think anyone on here, wants people to commit suicide but I don't think being outed is what caused brendas suicide... The fact she killed herself on her estranged sons birthday points to other causes... As her other son confirmed.. There, were other factors at play with the outing only playing a small part
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 03, 2018, 05:26:40 PM
I dint think anyone on here, wants people to commit suicide but I don't think being outed is what caused brendas suicide... The fact she killed herself on her estranged sons birthday points to other causes... As her other son confirmed.. There, were other factors at play with the outing only playing a small part

Quote
He had “no doubt” from the panic in his mother’s voice when she telephoned to tell him of the Sky News incident that “this was the final straw that pushed her then to do what she did”.

Was from Ben.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 05:37:46 PM
Was from Ben.

Yes he mentions a final straw... Which we, all understand... So what was the great weight she was carrying that resulted in a straw being the tipping point
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 03, 2018, 05:47:56 PM
Yes he mentions a final straw... Which we, all understand... So what was the great weight she was carrying that resulted in a straw being the tipping point

Have you ever thought of writing a dictionary?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 05:49:23 PM
Have you ever thought of writing a dictionary?

could you explain...this seems to be a goading post...rather than responding to the point in my post...perhaps you simply cannot think of a decent reply
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 03, 2018, 05:52:10 PM
could you explain...this seems to be a goading post...rather than responding to the point in my post...perhaps you simply cannot think of a decent reply

He says she killed herself because of the outing, you seem to want his words to mean something else.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 03, 2018, 05:53:42 PM
I read your post that if you and your supporters had your way you would be happy for everyone within the dossier to be outed regardless of whether any further people took their lives? I find that very heartless.

So she is the architect of her misfortune.  She wasn't given the chance to go quietly away (which I am sure she would have done). None of you have the slightest sympathy for her predicament which only came about because the dossier was passed to the media. Had it simply been passed to the police only then Brenda would surely be alive still IMO

If I am wrong regarding the first sentence then I apologise but this is how your post comes across to me.  I know others on here do have that sentiment as they have made it abundantly clear several times.
The one thing I find singularly revealing is the absolute silence emanating from Brenda Leyland's family as far as condemnation of anything or any one is concerned.
I think it would be worthwhile and definitely respectful if the obvious privacy from the notoriety they found themselves associated with was given some consideration. 

greptweet.com
Her son, Ben, posted this on Facebook yesterday. 
But nothing remains except ... "This Facebook post is no longer available. It may have been removed or the privacy settings of the post may have changed."

In my opinion this is a family yearning for privacy ... in my opinion that should be respected but unfortunately that is never going to happen as long as there are those who see her as a vehicle to continue whatever vendetta of choice they may be pursuing.


As far as you appear to be concerned the only individuals who should be considered at risk due to the activities of abusers on social media are the abusers themselves.
Whose choice it is ... whose empowerment it is ...to either persist or desist.

You do not appear to be giving a single thought to the effects of internet abuse on the victims at whom the unsolicited abuse is directed.
They are not empowered to make it all cease and go away ... they have no choices in the matter other than to remove themselves from social media platforms entirely.

But we have seen ... it doesn't work like that.  The McCanns have no social media presence ... but it didn't stop their abuse to which Brenda Leyland was a contributor.

The people most at risk from taking their own lives ... and it is happening more and more often ... are the abused, not the perpetrators of the abuse.
Therefore were I you I would give more thought to the vulnerability of victims of this cowardly anonymous crime and direct some of your sympathy in their direction.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 05:55:18 PM
He says she killed herself because of the outing, you seem to want his words to mean something else.

no he doesnt.......he says the outing was the final straw..so what was the great weight he was referring to....you seem to be unable to answer the question
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 05:58:25 PM
He says she killed herself because of the outing, you seem to want his words to mean something else.

no he doesnt...he confirms she had some much greater problems,,,and that the outing was  a minor point that tipped the balance
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 06:00:28 PM
It seems it was.

I can just imagine those old biddies sitting in their armchairs, apoplectic with rage, finally realising that their dodgy dossier , which had been afforded such gravitas by Sky,  had been summarily dismissed by the only people that matter.

It’s the only light spot in this whole, disgusting affair.
Why do you think Sky News afforded it such gravitas in the first place?  Who are the only people that matter?
BTW, still hating on the olds I see...  8(0(*.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 06:09:05 PM
Why do you think Sky News afforded it such gravitas in the first place? Who are the only people that matter?
BTW, still hating on the olds I see...  8(0(*.

I read it to mean the police.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 06:10:19 PM
Did the dossier compilers know in advance that Sky would take the dossier seriously and target Brenda in particular?  What information did they pass on to Sky that Sky couldn’t have easily found out for themselves?  Is going to the press the best way of “taking the law into your own hands”?  How does that work exactly? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 06:11:42 PM
I read it to mean the police.
Really?  How odd.  Still, I will remember to use that in future discussions with F’lilly.  “The only people who matter are the police”.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 06:14:12 PM
Really?  How odd.  Still, I will remember to use that in future discussions with F’lilly.  “The only people who matter are the police”.

That's how I read it . In the context of the dossier, only the police mattered.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 06:31:12 PM
That's how I read it . In the context of the dossier, only the police mattered.
Still odd IMO, particularly on a forum which is concerned with miscarriages of justice.   When it comes to expressions of moral outrage, those who do so on behalf of Brenda win 1st prize IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 03, 2018, 06:31:55 PM
no he doesnt...he confirms she had some much greater problems,,,and that the outing was  a minor point that tipped the balance

Without she would probably still be alive.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 06:33:58 PM
Without she would probably still be alive.
Iyo... We don't know that
What we do know... According to her son... Is she had a lot of other problems apart from the outing..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 06:36:49 PM
If the police are the only people whose views matter in this case then both sides need to accept that neither side behaved in a criminal manner.  Each side however believes the other side behaved in a disgusting and immoral way.  We can all keep on reiterating this until the cows come home but it won’t bring Brenda back and it won’t stop [ censored word ]s hating.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 06:56:50 PM
This is a post which is positively Alfie-esque.

Nothing solid to support it.  Just lots of rhetoric.

The volume? What volume?

The sheer nastiness of many sceptics?  What nastiness?  How many sceptics?

Which sadly Brenda chose to align herself with?  Did she actually align herself with anyone?

.
Go to twitter.com. put #mccann into the search field.  Read.  All will become clear.

ETA: I have just done this myself and within 20 tweets I have read the McCanns being referred to as “c..ts” and “b........s”. That’s just a timy snapshot on a Monday evening over 11 years after Madeleine went missing.  Now try scaling that up.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 07:06:40 PM
The battle cry of the hardcore “sceptic”tweeter

“The #mccann s might of getting away with what they have done, but by god we wont let them forget, their kids grankids and future generations of theirs will know what they have done through social media WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP and nor will our kids”.

NEVER SURRENDER!!!
 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 07:09:05 PM
This is currently the top tweet on the #mccann tag, ie the most liked and retweeted presumably

@xxMichelleSxx English cemetery in Spain, a short drive from Portugal. The McCanns were seen 10 minutes away from it by a witness #McCann
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 03, 2018, 07:10:59 PM
Sounds as if supporters are not winning your propaganda war if this is a daily occurrence
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 03, 2018, 07:18:25 PM
I dint think anyone on here, wants people to commit suicide but I don't think being outed is what caused brendas suicide... The fact she killed herself on her estranged sons birthday points to other causes... As her other son confirmed.. There, were other factors at play with the outing only playing a small part

So it was all one big unfortunate coincidence then and Ben Leyland was misinformed when he stated his mother had been 'destroyed' by Sky's conduct?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 07:19:59 PM
Sounds as if you supporters are not winning your propaganda war if this is a daily occurrence
LOL, the propaganda war was won on twitter years ago, by “your side”, a dedicated little army of obsessives with their hate and their fake news ans photoshopped pics.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 03, 2018, 07:22:10 PM
No personal gibes please such as 'you supporters' or 'you sceptics'.

I previously warned that there would be consequences if the personal insults continued so I suggest that if anyone has made any since I last edited this thread, that they are removed pronto.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2018, 07:36:19 PM
So it was all one big unfortunate coincidence then and Ben Leyland was misinformed when he stated his mother had been 'destroyed' by Sky's conduct?

I think we need to look at his whole quote...rather than a snippet... What do you think hemeans by the final straw and why does he mention it. We know brenda had been treated by a psychiatrist... That indicates a more, severe condition than would be treated by a psychologist... We know she had attempted suicide before..we know she was estranged from her son and committed suicide on his birthday... I think it's clear that there us a lot more going on there  than be outed by sky... You and others can blame sky but it's just opinion... Without the full facts we don't know why she committed suicide... I don't put the blame at sky's door... Neither did the coroner
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 03, 2018, 08:16:20 PM
The battle cry of the hardcore “sceptic”tweeter

“The #mccann s might of getting away with what they have done, but by god we wont let them forget, their kids grankids and future generations of theirs will know what they have done through social media WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP and nor will our kids”.

NEVER SURRENDER!!!
 @)(++(*


 (&^&
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 03, 2018, 09:17:34 PM

 (&^&
"“The #mccann s might of getting away with what they have done, but by god we wont let them forget, their kids grankids and future generations of theirs will know what they have done through social media WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP and nor will our kids”."   Wouldn't  be out of place in the Old Testament.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 03, 2018, 09:37:52 PM
"“The #mccann s might of getting away with what they have done, but by god we wont let them forget, their kids grankids and future generations of theirs will know what they have done through social media WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP and nor will our kids”."   Wouldn't  be out of place in the Old Testament.

Or more likely The Beezer. "It's them thar Hillies and Billies a fightin' an' a feudin' again".

Or if you prefer real stuff the Campbells and MacDonalds.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 03, 2018, 11:08:28 PM
That's how I read it . In the context of the dossier, only the police mattered.

That’s exactly how I meant it but I’m sure Vertigo Swirl knew that.

In the context of the dossier the only decision that mattered was that of the police. Anything else is vigil[ censored word]m.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 03, 2018, 11:18:34 PM
That’s exactly how I meant it but I’m sure Vertigo Swirl knew that.

In the context of the dossier the only decision that mattered was that of the police. Anything else is vigil[ censored word]m.
Is vigil[ censored word]m against the law?  I know it is frowned upon but is it legal if handled within bounds?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 03, 2018, 11:50:29 PM
It’s a warped view that considers taking your concerns about online abuse to the media as vigil[ censored word]m, IMO.   Presumably, therefore every time a member of the public goes to the press whether it be to shine a light on malpractice in a hospital, child grooming gangs, sexual harassment, abuse by members of the priesthood,  racism within the police force, MPs expenses, etc then that too is vigil[ censored word]m. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 12:18:24 AM
It’s a warped view that considers taking your concerns about online abuse to the media as vigil[ censored word]m, IMO.   Presumably, therefore every time a member of the public goes to the press whether it be to shine a light on malpractice in a hospital, child grooming gangs, sexual harassment, abuse by members of the priesthood,  racism within the police force, MPs expenses, etc then that too is vigil[ censored word]m.

The press should be a last resort when all other channels of highlighting the issue have been exhausted. It should never be the first port of call.

But let’s be clear. This was never about justice. This was about ritual humiliation. Humiliation that would discourage further negative comment on the case. As Voltaire wrote in his novel Candide "In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 12:19:57 AM
It’s a warped view that considers taking your concerns about online abuse to the media as vigil[ censored word]m, IMO.   Presumably, therefore every time a member of the public goes to the press whether it be to shine a light on malpractice in a hospital, child grooming gangs, sexual harassment, abuse by members of the priesthood,  racism within the police force, MPs expenses, etc then that too is vigil[ censored word]m.
Certainly any form of protest against those issues could be considered vigil[ censored word]m, more so in certain societies.
In NZ we protest all manner of issues, in fact our own area has citizen patrols. The police even respond to drivers phoning in issues when reported (that I find a bit bizarre as how do they separate that out from a case of prejudice).
At least they have words with the "offenders".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 12:27:55 AM
The press should be a last resort when all other channels of highlighting the issue have been exhausted. It should never be the first port of call.

But let’s be clear. This was never about justice. This was about ritual humiliation. Humiliation that would discourage further negative comment on the case. As Voltaire wrote in his novel Candide "In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others."
That might be your opinion as to the order things get handled in, but who is the real judge of that?  I read that the police determined there were no illegal tweets in the ones they looked at.  OK I find that surprising, but I too appreciate the problem they'd have if they started stepping down on abusive tweets.  The police are used to being taunted by the low lifes.  Maybe they were a bit too hardened to be the judge of what is acceptable to the public.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 07:09:14 AM
The one thing I find singularly revealing is the absolute silence emanating from Brenda Leyland's family as far as condemnation of anything or any one is concerned.
I think it would be worthwhile and definitely respectful if the obvious privacy from the notoriety they found themselves associated with was given some consideration. 

greptweet.com
Her son, Ben, posted this on Facebook yesterday. 
But nothing remains except ... "This Facebook post is no longer available. It may have been removed or the privacy settings of the post may have changed."

In my opinion this is a family yearning for privacy ... in my opinion that should be respected but unfortunately that is never going to happen as long as there are those who see her as a vehicle to continue whatever vendetta of choice they may be pursuing.


As far as you appear to be concerned the only individuals who should be considered at risk due to the activities of abusers on social media are the abusers themselves.
Whose choice it is ... whose empowerment it is ...to either persist or desist.

You do not appear to be giving a single thought to the effects of internet abuse on the victims at whom the unsolicited abuse is directed.
They are not empowered to make it all cease and go away ... they have no choices in the matter other than to remove themselves from social media platforms entirely.

But we have seen ... it doesn't work like that.  The McCanns have no social media presence ... but it didn't stop their abuse to which Brenda Leyland was a contributor.

The people most at risk from taking their own lives ... and it is happening more and more often ... are the abused, not the perpetrators of the abuse.
Therefore were I you I would give more thought to the vulnerability of victims of this cowardly anonymous crime and direct some of your sympathy in their direction.

Did you have Brenda's facebook saved Brietta so you could go back to it?  I have found that if her page was gone it would simply not appear in searches but then I am not particularly experienced in facebook.

I however do agree that a number of tweets were abusive to the McCanns and that other posters on there are far worse than Brenda was.  I do have immense sympathy for the McCanns family regarding some of the horrible threats that had been posted online of course I am not heartless, threats that Brenda didn't post.

Although I still believe that what was done to Brenda was far beyond her so called suspected crime.  I was totally unaware of what was happening on this case at the time and it was constant media from pretty much every UK media outlet calling her troll, troll, even after her death and also after the police said she had not committed a crime.


Can you point me out to a similar case of character assassination based on on 4500 tweets please?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 07:16:55 AM
I think we need to look at his whole quote...rather than a snippet... What do you think hemeans by the final straw and why does he mention it. We know brenda had been treated by a psychiatrist... That indicates a more, severe condition than would be treated by a psychologist... We know she had attempted suicide before..we know she was estranged from her son and committed suicide on his birthday... I think it's clear that there us a lot more going on there  than be outed by sky... You and others can blame sky but it's just opinion... Without the full facts we don't know why she committed suicide... I don't put the blame at sky's door... Neither did the coroner

Davel you say "we need to look at his whole quote" yet you don't share his "whole quote"


Her death was on fourth of October 2015

Initially the family home was in Rothley (note. Did I hear this right?)

Brenda was a social figure in the village and she had close friendships within that village.

She had a fractious relationship with one neighbour over a wall or fence. There were emails and conversations that had taken place. There was a verbal altercation with the neighbour and other neighbours and villagers had spoken to her about this argument. She was upset and embarrassed. Brenda didn't like to think she was disliked. This was approximately a week before the reporter from Sky visited her saying Scotland Yard had a dossier on her.

He suggested pursuing a legal claim and discussed how to prevent her picture being published. He called solicitors in London at approximately 1600 to 17:00 hours UK time. He returned her call that night and said his mum panicked and went silent.

He logged on to her account and she had put a picture of his dog and his location as LA on her account. He still tried to contact the solicitor and wanted to help. He felt the story would blow over. Ben also contacted his father that night to let him know of the situation.

On Thursday 2nd of October the story broke on Sky News. Ben had no success trying to contact his mother that day. He contacted a neighbour who had been asked to cat sit for a few days while she lay low. He thought she had gone to other family. An email contact said she felt cheerier.

Saturday 4th October Ben received a call from his father about the death of his mother.

It was said she had attempted suicide before, a number of years ago.

His report continues saying she was very happy in the village however she had struggled with depression over the years and had alienated people in the past. She had difficulty connecting with people.

She was undergoing therapy, with medication for anxiety and extreme bouts of depression.

She had struggled with health conditions, and had physical, untreatable health issues.

He heard panic and fear in her voice after the Sky intervention. It was the final straw. She was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Brenda was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred. That sounds like one massive straw to me.   I am not surprised it destroyed her, it would destroy most private people.

Yes Brenda was wrong to post some of the posts she made but did she deserve what she got and should her information simply have been given to the police? 100% yes but passing it to the media who crucified her?, 100% no.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 07:25:39 AM
The press should be a last resort when all other channels of highlighting the issue have been exhausted. It should never be the first port of call.

But let’s be clear. This was never about justice. This was about ritual humiliation. Humiliation that would discourage further negative comment on the case. As Voltaire wrote in his novel Candide "In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others."
You seem keen to lay down the law about when concerned individuals may or may not go to the press.  Perhaps more restrictions on the freedom of the press is the answer, eh Faithlilly?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:33:16 AM
Davel you say "we need to look at his whole quote" yet you don't share his "whole quote"


Her death was on fourth of October 2015

Initially the family home was in Rothley (note. Did I hear this right?)

Brenda was a social figure in the village and she had close friendships within that village.

She had a fractious relationship with one neighbour over a wall or fence. There were emails and conversations that had taken place. There was a verbal altercation with the neighbour and other neighbours and villagers had spoken to her about this argument. She was upset and embarrassed. Brenda didn't like to think she was disliked. This was approximately a week before the reporter from Sky visited her saying Scotland Yard had a dossier on her.

He suggested pursuing a legal claim and discussed how to prevent her picture being published. He called solicitors in London at approximately 1600 to 17:00 hours UK time. He returned her call that night and said his mum panicked and went silent.

He logged on to her account and she had put a picture of his dog and his location as LA on her account. He still tried to contact the solicitor and wanted to help. He felt the story would blow over. Ben also contacted his father that night to let him know of the situation.

On Thursday 2nd of October the story broke on Sky News. Ben had no success trying to contact his mother that day. He contacted a neighbour who had been asked to cat sit for a few days while she lay low. He thought she had gone to other family. An email contact said she felt cheerier.

Saturday 4th October Ben received a call from his father about the death of his mother.

It was said she had attempted suicide before, a number of years ago.

His report continues saying she was very happy in the village however she had struggled with depression over the years and had alienated people in the past. She had difficulty connecting with people.

She was undergoing therapy, with medication for anxiety and extreme bouts of depression.

She had struggled with health conditions, and had physical, untreatable health issues.

He heard panic and fear in her voice after the Sky intervention. It was the final straw. She was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Brenda was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred. That sounds like one massive straw to me.   I am not surprised it destroyed her, it would destroy most private people.

Yes Brenda was wrong to post some of the posts she made but did she deserve what she got and should her information simply have been given to the police? 100% yes but passing it to the media who crucified her?, 100% no.


One wonders why when having so many difficulties in her life, her estrangement from her son, her divorce, her difficulties with a neighbour, her health issues and her depression, anxiety, her difficulty in connecting with people, she chose to spend so much of her time tweeting about the family of a missing child.

You use the word "crucify"  in regards to Brenda
In my opinion she willingly participated with others  in doing just that to Madeleine's family.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:35:20 AM
You seem keen to lay down the law about when concerned individuals may or may not go to the press.  Perhaps more restrictions on the freedom of the press is the answer, eh Faithlilly?


Ironic isn't it that the clamour for free speech and freedom of the press has only to be in certain circumstances.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:36:44 AM
Davel you say "we need to look at his whole quote" yet you don't share his "whole quote"


Her death was on fourth of October 2015

Initially the family home was in Rothley (note. Did I hear this right?)

Brenda was a social figure in the village and she had close friendships within that village.

She had a fractious relationship with one neighbour over a wall or fence. There were emails and conversations that had taken place. There was a verbal altercation with the neighbour and other neighbours and villagers had spoken to her about this argument. She was upset and embarrassed. Brenda didn't like to think she was disliked. This was approximately a week before the reporter from Sky visited her saying Scotland Yard had a dossier on her.

He suggested pursuing a legal claim and discussed how to prevent her picture being published. He called solicitors in London at approximately 1600 to 17:00 hours UK time. He returned her call that night and said his mum panicked and went silent.

He logged on to her account and she had put a picture of his dog and his location as LA on her account. He still tried to contact the solicitor and wanted to help. He felt the story would blow over. Ben also contacted his father that night to let him know of the situation.

On Thursday 2nd of October the story broke on Sky News. Ben had no success trying to contact his mother that day. He contacted a neighbour who had been asked to cat sit for a few days while she lay low. He thought she had gone to other family. An email contact said she felt cheerier.

Saturday 4th October Ben received a call from his father about the death of his mother.

It was said she had attempted suicide before, a number of years ago.

His report continues saying she was very happy in the village however she had struggled with depression over the years and had alienated people in the past. She had difficulty connecting with people.

She was undergoing therapy, with medication for anxiety and extreme bouts of depression.

She had struggled with health conditions, and had physical, untreatable health issues.

He heard panic and fear in her voice after the Sky intervention. It was the final straw. She was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Brenda was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred. That sounds like one massive straw to me.   I am not surprised it destroyed her, it would destroy most private people.

Yes Brenda was wrong to post some of the posts she made but did she deserve what she got and should her information simply have been given to the police? 100% yes but passing it to the media who crucified her?, 100% no.

If the dossier compilers wish to take the dossier to the press then that is their right... You seem to want to restrict peoples legal rights...you support brendas legal rights but not the compilers... That is hypocrisy....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:47:53 AM
Davel you say "we need to look at his whole quote" yet you don't share his "whole quote"


Her death was on fourth of October 2015

Initially the family home was in Rothley (note. Did I hear this right?)

Brenda was a social figure in the village and she had close friendships within that village.

She had a fractious relationship with one neighbour over a wall or fence. There were emails and conversations that had taken place. There was a verbal altercation with the neighbour and other neighbours and villagers had spoken to her about this argument. She was upset and embarrassed. Brenda didn't like to think she was disliked. This was approximately a week before the reporter from Sky visited her saying Scotland Yard had a dossier on her.

He suggested pursuing a legal claim and discussed how to prevent her picture being published. He called solicitors in London at approximately 1600 to 17:00 hours UK time. He returned her call that night and said his mum panicked and went silent.

He logged on to her account and she had put a picture of his dog and his location as LA on her account. He still tried to contact the solicitor and wanted to help. He felt the story would blow over. Ben also contacted his father that night to let him know of the situation.

On Thursday 2nd of October the story broke on Sky News. Ben had no success trying to contact his mother that day. He contacted a neighbour who had been asked to cat sit for a few days while she lay low. He thought she had gone to other family. An email contact said she felt cheerier.

Saturday 4th October Ben received a call from his father about the death of his mother.

It was said she had attempted suicide before, a number of years ago.

His report continues saying she was very happy in the village however she had struggled with depression over the years and had alienated people in the past. She had difficulty connecting with people.

She was undergoing therapy, with medication for anxiety and extreme bouts of depression.

She had struggled with health conditions, and had physical, untreatable health issues.

He heard panic and fear in her voice after the Sky intervention. It was the final straw. She was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred.


http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm

So Brenda was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred. That sounds like one massive straw to me.   I am not surprised it destroyed her, it would destroy most private people.

Yes Brenda was wrong to post some of the posts she made but did she deserve what she got and should her information simply have been given to the police? 100% yes but passing it to the media who crucified her?, 100% no.

Do you have a cite for... Would destroy most private people... IMO that's absolute rubbish.... IMO many have been doorstepped.... First time I've heard if a suicide


If you don't provide a cite please stop demanding them from others
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 08:40:17 AM
The press should be a last resort when all other channels of highlighting the issue have been exhausted. It should never be the first port of call.

But let’s be clear. This was never about justice. This was about ritual humiliation. Humiliation that would discourage further negative comment on the case. As Voltaire wrote in his novel Candide "In this country, it is wise to kill an admiral from time to time to encourage the others."

The problem with the dossier compilers and Sky is that they thought the public shared their opinions about online trolling of the McCanns.

The truth was that the public didn't care;

In September 2007 only 20% of the UK population thought the McCanns were blameless.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1663733,00.html




Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 08:48:53 AM
The problem with the dossier compilers and Sky is that they thought the public shared their opinions about online trolling of the McCanns.

The truth was that the public didn't care;

In September 2007 only 20% of the UK population thought the McCanns were blameless.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1663733,00.html

Were all Britons asked?
I wasn't, don't know anyone who was.
Anyone I have spoken to certainly disagrees with online abuse.

Rather worrying that online abuse is regarded as not important.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 08:55:59 AM
If the dossier compilers wish to take the dossier to the press then that is their right... You seem to want to restrict peoples legal rights...you support bredndas legal rights but not the compilers... That is hypocrisy....

It does seem so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 04, 2018, 09:05:27 AM

Ironic isn't it that the clamour for free speech and freedom of the press has only to be in certain circumstances.

Free Speech, But Only For Me.  There's a lot of it about.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 09:14:45 AM
Were all Britons asked?
I wasn't, don't know anyone who was.
Anyone I have spoken to certainly disagrees with online abuse.

Rather worrying that online abuse is regarded as not important.

I was referring to online abuse of the McCanns, not online abuse in general. I think they chose the wrong example if they wanted to whip up public outrage. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 09:20:26 AM
The problem with the dossier compilers and Sky is that they thought the public shared their opinions about online trolling of the McCanns.

The truth was that the public didn't care;

In September 2007 only 20% of the UK population thought the McCanns were blameless.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1663733,00.html
"YouGov poll published in the Sunday Times of London this week found that only 20% of Britons think Gerry and Kate McCann are completely innocent."

Is "completely innocent" and "blameless" the same?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 09:23:35 AM
I was referring to online abuse of the McCanns, not online abuse in general. I think they chose the wrong example if they wanted to whip up public outrage.

They wished to highlight the abuse against the McCann's.. Which they did... Quite right too... Imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 09:28:00 AM
I was referring to online abuse of the McCanns, not online abuse in general. I think they chose the wrong example if they wanted to whip up public outrage.
The public are outraged at online abuse but not if that online abuse is directed at the MCcanns??
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 09:36:50 AM
The public are outraged at online abuse but not if that online abuse is directed at the MCcanns??

I don't think the general public is outraged at all - most probably don't give a monkey's as they have more important things to concern them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 09:42:05 AM
I don't think the general public is outraged at all - most probably don't give a monkey's as they have more important things to concern them.
That survey was in 2007.  Most now probably have to be reminded what the McCann case was about.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 04, 2018, 09:50:33 AM
I don't think the general public is outraged at all - most probably don't give a monkey's as they have more important things to concern them.

the world has moved on 99.9%  of people around the world dont think of the mcanns  now  the  tweens and teens  at the time have  moved on and probably have their own families  now
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 09:56:28 AM
The public are outraged at online abuse but not if that online abuse is directed at the MCcanns??

I don't think the UK public are sufficiently cohesive to agree on what is or isn't 'outrageous'. The only time I've seen a cohesive reaction was after the death of Princess Diana.

Using the McCanns as their example was a misjudgement because they thought everyone cared about the McCanns as much as they did. That's my opinion anyway.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 09:59:19 AM
the world has moved on 99.9%  of people around the world dont think of the mcanns  now  the  tweens and teens  suckered  in by the begging bowl/s at the time have  moved on and probably have their own families  now

Indeed it has. Even the McCanns' rich sponsors appear to have moved on.
Another decade and it'll all be a foot note in some police manual.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2018, 10:02:25 AM
The problem with the dossier compilers and Sky is that they thought the public shared their opinions about online trolling of the McCanns.

The truth was that the public didn't care;

In September 2007 only 20% of the UK population thought the McCanns were blameless.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1663733,00.html

Actually, in September 2007 twenty isn't a really bad percentage considering the amount of misinformation doing the rounds ... such as lying headlines about Madeleine's DNA being found here there and everywhere etc ... not to mention the fact that the Portuguese police had made them arguidos (suspects) in Madeleine's disappearance.

The use of the internet for abuse was in its infancy back in 2007 ... it has come on by leaps and bounds since then with more and more ordinary people experiencing at first hand the insidiously harmful effect when innocents from all walks of life are exposed to it.

If a poll was taken now asking if it is appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose ... I think respondents wouldn't take too long to think before ticking the "NO WAY" box.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 10:09:28 AM
Actually, in September 2007 twenty isn't a really bad percentage considering the amount of misinformation doing the rounds ... such as lying headlines about Madeleine's DNA being found here there and everywhere etc ... not to mention the fact that the Portuguese police had made them arguidos (suspects) in Madeleine's disappearance.

The use of the internet for abuse was in its infancy back in 2007 ... it has come on by leaps and bounds since then with more and more ordinary people experiencing at first hand the insidiously harmful effect when innocents from all walks of life are exposed to it.

If a poll was taken now asking if it is appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose ... I think respondents wouldn't take too long to think before ticking the "NO WAY" box.

If they could be bothered to tick a box at all. Apathy is a powerful force.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 10:13:42 AM
Actually, in September 2007 twenty isn't a really bad percentage considering the amount of misinformation doing the rounds ... such as lying headlines about Madeleine's DNA being found here there and everywhere etc ... not to mention the fact that the Portuguese police had made them arguidos (suspects) in Madeleine's disappearance.

The use of the internet for abuse was in its infancy back in 2007 ... it has come on by leaps and bounds since then with more and more ordinary people experiencing at first hand the insidiously harmful effect when innocents from all walks of life are exposed to it.

If a poll was taken now asking if it is appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose ... I think respondents wouldn't take too long to think before ticking the "NO WAY" box.

A properly organised poll would never ask the question bolded. It's too biased.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 10:20:32 AM
A properly organised poll would never ask the question bolded. It's too biased.
"Is it appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose?"

That is a pretty complex question.   I agree too biased.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 10:26:56 AM
"Is it appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose?"

That is a pretty complex question.   I agree to biased.

Polls have to ask neutral questions otherwise they aren't objective.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 10:35:51 AM
Polls have to ask neutral questions otherwise they aren't objective.
So how would the question be asked?  ""Is it appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose?"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 10:39:29 AM
So how would the question be asked?  ""Is it appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose?"

That's terribly biased.

How about " Is it appropriate to subject people to on-going verbal abuse?"

That's stripped it of all its emotive context .
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2018, 11:15:25 AM
That's terribly biased.

How about " Is it appropriate to subject people to on-going verbal abuse?"

That's stripped it of all its emotive context .

I think you would change verbal to online.

