Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: John on March 21, 2014, 10:54:46 PM
Title: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 21, 2014, 10:54:46 PM
It is normal practice in a criminal investigation in Portugal to undertake a 'reconstitution' of events in which the original participants and witnesses all take part. This event is somewhat distinct from the reconstruction which police in the UK use where deemed necessary when investigating a serious crime. The main difference being that a reconstruction usually involves using police officers or actors.
The officer who lead the original investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, Dr Gonçalo Amaral, wanted to carry out a reconstitution but was unable to do so and later stated for the record, "The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it."
An attempt to carry out a reconstitution at a later date was met by refusals by many of the witnesses who had by then returned to the UK rendering it impossible. It was subsequently abandoned.
To the best of our knowledge, no official reconstitution or reconstruction has ever taken place in the seven years since Madeleine disappeared.
1333
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 08:58:24 AM
All this thread has gone to show is how valid Rebelo's request (refused by the McCann's via their spokesman and the rest of their group) for a reconstruction was.
It could once and for all resolved these issues.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 09:14:46 AM
All this thread has gone to show is how valid Rebelo's request (refused by the McCann's via their spokesman and the rest of their group) for a reconstruction was.
It could once and for all resolved these issues.
Bearing in mind the unwillingness of some of the group to participate in a reconstruction, I have never understood why, with all the technology that police have available, the data from all the various statements hasn't been put into a computer and a virtual simulation of the activities of that night created. The discrepancies would be glaringly obvious and could then be further probed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on March 25, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
All this thread has gone to show is how valid Rebelo's request (refused by the McCann's via their spokesman and the rest of their group) for a reconstruction was.
It could once and for all resolved these issues.
The Mccanns pressed the PJ for a reconstruction at the time of the abduction.
Their request was refused. I wonder why? >@@(*&)
BTW, Albertini, you are innacurate. The Mccanns have NEVER refused to go back. PLease get your facts straight.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on March 25, 2014, 09:54:59 AM
Bearing in mind the unwillingness of some of the group to participate in a reconstruction, I have never understood why, with all the technology that police have available, the data from all the various statements hasn't been put into a computer and a virtual simulation of the activities of that night created. The discrepancies would be glaringly obvious and could then be further probed.
I believe this has already been done Jassi.
Quote from Andy Redwood
...we have conducted a forensic analysis of the timelines and there is clearly oppportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive - '' Unquote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R_RjWWCKEA DCI Andy Redwood on 'Daybreak'
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2014, 10:14:06 AM
Bearing in mind the unwillingness of some of the group to participate in a reconstruction, I have never understood why, with all the technology that police have available, the data from all the various statements hasn't been put into a computer and a virtual simulation of the activities of that night created. The discrepancies would be glaringly obvious and could then be further probed.
It seems sy have the technology do do this so they probably have......hence the mccanns are not suspects
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 10:22:59 AM
It seems sy have the technology do do this so they probably have......hence the mccanns are not suspects
Possibly - something else we can't be certain about.
Having said that, I'm sure that if the Tapas group had been questioned further, following such a simulation and had been cleared, I'm sure Mitchel would have been trumpeting the news from the rooftops
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 25, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
Possibly - something else we can't be certain about.
Having said that, I'm sure that if the Tapas group had been questioned further, following such a simulation and had been cleared, I'm sure Mitchel would have been trumpeting the news from the rooftops
As he is aspiring to be the Honourable Member for Brighton Pavilion he will need to play a canny game. Close enough to take credit if it pans out but far enough away to look clean should it not.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on March 25, 2014, 11:02:07 AM
I just love people who are so sure of things they cannot possibly know 8(0(*
How else could a' forensic analysis' be undertaken if not with a specialised computer programme? This type of equipment has been around for ages - I remember seeing a 'virtual' reconstruction of the Kennedy assassination years ago.
Any idea that New Scotland Yard may not have this type of facility is to be completely unrealistic IMO
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 25, 2014, 11:07:24 AM
How else could a' forensic analysis' be undertaken if not with a specialised computer programme? This type of equipment has been around for ages - I remember seeing a 'virtual' reconstruction of the Kennedy assassination years ago.
Any idea that New Scotland Yard may not have this type of facility is to be completely unrealistic IMO
If Scotland Yard hasn't got it then who has?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on March 25, 2014, 11:42:17 AM
Members are asked to please refrain from posting their own previous posts as quotes. This is spamming.
John You must have noticed how posters from your side of the fence always drown out all my more profound posts by flooding the thread with silly little irrelevances.
They delibetaely hide them with trivia.,
What is that drowning out of my posts called ?
As long as this continues, I have no option but to repost my posts. I wouldn't chose to.
It is totally unfair. Of course I have to repost .. or NOT have a voice
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 25, 2014, 12:37:45 PM
John You must have noticed how posters from your side of the fence always drown out all my more profound posts by flooding the thread with silly little irrelevances.
They delibetaely hide them with trivia.,
What is that drowning out of my posts called ?
As long as this continues, I have no option but to repost my posts. I wouldn't chose to.
It is totally unfair. Of course I have to repost .. or NOT have a voice
Maybe you missed my post clearing up your latest conspiracy. It's on the previous page, should you wish to look.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2014, 12:57:33 PM
Bearing in mind the unwillingness of some of the group to participate in a reconstruction, I have never understood why, with all the technology that police have available, the data from all the various statements hasn't been put into a computer and a virtual simulation of the activities of that night created. The discrepancies would be glaringly obvious and could then be further probed.
It seems sy have the technology do do this so they probably have......hence the mccanns are not suspects
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 25, 2014, 01:14:08 PM
John You must have noticed how posters from your side of the fence always drown out all my more profound posts by flooding the thread with silly little irrelevances.
They delibetaely hide them with trivia.,
What is that drowning out of my posts called ?
As long as this continues, I have no option but to repost my posts. I wouldn't chose to.
It is totally unfair. Of course I have to repost .. or NOT have a voice
How old are you ? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 01:34:56 PM
The Mccanns pressed the PJ for a reconstruction at the time of the abduction.
Their request was refused. I wonder why? >@@(*&)
BTW, Albertini, you are innacurate. The Mccanns have NEVER refused to go back. PLease get your facts straight.
Sadie, you are wrong again. Read my wording and then look at this quote from Clarence Mitchell in the People on Sunday 6th April 2008 under an article written by Tom Carlin:
Quote
"The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.
Their lawyers would block it anyway.
But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently."
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on March 25, 2014, 01:40:26 PM
Sadie, you are wrong again. Read my wording and then look at this quote from Clarence Mitchell in the People on Sunday 6th April 2008 under an article written by Tom Carlin:
They, I repeat THEY, were prepared to go. Thank God they didn't.
Very wise Lawyer.... maybe he thought they were about to be entrapped? Dunno, but I have an uneasy feeling.
Very wise Lawyer. But they were prepared to go.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 25, 2014, 01:47:53 PM
But alas, they prevented the investigation from continuing &, in effect ,abandoned a missing toddler to her fate.
A terrible act of cowardice on their part.
Can you please explain how they:
1) prevented the investigation from continuing considering the investigation is active now 2) abandoned a toddler to her fate 3) was an act of cowardice?
Thank you
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 02:02:13 PM
Sadie, you are wrong again. Read my wording and then look at this quote from Clarence Mitchell in the People on Sunday 6th April 2008 under an article written by Tom Carlin:
139 Letter from R. Alves regarding K. McCann's willingness to participate in the reconstruction 09 01 Apensos IX Vol I Page 139 o_apensoIX_vol_1_Page_139
Public Ministry of Portimao Case Section Case 201/07 GALGS
Dear Sir Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
1) prevented the investigation from continuing considering the investigation is active now 2) abandoned a toddler to her fate 3) was an act of cowardice?
Thank you
Ok
1) If they had gone back, taken part in a reconstitution, cooperated fully & thus, demonstrated their innocence, then the investigation could have continued 7 years ago when, supposedly, there would have been more chance of finding the child alive, even though I reckon she was already brown bread, but that's beside the point.
2) Duh!
3)They pussied out.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 02:06:56 PM
Speaking to The Portugal News in early 2009, Gerry McCann stressed “that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and there is no evidence to suggest that Kate and I were involved in any theories.” Gerry McCann also insisted they would have been legally compelled to be available for a reconstruction due to their status as arguidos, even the motives of Portuguese police were questionable. “Don’t get me wrong, we had major concerns as to why the reconstruction was being done”, arguing that “the police reconstruction was not aimed at finding Madeleine, but rather to look for inconsistencies. There were 12 or 15 people involved and it is inevitable there would be inconsistencies.” http://theportugalnews.com/news/closing-arguments-in-amaral-libel-case-set-for-january/30084
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 25, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
ITV 25th May 2007
Q: "And you've said that you won't go home either but at some point you may have to go home. Whe... At what point do you decide: 'Our lives must continue, we've got two other children, we have to get on?"
KM: "I mean, at this... at this moment in time I cannot think about going home without Madeleine, errr... and we certainly have no plans at all to go home with Madeleine... without Madeleine."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id260.html
'On the flight to Berlin, Gerry wearily admitted the couple's campaign to find Madeleine could last years.
They refuse to leave Praia da Luz while their precious daughter is still missing.
Asked how long they might stay there, he said: "Well, our kids don't start school for three years."'
- Daily Mirror, 07 June 2007
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 02:11:57 PM
Speaking to The Portugal News in early 2009, Gerry McCann stressed “that there is no evidence that Madeleine is dead and there is no evidence to suggest that Kate and I were involved in any theories.” Gerry McCann also insisted they would have been legally compelled to be available for a reconstruction due to their status as arguidos, even the motives of Portuguese police were questionable. “Don’t get me wrong, we had major concerns as to why the reconstruction was being done”, arguing that “the police reconstruction was not aimed at finding Madeleine, but rather to look for inconsistencies. There were 12 or 15 people involved and it is inevitable there would be inconsistencies.” http://theportugalnews.com/news/closing-arguments-in-amaral-libel-case-set-for-january/30084
That's no reason not to go ahead with the reconstruction. The McCanns were happy to say they were willing to go back, confident that it would not go ahead because some of these friends would refuse to take part, as indeed they did.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 02:31:34 PM
They, I repeat THEY, were prepared to go. Thank God they didn't.
