Author Topic: Was the twins' future up for discussion?  (Read 27405 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« on: April 28, 2020, 10:24:21 PM »
SC and CC divorced in May 1982 and according to CC had joint custody of the twins.  I've no idea if this was a formal arrangement through the courts or informal between themselves.

Up until SC's second breakdown on 2nd March 1985, which required in-patient psychiatric care, SC was main carer to the twins. 

During SC's hospitalisation the twins went to live with CC.  CC claims he became aware through his mother and the twin's teacher and headmistress that SC was unable to meet the twin's basic needs.  CC set out his concerns in a letter to NB also seeking his support in "trying to convince" SC it would be best it the twins stayed with him most of the time and SC could see them whenever she wished.  The letter was never sent.

CC managed to speak with SC's psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, and was told SC was psychotic and had schizophrenia which she would always have and at more frequent intervals.

SC was discharged from hospital on 29th March 1985.  CC remained main carer to the twins up until 7th August.  He saw SC a few times with the twins and during the last  couple of weeks leading up to 7th August SC made clear she wanted the twins and CC back.

CC's mother saw SC at her flat in the middle of June.  SC broke down in her arms crying, the first time she had ever seen Sheila show any emotion.  SC was very upset and miserable about her life and wanted her children to live with her again.

CC's mother had a tel conversation with June after SC's discharge where June conveyed her concerns that because of SC's illness the twins might be placed in foster homes.

It seems to me that various conversations were taking place about the twin's future.

After SC's first breakdown the twins went back to live with SC but this didn't happen after the second breakdown. What did SC think was going to happen short, medium and long term? 

Did CC make clear to SC he intended to become full-time carer to the twins?

What did CC's mother say when SC became upset?

What did June and NB say when SC went to stay at WHF? If June was unhappy with SC and JB having sex outside of marriage I'm sure she would not have wanted her grandchildren living with their unemployed father and his girlfriend in a council flat.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 10:25:48 PM »
SC and CC divorced in May 1982 and according to CC had joint custody of the twins.  I've no idea if this was a formal arrangement through the courts or informal between themselves.

Up until SC's second breakdown on 2nd March 1985, which required in-patient psychiatric care, SC was main carer to the twins. 

During SC's hospitalisation the twins went to live with CC.  CC claims he became aware through his mother and the twin's teacher and headmistress that SC was unable to meet the twin's basic needs.  CC set out his concerns in a letter to NB also seeking his support in "trying to convince" SC it would be best it the twins stayed with him most of the time and SC could see them whenever she wished.  The letter was never sent.

CC managed to speak with SC's psychiatrist, Dr Ferguson, and was told SC was psychotic and had schizophrenia which she would always have and at more frequent intervals.

SC was discharged from hospital on 29th March 1985.  CC remained main carer to the twins up until 7th August.  He saw SC a few times with the twins and during the last  couple of weeks leading up to 7th August SC made clear she wanted the twins and CC back.

CC's mother saw SC at her flat in the middle of June.  SC broke down in her arms crying, the first time she had ever seen Sheila show any emotion.  SC was very upset and miserable about her life and wanted her children to live with her again.

CC's mother had a tel conversation with June after SC's discharge where June conveyed her concerns that because of SC's illness the twins might be placed in foster homes.

It seems to me that various conversations were taking place about the twin's future.

After SC's first breakdown the twins went back to live with SC but this didn't happen after the second breakdown. What did SC think was going to happen short, medium and long term? 

Did CC make clear to SC he intended to become full-time carer to the twins?

What did CC's mother say when SC became upset?

What did June and NB say when SC went to stay at WHF? If June was unhappy with SC and JB having sex outside of marriage I'm sure she would not have wanted her grandchildren living with their unemployed father and his girlfriend in a council flat.

Stuff we can't know.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 10:59:44 PM »
That was Sheila and Colin’s Business.

By the way, Dr Ferguson never said her condition would worsen — wherever did you read that?

I read that Dr Ferguson said Sheila had MILD schizophrenia and it could be treated with medication. He also said Sheila was not a danger to herself OR her sons, and he was more than happy for her to have regular unsupervised access to the boys, including having them at weekends etc. So your version is exaggerated.

But whatever the situation, it wasn’t up to June or Nevill how the boys were to be brought up. And Colin had custody too, so he’d never have allowed June to interfere.