You would also have a number of other questions changing abuse to criticism and then to comment, to get a better idea of views held.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 11:31:59 AM
So how would the question be asked?  ""Is it appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose?"

There are so many things wrong with that question it would never be asked by a reputable polling organisation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 11:59:24 AM
You seem keen to lay down the law about when concerned individuals may or may not go to the press.  Perhaps more restrictions on the freedom of the press is the answer, eh Faithlilly?

I suppose it depends what you want to achieve.

If this was about protecting the McCanns from online threats, as claimed, then the police are the only people with that capability. If it was about humiliation then the press was certainly the way to go. I suppose it depends what you REALLY wanted to achieve.

As to freedom of the press, the press have no right to hound innocent people. They didn’t when they did it to the McCanns and they didn’t when It came to Brenda. Each, it could be argued, by their actions played a significant part in the events that lead to their hounding but that doesn’t make their hounding any more acceptable.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 12:01:52 PM
I think you would change verbal to online.

You would also have a number of other questions changing abuse to criticism and then to comment, to get a better idea of views held.

But then you would not be getting a view on abuse... Which is what Brenda was engaged in... Nothing wrong with criticism.....

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
I don't know how people find out the identity of others on the internet, but if it happened to me I would want to know how it's done because my right to privacy (Article 8 of the EUCFR) would have been breached. I would want to know how my personal data was able to be gathered, because I have the right to have it protected by those who offer people the choice to post anonymously on the internet. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 12:15:04 PM
I don't know how people find out the identity of others on the internet, but if it happened to me I would want to know how it's done because my right to privacy (Article 8 of the EUCFR) would have been breached. I would want to know how my personal data was able to be gathered, because I have the right to have it protected by those who offer people the choice to post anonymously on the internet.

On that basis I might have a claim against Amazon
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2018, 12:19:44 PM
"Is it appropriate behaviour to expose the family of a missing child to unrelenting verbal assault for over eleven years without let or hindrance and most of which is organised by groups set up specifically for the purpose?"

That is a pretty complex question.   I agree too biased.

What is biased?  The sum of the parts or the whole bearing in mind that the McCanns are not the only family suffering the trauma of a family member going missing? **

I would state with certainty though that they are unique in the volume of instruments set up on the internet to pry into every facet of their lives and to have had ordure heaped on them for over eleven years.
Brenda Leyland was an active although anonymous participant in that.

It has been quoted on numerous occasions that Brenda Leyland's son said:
Snip
"He heard panic and fear in her voice after the Sky intervention. It was the final straw. She was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred."
----------------------------------------------------------------

What seldom accompanies that sentence are the many preceding it.

Snip
It was said she had attempted suicide before, a number of years ago.

His report continues saying she was very happy in the village however she had struggled with depression over the years and had alienated people in the past. She had difficulty connecting with people.

She was undergoing therapy, with medication for anxiety and extreme bouts of depression.

She had struggled with health conditions, and had physical, untreatable health issues.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm


  ** Social Media, Trolls and Your Missing

Unfortunately, families of missing may endure rumors, malicious havoc and even cyber harassment.

This is very common when blogs and forums exist in which members of the general public will gather and discuss cases.

Most “bloggers” are not privy to information regarding “actual case specifics” and will draw upon their own conclusions and many times are wrong.
This creates rumors and gossip which adds to undue stress for the family trying to find their missing loved one.

With that said, Social Media is a great source to utilize to help find your missing…however, it can also cause pain to families of missing should they not be aware of situations that can arise and what to do to help prevent them.

This page was designed to help families understand what they can do to avoid such situations.
http://lostnmissing.org/socialmedia/
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 12:20:00 PM
Actually you have got that the wrong way round IMO.

Fellow professionals criticising someone if fine, layman isn’t and can be libellous. It is legitimate to criticise someone’s everyday behaviour based on fact.

So.... If I said Wayne Rooney had an awful game in his last outing.... I'm criticising a professional... Would he have a case for libel... No he wouldn't... You need to look at libel law, again
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2018, 12:29:25 PM
So.... If I said Wayne Rooney had an awful game in his last outing.... I'm criticising a professional... Would he have a case for libel... No he wouldn't... You need to look at libel law, again

It depends if you understand football.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 01:21:02 PM
What is biased?  The sum of the parts or the whole bearing in mind that the McCanns are not the only family suffering the trauma of a family member going missing? **

I would state with certainty though that they are unique in the volume of instruments set up on the internet to pry into every facet of their lives and to have had ordure heaped on them for over eleven years.
Brenda Leyland was an active although anonymous participant in that.

It has been quoted on numerous occasions that Brenda Leyland's son said:
Snip
"He heard panic and fear in her voice after the Sky intervention. It was the final straw. She was broken, weak and completely destroyed by what occurred."
----------------------------------------------------------------

What seldom accompanies that sentence are the many preceding it.

Snip
It was said she had attempted suicide before, a number of years ago.

His report continues saying she was very happy in the village however she had struggled with depression over the years and had alienated people in the past. She had difficulty connecting with people.

She was undergoing therapy, with medication for anxiety and extreme bouts of depression.

She had struggled with health conditions, and had physical, untreatable health issues.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Brenda_Leyland.htm


  ** Social Media, Trolls and Your Missing

Unfortunately, families of missing may endure rumors, malicious havoc and even cyber harassment.

This is very common when blogs and forums exist in which members of the general public will gather and discuss cases.

Most “bloggers” are not privy to information regarding “actual case specifics” and will draw upon their own conclusions and many times are wrong.
This creates rumors and gossip which adds to undue stress for the family trying to find their missing loved one.

With that said, Social Media is a great source to utilize to help find your missing…however, it can also cause pain to families of missing should they not be aware of situations that can arise and what to do to help prevent them.

This page was designed to help families understand what they can do to avoid such situations.
http://lostnmissing.org/socialmedia/

A survey question is biased when it's clear which answer the questioner prefers.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 02:11:13 PM
It depends if you understand football.

Why.. Im not a professional

I think Theresa May is making a mess of Brexit... Am I entitled to criticise May... Is that libel
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 02:12:14 PM
And last of all... I wasn't impressed with the alerts given by the dogs...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 03:57:39 PM
I  have just read through this thread and have seen posters trying to say that other people were "doorstepped" and haven't committed suicide.

Of course this is very true but Brenda Leyland was not just "doorstepped" she had her entire character systematically destroyed by dozens of journalists and many of our UK media outlets for days on end. The video of her being "doorstepped" was shown ever 30 minutes or so on Sky News.

Now why a middle class lady in her 60s who made tweets about the McCann couple should be newsworthy is one question, whether she was newsworthy to the extent that she was exposed within the media is yet another.

Can anyone justify why Brenda had a character assassination by Sky News, The Sun, The Guardian, etc simply because she made some unpleasant (and yes some abusive) tweets about the McCanns that hardly anyone saw.

I certainly didn't see them as I wasn't reading anything about the case at all at that time.

I read my news on the google news page and couldn't remember prior to then ever seeing a McCann related story although I probably had seen the odd one without really noticing it.

However after Brenda was doorstepped there were dozens of articles all calling her trxll etc.

Total overkill (literally) IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 04, 2018, 04:00:31 PM

Did Brenda Leyland not originally comment under her real name?  If so, why did she change it to Sweepy Face?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 04:07:34 PM
I  have just read through this thread and have seen posters trying to say that other people were "doorstepped" and haven't committed suicide.

Of course this is very true but Brenda Leyland was not just "doorstepped" she had her entire character systematically destroyed by dozens of journalists and many of our UK media outlets for days on end. The video of her being "doorstepped" was shown ever 30 minutes or so on Sky News.

Now why a middle class lady in her 60s who made tweets about the McCann couple should be newsworthy is one question, whether she was newsworthy to the extent that she was exposed within the media is yet another.

Can anyone justify why Brenda had a character assassination by Sky News, The Sun, The Guardian, etc simply because she made some unpleasant (and yes some abusive) tweets about the McCanns that hardly anyone saw.

I certainly didn't see them as I wasn't reading anything about the case at all at that time.

I read my news on the google news page and couldn't remember prior to then ever seeing a McCann related story although I probably had seen the odd one without really noticing it.

However after Brenda was doorstepped there were dozens of articles all calling her trxll etc.

Total overkill (literally) IMO

Just your opinion.... A bully getting exposed IMO.... The McCann case is newsworthy... Brenda chose to get involved... Her choice... The press was entitled to do what it did... Their choice
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 04:09:40 PM
Did Brenda Leyland not originally comment under her real name?  If so, why did she change it to Sweepy Face?

I don't know Eleanor but what I do know is some supporters found her by comparing her facebook account with her twitter account. Perhaps she made posts on a mccann sceptic facebook page or even liked someone elses comments one one.

This set the supporters searching for a twitter account to compare to her facebook page IMO.  Of course she had her son's dog on her twitter account and also I gather her facebook page so it would be easy to confirm when you had both pages in front of you.

The question is why would the supporters want her information? Oh sorry I know why  they did as they have shown why.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 04:16:33 PM
I don't know Eleanor but what I do know is some supporters found her by comparing her facebook account with her twitter account. Perhaps she made posts on a mccann sceptic facebook page or even liked someone elses comments one one.

This set the supporters searching for a twitter account to compare to her facebook page IMO.  Of course she had her son's dog on her twitter account and also I gather her facebook page so it would be easy to confirm when you had both pages in front of you.

The question is why would the supporters want her information? Oh sorry I know why  they did as they have shown why.

Some people think Brenda deserved to be outed... I would like to see further abusers outed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 04:21:12 PM
Just your opinion.... A bully getting exposed IMO.... The McCann case is newsworthy... Brenda chose to get involved... Her choice... The press was entitled to do what it did... Their choice

The McCann case isn't headline news these days. It isn't heading up a google search on the news page but I agree it is newsworthy.  However is a woman who made 4500 tweets (or so) some about the McCann case newsworthy enough to have a rolling video of her being accosted by Martin Brunt outside her home on Sky News for hours, having screaming headlines from pretty much every other media outlet for days.

Was nothing else happening in the news for those days? It would appear so. All because one lady made 4500 tweets, which probably hardly anyone read, and some about the McCanns.





Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 04:30:06 PM
The McCann case isn't headline news these days. It isn't heading up a google search on the news page but I agree it is newsworthy.  However is a woman who made 4500 tweets (or so) some about the McCann case newsworthy enough to have a rolling video of her being accosted by Martin Brunt outside her home on Sky News for hours, having screaming headlines from pretty much every other media outlet for days.

Was nothing else happening in the news for those days? It would appear so. All because one lady made 4500 tweets, which probably hardly anyone read, and some about the McCanns.

its skys business not yours or mine...ask them....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 04, 2018, 04:35:17 PM
The McCann case isn't headline news these days. It isn't heading up a google search on the news page but I agree it is newsworthy.  However is a woman who made 4500 tweets (or so) some about the McCann case newsworthy enough to have a rolling video of her being accosted by Martin Brunt outside her home on Sky News for hours, having screaming headlines from pretty much every other media outlet for days.

Was nothing else happening in the news for those days? It would appear so. All because one lady made 4500 tweets, which probably hardly anyone read, and some about the McCanns.

I remember thinking the same at the time, unfortunately for Brenda it was a slow news day all day with very little else going on elsewhere so Brunt's doorstepping feature received overly exposure.  Had there been something of newsworthy significance going on the story might never even been aired.

I suspect the truth behind what occurred was more to do with saving face over their fiasco report from Praia da Luz about the DNA results than it was to do with unearthing an internet troll.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 04:44:11 PM
I remember thinking the same at the time, unfortunately for Brenda it was a slow news day all day with very little else going on elsewhere so Brunt's doorstepping feature received overly exposure.  Had there been something of newsworthy significance going on the story might never even been aired.

It wsan't just Sky though it was nearly all UK media.  I am sure that the Daily Mail were passed Brenda's identity as well as Sky as they were very quick on the mark naming her etc. it would appear.

However newsworthy the McCanns are this was way over the top IMO.

Davel next time there is a McCann story. Don't search google news for "McCann" just see if it is there. It probably won't appear on the front page of the search.   Brenda did. 

I expect you hoped that all the others in the dossier were outed in the same manner too.

OK Davel it was up to the media and you think it is fine for nearly every media outlet to call Brenda a trxll again and again and again for days.

 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 04:48:52 PM
Some people think Brenda deserved to be outed... I would like to see further abusers outed


All abusers , not just McCann abusers.
Just back home and recalling a conversation with a young relative today about a girl she knows who is  being bullied on social media.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 04, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
I remember thinking the same at the time, unfortunately for Brenda it was a slow news day all day with very little else going on elsewhere so Brunt's doorstepping feature received overly exposure.  Had there been something of newsworthy significance going on the story might never even been aired.

I suspect the truth behind what occurred was more to do with saving face over their fiasco report from Praia da Luz about the DNA results than it was to do with unearthing an internet troll.

i have  davel on ignore  but though others posts i canseee some of his posts   he worrys me with his wanting others to be outed   he is like a mcann crazy  fan    he cares about no one but the mcanns  brenda  didnt  deserve    anything    like she got  imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 04, 2018, 04:57:52 PM
i have  davel on ignore  but though others posts i canseee some of his posts   he worrys me with his wanting others to be outed   he is like a mcann crazy  fan    he cares about no one but the mcanns  brenda  didnt  deserve    anything    like she got  imo

I don't see the point of putting anyone on "Ignore."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
I don't see the point of putting anyone on "Ignore."

Neither do I.
It's akin to sticking ones fingers in one's ears and saying I'm not listening.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 04, 2018, 05:08:30 PM
I don't see the point of putting anyone on "Ignore."

I assume that quotes by ignored persons embedded within other posts can still be seen?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 04, 2018, 05:10:02 PM
I assume that quotes by ignored persons embedded within other posts can still be seen?

Yes they can, so really no point.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 04, 2018, 05:13:21 PM
Some people think Brenda deserved to be outed... I would like to see further abusers outed

People are entitled to their anonymity in this country if they so wish so any news organisation breaching it must be damn sure they are on solid ground. What BL took part in might have been morally questionable but it was not illegal.  Are we now to consider Sky News and the BBC to be the upholders of our moral conscience now?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 05:20:32 PM
People are entitled to their anonymity in this country if they so wish so any news organisation breaching it must be damn sure they are on solid ground. What BL took part in might have been morally questionable but it was not illegal.  Are we now to consider Sky News and the BBC to be the upholders of our moral conscience now?
Did the papers act illegally... No...Brenda made abusive tweets... They have every right to report it... In what way do people have a right to anonymity.... Did the papers tell any lies about brenda.. No..
Sky felt it was newsworthy... I find online abuse such as this a disgrace.... I think abusers need to be outed.... Well done SKY... IMO.... They weren't to know how unstable brenda was
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 05:23:09 PM
The problem was brenda, was IMO, thoroughly  ashamed at what she, had posted... And so she, should have been
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 04, 2018, 05:25:54 PM
Did the papers act illegally... No...Brenda made abusive tweets... They have every right to report it... In what way do people have a right to anonymity.... Did the papers tell any lies about brenda.. No..
Sky felt it was newsworthy... I find online abuse such as this a disgrace.... I think abusers need to be outed.... Well done SKY... IMO.... They weren't to know how unstable brenda was

All the more reason they should have let her be. You only need to look at Sir Cliff Richard now after the BBC did their worst to ruin him.  He was fine before they got involved and now he is a shadow of himself.  No pun intended.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 05:32:17 PM
The problem with the dossier compilers and Sky is that they thought the public shared their opinions about online trolling of the McCanns.

The truth was that the public didn't care;

In September 2007 only 20% of the UK population thought the McCanns were blameless.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1663733,00.html
What a strange conclusion to draw, particularly using an opinion poll from a time when even supporters like myself thought there must be something in the allegations bring made against them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 05:35:03 PM
All the more reason they should have let her be. You only need to look at Sir Cliff Richard now after the BBC did their worst to ruin him.  He was fine before they got involved and now he is a shadow of himself.  No pun intended.

But Brenda wasn't fine before she became involved in her abuse of the McCanns.
She had many, many problems, all of which would have contributed to her decision to end her own life

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 05:35:16 PM
All the more reason they should have let her be. You only need to look at Sir Cliff Richard now after the BBC did their worst to ruin him.  He was fine before they got involved and now he is a shadow of himself.  No pun intended.

Let her be to carry on posting vile abuse... Certainly not... Abuse such as brenda posted is wrong and needs to be stopped imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 05:38:13 PM
People are entitled to their anonymity in this country if they so wish so any news organisation breaching it must be damn sure they are on solid ground. What BL took part in might have been morally questionable but it was not illegal.  Are we now to consider Sky News and the BBC to be the upholders of our moral conscience now?

If your child was being subjected to abuse on social media, not criminal but morally reprehensible, would you expect your child's school to be the upholder of our moral conscience or do nothing?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 05:43:11 PM
There’s another dossier in the news today, what do our dossier dissers think of this?  As they mostly seem to be Corbynistas, they’re probably just as outraged, but before anyone shouts “what”s the relevance”, it’s a dossier of hateful online tweets, posts and comments collected by concerned individual(s), handed to the Met who are investigating it, meanwhile the contents have been leaked to the media...

From the Times:

“Scotland Yard will investigate a leaked dossier of [ censored word]emitism allegations against Labour members after a former senior policeman said many constituted hate crimes.

The document with details of 45 Labour members accused of [ censored word]emitism was leaked to LBC.

It includes allegations that a Labour councillor inflicted “ten years of hell” on a child by calling him a “Jew boy”, while another member posted Facebook comments including: “We shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on us all” and “as for the Jews, red see [sic] ideal destination no need for gas chambers anyway as gas is so expensive and we need it in England”

So, will there be lots of weeping and wailing on here when these Labour members are named and shamed?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 05:43:58 PM
If your child was being subjected to abuse on social media, not criminal but morally reprehensible, would you expect your child's school to be the upholder of our moral conscience or do nothing?

What about bullying... Name calling.... Is that OK... Towards children at school... Should schols treat it as freedom of speech.... That is the message being sent out to bullies here
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 05:50:17 PM
A good comment I agree with which appears under the Times article I mention d above:

“Ridiculous - RIP free speech in this country.

The people making the vile comments against Jews as reported above should be publicly exposed and denounced in the media. However, illegality of speech must only be established where threats of violence are concerned otherwise you are destroying free speech - however obnoxious - which is the fundamental pillar of our democracy”.

Quite right - name and shame in the media, and don’t bother the police at all, unless it’s a very serious threat of violence. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 05:50:29 PM
What about bullying... Name calling.... Is that OK... Towards children at school... Should schols treat it as freedom of speech.... That is the message being sent out to bullies here

Even outwith the playground, when the abuse is on social media and even though the abuse is not criminal, schools are expected to be the upholders of our moral conscience.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 06:12:57 PM
A good comment I agree with which appears under the Times article I mention d above:

“Ridiculous - RIP free speech in this country.

The people making the vile comments against Jews as reported above should be publicly exposed and denounced in the media. However, illegality of speech must only be established where threats of violence are concerned otherwise you are destroying free speech - however obnoxious - which is the fundamental pillar of our democracy”.

Quite right - name and shame in the media, and don’t bother the police at all, unless it’s a very serious threat of violence.

Did you notice the caveat? It has to be illegal, not just obnoxious.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 06:16:36 PM
There’s another dossier in the news today, what do our dossier dissers think of this?  As they mostly seem to be Corbynistas, they’re probably just as outraged, but before anyone shouts “what”s the relevance”, it’s a dossier of hateful online tweets, posts and comments collected by concerned individual(s), handed to the Met who are investigating it, meanwhile the contents have been leaked to the media...

From the Times:

“Scotland Yard will investigate a leaked dossier of [ censored word]emitism allegations against Labour members after a former senior policeman said many constituted hate crimes.

The document with details of 45 Labour members accused of [ censored word]emitism was leaked to LBC.

It includes allegations that a Labour councillor inflicted “ten years of hell” on a child by calling him a “Jew boy”, while another member posted Facebook comments including: “We shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on us all” and “as for the Jews, red see [sic] ideal destination no need for gas chambers anyway as gas is so expensive and we need it in England”

So, will there be lots of weeping and wailing on here when these Labour members are named and shamed?

This will be dealt with by the police and if any law has been broken, which I suspect there has, the politicians will be named. That is how the law works. It might not be immediate enough for some but that’s just too bad.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
Did you notice the caveat? It has to be illegal, not just obnoxious.

So freedom of the dossier complilers... And the press.... However obnoxious... Perhaps it's you who is missing the point
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 04, 2018, 06:18:18 PM
The McCann case isn't headline news these days. It isn't heading up a google search on the news page but I agree it is newsworthy.  However is a woman who made 4500 tweets (or so) some about the McCann case newsworthy enough to have a rolling video of her being accosted by Martin Brunt outside her home on Sky News for hours, having screaming headlines from pretty much every other media outlet for days.

Was nothing else happening in the news for those days? It would appear so. All because one lady made 4500 tweets, which probably hardly anyone read, and some about the McCanns.

Have you ever given thought as to why if as you opine, the McCann case is no longer headline news twitter users continue to tweet obsessively about them just as Brenda Leyland did?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 06:19:36 PM
The problem was brenda, was IMO, thoroughly  ashamed at what she, had posted... And so she, should have been

Can you provide a cite that Brenda was ashamed of what she had posted. I am sure she was incredibly upset and embarrassed by the mass media scrum but ashamed? I can't find a quote where she said that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on September 04, 2018, 06:20:14 PM
Have you ever given thought as to why if as you opine, the McCann case is no longer headline news twitter users continue to tweet obsessively about them just as Brenda Leyland did?

Of course there are not supporters joining in.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 06:21:41 PM
Can you provide a cite that Brenda was ashamed of what she had posted. I am sure she was incredibly upset and embarrassed by the mass media scrum but ashamed? I can't find a quote where she said that.

Have you provided the cite I asked of you this morning
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 06:22:15 PM
There’s another dossier in the news today, what do our dossier dissers think of this?  As they mostly seem to be Corbynistas, they’re probably just as outraged, but before anyone shouts “what”s the relevance”, it’s a dossier of hateful online tweets, posts and comments collected by concerned individual(s), handed to the Met who are investigating it, meanwhile the contents have been leaked to the media...

From the Times:

“Scotland Yard will investigate a leaked dossier of [ censored word]emitism allegations against Labour members after a former senior policeman said many constituted hate crimes.

The document with details of 45 Labour members accused of [ censored word]emitism was leaked to LBC.

It includes allegations that a Labour councillor inflicted “ten years of hell” on a child by calling him a “Jew boy”, while another member posted Facebook comments including: “We shall rid the Jews who are a cancer on us all” and “as for the Jews, red see [sic] ideal destination no need for gas chambers anyway as gas is so expensive and we need it in England”

So, will there be lots of weeping and wailing on here when these Labour members are named and shamed?

Will the Labour members be doorstepped on Sky news with rolling videos showing the doorstepping every hour. Will each one be subject to dozens of news reports naming them and giving their address whilst calling them a trxll?

So far we have a document passed to the police and the police are checking out if a hate crime was made by anyone. That is the way it should be. No names necessary IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 06:22:37 PM
This will be dealt with by the police and if any law has been broken, which I suspect there has, the politicians will be named. That is how the law works. It might not be immediate enough for some but that’s just too bad.
And if the media names those responsible for some of the vile behaviour before the police do that will be a problem because...?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 06:23:13 PM
Have you provided the cite I asked of you this morning

Could you remind me of what it was as I probably went out before you posted it.  Then I will see what I can do for you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 06:23:54 PM
Can you provide a cite that Brenda was ashamed of what she had posted. I am sure she was incredibly upset and embarrassed by the mass media scrum but ashamed? I can't find a quote where she said that.
Why would she be embarrassed if she felt her behaviour was something to be proud of?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 06:25:26 PM
Will the Labour members be doorstepped on Sky news with rolling videos showing the doorstepping every hour. Will each one be subject to dozens of news reports naming them and giving their address whilst calling them a trxll?

So far we have a document passed to the police and the police are checking out if a hate crime was made by anyone. That is the way it should be. No names necessary IMO.
If they are named and shamed by the media, and doorstepped then I won’t have any problem with it whatsoever.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 06:25:40 PM
And if the media names those responsible for some of the vile behaviour before the police do that will be a problem because...?

Because that’s why we have due process. So people are considered innocent until they are proved to be guilty. Isn’t that what supporters want ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 06:26:42 PM
Have you ever given thought as to why if as you opine, the McCann case is no longer headline news twitter users continue to tweet obsessively about them just as Brenda Leyland did?

Probably because the McCanns are still actively suing Goncalo Amaral even though it would appear they have lost. IA lot of sceptics are Amaral supporters so this could well be the reason, that and the fact that there are supporters actively tweeting on the subject and some of them are very abusive IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 06:30:37 PM
Probably because the McCanns are still actively suing Goncalo Amaral even though it would appear they have lost. IA lot of sceptics are Amaral supporters so this could well be the reason, that and the fact that there are supporters actively tweeting on the subject and some of them are very abusive IMO.

McCann's actively suing amaral... No they are not... Citr
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 06:30:49 PM
Probably because the McCanns are still actively suing Goncalo Amaral even though it would appear they have lost. IA lot of sceptics are Amaral supporters so this could well be the reason, that and the fact that there are supporters actively tweeting on the subject and some of them are very abusive IMO.

I can well imagine some of the Amaral supporters being very abusive.imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 06:31:13 PM
Could you remind me of what it was as I probably went out before you posted it.  Then I will see what I can do for you.

Look back to this morning
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 06:31:45 PM
I can well imagine some of the Amaral supporters being very abusive.imo

No need. He won   8(*(
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 06:32:55 PM
No need. He won   8(*(

No, Some of the Amaral supporters are very abusive imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 06:35:11 PM
Because that’s why we have due process. So people are considered innocent until they are proved to be guilty. Isn’t that what supporters want ?

The McCanns have never had the slightest hint of being considered innocent until proven guilty by many, including Brenda.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 06:36:34 PM
Because that’s why we have due process. So people are considered innocent until they are proved to be guilty. Isn’t that what supporters want ?
If you have a named individual spouting hateful drivel on his or her social media pages  and that is picked up by the media, then there is no question of the drivel writer possibly being innocent is there? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 06:37:10 PM
Why would she be embarrassed if she felt her behaviour was something to be proud of?

You wouldn't want to have your identity all over the media your address and photograph everywhere. To be called a trxll and have your personality dissected by people such as Carole Malone.  Say you were tweeting about justice for the Hillsborough victims prior to their vindication and the media did what they did to Brenda.

Wouldn't you be embarrassed even though you may have believed what you were doing was right?

I don't agree with Brenda's tweets but I think what happened to her was very wrong.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 06:39:08 PM
McCann's actively suing amaral... No they are not... Citr

OK they are not actively suing as they lost. But you yourself provide the cite that they are attempting to take it to the ECHR so they are still visiting court regarding Amaral IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 06:42:55 PM
OK they are not actively suing as they lost. But you yourself provide the cite that they are attempting to take it to the ECHR so they are still visiting court regarding Amaral IMO

Technically, they've submitted an application to the Court. No personal appearances allowed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 06:45:42 PM
You wouldn't want to have your identity all over the media your address and photograph everywhere. To be called a trxll and have your personality dissected by people such as Carole Malone.  Say you were tweeting about justice for the Hillsborough victims prior to their vindication and the media did what they did to Brenda.

Wouldn't you be embarrassed even though you may have believed what you were doing was right?

I don't agree with Brenda's tweets but I think what happened to her was very wrong.
Why would I be embarrassed about the media picking up on me tweeting about justice for the Hillsborough victims?  That’s not a hateful, spiteful, bullying thing to do is it?  Carole Malone would ‘t be justified in describing me as a troll with personality issues for doing so would she?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 06:57:04 PM
So freedom of the dossier complilers... And the press.... However obnoxious... Perhaps it's you who is missing the point

I have missed nothing. The person commenting wanted only those who had committed crimes to be named. If they did commit crimes no doubt they will be.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 07:02:05 PM
The McCanns have never had the slightest hint of being considered innocent until proven guilty by many, including Brenda.

They are in the eyes of the law and that’s what matters.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:10:22 PM
If your child was being subjected to abuse on social media, not criminal but morally reprehensible, would you expect your child's school to be the upholder of our moral conscience or do nothing?

It is up to the site owners to manage abuse but obviously the dollar is more important to sites like Twitter and Facebook which says it all.  These giants should be fined by the regulators and maybe then they might take notice.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:12:13 PM
They are in the eyes of the law and that’s what matters.

So the various sites dedicated to spreading the word of their guilt don't matter.
The tweets spreading the lies don't matter.
I can't agree.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 07:12:24 PM
It is up to the site owners to manage abuse but obviously the dollar is more important to sites like Twitter and Facebook which says it all.  These giants should be fined by the regulators and maybe then they might take notice.

Are their servers with UK jurisdiction ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:14:40 PM
What about bullying... Name calling.... Is that OK... Towards children at school... Should schols treat it as freedom of speech.... That is the message being sent out to bullies here

Wrong as usual.  The message being sent out from here is that abuse, all abuse, is wrong and must be stopped by social media sites.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 07:15:40 PM
So the various sites dedicated to spreading the word of their guilt don't matter.
The tweets spreading the lies don't matter.
I can't agree.

To the McCanns innocence in the eyes of the law ? No.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
It is up to the site owners to manage abuse but obviously the dollar is more important to sites like Twitter and Facebook which says it all.  These giants should be fined by the regulators and maybe then they might take notice.

No the schools take action, they cannot wait for the site owners to do so.
Therefore schools have to uphold the moral conscience.

The schools cannot wait to see if this abuse becomes criminal abuse.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:17:03 PM
A good comment I agree with which appears under the Times article I mention d above:

“Ridiculous - RIP free speech in this country.

The people making the vile comments against Jews as reported above should be publicly exposed and denounced in the media. However, illegality of speech must only be established where threats of violence are concerned otherwise you are destroying free speech - however obnoxious - which is the fundamental pillar of our democracy”.

Quite right - name and shame in the media, and don’t bother the police at all, unless it’s a very serious threat of violence.

They should be prosecuted for hate crimes. End off!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:20:55 PM
To the McCanns innocence in the eyes of the law ? No.

Do you ever wonder if the McCanns were charged with a crime, could they possibly receive a fair trial.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 07:21:38 PM
No the schools take action, they cannot wait for the site owners to do so.
Therefore schools have to uphold the moral conscience.

The schools cannot wait to see if this abuse becomes criminal abuse.

What have schools to do with Brenda's rights ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:22:21 PM
Wrong as usual.  The message being sent out from here is that abuse, all abuse, is wrong and must be stopped by social media sites.

the sites wont stop it...the police wont stop it...so how do you stop it...

name and shame....simple
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:22:44 PM
Wrong as usual.  The message being sent out from here is that abuse, all abuse, is wrong and must be stopped by social media sites.

But if social media sites do nothing, then pressure must be brought by the public to highlight the abuse on twitter and Facebook.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:22:59 PM
What have schools to do with Brenda's rights ?

because children copy adults behaviour
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:24:21 PM
What have schools to do with Brenda's rights ?