Very wise Lawyer.... maybe he thought they were about to be entrapped? Dunno, but I have an uneasy feeling.
Very wise Lawyer. But they were prepared to go.
Well, their official spokesman said on the record in April 2008, that their lawyers would block them going back and lo and behold they did not go back.
They had been blocked from doing so according to their spokesman. Those are an on the record quotes.
And can you show me where the McCann's had offered to come back for a reconstruction months before with quotes please.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 02:36:37 PM
Well, their official spokesman said on the record in April 2008, that their lawyers would block them going back and lo and behold they did not go back.
They had been blocked from doing so according to their spokesman. Those are an on the record quotes.
And can you show me where the McCann's had offered to come back for a reconstruction months before with quotes please.
I didn't realise that lawyers had such power. I thought their role was to advise their clients
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 25, 2014, 02:38:07 PM
Well, their official spokesman said on the record in April 2008, that their lawyers would block them going back and lo and behold they did not go back.
They had been blocked from doing so according to their spokesman. Those are an on the record quotes.
And can you show me where the McCann's had offered to come back for a reconstruction months before with quotes please.
I'M sure they would have done anything to avoid going back and who can blame them...hence the employment of the extradition lawyers...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 02:38:54 PM
Well, their official spokesman said on the record in April 2008, that their lawyers would block them going back and lo and behold they did not go back.
They had been blocked from doing so according to their spokesman. Those are an on the record quotes.
And can you show me where the McCann's had offered to come back for a reconstruction months before with quotes please.
1) If they had gone back, taken part in a reconstitution, cooperated fully & thus, demonstrated their innocence, then the investigation could have continued 7 years ago when, supposedly, there would have been more chance of finding the child alive, even though I reckon she was already brown bread, but that's beside the point.
There is no evidence to suggest that this opnion is accurate or substantiated by any facts. If the investigation was lost then Sotland Yard aren't going to waste time and effort on something they don't have a chance to solve.
Quote
2) Duh!
An adroite reply but with only one minor flaw. It's not an answer.
Quote
3)They pussied out.
Personal opinion noted however it has no bearing on the reality of the case I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 02:43:07 PM
139 Letter from R. Alves regarding K. McCann's willingness to participate in the reconstruction 09 01 Apensos IX Vol I Page 139 o_apensoIX_vol_1_Page_139
Public Ministry of Portimao Case Section Case 201/07 GALGS
Dear Sir Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
Yes, we all know this but when you interpret the facts, interpret that the group spoke about the reconstruction, and throw in that (as Clarence helpfully told the world) the lawyers had blocked them from going back you can see that in order to comply with their Arguido status whilst not actually wanting to go back themselves they achieved a blocking through their friends.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
1) If they had gone back, taken part in a reconstitution, cooperated fully & thus, demonstrated their innocence, then the investigation could have continued 7 years ago when, supposedly, there would have been more chance of finding the child alive, even though I reckon she was already brown bread, but that's beside the point.
2) Duh!
3)They pussied out.
- How would a reconstruction have demonstrated their innocence, as opposed to merely the possibility that their version was plausible?
- How would it have made the investigation continue, when strict deadlines for investigations in Portugal - in the absence of a new and credible lead - meant that a judicial decision had to be taken very quickly (and had already been extended beyond the norm pending the results of the rogs)?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 25, 2014, 02:48:51 PM
There is no evidence to suggest that this opnion is accurate or substantiated by any facts. If the investigation was lost then Sotland Yard aren't going to waste time and effort on something they don't have a chance to solve.
An adroite reply but with only one minor flaw. It's not an answer.
Personal opinion noted however it has no bearing on the reality of the case I'm afraid.
Well thankyou for your opinions.
Heres a question for you,
Their daughter needed them, were they of any help to her by not going back?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 25, 2014, 02:50:55 PM
- How would a reconstruction have demonstrated their innocence, as opposed to merely the possibility that their version was plausible?
- How would it have made the investigation continue, when strict deadlines for investigations in Portugal - in the absence of a new and credible lead - meant that a judicial decision had to be taken very quickly (and had already been extended beyond the norm pending the results of the rogs)?
Blahdy blah
Their daughter needed them, were they of any help to her by not going back?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 02:52:53 PM
Nope, that's Kate McCann's replay to the re-enactment in 2008 which was blocked by her lawyers through her friends.
I'm talking about this that Sadie said:
Ah. OK. I haven't seen that the McCanns pressed for a re-enactment at that time, but why didn't the police do one when most of the protagonists (including waiters, etc., possibly other tourists, residents) would have been there? Wouldn't that have been more logical?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 02:54:11 PM
Yes, we all know this but when you interpret the facts, interpret that the group spoke about the reconstruction, and throw in that (as Clarence helpfully told the world) the lawyers had blocked them from going back you can see that in order to comply with their Arguido status whilst not actually wanting to go back themselves they achieved a blocking through their friends.
I have no doubt that they all questioned the purpose in going back at that late stage. I would have questioned it, particularly if I had been one of the group and had read rubbish posted about me in the PT press for nearly a year. I'd have wondered what they hell the PJ were up to by that stage (with hindsight, I find Rebelo to have been neutral and trying to do his best - but they couldn't have known that).
Jez wasn't nuts about going over and facing a media scrum, either.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on March 25, 2014, 03:01:27 PM
I'd still like to know how this reconstruction would be undertaken. No-one has ever offered an explanation?
For instance JT says she left the table 5 or 10 mins after Gerry. So which time do they use in a reconstruction -12 months later - 5 min or 10 mins? or what if she was wrong and it was actually 7 mins. Jez Wilkins said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 mins - so which time would they use during a reconstruction ?- would Jez and Gerry stand together for 3 mins or 5 mins? The same problem arises with everyone else who could only give approximate times.
Would they have to keep doing the recon over and over again using all the possible different times?
The number of different permutations that are possible taking into account all of these approximate times are incalculable.
Normally in reconstructions accurate timing is not that important, but in this case it was imperative that they recreated their exact movements because of the small window of opportunity which was made available by them for an abduction. And that is the one thing none of them could do - except Gerry with his 9.05 definite time.
With so many people all only able to give approx. times, it simply isn't possible to guarantee recreating their movements with any accuracy. And even if they could - how could it prove the McCanns 'innocence' - I've never quite understood that. 'Innocence' of what?
On the other hand SY with their super duper technology could simply key All of the information (times, distances etc etc ) into a computer programme and it would do all the different permutations for them and confirm whether or not it was possible that there was a window of opportunity for Madeleine to be abducted. Clearly it was possible - as Andy Redwood confirmed. Also much quicker, much cheaper and without the anguish of having to relive that night again which returning to Portugal and physically taking part would inevitably invoke.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 03:02:24 PM
It was dropped. The investigation had already been extended beyond the norm and what would it have proved? I have found no indication of anyone being requested to return aside from the T9 + Jez... What about the waiters? Murat? Other guests? Other tourists? Residents?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 03:10:52 PM
Why wasn't this organised back in early May when most of the people present in the area would have still been around?
It would have been far better had it been done on the Friday evening following her mysterious disappearance, when the majority of the holidaymakers were still there.
I have no doubt that the PJ done so they would have been branded as insensitive.
In the end, plans for a reconstruction were dropped due to lack of cooperation. Given that British police have the capability for computer simulations (so I am told), I find it very surprising that this facility wasn't offered when the arrangements for a physical reconstruction collapsed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 03:12:11 PM
I'd still like to know how this reconstruction would be undertaken. No-one has ever offered an explanation?
For instance JT says she left the table 5 or 10 mins after Gerry. So which time do they use in a reconstruction -12 months later - 5 min or 10 mins? or what if she was wrong and it was actually 7 mins. Jez Wilkins said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 mins - so which time would they use during a reconstruction ?- would Jez and Gerry stand together for 3 mins or 5 mins? The same problem arises with everyone else who could only give approximate times.
Would they have to have to keep doing the recon over and over again using all the possible different times?
The number of different permutations that are possible taking into account all of these approximate times are incalculable.
Normally in reconstructions accurate timing is not that important, but in this case it was imperative that they recreated their exact movements because of the small window of opportunity which was made available by them for an abduction. And that is the one thing none of them could do - except Gerry with his 9.05 definite time.
With so many people all only able to give approx. times, it simply isn't possible to guarantee recreating their movements with any accuracy. And even if they could - how could it prove the McCanns 'innocence' - I've never quite understood that. 'Innocence' of what?
On the other hand SY with their super duper technology could simply key All of the information (times, distances etc etc ) into a computer programme and it would do all the different permutations for them and confirm whether or not it was possible that there was a window of opportunity for Madeleine to be abducted. Clearly it was possible - as Andy Redwood confirmed. Also much quicker, much cheaper and without the anguish of having to relive that night again which returning to Portugal and physically taking part would inevitably invoke.
That seems perfectly logical to me, Benice.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 25, 2014, 03:27:03 PM
I'd still like to know how this reconstruction would be undertaken. No-one has ever offered an explanation?
For instance JT says she left the table 5 or 10 mins after Gerry. So which time do they use in a reconstruction -12 months later - 5 min or 10 mins? or what if she was wrong and it was actually 7 mins. Jez Wilkins said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 mins - so which time would they use during a reconstruction ?- would Jez and Gerry stand together for 3 mins or 5 mins? The same problem arises with everyone else who could only give approximate times.
Would they have to have to keep doing the recon over and over again using all the possible different times?
The number of different permutations that are possible taking into account all of these approximate times are incalculable.
Normally in reconstructions accurate timing is not that important, but in this case it was imperative that they recreated their exact movements because of the small window of opportunity which was made available by them for an abduction. And that is the one thing none of them could do - except Gerry with his 9.05 definite time.