Colin was a decent, warm loving young father and despite Jeremy killing his two beautiful boys, he’s forged a wonderful career for himself and is happily married living in a beautiful home with his wife and daughter. He’s done extremely well to come through such a tragedy and to make such a lovely life for himself — given what heartache Jeremy put him through.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline mrswah

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Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2020, 12:01:47 AM »
Stuff we can't know.


We can't, but it's rather important, since, according to Jeremy, Nevill, June and Sheila were having an argument on this very subject on the evening of the murders.

Some say there was no argument, and that Jeremy made it all up, in order to give a reason why Sheila might "go crazy with a gun." 

I can well imagine it happening though. I'm sure Colin had every intention of continuing to have the twins living with him, and I can also imagine June, at least, not being too happy about that.  Just my opinion though.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2020, 12:06:32 AM »

We can't, but it's rather important, since, according to Jeremy, Nevill, June and Sheila were having an argument on this very subject on the evening of the murders.

Some say there was no argument, and that Jeremy made it all up, in order to give a reason why Sheila might "go crazy with a gun." 

I can well imagine it happening though. I'm sure Colin had every intention of continuing to have the twins living with him, and I can also imagine June, at least, not being too happy about that.  Just my opinion though.


But Jeremy’s a pathological liar...and he would have made that up as a reason why Sheila might go mad.

He tripped himself up too — he said Sheila wasn’t saying a word. So how could they have been arguing?

It’s total rubbish.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Common sense

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 12:21:46 AM »

We can't, but it's rather important, since, according to Jeremy, Nevill, June and Sheila were having an argument on this very subject on the evening of the murders.

Some say there was no argument, and that Jeremy made it all up, in order to give a reason why Sheila might "go crazy with a gun." 

I can well imagine it happening though. I'm sure Colin had every intention of continuing to have the twins living with him, and I can also imagine June, at least, not being too happy about that.  Just my opinion though.

JB was always rather vague about the supposed "fostering conversation" - just as he was vague about what he spoke to Julie about at 3am and Nevill supposedly only managing to utter 7 words.

I don't think this is a coincidence!

Holly's post has set out the facts very well and it seems to me that far from SC seeing this probably fictitious conversation as a threat that the boys would be taken away or fostered, the conversation would have been about getting her help to see them more or perhaps have them live with her permanently again. It would have given her hope.

I've never understood why people think the threat of losing her boys would trigger her, she had already lost them to CCs care.

Offline mrswah

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Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 12:36:50 AM »
JB was always rather vague about the supposed "fostering conversation" - just as he was vague about what he spoke to Julie about at 3am and Nevill supposedly only managing to utter 7 words.

I don't think this is a coincidence!

Holly's post has set out the facts very well and it seems to me that far from SC seeing this probably fictitious conversation as a threat that the boys would be taken away or fostered, the conversation would have been about getting her help to see them more or perhaps have them live with her permanently again. It would have given her hope.

I've never understood why people think the threat of losing her boys would trigger her, she had already lost them to CCs care.

She hadn't lost them; she shared custody with Colin, and saw the twins regularly.

June and Nevill couldn't actually have done anything at all without Colin's permission, but they might have tried, or, might have hinted to Sheila that she wasn't a fit mother---it's perfectly possible that something like that could have tipped her over the edge.

Jeremy might have been a liar, but that doesn't necessarily mean he lied about everything.

Offline Common sense

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2020, 01:13:30 AM »
She hadn't lost them; she shared custody with Colin, and saw the twins regularly.

June and Nevill couldn't actually have done anything at all without Colin's permission, but they might have tried, or, might have hinted to Sheila that she wasn't a fit mother---it's perfectly possible that something like that could have tipped her over the edge.

Jeremy might have been a liar, but that doesn't necessarily mean he lied about everything.

If he did the murders then he lied about the phone call so it's reasonable to assume he lied about the supposed trigger for Sheila committing 4 murders without leaving a mark or speck of evidence on herself too.

JB said that he, SC, NB + JB were having the conversation and then when asked to elaborate claimed he wasn't really listening. As evidence, this is all just hearsay from JB and not very good hearsay at that.

CC effectively had sole custody from early March until 7th August which was the first time the boys had stayed with her since the breakdown ( as I recall ) so SC would have felt that she had lost the boys already, no matter how much she saw them, they no longer lived with her. J+N loved their grandchildren and would have wanted to help improve the situation.