I don't think schools have anything to do with Brenda's rights or the McCann's rights.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 07:24:29 PM
Do you ever wonder if the McCanns were charged with a crime, could they possibly receive a fair trial.

But you think they never will be so what’s the point of whatifery.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:25:06 PM
Probably because the McCanns are still actively suing Goncalo Amaral even though it would appear they have lost. IA lot of sceptics are Amaral supporters so this could well be the reason, that and the fact that there are supporters actively tweeting on the subject and some of them are very abusive IMO.

The ECHR case has no bearing on the Supreme Court's final judgement, that libel case is ended.  The parents have no live proceedings ongoing in relation to Goncalo Amaral.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:25:16 PM
But you think they never will be so what’s the point of whatifery.

I thought you did.
So that's why I asked you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 07:25:44 PM
I don't think schools have anything to do with Brenda's rights or the McCann's rights.

So why mention them?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:28:20 PM
So why mention them?

Can't be bothered explaining.
Perhaps if you read back you will understand.
If you don't, then I still can't be bothered explaining.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:30:02 PM
If you have a named individual spouting hateful drivel on his or her social media pages  and that is picked up by the media, then there is no question of the drivel writer possibly being innocent is there?

As already pointed out, the parents don't use social media publicly so they never received any abuse on twitter.  Try this one out for size Vertigo, go out into the middle of a very large empty field and shout abuse to everyone to your heart's content.  Was anyone offended?

Now apply this to Brenda's tweets. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:34:21 PM
OK they are not actively suing as they lost. But you yourself provide the cite that they are attempting to take it to the ECHR so they are still visiting court regarding Amaral IMO

No.  The ECHR case is McCanns against the State of Portugal.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 07:35:01 PM
I thought you did.
So that's why I asked you.

My opinion is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:35:44 PM
As already pointed out, the parents don't use social media publicly so they never received any abuse on twitter.  Try this one out for size Vertigo, go out into the middle of a very large empty field and shout abuse to everyone to your heart's content.  Was anyone offended?

Now apply this to Brenda's tweets.

Why would you want to?
To make you feel better?
Is that why Brenda did it?


The tweets to the McCanns were read by others who were offended by them

I know it is a deeply unpopular thought with some to feel offence on behalf of others, but I think it is a very natural and human feeling .
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:37:08 PM
My opinion is irrelevant.

Now that is a quote I may use at a later time.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 07:39:40 PM
All opinion on here  is ultimately irrelevant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:39:53 PM
the sites wont stop it...the police wont stop it...so how do you stop it...

name and shame....simple

The government could stop it if they really wanted to by penalising sites which failed to control abuse.  Users can be blocked permanently if need be.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:42:17 PM
All opinion on here  is ultimately irrelevant.


Agreed.
However I thought it an interesting question.
Obviously not.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:43:55 PM
Why would you want to?
To make you feel better?
Is that why Brenda did it?


The tweets to the McCanns were read by others who were offended by them

I know it is a deeply unpopular thought with some to feel offence on behalf of others, but I think it is a very natural and human feeling .

Point being they don't have to read them if they weren't sent to them.  You would only have seen BL's posts if you went looking or someone else sent them to you.  The McCanns took a decision not to do social media publicly for those very reasons.  No doubt they interact privately with close family members on these sites as is everyone's right.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 07:44:13 PM
The government could stop it if they really wanted to by penalising sites which failed to control abuse.  Users can be blocked permanently if need be.

With multiple accounts and proxy servers, how would you do this?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 07:44:23 PM
As already pointed out, the parents don't use social media publicly so they never received any abuse on twitter.  Try this one out for size Vertigo, go out into the middle of a very large empty field and shout abuse to everyone to your heart's content.  Was anyone offended?

Now apply this to Brenda's tweets.
Twitter is not a large empty field.  Now try your analogy but change field to library or restaurant or pub, wearing a balaclava.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
As already pointed out, the parents don't use social media publicly so they never received any abuse on twitter.  Try this one out for size Vertigo, go out into the middle of a very large empty field and shout abuse to everyone to your heart's content.  Was anyone offended?

Now apply this to Brenda's tweets.

The field was full of people... Make your mind up...
Brendas tweets, were offensive.. You agreed... The only way to stop them was by going to the press
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:50:51 PM
Point being they don't have to read them if they weren't sent to them.  You would only have seen BL's posts if you went looking or someone else sent them to you.



Are you saying it doesn't matter if only a few people read abuse directed at a named person?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:50:56 PM
With multiple accounts and proxy servers, how would you do this?

Court order.  Everybody who goes on line can be traced by one means or another.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:53:01 PM


Are you saying it doesn't matter if only a few people read abuse directed at a named person?

It is the individual's choice, nobody is forced to go on twitter and read abusive posts.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 04, 2018, 07:54:31 PM
The field was full of people... Make your mind up...
Brendas twwrs, were offensive.. You agreed... The only way to stop them was by going to the oress

Absolutely not.  Going to the press ended in her death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:55:06 PM
It is the individual's choice, nobody is forced to go on twitter and read abusive posts.

and its an individuals choice to take concerns to the press...in effect it doesnt matter what posters say here ...the compilers had every legal right to go the press...teh press had every legal right to doorstep brenda...lets hope more abusers are outed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
Absolutely not.  Going to the press ended in her death.

...only because she was suffering from mental illness in the first place...no ones fault
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 04, 2018, 07:58:01 PM
and its an individuals choice to take concerns to the press
and its an individuals choice to take her own life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 07:58:18 PM
Court order.  Everybody who goes on line can be traced by one means or another.


But while you wait for this to happen , what can be done meantime.
Schools cannot wait until this happens, they have to deal with bullying and abuse , even though the abuse is not criminal.
Highlighting the abuse at assemblies, writing to parents to inform them of the abuse.

Actually if the schools do nothing, and the abuse is not  deemed to be criminal, then I would expect parents to contact the press.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: jassi on September 04, 2018, 07:59:20 PM
It is the individual's choice, nobody is forced to go on twitter and read abusive posts.

Or even to be offended on behalf of others.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 07:59:36 PM
and its an individuals choice to take her own life.

of course ...it a was brendas choice
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 08:00:36 PM
Absolutely not.  Going to the press ended in her death.

In truth you cannot make that statement.
She had multiple difficulties in her life which have been mentioned before and she had attempted suicide before.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 08:04:06 PM
Or even to be offended on behalf of others.

Indeed.
Some do and some don't.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 08:05:17 PM
Or even to be offended on behalf of others.

seems there are a lot offended on behalf of brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 08:06:16 PM


Davel do you think the dossier collectors went to the media with the dossier because the police had already said a law had not been broken?

You seem to think the media is the only way to go not to the police.

If the police had had a quiet word with Brenda she probably would have gone away so to speak and could well be still alive.  Or didn't that suit the dossier makers purpose?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 08:09:48 PM
Absolutely not.  Going to the press ended in her death.
Some people commit suicide when their partners end their relationship.  Does that mean no one should ever end a relationship for fear it might end in a death, and that breaking up with someone is reprehensible and immoral behaviour? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 08:12:28 PM
Davel do you think the dossier collectors went to the media with the dossier because the police had already said a law had not been broken?

You seem to think the media is the only way to go not to the police.

If the police had had a quiet word with Brenda she probably would have gone away so to speak and could well be still alive.  Or didn't that suit the dossier makers purpose?

perhaps the dossier makers thought brenda deserved maximum exposure........in order to curb bullying and abuse online....I cant help but agree with them...lets have an end to abuse and bullying

brenda had no thoughts whatsoever for the  mccanns feelings...why should she expect any for herself
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 09:01:32 PM
The field was full of people... Make your mind up...
Brendas tweets, were offensive.. You agreed... The only way to stop them was by going to the press

They stopped one person. They can pat themselves on the back for that I suppose. I'm surprised they didn't abandon their anonymity to receive the thanks of a grateful public in their own names. Remaining hidden makes it seem like they were ashamed in my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 09:03:33 PM
They stopped one person. They can pat themselves on the back for that I suppose. I'm surprised they didn't abandon their anonymity to receive the thanks of a grateful public in their own names. Remaining hidden makes it seem like they were ashamed in my opinion.

in your opinion...we dont know how they feel ...If i was one of the I certainly would not feel in any way to blame for brendas death.....if you expect compassion in times of difficulty it might be an idea to show some to others...brenda showed none
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 09:05:32 PM
The McCanns are innocent in the eyes of the law.

Brenda Leyland was innocent in the eyes of the law.

Their hounding was wrong.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 09:07:41 PM
The McCanns are innocent in the eyes of the law.

Brenda Leyland was innocent in the eyes of the law.

Their hounding was wrong.

Brendas hounding was absolutely wrong...the mccanns didnt hound brenda...she hounded the mccanns...im glad you agree
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 09:18:48 PM
Brendas hounding was absolutely wrong...the mccanns didnt hound brenda...she hounded the mccanns...im glad you agree

Yes Brenda’s hounding was wrong.

Brenda was  morally wrong to tweet some of the things she did.

The McCanns were morally wrong to leave three under 4s in an unlocked apartment.

Neither Brenda’s or the McCanns actions were criminal.

Both contributed to their own predicament.

Neither deserved to be hounded.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 09:25:54 PM
Yes Brenda’s hounding was wrong.

Brenda was  morally wrong to tweet some of the things she did.

The McCanns were morally wrong to leave three under 4s in an unlocked apartment.

Neither Brenda’s or the McCanns actions were criminal.

Both contributed to their own predicament.

Neither deserved to be hounded.

The question still remains of why Brenda and others felt the need to hound the McCanns.
The why remains a puzzle.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 09:36:21 PM
Brenda did not contact the McCanns. You cannot hound someone you have no contact with.

Martin Brunt and supporters directly hounded Brenda both on Twitter and through the media.

There is a difference.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 04, 2018, 09:37:34 PM
Brenda did not contact the McCanns. You cannot hound someone you have no contact with.

Martin Brunt and supporters directly hounded Brenda both on Twitter and through the media.

There is a difference.

Brenda hounded the McCann's.. Stop making excuses for her abusive behaviour
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 09:39:51 PM
The question still remains of why Brenda and others felt the need to hound the McCanns.
The why remains a puzzle.

The McCanns were hounded by the press. Brenda and others tweeted rather nasty opinions. They did not hound them as the McCanns were unaware of their comments.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 09:44:56 PM
The McCanns were hounded by the press. Brenda and others tweeted rather nasty opinions. They did not hound them as the McCanns were unaware of their comments.
Brenda wrote abusive tweets addressing the McCanns directly which suggests she hoped her hateful messages would reach them.  She also actively engaged in the intimidation and bullying of a woman she believed to be Amy Tierney.  No more excuses please.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 09:47:05 PM
Brenda hounded the McCann's.. Stop making excuses for her abusive behaviour

I’m making no excuses. Brenda tweeted some nasty comments about the McCanns. They did not see them so couldn't possibly feel hounded by them.

Brenda tweeted some nasty opinions. She was however innocent in the eyes of the law.
The McCanns left three babies alone in an unlocked apartment. They are however innocent in the eyes of the law.

Their position is comparable. Both were morally wrong but legally innocent.

Neither deserved to be hounded by the press for their failures.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 04, 2018, 09:50:46 PM
To be charged under any applicable law then tried and sentenced as that law demands. If there is no evidence of a crime having been committed show over.
The same as would apply to everyone else in England and Wales.
Unless you, in common with a lot of posters on here, believe the law is only for people you like and with whom you share a common opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 09:50:55 PM
Brenda wrote abusive tweets addressing the McCanns directly which suggests she hoped her hateful messages would reach them.  She also actively engaged in the intimidation and bullying of a woman she believed to be Amy Tierney.  No more excuses please.

But they didn’t reach them so they can’t have felt hounded.

Supporters engaged in the very same sort of bullying and intimidation against Brenda.  It was tit for tat with, it would appear, the AT person willingly taking part.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 10:14:25 PM
The question still remains of why Brenda and others felt the need to hound the McCanns.
The why remains a puzzle.

It seems to have escaped some people's notice that their opinion of the McCanns isn't shared by everyone. Therefore their 'outrage' on the McCann's behalf isn't shared by everyone either.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 10:18:12 PM
But they didn’t reach them so they can’t have felt hounded.

Supporters engaged in the very same sort of bullying and intimidation against Brenda.  It was tit for tat with, it would appear, the AT person willingly taking part.
It’s immaterial that the McCanns may not have seen Brenda’s tweets, what does matter is what Brenda intended.  She intended to write abusive tweets, she addressed some of these to the McCanns which suggests she wanted them to know what she thought of them.  IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 10:20:13 PM
It seems to have escaped some people's notice that their opinion of the McCanns isn't shared by everyone. Therefore their 'outrage' on the McCann's behalf isn't shared by everyone either.
There’s a difference between simply being critical of and not liking the McCanns and regularly and for many years repeating the same contemptuous criticism on social media.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 04, 2018, 10:25:18 PM
Claire Hardacre of the Guardian disagrees with the dossierres and Martin Brunt

Snipped from a much longer article - here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/was-brenda-leyland-really-a-troll-mccanns

But what was she actually dishing out? Looking over the 5,000-plus tweets from her @sweepyface account, there is clearly a fixation – even an unsettling obsession with the McCanns. She describes them as neglectful parents, objects to their ongoing media appearances, and complains that they are profiting from their daughter’s disappearance. And when people challenge her, she calls them unpleasant names, disputes their evidence and blocks them. In short, her conduct would aggravate some and deeply offend others – but much the same could be said of select comedians, journalists and celebrities who can reach millions. Leyland’s account had a mere 182 followers by the time it suddenly vanished. The crucial question is: did she incite others to harm the McCanns? Or threaten to abduct the McCanns’ other children? Or pose any clear menace?

On Twitter at least it doesn’t seem so. She regularly tweeted the Metropolitan police and Crimewatch, demanding they do more. She would highlight what she felt were untruths in the stories of major press outlets such as the Daily Mail. She railed at media outlets such as LBC for not airing what she felt was the other side of the story. And at the same time, she ensconced herself within a small network of other Twitter users who supported her, agreed with her, and perhaps gave her a sense of identity and importance as a figurehead campaigning for what she believed was justice for Madeleine.


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 04, 2018, 10:25:45 PM
IMO Brenda didn’t write abusive tweets. Reading the reports on them they are little different from the statements made by both sides on here. I think describing them as abusive is a strawman to justify the outing and the subsequent death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 10:27:28 PM
It seems to have escaped some people's notice that their opinion of the McCanns isn't shared by everyone. Therefore their 'outrage' on the McCann's behalf isn't shared by everyone either.

No it hasn't escaped my notice at all.
The discussion and questioning of the facts surrounding Madeleine's disappearance I can understand but why some see the need to post some dreadful posts and tweets I do not understand.
I won't list again the activities of some "researchers" but again why?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 10:28:04 PM
It’s immaterial that the McCanns may not have seen Brenda’s tweets, what does matter is what Brenda intended.  She intended to write abusive tweets, she addressed some of these to the McCanns which suggests she wanted them to know what she thought of them.  IMO.

But they didn’t see them so could not have felt hounded.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 10:32:33 PM
But they didn’t see them so could not have felt hounded.

But again you ignore the fact that others can and may feel outraged .
If you read a cruel or abusive post on a named person, does it not bother you at all?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 04, 2018, 10:32:49 PM
Claire Hardacre of the Guardian disagrees with the dossierres and Martin Brunt

Snipped from a much longer article - here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/was-brenda-leyland-really-a-troll-mccanns

But what was she actually dishing out? Looking over the 5,000-plus tweets from her @sweepyface account, there is clearly a fixation – even an unsettling obsession with the McCanns. She describes them as neglectful parents, objects to their ongoing media appearances, and complains that they are profiting from their daughter’s disappearance. And when people challenge her, she calls them unpleasant names, disputes their evidence and blocks them. In short, her conduct would aggravate some and deeply offend others – but much the same could be said of select comedians, journalists and celebrities who can reach millions. Leyland’s account had a mere 182 followers by the time it suddenly vanished. The crucial question is: did she incite others to harm the McCanns? Or threaten to abduct the McCanns’ other children? Or pose any clear menace?

On Twitter at least it doesn’t seem so. She regularly tweeted the Metropolitan police and Crimewatch, demanding they do more. She would highlight what she felt were untruths in the stories of major press outlets such as the Daily Mail. She railed at media outlets such as LBC for not airing what she felt was the other side of the story. And at the same time, she ensconced herself within a small network of other Twitter users who supported her, agreed with her, and perhaps gave her a sense of identity and importance as a figurehead campaigning for what she believed was justice for Madeleine.


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.

Thanks, Sunny.

That is not an unfair assessment of the situation.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 10:46:12 PM
No it hasn't escaped my notice at all.
The discussion and questioning of the facts surrounding Madeleine's disappearance I can understand but why some see the need to post some dreadful posts and tweets I do not understand.
I won't list again the activities of some "researchers" but again why?

This case has aroused strong emotions in some people. Some seem to be 'outraged' that the McCanns have, in their opinion, got away with something. Others are 'outraged' because they see an innocent and bereft, in their opinion, family being questioned and denigrated. Insults are hurled by both sides and both are as bad as each other in my opinion. .
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 10:52:47 PM
This case has aroused strong emotions in some people. Some seem to be 'outraged' that the McCanns have, in their opinion, got away with something. Others are 'outraged' because they see an innocent and bereft, in their opinion, family being questioned and denigrated. Insults are hurled by both sides and both are as bad as each other in my opinion. .

But which came first?
If I hadn't read the Sky forum where the outrage of those who believed the McCanns had got away with something and the expressions of this outrage were indeed outrageous, then I would never have responded.
So which came first.The attack or the defence.?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 10:54:21 PM
There’s a difference between simply being critical of and not liking the McCanns and regularly and for many years repeating the same contemptuous criticism on social media.

Likewise with Goncalo Amaral.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 10:55:51 PM
But they didn’t see them so could not have felt hounded.
You said that already and ignored my reply.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 04, 2018, 11:05:08 PM
Likewise with Goncalo Amaral.

There has been criticism  of Amaral and insults given but are there any Facebook sites or indeed any site solely dedicated to being critical of Amaral?
Every time anything related to the McCanns is published in a newspaper, the comments surge in with the usual contempt.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 04, 2018, 11:22:10 PM
There has been criticism  of Amaral and insults given but are there any Facebook sites or indeed any site solely dedicated to being critical of Amaral?
Every time anything related to the McCanns is published in a newspaper, the comments surge in with the usual contempt.

Yes, the newspapers are allowing comments again. Carter-Ruck stopped that for a while, I believe.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 11:27:00 PM
But again you ignore the fact that others can and may feel outraged .
If you read a cruel or abusive post on a named person, does it not bother you at all?


I don’t ignore it, it’s simply irrelevant.

A cruel or abusive post against someone I do not know may make me stop and tut a little but I would never feel that it was my mission to seek revenge for the post. That really is obsessive.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 11:28:57 PM
You said that already and ignored my reply.

I didn’t ignore your reply, it simply didn’t alter my previous reply.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 11:32:09 PM
I didn’t ignore your reply, it simply didn’t alter my previous reply.
So you think Brenda’s intentions are irrelevant to the issue?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 11:34:13 PM
So you think Brenda’s intentions are irrelevant to the issue?

Unless her intentions were illegal, yes.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2018, 11:46:03 PM
Unless her intentions were illegal, yes.
Then apply this same rationale to the dossier compilers and bring this discussion  to a close.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 04, 2018, 11:47:43 PM
No the schools take action, they cannot wait for the site owners to do so.
Therefore schools have to uphold the moral conscience.

The schools cannot wait to see if this abuse becomes criminal abuse.
Sorry, but from personal experience that is utter nonsense.   *&^^&
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 04, 2018, 11:50:06 PM

I don’t ignore it, it’s simply irrelevant.

A cruel or abusive post against someone I do not know may make me stop and tut a little but I would never feel that it was my mission to seek revenge for the post. That really is obsessive.


exactly the mcanns  dont even probably  care 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 04, 2018, 11:52:02 PM
Then apply this same rationale to the dossier compilers and bring this discussion  to a close.

The discussion was Did Brenda Leyland have the right to due process. The answer is yes. Did she receive it ? The answer of course is no.

Conclusion: supporters ( including the dossier compilers ) insist on due process for the McCanns while denying it to Brenda Leyland.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 12:57:29 AM
Claire Hardacre of the Guardian disagrees with the dossierres and Martin Brunt

Snipped from a much longer article - here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/was-brenda-leyland-really-a-troll-mccanns

But what was she actually dishing out? Looking over the 5,000-plus tweets from her @sweepyface account, there is clearly a fixation – even an unsettling obsession with the McCanns. She describes them as neglectful parents, objects to their ongoing media appearances, and complains that they are profiting from their daughter’s disappearance. And when people challenge her, she calls them unpleasant names, disputes their evidence and blocks them. In short, her conduct would aggravate some and deeply offend others – but much the same could be said of select comedians, journalists and celebrities who can reach millions. Leyland’s account had a mere 182 followers by the time it suddenly vanished. The crucial question is: did she incite others to harm the McCanns? Or threaten to abduct the McCanns’ other children? Or pose any clear menace?

On Twitter at least it doesn’t seem so. She regularly tweeted the Metropolitan police and Crimewatch, demanding they do more. She would highlight what she felt were untruths in the stories of major press outlets such as the Daily Mail. She railed at media outlets such as LBC for not airing what she felt was the other side of the story. And at the same time, she ensconced herself within a small network of other Twitter users who supported her, agreed with her, and perhaps gave her a sense of identity and importance as a figurehead campaigning for what she believed was justice for Madeleine.


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.
The final straw - doesn't weight heavy but it tips the balance.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2018, 01:18:10 AM

I don’t ignore it, it’s simply irrelevant.

A cruel or abusive post against someone I do not know may make me stop and tut a little but I would never feel that it was my mission to seek revenge for the post. That really is obsessive.
I doubt very much if the rationale behind the compilation of the dossier was revenge.  In my opinion the dossier compilers simply wanted the torrents of abuse and persecution as exemplified by the many thousands of abusive posts directed at one named family to stop.


A psychiatrist who had treated Brenda Leyland in the past gave evidence to her inquest as follows:

Dr Z - Consultant Psychiatrist (he was not treating Brenda at the time of her death, but had seen her as a patient many years ago)

Brenda did have a mental health condition of recurrent depression and certain unstable emotional personality traits. He understood they were lifelong conditions.
It would not be obvious to others that she had a mental health condition. She was a very private person with complex psychological endowment. She had very contrasting emotions and conversations.

Coroner asked - did she always have full insight into her conversations?

Dr Z - yes, she would understand consequences of her actions. In discussions I think she flirted with talk of suicide.

He said he was not aware she had tried to take her own life in the past.

I've noted "suicidal tendencies".

Coroner - "But the risk of serious harm is always there?"

I've noted "not aware of any actions; risk of serious self-harm".

Dr Z - yes. He described her as an extremely intelligent lady.
Her reaction, could not have been expected by others. And with his knowledge it couldn't have been foreseen.

Coroner - her personality would be to trigger such events?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 06:20:33 AM
Sorry, but from personal experience that is utter nonsense.   *&^^&

Your personal experience may have been with a school which  has failed in its duty to help children who are being bullied but many schools here have good anti bullying policies.
In the past schools have not dealt well with bullying but now most schools have adopted strong anti bullying practices.
If not, then they will incur strong criticism from HMI.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 06:39:17 AM
Are there any here who are prone to suicidal tendencies? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:13:30 AM
Claire Hardacre of the Guardian disagrees with the dossierres and Martin Brunt

Snipped from a much longer article - here https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/was-brenda-leyland-really-a-troll-mccanns

But what was she actually dishing out? Looking over the 5,000-plus tweets from her @sweepyface account, there is clearly a fixation – even an unsettling obsession with the McCanns. She describes them as neglectful parents, objects to their ongoing media appearances, and complains that they are profiting from their daughter’s disappearance. And when people challenge her, she calls them unpleasant names, disputes their evidence and blocks them. In short, her conduct would aggravate some and deeply offend others – but much the same could be said of select comedians, journalists and celebrities who can reach millions. Leyland’s account had a mere 182 followers by the time it suddenly vanished. The crucial question is: did she incite others to harm the McCanns? Or threaten to abduct the McCanns’ other children? Or pose any clear menace?

On Twitter at least it doesn’t seem so. She regularly tweeted the Metropolitan police and Crimewatch, demanding they do more. She would highlight what she felt were untruths in the stories of major press outlets such as the Daily Mail. She railed at media outlets such as LBC for not airing what she felt was the other side of the story. And at the same time, she ensconced herself within a small network of other Twitter users who supported her, agreed with her, and perhaps gave her a sense of identity and importance as a figurehead campaigning for what she believed was justice for Madeleine.


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.

Spot on for once.  Brenda needed help, not public exposure on national TV.  It was the police's job to have had a word with her in the circumstances and not that of some would-be do-gooder dossier compilers or Sky News.  It was a disgrace that someone with recognised mental health issues was treated in such a despicable manner.  Some supporters appear to be ignorant of the fact that people with mental health problems do not think or act rationally. Brenda did not have a choice in what she did due to her illness, she deserved help and compassion and all she got then and even now is abuse by some who should really hang their heads in shame. Those who drove her to her death must be exposed imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:20:51 AM
Sorry, but from personal experience that is utter nonsense.   *&^^&

I agree. My brother is a teacher and he regularly complains that the school will not take a strong line on mobile phones in school.  Seems that headteachers and principals are more afraid of the parents these days to do very much.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:23:33 AM
Are there any here who are prone to suicidal tendencies?

I think that is a heartless question to ask Rob.

I also am intrigued that yourself and none of the supporters who have replied to my previous post have mentioned the final part of my quote by Claire Hardacre


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.


Claire Hardacre agreed with me that "a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice". Do you and others think it was the right way?

Brietta, whether or not Brenda had suicidal tendencies was almost certainly unknown to Brunt, the rest of the media that piled in to call her a trxll and also those who created the dossier. 

The result of the dossier and Martin Brunt (and the daily Mail story), led to a witch hunt on a massive scale that I cant remember seeing before and all because one woman made some tweets.  I do not deny they were abusive and deeply unpleasant but I believe that murders appear to get less media coverage than Brenda did.

I suppose all supporters are following Gerry McCanns' stance

“I’m glad to see the law around this area is being reviewed, but I do think we need to make examples of people who are causing damage.”

Personally I wish that Martin Brunt had found someone to make and "example of" one of who had posted the alleged threats to the family rather than a woman in her 60s who lived alone who did not.

Martin Brunt of course claims to be devastated by Brenda's death but it seems the supporters by and large on here were not (one in particular).

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:23:59 AM

exactly the mcanns  dont even probably  care

The dossier compilers have a case to answer imo and should be held to account.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:24:59 AM
Spot on for once.  Brenda needed help, not public exposure on national TV.  It was the police's job to have had a word with her in the circumstances and not that of some would-be do-gooder dossier compilers or Sky News.  It was a disgrace that someone with recognised mental health issues was treated in such a despicable manner.  Some supporters appear to be ignorant of the fact that people with mental health problems do not think or act rationally. Brenda did not have a choice in what she did due to her illness, she deserved help and compassion and all she got then and even now is abuse by some who should really hang their heads in shame. Those who drove her to her death must be exposed imo.

No one knew brenda had, mental health issues, apart from her family.... They are, the ones, who should have helped her....brenda was free to abuse... Sky was, free to name and shame her....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:25:58 AM
The dossier compilers have a case to answer imo and should be held to account.

Account for what... What laws, have they broken
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:26:47 AM
I think that is a heartless question to ask Rob.

I also am intrigued that yourself and none of the supporters who have replied to my previous post have mentioned the final part of my quote by Claire Hardacre


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.


Claire Hardacre agreed with me that "a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice". Do you and others think it was the right way?

Brietta, whether or not Brenda had suicidal tendencies was almost certainly unknown to Brunt, the rest of the media that piled in to call her a trxll and also those who created the dossier. 

The result of the dossier and Martin Brunt (and the daily Mail story), led to a witch hunt on a massive scale that I cant remember seeing before and all because one woman made some tweets.  I do not deny they were abusive and deeply unpleasant but I believe that murders appear to get less media coverage than Brenda did.

I suppose all supporters are following Gerry McCanns' stance

“I’m glad to see the law around this area is being reviewed, but I do think we need to make examples of people who are causing damage.”

Personally I wish that Martin Brunt had found someone to make and "example of" one of who had posted the alleged threats to the family rather than a woman in her 60s who lived alone who did not.

Martin Brunt of course claims to be devastated by Brenda's death but it seems the supporters by and large on here were not (one in particular).

Says more about them in reality imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:27:59 AM
Account for what... What laws, have they broken

They deserve the same fate as BL who also broke no laws.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 07:28:22 AM
I agree. My brother is a teacher and he regularly complains that the school will not take a strong line on mobile phones in school.  Seems that headteachers and principals are more afraid of the parents these days to do very much.

I suppose it depends on the quality of leadership given by the head teacher, the local authority guidance and the ethos of the school.
Fortunately here there are many schools which strive to enforce good anti bullying practices.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:29:24 AM
No one knew brenda had, mental health issues, apart from her family.... They are, the ones, who should have helped her....brenda was free to abuse... Sky was, free to name and shame her....

Brunt knew so get your facts right.  Yet despite knowing, he and Sky News still went ahead and aired her doorstepping, what a despicable bunch of morons they are.  Abuse on twitter is taken as the norm these days but nobody need read any of it if they don't want to.  The #McCann tag is used on twitter to get noticed in that group, it has no other significance.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:37:57 AM
Brunt knew so get your facts right.  Yet despite knowing, he and Sky News still went ahead and aired her doorstepping, what a despicable bunch of morons they are.  Abuse on twitter is taken as the norm these days but nobody need read any of it if they don't want to.  The #McCann tag is used on twitter to get noticed in that group, it has no other significance.

the morons are those posting abuse all day long
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:38:42 AM
Brunt knew so get your facts right.  Yet despite knowing, he and Sky News still went ahead and aired her doorstepping, what a despicable bunch of morons they are.
Look that is why I asked that "heartless question" for then we would know and could temper our responses accordingly.  I must have missed just how Martin Brunt would have known about Brenda's suicidal tendencies.
"Brunt knew so get your facts right" How did he know?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:40:01 AM
Brunt knew so get your facts right.  Yet despite knowing, he and Sky News still went ahead and aired her doorstepping, what a despicable bunch of morons they are.

I put on the supporters thread that all supporters appear to agree with everything a supporter does. Brenda's case is a good point. None here will say they were part of the dossier gang yet every one agrees with the media onslaught that Brenda faced.

I am sure if he were asked, that Martin Brunt would not do his doorstepping of Brenda but all supporters on here are glad he did it appears regardless of the consequences.

And yet they claim that sceptics are heartless.

Davel your last post is a good example of the above.