With so many people all only able to give approx. times, it simply isn't possible to guarantee recreating their movements with any accuracy. And even if they could - how could it prove the McCanns 'innocence' - I've never quite understood that. 'Innocence' of what?
On the other hand SY with their super duper technology could simply key All of the information (times, distances etc etc ) into a computer programme and it would do all the different permutations for them and confirm whether or not it was possible that there was a window of opportunity for Madeleine to be abducted. Clearly it was possible - as Andy Redwood confirmed. Also much quicker, much cheaper and without the anguish of having to relive that night again which returning to Portugal and physically taking part would inevitably invoke.
"prove the McCanns 'innocence' "
Demonstrate, not prove.
ie: they wouldn't look half as guilty as they do if they & their friends had cooperated fully.
As a result of them not , some people think the McCanns are more than a bit dodgy, and it's their own fault really isn't it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 25, 2014, 03:27:23 PM
Their daughter needed them, were they of any help to her by not going back?
They did everything they possibly could, they did the initial search and told the PJ all they could. Then it was over to the PJ and Snr Amaral to find Madeleine, not her parents.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 25, 2014, 03:28:48 PM
They did everything they possibly could, they did the initial search and told the PJ all they could. Then it was over to the PJ and Snr Amaral to find Madeleine, not her parents.
That's a no from you as well then.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 03:33:02 PM
They did everything they possibly could, they did the initial search and told the PJ all they could. Then it was over to the PJ and Snr Amaral to find Madeleine, not her parents.
In that, I think you are mistaken.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
I have no doubt that they all questioned the purpose in going back at that late stage. I would have questioned it, particularly if I had been one of the group and had read rubbish posted about me in the PT press for nearly a year. I'd have wondered what they hell the PJ were up to by that stage (with hindsight, I find Rebelo to have been neutral and trying to do his best - but they couldn't have known that).
Jez wasn't nuts about going over and facing a media scrum, either.
Well, they were supposed to be helping their friends find their daughter through the only official investigation at the time.
Rebelo's team were nothing to do with Amaral, and the idea they were going back to a North Korean style police state is frankly ridiculous.
The investigation deemed it necessary and indeed Rebelo's team went out of their way to provide explanations as to the purpose of it through the email exchanges between the group.
The fact is the investigation required it to move the process forward. The McCann's lawyers blocked them going by ensuring it was a worthless excercise without their friends whilst complying with their Arguido status.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 25, 2014, 03:41:22 PM
I'd still like to know how this reconstruction would be undertaken. No-one has ever offered an explanation?
For instance JT says she left the table 5 or 10 mins after Gerry. So which time do they use in a reconstruction -12 months later - 5 min or 10 mins? or what if she was wrong and it was actually 7 mins. Jez Wilkins said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 mins - so which time would they use during a reconstruction ?- would Jez and Gerry stand together for 3 mins or 5 mins? The same problem arises with everyone else who could only give approximate times.
Would they have to keep doing the recon over and over again using all the possible different times?
The number of different permutations that are possible taking into account all of these approximate times are incalculable.
Normally in reconstructions accurate timing is not that important, but in this case it was imperative that they recreated their exact movements because of the small window of opportunity which was made available by them for an abduction. And that is the one thing none of them could do - except Gerry with his 9.05 definite time.
With so many people all only able to give approx. times, it simply isn't possible to guarantee recreating their movements with any accuracy. And even if they could - how could it prove the McCanns 'innocence' - I've never quite understood that. 'Innocence' of what?
On the other hand SY with their super duper technology could simply key All of the information (times, distances etc etc ) into a computer programme and it would do all the different permutations for them and confirm whether or not it was possible that there was a window of opportunity for Madeleine to be abducted. Clearly it was possible - as Andy Redwood confirmed. Also much quicker, much cheaper and without the anguish of having to relive that night again which returning to Portugal and physically taking part would inevitably invoke.
From Rebelo:
Quote
The re-enactment of the fact is a procedure set forth in the Portuguese Law (Section 150 of the Portuguese Code of Criminal Procedure, which is below given as part of this order) and consists of re-enacting, as accurately as possible, the situation where an event is said or is supposed to have occurred, and it also consists of repeating the way it has happened.
The re-enactment has, in this inquiry, a rather particular nature, taking into account that it aims at re-enacting facts occurred about a year ago, by means of a proximity to the situation in which they occurred, and also being aware of the inconvenience that a trip to Portugal might represent to a group of British Citizens, although knowing that it represents a milestone of solidarity among friends and towards friends who find themselves in a particularly painful and difficult situation.
It shall also be noted that, although this procedure is considered to be very important to the investigation, it will only take place if all the below mentioned witnesses are present, considering that the arguidos (formal suspects) have already shown they are available to participate in the re-enactment.
The purpose is to gather all the participants - the arguidos Gerald McCann and Kate Healy, the witnesses who were having dinner at the Tapas Restaurant on 3rd May 2007, and who took turns to check on their children who were sleeping in the respective apartments, as well as another witness who spoke with the arguido Gerald, who will perform what they did on the abovementioned date, as accurately as they recall, so that what is in their written statements can be confirmed. This will allow conclusions to be drawn on how things happened on site, thus making adjustments that will allow the investigation to determine the need for any supplemental procedure.
Page 4304 (Page 2 of 3)
The re-enactment that shall have the participation of the abovementioned group of people, as well as of any character whose figurative presence might be necessary to the visualization of the events, shall take place on 15th May, between 5.30 p.m. and 11.00 p.m. On 16th May all the procedure shall be formalized, according to what had already been settled for this date and considering that all the participants meant to be present have already been informed accordingly. This cannot be subject to any change due to the time and place where the procedure shall take place.
The re-enactment will be performed at the space of the abovementioned Restaurant, Block of Apartments where the facts occurred on that date, and in the surrounding area, and it will be carried out by the Policia Judiciária, with the respective video recording and with the cooperation of the Police Authorities required by the PJ.
The arguidos Gerald and Kate shall be notified through their Legal Representatives. The notification of the witnesses David Anthony Payne, Fiona Elaine Payne, Dianne Webster, Russell James O'Brien, Jane Michelle Tanner, Matthew David Oldfield, Rachael Mariamma Jean Mampilly and Jeremy Wilkins shall be made with the cooperation of the British Police, at Policia Judiciária's request.
Each notified person shall receive a copy of this Order - concerning the re-enactment.
Proceed accordingly.
APPENDIX - Copy of Section 150 of the Portuguese Code of Criminal Procedure
Of the re-enactment of events
Section 150
Assumptions and Procedure
1- A re-enactment of events is admissible whenever deemed necessary to ascertain whether a fact could have occurred in a determined way. This consists of reproducing,
Page 4305 (Page 3 of 3)
as accurately as possible, the situation in which the fact is said to have occurred or is supposed to have occurred, as well as of repeating the way it has happened.
2- The Order requring the re-enactment of the fact shall bear a short indication as to it's object, date, time and place where the procedure shall take place as well as to the way it will be carried out, eventually using audiovisual means. The same Order shall appoint experts to carry out specific operations.
3- Publicity of the proceedings shall be avoided as much as possible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 25, 2014, 03:52:15 PM
If you are so convinced that they are guilty of some involvement and you don't need any proof on which to make this choice, why are you on a forum like this discussing it, clearly you can see this is a waste of your time surely?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 25, 2014, 03:56:28 PM
I think Rebelo knew jolly well that it was a waste of time, and that he didn't expect this to come off, believing that by the failure to organize, it would reflect badly on The McCanns and leave The PJ smelling of roses. Hence the not so subtle suggestion that The PJ were looking for discrepancies that had nothing to do with finding Madeleine, which was all far too late by then anyway. A year later? Don't make me laugh.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 25, 2014, 03:57:37 PM
They did everything they possibly could, they did the initial search and told the PJ all they could. Then it was over to the PJ and Snr Amaral to find Madeleine, not her parents.
No they didn't. Kate Mccann refused to answer 48 questions.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 04:13:14 PM
I think Rebelo knew jolly well that it was a waste of time, and that he didn't expect this to come off, believing that by the failure to organize, it would reflect badly on The McCanns and leave The PJ smelling of roses. Hence the not so subtle suggestion that The PJ were looking for discrepancies that had nothing to do with finding Madeleine, which was all far too late by then anyway. A year later? Don't make me laugh.
Didn't it take about a year to get the Tapas rogatories statements as well?
Correction, they were in January, so about 8 months -still a long time
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 25, 2014, 04:19:57 PM
Didn't it take about a year to get the Tapas rogatories statements as well?
You can't blame The McCanns' friends for that delay. Any more than I would blame The PJ for the delays going on in Portugal at the moment. These letters have to be absolutely correctly dealt with by the law, otherwise any information gathered is worthless.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 04:25:09 PM
You can't blame The McCanns' friends for that delay. Any more than I would blame The PJ for the delays going on in Portugal at the moment. These letters have to be absolutely correctly dealt with by the law, otherwise any information gathered is worthless.
I wasn't thinking of blaming any one - merely commenting on how slowly these things ground on.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 25, 2014, 04:45:38 PM
I wasn't thinking of blaming any one - merely commenting on how slowly these things ground on.
Sorry if I sounded accusatory. I guess I was.
The time to do a reconstruction was in the beginning, but it was refused, for spurious reasons that defeat me. A year later they had all had enough of the leaks and the lies about all of them. And there were more leaks from PJ sources while The Rogs were going on and when Rebelo was out of Portugal. That would put anyone off, especially as they were not legally obliged to engage in what was increasingly looking like a stitch up of all of them. Would you have gone?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on March 25, 2014, 04:57:59 PM
Thanks for that Albertini - but with hand on heart I still cannot see how it could be carried out with any accuracy 12 months after the event. An accurate recon by TEN different people could not be guaranteed - or even expected IMO - and as 'accuracy' was the key element required for it to be of any use - I really don't see the point of even trying.
As for their friends all being mega suspicious - I find that totally understandable after their own experience of being viciously smeared by the PT media - and after watching with horror as attempts were made to frame Kate and Gerry - why would anyone expect them to have the slightest trust in the PJ?
