What constitutes 'Fresh Evidence' for an appeal?

[Nicholas]

You say the blood was most probably from SC but why wasn't it tested?  Or if it was tested why does noone seem to know the results?  All other blood stained exhibits were examined and results produced as per Dr Lincoln's letter.

I think you know the answers to your questions but trying to prove your point and not be wrong, is more important to you than holding your hands up and admitting defeat.

Posters are reminded to stay on topic.  Thanks.

And this proves my point!

[Holly Goodhead]

I think you know the answers to your questions but trying to prove your point and not be wrong, is more important to you than holding your hands up and admitting defeat.

And this proves my point!

I'm asking you and others to provide scenarios for the bible based on known facts ie forensics and pathology.  You say I've been told over and over.  I've asked you to link me to the posts.

[Caroline]

Well you didn't tell me personally but you did post to this effect when David announced his so-called FEB.  You identified what you thought was a palm print back in 2013.  I'm not even sure I can see a palm print.  To my eyes it just looks like a splodge.  To my mind it's akin to looking at clouds and different people come up with different ideas about what they can see ie visual perception. 

When/where did JB first say he thought it was a palm print?  What if anything are you alluding to? 

I go on the surrounding evidence and to my mind it all points to June not SC:

June

- June was religious to the point the CoA described her interest as obsessive
- June attended weekly bible classes and the evidence suggests she had a good understanding of the contents of the bible
- The bible belonged to June and was kept in/on her bedside cabinet
- A fingerprint examination of the bible revealed the only identifiable prints belonging to June
- June sustained a gsw to her right arm (carrying arm if right handed)
- Pathologist said June's hands were bloodstained
- Bible was found in an area where June had been post gsw's evidenced by her blood trail on carpet and socks

SC

- No evidence SC was particularly religious and/or made a habit of reading/referring to bible.  If she was why not take her own bible to WHF? 
- None of SC's fingerprints identified on bible
- According to EP and pathologist SC's palms were uncontaminated with blood

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All bloodstained exhibits were collected, documented and sent to FSS for testing.  The bible was given the exhibit number DRH/44 however no one seems to know whose blood stained the pages.  The bible has since been destroyed against protocol. 

The bible featured in JM's testimony whereby she stated MM placed on SC's chest. 

If nothing else IMO it shows how negligent the trial and appeal lawyers were in not chasing down the blood stain test results.

I think all the evidence points to June reaching for her bible in her hour of need and walking around the bed with it dropping it as she started losing consciousness.

I didn't mean I just told you personally, I told everyone - I worked it out. I would have to check when he first mentioned it but it was in response to me telling him that the stain couldn't have come from the floor/carpet because it's on the wrong page. I don't think either Sheila or June picked up the bible, I think Jeremy simply thought it would add something to the staging and it worked.

[Caroline]

I'm asking you and others to provide scenarios for the bible based on known facts ie forensics and pathology.  You say I've been told over and over.  I've asked you to link me to the posts.

I have mentioned many times that Jeremy used it for staging purposes. I think that he initially placed it on her body, palm on the bile and fingers on the night dress, it would explain both stains. I think he probably thought it looked too staged or it just didn't fit with the rifle being there also so he discarded it to the floor.

[adam]

I have mentioned many times that Jeremy used it for staging purposes. I think that he initially placed it on her body, palm on the bile and fingers on the night dress, it would explain both stains. I think he probably thought it looked too staged or it just didn't fit with the rifle being there also so he discarded it to the floor.

Julie's WS does say -

'Sheila had lay down on the bed and shot herself under the orders of Mathew who then put a bible on her chest.'

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Julie's WS is correct if the bible was intially put on Sheila's chest.

Bamber then took the bible off Sheila's chest, correctly realising it looked too implausible in that location. He just didn't bother telling Julie he later did this. 

Bamber doing this is a simple explanation to explain two pieces of forensic evidence on the bible & nightdress.

[Caroline]

I have mentioned many times that Jeremy used it for staging purposes. I think that he initially placed it on her body, palm on the bible and fingers on the nightdress, it would explain both stains. I think he probably thought it looked too staged or it just didn't fit with the rifle being there also so he discarded it to the floor.

[Holly Goodhead]

I didn't mean I just told you personally, I told everyone - I worked it out. I would have to check when he first mentioned it but it was in response to me telling him that the stain couldn't have come from the floor/carpet because it's on the wrong page. I don't think either Sheila or June picked up the bible, I think Jeremy simply thought it would add something to the staging and it worked.

It wasn't part of the prosecution case against JB at trial other than JM's claims MM placed on SC's chest.  But there was no expert evidence choreographing the bible into soc.  If anything the defence seemed to use it against SC with Prof Knight offering up past examples of suicides involving bibles.