So they deserve  the, death penalty... Lol...why dont you statrt a petition...death penalty for dossier compiling...just to show what a rational person you are


You are treating Brenda's death as a joke.   I doubt others agree with you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:42:06 AM
Look that is why I asked that "heartless question" for then we would know and could temper our responses accordingly.  I must have missed just how Martin Brunt would have known about Brenda's suicidal tendencies.
"Brunt knew so get your facts right" How did he know?

She told him.  Did you miss the evidence he gave to the coroner?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:43:27 AM
She told him.  Did you miss the evidence he gave to the coroner?

she did not tell him anything until after the doorstepping...even then he did not realise she was serious...whats the point in an discussion forum if you are going to remove posdts just to make your own point
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:46:10 AM
brenda was free to abuse...the dossier compilers were free to go to the press
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:46:37 AM
she did not tell him anything until after the doorstepping...even then he did not realise she was serious...whats the point in an discussion forum if you are going to remove posdts just to make your own point

She told him but he didn't think she was serious.  So pathetic!!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:48:08 AM
She told him but he didn't think she was serious.  So pathetic!!

so he didnt know before the doorstepping
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:49:59 AM
so he didnt know before the doorstepping

He knew before the footage was aired and that is what counts.

ETA. Any further disruptive posts will not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 07:51:32 AM
Says more about them in reality imo.

Says what about "them"?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:52:29 AM
He knew before the footage was aired and that is what counts.

ETA. Any further disruptive posts will not be tolerated.

is a disruptive post on ethat disagrees with you
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:53:22 AM
I put on the supporters thread that all supporters appear to agree with everything a supporter does. Brenda's case is a good point. None here will say they were part of the dossier gang yet every one agrees with the media onslaught that Brenda faced.

I am sure if he were asked, that Martin Brunt would not do his doorstepping of Brenda but all supporters on here are glad he did it appears regardless of the consequences.

And yet they claim that sceptics are heartless.

Davel your last post is a good example of the above.

So they deserve  the, death penalty... Lol...why dont you statrt a petition...death penalty for dossier compiling...just to show what a rational person you are


You are treating Brenda's death as a joke.   I doubt others agree with you.
Suicide is a personal choice.  I don't get any satisfaction from that.  Mind you if someone I detested committed suicide maybe I'd be glad that part is over.  It is pretty hard to be fully forgiving to everyone.  I'm a Christian - "forgive those who who trespass against us etc" but do I really do that?   

She told him.  Did you miss the evidence he gave to the coroner?
Probably  I don't make a point of studying this case.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:54:13 AM
is a disruptive post on ethat disagrees with you

It is against forum rules to post false information in order to support an argument.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 07:56:00 AM
It is against forum rules to post false information in order to support an argument.

Are you absolutely sure that what Davel posted is "false"?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 07:59:17 AM
Are you absolutely sure that what Davel posted is "false"?

Absolutely.  According to Brunt himself, BL told him that she was contemplating suicide but that she had had a drink and spoken to her son and felt better now.   Alarm bells ringing yet they still aired the footage. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 08:04:25 AM
No one knew brenda had, mental health issues, apart from her family.... They are, the ones, who should have helped her....brenda was free to abuse... Sky was, free to name and shame her....

This was the post I strongly objected to.  It was false and misleading. Brunt knew about her mental health issue so should have stood back immediately.  I don't know what sanctimonious selfserving code Sky operates to but it stinks frankly.  The coroner let Sky News off far too lightly imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 08:10:26 AM
Absolutely.  According to Brunt himself, BL told him that she was contemplating suicide but that she had had a drink and spoken to her son and felt better now.   Alarm bells ringing yet they still aired the footage.

I see my original post answering this has gone.
Surely he only knew once he had spoken to her.
She invited him into her home later on that day.
The footage had been shown before .then.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 08:11:57 AM
This was the post I strongly objected to.  It was false and misleading. Brunt knew about her mental health issue so should have stood back immediately.  I don't know what sanctimonious selfserving code Sky operates to but it stinks frankly.  The coroner let Sky News off far too lightly imo.


Thats something you should take up with Sky.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 08:13:00 AM
I see my original post answering this has gone.
Surely he only knew once he had spoken to her.
She invited him into her home later on that day.
The footage had been shown before .then.

I think you are confused as to the timing. The footage was aired after she invited him into her home. Contrary to what some people think, the whole sorry episode was recorded, it was not aired live.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 08:15:06 AM

Thats something you should take up with Sky.

That particular ship has sailed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 08:22:43 AM
I think you are confused as to the timing. The footage was aired after she invited him into her home. Contrary to what some people think, the whole sorry episode was recorded, it was not aired live.

Well it's certainly contrary to what I believe to be true.
The first footage saw her driving away with a friend in a car.
Later on that day the story continued with Brunt saying that when she came back she invited her into her home.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 08:26:08 AM
Well it's certainly contrary to what I believe to be true.

Surely you don't honestly think she would have invited him into her home after they did the dirty on her and aired the doorstepping footage?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 08:30:25 AM
Surely you don't honestly think she would have invited him into her home after they did the dirty on her and aired the doorstepping footage?

Yes.
I believe she did.
After she drove away and the footage had been shown, Brunt later on in the day said that when she came back she contacted him and invited him into her home.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 10:15:35 AM
I doubt very much if the rationale behind the compilation of the dossier was revenge.  In my opinion the dossier compilers simply wanted the torrents of abuse and persecution as exemplified by the many thousands of abusive posts directed at one named family to stop.


A psychiatrist who had treated Brenda Leyland in the past gave evidence to her inquest as follows:

Dr Z - Consultant Psychiatrist (he was not treating Brenda at the time of her death, but had seen her as a patient many years ago)

Brenda did have a mental health condition of recurrent depression and certain unstable emotional personality traits. He understood they were lifelong conditions.
It would not be obvious to others that she had a mental health condition. She was a very private person with complex psychological endowment. She had very contrasting emotions and conversations.

Coroner asked - did she always have full insight into her conversations?

Dr Z - yes, she would understand consequences of her actions. In discussions I think she flirted with talk of suicide.

He said he was not aware she had tried to take her own life in the past.

I've noted "suicidal tendencies".

Coroner - "But the risk of serious harm is always there?"

I've noted "not aware of any actions; risk of serious self-harm".

Dr Z - yes. He described her as an extremely intelligent lady.
Her reaction, could not have been expected by others. And with his knowledge it couldn't have been foreseen.

Coroner - her personality would be to trigger such events?

She told Brunt that she had been thinking of suicide. What do you think he should have done with that information?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 10:16:44 AM
No one knew brenda had, mental health issues, apart from her family.... They are, the ones, who should have helped her....brenda was free to abuse... Sky was, free to name and shame her....

She told Brunt she had been thinking of suicide. What do you think he should have done with that information?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 10:22:49 AM
She told Brunt she had been thinking of suicide. What do you think he should have done with that information?
I hope he said "please don't do that".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 10:23:48 AM
Yes.
I believe she did.
After she drove away and the footage had been shown, Brunt later on in the day said that when she came back she contacted him and invited him into her home.

After she was doorstepped, and before it was aired, Brenda contacted her son to see if there was anything they could do to stop the footage being aired. It’s all there in the coroner’s transcript.

There’s a moral hole in anyone who knows Brenda spoke to Brunt about suicide yet still supports her despicable treatment by him.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 10:29:00 AM
After she was doorstepped, and before it was aired, Brenda contacted her son to see if there was anything they could do to stop the footage being aired. It’s all there in the coroner’s transcript.

There’s a moral hole in anyone who knows Brenda spoke to Brunt about suicide yet still supports her despicable treatment by him.


And there is a moral hole in anyone who hounds and posts hate against the family of a missing child.
And in my opinion that was what Brenda joined in with.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 10:32:21 AM
Yes.
I believe she did.
After she drove away and the footage had been shown, Brunt later on in the day said that when she came back she contacted him and invited him into her home.

The doorstepping and interview later that day were on the 30 September.  BL telephoned Brunt on 1 October when she revealed she had been suicidal. The doorstepping footage aired on the 2 October and BL was found dead two days later.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/20/sky-news-mccann-brenda-leyland

I don't think there's much more to say really, what Sky News did was despicable for an international news organisation which supposedly exudes the highest professional standards in broadcasting.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 10:36:09 AM
And (from the coroners inquest)

Brenda asked "What would Sky do." Brunt replied they would almost certainly use the footage from outside the house. He asked again if she would do more.

He didn't know when the footage would be used. Brenda asked "Would Sky identify her?"

Brunt said he didn't know but it was likely that they would and Brenda accepted that. Brunt gave her his card and said if she had concerns to call him. He added "I hope I haven't ruined your day."

He said that the intention was to contact others [mentioned] in the dossier.

The coroner asked him about the process regarding using the footage. He said he went to London and spoke to Jonathon Levi and others.

Brenda rang Brunt on the afternoon of his visit asking if she would be identified (and when they'd be running the report?). He said he didn't know and that he'd keep her informed.


So Erngath you are misinformed IMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 10:38:06 AM

And there is a moral hole in anyone who hounds and posts hate against the family of a missing child.
And in my opinion that was what Brenda joined in with.

So now Angelo and Sunny have posted the proof that Brunt knew Brenda was thinking of suicide before the footage was aired, do you still think Sky should have aired the footage ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 10:43:35 AM
The doorstepping and interview later that day were on the 30 September.  The doorstepping footage aired on the 2 October and BL was found dead two days later.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/20/sky-news-mccann-brenda-leyland


Why was it shown in two distinctive sections.
The first footage ends with her driving away.
Then later  on that day the next footage showed Brenda and Martin Brunt gong into  her house.

I reiterate all I have said before.
She chose to hound the family of a missing child.
Why?
Bullying even though it may not be criminal is morally reprehensible.
Bullying in schools is dealt with even though it may not be criminal.

The public have a right to be concerned about bullying wherever it occurs.
I regret that anyone chooses to end their life, and I think the pain the family feels must be ntolerable.
The suicide victim is at peace but their families have to cope with the pain forever.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 10:46:10 AM
So now Angelo and Sunny have posted the proof that Brunt knew Brenda was thinking of suicide before the footage was aired, do you still think Sky should have aired the footage ?

My opinion is not relevant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 10:48:10 AM

Why was it shown in two distinctive sections.
The first footage ends with her driving away.
Then later  on that day the next footage showed Brenda and Martin Brunt gong into  her house.

I reiterate all I have said before.
She chose to hound the family of a missing child.
Why?
Bullying even though it may not be criminal is morally reprehensible.
Bullying in schools is dealt with even though it may not be criminal.

The public have a right to be concerned about bullying wherever it occurs.
I regret that anyone chooses to end their life, and I think the pain the family feels must be ntolerable.
The suicide victim is at peace but their families have to cope with the pain forever.

So you choose not to answer my question.

Let me ask you Erngath. If you thought a person, no matter what your view of their behaviour, was contemplating suicide would you simply carry on in the action which you knew had a good chance of tipping them over the edge ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 10:50:56 AM
So you choose not to answer my question.

Let me ask you Erngath. If you thought a person, no matter what your view of their behaviour, was contemplating suicide would you simply carry on in the action which you knew had a good chance of tipping them over the edge ?

I can't believe you would ask  anyone on this forum such an insensitive and frankly insulting question.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 10:52:33 AM

Why was it shown in two distinctive sections.
The first footage ends with her driving away.
Then later  on that day the next footage showed Brenda and Martin Brunt gong into  her house.

I reiterate all I have said before.
She chose to hound the family of a missing child.
Why?
Bullying even though it may not be criminal is morally reprehensible.
Bullying in schools is dealt with even though it may not be criminal.

The public have a right to be concerned about bullying wherever it occurs.
I regret that anyone chooses to end their life, and I think the pain the family feels must be ntolerable.
The suicide victim is at peace but their families have to cope with the pain forever.

You'll need to ask Jonathan Levy that question as he was head of the editorial team who put the footage together.

Abuse is wrong wherever it originates so I make no excuses on that front.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 10:56:59 AM
You'll need to ask Jonathan Levy that question as he was head of the editorial team who put the footage together.

Abuse is wrong wherever it originates so I make no excuses on that front.


It still seems a strange way of broadcasting if everything had been recorded beforehand.
To split the footage into two separate incidents and to make both appear to be live broadcasts is most peculiar..
Agreed, abuse is wrong.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 05, 2018, 11:03:58 AM

Your personal experience may have been with a school which  has failed in its duty to help children who are being bullied but many schools here have good anti bullying policies.
In the past schools have not dealt well with bullying but now most schools have adopted strong anti bullying practices.
If not, then they will incur strong criticism from HMI.
Good luck. I've been through the mill. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 11:08:36 AM
I can't believe you would ask  anyone on this forum such an insensitive and frankly insulting question.

But that is at the core of this debate.

And it is a very simple question. I myself can categorically say that no matter what the person had done if I thought by my actions that they may take their own life I would not take those actions.
 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 11:09:53 AM
Good luck. I've been through the mill. 

In your opinion of course.
Because you have been unfortunate enough not to have experienced what happens in a well -run and caring school community, does not mean that everyone has the same unfortunate experience.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 11:15:17 AM
But that is at the core of this debate.

And it is a very simple question. I myself can categorically say that no matter what the person had done if I thought by my actions that they may take their own life I would not take those actions.

No I would do my very up most to make sure a loved one committed suicide.
You have no idea of whether I have had to cope with or been involved with this situation in my real life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 05, 2018, 11:32:28 AM
This is a sensitive subject which has raised several questions of a moral and legal nature. There is sufficient scope foir debate without resorting to personal comments or goading remarks.  And that includes using the name Alfie to provoke a response from another member.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 11:51:34 AM
No I would do my very up most to make sure a loved one committed suicide.
You have no idea of whether I have had to cope with or been involved with this situation in my real life.

It’s surprising that you are asking me to consider what you have coped with in your life when you give no thought to what Brenda had had to cope with.

So from your answer above can I take it that you think Brunt was wrong to air the footage when he knew Brenda was suicidal ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 11:52:23 AM
Brunt said he didn't think the remark was made, seriously... Did anyone contact sky... Her son fir instance and explain the situation.... It appears not

People  want to blame sky.. Brunt... or the compilers... They all acted reasonably IMO... The problem started with the, abusive tweets... They were the cause of the situation  arising... Anyone posting anything on line should have the decency only to post that which they are prepared to publicly acknowledge... Posting abuse anonymously is, rank cowardice
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 11:54:07 AM
Brunt said he didn't think the remark was made, seriously... Did anyone contact sky... Her son fir instance and explain the situation.... It appears not

People  want to blame sky.. Brunt... or the compilers... They all acted reasonably IMO... The problem started with the, abusive tweets... They were the cause if the situation  arising... Anyone posting anything on line should have the decency only to post that which they are prepared to publicly acknowledge... Posting abuse anonymously is, rank cowardice

Did Brunt say he thought her suicide remark was not serious ? Do you have a cite ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 11:54:57 AM
Did Brunt say he thought her suicide remark was not serious ? Do you have a cite ?

Yes he said he thought it was a throw away remark
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 11:55:53 AM
Good luck. I've been through the mill.

Then presumably  you do not support the abuse by brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 12:01:08 PM
Statement by the coroner... Who knows more, about the case than anyone here..

Recording a verdict of suicide, Mason said she did not think that anyone could have known that Leyland had made a decision to take her own life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
Yes he said he thought it was a throw away remark

Do you have a cite ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 12:07:00 PM
Do you have a cite ?

Before I provide the cite... Are you really not aware of it... If you are not I will be glad to provide it
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 12:27:52 PM
It’s surprising that you are asking me to consider what you have coped with in your life when you give no thought to what Brenda had had to cope with.

So from your answer above can I take it that you think Brunt was wrong to air the footage when he knew Brenda was suicidal ?

You can think what you like.
I've had quite enough of your style of posting for today.
Even in this post you can say that I "give no thought to what Brenda had had to cope with"
Yet another example of you deciding  how I feel and/or think.
Never have I given any indication that this is how I feel.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Lace on September 05, 2018, 12:35:29 PM
It’s surprising that you are asking me to consider what you have coped with in your life when you give no thought to what Brenda had had to cope with.

So from your answer above can I take it that you think Brunt was wrong to air the footage when he knew Brenda was suicidal ?

Brunt didn't know Brenda was suicidal and he didn't air the footage,  get your facts right.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 12:41:22 PM
Brunt may have been told but it didn't resonate.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 01:14:23 PM
And (from the coroners inquest)



He said that the intention was to contact others [mentioned] in the dossier. 


 
Snipped from my earlier post with Martin Brunt's evidence to the coroner.  Brunt had originally intended to contact others mentioned in the dossier.

If he was so convinced that what he had done to Brenda Leyland was correct, why did he not do this?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 01:20:17 PM
Snipped from my earlier post with Martin Brunt's evidence to the coroner.  Brunt had originally intended to contact others mentioned in the dossier.

If he was so convinced that what he had done to Brenda Leyland was correct, why did he not do this?

IMO.... Because of the death of brenda... Showing a bit of restraint... Perhaps her fellow abusers showed restraint to and stopped the abuse
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 05, 2018, 01:56:26 PM
IMO.... Because of the death of brenda... Showing a bit of restraint... Perhaps her fellow abusers showed restraint to and stopped the abuse

I expect there are those who think they should have carried on regardless.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 01:59:05 PM
I expect there are those who think they should have carried on regardless.

May well be...abuse such as brenda was part of needs to be stopped... Although you seem to disagree
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 05, 2018, 02:43:28 PM

And there is a moral hole in anyone who hounds and posts hate against the family of a missing child.
And in my opinion that was what Brenda joined in with.

As I have said previously, she couldn’t hound as they were not on twitter and the only evidence of “hate” was in response to another unknown tweet.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 03:01:24 PM
As I have said previously, she couldn’t hound as they were not on twitter and the only evidence of “hate” was in response to another unknown tweet.
She was abusive towards the McCanns... Over and over again.. Most of her posts, are no longer available
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 05, 2018, 03:33:54 PM
She was abusive towards the McCanns... Over and over again.. Most of her posts, are no longer available

It doesn’t appear so. Are you suggesting the dossier compilers didn’t have the worst tweets?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 03:46:27 PM
It doesn’t appear so. Are you suggesting the dossier compilers didn’t have the worst tweets?

I was under the impression I had shared all of Brenda's tweets earlier this thread. Perhaps Davel knows different  and provide a cite for this.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 04:13:37 PM
Statement by the coroner... Who knows more, about the case than anyone here..

Recording a verdict of suicide, Mason said she did not think that anyone could have known that Leyland had made a decision to take her own life.

All very poor excuses. She had confided in Brunt that she was extremely upset and had thought about ending it all yet Sky still went ahead and aired the footage.  For me that was an extremely callous thing to do.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 04:16:59 PM
Brunt didn't know Brenda was suicidal and he didn't air the footage,  get your facts right.

BL told him she had thought about ending it all.  I don't know what you call that in your part of the world but here we call it attempting suicide.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 04:18:44 PM
Snipped from my earlier post with Martin Brunt's evidence to the coroner.  Brunt had originally intended to contact others mentioned in the dossier.

If he was so convinced that what he had done to Brenda Leyland was correct, why did he not do this?

Sky News binned the entire thing and Brunt disappeared for weeks which sort of speaks volumes imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 05, 2018, 04:20:55 PM
She was abusive towards the McCanns... Over and over again.. Most of her posts, are no longer available

She had no contact with the McCanns which renders your claim baseless.  The dossier compilers know they did wrong and have been lucky so far to cloak their true identities because as sure as there is a night and day, this will come back to bite them imo.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 04:21:12 PM
Before I provide the cite... Are you really not aware of it... If you are not I will be glad to provide it

Off you go.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 04:23:15 PM
Brunt didn't know Brenda was suicidal and he didn't air the footage,  get your facts right.

Brunt did know Brenda was suicidal. He admitted as much himself.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Brunt knew Brenda was having suicidal thoughts yet still chose to air the doorstepping footage. Do you condemn him for making such a heartless decision ? If you don’t you don’t care and it is your attitude which should be scrutinised not the poster who highlighted it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 04:57:21 PM
Let's be clear then.
You are accusing Davel of not caring that a woman ended her own life.

By the way I said objectionable not disappointing.

He has made it abundantly clear that he blames her death entirely on herself and has shown no care at all. Read his posts on the subject and I suppose I could say I find Davel's attitude regarding her death objectional, Erngath.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
I think what is clear how misguided someone could be.... I'm one of the most compassionate people anyone could meet... So I'm not in the slightest offended... I'm totally comfortable in my own compassionate skin
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 05:09:06 PM
He has made it abundantly clear that he blames her death entirely on herself and has shown no care at all. Read his posts on the subject and I suppose I could say I find Davel's attitude regarding her death objectional, Erngath.

I've followed his posts and  believe he has attributed much of her difficulties to her own personal life situation.
He believes that it was correct that the bullying and hounding of the parents of Madeleine should have been reported both to the police and the media.
You have chosen to interpret this as his  not caring that a woman ended her own life.
I feel you have no right to make such a presumption.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 05:13:40 PM
I think what is clear how misguided someone could be.... I'm one of the most compassionate people anyone could meet... So I'm not in the slightest offended... I'm totally comfortable in my own compassionate skin

However if a sceptic had been the subject of such accusations...........
You can only imagine the ensuing objections.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 05:15:38 PM
I've followed his posts and  believe he has attributed much of her difficulties to her own personal life situation.
He believes that it was correct that the bullying and hounding of the parents of Madeleine should have been reported both to the police and the media.
You have chosen to interpret this as his  not caring that a woman ended her own life.
I feel you have no right to make such a presumption.

Brunt knew Brenda was having suicidal thoughts yet chose to show the footage anyway. Anyone who doesn’t roundly condemn that choice doesn’t care what befell Brenda as a result.

You do seem inordinately interested in defending such a callous decision.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 05:24:20 PM
The discussion was Did Brenda Leyland have the right to due process. The answer is yes. Did she receive it ? The answer of course is no.

Conclusion: supporters ( including the dossier compilers ) insist on due process for the McCanns while denying it to Brenda Leyland.
Was this the finding of the inquest? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 05:29:54 PM
I think that is a heartless question to ask Rob.

I also am intrigued that yourself and none of the supporters who have replied to my previous post have mentioned the final part of my quote by Claire Hardacre


Ultimately, individuals who troll or become obsessed with conspiracy theories can be driven by many factors – boredom, loneliness, a need for validation – and we cannot discount the possibility of mental health problems. At times, their behaviour may border on loathsome, but a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice.


Claire Hardacre agreed with me that "a news team with a high-profile journalist at the helm is not the way to bring about justice". Do you and others think it was the right way?

Brietta, whether or not Brenda had suicidal tendencies was almost certainly unknown to Brunt, the rest of the media that piled in to call her a trxll and also those who created the dossier. 

The result of the dossier and Martin Brunt (and the daily Mail story), led to a witch hunt on a massive scale that I cant remember seeing before and all because one woman made some tweets.  I do not deny they were abusive and deeply unpleasant but I believe that murders appear to get less media coverage than Brenda did.

I suppose all supporters are following Gerry McCanns' stance

“I’m glad to see the law around this area is being reviewed, but I do think we need to make examples of people who are causing damage.”

Personally I wish that Martin Brunt had found someone to make and "example of" one of who had posted the alleged threats to the family rather than a woman in her 60s who lived alone who did not.

Martin Brunt of course claims to be devastated by Brenda's death but it seems the supporters by and large on here were not (one in particular).
Bsically what you and Claire want is for the media to consider and research the mental health of everyone they write stories on before publishing them.  Perhaps that too should be extended to everyone who passes a personal opinion on another person in a public place. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 05, 2018, 05:30:31 PM
May well be...abuse such as brenda was part of needs to be stopped... Although you seem to disagree

I concur with that Dave but using the press and media is not how it will be stopped. If anything, the Brenda Leyland case should be a lesson to all that there is a right and a wrong way of doing these things.  Had the police bothered to speak to her I am quite sure that would have been enough to end the nonsense but clearly they were too busy with other things to get involved. I always found that a word in someone's ear or even being cautioned usually had the desired effect.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 05:32:21 PM
They deserve the same fate as BL who also broke no laws.
So lthough you think what the dossier compilers and sky did was reprehensible, you want them to receive the same treatment as Brenda.  And what if Brunt or a dossier compiler killed themselves, would that be justified as suitable retribution in your view?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 05:32:29 PM
All very poor excuses. She had confided in Brunt that she was extremely upset and had thought about ending it all yet Sky still went ahead and aired the footage.  For me that was an extremely callous thing to do.

I don't think it was... Brunt didn't take her remark seriously... As I have said... Why didn't her son ring Brunt... Brenda had his number

You have your opinion I have mine... I don't attach any blame to the compilers... Brunt... Or Sky... They had information  that need to be acted on
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 05:33:28 PM
I concur with that Dave but using the press and media is not how it will be stopped. If anything, the Brenda Leyland case should be a lesson to all that there is a right and a wrong way of doing these things.  Had the police bothered to speak to her I am quite sure that would have been enough to end the nonsense but clearly they were too busy with other things to get involved.

I suggested some time ago the police should have spoken to her
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 05:35:43 PM
He has made it abundantly clear that he blames her death entirely on herself and has shown no care at all. Read his posts on the subject and I suppose I could say I find Davel's attitude regarding her death objectional, Erngath.

I find your whole post laughable with no basis in fact... But IMO there's lots you misunderstand
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 05, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
I don't think it was... Brunt didn't take her remark seriously... As I have said... Why didn't her son ring Brunt... Brenda had his number

You have your opinion I have mine... I don't attach any blame to the compilers... Brunt... Or Sky... They had information  that need to be acted on

They are journalists or at least that's what they call themselves, they report news, they don't create it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 05, 2018, 05:38:42 PM
So lthough you think what the dossier compilers and sky did was reprehensible, you want them to receive the same treatment as Brenda.  And what if Brunt or a dossier compiler killed themselves, would that be justified as suitable retribution in your view?

Two wrongs don't make a right as the saying goes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 05:44:56 PM
But that is at the core of this debate.

And it is a very simple question. I myself can categorically say that no matter what the person had done if I thought by my actions that they may take their own life I would not take those actions.
We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 05:49:44 PM
Brunt knew Brenda was having suicidal thoughts yet still chose to air the doorstepping footage. Do you condemn him for making such a heartless decision ? If you don’t you don’t care and it is your attitude which should be scrutinised not the poster who highlighted it.
Why not commend him for his honesty?  He could have omitted this detail from his testimony but he chose to reveal it, showing that he is a man of integrity and conscience.  Martin Brunt is not, as far as I know, the final arbiter of what is and what is not shown on Sky News.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 05:51:23 PM
Two wrongs don't make a right as the saying goes.
Try tellng that to Angelo who appears to have an Old Testament approach to justice.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:01:46 PM
Was this the finding of the inquest?

It was beyond the inquest’s scope.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 06:06:53 PM
It was beyond the inquest’s scope.
Surely being “denied due process” is a matter that should be investigated by the relevant authorities?  Why weren’t they?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:08:07 PM
We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not?

Amaral obviously  didn't care about how much anguish he caused the McCanns.  Neither did Brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:10:14 PM
Surely being “denied due process” is a matter that should be investigated by the relevant authorities?  Why weren’t they?

In life Brenda was indeed denied due process due to Sky and the dossier compilers taking the law into their own hands. After her death of course she was found to have committed not criminal offence.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:15:25 PM
She seems to have a pretty good handle on WUM spotting.

I don't think she has, a handle on anything.... It gives me some satisfaction how wrong she can which gives a guide to the accuracy of her other conclusions
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:18:11 PM
Why not commend him for his honesty?  He could have omitted this detail from his testimony but he chose to reveal it, showing that he is a man of integrity and conscience.  Martin Brunt is not, as far as I know, the final arbiter of what is and what is not shown on Sky News.



His honesty ? That’s like commending a murderer for confessing.

Did he say he had told Sky about Brenda’s suicide comment ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 06:19:06 PM
We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not?


He never showed the slightest concern for Madeleine and her family.
I doubt he ever considered Kate's fragile state.
This opinion is based on my judgement of his words and actions.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:21:39 PM
In life Brenda was indeed denied due process due to Sky and the dossier compilers taking the law into their own hands. After her death of course she was found to have committed not criminal offence.
neither did Brunt or sky
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:31:02 PM

He never showed the slightest concern for Madeleine and her family.
I doubt he ever considered Kate's fragile state.
This opinion is based on my judgement of his words and actions.

Sorry I thought you were talking about Brunt. Everyone seems to forget his 100% DNA claim.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:33:32 PM
Sorry I thought you were talking about Brunt. Everyone seems to forget his 100% DNA claim.

It wasn't his claim
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 06:34:06 PM
Amaral obviously  didn't care about how much anguish he caused the McCanns.  Neither did Brenda

Amaral and Brenda were certainly not the only people who had no care about how much anguish they added to he McCanns.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
It wasn't his claim

I saw him claim it with my own eyes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:39:53 PM
Amaral and Brenda were certainly not the only people who had no care about how much anguish they added to he McCanns.

People can’t be force to feel sorry for two entitled 30 somethings who took the safety of their children so lightly.

My granddaughter is the same age as Madeleine and it makes me shudder that they ever thought that it was an appropriate decision to make.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:40:09 PM
I saw him claim it with my own eyes.

You should have turned the sound up and listened to his words... He was reporting a claim... It wasn't his claim... He was jusrlt doing his job as he was, when he doorstepped brenda
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 06:41:08 PM


His honesty ? That’s like commending a murderer for confessing.

Did he say he had told Sky about Brenda’s suicide comment ?
Criminals  are commended for confessing and often receive reduced sentences for doing so.  Are you suggesting Martin Brunt is similar to a murderer?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:42:59 PM
Criminals  are commended for confessing and often receive reduced sentences for doing so.  Are you suggesting Martin Brunt is similar to a murderer?

I think your comparison is comparable.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 06:44:25 PM
I find your whole post laughable with no basis in fact... But IMO there's lots you misunderstand

OK No basis in fact. Who do you blame for Brenda's death then. You have said many times here that it wasn't the dossier and it wasn't Martin Brunt and the media, who is left?

Online abuse is a serious topic that needs to be addressed.... Not the tit for tat arguments between posters, but the targetting if individuals not involved with the sites.  For this, reason I applaud the action of the compilers and of Brunt and Sky and don't believe they have any responsibility  fir the death of Brenda

You say

I think what is clear how misguided someone could be.... I'm one of the most compassionate people anyone could meet... So I'm not in the slightest offended... I'm totally comfortable in my own compassionate skin

And yet

in your opinion...we dont know how they feel ...If i was one of the I certainly would not feel in any way to blame for brendas death.....if you expect compassion in times of difficulty it might be an idea to show some to others...brenda showed none

perhaps the dossier makers thought brenda deserved maximum exposure........in order to curb bullying and abuse online....I cant help but agree with them...lets have an end to abuse and bullying

brenda had no thoughts whatsoever for the  mccanns feelings...why should she expect any for herself

Regarding her taking of her own life

of course ...it a was brendas choice

I don't consider you compassionate, at least towards Brenda Leyland's death davel.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 06:45:01 PM
In life Brenda was indeed denied due process due to Sky and the dossier compilers taking the law into their own hands. After her death of course she was found to have committed not criminal offence.
The same could be said for named police officers in the Hillsborough tragedy, for the alleged murderers of Stephen Lawrnece, and many other examples named and shamed prior to any court case.  I presume you are equally disgusted by the way these individuals have been treated by the media?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:47:40 PM
OK No basis in fact. Who do you blame for Brenda's death then. You have said many times here that it wasn't the dossier and it wasn't Martin Brunt and the media, who is left?