On top of that (as if that wasn't enough) the fact that press intrusion could not be guaranteed, the fact that the McCanns were referred to as 'the offenders' in the correspondence and especially the request 'not to bring their children' would have been more than enough to send my suspicions right through the roof!
Recons are usually carried out to hopefully jog the memories of unassociated members of the public or passers by who were in the same area at the time. I didn't see any evidence that this was the aim of this proposed reconstruction. So if it was me - I would be very suspicious as to what it's aims really were - as hoping to throw light on what happened to Madeleine didn't seem to be one of them
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 25, 2014, 04:59:06 PM
The time to do a reconstruction was in the beginning, but it was refused, for spurious reasons that defeat me. A year later they had all had enough of the leaks and the lies about all of them. And there were more leaks from PJ sources while The Rogs were going on and when Rebelo was out of Portugal. That would put anyone off, especially as they were not legally obliged to engage in what was increasingly looking like a stitch up of all of them. Would you have gone?
Very difficult to know when you are not in that situation, but on balance, if I knew myself to be blameless, then yes, I think I would. I certainly wouldn't have given any consideration to protecting friends - this was, after all, a missing child.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 25, 2014, 05:21:55 PM
I think Rebelo knew jolly well that it was a waste of time, and that he didn't expect this to come off, believing that by the failure to organize, it would reflect badly on The McCanns and leave The PJ smelling of roses. Hence the not so subtle suggestion that The PJ were looking for discrepancies that had nothing to do with finding Madeleine, which was all far too late by then anyway. A year later? Don't make me laugh.
I found Rebelo to be a decent cop, actually, trying to wade through a mess that he'd inherited and putting a stop to the embarrasing leaks from the previous team. A re-enactment so late in the day wouldn't have produced a smoking gun (and the Met forensic timeline seems to support this), nor would it have cleared the T9 (with nearly everyone else there that evening absent).
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 25, 2014, 05:45:03 PM
Thanks for that Albertini - but with hand on heart I still cannot see how it could be carried out with any accuracy 12 months after the event. An accurate recon by TEN different people could not be guaranteed - or even expected IMO - and as 'accuracy' was the key element required for it to be of any use - I really don't see the point of even trying.
As for their friends all being mega suspicious - I find that totally understandable after their own experience of being viciously smeared by the PT media - and after watching with horror as attempts were made to frame Kate and Gerry - why would anyone expect them to have the slightest trust in the PJ?
On top of that (as if that wasn't enough) the fact that press intrusion could not be guaranteed, the fact that the McCanns were referred to as 'the offenders' in the correspondence and especially the request 'not to bring their children' would have been more than enough to send my suspicions right through the roof!
Recons are usually carried out to hopefully jog the memories of unassociated members of the public or passers by who were in the same area at the time. I didn't see any evidence that this was the aim of this proposed reconstruction. So if it was me - I would be very suspicious as to what it's aims really were - as hoping to throw light on what happened to Madeleine didn't seem to be one of them
IMO, the reconstruction was to see if the "recorded" timelines taken as an indication of the general timescales could actually work rather than charge people because they were 5 minutes out with their stated times.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 25, 2014, 10:13:54 PM
She could have been temporarily hidden literally anywhere, from a dumpster to the beach to the road works to under the landscaping.
People were looking for a live child not a deceased one, it was very dark also so they mainly had to call her name instead of visibly LOOK.
Apart from her mother that is, who did neither.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 26, 2014, 12:55:36 AM
The Mccanns pressed the PJ for a reconstruction at the time of the abduction.
Their request was refused. I wonder why? >@@(*&)
I didn't know that
Are you saying the McCanns ( and their chums ) offered to take part in a police reconstruction, and that police rejected their offer ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 01:01:20 AM
It is very clear from the responses made by those members of the tapas group who refused to return for a reconstruction that they were all singing from the same hymn sheet.
I was under the impression that cooperation by witnesses in a potential child murder case was mandatory within the EU and that they could be subpoenaed and compelled to return to the scene of the crime. I wonder who pulled Rebelo's strings on that one?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 26, 2014, 01:28:36 AM
It is very clear from the responses made by those members of the tapas group who refused to return for a reconstruction that they were all singing from the same hymn sheet.
I was under the impression that cooperation by witnesses in a potential child murder case was mandatory within the EU and that they could be subpoenaed and compelled to return to the scene of the crime. I wonder who pulled Rebelo's strings on that one?
Apparently not John ... well, not according to Kate McCann in her book anyway :
"At that point the tone of the corresponence grew more brusque and what had seemed a request began to sound more like a summons. Some people decided they wanted to take legal advice before agreeing to anything. In the end there was no quorum and the plan was abandoned"
So, as far as Kate tells it, a 'summons' to attend was out of the question, and in the end whether they attended or not was a matter of a quorum' being reached amongst themselves
She makes it sound like they took a vote on it
I wonder which of the friends were ready and willing to go back, without question ... do we know ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 26, 2014, 02:01:16 AM
"Emma Loach in 2009 worked with us to produce a filmed reconstruction of the events surrounding Madeleine’s abduction."
Glad to see that an unbiased and fair reconstruction was finally done @)(++(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 07:54:52 AM
Apparently not John ... well, not according to Kate McCann in her book anyway :
"At that point the tone of the corresponence grew more brusque and what had seemed a request began to sound more like a summons. Some people decided they wanted to take legal advice before agreeing to anything. In the end there was no quorum and the plan was abandoned"
So, as far as Kate tells it, a 'summons' to attend was out of the question, and in the end whether they attended or not was a matter of a quorum' being reached amongst themselves
She makes it sound like they took a vote on it
I wonder which of the friends were ready and willing to go back, without question ... do we know ?
And don't you think the way the Arguido conundrum in relation to taking part in the reconstruction was dealt with had all the hallmarks of lawyers fingers all over them?
In relation to the reconstruction it seems to me to be within the bounds of responsible policing for reconstructions to be a year or so after the event. Just look at crimewatch it has reconstructions of crimes more than 12 months old, yet there are no comments or complaints on here about that in other cases.
Funny that.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 07:59:12 AM
All this thread has gone to show is how valid Rebelo's request (refused by the McCann's via their spokesman and the rest of their group) for a reconstruction was.
It could once and for all resolved these issues.
No it wouldn't - a reconstruction would only prove that no one saw Madeleine being taken from the apartment, which we already know
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 26, 2014, 08:09:36 AM
No it wouldn't - a reconstruction would only prove that no one saw Madeleine being taken from the apartment, which we already know
I disagree, the reconstruction would have allowed the timings to be verified and adjusted and thus identified points at which things may have happened.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 08:13:36 AM
No it wouldn't - a reconstruction would only prove that no one saw Madeleine being taken from the apartment, which we already know
Who are you, or indeed the McCann's and their friends, to pass such judgment or indeed question the need of a process not only required, but deemed important by the official investigation into the case, on what is a perfectly legitimate process in the Portuguese penal code.
When have witnesses in any other major case been able to question and ultimately kill such a request ( and by extension the investigation itself) deemed important to the official investigation?
The sheer arrogance of it alone is simply breathtaking.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 08:16:20 AM
Who are you, or indeed the McCann's and their friends, to pass such judgment or indeed question the need of a process not only required, but deemed important by the official investigation into the case, on what is a perfectly legitimate process in the Portuguese penal code.
When have witnesses in any other major case been able to question and ultimately kill such a request ( and by extension the investigation itself) deemed important to the official investigation?
The sheer arrogance of it alone is simply breathtaking.
I think that many people think the PJ handled the case very poorly....theres a lot of support for this argument
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 08:29:00 AM
I think that many people think the PJ handled the case very poorly....theres a lot of support for this argument
Only if you are a McCann supporter can you accept the legitimacy of killing the official investigation's request for a reconstruction.
There is no excuse for it. This is a fellow EU country not North Korea, despite what Team McCann may have tried to ingrain into people.
As you admitted the other day you believed Grime 100% and his alerts. As I asked you if you do believe the alerts 100% as an impartial investigator would it not be remiss of you to follow that line of enquiry through, partially by way of reconstruction to see if what the witnesses claimed happen did in fact actually happen?
You never answered my question of you in relation to what an impartial investigator should do faced with the alerts.
I don't want this thread to go back to the dogs but what I'm saying is that clearly there was a need for the investigation to try and iron out the inconsistencies and to see if what they say happened actually did.
The fact is the parents and their friends killed it which is hugely suspicious, and the McCann's team came up with this ridiculous idea that they would be fitted up primarily because it was the only thing hey could say to avoid being accused publicly and openly of killing the investigation.
Supporters of the family lapped it up of course despite there being no evidence that it was a valid risk with Rebelo at the helm.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 08:29:43 AM
I disagree, the reconstruction would have allowed the timings to be verified and adjusted and thus identified points at which things may have happened.
And to what end would verifying the timelines be in finding out who took Madeleine when no one at the time saw her being taken away? The high profile press campaign and the investigations that took place at the time and continue to do so are following up on leads that were there irrespective of any reconstruction, probably because it's a young child involved and people want to help.
In the past I have read my posts on the internet by people who use the reconstruction to provide circumstantial “evidence” that the McCanns and their friends had a hand in this. Purely due to the fact that at the time no reconstruction took place, therefore: guilty.
However these are the same people who say Mr McCann’s body language and Mrs McCann’s lack of apparent emotion while on camera are also signs of their involvement, therefore: guilty.
And so it goes round on its merry way. In hindsight with cold cases reconstructions can be a powerful tool for creating new leads however at the time it is clear that a reconstruction would only confirm what we already know, that Madeleine was taken by someone who knew exactly what they were doing and must have known the area well to evade being seen and considered suspicious.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 08:34:54 AM
And to what end would verifying the timelines be in finding out who took Madeleine when no one at the time saw her being taken away? The high profile press campaign and the investigations that took place at the time and continue to do so are following up on leads that were there irrespective of any reconstruction, probably because it's a young child involved and people want to help.