Offline APRIL

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2020, 07:15:16 AM »
That was Sheila and Colin’s Business.

By the way, Dr Ferguson never said her condition would worsen — wherever did you read that?

I read that Dr Ferguson said Sheila had MILD schizophrenia and it could be treated with medication. He also said Sheila was not a danger to herself OR her sons, and he was more than happy for her to have regular unsupervised access to the boys, including having them at weekends etc. So your version is exaggerated.

But whatever the situation, it wasn’t up to June or Nevill how the boys were to be brought up. And Colin had custody too, so he’d never have allowed June to interfere.

Colin was a decent, warm loving young father and despite Jeremy killing his two beautiful boys, he’s forged a wonderful career for himself and is happily married living in a beautiful home with his wife and daughter. He’s done extremely well to come through such a tragedy and to make such a lovely life for himself — given what heartache Jeremy put him through.


The question is not IF Dr Ferguson told Colin her condition would worsen -unless Colin is lying, he did- but when. It seems to me that it would be a strange diagnosis/prognosis of an adequately medicated patient, but it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say of a newly admitted patient who has failed to take prescribed medication and not attended follow up appointments.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2020, 07:33:39 AM »

The question is not IF Dr Ferguson told Colin her condition would worsen -unless Colin is lying, he did- but when. It seems to me that it would be a strange diagnosis/prognosis of an adequately medicated patient, but it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say of a newly admitted patient who has failed to take prescribed medication and not attended follow up appointments.

Colin’s never lied about a thing: everything he’s said has been substantiated. Dr Ferguson never said Sheila would get “worse” — schizophrenia is controllable with medication — and Sheila only had it MILDLY.

None of this fictitious nonsense makes sense: if Dr Ferguson truly said Sheila would get worse arrangements would have been put into place immediately for Colin to have sole custody of the twins, and all visits to Sheila would have been supervised.

It’s all rubbish.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 08:10:15 AM »
The twins didn’t have a future, it was stolen from them by their uncle.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2020, 08:25:39 AM »
That was Sheila and Colin’s Business.

By the way, Dr Ferguson never said her condition would worsen — wherever did you read that?

I read that Dr Ferguson said Sheila had MILD schizophrenia and it could be treated with medication. He also said Sheila was not a danger to herself OR her sons, and he was more than happy for her to have regular unsupervised access to the boys, including having them at weekends etc. So your version is exaggerated.

But whatever the situation, it wasn’t up to June or Nevill how the boys were to be brought up. And Colin had custody too, so he’d never have allowed June to interfere.

Colin was a decent, warm loving young father and despite Jeremy killing his two beautiful boys, he’s forged a wonderful career for himself and is happily married living in a beautiful home with his wife and daughter. He’s done extremely well to come through such a tragedy and to make such a lovely life for himself — given what heartache Jeremy put him through.

Dr Ferguson said that in March '85 Sheila was was in an acute psychotic state. This was reduced with medication but flared up again when the dose was reduced. She was hostile with the nursing staff. He says that faced with what she saw as real threats she "could respond with physical aggression directed to property, to herself or to others". If she thought the children might be removed from her care Ferguson would have expected a very negative reaction. She would have either withdrawn into depression or become angry and vitriolic. [w/s 30/09/86]

Sheila's parents wanted to put her into a nursing home in Bournemouth, according to Pamela Boutflour. This would sever her connections with her London friends, and reduce her contact with Colin and the children. Although she would have objected, judging by the past her parents tended to overule her wishes. She couldn't rely on Colin's support; his priority was the children. She must have felt alone and powerless. Whether that, combined with the reduction in her medication was enough to reignite her psychosis I don't know, but I don't think it can be ruled out.

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Offline APRIL

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2020, 08:50:02 AM »
Colin’s never lied about a thing: everything he’s said has been substantiated. Dr Ferguson never said Sheila would get “worse” — schizophrenia is controllable with medication — and Sheila only had it MILDLY.

None of this fictitious nonsense makes sense: if Dr Ferguson truly said Sheila would get worse arrangements would have been put into place immediately for Colin to have sole custody of the twins, and all visits to Sheila would have been supervised.

It’s all rubbish.