You say

And yet

Regarding her taking of her own life

I don't consider you compassionate, at least towards Brenda Leyland's death davel.

Brendas mental illness... Combined with her lonliness.... The fact as, I understand she killed herself on her estranged sons birthday make me think she wanted to punish him.. All my opinion but you did ask the question
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 06:48:29 PM
I think your comparison is comparable.
It was your comparison, so you DO think Martin Brunt is similar to a murderer, and yet somehow despite being investigated no charges were brought.  As the police are the only people who matter (your words) that should be that, so why do you keep harping on?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 06:51:02 PM
Snipped from my earlier post with Martin Brunt's evidence to the coroner.  Brunt had originally intended to contact others mentioned in the dossier.

If he was so convinced that what he had done to Brenda Leyland was correct, why did he not do this?
He was working for someone wasn't he?  So his boss would have had a say in that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 06:52:28 PM
Brendas mental illness... Combined with her lonliness.... The fact as, I understand she killed herself on her estranged sons birthday make me think she wanted to punish him.. All my opinion but you did ask the question


The ones left behind are those who suffer the most.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:52:46 PM
The same could be said for named police officers in the Hillsborough tragedy, for the alleged murderers of Stephen Lawrnece, and many other examples named and shamed prior to any court case.  I presume you are equally disgusted by the way these individuals have been treated by the media?

I really can’t explain it on any other way.

I really can’t see much difference to the way Sky acted to the actions of Tommy Robinson. Individuals being investigated are given anonymity for a reason.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 06:54:01 PM

The ones left behind are those who suffer the most.

In many cases... But not all
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
OK No basis in fact. Who do you blame for Brenda's death then. You have said many times here that it wasn't the dossier and it wasn't Martin Brunt and the media, who is left?

You say

And yet

Regarding her taking of her own life

I don't consider you compassionate, at least towards Brenda Leyland's death davel.

And I don't consider you compassionate,  at least towards Madeleine's family.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:55:44 PM
It was your comparison, so you DO think Martin Brunt is similar to a murderer, and yet somehow despite being investigated no charges were brought.  As the police are the only people who matter (your words) that should be that, so why do you keep harping on?

I think commending Brunt for his honesty is like commending a murderer for confessing. The commendation is absurd.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 06:57:15 PM

The ones left behind are those who suffer the most.

I’m sure Madeleine would beg to differ.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 06:57:55 PM
In life Brenda was indeed denied due process due to Sky and the dossier compilers taking the law into their own hands. After her death of course she was found to have committed not criminal offence.
Had she not committed suicide maybe she could have gotten a good payout for libel.  Be like the McCanns.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 06:58:40 PM
Brendas mental illness... Combined with her lonliness.... The fact as, I understand she killed herself on her estranged sons birthday make me think she wanted to punish him.. All my opinion but you did ask the question

The way you read it off like a shopping list and have done more than once is why I didn't consider it compassionate Davel doesn't make be believe you care. Read my quotes by you earlier. And then think of the post earlier by me that you ridiculed.

The fact that you say you do not blame anyone but Brenda for her death and in fact want more outings of sceptics.  How do you know there will not be another suicide?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 06:58:54 PM
In many cases... But not all


I know four families of suicide victims and they continually blame themselves and wonder what they could have done to help prevent their loved  one ending their life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 07:00:22 PM
I think commending Brunt for his honesty is like commending a murderer for confessing. The commendation is absurd.

Nicely swerved the point of my post btw.  Why do you keep harping on when the only people who matter, the police, decided Sky and Brunt had done nothing wrong?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
I saw him claim it with my own eyes.
Did he see the report from FSS too?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
Could anyone please show me where anyone who has only made alleged abusive posts on twitter has ever had the mass media hysteria that Brenda Leyland was forced to suffer for over 2 days before she took her own life. 

Some here think it was a final straw IMO it was the main one. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 07:07:32 PM
Could anyone please show me where anyone who has only made alleged abusive posts on twitter has ever had the mass media hysteria that Brenda Leyland was forced to suffer for over 2 days before she took her own life. 

Some here think it was a final straw IMO it was the main one.
I remember a young woman on Big Brother who used the “N” word in a good humoured chat with a black housemate and attracted mass media hysteria for several days, attracting plenty of comment from newspapers.  She got kicked off the show for it.  I remember standing up for her online and being vilified for doing so.  Ironic isn’t it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:08:19 PM

I know four families of suicide victims and they continually blame themselves and wonder what they could have done to help prevent their loved  one ending their life.
Goes to show it isn't that easy to predict.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:10:51 PM
Could anyone please show me where anyone who has only made alleged abusive posts on twitter has ever had the mass media hysteria that Brenda Leyland was forced to suffer for over 2 days before she took her own life. 

Some here think it was a final straw IMO it was the main one.
What did her therapist think?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:12:37 PM
I remember a young woman on Big Brother who used the “N” word in a good humoured chat with a black housemate and attracted mass media hysteria for several days, attracting plenty of comment from newspapers.  She got kicked off the show for it.  I remember standing up for her online and being vilified for doing so.  Ironic isn’t it?

That was someone who wanted the media attention, and they got it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:15:37 PM
What did her therapist think?

Rob were you involved in the case when Martin Brunt doorstepped Brenda? It was huge in the media and was why I became interested in the case.

I am sure that the fact it was her estranged son's birthday and the outing together proved too much for her and I am not surprised.  Without Brunt and his and others escapade then Brenda would still be here I am sure.

Some though IMO seem to be glad as at least she isn't tweeting.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:17:10 PM
Could anyone please show me where anyone who has only made alleged abusive posts on twitter has ever had the mass media hysteria that Brenda Leyland was forced to suffer for over 2 days before she took her own life. 

Some here think it was a final straw IMO it was the main one.

It isn't some here.. It's her son who thought it was the final straw... And I think hes more informed than you are
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 07:18:57 PM
That was someone who wanted the media attention, and they got it.
She wanted to be the nation’s pariah, and dubbed a racist?  Do you have a cite for that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:22:17 PM
She wanted to be the nation’s pariah, and dubbed a racist?  Do you have a cite for that?

Don't put words into my mouth Vertigo Swirl. Who on earth would appear on Big Brother without wanting to be "famous".   It's what the whole programme is about for contestants IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 07:23:49 PM
Don't put words into my mouth Vertigo Swirl. Who on earth would appear on Big Brother without wanting to be "famous".   It's what the whole programme is about for contestants IMO.
Famous, but not infamous, for being a racist.

“Emily also told of the guilt she is now suffering over the impact that her ejection has had on her family. “My whole family’s a mess. They don’t deserve this – any of them. My sisters are doing their A levels. Examiners have been walking them to their cars after their exams. They’re much less prepared for this stuff than me.”

She went on: “I haven’t had any sleep. The whole family is stressed. My mother smoked the other day. I haven’t seen her do that for 20-odd years. I was taken to the psychiatrist and broke down in tears constantly – pretty much non-stop for the first two days. First it was shock and devastation – second was because I’d let my family down.”
Read more at https://www.whatsontv.co.uk/big-brother/big-brother-emily-parr-speaks-216973/#0KSI4YeoCGUhiGuL.99
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:24:34 PM
It isn't some here.. It's her son who thought it was the final straw... And I think hes more informed than you are

No one can know what was in her mind at the time but I imagine having her entire life and character destroyed by the media onslaught would have been a considerable part of the reason she decided to end her life.

Of course you can carry on trying to make out it made no difference if you wish.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:25:12 PM
Rob were you involved in the case when Martin Brunt doorstepped Brenda? It was huge in the media and was why I became interested in the case.

I am sure that the fact it was her estranged son's birthday and the outing together proved too much for her and I am not surprised.  Without Brunt and his and others escapade then Brenda would still be here I am sure.

Some though IMO seem to be glad as at least she isn't tweeting.
But what did her therapist think?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:27:07 PM
Famous, but not infamous, for being a racist.

“Emily also told of the guilt she is now suffering over the impact that her ejection has had on her family. “My whole family’s a mess. They don’t deserve this – any of them. My sisters are doing their A levels. Examiners have been walking them to their cars after their exams. They’re much less prepared for this stuff than me.”

She went on: “I haven’t had any sleep. The whole family is stressed. My mother smoked the other day. I haven’t seen her do that for 20-odd years. I was taken to the psychiatrist and broke down in tears constantly – pretty much non-stop for the first two days. First it was shock and devastation – second was because I’d let my family down.”
Read more at https://www.whatsontv.co.uk/big-brother/big-brother-emily-parr-speaks-216973/#0KSI4YeoCGUhiGuL.99
Emily Parr courted fame. She made a mistake on national television and was ejected from the show. I don't know the details by the way as I don't watch Big Brother but she was expecting to be in the media just not in the way it ended up.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 07:27:20 PM
Anyone who believes Brenda is the only person who has ever been named and shamed by the media should read “So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed” by Jon Ronson, it’s a salutary tale that we should all take heed of.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:28:33 PM
No one can know what was in her mind at the time but I imagine having her entire life and character destroyed by the media onslaught would have been a considerable part of the reason she decided to end her life.

Of course you can carry on trying to make out it made no difference if you wish.

Her son said it was the final straw.. Which indicates, something quite minor
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 07:30:45 PM
No one can know what was in her mind at the time but I imagine having her entire life and character destroyed by the media onslaught would have been a considerable part of the reason she decided to end her life.

Of course you can carry on trying to make out it made no difference if you wish.

This is just a personal observation.
Much as I would dislike having my face and character being "destroyed"on the media, the thought of being estranged from my eldest much loved son  for years would utterly "destroy "me.

Perhaps this is the reason she had attempted suicide before.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:40:39 PM
Her son said it was the final straw.. Which indicates, something quite minor

From Brunt at the inquest

Mr Brunt, a respected veteran journalist, said he ended the conversation by telling her: "I hope I have not ruined your day".

She replied: "I don't know yet if you have ruined my day or my life."


And

Mr Brunt said he spoke to her again on the phone before his report was broadcast and she told him she had "thought about ending it all".

"It was a throw-away remark," he said. "She said she was feeling better. I had no idea about her mental background or history."


I can't believe he though her saying she may kill herself was a "throw-away remark".

Hopefully Davel the above will show that it wasn't a minor thing to Brenda as any sensible person would know IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:43:59 PM
From Brunt at the inquest

Mr Brunt, a respected veteran journalist, said he ended the conversation by telling her: "I hope I have not ruined your day".

She replied: "I don't know yet if you have ruined my day or my life."


And

Mr Brunt said he spoke to her again on the phone before his report was broadcast and she told him she had "thought about ending it all".

"It was a throw-away remark," he said. "She said she was feeling better. I had no idea about her mental background or history."


I can't believe he though her saying she may kill herself was a "throw-away remark".

Hopefully Davel the above will show that it wasn't a minor thing to Brenda as any sensible person would know IMO.

According to her, son there was a lot more going on in her life... He knows more than you
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 07:44:53 PM
From Brunt at the inquest

Mr Brunt, a respected veteran journalist, said he ended the conversation by telling her: "I hope I have not ruined your day".

She replied: "I don't know yet if you have ruined my day or my life."


And

Mr Brunt said he spoke to her again on the phone before his report was broadcast and she told him she had "thought about ending it all".

"It was a throw-away remark," he said. "She said she was feeling better. I had no idea about her mental background or history."


I can't believe he though her saying she may kill herself was a "throw-away remark".

Hopefully Davel the above will show that it wasn't a minor thing to Brenda as any sensible person would know IMO.
Did she seek professional help at that time?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:45:26 PM
Ben Leyland

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred.”.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:47:21 PM
Ben Leyland

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred.”.


Have you ever heard those words before Re this case... Have a think... It puts them into perspective
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:48:21 PM
Did she seek professional help at that time?

Psychiatric help would have been needed in addition to legal help at that time. To stop the media circus that destroyed her according to her son IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:51:19 PM
Psychiatric help would have been needed in addition to legal help at that time. To stop the media circus that destroyed her according to her son IMO.

According to her son it was not the media circus which destroyed her
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 07:54:39 PM
Ben Leyland

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred.”.


It's quite odd that brenda is copying kates words in relation to amaral... How obsessed was she


She did not find that because of statements in the book, documentary and a newspaper interview Kate and Gerry had been “completely destroyed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 07:58:42 PM
According to her son it was not the media circus which destroyed her

Do you have a cite for that Davel.

I have this

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 08:00:34 PM
Do you have a cite for that Davel.

I have this

He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred

So he didn't mention media circus... False claim

He said it was the final straw indicating other factors, already in place
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 08:01:16 PM
It's quite odd that brenda is copying kates words in relation to amaral... How obsessed was she


She did not find that because of statements in the book, documentary and a newspaper interview Kate and Gerry had been “completely destroyed

The McCanns claimed to be "totally destroyed" and "depressed" not "completely destroyed" Davel.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 08:03:28 PM
So he didn't mention media circus... False claim

He said it was the final straw indicating other factors, already in place


He said his mother was “completely destroyed” by what had occurred


You have even referred to the words "completely destroyed" in another post did you not notice this bit "by what had occurred"??
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2018, 08:04:46 PM
The McCanns claimed to be "totally destroyed" and "depressed" not "completely destroyed" Davel. Get something right for a change.

My quote is from a newspaper  article...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 09:49:27 PM
Anyone who believes Brenda is the only person who has ever been named and shamed by the media should read “So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed” by Jon Ronson, it’s a salutary tale that we should all take heed of.

Is the fact that Brenda wasn’t the first to be named and shamed really relevant.

The Birmingham Six weren’t the first people to have suffered a miscarriage of justice. Does that make it any more acceptable?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 10:07:57 PM
So he didn't mention media circus... False claim

He said it was the final straw indicating other factors, already in place

Indeed.
The biggest factor in my opinion must have been the estrangement from her son.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 05, 2018, 10:10:51 PM
Is the fact that Brenda wasn’t the first to be named and shamed really relevant.

The Birmingham Six weren’t the first people to have suffered a miscarriage of justice. Does that make it any more acceptable?
I was replying to Sunny who seemed to be under the impression that Brenda’s case was a first.  Any reason why you are unable to accept the decision of “the only people who matter”in this case, and who clearly did not believe Brenda was denied her legsl rights?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 10:49:43 PM
I was replying to Sunny who seemed to be under the impression that Brenda’s case was a first.  Any reason why you are unable to accept the decision of “the only people who matter”in this case, and who clearly did not believe Brenda was denied her legsl rights?

The only people that matter ie the police, deemed Brenda to have committed no criminal offence. So for her to be hounded when she had done nothing criminally wrong was indeed to deny her due process. Due process entails investigation, arrest, charge, trial, verdict. Due process is not accusation, humiliation, death.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 05, 2018, 11:06:41 PM
The only people that matter ie the police, deemed Brenda to have committed no criminal offence. So for her to be hounded when she had done nothing criminally wrong was indeed to deny her due process. Due process entails investigation, arrest, charge, trial, verdict. Due process is not accusation, humiliation, death.

So far  the only people that matter iie the police have deemed the parents of Madeleine to have committed no criminal offence.
So for them to be hounded when they have done nothing criminally wrong is to deny them due process.
Due process entails investigation, arrest , charge, trial, verdict.
Due process is not accusation, insults, setting up of Facebook pages to humiliate, decry, lie about, post myths and  self appointed , "researchers" stalking the family of a missing child.
Pity Brenda didn't consider "due process"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 11:16:40 PM
So far  the only people that matter iie the police have deemed the parents of Madeleine to have committed no criminal offence.
So for them to be hounded when they have done nothing criminally wrong is to deny them due process.
Due process entails investigation, arrest , charge, trial, verdict.
Due process is not accusation, insults, setting up of Facebook pages to humiliate, decry, lie about, post myths and  self appointed , "researchers" stalking the family of a missing child.
Pity Brenda didn't consider "due process"

Do you think the McCanns deserve due process?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 05, 2018, 11:17:16 PM
BL, who didn’t post abuse or commit any offence appears to be being pilloried by the usual suspects for not being convinced of the McCanns non involvement. Talk about post truth.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 11:22:19 PM
Brenda did it no one else.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 11:24:47 PM
Brenda did it no one else.

Brenda did what? Sorry your post does not make sense Rob.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 11:36:41 PM
Brenda did what? Sorry your post does not make sense Rob.
https://youtu.be/TBP9k2Xsj6g?list=RDVnuf9-zgdyw  "Dolly did it"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 05, 2018, 11:40:51 PM
https://youtu.be/TBP9k2Xsj6g?list=RDVnuf9-zgdyw  "Dolly did it"

Sorry still not making sense Rob but I am off now anyway.

Speak tomorrow.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 05, 2018, 11:41:52 PM
BL, who didn’t post abuse or commit any offence appears to be being pilloried by the usual suspects for not being convinced of the McCanns non involvement. Talk about post truth.

She chose not to continue living in hope of eventually learning the truth - which imo signifies that her quest was not as important to her as her own reputation. Egos & reputations have long since overtaken the sceptic cause of justice for Madeleine, clearly visible on twitter & other fora. Is Madeleine McCann deserving of a name forever synonymous with the behaviour of those who play at seeking their own version of justice?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 05, 2018, 11:47:08 PM
Sorry still not making sense Rob but I am off now anyway.

Speak tomorrow.
I couldn't find the right clip, but that comedian blamed everything on Dolly, by saying "Dolly did it" and I was trying to being funny saying "Brenda did it".  I'll try again later....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 05, 2018, 11:49:31 PM
She chose not to continue living in hope of eventually learning the truth - which imo signifies that her quest was not as important to her as her own reputation. Egos & reputations have long since overtaken the sceptic cause of justice for Madeleine, clearly visible on twitter & other fora. Is Madeleine McCann deserving of a name forever synonymous with the behaviour of those who play at seeking their own version of justice?

It would be better than a name synonymous with parental neglect.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on September 05, 2018, 11:54:27 PM
It would be better than a name synonymous with parental neglect.

What happened to due process when making that comparison?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 06, 2018, 05:54:53 AM
She chose not to continue living in hope of eventually learning the truth - which imo signifies that her quest was not as important to her as her own reputation. Egos & reputations have long since overtaken the sceptic cause of justice for Madeleine, clearly visible on twitter & other fora. Is Madeleine McCann deserving of a name forever synonymous with the behaviour of those who play at seeking their own version of justice?

I think that is very cruel Misty when you say
 
She chose not to continue living in hope of eventually learning the truth - which imo signifies that her quest was not as important to her as her own reputation.

Can you not sympathise with the shock and horror she must have felt seeing Martin Brunt outside her house  accusing her of trolling the McCanns and saying she was being looked at by the police, all the while knowing that this would appear at least once on television. Then it doesn't appear just once but many times on Sky followed by the Daily Mail naming her and others following suit all calling her a trxll and picking her life apart.

You say "eventually" how long is eventually to someone suffering from depression who feels that her entire life has caved in in one day IMO.

One thing I am sure of is that even when the MSM furore had died down the supporters would be sharing the video and taunting others using her experience as the stick.  They have done it before IMO



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 07:27:09 AM
What is, the point if this thread... Shouldn't Brenda be allowed to RIP....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:07:56 AM
The only people that matter ie the police, deemed Brenda to have committed no criminal offence. So for her to be hounded when she had done nothing criminally wrong was indeed to deny her due process. Due process entails investigation, arrest, charge, trial, verdict. Due process is not accusation, humiliation, death.
Why were there no prosecutions following Brenda’s death then?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:09:30 AM
BL, who didn’t post abuse or commit any offence appears to be being pilloried by the usual suspects for not being convinced of the McCanns non involvement. Talk about post truth.
Brenda didn’t post abuse??!  Did you write that with a straight face?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:16:36 AM
What is, the point if this thread... Shouldn't Brenda be allowed to RIP....
Brenda’s death was a gift to the sceptics, a great big juicy stick to bring out regularly to use for McCann and McCann supporter bashing.  Sick and sad IMO, but maybe that’s what Brenda would have wanted.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 06, 2018, 08:22:23 AM
What is, the point if this thread... Shouldn't Brenda be allowed to RIP....

I've found it most informative. Those who have accused others of lacking empathy seem to have jettisoned their own. Those who insist that the McCanns have the right to be presumed innocent appear to have denied that presumption to Brenda Leyland. Those who think the police are the right people to investigate Madeleine's disappearance have supported the idea of bypassing the police and using the media if they think a person is guilty. In my opinion they change their morals and beliefs depending on the circumstances.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 08:28:11 AM
Brenda didn’t post abuse??!  Did you write that with a straight face?

Yes, nothing posted would look out of place on many of the active fora both supporter and sceptic.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:30:35 AM
I've found it most informative. Those who have accused others of lacking empathy seem to have jettisoned their own. Those who insist that the McCanns have the right to be presumed innocent appear to have denied that presumption to Brenda Leyland. Those who think the police are the right people to investigate Madeleine's disappearance have supported the idea of bypassing the police and using the media if they think a person is guilty. In my opinion they change their morals and beliefs depending on the circumstances.
I think pretty much every McCann supporter here has expressed empathy for Brenda.  Brenda was not denied any rights, the media simply reported the facts, which she had the opportunity to deny or defend.  Instead she chose to end her life.  The same thing happened to the McCanns initially, with the media reporting that they left their kids alone and all the outrage that enused.  The McCanns chose to defend their position.  In the end they were not prosecuted, and neither probably would Brenda have been - she would have received due process, but didn’t stick around long enough for it. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:32:09 AM
Yes, nothing posted would look out of place on many of the active fora both supporter and sceptic.
So despite the fact that many sceptics on this thread have agreed that what Brenda wrote was bullying and abusive, you think it was acceptable because others do it too, is that the gist?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 06, 2018, 08:51:48 AM
Bsically what you and Claire want is for the media to consider and research the mental health of everyone they write stories on before publishing them.  Perhaps that too should be extended to everyone who passes a personal opinion on another person in a public place.
Interesting point to ponder.

From memory, Richard Bilton came in for a lot of criticism, on here, for his 10th anniversary piece re Madeleine, particularly re 2 doorstep interviews, Vitor dos Santos and Paulo Ribeiro.  The latter, in particular, was clearly not mentally fit for an inquisatorial intervew.  The former was doorstepped at his place of work.

Should the BBC have considered the mental health of Paulo Ribeiro?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 09:01:34 AM
Interesting point to ponder.

From memory, Richard Bilton came in for a lot of criticism, on here, for his 10th anniversary piece re Madeleine, particularly re 2 doorstep interviews, Vitor dos Santos and Paulo Ribeiro.  The latter, in particular, was clearly not mentally fit for an inquisatorial intervew.  The former was doorstepped at his place of work.

Should the BBC have considered the mental health of Paulo Ribeiro?
Yet not a word from sceptics here
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on September 06, 2018, 09:04:27 AM

Did Sonia Poulton consider the mental health of Kate McCann?

Sorry if this is Off Topic, but it does seem to be about Door Stepping.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:08:59 AM
Why were there no prosecutions following Brenda’s death then?

Why would there be prosecutions ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:10:21 AM
Did Sonia Poulton consider the mental health of Kate McCann?

Sorry if this is Off Topic, but it does seem to be about Door Stepping.

No I’m sure she didn’t and her doorstepping of Kate was absolutely deplorable too.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:11:40 AM
Did Sonia Poulton consider the mental health of Kate McCann?

Sorry if this is Off Topic, but it does seem to be about Door Stepping.
I made this point before on this thread, it was ignored.

“We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not? “

All those expressing outrage that Brenda’s mental state was not considered might like to  ask themselves what happened to their outrage when it was Kate McCann and her mental state being put through the media wringer?  I suspect all the while Kate was being pilloried bu the press many of these bleeding hearts were only adding to the online bile being heaped on the woman.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:12:50 AM
Why would there be prosecutions ?
You tell me, you’re the one claiming Brenda was done an injustice.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 06, 2018, 09:12:54 AM
I made this point before on this thread, it was ignored.

“We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not? “

All those expressing outrage that Brenda’s mental state was not considered might like to  ask themselves what happened to their outrage when it was Kate McCann and her mental state being put through the media wringer?  I suspect all the while Kate was being pilloried bu the press many of these bleeding hearts were only adding to the online bile being heaped on the woman.  Am I wrong?


No.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:15:06 AM
No I’m sure she didn’t and her doorstepping of Kate was absolutely deplorable too.
You will of course be boycotting Sonia’s latest video effort then?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 09:16:31 AM
I made this point before on this thread, it was ignored.

“We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not? “

All those expressing outrage that Brenda’s mental state was not considered might like to  ask themselves what happened to their outrage when it was Kate McCann and her mental state being put through the media wringer?  I suspect all the while Kate was being pilloried bu the press many of these bleeding hearts were only adding to the online bile being heaped on the woman.  Am I wrong?

Go on, I will bite, cite for Kate’s mental state.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:16:46 AM
I made this point before on this thread, it was ignored.

“We know Kate McCann has contemplated suicide in the past and has had a fragile mental state.   She was understandably caused anguish by a best sellng book claiming her and her husband probably sedated their child, hid her body and transported it for re-hiding/burial 23 days later.  Did Amaral consider whether or not his book might have driven Kate McCann to suicide before publication?  Did he have any reason to know for certain it would not? “

All those expressing outrage that Brenda’s mental state was not considered might like to  ask themselves what happened to their outrage when it was Kate McCann and her mental state being put through the media wringer?  I suspect all the while Kate was being pilloried bu the press many of these bleeding hearts were only adding to the online bile being heaped on the woman.  Am I wrong?

Had Kate contemplated suicide ? It’s funny but in the Lisbon trial she seemed to deny such a deep depression.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:17:47 AM
You tell me, you’re the one claiming Brenda was done an injustice.

I said she was denied due process which is patently true.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:18:16 AM
Go on, I will bite, cite for Kate’s mental state.
Read her book.  Look at the pictures.  Read the interviews at the time.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:20:12 AM
Read her book.  Look at the pictures.  Read the interviews at the time.

Read her testimony at the Lisbon hearings.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:24:37 AM
Had Kate contemplated suicide ? It’s funny but in the Lisbon trial she seemed to deny such a deep depression.
Whether or not she was actually close to suicide is immaterial.  No one apart from the individual would know that for sure one way or the other, yet one could use empathy and imagine the mental state of a woman who’s child had gone missing couldn’t one, and therefore moderate one’s behaviour taking this into account?  Did the media?  Did Amaral?  I very much doubt it, yet this is what you Brenda supporters appear to want - the media considering the mental state of eveyone whose alleged misdemeanours they report on.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:25:37 AM
I said she was denied due process which is patently true.
Being denied due process is legally permitted then?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 06, 2018, 09:26:45 AM
Yet not a word from sceptics here

Is Faithlilly a sceptic in your opinion?

snip/

Bilton haranguing an obviously mentally disabled man or rudely questioning a gentleman, who was never even an arguido, at his place of work?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8131.msg403455#msg403455
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 09:31:42 AM
Is Faithlilly a sceptic in your opinion?

snip/

Bilton haranguing an obviously mentally disabled man or rudely questioning a gentleman, who was never even an arguido, at his place of work?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8131.msg403455#msg403455
Good stuff IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:31:58 AM
Read her testimony at the Lisbon hearings.
I have.  I have also read her book and various interviews on the subject of how she felt, both at the time Madeleine went missing and subsequently, and her feelings about Amaral’s book.  They paint a picture of a distraught, devastated, at times emotionally fragile woman, who had considered swimming out to sea, never to return.   Admittedly she is clearly made of stronger stuff than many, and that is why she is still here today.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:41:31 AM
Being denied due process is legally permitted then?

Unless someone wants to sue privately it would appear so.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:44:23 AM
Unless someone wants to sue privately it would appear so.
So obviously those nearest and dearest to Brenda were content to let it lie, unlike Brenda’s Barmy Army who keep going on and on about it, forever it would seem.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:47:15 AM
I have.  I have also read her book and various interviews on the subject of how she felt, both at the time Madeleine went missing and subsequently, and her feelings about Amaral’s book.  They paint a picture of a distraught, devastated, at times emotionally fragile woman, who had considered swimming out to sea, never to return.   Admittedly she is clearly made of stronger stuff than many, and that is why she is still here today.

So no mention of suicide? And in her Lisbon testimony she specifically says she was not depressed, a prerequisite I would have thought for suicidal thoughts ?

It is interesting though that you seem to believe that suicide is only for the weak.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:48:43 AM
So obviously those nearest and dearest to Brenda were content to let it lie, unlike Brenda’s Barmy Army who keep going on and on about it, forever it would seem.

It would appear her family have taken the issue no further, yes. That doesn’t change my point.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:49:04 AM
So no mention of suicide? And in her Lisbon testimony she specifically says she was not depressed, a prerequisite I would have thought for suicidal thoughts ?

It is interesting though that you seem to believe that suicide is only for the weak.
No mention of suicide?  What is swimming in the sea and never returning then?  Moving to another country?  I didn’t say suicide is only for the weak, you are putting words in my mouth.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 09:51:41 AM
It would appear her family have taken the issue no further, yes. That doesn’t change my point.
Why can’t you respect the family’s wishes and dial down the noise on their nearest and dearest’s death?  Is there any evidence that they want people like you to keep banging on about it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:53:35 AM
No mention of suicide?  What is swimming in the sea and never returning then?  Moving to another country?  I didn’t say suicide is only for the weak, you are putting words in my mouth.

It’s like saying I want to start running and never stop. It doesn’t allude to suicide. Now do you have a proper cite or will we let Kate’s testimony at Lisbon stand ?

You said Kate never attempted suicide because she was made of sterner stuff. Isn’t that suggesting people who do attempt suicide are weak ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 09:55:04 AM
Why can’t you respect the family’s wishes and dial down the noise on their nearest and dearest’s death?  Is there any evidence that they want people like you to keep banging on about it?

Why don’t you admit that their nearest and dearest wouldn’t be dead if it wasn’t for individuals with no thought for their nearest and dearest ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:01:35 AM
Had Kate contemplated suicide ? It’s funny but in the Lisbon trial she seemed to deny such a deep depression.

Kate had said she felt like ending it all... At one stage... Obviously many people, say this but they are not... And it is not taken seriously.... As Brenda did
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:05:35 AM
It’s like saying I want to start running and never stop. It doesn’t allude to suicide. Now do you have a proper cite or will we let Kate’s testimony at Lisbon stand ?