In the past I have read my posts on the internet by people who use the reconstruction to provide circumstantial “evidence” that the McCanns and their friends had a hand in this. Purely due to the fact that at the time no reconstruction took place, therefore: guilty.
However these are the same people who say Mr McCann’s body language and Mrs McCann’s lack of apparent emotion while on camera are also signs of their involvement, therefore: guilty.
And so it goes round on its merry way. In hindsight with cold cases reconstructions can be a powerful tool for creating new leads however at the time it is clear that a reconstruction would only confirm what we already know, that Madeleine was taken by someone who knew exactly what they were doing and must have known the area well to evade being seen and considered suspicious.
You have fallen into the McCann created trap of attempting to metamorphisize this official process of a Portuguese investigation into a crimewatch style reconstruction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 08:38:02 AM
Apparently not John ... well, not according to Kate McCann in her book anyway :
"At that point the tone of the corresponence grew more brusque and what had seemed a request began to sound more like a summons. Some people decided they wanted to take legal advice before agreeing to anything. In the end there was no quorum and the plan was abandoned"
So, as far as Kate tells it, a 'summons' to attend was out of the question, and in the end whether they attended or not was a matter of a quorum' being reached amongst themselves
She makes it sound like they took a vote on it
I wonder which of the friends were ready and willing to go back, without question ... do we know ?
Wouldn't you think they would be prepared to endure just about anything if it would help get Madeleine back? Apparently not!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 08:39:26 AM
The sheer arrogance of it alone is simply breathtaking.
It's not arrogance, it frustration, desperation and lack of confidence in the people who have been given responsibility to find their missing daughter. Faced with that, their patience naturally was tested when all it seemed to them was to be constantly under scrutiny and being wildly accused of something they clearly didn’t have any involvement with. Then when the PJ started unofficially talking to the press, well that just killed off any confidence either of Madeleine’s parents had in the investigation. That must have been a horrible day for both of them to realise this.
The reconstruction at that time would have provided very little on what was already recorded at the time by the PJ, it certainly wouldn’t have incriminated the McCanns as some people obsess over and tout around the internet as evidence of guilt.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 08:48:50 AM
Wouldn't you think they would be prepared to endure just about anything if it would help get Madeleine back? Apparently not!
Not really no. When it became apparent to them that the investigation was going nowhere then what motivation would they have? The people looking for Madeleine were not in fact, they had become too preoccupied with trying to blame the McCanns even when to the casual observer this was wasting precious time in finding Madeleine.
If one empathises with them its far easy to understand their frustrations at realising Madeleine didn't stand a chance to be found at that time, Snr Amaral had written her off as dead when there was no evidence to support his theory. This lack of critical thinking by Snr Amaral has become his stock and trade now though. Considered in this context it’s not all hard to understand why lack of enthusiasm for many things became evident.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 26, 2014, 08:50:58 AM
Not really no. When it became apparent to them that the investigation was going nowhere then what motivation would they have? The people looking for Madeleine were not in fact, they had become too preoccupied with trying to blame the McCanns even when to the casual observer this was wasting precious time in finding Madeleine.
If one empathises with them its far easy to understand their frustrations at realising Madeleine didn't stand a chance to be found at that time, Snr Amaral had written her off as dead when there was no evidence to support his theory. This lack of critical thinking by Snr Amaral has become his stock and trade now though. Considered in this context it’s not all hard to understand why lack of enthusiasm for many things became evident.
Snr Amaral had written her off as dead.
Has he been proven wrong?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 08:52:14 AM
Not really no. When it became apparent to them that the investigation was going nowhere then what motivation would they have? The people looking for Madeleine were not in fact, they had become too preoccupied with trying to blame the McCanns even when to the casual observer this was wasting precious time in finding Madeleine.
If one empathises with them its far easy to understand their frustrations at realising Madeleine didn't stand a chance to be found at that time, Snr Amaral had written her off as dead when there was no evidence to support his theory. This lack of critical thinking by Snr Amaral has become his stock and trade now though. Considered in this context it’s not all hard to understand why lack of enthusiasm for many things became evident.
It was not for them to decide how police investigations should be conducted.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 26, 2014, 08:54:45 AM
It's not arrogance, it frustration, desperation and lack of confidence in the people who have been given responsibility to find their missing daughter. Faced with that, their patience naturally was tested when all it seemed to them was to be constantly under scrutiny and being wildly accused of something they clearly didn’t have any involvement with. Then when the PJ started unofficially talking to the press, well that just killed off any confidence either of Madeleine’s parents had in the investigation. That must have been a horrible day for both of them to realise this.
The reconstruction at that time would have provided very little on what was already recorded at the time by the PJ, it certainly wouldn’t have incriminated the McCanns as some people obsess over and tout around the internet as evidence of guilt.
Utter claptrap.
It is the mccanns through their clear failure to take proper care of their children by leaving them vulnerable to a variety of dangers whilst they wined and dined night after night.
Make no mistake as to where the blame lies for Madeleine's disappearance.
No abduction has been established as fact, at best it is a theory or if you prefer thesis, and as I and many other people believe it was made up......................................
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 08:59:47 AM
Who are you, or indeed the McCann's and their friends, to pass such judgment or indeed question the need of a process not only required, but deemed important by the official investigation into the case, on what is a perfectly legitimate process in the Portuguese penal code.
When have witnesses in any other major case been able to question and ultimately kill such a request ( and by extension the investigation itself) deemed important to the official investigation?
The sheer arrogance of it alone is simply breathtaking.
Absolutely 8@??)(
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 09:06:41 AM
It is the mccanns through their clear failure to take proper care of their children by leaving them vulnerable to a variety of dangers whilst they wined and dined night after night.
Make no mistake as to where the blame lies for Madeleine's disappearance.
No abduction has been established as fact, at best it is a theory or if you prefer thesis, and as I and many other people believe it was made up......................................
Yes they made a mistake leaving the children at night, I'm sure they have said this many many times and people just wont forgive them. But I think they are past caring what people think of them, they just want Madeleine back
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 26, 2014, 09:14:21 AM
Yes they made a mistake leaving the children at night, I'm sure they have said this many many times and people just wont forgive them. But I think they are past caring what people think of them, they just want Madeleine back
You are assuming an abduction of course, which has not been proved, and of course if there was no abduction.......................
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 09:19:30 AM
You know one of the things which sticks in my mind is what Edgar said during the Ch4 reconstruction when Jane and Gerry disagreed over what happened. He said that these things happen!!!!!
Yes, they happen when stories don't add up! If they couldn't even get that right... (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c001.gif)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 09:21:37 AM
Yes they made a mistake leaving the children at night, I'm sure they have said this many many times and people just wont forgive them. But I think they are past caring what people think of them, they just want Madeleine back
On the contrary. They would not still employ a PR machine, not to mention expensive lawyers if that were the case.
They care very much what people think.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 09:27:58 AM
Bottom line is...
If they had nothing to hide they had nothing to fear by taking part in anything the Portuguese felt was necessary. Madeleine deserved no less.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 09:35:34 AM
Not really no. When it became apparent to them that the investigation was going nowhere then what motivation would they have? The people looking for Madeleine were not in fact, they had become too preoccupied with trying to blame the McCanns even when to the casual observer this was wasting precious time in finding Madeleine.
If one empathises with them its far easy to understand their frustrations at realising Madeleine didn't stand a chance to be found at that time, Snr Amaral had written her off as dead when there was no evidence to support his theory. This lack of critical thinking by Snr Amaral has become his stock and trade now though. Considered in this context it’s not all hard to understand why lack of enthusiasm for many things became evident.
Considering 'the parents dun it' was only part of the scenario. Amaral and his team and lets not forget LC were quite prepared to consider the unthinkable. Remember, this is why Harrison brought PC Grime and the dogs in.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 09:41:34 AM
It's not arrogance, it frustration, desperation and lack of confidence in the people who have been given responsibility to find their missing daughter. Faced with that, their patience naturally was tested when all it seemed to them was to be constantly under scrutiny and being wildly accused of something they clearly didn’t have any involvement with. Then when the PJ started unofficially talking to the press, well that just killed off any confidence either of Madeleine’s parents had in the investigation. That must have been a horrible day for both of them to realise this.
The reconstruction at that time would have provided very little on what was already recorded at the time by the PJ, it certainly wouldn’t have incriminated the McCanns as some people obsess over and tout around the internet as evidence of guilt.
Utter hogwash to be honest.
The fact is that the contradictions in the statements of the last people to see the child before she disappeared and the witnesses to the events of the night (later described by a Judge in a Court as "incongruent even contradictory") warranted further examination and the testing of the veracity of the their claims.
Had the PJ not sought to clarify these issues they would have been negligent in their duties in investigating the disappearance of Madeleine.
Who knows what conclusions it would have come to. It may have found for example that the parents and their friends checking routines were not correct and opened a larger window of opportunity which could have altered the course of the investigation.
It may have course heaped further suspicion on the parents if their statements were proven to have been impossible to act out.
As much as that goes against the interests of the McCann's it would not be the PJ's fault if it was proven by re-enacting the statements that they had not told the truth in their accounts.
Isn't that what a police investigation should do? Discover the truth, however unpalatable for witnesses and suspects?
The only reason the reconstruction did not happen is because the parents did not want it to happen. The only same conclusion one can draw is that they must have reasons why they did not want to act out their statements.
And that then raises the question why would innocent parties not want to act out their statements if they had nothing to hide?
The drivel about being fitted up doesn't wash but is the only line they could use to defend their actions in killing it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 09:53:10 AM
Had they taken part as requested in 2008 we might have learned six years ago that the Tanner sighting of Bundleman was an innocent occurrence and that it was the Smiths who saw him as SY appear to believe.
What else has now been lost to history? Madeleine's abductor(s), if there is one/any, will be pleased!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 26, 2014, 10:03:16 AM
Not really no. When it became apparent to them that the investigation was going nowhere then what motivation would they have? The people looking for Madeleine were not in fact, they had become too preoccupied with trying to blame the McCanns even when to the casual observer this was wasting precious time in finding Madeleine.