[Holly Goodhead]

I have mentioned many times that Jeremy used it for staging purposes. I think that he initially placed it on her body, palm on the bile and fingers on the night dress, it would explain both stains. I think he probably thought it looked too staged or it just didn't fit with the rifle being there also so he discarded it to the floor.

As I've said previously I can't see a palm print or any discernible image.

The expert evidence at trial from Dr Vanezis (and police officers) was that SC's hands were free from bloodstains.  Assuming this is correct are you suggesting JB placed SC's hand in blood from her gsw's and then transferred her palm to the bible and fingerprints to her nightdress?  If so this would not remove all traces of blood unless he wiped clean her hand?   

There's no reliable soc image for SC's found position, rifle and bible. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Just thought I guess SC could have put her hand on her 1st gsw but this doesn't account for the fact expert evidence at trial said her hands/fingers were uncontaminated with blood other than blood on her wrist.

[david1819]

As I've said previously I can't see a palm print or any discernible image.

That's because you have the visual perception ability of a coconut.

"Visual perception refers to the brain's ability to make sense of what the eyes see. This is not the same as visual acuity which refers to how clearly a person sees (for example “20/20 vision”). A person can have 20/20 vision and still have problems with visual perceptual processing"

Anyway I have made requests in the last few days to admin to have my account here removed. For some reason its still here. Why?

[Caroline]

Just thought I guess SC could have put her hand on her 1st gsw but this doesn't account for the fact expert evidence at trial said her hands/fingers were uncontaminated with blood other than blood on her wrist.

Although it's not what Venezis stated in his written notes.

[Nicholas]

As I've said previously I can't see a palm print or any discernible image.

The expert evidence at trial from Dr Vanezis (and police officers) was that SC's hands were free from bloodstains.  Assuming this is correct are you suggesting JB placed SC's hand in blood from her gsw's and then transferred her palm to the bible and fingerprints to her nightdress?  If so this would not remove all traces of blood unless he wiped clean her hand?   

There's no reliable soc image for SC's found position, rifle and bible.

What does Jeremy Bamber say about the bible?

[adam]

You received a letter from JB and posted it up on Blue.  JB asked you to send your so-called forensic evidence breakthrough (feb) to his lawyers. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7566.msg397617.html#msg397617

When we met you claimed you dropped your feb off at MT QC's chambers and by chance you met him outside on a cigarette break.  According to you the pair of you struck up a conversation which then extended to exchanging emails until MT QC stopped responding. 

Your claims of a chance meeting with MT QC sound remarkably reminiscent of PH claiming he had a chance meeting with the late Ed Lawson QC.

I don't care how much money has been thrown at it or who's involved I maintain:

- There's nothing remotely forensic about it
- It contains nothing of evidential value
- It wouldn't break through a paper bag

I said as much when we met face to face.  After our meeting you emailed me further info and I can't recall exactly what I said without checking back, which I can't be bothered to do, but I said something to appease you just to keep you quiet. 

You even told me you had tracked down Geoffrey Rivlin at his home address and asked my opinion as to whether you should drop off your feb to him at his home address.  I advised against.  It was at this point I was glad our meeting was at a busy public place. 

So now I'm not just "catty", "nasty" and "horrible" towards MT QC but I also have "an uncooperative attitude" towards you/feb and my "scornful grumblings" are totally uncalled for. 

David in case it has escaped your attention Blue and Red are debating forums.  The fact we both share the same view that JB is innocent is about where the similarities end.  I don't share your views on your feb and most other aspects of the case.  In fact I don't share the views held by many 'supporters' incl posters on Blue, CT, Andrew Hunter, Eric Allison and MT QC.  I don't even share the same views as JB.  No doubt they don't share my views.  Who cares?  The only people capable of changing JB's fate are 3 appeal court judges.  Maybe they will be blown away by your feb so why worry yourself what I think? 

 

It strange that David keeps contacting other men. Bamber, Hunter, MT, NGB, and even finding Rivlin's address. While has contempt for female posters, including Lookout when a guilter.

To be fair his 'Forensic Evidence Breakthrough' created an impact for three reasons -

He called it 'Forensic Evidence Breakthrough'.

He asked NGB to write a post on it.

He refused to say what it was.

[Holly Goodhead]

That's because you have the visual perception ability of a coconut.

"Visual perception refers to the brain's ability to make sense of what the eyes see. This is not the same as visual acuity which refers to how clearly a person sees (for example “20/20 vision”). A person can have 20/20 vision and still have problems with visual perceptual processing"

Or maybe you have an over active imagination.  If it's as obvious as you and others claim and it can assist JB why haven't the defence picked up on it?  I look at the surrounding facts and they don't support your claims.

Anyway I have made requests in the last few days to admin to have my account here removed. For some reason its still here. Why?

I'm not Admin.  I don't know what timescales they work to.

[Holly Goodhead]

What does Jeremy Bamber say about the bible?

I've never discussed it with him.