You said Kate never attempted suicide because she was made of sterner stuff. Isn’t that suggesting people who do attempt suicide are weak ?
Do people in a happy place write of jumping in the ocean and swimming out to sea?  What sort of mental state does that suggest to you?  If someone said that to you in a private moment, would you then do a TV broadcast about the fact that in your opinion they neglected their children, or worse? 

People with fragile mental states sometimes commit suicide.  Sometimes people commit suicide out of fear, desperation, illness or honour, they may not have fragile mental states.  It’s not a simple - “people who attempt suicide are weak”, understand? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:08:20 AM
Why don’t you admit that their nearest and dearest wouldn’t be dead if it wasn’t for individuals with no thought for their nearest and dearest ?
It’s an overly simplistic argument you are presenting and one which I do not agree with.  You are suggesting that Brunt and the dossier compilers caused Brenda’s death.  If that was the case they would have been prosecuted.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:13:43 AM
Kate had said she felt like ending it all... At one stage... Obviously many people, say this but they are not... And it is not taken seriously.... As Brenda did
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/kate-mccann-contemplated-suicide-after-detectives-book-on-madeleines-disappearance-8829175.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:16:20 AM
"I had an overwhelming urge to swim out across the ocean, as hard and as fast as I could; to swim and swim and swim until I was so far out and so exhausted I could just allow the water to pull me under and relieve me of this torment.

"I wasn't keeping that desire to myself, either. I was shouting it out to anyone who happened to be in the room. Both this urge and the expression of it were, I suppose, an outlet for the crucifying anguish.

"Somehow, inflicting physical pain on myself seemed to be the only possible way of escaping my internal pain. The other truly awful manifestation of what I was feeling was a macabre slide show of vivid pictures in my brain that taunted me relentlessly.

"I was crying out that I could see Madeleine lying, cold and mottled, on a big grey stone slab. Looking back, seeing me like this must have been terrible for my friends and relatives, particularly my parents, but I couldn't help myself."

So, not alluding to suicide then, Faithlilly?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:20:23 AM
Kate had said she felt like ending it all... At one stage... Obviously many people, say this but they are not... And it is not taken seriously.... As Brenda did

A cite would be nice.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 10:22:13 AM
A cite would be nice.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10052.msg486062#msg486062
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:23:14 AM
It’s an overly simplistic argument you are presenting and one which I do not agree with.  You are suggesting that Brunt and the dossier compilers caused Brenda’s death.  If that was the case they would have been prosecuted.

If the compilers and Brunt hadn’t humiliated Brenda then she would still be alive. Those are the bold, unarguable facts.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:26:07 AM
"I had an overwhelming urge to swim out across the ocean, as hard and as fast as I could; to swim and swim and swim until I was so far out and so exhausted I could just allow the water to pull me under and relieve me of this torment.

"I wasn't keeping that desire to myself, either. I was shouting it out to anyone who happened to be in the room. Both this urge and the expression of it were, I suppose, an outlet for the crucifying anguish.

"Somehow, inflicting physical pain on myself seemed to be the only possible way of escaping my internal pain. The other truly awful manifestation of what I was feeling was a macabre slide show of vivid pictures in my brain that taunted me relentlessly.

"I was crying out that I could see Madeleine lying, cold and mottled, on a big grey stone slab. Looking back, seeing me like this must have been terrible for my friends and relatives, particularly my parents, but I couldn't help myself."

So, not alluding to suicide then, Faithlilly?

The above alludes to the pain she was feeling but not to suicide.

Brenda said ‘ I was thinking of suicide’.

Do you see the difference?

You need to be clinically depressed to seriously contemplate suicide. Kate categorically said she was not.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:39:33 AM
If the compilers and Brunt hadn’t humiliated Brenda then she would still be alive. Those are the bold, unarguable facts.

That's an assumption... Not a fact
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:41:25 AM
exactly the dossier  creators and  sky  news    uk  are  to blame for brenda killing herself imo

thats your opinion and totaly wrong..imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:42:09 AM
The above alludes to the pain she was feeling but not to suicide.

Brenda said ‘ I was thinking of suicide’.

Do you see the difference?

You need to be clinically depressed to seriously contemplate suicide. Kate categorically said she was not.
Brenda said ‘ I was thinking of suicide’.......cite
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:42:44 AM
That's an assumption... Not a fact

No it’s a fact.

She said to Brunt that she was contemplating suicide over his actions.....and then she did.

It’s not hard to join up the dots.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:45:17 AM
No it’s a fact.

She said to Brunt that she was contemplating suicide over his actions.....and then she did.

It’s not hard to join up the dots.

no its not a fact,...she had other problems and may have committed suicide for those raesons...

cite for...Brenda said ‘ I was thinking of suicide’..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:45:35 AM
The above alludes to the pain she was feeling but not to suicide.

Brenda said ‘ I was thinking of suicide’.

Do you see the difference?

You need to be clinically depressed to seriously contemplate suicide. Kate categorically said she was not.
What rot.  Was Juliet clinically depressed?  How about Romeo?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:46:11 AM
no its not a fact,...she had other problems and may have committed suicide for those raesons...

cite for...Brenda said ‘ I was thinking of suicide’..

‘Asked by the coroner if there was anything which indicated a concern for her life, Mr Brunt said: "No, but when I asked her how she was, she said 'oh I have thought about ending it all but I am feeling better - I have had a drink and spoken to my son'".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:46:52 AM
What rot.  Was Juliet clinically depressed?  How about Romeo?

Sorry but  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:47:55 AM
‘Asked by the coroner if there was anything which indicated a concern for her life, Mr Brunt said: "No, but when I asked her how she was, she said 'oh I have thought about ending it all but I am feeling better - I have had a drink and spoken to my son'".
So when she spoke to Brunt she was feeling better, and over her thoughts of ending it all.  But we now know this wasn’t true, was Brunt supposed to guess she was not telling the truth?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:48:33 AM
‘Asked by the coroner if there was anything which indicated a concern for her life, Mr Brunt said: "No, but when I asked her how she was, she said 'oh I have thought about ending it all but I am feeling better - I have had a drink and spoken to my son'".

so brenda never said... I was thinking of suicide’.....you even put it in quotaion marks...what absolute rubbish
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 10:48:36 AM
Sorry but  @)(++(*
I thought you’d enjoy that.  Now tell me only clinically depressed people commit suicide again.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 10:57:51 AM
headline..

Kate McCann 'contemplated suicide' after detective's book on Madeleine's disappearance

so if kate had committed suicide would sceptics accept that it was amarals book that caused it or would they say it was other factors in her life...what did the Judge say
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:58:54 AM
So when she spoke to Brunt she was feeling better, and over her thoughts of ending it all.  But we now know this wasn’t true, was Brunt supposed to guess she was not telling the truth?

Brunt is an educated professional. Even suggesting she had contemplated suicide should have rung huge alarm bells. You don’t get over feeling suicidal with a few drinks.

I wonder if he told anyone at Sky of this conversation with Brenda. I’m guessing not. Too good a scoop I suppose.

It’s telling they never attempted to doorstep anyone else in the dossier ( cue grinding of false teeth ).
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 10:59:32 AM
I thought you’d enjoy that.  Now tell me only clinically depressed people commit suicide again.

Were Romeo and Juliet real ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:03:10 AM
headline..

Kate McCann 'contemplated suicide' after detective's book on Madeleine's disappearance

so if kate had committed suicide would sceptics accept that it was amarals book that caused it or would they say it was other factors in her life...what did the Judge say

But she didn’t.

If she had said to Amaral ‘I have become suicidal at the thought that you might publish a book accusing me of a heinous crime’ and when the book was published she did, whose fault do you think that would be ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 11:04:40 AM
But she didn’t.

If she had said to Amaral ‘I have become suicidal at the thought that you might publish a book accusing me of a heinous crime’ and when the book was published she did, whose fault do you think that would be ?

I understand you cant answer the question...it would destroy your argument..
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:10:45 AM
I understand you cant answer the question...it would destroy your argument..

I would question whether her loss of reputation really had meant more to her than the loss of her child.

Martin Brunt was told Brenda, due to his doorstepping, had contemplated suicide. None of friends or family at the inquest suggested she had talked about suicide before her doorstepping. Even you can join the dots.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 11:11:02 AM
But she didn’t.

If she had said to Amaral ‘I have become suicidal at the thought that you might publish a book accusing me of a heinous crime’ and when the book was published she did, whose fault do you think that would be ?

i asked thefirst question...now my second..
if she had said taht ...do you think amaral would still have published his book
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 11:11:32 AM
I would question whether her loss of reputation really had meant more to her than the loss of her child.

Martin Brunt was told Brenda, due to his doorstepping, had contemplated suicide. None of friends or family at the inquest suggested she had talked about suicide before her doorstepping. Even you can join the dots.

still no answer
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:14:02 AM
i asked thefirst question...now my second..
if she had said taht ...do you think amaral would still have published his book

I think he would have and would have had to live with the fact that he may have contributed to her suicide.

Now you.

If Kate had said to Amaral ‘I have become suicidal at the thought that you might publish a book accusing me of a heinous crime’ and when the book was published she did, whose fault do you think that would be ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 06, 2018, 11:17:23 AM
I would question whether her loss of reputation really had meant more to her than the loss of her child.

Martin Brunt was told Brenda, due to his doorstepping, had contemplated suicide. None of friends or family at the inquest suggested she had talked about suicide before her doorstepping. Even you can join the dots.

I would question whether Brenda's  loss of reputation meant more to her than having lost  the company and pleasure  and love of having her eldest child in her life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 11:18:31 AM
Were Romeo and Juliet real ?
No, but their story has been repeated in real life many times.  Now, tell me again that only the clinically depressed commit suicide.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 11:19:20 AM
I think he would have and would have had to live with the fact that he may have contributed to her suicide.

should he go ahead
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:21:07 AM
No, but their story has been repeated in real life many times.  Now, tell me again that only the clinically depressed commit suicide.

Then why not bring the real life cases here rather than a fictional one ?

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:21:47 AM
should he go ahead

I see you’re avoiding my question.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 11:22:06 AM
I think he would have and would have had to live with the fact that he may have contributed to her suicide.

Now you.

If Kate had said to Amaral ‘I have become suicidal at the thought that you might publish a book accusing me of a heinous crime’ and when the book was published she did, whose fault do you think that would be ?

you use teh word...may have...so you accept brunt ...may have...it is not factual..

second part...it would be maddies disappearance that caused the suicide......if Maddie had turned up...evn with the book in place ..kate would not have been suicidal...similarly i think its other problems brenda had taht caused her death
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 11:22:50 AM
But she didn’t.

If she had said to Amaral ‘I have become suicidal at the thought that you might publish a book accusing me of a heinous crime’ and when the book was published she did, whose fault do you think that would be ?
Who’s fault would it be?  You tell us.  Do you think if every Tom, Dick or Harriet said to the press “don’t publish an article showing what a nasty b........ I’ve been, I’m feeling suicidal” that the press should err on the side of caution and not print the facts?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 11:24:38 AM
Then why not bring the real life cases here rather than a fictional one ?
Because I couldn’t be arsed to google.  Do you accept now that you don’t have to be clinically depressed to commit suicide, yes or no?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:26:29 AM
I would question whether Brenda's  loss of reputation meant more to her than having lost  the company and pleasure  and love of having her eldest child in her life.

Surely you realise that family relationships can be complex. We have no idea why Brenda and her son were estranged.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 11:27:05 AM
Because I couldn’t be arsed to google.  Do you accept now that you don’t have to be clinically depressed to commit suicide, yes or no?

No.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 11:29:13 AM
FYI:

“Another way about thinking of suicide risk and depression is to examine the lives of people who have died by suicide and see what proportion of them were depressed. From that perspective, it is estimated that about 60 percent of people who commit suicide have had a mood disorder (e.g., major depression, bipolar disorder, dysthymia). Younger persons who kill themselves often have a substance abuse disorder, in addition to being depressed”

https://www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abuse/does-depression-increase-risk-of-suicide/index.html

Therefore an estimated 40% of suicides were not clinically depressed prior to killing themselves.  I trust that puts that myth to bed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 11:29:31 AM
No.
Oh dear.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 06, 2018, 11:33:56 AM
Surely you realise that family relationships can be complex. We have no idea why Brenda and her son were estranged.

It doesn't matter a tinker's curse why they were estranged.
The estrangement would be very painful unless she really didn't care at all which I doubt.
Did her loss of reputation really cause her more pain than the loss of her son.
You seem to be suggesting it did.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 11:42:52 AM
Surely you realise that family relationships can be complex. We have no idea why Brenda and her son were estranged.
I think ben and I have a mutual friend...perhaps I can find out....i wouldnt post anything here
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 11:51:56 AM
I would have thought anyone who felt that the MSM were ignoring the trooo facts of the Madeleine McCann face and who spent all day every day trying to attract the world’s attention to this miscarriage of justice would be only too delighted to be given a platform on Sky News, or at least be proud of the fact that they had drawn attention to their online struggle.  If Brenda truly believed what she was doing online was honourable and just she could have used the opportunity to get more people onside and start a ball rolling that could have led to the final crushing of the McCanns “web of lies”.  She didn’t.  I believe she felt ashamed of herself.  I do feel sorry for her, nonetheless - it’s easy I’m sure to get swept along on a tide of abusive behaviour and nastiness online, especially if it gives you a sense of belonging and camaraderie with a group of people who share your beliefs.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 06, 2018, 12:06:36 PM
Ofcom guidelines;

8.1 Any infringement of privacy in programmes, or in connection with obtaining material included in programmes, must be warranted.

8.11  Doorstepping for factual programmes should not take place unless a request for an interview has been refused or it has not been possible to request an interview, or there is good reason to believe that an investigation will be frustrated if the subject is approached openly, and it is warranted to doorstep. However, normally broadcasters may, without prior warning interview, film or record people in the news when in public places.

In this section “warranted” has a particular meaning. It means that where broadcasters wish to justify an infringement of privacy as warranted, they should be able to demonstrate why in the particular circumstances of the case, it is warranted. If the reason is that it is in the public interest, then the broadcaster should be able to demonstrate that the public interest outweighs the right to privacy.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/section-eight-privacy

In my opinion the 'public interest' was not a reason for doorstepping in this instance, and could not have been demonstrated to outweigh the right to privacy. That's because 'public interest' can't be defined by ten 'outraged' people and one news organisation.



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 12:14:28 PM
Ofcom guidelines;

8.1 Any infringement of privacy in programmes, or in connection with obtaining material included in programmes, must be warranted.

8.11  Doorstepping for factual programmes should not take place unless a request for an interview has been refused or it has not been possible to request an interview, or there is good reason to believe that an investigation will be frustrated if the subject is approached openly, and it is warranted to doorstep. However, normally broadcasters may, without prior warning interview, film or record people in the news when in public places.

In this section “warranted” has a particular meaning. It means that where broadcasters wish to justify an infringement of privacy as warranted, they should be able to demonstrate why in the particular circumstances of the case, it is warranted. If the reason is that it is in the public interest, then the broadcaster should be able to demonstrate that the public interest outweighs the right to privacy.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv-radio-and-on-demand/broadcast-codes/broadcast-code/section-eight-privacy

In my opinion the 'public interest' was not a reason for doorstepping in this instance, and could not have been demonstrated to outweigh the right to privacy. That's because 'public interest' can't be defined by ten 'outraged' people and one news organisation.
What was Ofcom’s finding in this case, assuming a complaint was made?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
Brunt is an educated professional. Even suggesting she had contemplated suicide should have rung huge alarm bells. You don’t get over feeling suicidal with a few drinks.

I wonder if he told anyone at Sky of this conversation with Brenda. I’m guessing not. Too good a scoop I suppose.

It’s telling they never attempted to doorstep anyone else in the dossier ( cue grinding of false teeth ).

Why would Martin Brunt have a greater insight into Brenda Leyland's state of mind than her son who knew her well did?  Although concerned for her in the situation she had put herself in Ben didn't suspect for a moment that she would take her own life.

In my opinion the subsequent trolling of Martin Brunt and the demands for his job were unwarranted ... but typical behaviour for some.

Don't you think the circumstances of the time rather preempted any follow up of the dossier as far as Martin Brunt or Sky news were concerned?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 12:54:32 PM
headline..

Kate McCann 'contemplated suicide' after detective's book on Madeleine's disappearance

so if kate had committed suicide would sceptics accept that it was amarals book that caused it or would they say it was other factors in her life...what did the Judge say
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10052.msg486087#msg486087
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 01:14:17 PM
If Brenda was obviously  suicidal why did her son not act.... Obviously  he did not think she was
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 01:24:04 PM
If Brenda was obviously  suicidal why did her son not act.... Obviously  he did not think she was
Thinking is inaccurate.  What sort of action would have helped.  Further intervention could just about make the matter worse.  It is a hard decision. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 01:29:08 PM
Thinking is inaccurate.  What sort of action would have helped.  Further intervention could just about make the matter worse.  It is a hard decision.
Tho point I'm making is I don't think he did.... Hevwas, trying to arrange solictors whereas if he'd realized how bad she was he could have caught a plane home or arranged for someone to look after her... I'm sure he would have done this if he'd realised how bad she was... He didn't and neither did brunt
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 01:57:58 PM
The guidelines  posted are for doorstepping... ie knocking on a persons door... Is that what happened  or was brenda simply approached in a public place..

However, normally broadcasters may, without prior warning interview, film or record people in the news when in public places
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 03:45:54 PM
I think that is very cruel Misty when you say
 
She chose not to continue living in hope of eventually learning the truth - which imo signifies that her quest was not as important to her as her own reputation.

Can you not sympathise with the shock and horror she must have felt seeing Martin Brunt outside her house  accusing her of trolling the McCanns and saying she was being looked at by the police, all the while knowing that this would appear at least once on television. Then it doesn't appear just once but many times on Sky followed by the Daily Mail naming her and others following suit all calling her a trxll and picking her life apart.

You say "eventually" how long is eventually to someone suffering from depression who feels that her entire life has caved in in one day IMO.

One thing I am sure of is that even when the MSM furore had died down the supporters would be sharing the video and taunting others using her experience as the stick.  They have done it before IMO

Why on earth would 'supporters' or anyone else do any such thing if Mrs Leyland's actions and those of others sharing a place along side her in the dossier were due to be consigned to the dustbin of history by Leicestershire police?
Bit of a damp squib?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 04:00:22 PM
Tho point I'm making is I don't think he did.... Hevwas, trying to arrange solictors whereas if he'd realized how bad she was he could have caught a plane home or arranged for someone to look after her... I'm sure he would have done this if he'd realised how bad she was... He didn't and neither did brunt

In my opinion there is no rhythm or reason as to why people decide commit suicide.  It can happen quite out of the blue leaving family and friends devastated and mystified with everyone blaming themselves for not doing the impossible and 'recognising' the signs.
Which is why in my opinion it is below the belt to apportion blame about something it is possible Brenda herself didn't even understand.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 06, 2018, 04:01:57 PM
Why on earth would 'supporters' or anyone else do any such thing if Mrs Leyland's actions and those of others sharing a place along side her in the dossier were due to be consigned to the dustbin of history by Leicestershire police?
Bit of a damp squib?

But that was the point Brietta. The dossier was always going to end up going nowhere with the police. The people who created the dossier knew that was more than likely and wanted Brenda and others to be known to the public not just as sceptics but as trxlls. IMO.

I have seen taunting going on within forums and twitter of other sceptics who have had their identity disclosed. Some who haven't made it into the media but the taunting hasn't stopped.

One supporter on twitter has called Brenda several unpleasant nicknames since she died.   

Here is an article for you

Madeleine McCann: Innocent Brenda Leyland was hounded to death by the Trollhunters

When Brenda Leyland was doorstepped by Sky News reporter Martin Brunt, she became the “McCann Troll”,  the woman who under the name ‘sweepyface’ had bombarded Twitter with comments about the parents of missing Madeleine McCann.

No longer a real human being, Leyland was monstered by the media until she achieved the status of public enemy, awful enough to be branded a “hate-fuelled” (Times) “twisted, fecked-up bitch” (Daily Mirror). She was the eptiome of “sheer evil“.

We were left to wonder: who was hounding who?

Two days after being ‘exposed’ on the telly for our entertainment, Brenda Leyland was dead. The verdict: suicide.

At the coroner’s inquest at Leicester Town Hall, Martin Brunt says (via the Telegraph):

“At the end of the conversation she said it was a pleasure to meet you. I said I hoped I hadn’t ruined her day which I considered very much a throwaway remark. I was out of the country when I was told that Brenda Leyland had been found dead. I was devastated and I still am and the enormity of what’s happened will always be with me.”

Martin Brunt is a skilled reporter. It would be churlish not to take his upset as anything other than genuine. But his role as trollhunter-in-chief is regrettable. Swept along by a mob-fed eagerness to ‘unmask’ trolls and expose anyone saying nasty things to the glare of publicity and most excitedly court action, Brunt got his popular story.

And the self-righteous, narking trollhunters had another scalp.

He added:

“Mrs Leyland said she was concerned that the McCanns had left Madeleine and her siblings alone and that Twitter was a mean to express feelings and she hoped she had not done anything unlawful. She acknowledged that she was the holder of the @sweepyface account and said she would never tweet again.”

 Mrs Leyland’s youngest son, Ben, addressed the court by letter:

“My mother had always struggled with depression and was prone to anxiety and physical health issues she had been told were effectively untreatable. There is no doubt in my mind that the Sky News interview was the final straw that pushed her to do what she did.”

Brenda Leyland was a soft target, a weak woman exposed publicly after an anonymous source had passed a dossier of alleged Twitter “trolls” to Brunt.

And the irony is in Detective Sergeant Steven Hutchings, from Leicestershire Police, saying that none of her tweets amounted to a criminal offence.

She called someone names and said nasty things to the few people fool enough to follow her on Twitter. And for that she became front-page news and the face of evil.

Coroner Catherine Mason concluded:

“I am satisfied that no one could have known what she was going to do and how she was going to do it. It’s quite clear to me that all preparation was done at her own hand and that there was no third party involvement.”

And the mob moves on…

 



Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on September 06, 2018, 04:41:30 PM
This list shows the onslaught that Brenda faced and these are only the first day's articles
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1scva59

Couple that with these comments about within some published mainstream media articles. Examples below.

  “hate-fuelled”   “twisted, fecked-up bitch”   “sheer evil“

Is it any wonder she was totally devastated and all for some tweets that hardly anyone read.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on September 06, 2018, 06:08:50 PM
Why would Martin Brunt have a greater insight into Brenda Leyland's state of mind than her son who knew her well did?  Although concerned for her in the situation she had put herself in Ben didn't suspect for a moment that she would take her own life.

In my opinion the subsequent trolling of Martin Brunt and the demands for his job were unwarranted ... but typical behaviour for some.

Don't you think the circumstances of the time rather preempted any follow up of the dossier as far as Martin Brunt or Sky news were concerned?

Did she tell her son that she was feeling suicidal? Did she tell Martin Brunt ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 06:12:17 PM
Read her book.  Look at the pictures.  Read the interviews at the time.

Provide a cite.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 07:09:21 PM
I already have, no need to be so rude.

No you haven’t. Kate’s book isn’t a cite, page and quote may be.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 07:31:15 PM
I have quoted verbatim from Kate’s book, did you perhaps delete it?  And whilst you’re demanding cites, how about demanding one from Sunny regarding her claim that a McCann supporter made that vile image of Brenda?
I read that too - page numbering varies between editions. Have you checked your posts  "find posts" link?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 07:34:48 PM
I have quoted verbatim from Kate’s book, did you perhaps delete it?  And whilst you’re demanding cites, how about demanding one from Sunny regarding her claim that a McCann supporter made that vile image of Brenda?

Which post was that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 06, 2018, 07:36:11 PM
I read that too - page numbering varies between editions. Have you checked your posts  "find posts" link?

I'm saw it too... It's amazing how some profess opinions and don't know the basics
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 07:42:05 PM
Go on, I will bite, cite for Kate’s mental state.
The devastated mother of missing Madeleine McCann considered suicide and told her psychologist of 'dark thoughts' after a Portuguese detective published a book alleging she faked her daughter's disappearance, a libel trial has heard.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/kate-mccann-contemplated-suicide-after-detectives-book-on-madeleines-disappearance-8829175.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 07:45:29 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/kate-mccann-contemplated-suicide-after-detectives-book-on-madeleines-disappearance-8829175.html

Oh SNAP!! What do I see before me?  Is it a cite?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 07:55:34 PM
The devastated mother of missing Madeleine McCann considered suicide and told her psychologist of 'dark thoughts' after a Portuguese detective published a book alleging she faked her daughter's disappearance, a libel trial has heard.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/kate-mccann-contemplated-suicide-after-detectives-book-on-madeleines-disappearance-8829175.html

The psychologist who was supposed to have enough of an insight into her state of mind to testify said...

Quote
"I deduced it was an indication of how she felt rather than something she ever intended to do."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 07:56:14 PM
No you haven’t. Kate’s book isn’t a cite, page and quote may be.
But this is a cite ... sorry, no page number.

Snip
In a new book to mark the fourth anniversary of her daughter's disappearance, Mrs McCann recalls running outside, screaming: "Madeleine's gone! Someone's taken her!"

Later, she sank into fits and anguish and depression that eventually threatened to destroy her relationship with her husband, Gerry.

She writes: "I had an overwhelming urge to swim out across the ocean, as hard and as fast as I could; to swim and swim and swim until I was so far out and so exhausted I could just allow the water to pull me under and relieve me of this torment.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500990/Kate-McCann-felt-like-committing-suicide-after-Madeleines-disappearance.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 07:59:04 PM
Which post was that?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10052.msg486062#msg486062
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 08:00:33 PM
The psychologist who was supposed to have enough of an insight into her state of mind to testify said...
"I deduced it was an indication of how she felt rather than something she ever intended to do."
Just as Martin Brunt deduced regarding Brenda Leyland?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on September 06, 2018, 08:00:36 PM
But this is a cite ... sorry, no page number.

Snip
In a new book to mark the fourth anniversary of her daughter's disappearance, Mrs McCann recalls running outside, screaming: "Madeleine's gone! Someone's taken her!"

Later, she sank into fits and anguish and depression that eventually threatened to destroy her relationship with her husband, Gerry.

She writes: "I had an overwhelming urge to swim out across the ocean, as hard and as fast as I could; to swim and swim and swim until I was so far out and so exhausted I could just allow the water to pull me under and relieve me of this torment.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8500990/Kate-McCann-felt-like-committing-suicide-after-Madeleines-disappearance.html


I fail to understand why anyone can doubt the obvious desperation of a mother whose child had been taken, imo, and how she had thoughts of suicide.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 08:00:54 PM
The psychologist who was supposed to have enough of an insight into her state of mind to testify said "I deduced it was an indication of how she felt rather than something she ever intended to do."

Just in case you missed it.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 08:01:40 PM
Just as Martin Brunt deduced regarding Brenda Leyland?

I didn’t know Martin Brunt was a psychologist?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:06:57 PM
Which post was that?
#1755.  Looking forward to your acknowledgment that I posted a cite.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:08:19 PM
Oh SNAP!! What do I see before me?  Is it a cite?
yes that’s another cite I had forgotten I posted - lol!  So, 2 cites, yet still I get the heavy treatment.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 06, 2018, 08:09:43 PM
Just in case you missed it.
So she only felt suicidal?  Oh well that’s alright then.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2018, 08:11:46 PM
I didn’t know Martin Brunt was a psychologist?

There is still the requirement for cites concerning allegations made on this thread ... in my opinion it would be excellent if you transferred your zeal to that one.

If you have to ask me which one I will point it out but I'm sure with your eye for these details you will have clocked it already.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 08:11:53 PM
#1755.  Looking forward to your acknowledgment that I posted a cite.

I apologise, I missed your cite when catching up.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 08:12:37 PM
So she only felt suicidal?  Oh well that’s alright then.
Had Kate actually done it, then it would be considered "justice", "karma" or the such like.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 08:12:45 PM
There is still the requirement for cites concerning allegations made on this thread ... in my opinion it would be excellent if you transferred your zeal to that one.

If you have to ask me which one I will point it out but I'm sure with your eye for these details you will have clocked it already.

I am sure you are perfectly capable and willing.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 06, 2018, 08:13:11 PM
Had Kate actually done it, then it would be considered "justice", "karma" or the such like.

No, why?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on September 06, 2018, 08:19:43 PM
No, why?
From years of experience.  I'm not saying everyone would, but I'm sure some would.
I must admit I feel a bit like that when a murderer commits suicide (murder-suicide cases are very common), I think "well that saves the tax payer a lot of trouble".  Don't you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder%E2%80%93suicide

"Suicide after murder as a form of self-punishment due to guilt;"
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2018, 10:07:58 AM
As we have seen, Brenda Leyland, an intelligent and highly educated woman felt 'entitled' to indulge her pastime of excoriating a family from a neighbouring village who had suffered great misfortune.

Like all poison pen writers she was anonymous, she knew who her targets were, she knew where they lived, I would be very surprised if she didn't know where the kids went to school but they knew absolutely nothing about her or her activities.
In my opinion Brenda Leyland's online activities and her location (from her IP address) should have raised official concern ... and who is to say that Martin Brunt didn't recognise that by starting the Sky news investigation at the centre with the intention of working out?

However if it had all been nipped in the bud many years ago and the culture challenged I think there are many who would think twice about the risk of having the police knock at the door and I think Brenda Leyland would have been one of them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 07, 2018, 03:43:56 PM
Please remain on topic. TY

ETA  Members are well aware that doctored images have no place on this forum regardless of who made them or who posted them on the internet. This also applies to the links to such images.  If any member feels the need to share such information then please use the messaging facility. TY
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2018, 04:29:04 PM
It was a storm in a teacup, despite the hopes of the dossier compilers. They hoped the 'general public' would rise up in support of the McCanns and against the 'vile trolls' perhaps, but they didn't. They brought trouble to Brenda's door for nothing. The 'trolls' continue to 'troll', the media continues to complain, and the ;general public' continues to be disinterested. All they achieved was to push a vulnerable woman over the edge. What a waste of time and effort.

Al your opinion... My opinion is Brenda sadly brought trouble to her own door.... She was, a victim... A victim of the propaganda that has come out of Portugal that is supposed to prove the McCanns were involved as suggested by amaral et al... If you are silly enough to believe that.... Then no wonder so much anger towards the McCanns....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 07, 2018, 04:31:37 PM
Al your opinion... My opinion is Brenda sadly brought trouble to her own door.... She was, a victim... A victim of the propaganda that has come out of Portugal that is supposed to prove the McCanns were involved as suggested by amaral et al... If you are silly enough to believe that.... Then no wonder so much anger towards the McCanns....

Does that make you a victim of the propaganda that has come out of Team McCann?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2018, 04:33:17 PM
Does that make you a victim of the propaganda that has come out of Team McCann?

Not at all... My conclusion s are based on a true understanding of the evidence in the files... Nothing to do with team mccann... My day job requires me to continually assess evidence.. That's what makes, the difference...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on September 07, 2018, 05:05:36 PM
I think your idea that the dossier compilers wanted or expected a mass uprising of the genral public against the trolls is laughable frankly.  How on earth do you know this is what they hoped for?  I also think you are wrong to say the public isn’t interested or concerned with online bullying or abuse, I think the fact that it is so very often in the news shows that it is a valid issue that troubles many people, even if you’re not one of them.