If one empathises with them its far easy to understand their frustrations at realising Madeleine didn't stand a chance to be found at that time, Snr Amaral had written her off as dead when there was no evidence to support his theory. This lack of critical thinking by Snr Amaral has become his stock and trade now though. Considered in this context it’s not all hard to understand why lack of enthusiasm for many things became evident.
The best possible thing they could've done in those circumstances would be to do absolutely everything in their power to eliminate themselves from the inquiry.
If, as you say, they believed that the police weren't looking for Madeleine because they were hung up on the Mccanns, cooperation with the police might've got the investigation back on track.
If getting Madeleine back was the most important thing, why not do anything asked of you? I would've crawled on my knees to Portugal if I thought there was the slightest chance that my child would be returned to me. I would've begged, pleaded, threatened and emotionally blackmailed my friends to help me.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 10:08:27 AM
The best possible thing they could've done in those circumstances would be to do absolutely everything in their power to eliminate themselves from the inquiry.
If, as you say, they believed that the police weren't looking for Madeleine because they were hung up on the Mccanns, cooperation with the police might've got the investigation back on track.
If getting Madeleine back was the most important thing, why not do anything asked of you? I would've crawled on my knees to Portugal if I thought there was the slightest chance that my child would be returned to me. I would've begged, pleaded, threatened and emotionally blackmailed my friends to help me.
My sentiments exactly...good post Cariad.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on March 26, 2014, 10:19:12 AM
You know one of the things which sticks in my mind is what Edgar said during the Ch4 reconstruction when Jane and Gerry disagreed over what happened. He said that these things happen!!!!!
Yes, they happen when stories don't add up! If they couldn't even get that right... (http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/c001.gif)
But what he says is true John. The police confirmed to JT that people do have different recollections of the same incident. It's commonplace.
I once saw a TV programme showing how vastly different a number of 'eye-witnesses' recollections of the same incident - (which unknown to them was 'staged') were - when they were asked to describe what they had seen. The 'differences' in their individual memories of the event were immense.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 10:23:52 AM
But what he says is true John. The police confirmed to JT that people do have different recollections of the same incident. It's commonplace.
I once saw a TV programme showing how vastly different a number of 'eye-witnesses' recollections of the same incident - (which unknown to them was 'staged') were - when they were asked to describe what they had seen. The 'differences' in their individual memories of the event were immense.
So why are witness statements relied on so heavily in every police investigation in every police force in the world.
At what point to you do witness contradictions become suspicious?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 10:43:05 AM
The best possible thing they could've done in those circumstances would be to do absolutely everything in their power to eliminate themselves from the inquiry.
If, as you say, they believed that the police weren't looking for Madeleine because they were hung up on the Mccanns, cooperation with the police might've got the investigation back on track.
If getting Madeleine back was the most important thing, why not do anything asked of you? I would've crawled on my knees to Portugal if I thought there was the slightest chance that my child would be returned to me. I would've begged, pleaded, threatened and emotionally blackmailed my friends to help me.
How would focusing the search for Madeleine advance at all if all the PJ were doing were trying to find any evidence with which to detain Kate?
It doesn't really does it. Snr Amaral assumed she was dead so the search was secondary to finding someone, anyone to convict.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 10:48:45 AM
How would focusing the search for Madeleine advance at all if all the PJ were doing were trying to find any evidence with which to detain Kate?
It doesn't really does it. Snr Amaral assumed she was dead so the search was secondary to finding someone, anyone to convict.
After the first few days, I imagine the emphasis of the PJ was to find the perpetrator(s), rather than Madeleine, herself, who could in theory have been out of the country by then.
Do you think that unreasonable ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on March 26, 2014, 10:58:33 AM
So why are witness statements relied on so heavily in every police investigation in every police force in the world.
At what point to you do witness contradictions become suspicious?
Impossible to say as each case is different involving different numbers of witnesses. The more witnesses the more discrepancies are likely to occur.
IMO In this case the police would only be interested in establishing whether or not JT walked up that road and saw a man carrying a child. The fact that she could describe Jez and Gerry talking - and knew Jez had a buggy with him would be far more pertinent to the police in respect of that imo - rather than the exact spot they were standing at the time she saw them.
(must dash now)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 26, 2014, 11:16:43 AM
Had they taken part as requested in 2008 we might have learned six years ago that the Tanner sighting of Bundeman was an innocent occurrence and that it was the Smiths who saw him as SY appear to believe.
What else has now been lost to history? Madeleine's abductor(s), if there is one/any, will be pleased!
The most revealing part was Jane's unscripted comment about Kate saying Gerry was away so long because he was probably watching football on tv.
1. Jez and Gerry are standing and talking on the opposite side of the road to where Jane and Jez both said they were.
2. The Smith sighting is put at 9:50 (the earliest time and more importantly to finally rule Gerry out of the sighting!)
I rest my case my lord!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 12:22:03 PM
Impossible to say as each case is different involving different numbers of witnesses. The more witnesses the more discrepancies are likely to occur.
IMO In this case the police would only be interested in establishing whether or not JT walked up that road and saw a man carrying a child. The fact that she could describe Jez and Gerry talking - and knew Jez had a buggy with him would be far more pertinent to the police in respect of that imo - rather than the exact spot they were standing at the time she saw them.
(must dash now)
Absolute hokum. Your entire premise rests on the fact that the investigation, with no evidence of non involvement, has somehow excluded the parents from their suspicions or enquiries and moved on to Bundleman.
That's bad policing given that statistically family members or friends are more likely to be involved in a child's disappearance that a stranger.
It would be remiss of the Portuguese Police NOT to suspect and attempt to rule out the group.
Your belief is that they SHOULD be ruled out, but that's just because you happen to believe or like the Mccann's, but that isn't how investigations should or do work. Investigations cannot discriminate and rule people out just because potential perpetrators say they are innocent!
They have to provide the investigation with cast iron reasons why they should be ruled out. They hadn't done so, indeed their statements were so contradictory it added to the suspicion.
Hence the reconstruction, which would have served to either remove the doubt or increase it depending on what was shown to be true about what they said.
Further to that of course in relation to contradictions and it being normal for discrepancies. It is not normal for their to be wholesale changes to timelines IN UNISON between members of the group as there was regarding the Paraiso dinner and tennis match.
That is not normal.
Given all this it was and remains now perfectly correct for the PJ to try and get a handle on the truthfulness of the group's statements and actions by way of testing their version of events against real world conditions to attempt to discover if they were involve din the child's disappearance or not, as the people, statistically more likely to have carried out the crime.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 12:25:14 PM
After the first few days, I imagine the emphasis of the PJ was to find the perpetrator(s), rather than Madeleine, herself, who could in theory have been out of the country by then.
Do you think that unreasonable ?
It’s not unreasonable at all because in this scenario Madeleine is still being treated as someone who is finable as opposed to writing her off as dead.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 26, 2014, 12:26:53 PM
How would focusing the search for Madeleine advance at all if all the PJ were doing were trying to find any evidence with which to detain Kate?
It doesn't really does it. Snr Amaral assumed she was dead so the search was secondary to finding someone, anyone to convict.
the PJ trying to find any evidence with which to detain Kate is not a fact. you're assuming that. Still, the best way to deal with that situation would've been to cooperate. If she was entirely innocent, there would be no evidence to find, hence moving the case forward in the direction the Mccanns wished.
I can not think of an innocent reason not to cooperate with the police force trying to find your child. Even if you assume that they're trying to 'frame' you for the crime, showing willingness to work with them would've helped dispel any doubts. Performing the reconstruction/reconstitution would have helped to back up their story. What would an innocent person have to lose by doing it? Put that in the scale next to 'possibly find my child' and it just doesn't make sense!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 26, 2014, 12:27:40 PM
It’s not unreasonable at all because in this scenario Madeleine is still being treated as someone who is finable as opposed to writing her off as dead.
Findable ?
Pray tell where exactly ?
Courtesy of Mr. Edgar.................
'In a lawless village 10 miles from PDL' ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 26, 2014, 12:40:15 PM
It’s not unreasonable at all because in this scenario Madeleine is still being treated as someone who is finable as opposed to writing her off as dead.
It's just wishful thinking really though isn't it.
Kate believed Maddie was likely to be found inside a big dumpster type bin less than 24hrs after Jane Tanner hadn't seen the abductor. And then let's not forget Krugels corpse locator.
That's a big vote for not very alive right there.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 12:42:31 PM
the PJ trying to find any evidence with which to detain Kate is not a fact. you're assuming that. Still, the best way to deal with that situation would've been to cooperate. If she was entirely innocent, there would be no evidence to find, hence moving the case forward in the direction the Mccanns wished.
I can not think of an innocent reason not to cooperate with the police force trying to find your child. Even if you assume that they're trying to 'frame' you for the crime, showing willingness to work with them would've helped dispel any doubts. Performing the reconstruction/reconstitution would have helped to back up their story. What would an innocent person have to lose by doing it? Put that in the scale next to 'possibly find my child' and it just doesn't make sense!
No I dont agree with you I'm afraid. It gets to a stage where distraught parents get fed up with police wasting their time and I would imagine this is how they would see it. A good case in point is John and Patsy Ramsey. When it became clear to them that their daughters killer was never likely to be found because the Boulder police were not looking at anyone other than them it must have been desperate for them and to be fair to them, why would anyone engage with a police force that are just looking for any reason to detain you
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 12:54:12 PM
It’s not unreasonable at all because in this scenario Madeleine is still being treated as someone who is finable as opposed to writing her off as dead.
You don't think they were able to multi-task and do both?
I don't suppose it was the PJ's function to actually look for Madeleine, anyway, that would be another branch of the police - their function is to catch criminals.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 26, 2014, 01:05:32 PM
No I dont agree with you I'm afraid. It gets to a stage where distraught parents get fed up with police wasting their time and I would imagine this is how they would see it. A good case in point is John and Patsy Ramsey. When it became clear to them that their daughters killer was never likely to be found because the Boulder police were not looking at anyone other than them it must have been desperate for them and to be fair to them, why would anyone engage with a police force that are just looking for any reason to detain you
Well I'd probably start with "please help me find my daughter. I know you think I did this. I know that parents are always suspect. Let me help you eliminate me as quickly as possible so you can find the person who did this and maybe get her back. Tell me what to do."