I'm as good at finding cites, as are you, but you may take it as read that Dr Ferguson undoubtedly DID tell Colin that Sheila's condition would worsen. It's something Jeremy's supporters have used against Sheila since I first joined a forum. If you fully read my post, you'll have seen my suggestion that it was said when Sheila was first admitted and diagnosed, an assessment of her condition prior to intervention. It was NOT the prognosis she left hospital with, adequately medicated.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2020, 09:41:58 AM »
Dr Ferguson said that in March '85 Sheila was was in an acute psychotic state. This was reduced with medication but flared up again when the dose was reduced. She was hostile with the nursing staff. He says that faced with what she saw as real threats she "could respond with physical aggression directed to property, to herself or to others". If she thought the children might be removed from her care Ferguson would have expected a very negative reaction. She would have either withdrawn into depression or become angry and vitriolic. [w/s 30/09/86]

Sheila's parents wanted to put her into a nursing home in Bournemouth, according to Pamela Boutflour. This would sever her connections with her London friends, and reduce her contact with Colin and the children. Although she would have objected, judging by the past her parents tended to overule her wishes. She couldn't rely on Colin's support; his priority was the children. She must have felt alone and powerless. Whether that, combined with the reduction in her medication was enough to reignite her psychosis I don't know, but I don't think it can be ruled out.






Sheila never had another psychotic episode after March, so you’re wrong, again. Show me the evidence that Sheila had more episodes afterwards, Gunit. I guarantee you won’t —  because she didn’t have any. That one episode in March was dealt with, and on her follow up visits to Dr Ferguson he said she was improving.

Your unqualified assumption that maybe Sheila suddenly had an episode due to her medication having been reduced is rubbish. Medical studies prove that there’s very little difference in the effectiveness between 100mg & 200mg doses, and as Sheila was so listless, tired and weak on that day, that proves the Haloperidol was more than effective and she wasn’t psychotic.

Psychotic episodes don’t suddenly start up in a flash. There’s signs of a lead-up: and she showed no signs at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. She could barely walk. She hadn’t been in a state of severe agitation for days, which are all the signs of an oncoming episode. She was actually docile and tired — not hyperactive, manic and rambling.

The alleged argument the proven liar, Jeremy claimed took place could not have happened as he later tripped himself up and said Sheila was just “sitting there saying nothing”. He engineered a false scenario to try and give a reason why Sheila may have gone “mad”. But if anyone goes “mad” it’s midst argument: they don’t go off to bed, fall asleep, then suddenly wake up at 3am and storm downstairs to pick up a long rifle — that they don’t know how to use — and start shooting the very sons they so desperately don’t want to lose.

It’s also nonsense to suggest she killed everyone because June suggested she should go to Bournemouth for a “rest”.

It wasn’t a permanent proposal; June obviously thought a break away for a fortnight might cheer her up, and Sheila wouldn’t have gone there despite June’s well-meaning suggestion.

You’re just fixated with trying to suggest Sheila suddenly went psychotic, but what you fail to realise, Gunit, is that psychotic episodes don’t occur suddenly: there’s a long, slow lead-up which is  apparent to everyone and are independent of outside influences: so even had there been an argument that itself wouldn’t cause a full blown-out psychosis.

It’s irrelevant whether you think it can’t be ruled out, because you’re not a doctor, you’re not specialised, and the courts would never be interested in a stranger’s unqualified opinion. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 09:46:45 AM by Ispywithmybigeye »
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Was the twins' future up for discussion?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2020, 10:00:49 AM »

I'm as good at finding cites, as are you, but you may take it as read that Dr Ferguson undoubtedly DID tell Colin that Sheila's condition would worsen. It's something Jeremy's supporters have used against Sheila since I first joined a forum. If you fully read my post, you'll have seen my suggestion that it was said when Sheila was first admitted and diagnosed, an assessment of her condition prior to intervention. It was NOT the prognosis she left hospital with, adequately medicated.


I’m not doubting what you read, April, but studies prove that Schizophrenia does not get worse. It CAN do if left untreated, like any illness, but as Schizophrenia is so apparent it’s unlikely anyone would go unnoticed if they had it and not be treated for it.

What or where you read that Dr Ferguson supposedly said Sheila could get worse, I can only assume it was a misquote or had been taken out of context, or was simply just part of Dr Ferguson’s prognosis report and didn’t show the whole thing in its entirety
.

Here’s one link for you, and a screenshot too


https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/schizophrenia-treatment-and-self-help.htm

[attachment deleted by admin]
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.