Exploring the reasons and motivation behind Portuguese re-opening of the case.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Or maybe something that was already there assumed a new importance during the review?

Could be - but it was there one way or the other.

New thread has been created on this topic and last few posts on this discussion will be moved over.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Difficult to say.  First of all I believe The PJ saw a reason for why the handling of the original investigation needed looking into.  And then in the process of doing that they found things that were neglected and needed a closer look at.
What will have followed is obvious.

I agree with you, Eleanor, though I'd like to look into the matter of exactly why they decided to re-open things when they did.

Their 2011 review began just before that of SY - officially at least.

The way we often look at the investigation in Britain is that SY, in motivational terms, are the ones driving the investigation. They are appealing to Portuguese authorities for green lights in carrying out certain diligences, and have a team of officers acting on their 'behalf' in Faro (not sure what that means exactly; perhaps someone can confirm).

But if the early groundwork for a new investigation was actually laid down in Portugal, what does that tell us about the relationship between UK and Portuguese authorities in this case? Are SY really pushing the PJ and others to do things, or is that motivation coming from within?

[stephen25000]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/madeleine-mccann-detectives-send-third-letter-of-request-to-portuguese-authorities.1392306410?http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-missing-british-police-3142582?''Deputy 

Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt said that so far no requests to carry out interviews or arrests had been made.

He said: "We sent a further detailed letter of request which went out from the CPS on Friday.

"This is part of an ongoing process.''

[Eleanor]

The credibility of The PJ took a serious knocking over this case, so I think they had to look into it, unmotivated by anyone on the outside.  Look into procedures I mean.
We just don't know what they found once they started delving.  Quite possibly they found new evidence which warranted a reopening.
I think that Scotland Yard are simply following legal steps towards assisting.  And they will also have good knowledge of the case by now.

[stephen25000]

The credibility of The PJ took a serious knocking over this case, so I think they had to look into it, unmotivated by anyone on the outside.  Look into procedures I mean.
We just don't know what they found once they started delving.  Quite possibly they found new evidence which warranted a reopening.
I think that Scotland Yard are simply following legal steps towards assisting.  And they will also have good knowledge of the case by now.

Of course they are.

[Sherlock Holmes]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/madeleine-mccann-detectives-send-third-letter-of-request-to-portuguese-authorities.1392306410?http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-missing-british-police-3142582?''Deputy 

Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt said that so far no requests to carry out interviews or arrests had been made.

He said: "We sent a further detailed letter of request which went out from the CPS on Friday.

"This is part of an ongoing process.''

Yes, thanks for that Stephen.

Also says at the foot of the article: ' Portuguese authorities said last October that a review had uncovered enough new information to justify reopening it.'


This strongly suggests they have their own leads and ideas and are not just assisting SY.

Doesn't it suggest that there could be real material out there? If two forces working independently (as well as together) see fit to reopen the investigation and spend monies during economically hard times?

We can say that the McCanns managed to pressure David Cameron and others.

But the McCanns were not pressuring anyone in Portugal.

[EnolaStraight]

I found it incredible that the case was closed at all. In the UK any missing person or murder case remains open and assigned to some responsible person until solved or cleared up. There is no way to close such serious cases so quickly as it seems possible in Portugal.

[EnolaStraight]

Before anyone gainsays my claim that serious cases are not closed:

http://www.essex.police.uk/news_features/features_archive/2013/january/cold_case_investigation_team.aspx

"No unsolved murder or rape case is ever closed by Essex Police."

[Lyall]

I found it incredible that the case was closed at all. In the UK any missing person or murder case remains open and assigned to some responsible person until solved or cleared up. There is no way to close such serious cases so quickly as it seems possible in Portugal.

It is an incredible case, and witnesses weren't cooperating. Where could the investigation possibly go?

You say in the UK cases aren't closed, but in unsolved high-profile ones there is often pressure to bring a prosecution somehow, against someone, and we know what that can lead to.

I think the Portuguese had the better solution, but clearly no justice system is perfect in any country.

[EnolaStraight]

It is an incredible case, and witnesses weren't cooperating. Where could the investigation possibly go?

You say in the UK cases aren't closed, but in unsolved high-profile ones there is often pressure to bring a prosecution somehow, against someone, and we know what that can lead to.

I think the Portuguese had the better solution, but clearly no justice system is perfect in any country.

Frequently witnesses and suspects do not cooperate. There are legal rules that allow this. Despite that, all serious cases in the UK (with or without witness cooperation) are kept live, at least nominally.

I cannot believe that the Portuguese system is better where their interviewing recording is still police written statements rather than proper contemporaneous recordings, and where their interviewing process is so old fashioned- still based on gaining a confession rather than evidence gathering and cognitive interviews.

I have been quite surprised about just where the Portuguese system stands currently compared with countries that use more modern and academically backed methods.

[Eleanor]

The PJ and Scotland Yard seem to be finding all sorts lately, and all things that were already there to be found back in 2007 and 2008,  So obviously the case should not have been shelved.

[Lyall]

Frequently witnesses and suspects do not cooperate. There are legal rules that allow this. Despite that, all serious cases in the UK (with or without witness cooperation) are kept live, at least nominally.

I cannot believe that the Portuguese system is better where their interviewing recording is still police written statements rather than proper contemporaneous recordings, and where their interviewing process is so old fashioned- still based on gaining a confession rather than evidence gathering and cognitive interviews.

I have been quite surprised about just where the Portuguese system stands currently compared with countries that use more modern and academically backed methods.

Madeleine disappeared in 2007 and you don't have to go too far further in the past to see serious organisational and investigative mistakes being made by British police. The Soham case was in 2002, and that's just one example.

British police do have better PR though, that is definitely true (and a media that rarely asks many questions). The reality that lies behind the PR though isn't as brilliant as you're making out.

[Lyall]

The PJ and Scotland Yard seem to be finding all sorts lately, and all things that were already there to be found back in 2007 and 2008,  So obviously the case should not have been shelved.

No what you have are journalists claiming they have found all sorts lately: the police themselves haven't said this.

[Estuarine]

When I started out doing what I do I used seven figure log tables and a slide rule. We then had mains powered calculators wheeled around on a trolley, followed by mains powered desk calculators followed by battery powered desk calculators, main frame computers and finally desk top and lap top PC's. None of them allowed me to my job better than I did with the log tables and slide rule. I could do it quicker and retrieve data faster but as for doing it better NO. If you don't know what you are looking at no amount of whizzy gadgets will help you.

[Eleanor]

No what you have are journalists claiming they have found all sorts lately: the police themselves haven't said this.

You can kid yourself all you like but it is still obvious that the original investigation was a complete cock up.  Even The PJ think this.  Why bother having Reviews if there was nothing to find?