Then I'd do what they told me to. Whether that's answer awkward questions or take part in something I felt was a pointless exercise.
Parents will always be among the first suspects in a case involving a child. The absolute best thing to do would be to cooperate as fully as possible so that you can be eliminated.
If I thought that my child was being held by paedophiles, which is what the Mccanns professed to believe, I can't imagine what I wouldn't do to assist in the investigation to find her.
I don't think I'd get 'fed up' enough to just give up.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 26, 2014, 01:13:16 PM
Well I'd probably start with "please help me find my daughter. I know you think I did this. I know that parents are always suspect. Let me help you eliminate me as quickly as possible so you can find the person who did this and maybe get her back. Tell me what to do."
Then I'd do what they told me to. Whether that's answer awkward questions or take part in something I felt was a pointless exercise.
Parents will always be among the first suspects in a case involving a child. The absolute best thing to do would be to cooperate as fully as possible so that you can be eliminated.
If I thought that my child was being held by paedophiles, which is what the Mccanns professed to believe, I can't imagine what I wouldn't do to assist in the investigation to find her.
I don't think I'd get 'fed up' enough to just give up.
I'd swim back to Portugal and repeatedly jump through an effing hoop for the sake of my kids lives, they wouldn't even get on plane.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 01:15:47 PM
No I dont agree with you I'm afraid. It gets to a stage where distraught parents get fed up with police wasting their time and I would imagine this is how they would see it. A good case in point is John and Patsy Ramsey. When it became clear to them that their daughters killer was never likely to be found because the Boulder police were not looking at anyone other than them it must have been desperate for them and to be fair to them, why would anyone engage with a police force that are just looking for any reason to detain you
Or alternatively the suspects could be trying to frustrate the investigation for their own nefarious benefit, which is an equally (if not more so) vaild option that the police also have to look at.
How are the police supposed to know which is the correct choice without investigating all suspects properly? Do you think the police should have ruled the McCann's out simply because they told the PJ they were innocent??
You do accept i presume that people lie, and that it is the police's job to cut through the lies relating to the investigation?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 01:22:46 PM
You don't think they were able to multi-task and do both?
I don't suppose it was the PJ's function to actually look for Madeleine, anyway, that would be another branch of the police - their function is to catch criminals.
The point I'm making is that being constantly accused of something that you didn't do is bound to demoralise even the strongest person. Given that this was the case and Snr Amaral continues to think so to the point of jeopardising his own health and future is it any wonder why Mr and Mrs McCann, and or their friends declined the invitation of a reconstruction because in reality it would be next to useless.
It’s quite clear that some people don’t share this point of view and have suggested that the reconstruction was necessary to query statements and timelines. However it is my belief that in this particular case it wouldn’t have highlighted anything new or indeed, as some firmly believe with a religious fervor, that it would be proof positive of the McCanns involvement in a crime relating to Madeleine’s disappearance.
The statements from those in the immediate area were closely considered and scrutinised, in fact as I understand the Grange review team did exactly that for some considerable time. Questioning the timeline in this way and additionally firing off questions like “where was Gerry at so and so a time” really are granular issues. If one goes close enough to something then of course holes can be picked in almost anything. Good case in point is that no one I hope doubts the Yorkshire Ripper was Peter Sutcliffe yet if you look closely at some witness testimony you can drive a bus through the holes and inconsistencies. (If anyone doesn’t believe it was Sutcliffe then please don’t bother telling me about it, I’ve heard them all from it was a copper that framed him right up to former Gestapo head Heinrich Müller harvesting body parts)
Whatever the reason they decided to turn down the invitation to the reconstruction was, from my perspective it was probably for the best.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 26, 2014, 01:31:54 PM
The point I'm making is that being constantly accused of something that you didn't do is bound to demoralise even the strongest person. Given that this was the case and Snr Amaral continues to think so to the point of jeopardising his own health and future is it any wonder why Mr and Mrs McCann, and or their friends declined the invitation of a reconstruction because in reality it would be next to useless.
It’s quite clear that some people don’t share this point of view and have suggested that the reconstruction was necessary to query statements and timelines. However it is my belief that in this particular case it wouldn’t have highlighted anything new or indeed, as some firmly believe with a religious fervor, that it would be proof positive of the McCanns involvement in a crime relating to Madeleine’s disappearance.
The statements from those in the immediate area were closely considered and scrutinised, in fact as I understand the Grange review team did exactly that for some considerable time. Questioning the timeline in this way and additionally firing off questions like “where was Gerry at so and so a time” really are granular issues. If one goes close enough to something then of course holes can be picked in almost anything. Good case in point is that no one I hope doubts the Yorkshire Ripper was Peter Sutcliffe yet if you look closely at some witness testimony you can drive a bus through the holes and inconsistencies. (If anyone doesn’t believe it was Sutcliffe then please don’t bother telling me about it, I’ve heard them all from it was a copper that framed him right up to former Gestapo head Heinrich Müller harvesting body parts)
Whatever the reason they decided to turn down the invitation to the reconstruction was, from my perspective it was probably for the best.
Sutcliffe, totally off topic but anyway, I am friends with the son of one of Sutcliffe's victims. The poor guy had horrible start to life, but he has turned out to be a pretty decent guy.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 01:35:38 PM
Or alternatively the suspects could be trying to frustrate the investigation for their own nefarious benefit, which is an equally (if not more so) vaild option that the police also have to look at.
How are the police supposed to know which is the correct choice without investigating all suspects properly? Do you think the police should have ruled the McCann's out simply because they told the PJ they were innocent??
You do accept i presume that people lie, and that it is the police's job to cut through the lies relating to the investigation?
That is why generally they look to supporting evidence and collect witness statements to collaborate accounts as they did with the McCanns. I understand your point that people do lie to evade being suspected however they did cooperate with the initial investigation, they were in contact with the police however once it became clear to them that they were still suspected even though they had cast iron alibis it’s not hard to understand why they would turn down the invitation for a reconstruction.
To be fair to them and the PJ there could have been a whole host of mitigating circumstances as to why a reconstruction was pointless, I can only point out the obvious one which is that it served no purpose in bringing Madeleine home. The only advantage I can possibly see is if they had done one it would have silenced the conspiracy theorists until they found something else to latch on to and throw back in their faces. The nature of any accomplished and polished conspiracy theorist is the ability to go in at a granular level and study something in total isolation and to the of contrary supporting evidence in which to hatch a new myth.
The best they could achieve from the reconstruction was determining what possible route the person who took Madeleine went based on view points and line of sight. Other than that, it’s a futile exercise I reckon.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 01:37:35 PM
The point I'm making is that being constantly accused of something that you didn't do is bound to demoralise even the strongest person. Given that this was the case and Snr Amaral continues to think so to the point of jeopardising his own health and future is it any wonder why Mr and Mrs McCann, and or their friends declined the invitation of a reconstruction because in reality it would be next to useless.
It’s quite clear that some people don’t share this point of view and have suggested that the reconstruction was necessary to query statements and timelines. However it is my belief that in this particular case it wouldn’t have highlighted anything new or indeed, as some firmly believe with a religious fervor, that it would be proof positive of the McCanns involvement in a crime relating to Madeleine’s disappearance.
The statements from those in the immediate area were closely considered and scrutinised, in fact as I understand the Grange review team did exactly that for some considerable time. Questioning the timeline in this way and additionally firing off questions like “where was Gerry at so and so a time” really are granular issues. If one goes close enough to something then of course holes can be picked in almost anything. Good case in point is that no one I hope doubts the Yorkshire Ripper was Peter Sutcliffe yet if you look closely at some witness testimony you can drive a bus through the holes and inconsistencies. (If anyone doesn’t believe it was Sutcliffe then please don’t bother telling me about it, I’ve heard them all from it was a copper that framed him right up to former Gestapo head Heinrich Müller harvesting body parts)
Whatever the reason they decided to turn down the invitation to the reconstruction was, from my perspective it was probably for the best.
Amaral was long gone by the time a reconstruction was proposed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 02:16:50 PM
But what he says is true John. The police confirmed to JT that people do have different recollections of the same incident. It's commonplace.
I once saw a TV programme showing how vastly different a number of 'eye-witnesses' recollections of the same incident - (which unknown to them was 'staged') were - when they were asked to describe what they had seen. The 'differences' in their individual memories of the event were immense.
Not to the extent they couldn't even remember what side of the road they were on the next day.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 26, 2014, 02:35:09 PM
Impossible to say as each case is different involving different numbers of witnesses. The more witnesses the more discrepancies are likely to occur.
IMO In this case the police would only be interested in establishing whether or not JT walked up that road and saw a man carrying a child. The fact that she could describe Jez and Gerry talking - and knew Jez had a buggy with him would be far more pertinent to the police in respect of that imo - rather than the exact spot they were standing at the time she saw them.
(must dash now)
It quite simple really. If she couldn't even remember which side of the road Gerry and Jez were on do you think they would believe she saw an abductor 10 seconds later? It is all to do with credibility.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 03:03:13 PM
That is why generally they look to supporting evidence and collect witness statements to collaborate accounts as they did with the McCanns.
And those accounts did not corroborate though did they? Look at the number of discrepancies and the changes of stories, the shoe horning in of Bundleman and the Payne visit. Look at the Rog interviews and the men's changed timings for when they left the tennis match. It was a whole series of huge contradictions and apparent collusion which necessitated further more detailed investigation.
I understand your point that people do lie to evade being suspected however they did cooperate with the initial investigation, they were in contact with the police however once it became clear to them that they were still suspected even though they had cast iron alibis it’s not hard to understand why they would turn down the invitation for a reconstruction.
What cast iron albi's? There are none that removes the possibility of involvement. What co-operation? They gave witness statements which didn't tally with the evidence indications or each other.