It was you who suggested that the 'general public' reacted, not me. If the dossier compilers weren't trying to garner support why did they go to Sky? Were they trying to force the hand of the police, perhaps?

People may well be concerned about online bullying or abuse in general, I don't know. I was talking about it in relation to the McCanns in particular.

Do you think the news reflects public opinion or seeks to influence it? I don't think it's always easy to tell. I do know that their tales of 'trolls' had no effect on those who contributed to the fund for Amaral's defense. A lot of those who donated laughed at the media's suggestion that they were 'trolls'.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 07, 2018, 05:13:44 PM
It was you who suggested that the 'general public' reacted, not me. If the dossier compilers weren't trying to garner support why did they go to Sky? Were they trying to force the hand of the police, perhaps?

People may well be concerned about online bullying or abuse in general, I don't know. I was talking about it in relation to the McCanns in particular.

Do you think the news reflects public opinion or seeks to influence it? I don't think it's always easy to tell. I do know that their tales of 'trolls' had no effect on those who contributed to the fund for Amaral's defense. A lot of those who donated laughed at the media's suggestion that they were 'trolls'.
IMO... The compilers, wanted to highlight and hopefully stop the online abuse... A commendable action
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 07, 2018, 05:16:03 PM
It was you who suggested that the 'general public' reacted, not me. If the dossier compilers weren't trying to garner support why did they go to Sky? Were they trying to force the hand of the police, perhaps?

People may well be concerned about online bullying or abuse in general, I don't know. I was talking about it in relation to the McCanns in particular.

Do you think the news reflects public opinion or seeks to influence it? I don't think it's always easy to tell. I do know that their tales of 'trolls' had no effect on those who contributed to the fund for Amaral's defense. A lot of those who donated laughed at the media's suggestion that they were 'trolls'.
I can’t find an article written about Brenda pre her death but this one in the Daily Mail attracted over 1200 comments, the most recommended of which seem to suggest that many people disapproved of her actions and felt that Sky had don nothing wrong http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2782824/McCann-troll-Brenda-Leyland-sent-thousands-hate-tweets.html.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 07, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
A snapshot of public opinion

J, London, United Kingdom, 4 years ago

If you can't take it; don't deal it.... This woman seems to have acted like a school bully. She ranted in public, spouting out opinions and pure hatred towards people she did not know - but hid behind anonymity. When caught out - quite rightly so by Sky News - for such bullying behaviour, she clearly did not like it. Trolling is just a new word for bullying. And there needs to be laws against this kind of anonymous bullying. I do feel sorry for anyone who was on the receiving end of this sad woman's written rants.

967 voted up 176 voted down
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 07, 2018, 06:05:46 PM
Another Mail article on the subject in which the majority of the highest rated posts (with thousands of up votes) are disapproving of Brenda’s behaviour and internet abuse generally. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2781377/BREAKING-NEWS-Internet-troll-targeted-McCanns-dead-hotel-room-days-fleeing-home.html#comments
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on September 07, 2018, 06:13:43 PM
Posters please note that a number of posts have been spun off from threads some of which now form new topics.  Please ensure your posts are relevant to the thread heading. TY
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 26, 2018, 08:11:14 AM
To those who believe police matters should be solely the domain of the police and who deplore the actions of the media in shining a light on possible ciminal behaviour, what do you feel about the Telegraph’s investigation into Philip Green alleged sexual harrassment / bullying and Lord Hain’s revelation in the HoL yesterday?  Was this immoral and disgraceful in your view?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 26, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
To those who believe police matters should be solely the domain of the police and who deplore the actions of the media in shining a light on possible ciminal behaviour, what do you feel about the Telegraph’s investigation into Philip Green alleged sexual harrassment / bullying and Lord Hain’s revelation in the HoL yesterday?  Was this immoral and disgraceful in your view?

I suggest that question is given its own topic.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 26, 2018, 02:46:02 PM
Sure, we could also start another thread about a dear old man who racially abused a woman on a Ryan Air flight who has very publicly been named and shamed by the media.  There must be many on here who are outraged at the way the press have treated this man.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2018, 04:34:08 PM
Sure, we could also start another thread about a dear old man who racially abused a woman on a Ryan Air flight who has very publicly been named and shamed by the media.  There must be many on here who are outraged at the way the press have treated this man.

Comparing a horse with a donkey is futile and pointless really.

 I am not outraged he was on TV my questions would be why? is this news worthy? well NO not at all.  Same as Brenda- not news worthy
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2018, 04:56:01 PM
My view is all three deserved to be named and shamed... If you are not willing to stand up and defend what you say... Then don't say it... It really is a simple as that
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2018, 05:00:02 PM
My view is all three deserved to be named and shamed... If you are not willing to stand up and defend what you say... Then don't say it... It really is a simple as that

The police should have better things to do and there are worse crimes. name calling isn't nice but not worth the bother.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 26, 2018, 05:03:49 PM
The police should have better things to do and there are worse crimes. name calling isn't nice but not worth the bother.
Depends on what the name calling involves... The law should be enforced and the newspapers should name and shame... As they have done in all three, cases
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 26, 2018, 05:12:49 PM
Depends on what the name calling involves... The law should be enforced and the newspapers should name and shame... As they have dine in all three, cases

It is all relative -some people like to know what Victoria Becham is wearing everyday and demand it be news worthy, somepeople like to look at mamary glands on some newpapers but some of us like articles which are news worthy.
Notice the level of newspapers the McCanns used... I refer to them as the sleazymags as they only print mostly trash.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 26, 2018, 06:05:11 PM
Comparing a horse with a donkey is futile and pointless really.

I am not outraged he was on TV my questions would be why? is this news worthy? well NO not at all.  Same as Brenda- not news worthy
FYI: Twitter is “in a public place” unless you choose to protect your tweets.  If the dear old man in question dies of shame whose fault will it be?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 28, 2018, 09:59:30 AM
FYI: Twitter is “in a public place” unless you choose to protect your tweets.  If the dear old man in question dies of shame whose fault will it be?

Oh my, swing a cat - hit a door and blame the cat or the door!

We are led to believe the MCs do not do social media so there was no direct contact from Brenda to the parents. The dear old man was having a face to face altrication with a woman. It was reported on social media and went viral- the airline also contacted the police. newsworthy? no not at all. And what Brenda did was not newsworthy either.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 10:05:19 AM
Oh my, swing a cat - hit a door and blame the cat or the door!

We are led to believe the MCs do not do social media so there was no direct contact from Brenda to the parents. The dear old man was having a face to face altrication with a woman. It was reported on social media and went viral- the airline also contacted the police. newsworthy? no not at all. And what Brenda did was not newsworthy either.

Why do posters want to keep up the Brenda story..... The press were absolutely  right to get involved... As were sky news... The type of behaviour Brenda engaged in needs to be stopped
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 10:06:09 AM
Oh my, swing a cat - hit a door and blame the cat or the door!

We are led to believe the MCs do not do social media so there was no direct contact from Brenda to the parents. The dear old man was having a face to face altrication with a woman. It was reported on social media and went viral- the airline also contacted the police. newsworthy? no not at all. And what Brenda did was not newsworthy either.
Who are you to judge what is or is not newsworthy?  The professionals deemed otherwise.  If this poor old man decidedto kill himself whose fault would that be, in your view?  What about Philip Green?  Were the Telegraph wrong to investigate him?  Surely that’s the job of thr police?  Do you have sympathy for the poor old billionaire?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 28, 2018, 10:14:57 AM
Who are you to judge what is or is not newsworthy?  The professionals deemed otherwise.  If this poor old man decidedto kill himself whose fault would that be, in your view?  What about Philip Green?  Were the Telegraph wrong to investigate him?  Surely that’s the job of thr police?  Do you have sympathy for the poor old billionaire?

Who are you to judge me judging? I made my point you don't like it? aw.
Professionals? what really? 'sN.....s'

You can stop with the stupid irrelevent questions. I won't reply to them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on October 28, 2018, 10:43:58 AM
Who are you to judge what is or is not newsworthy?  The professionals deemed otherwise.  If this poor old man decidedto kill himself whose fault would that be, in your view?  What about Philip Green?  Were the Telegraph wrong to investigate him?  Surely that’s the job of thr police?  Do you have sympathy for the poor old billionaire?

I might be wrong but no complaint was made to the police,the Telegraph got wind of a story that Green had paid NDA to some personnel and were investigating that.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 11:34:03 AM
I might be wrong but no complaint was made to the police,the Telegraph got wind of a story that Green had paid NDA to some personnel and were investigating that.

That is what I understand to G-Unit.  I heard the deputy ed of the Telegraph on the radio discussing the case when Green was outed in HOL.    She said that they had received information from someone involved in the case and that NDAs were signed. The telegraph went to court to try and publish the story and won initially, then at the higher court they lost as the fact that Green was Chairman of a large company meant that the public interest case was overuled by any possible damage to that company.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 12:47:10 PM
I might be wrong but no complaint was made to the police,the Telegraph got wind of a story that Green had paid NDA to some personnel and were investigating that.
It's irrelevant what the media were investigating, the fact is they attempted to "take the law into their own hands" by their determination to bring the details into the public eye.  If Philip Green jumps off his yacht as a result, whose fault will that be?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on October 28, 2018, 12:55:45 PM
It's irrelevant what the media were investigating, the fact is they attempted to "take the law into their own hands" by their determination to bring the details into the public eye.  If Philip Green jumps off his yacht as a result, whose fault will that be?

His.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on October 28, 2018, 01:00:11 PM
It's irrelevant what the media were investigating, the fact is they attempted to "take the law into their own hands" by their determination to bring the details into the public eye.  If Philip Green jumps off his yacht as a result, whose fault will that be?

Why is irrelevant,the Telegraph released the detail of the MP's thieving covered up as expenses,was that wrong,play with fire expect to get burnt in a free democratic society.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 01:20:44 PM
His.
Not the media's or the women who went to the media or Lord Hain for revealing his name in parliament?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 01:21:56 PM
Why is irrelevant,the Telegraph released the detail of the MP's thieving covered up as expenses,was that wrong,play with fire expect to get burnt in a free democratic society.
No it was not wrong, that's my point.  Start laying the law down about what the media can and cannot report is a recipe for disaster IMO, nor should they be held accountable if those playing with fire decide to jump on the fire themselves, unless of course the reporting is false. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 01:28:51 PM
His.

I agree
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 01:33:00 PM
Not the media's or the women who went to the media or Lord Hain for revealing his name in parliament?

He courted the media when it suited him but when something was alleged that he didn't want out in the general domain then he silence the Telegraph it seems.

Brenda never courted the media and she was a private person prior to the outrageous media coverage of her. It is a totally different thing IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 01:39:29 PM
He courted the media when it suited him but when something was alleged that he didn't want out in the general domain then he silence the Telegraph it seems.

Brenda never courted the media and she was a private person prior to the outrageous media coverage of her. It is a totally different thing IMO.
Ah, so do you think the law needs to be changed so that not all people are considered equal under the law, in other words one rule for some, one for others?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 01:51:21 PM
He courted the media when it suited him but when something was alleged that he didn't want out in the general domain then he silence the Telegraph it seems.

Brenda never courted the media and she was a private person prior to the outrageous media coverage of her. It is a totally different thing IMO.

Twitter is the media... No excuses
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 28, 2018, 01:57:25 PM
Why do posters want to keep up the Brenda story..... The press were absolutely  right to get involved... As were sky news... The type of behaviour Brenda engaged in needs to be stopped

So you want to kill investigative journalism?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 02:16:01 PM
No it was not wrong, that's my point.  Start laying the law down about what the media can and cannot report is a recipe for disaster IMO, nor should they be held accountable if those playing with fire decide to jump on the fire themselves, unless of course the reporting is false.

If what is being considered for publication is already a police matter then the media absolutely should not take the law into their own hands.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 02:16:47 PM
So you want to kill investigative journalism?
What gives you that impression from what Davel wrote?  Or do you consider Brenda's activities to fall into the category of "investigative journalism"?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 02:17:52 PM
If what is being considered for publication is already a police matter then the media absolutely should not take the law into their own hands.
Presumably then your sympathies must lie with the dear old man who racially abused another passenger on Ryanair flight recently?  Poor man must be going through hell.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 02:27:17 PM
Presumably then your sympathies must lie with the dear old man who racially abused another passenger on Ryanair flight recently?  Poor man must be going through hell.

Is it a police matter ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 02:36:45 PM
Is it a police matter ?
What difference does that make to whether or not you feel this man has been victimized by the media and worthy of your sympathy?  I don’t know if it is a police matter or not - should it be in your view?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 02:46:32 PM
Twitter is the media... No excuses

How many people did Brenda tweet to? 100 - 200 people or the millions that Philip Green wanted to read about his good deeds and fame.   Twitter is NOT the media however you want to make it so, IMO.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 02:47:39 PM
So you want to kill investigative journalism?
I don't... It seems sceptics do... Martin Brunt was a journalist and broke no laws... Yet has been pilloried... I'm al for investigative journalism...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 02:49:54 PM
How many people did Brenda tweet to? 100 - 200 people or the millions that Philip Green wanted to read about his good deeds and fame.   Twitter is NOT the media however you want to make it so, IMO.

Twitter is part of the media... Brenda chose to het involved in promoting hatred....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 02:50:17 PM
I don't... It seems sceptics do... Martin Brunt was a journalist and broke no laws... Yet has been pilloried... I'm al for investigative journalism...

Unless they question the McCanns' story? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 02:52:03 PM
Twitter is part of the media... Brenda chose to het involved in promoting hatred....

No twitter is no more a part of the media than this forum or facebook Davel.  Did she always promote hatred or merely question their stories most of the time?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 02:52:23 PM
How many people did Brenda tweet to? 100 - 200 people or the millions that Philip Green wanted to read about his good deeds and fame.   Twitter is NOT the media however you want to make it so, IMO.
Twitter is part of that 21st century phenomenon known as “Social Media” is it not?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 02:54:05 PM
Unless they question the McCanns' story?
I’m all for that too, as long as they don’t publish speculation from unnamed sources or false information.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 02:59:13 PM
What difference does that make to whether or not you feel this man has been victimized by the media and worthy of your sympathy?  I don’t know if it is a police matter or not - should it be in your view?

If he acted illegally then yes, obviously.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 03:02:31 PM
I don't... It seems sceptics do... Martin Brunt was a journalist and broke no laws... Yet has been pilloried... I'm al for investigative journalism...

Investigative journalism yes and if any laws have been broken pass that information on to the authorities for them to take forward. The media should never act as judge and jury.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 03:09:15 PM
Investigative journalism yes and if any laws have been broken pass that information on to the authorities for them to take forward. The media should never act as judge and jury.

Neither should the public
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
Neither should the public

They don’t.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 03:16:56 PM
Unless they question the McCanns' story?

You're wrong again.... Anything based on evidence is totally acceptable
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 03:17:33 PM
They don’t.

They do and you have
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 03:23:16 PM
If he acted illegally then yes, obviously.
First question neatly avoided.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 03:26:02 PM
They don’t.
Do you not read #McCann on twitter, or any of the myriad forums or comments pages where the public frequently judge the McCanns and find them guilty of all manner of crimes, from having a horrible house to murder?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 03:29:04 PM
Do you not read #McCann on twitter, or any of the myriad forums or comments pages where the public frequently judge the McCanns and find them guilty of all manner of crimes, from having a horrible house to murder?

Merely opinion.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 03:29:33 PM
First question neatly avoided.

Sorry what was the question ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 03:44:36 PM
Twitter is part of that 21st century phenomenon known as “Social Media” is it not?

Paper can be described as media as can photography if we are being picky.   Social media wouldn't have "social" in front of it if it was the mainstream media. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 03:52:51 PM
Paper can be described as media as can photography if we are being picky.   Social media wouldn't have "social" in front of it if it was the mainstream media.

Social media wouldn't be called social media if it wasn't part of the media
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 03:56:19 PM
Merely opinion.
opinion with no judgement?!  LOL.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 03:58:54 PM
Sorry what was the question ?
You asked if it was a police matter and I asked “What difference does that make to whether or not you feel this man has been victimized by the media and is worthy of your sympathy?”
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 04:00:06 PM
Social media wouldn't be called social media if it wasn't part of the media

Are you trying to compare to the probably 100 or so people who may have seen Brenda's tweets before her outing, with the millions that read newspapers and watch the TV news?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 04:00:43 PM
Paper can be described as media as can photography if we are being picky.   Social media wouldn't have "social" in front of it if it was the mainstream media.
Who was talking about the mainstream media?  You appear to have shifted the goalposts in this discussion.  When Trump tweets is he not using twitter to inform millions of people of his views?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 04:01:34 PM
Are you trying to compare to the probably 100 or so people who may have seen Brenda's tweets before her outing, with the millions that read newspapers and watch the TV news?
Cite for “100 or so” please.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 04:11:31 PM
Cite for “100 or so” please.

Brenda had 182 followers before her outing. Not all of them would be on twitter all the time I assume.  Were you there all the time when you were on twitter VS?

Cite for her followers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/was-brenda-leyland-really-a-troll-mccanns
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 04:15:54 PM
Brenda had 182 followers before her outing. Not all of them would be on twitter all the time I assume.  Were you there all the time when you were on twitter VS?

Cite for her followers

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/was-brenda-leyland-really-a-troll-mccanns
Are you aware that tweets can be seen by other tweeters that aren’t your followers?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 04:21:10 PM
Are you aware that tweets can be seen by other tweeters that aren’t your followers?

Yes I am but how many of those other people would have seen her tweets?  I have read there are millions of tweets a day. How many would see her tweets if they weren't searching for them.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 04:25:18 PM
Yes I am but how many of those other people would have seen her tweets?  I have read there are millions of tweets a day. How many would see her tweets if they weren't searching for them.
Who knows?  It’s kind of beside the point though IMO.  Many people who tweet hope that their tweets will be retweeted and as widely read as possible, particularly those who believe they are taking part in some sort of campaign for justice.  They actively want to be read and to convince as many people as possible to support and join their cause, otherwise why do it in the first place?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 04:40:41 PM
Who knows?  It’s kind of beside the point though IMO.  Many people who tweet hope that their tweets will be retweeted and as widely read as possible, particularly those who believe they are taking part in some sort of campaign for justice.  They actively want to be read and to convince as many people as possible to support and join their cause, otherwise why do it in the first place?

I have no idea why people tweet but my point was very few people would have known who she was or saw her tweets. Then she was monstered by the media at the behest of some McCann supporters. Philip Green was already a well known figure to the mainstream media and he actively courted them to promote a certain image.  Brenda did neither.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 04:41:01 PM
Yes I am but how many of those other people would have seen her tweets?  I have read there are millions of tweets a day. How many would see her tweets if they weren't searching for them.

you seem to want to justify brendas nasty tweets,...thats up to you...I think her behaviour was totally unacceptable....
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 04:42:59 PM
you seem yto want to justify brendas nasty tweets,...thats up to you...I think her behaviour was totally unacceptable....

Of course and you are entitled to your opinion as Brenda thought she was too, until the mainstream media made her into a scapegoat IMO.   
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 04:43:16 PM
I have no idea why people tweet but my point was very few people would have known who she was or saw her tweets. Then she was monstered by the media at the behest of some McCann supporters. Philip Green was already a well known figure to the mainstream media and he actively courted them to promote a certain image.  Brenda did neither.
What about due process?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 28, 2018, 05:07:57 PM
Of course and you are entitled to your opinion as Brenda thought she was too, until the mainstream media made her into a scapegoat IMO.

The difference is I'm happy to stand by everything  I have posted..  Brenda wasnt
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2018, 05:23:47 PM
Of course and you are entitled to your opinion as Brenda thought she was too, until the mainstream media made her into a scapegoat IMO.

As far as I know Sally Bercow tweeted once ... and her offending tweet cost her dearly.  Was she a scapegoat?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 06:26:19 PM
You asked if it was a police matter and I asked “What difference does that make to whether or not you feel this man has been victimized by the media and is worthy of your sympathy?”

I don’t know the story as I’ve been away but generally I’m not sure what the media getting involved actually achieves. Rictual humiliation? The thing with that is for every individual posting a comment, appalled at his actions there’ll be another praising his courage to act as he did......Tommy Robinson is a case in point. What really is so wrong with the law doing what it is supposed to do, without let or hinderance ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2018, 06:34:23 PM
Cite for “100 or so” please.
It was a guess.  No cite needed.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 06:45:20 PM
It was a guess.  No cite needed.
A cite was provided and it wasn’t a guess, it was an estimate.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 28, 2018, 06:47:35 PM
A cite was provided and it wasn’t a guess, it was an estimate.
OK, estimate and not a guess.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 06:47:41 PM
I don’t know the story as I’ve been away but generally I’m not sure what the media getting involved actually achieves. Rictual humiliation? The thing with that is for every individual posting a comment, appalled at his actions there’ll be another praising his courage to act as he did......Tommy Robinson is a case in point. What really is so wrong with the law doing what it is supposed to do, without let or hinderance ?
Hmm, you may struggle to find many people praising the actions of the racist as “courageous” - depends which websites you visit I guess.  Nevertheless you have still failed to give me a straight answer.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
Hmm, you may struggle to find many people praising the actions of the racist as “courageous” - depends which websites you visit I guess.  Nevertheless you have still failed to give me a straight answer.

Have you seen the praise heaped on Tommy Robinson for his actions?

Just because you and I think someone’s behaviour is abhorrent doesn’t mean your neighbour will......and that’s why individuals should be investigated, charged and tried by the relevant legal authorities and not the media.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 07:06:44 PM
Have you seen the praise heaped on Tommy Robinson for his actions?

Just because you and I think someone’s behaviour is abhorrent doesn’t mean your neighbour will......and that’s why individuals should be investigated, charged and tried by the relevant legal authorities and not the media.
Question still dodged.  Tommy Robinson was on a mission for justice as he saw it, obviously some people who follow these misguided and vigilantie-ish “justice seekers” are going to heap praise on that sort of individual, it’s a little bit different from an uncouth old man racially verbally abusing a perfectly innocent woman on an aeroplane.  I’m sure you can see the difference if you try hard enough.  Now, do you have some sympathy for the man at the heart of the racist on a plane story or not? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 07:10:40 PM
By highlighting individuals’ anti-social, hateful, sexist or racist behaviour does the media not invite the public to reinforce how vile the majority of decent people find such behaviour and in turn does that not discourage others from behaving reprehensibly?  Is that not the possibly unintended consequence of such media coverage and is that not a good thing or is it a bad thing?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 07:22:07 PM
Question still dodged.  Tommy Robinson was on a mission for justice as he saw it, obviously some people who follow these misguided and vigilantie-ish “justice seekers” are going to heap praise on that sort of individual, it’s a little bit different from an uncouth old man racially verbally abusing a perfectly innocent woman on an aeroplane.  I’m sure you can see the difference if you try hard enough.  Now, do you have some sympathy for the man at the heart of the racist on a plane story or not?

I’m sure the old man your speaking about felt justified in his tirade too and I’m sure you’d get misguided individuals who’d agree.

As to your question, the gentleman is a despicable individual who deserves to be punished but within the law, not within what is deemed acceptable to the Sky news editor.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 07:26:53 PM
I’m sure the old man your speaking about felt justified in his tirade too and I’m sure you’d get misguided individuals who’d agree.

As to your question, the gentleman is a despicable individual who deserves to be punished but within the law, not within what is deemed acceptable to the Sky news editor.
So docI take it that you wholly disagree with all the media coverage surrounding this case?  Imagine one of the Tapas group was filmed making obscene gestures in the vicinity of small children and someone went to the papers about it or tweeted it, and it went viral, would you be outraged if the media picked up the story?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 07:34:43 PM
So docI take it that you wholly disagree with all the media coverage surrounding this case?  Imagine one of the Tapas group was filmed making obscene gestures in the vicinity of small children and someone went to the papers about it or tweeted it, and it went viral, would you be outraged if the media picked up the story?

I’ve been away so I’ve no idea about this case other than what I’ve read here. Again if one of the Tapas group was acting illegally then l would hope the law would take its course, if not it’s none of our business.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 07:52:50 PM
I’ve been away so I’ve no idea about this case other than what I’ve read here. Again if one of the Tapas group was acting illegally then l would hope the law would take its course, if not it’s none of our business.
I guess you would also then support Philip Green’s right to due process?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 28, 2018, 10:03:01 PM
I guess you would also then support Philip Green’s right to due process?

Isn’t that the only civiliised way to behave ? What else do you suggest, mob rule ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 10:37:57 PM
Isn’t that the only civiliised way to behave ? What else do you suggest, mob rule ?
I’m not a fan of mob rule, but I am a fan of freedom of the press to report whatever they see fit, so long as it is accurate and not fanciful.  How about you?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 28, 2018, 10:44:43 PM
I’m not a fan of mob rule, but I am a fan of freedom of the press to report whatever they see fit, so long as it is accurate and not fanciful.  How about you?

So would social media equate to the press in your eyes as apparently you consider it "media".
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2018, 10:49:38 PM
So would social media equate to the press in your eyes as apparently you consider it "media".
No, the press is the press, the clue’s in the name. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2018, 12:27:08 AM
I’m not a fan of mob rule, but I am a fan of freedom of the press to report whatever they see fit, so long as it is accurate and not fanciful.  How about you?

I’m a fan of legally punishing those who partake in criminal behaviour. The press should never override the function of due process and it seems that’s what you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 12:33:22 AM
It was a guess.  No cite needed.

There must have been thousands Rob.

I never tweeted Brendas real, or internet, name.  I just entered topics and was surprised to see a name come up .... and thinking to myself that person knows nothing about the case, meaning true facts.   Thinking why is he /she trolling and spouting out any old hating stuff.

There must have been thousands like me .... imo




ETA.  Correcting my mistake.  Thanks to Sunny
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: carlymichelle on October 29, 2018, 05:16:27 AM
I’m a fan of legally punishing those who partake in criminal behaviour. The press should never override the function of due process and it seems that’s what you are suggesting.

brenda  wasnt guilty of a  crime  sky news and  mcann supporters  took matters into their own hands  for revenge  imo
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 06:50:02 AM
There must have been thousands Rob.

I never tweeted Brendas real, or internet, name.  I just entered topics and was surprised to see this agressive name come up .... and thinking to myself that person knows nothing about the case, meaning true facts.   Thinking why is he /she trolling and spouting out any old hating stuff.

There must have been thousands like me .... imo

Was @sweepface the aggressive name or was it Brenda Leyland?

Are you talking about before Brenda was outed or afterwards?

Where did you see her tweets?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 29, 2018, 07:12:18 AM
I’m a fan of legally punishing those who partake in criminal behaviour. The press should never override the function of due process and it seems that’s what you are suggesting.
Absolute rubbish, nowhere have I suggested that.  What you seem to be suggesting is that there should be zero reporting of anyone suspected of any crime until they have been cleared or found guilty, nor any reporting of any reprehensible behaviour by anyone at all, ever, in case it interferes with due process at a later date.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 07:30:22 AM
From my reading on twitter, Brenda's name and identity was found months before it was passed to Sky News and discussed between supporters on there.

I believe her information was passed to the police who said she hadn't broken any laws, then these same supporters and probably others decided to go to Martin Brunt and Sky News.  I wonder if it was a concerted effort between the media or simply that Martin Brunt was the only one who ran with the ball, then once he had the other media jumped on the bandwagon.  That is how it looks to me as, for example the Daily Mail had her identity very quickly.

(https://twitter.com/winnower1/status/520719702558261248)

This person knew who she was before Brenda's outing.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 29, 2018, 07:57:36 AM
From my reading on twitter, Brenda's name and identity was found months before it was passed to Sky News and discussed between supporters on there.

I believe her information was passed to the police who said she hadn't broken any laws, then these same supporters and probably others decided to go to Martin Brunt and Sky News.  I wonder if it was a concerted effort between the media or simply that Martin Brunt was the only one who ran with the ball, then once he had the other media jumped on the bandwagon.  That is how it looks to me as, for example the Daily Mail had her identity very quickly.

(https://twitter.com/winnower1/status/520719702558261248)

This person knew who she was before Brenda's outing.
I believe that Brenda used to tweet under her own name, using the same account. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 10:10:44 AM
Was @sweepface the aggressive name or was it Brenda Leyland?

Are you talking about before Brenda was outed or afterwards?

Where did you see her tweets?

No, according to one site she had another name which was agressive and threatening, IMO.
[They may not have been tweets, but posts in a forum.  Where else did she post ?]

I cant remember it and dont intend to search, but if nobody finds it, I am very willing to remove my comment.  Let's give it 24 hours, shall we, to see if anyone comes up with that name and its source ? 

Please remind me and i will remove it if nothing is found.  I don't read everything on here anymore, so it would be good to pm me as well as post the reminder if you wish.



ETA:
Both this post and a previous one amended to correct my apparent mistake
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2018, 10:20:55 AM
Absolute rubbish, nowhere have I suggested that.  What you seem to be suggesting is that there should be zero reporting of anyone suspected of any crime until they have been cleared or found guilty, nor any reporting of any reprehensible behaviour by anyone at all, ever, in case it interferes with due process at a later date.

Tell me VS, if the parents were tried in this country of being involved in their daughter’s disappearance do you think they’d get a fair trial and if not why not ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
No, according to one site she had another name which was agressive and threatening, IMO.
[They may not have been tweets, but posts in a forum.  Where else did she post ?]

I cant remember it and dont intend to search, but if nobody finds it, I am very willing to remove my comment.  Let's give it 24 hours, shall we, to see if anyone comes up with that name and its source ? 

Please remind me and i will remove it if nothing is found.  I don't read everthing on here anymore, so it would be good to pm me as well as post the reminder if you wish.

Do you or anyone else have evidence of this other name that Brenda is alleged to have used? I have read a lot of information about her but never heard of that.

I would appreciate  information and a cite on this if it is indeed true.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 29, 2018, 02:50:37 PM
Tell me VS, if the parents were tried in this country of being involved in their daughter’s disappearance do you think they’d get a fair trial and if not why not ?
I’m sure they would, yes.  Probably not in Portugal though.  Tell me,  should the MSM be banned from reporting on the reprehensible behaviour of others under any circumstances, if so why?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2018, 04:22:14 PM
I’m sure they would, yes.  Probably not in Portugal though.  Tell me,  should the MSM be banned from reporting on the reprehensible behaviour of others under any circumstances, if so why?

When you see the almost universally negative comments under every newspaper article about the McCanns, comments from individuals some of whom would be asked to do jury duty, can you honestly say the parents would get a fair trial ? Just out of interest why do you think the parents would get a fair trial here but not in Portugal?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2018, 04:50:34 PM
Tell me VS, if the parents were tried in this country of being involved in their daughter’s disappearance do you think they’d get a fair trial and if not why not ?

If there was no evidence in Portugal to charge anyone with any type of offence in relation to Madeleine's disappearance ... let alone bring anyone to trial ... don't you think it is a bit presumptive of you to lust after a trial in England?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2018, 05:13:08 PM
When you see the almost universally negative comments under every newspaper article about the McCanns, comments from individuals some of whom would be asked to do jury duty, can you honestly say the parents would get a fair trial ? Just out of interest why do you think the parents would get a fair trial here but not in Portugal?

Coz imo they has all been told to say so on the basis of no evidence but alot of belief and mythology.
After eleven years of "study and research" they still haven't the first clue about the Portuguese legal system other than "it must be bent and everywhere else isn't"
Key:
They = Supporters
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2018, 05:20:42 PM
If there was no evidence in Portugal to charge anyone with any type of offence in relation to Madeleine's disappearance ... let alone bring anyone to trial ... don't you think it is a bit presumptive of you to lust after a trial in England?

It’s a hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point. Google it....I’m sure Wikipedia will explain.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 05:45:12 PM
Do you or anyone else have evidence of this other name that Brenda is alleged to have used? I have read a lot of information about her but never heard of that.

I would appreciate  information and a cite on this if it is indeed true.

I have had a very quick shufty and I cant find the page that I skimmed over, late one evening, in the wee small hours.  The name was something like Bruiser, but I think I must have mistaken it being Brenda, perhaps they, Bruiser and another unpleasantly named poster, were talking about her ?     Dunno now.

Anyway i will delete the offending bit.

Thanks for alerting me.  I really shouldn't research when exhausted ! 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 29, 2018, 05:48:12 PM
When you see the almost universally negative comments under every newspaper article about the McCanns, comments from individuals some of whom would be asked to do jury duty, can you honestly say the parents would get a fair trial ? Just out of interest why do you think the parents would get a fair trial here but not in Portugal?
How’s about breaking the habit of a lifetime and doing me the courtesy of answering my question first before posing one of your own?  Happy to reply once you have.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on October 29, 2018, 05:54:36 PM
How’s about breaking the habit of a lifetime and doing me the courtesy of answering my question first before posing one of your own?  Happy to reply once you have.

When you ask question after question after question without an input then it’s difficult to ask you a question. Perhaps you can break the habit of a lifetime and answer a question without demanding anything in return ? Novel idea I know......!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 29, 2018, 06:03:30 PM
When you ask question after question after question without an input then it’s difficult to ask you a question. Perhaps you can break the habit of a lifetime and answer a question without demanding anything in return ? Novel idea I know......!
Your first sentence makes no sense.  I have answered all your questions save the last one unless you can provide a cite to show otherwise.  You, on the other hand... Tell me why I should do your bidding when you ignore mine?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 06:11:48 PM
Coz imo they has all been told to say so on the basis of no evidence but alot of belief and mythology.
After eleven years of "study and research" they still haven't the first clue about the Portuguese legal system other than "it must be bent and everywhere else isn't"
Key:
They = Supporters

I resent that. 

Nobody has Ever told me what to say

And I am pretty sure that nobody else on our side has been told what to say either.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 29, 2018, 06:25:11 PM

I resent that

Nobody has Ever told me what to say

And I am pretty sure that nobody else on our side has been told what to say either.

Well your "side" as you call it uses the same arguments and in some instances the same syntax.

Amos 3.3
QED
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2018, 06:29:11 PM
It’s a hypothetical scenario to illustrate a point. Google it....I’m sure Wikipedia will explain.

What hypothesis are you illustrating?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 06:38:29 PM
I have had a very quick shufty and I cant find the page that I skimmed over, late one evening, in the wee small hours.  The name was something like Bruiser, but I think I must have mistaken it being Brenda, perhaps they, Bruiser and another unpleasantly named poster, were talking about her ?     Dunno now.

Anyway i will delete the offending bit.

Thanks for alerting me.  I really shouldn't research when exhausted !

Many thanks sadie. I have had another look and not found anything.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on October 29, 2018, 06:40:54 PM
Many thanks sadie. I have had another look and not found anything.

I'm waiting for a cite from you on another thread.  Please oblige or amend your post.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 06:52:51 PM
Well your "side" as you call it uses the same arguments and in some instances the same syntax.

Amos 3.3
QED

QED Rubbish!

Some of us have independantly worked out that  Amaral was wrong, misunderstanding the lack of dog evidence and other things.

No-one has shown any criminal intents or criminal history with any of the Tapas group.  There are plenty of other things that we have all independantly noticed.

The arguments are there and in our own words we are going to use them.  That is what people do. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 07:04:00 PM
I'm waiting for a cite from you on another thread.  Please oblige or amend your post.

I am waiting for a cite too, which never came.  But it was few weeks ago now and I have let it rest.

I do find it strange, nay hypercritical, that someone who supports cites so vigorously on their signature, fails to give cites themselves, despite demanding them of other people all the time.



I am glad that you noticed my error on the Brenda Layland name and caused me to relook at the situation.  Thank you for asking for that cite. 


However Sunny, i do think that generally you overdo the demanding of cites; it disrupts the flow of the forum tbh.
No offence meant.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 07:17:32 PM
I am waiting for a cite too, which never came.  But it was few weeks ago now and I have let it rest.

I do find it strange, nay hypercritical, that someone who supports cites so vigorously on their signature, fails to give cites themselves, despite demanding them of other people all the time.



I am glad that you noticed my error on the Brenda Layland name and caused me to relook at the situation.  Thank you for asking for that cite. 


However Sunny, i do think that generally you overdo the demanding of cites; it disrupts the flow of the forum tbh.
No offence meant.

I do try to only ask for ones that feel are important. Sadie could you tell me which cite you are waiting for. I must have forgotten about it as I thought I was up to date.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on October 29, 2018, 07:33:30 PM
I do try to only ask for ones that feel are important. Sadie could you tell me which cite you are waiting for. I must have forgotten about it as I thought I was up to date.

I wish I could, but I haven't a clue now.  I let it go.   If you really want to find it, may I suggest that you wade thru my posts.  It was a short time before you got your new signature IIRC ... cos that sig. made me smile !

Now I must go.  Fish and chips from the chippy tonight.  Yum yum!

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 07:37:57 PM
I wish I could, but I haven't a clue now.  I let it go.   If you really want to find it, may I suggest that you wade thru my posts.  It was a short time before you got your new signature IIRC ... cos that sig. made me smile !

Now I must go.  Fish and chips from the chippy tonight.  Yum yum!

Enjoy sadie. I love that too. 

I'll try and have a look back.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on October 29, 2018, 08:42:59 PM
I wish I could, but I haven't a clue now.  I let it go.   If you really want to find it, may I suggest that you wade thru my posts.  It was a short time before you got your new signature IIRC ... cos that sig. made me smile !

Now I must go.  Fish and chips from the chippy tonight.  Yum yum!

I hope you are enjoying your fish and chips sadie.

I have searched back and only found one cite that I didn't provide you and I modified my post.  I have found cite requests made to two other posters but I am not sure if they were complied with.

Here is the cite request to me

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9310.msg473822#msg473822

My response is further down the thread and the offending post was altered.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Nicholas on October 30, 2018, 11:07:03 AM
Interesting thread...

When Simon Hall confessed to murder someone made the following statement aimed at me..

"I wonder if a decent journalist will now track her down and put her under pressure
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7559-10-year-campaign-for-miscarriage-of-justice-ends-with-a-confession

I also find it interesting to note many of you appear to use a pen name or pseudonym.

Is that through fear?

In the lead up to Simon Hall's inquest, a member of this forum (this persons identity was known btw) approached others to make statements to the police about me, presumably to support the false and malicious claims being made by Halls family members and others, about me, his confession and why he hung himself.

Their 'crimes' existed only in the eyes of those who took it  upon themselves to compile the dossier

Surely you should:

a) contact the social media platform and point out someone is breaking it's rules ( if they are)

b) consult lawyers if you think someone is committing libel ( but you have to be the alleged victim to do this)

b) contact police if you believe someone is committing the crimes of harassment or stalking. ( with evidence )

c) not take it upon yourself to contact the media about one particular individual and encourage them to single that person out before the police have investigated that person.


   Or maybe I would ignore the posts as they were someones opinion and not threats against someone. It's called freedom of speech. You mention threats, where did Brenda ever make a threat?

   From Sky news  "she had tweeted or retweeted 2,210 posts, of which 424 mentioned the McCanns. Her tweets did not constitute a criminal offence, the inquest heard. ''

The people who compiled the dossier took it upon themselves to define what is acceptable or not for individuals to say and then in contacting the press engaged in harassing an individual, which is something they were supposedly against!

Interesting

Also interesting is a women named Heidi visited Simon Hall several days before his death. A forum member here calling themselves Heidi made several posts around this time. Heidi's posts have now been removed it seems?





 

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Nicholas on October 30, 2018, 12:41:29 PM
A huge amount of work was done by a site named 'McCannhateexposed', which seemed to appear in 2012. It was viewable until early 2014 but is now member's only.

Looking at it on wayback there are lists of names who, they assert, are part of a 'Hate Campaign' against the Canns. Some of the people listed have always used their own names, such as Tony Bennett and Pat Brown. Others who posted anonymously had their real names listed with their usernames.

I don't understand why anyone would put so much time and effort into gathering such a lot of information about others. If the intention was to inform why did it go private in 2014?

Does Tony Bennett run the Jill Havern forum? Anyone?

Bennett, 65, of Harlow in Essex, was found to have breached on at least 13 occasions the undertaking not to publish allegations linking the couple, from Rothley in Leicestershire, with their daughter's disappearance
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21534603

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9046508/Retired-lawyer-faces-jail-for-harassing-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann.html
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 06, 2018, 10:52:19 PM
Anyone concerned for the well being of the poor men who have been outed by the media for their Grenfell Tower bonfire antics? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 06, 2018, 10:53:44 PM
Anyone concerned for the well being of the poor men who have been outed by the media for their Grenfell Tower bonfire antics?

Nope!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: barrier on November 07, 2018, 07:04:03 AM
Anyone concerned for the well being of the poor men who have been outed by the media for their Grenfell Tower bonfire antics?
Have they actually broken any laws?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2018, 07:22:45 AM
Have they actually broken any laws?

Legally speaking this is debatable.  Although releasing it on Social Media could be a Public Order Offence.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 07:31:44 AM
Have they actually broken any laws?
Doubtful.  Being named and shamed in the media should be enough punishment, but this is a police matter which the media has covered extensively therefore in theory denying these poor men their “due process”.  I trust your sympathies lie with them, rather than with anyone who might have suffered distress by their actions?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 10:55:50 AM
Doubtful.  Being named and shamed in the media should be enough punishment, but this is a police matter which the media has covered extensively therefore in theory denying these poor men their “due process”.  I trust your sympathies lie with them, rather than with anyone who might have suffered distress by their actions?

The chances are the victims of Grenfell’s time is more occupied dealing with the effects of the tragedy than getting distressed about some lowlifes and their appalling behaviour.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 11:00:36 AM
The chances are the victims of Grenfell’s time is more occupied dealing with the effects of the tragedy than getting distressed about some lowlifes and their appalling behaviour.
Do you feel these men have lost the right to due process though?  Should we feel angry on their behalf, at the media intrusion and demonization they have already suffered?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on November 07, 2018, 11:12:53 AM
Do you feel these men have lost the right to due process though?  Should we feel angry on their behalf, at the media intrusion and demonization they have already suffered?

I think you are missing the important thing here.  These men were arrested by the police. Brenda Leyland had committed no crime, she was never arrested nor likely to be it would seem from the police response regarding her.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 11:35:32 AM
I think you are missing the important thing here.  These men were arrested by the police. Brenda Leyland had committed no crime, she was never arrested nor likely to be it would seem from the police response regarding her.
Then these men are more likely to suffer the loss of due process than Brenda ever was.  How did the police find out about their alleged crimes anyway?  NB: these men have been released without charges brought so far, so...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 11:43:04 AM
Do you feel these men have lost the right to due process though?  Should we feel angry on their behalf, at the media intrusion and demonization they have already suffered?

I believe one of these men posted the video on social media themselves so, technically, they denied themselves due process.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 11:43:48 AM
The chances are the victims of Grenfell’s time is more occupied dealing with the effects of the tragedy than getting distressed about some lowlifes and their appalling behaviour.

Rukayet Mamadu, a survivor of the fire, called the video the "climax of intolerance of the system and society".

She told the Victoria Derbyshire programme: "It's chilling, it's cold-blooded. I feel so bad, let alone people who lost relatives.

"This should be brought to justice."
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 12:15:55 PM
Rukayet Mamadu, a survivor of the fire, called the video the "climax of intolerance of the system and society".

She told the Victoria Derbyshire programme: "It's chilling, it's cold-blooded. I feel so bad, let alone people who lost relatives.

"This should be brought to justice."

If they have broken the law, I absolutely agree. It doesn’t, however, negate my previous point.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 01:07:14 PM
I believe one of these men posted the video on social media themselves so, technically, they denied themselves due process.
If the crime is the posting of the video in the first place then how is that also denying themselves due process?  That’s ridiculous.  What about the other men involved?  Also, Brenda posted her opinions and bullying on social media herself didn’t she?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 01:07:30 PM
If they have broken the law, I absolutely agree. It doesn’t, however, negate my previous point.
What point was that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
If the crime is the posting of the video in the first place then how is that also denying themselves due process?  That’s ridiculous.  What about the other men involved?  Also, Brenda posted her opinions and bullying on social media herself didn’t she?

Did Brenda identify herself ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 07, 2018, 02:52:39 PM
Followers of Sky News will have noticed recently that Martin Brunt no longer does expose type reports as these are now being done by Mark White.  Let's hope he doesn't make the same errors.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 03:06:12 PM
Did Brenda identify herself ?
Did these men? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 03:50:08 PM
Did these men?

Well I believe one of the men posted the video to their own private Facebook account so that would be a yes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 07, 2018, 04:43:10 PM
 Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?

Yes!
Can anyone give a rational explanation why they feel some should be precluded from basic English law?
I thought not.
The end.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 07, 2018, 04:59:29 PM
Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?

Yes!
Can anyone give a rational explanation why they feel some should be precluded from basic English law?
I thought not.
The end.
Has anything been done about it?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 07, 2018, 05:08:09 PM
Has anything been done about it?

About what?
Do you mean changing the law to suit the personal prejudices of internet jockeys ?
Give me a rational explanation for why anyone should be denied the basic English right of equality at law?
When considering your response forget the McCann case as it does not transcend the law no matter what supporters may like to think.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 05:38:18 PM
Well I believe one of the men posted the video to their own private Facebook account so that would be a yes.
OK, that accounts for one of them then, in your view, so what about the other 4 or is it 5, are you concerned that they are being denied due process?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2018, 05:48:54 PM
About what?
Do you mean changing the law to suit the personal prejudices of internet jockeys ?
Give me a rational explanation for why anyone should be denied the basic English right of equality at law?
When considering your response forget the McCann case as it does not transcend the law no matter what supporters may like to think.

Brenda deserved and was afforded due process...I haven't heard any supporter suggesting the McCann case should transcend the law... That appears to be the domain of the supporters
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 05:51:14 PM
OK, that accounts for one of them then, in your view, so what about the other 4 or is it 5, are you concerned that they are being denied due process?

Do I think that they should have been identified, no. If they have broken the law the prosecute them. What do we gain by them being identified ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 07, 2018, 05:52:56 PM
Brenda deserved and was afforded due process...I haven't heard any supporter suggesting the McCann case should transcend the law... That appears to be the domain of the supporters

Please describe how Brenda was afforded due process ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 06:46:27 PM
Do I think that they should have been identified, no. If they have broken the law the prosecute them. What do we gain by them being identified ?
What if they haven’t broken the law?  Does society (includng the media) not have the right to name and shame people who behave in a morally repugnant way, sending out the message that such behaviour whilst not technically illegal, is still not acceptable?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 06:49:54 PM
Please describe how Brenda was afforded due process ?
Please tell us what you understand by the term “due process”.  My understanding is that it relates to the judicial system, so in what way was Brenda denied due process and what would have been the ramifications of this denial of due process on Brenda had she lived, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 07, 2018, 07:34:33 PM
What if they haven’t broken the law?  Does society (includng the media) not have the right to name and shame people who behave in a morally repugnant way, sending out the message that such behaviour whilst not technically illegal, is still not acceptable?

Who in your opinion should be the arbiter of "morally repugnant" ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 07, 2018, 07:36:17 PM
Brenda deserved and was afforded due process...I haven't heard any supporter suggesting the McCann case should transcend the law... That appears to be the domain of the supporters

Thanks for agreeing with me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 07, 2018, 07:42:22 PM
Thanks for agreeing with me.

I hope Ive brought a little happiness into your life
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 07:47:38 PM
Who in your opinion should be the arbiter of "morally repugnant" ?
Me.  8)--))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2018, 07:55:18 PM
Me.  8)--))

#MeToo.

If that's okay with you.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 08:05:21 PM
#MeToo.

If that's okay with you.
Sure, let’s be joint arbiters, we’re both well qualified  8(0(*
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on November 07, 2018, 08:07:36 PM
Sure, let’s be joint arbiters, we’re both well qualified  8(0(*

You could well both have been, back in 2014.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2018, 08:24:35 PM
Sure, let’s be joint arbiters, we’re both well qualified  8(0(*

So True.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 08:27:47 PM
You could well both have been, back in 2014.
???
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 07, 2018, 09:05:42 PM
Me.  8)--))

Fine by me as long as you accept the consequences without fear or favor.

Ditto to Eleanor.

But don't come running to me yelling foul when someone elses might is mightier than thine and that person has no conscience.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 07, 2018, 09:35:22 PM
Fine by me as long as you accept the consequences without fear or favor.

Ditto to Eleanor.

But don't come running to me yelling foul when someone elses might is mightier than thine and that person has no conscience.

Oooh Er.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: sadie on November 07, 2018, 11:11:24 PM
Fine by me as long as you accept the consequences without fear or favor.

Ditto to Eleanor.

But don't come running to me yelling foul when someone elses might is mightier than thine and that person has no conscience.

Is that a threat ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 07, 2018, 11:13:48 PM
Fine by me as long as you accept the consequences without fear or favor.

Ditto to Eleanor.

But don't come running to me yelling foul when someone elses might is mightier than thine and that person has no conscience.
As if I’d ever come running to you ever, for anything!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: misty on November 07, 2018, 11:27:06 PM
You could well both have been, back in 2014.

Both do extremely well in 2018, given the constant goading they receive - wouldn't you agree?  8)--))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Sunny on November 08, 2018, 07:01:05 AM
Both do extremely well in 2018, given the constant goading they receive - wouldn't you agree?  8)--))

Arbiter

Definition of arbiter. 1 : a person with power to decide a dispute : judge The mayor will act as the final arbiter in any dispute between board members.9 Oct 2018
Arbiter | Definition of Arbiter by Merriam-Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbiter


Now explain please Vertigo Swirls power of arbitration on this forum.  I am sure you know what I was actually referring to.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 07:31:19 AM
Arbiter

Definition of arbiter. 1 : a person with power to decide a dispute : judge The mayor will act as the final arbiter in any dispute between board members.9 Oct 2018
Arbiter | Definition of Arbiter by Merriam-Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbiter


Now explain please Vertigo Swirls power of arbitration on this forum.  I am sure you know what I was actually referring to.
@)(++(* oh dear, were you by any chance accusing us of somehow being complicit in Brenda’s death? 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 07:50:28 AM
Although it's not a phrase I would use there are some things which arouse 'moral outrage' in everyone. The myrder of an innocent child, for example.

At the other end of the scale are things which arouse 'moral outrage' only in some people. Monty Python's Life of Brian, for example.

So some things outrage everyone and there are usually laws prohibiting these things. The things which don't outrage everyone are not against the law. It;s a natter of opinion and no-one's opinion can be allowed to dominate.

One man's meat is another man's poison, as they say. 




Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2018, 07:56:40 AM
Although it's not a phrase I would use there are some things which arouse 'moral outrage' in everyone. The myrder of an innocent child, for example.

At the other end of the scale are things which arouse 'moral outrage' only in some people. Monty Python's Life of Brian, for example.

So some things outrage everyone and there are usually laws prohibiting these things. The things which don't outrage everyone are not against the law. It;s a natter of opinion and no-one's opinion can be allowed to dominate.

One man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.

Not an IMO in sight.... Contrary to what you think there are things that outrage some which are against the law
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 08:24:07 AM
Although it's not a phrase I would use there are some things which arouse 'moral outrage' in everyone. The myrder of an innocent child, for example.

At the other end of the scale are things which arouse 'moral outrage' only in some people. Monty Python's Life of Brian, for example.

So some things outrage everyone and there are usually laws prohibiting these things. The things which don't outrage everyone are not against the law. It;s a natter of opinion and no-one's opinion can be allowed to dominate.

One man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.
Setting all personalities aside, writing spiteful, bitchy, accusatory, judgemental, untrue things publicly on line about alleged victims of crime and their immediate families tends not to be “meat” to most people.  IMO, most people view such behaviour as poison. 
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2018, 08:43:06 AM
As if I’d ever come running to you ever, for anything!

I think Alice was joking, Vee.  He's really good at obscure jokes.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 08:45:09 AM
I think Alice was joking, Vee.  He's really good at obscure jokes.
Arggh, don’t call me Vee, they’ll think I’m that ghastly paedo!!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2018, 08:49:45 AM
Arggh, don’t call me Vee, they’ll think I’m that ghastly paedo!!

So much for my Perceptions.

PS.  Which ghastly Paedo?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 08, 2018, 09:02:14 AM
Arggh, don’t call me Vee, they’ll think I’m that ghastly paedo!!

Why would we think that?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Robittybob1 on November 08, 2018, 10:01:59 AM
So much for my Perceptions.

PS.  Which ghastly Paedo?
Vee8
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 10:22:36 AM
Setting all personalities aside, writing spiteful, bitchy, accusatory, judgemental, untrue things publicly on line about the IMO victims of crime and their immediate families tends not to be “meat” to most people.  IMO, most people view such behaviour as poison.

The problem arises when one person sees something as spiteful, bitchy, accusatory, judgemental or untrue and another person doesn't. It's just competing opinions.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 10:26:45 AM
Arggh, don’t call me Vee, they’ll think I’m that ghastly paedo!!

Was he always ghastly or only after he was exposed? I read some of his stuff and it was definitely  spiteful, bitchy, accusatory, judgemental or untrue in my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2018, 10:46:19 AM
Vee8

Thank You, Rob.  Very silly of me.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 11:02:58 AM
What if they haven’t broken the law?  Does society (includng the media) not have the right to name and shame people who behave in a morally repugnant way, sending out the message that such behaviour whilst not technically illegal, is still not acceptable?

No.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 11:09:12 AM
Please tell us what you understand by the term “due process”.  My understanding is that it relates to the judicial system, so in what way was Brenda denied due process and what would have been the ramifications of this denial of due process on Brenda had she lived, in your opinion?

The dossier was handed to the Met. If they had found criminal behaviour by Brenda she would have been arrested, charged and tried. That is due process. Brenda was denied this basic right under English law and anyone who condones this has no respect for the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 11:13:53 AM
The dossier was handed to the Met. If they had found criminal behaviour by Brenda she would have been arrested, charged and tried. That is due process. Brenda was denied this basic right under English law and anyone who condones this has no respect for the law.


Due you believe the McCanns have been given this basic rightl by Amaral?
Or indeed by Brenda herself?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 11:17:27 AM

Due you believe the McCanns have been given this basic rightl by Amaral?

I’m sorry is it okay for Brenda to be denied due process just because you feel the McCanns weren’t ? Is that the maturity of your reasoning?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 11:21:27 AM
I’m sorry is it okay for Brenda to be denied due process just because you feel the McCanns weren’t ? Is that the maturity of your reasoning?

Your usual insults flow.
You seem to have no problem at all with the McCanns not being given due process of law by both Amaral and Brenda which occurred before Brenda's lack off due process in your opinion.
Rather hypocritical in my opinion.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Your usual insults flow.
You seem to have no problem at all with the McCanns not being given due process of law by both Amaral and Brenda which occurred before Brenda's lack off due process in your opinion.
Rather hypocritical in my opinion.

Amaral followed due process meticulously in his dealings with the McCanns in my opinion. How did he deny them that in your opinion?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 11:52:12 AM
Amaral followed due process meticulously in his dealings with the McCanns in my opinion. How did he deny them that in your opinion?

Which due processes did he " meticulously" follow before he wrote his book and made many TV appearances ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Your usual insults flow.
You seem to have no problem at all with the McCanns not being given due process of law by both Amaral and Brenda which occurred before Brenda's lack off due process in your opinion.
Rather hypocritical in my opinion.

Please don’t tell me what I think.

Tell me Erngath do you think one set of people not being afforded due process excuses another not being afforded those same rights ?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 12:03:38 PM
Which due processes did he " meticulously" follow before he wrote his book and made many TV appearances ?

As you would expect from a man with a law degree he made sure he expressed his opinion without breaking any laws.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 12:06:43 PM
Please don’t tell me what I think.

Tell me Erngath do you think one set of people not being afforded due process excuses another not being afforded those same rights ?

Mother to child; 'Why did you take x's toy? Reply 'x took y's toy'
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 12:35:24 PM
Please don’t tell me what I think.

Tell me Erngath do you think one set of people not being afforded due process excuses another not being afforded those same rights ?

You were never concerned with due process for the McCanns before your constant bleating about Brenda not having had  the same consideration
The lack of due process was not afforded to the McCanns by Amaral and Brenda  and you have never shown any concern about that!
Such utter hypocrisy!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2018, 12:35:29 PM
As you would expect from a man with a law degree he made sure he expressed his opinion without breaking any laws.

He also managed to get a criminal conviction.. And it is not yet decided if his book is libellous or not
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 12:39:29 PM
As you would expect from a man with a law degree he made sure he expressed his opinion without breaking any laws.

So he didn't wait until due process had been completed before he penned his accusatory book and made his television appearances repeating those accusations.
He played judge and jury and certainly didn't allow the McCanns the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 12:53:09 PM
He also managed to get a criminal conviction.. And it is not yet decided if his book is libellous or not

I don't see the relevance of his conviction and the McCanns failed to prove he libelled them.

Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 01:09:16 PM
I don't see the relevance of his conviction and the McCanns failed to prove he libelled them.

He certainly didn't meticulously follow the law and/or due process and earned himself a conviction for perjury.
For a man with a law degree he showed contempt for the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 01:13:07 PM
Mother to child; 'Why did you take x's toy? Reply 'x took y's toy'

Lol.
I was never very good at Algebra. 8)--))
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Brietta on November 08, 2018, 01:30:59 PM
Due process is the legal requirement that the government must respect all legal rights that are owed to a person.[1] Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this is a due process violation, which offends the rule of law.
____________________________________________________________________

Due process is not used in contemporary English law. But it recognizes two similar concepts are natural justice and the British constitutional concept of the rule of law. However, neither concept lines up perfectly with the American theory of due process. It contains many implied rights not found in the ancient or modern concepts of due process in England.[4]
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process


Exactly what is it that a few people think Ms Leyland was deprived of?  Was it protection from the law of the land?
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2018, 01:51:05 PM
I don't see the relevance of his conviction and the McCanns failed to prove he libelled them.

It's relevant to your post and his law, degree which infers knowledge of the law
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
No.
Why not?  You clearly don’t believe in the freedom of the press or in free speech then. iMO
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 03:15:18 PM
The dossier was handed to the Met. If they had found criminal behaviour by Brenda she would have been arrested, charged and tried. That is due process. Brenda was denied this basic right under English law and anyone who condones this has no respect for the law.
nothing was stopping any of those things from happening, only Brenda herself by ending her life.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: G-Unit on November 08, 2018, 05:20:23 PM
It's relevant to your post and his law, degree which infers knowledge of the law

Many people who break it understand the law.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2018, 05:21:26 PM

Due you believe the McCanns have been given this basic rightl by Amaral?
Or indeed by Brenda herself?

You seem to want support brendas right ti free speech but sppress the right of the press to free speech... IMO... Brenda deserved to be named and shamed
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 08, 2018, 05:22:43 PM
Many people who break it understand the law.
I'm not sure amaral understands the laws of libel.... We will see if the ECHR give him a lesson
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 05:27:45 PM
I'm not sure amaral understands the laws of libel.... We will see if the ECHR give him a lesson

It would appear only the parents and you are the slightest bit interested in the outcome.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2018, 05:31:53 PM
It would appear only the parents and you are the slightest bit interested in the outcome.

This is obviously not true.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 05:35:10 PM
This is obviously not true.

And you of course.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 06:02:11 PM
Such utter immaturity.

Lol.
How very predictable.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 06:02:57 PM
It would appear only the parents and you are the slightest bit interested in the outcome.

I think not.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: John on November 08, 2018, 06:11:03 PM
You were never concerned with due process for the McCanns before your constant bleating about Brenda not having had  the same consideration
The lack of due process was not afforded to the McCanns by Amaral and Brenda  and you have never shown any concern about that!
Such utter hypocrisy!

The McCanns were afforded due process right up to the arguido interviews but Kate McCann chose not to cooperate. A sad way to behave by any innocent mother whose priority should have been the return of her missing daughter.

Now can we rediscover the thread topic please.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: faithlilly on November 08, 2018, 06:12:23 PM
I think not.

Oh and you.

If the comments sections of media articles are anything to go by most of the public just want the parents to go away, quietly.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 06:13:00 PM
Many people who break it understand the law.

However to have a law degree and to break the law in what was a rather basic rule of law that is  lying and therefore committing perjury does seem rather naive.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 06:14:59 PM
Oh and you.

If the comments sections of media articles are anything to go by most of the public just want the parents to go away, quietly.

You really do believe that the comments on online media articles do reflect the total opinion of the UK public?
How quaint!
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Erngath on November 08, 2018, 06:25:45 PM
You don’t ?
Bless, how naive.

No, I don't believe for one moment that any comments on online media articles reflect the opinion of the UK public.
For example, when race hate incidents are recorded on online media articles, the comments are often in full support of those who have been involved and also said comments seem to be allowed and certainly not subjected to any form of censure.
I've read dreadfully racist and homophobic comments on the comments allowed on online media articles.
I really hope the comments I've read on various online media articles do not represent the views of the UK public.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Eleanor on November 08, 2018, 06:26:42 PM
However to have a law degree and to break the law in what was a rather basic rule of law that is  lying and therefore committing perjury does seem rather naive.

It seems rather criminal to me.
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 06:27:57 PM
It would appear only the parents and you are the slightest bit interested in the outcome.
Someone on here keeps on asking if anything has been heard yet re: the ECHR ruling, they ask the question quite regularly.  I can’t remember who it is but I know it’s not Davel or one of the McCanns...
Title: Re: Did Brenda Leyland Have the Right to Due Process ?
Post by: Venturi Swirl on November 08, 2018, 06:28:49 PM
Oh and you.

If the comments sections of media articles are anything to go by most of the public just want the parents to go away, quietly.
But that’s not what you want is it?