To be fair to them and the PJ there could have been a whole host of mitigating circumstances as to why a reconstruction was pointless, I can only point out the obvious one which is that it served no purpose in bringing Madeleine home. The only advantage I can possibly see is if they had done one it would have silenced the conspiracy theorists until they found something else to latch on to and throw back in their faces. The nature of any accomplished and polished conspiracy theorist is the ability to go in at a granular level and study something in total isolation and to the of contrary supporting evidence in which to hatch a new myth.
No it wasn't pointless it was trying to see if what the parents claim happened could physically happen. If it could not then they needed to explain why their statements didn't tally with the reality.
It's nothing to do with conspiracy theories, it's to do with making sense of the accounts of the last people and witnesses to see the missing child and to see how those accounts tallied with the evidence collected and if they didn't tally for those witnesses, like any witness in any investigation in the world, to explain why their accounts did not match up to what was shown in the reconstruction.
The best they could achieve from the reconstruction was determining what possible route the person who took Madeleine went based on view points and line of sight. Other than that, it’s a futile exercise I reckon.
No you have also made the mistake of presuming the reconstruction was to be taken from the point after the parents had been ruled out. \They hadn't, they had to rule themselves out by showing the PJ that their sworn statements were viable and corr3ect in real world conditions.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 03:15:35 PM
And those accounts did not corroborate though did they?
I think the concise answer here is yes. In evidence to substantiate this claim is the fact that the witness statements have now been scrutnised and the McCanns have been cleared. These are the same statrements given at the time, the contain the same information. So yes, they did corroborate to the extent of shifting focus away from Madeleine's parents. What I would question is how these statements were initially handled and interpreted because the information hasn't changed, only the detectives reviewing it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 26, 2014, 03:28:28 PM
I think the concise answer here is yes. In evidence to substantiate this claim is the fact that the witness statements have now been scrutnised and the McCanns have been cleared. These are the same statrements given at the time, the contain the same information. So yes, they did corroborate to the extent of shifting focus away from Madeleine's parents. What I would question is how these statements were initially handled and interpreted because the information hasn't changed, only the detectives reviewing it.
That is working solely on the basis of a statement several months ago saying the parents were not suspects or persons of interest. Do you accept that suspects can change during the course of an investigation? Do you accept that whilst saying that at that time that position can change at anytime in the future? Do you understand that saying someone isn't a suspect does not automatically mean they will never be a suspect again as the investigation progresses? Can you understand whether they were suspects or not AR sought to say it?
You have no evidence of how they have analysed the statements and what their files show because they haven't been divulged. The PJ files are there for all the world to see and I don't need SY to tell they don't add up.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: The Singularity on March 26, 2014, 04:00:00 PM
The PJ files are there for all the world to see and I don't need SY to tell they don't add up.
If they don't add up why didn't the PJ act on this? Why aren't either Mr or Mrs McCann or both languishing in some Portuguese prison?
Simple answer is the statements stood up to scrutiny and the parents were no longer suspected of Madeleine's disappearance. I suspect you don't "need" Scotland Yard to tell you they don't add up because it is contrary to your entrenched beliefs.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 04:06:53 PM
That is working solely on the basis of a statement several months ago saying the parents were not suspects or persons of interest. Do you accept that suspects can change during the course of an investigation? Do you accept that whilst saying that at that time that position can change at anytime in the future? Do you understand that saying someone isn't a suspect does not automatically mean they will never be a suspect again as the investigation progresses? Can you understand whether they were suspects or not AR sought to say it?
You have no evidence of how they have analysed the statements and what their files show because they haven't been divulged. The PJ files are there for all the world to see and I don't need SY to tell they don't add up.
Sy have seen the Portuguese files...the McCanns are not suspects...it follows that SY see nothing in the files of concern re the McCanns .All the discrepancies can be explained by errors in translation
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 04:09:39 PM
And those accounts did not corroborate though did they? Look at the number of discrepancies and the changes of stories, the shoe horning in of Bundleman and the Payne visit. Look at the Rog interviews and the men's changed timings for when they left the tennis match. It was a whole series of huge contradictions and apparent collusion which necessitated further more detailed investigation.
What cast iron albi's? There are none that removes the possibility of involvement. What co-operation? They gave witness statements which didn't tally with the evidence indications or each other.
No it wasn't pointless it was trying to see if what the parents claim happened could physically happen. If it could not then they needed to explain why their statements didn't tally with the reality.
It's nothing to do with conspiracy theories, it's to do with making sense of the accounts of the last people and witnesses to see the missing child and to see how those accounts tallied with the evidence collected and if they didn't tally for those witnesses, like any witness in any investigation in the world, to explain why their accounts did not match up to what was shown in the reconstruction.
No you have also made the mistake of presuming the reconstruction was to be taken from the point after the parents had been ruled out. \They hadn't, they had to rule themselves out by showing the PJ that their sworn statements were viable and corr3ect in real world conditions.
It was just an attempt to find something to implicate the McCanns ....nothing to do with trying to find maddie...the McCanns and the tapas would have been crazy to have gone back
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 04:18:23 PM
Sy have seen the Portuguese files...the McCanns are not suspects...it follows that SY see nothing in the files of concern re the McCanns .All the discrepancies can be explained by errors in translation
[/b]
In your mind, certainly.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 04:22:39 PM
Well, they would have been foolish to have said it before.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lace on March 26, 2014, 05:04:13 PM
Why wasn't the reconstruction done when the McCann's were in Portugal? Amaral says something about the tourists, but wouldn't there have been tourists in the May when they wanted the McCann's to go back?
There is talk about the McCann's imagining that the Portuguese police were going to stich them up if they went back for a reconstruction, but remember the McCann's and friends sought the advice of their lawyers who would have no doubt have experience to inform them as to whether it was wise to go back or not, it wasn't as someone said a vote on what to do.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 05:07:15 PM
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on March 26, 2014, 05:34:07 PM
However, the last thing we would ever want is a standoff between us and the PJ, something that would only delight and benefit the press. Kate and Gerry desperately need the cloud of suspicion over them to be emphatically lifted, and the PJ need to complete their investigation. We also appreciate the legal obstacles to removing Kate and Gerry's arguido status, but would request that prior to us agreeing to the re-enactment the PJ:
• publicly dispels the damaging and disturbing lies churned out by the Portuguese press regarding alleged changes to statements, re-interviews or alleged lack of co-operation.
• publicly states there are "no suspicions over [us] regarding the commission of any criminal acts." This in no way compromises judicial secrecy.
This in no way compromises judicial secrecy. But without some official intervention on their part, a return for the re-enactment seems little more than a perfect opportunity for the press to speculate and libel us all once again.
We are very keen to help an investigation aiming to establish what's happened to Madeleine, but have no desire to assist one that seeks only to damn our innocent friends. By actively restoring the focus on Madeleine and robustly dispelling the countless speculation, the PJ can expect our continued co- operation.
Yours sincerely,
Russell O'Brien & Jane Tanner
Amazing to say the least.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
Sorry for posting the link again admin but just in case some one accuses me of fabrication.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 05:38:06 PM
However, the last thing we would ever want is a standoff between us and the PJ, something that would only delight and benefit the press. Kate and Gerry desperately need the cloud of suspicion over them to be emphatically lifted, and the PJ need to complete their investigation. We also appreciate the legal obstacles to removing Kate and Gerry's arguido status, but would request that prior to us agreeing to the re-enactment the PJ:
• publicly dispels the damaging and disturbing lies churned out by the Portuguese press regarding alleged changes to statements, re-interviews or alleged lack of co-operation.
• publicly states there are "no suspicions over [us] regarding the commission of any criminal acts." This in no way compromises judicial secrecy.
This in no way compromises judicial secrecy. But without some official intervention on their part, a return for the re-enactment seems little more than a perfect opportunity for the press to speculate and libel us all once again.
We are very keen to help an investigation aiming to establish what's happened to Madeleine, but have no desire to assist one that seeks only to damn our innocent friends. By actively restoring the focus on Madeleine and robustly dispelling the countless speculation, the PJ can expect our continued co- operation.
Yours sincerely,
Russell O'Brien & Jane Tanner
Amazing to say the least.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
Sorry for posting the link again admin but just in case some one accuses me of fabrication.
absolutely right..they did the right thing
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 05:38:21 PM
Im sure its irritating to you and that's why you continue to respond to try and downplay this IMPORTANT fact
No importance to me at all, nor am I playing it down. Indeed, if you read back, you will notice I am agreeing with you that that is what they said.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on March 26, 2014, 05:54:50 PM
This ridiculous notion that can you 'solve' a crime by reconstituting (the Portuguese term that more accurately reflects what reconstitutions (distinct from reconstructions) seek to do, is one we must hope, the PJ will quietly drop, in the fullness of time.
I have used the example before, but am happy to repeat it.
Witnesses to the summary execution of innocent Brazilian man, Jean-Paul de Menezes at Stockwell London Underground Station, London, "saw" a man wearing a heavy-weight, knee-length coat with leads trailing underneath, who pole-vaulted barriers, sprinted onto the train and was then pinned to the floor and shot dead.
The truth, revealed by CCTV video: he was wearing a light weight denim jacket, made a leisurely entrance onto the platform, stopped to buy a paper, boarded the train in an orderly way, was pounced on, pinned to the floor and shot dead.
I don't suppose those witnesses were lying. But they sure as hell were wrong.
What price a reconstruction/reconstitution of revealing the truth?
Nil, I would suggest.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 06:03:03 PM
This ridiculous notion that can you 'solve' a crime by reconstituting (the Portuguese term that more accurately reflects what reconstitutions (distinct from reconstructions) seek to do, is one we must hope, the PJ will quietly drop, in the fullness of time.
I have used the example before, but am happy to repeat it.
Witnesses to the summary execution of innocent Brazilian man, Jean-Paul de Menezes at Stockwell London Underground Station, London, "saw" a man wearing a heavy-weight, knee-length coat with leads trailing underneath, who pole-vaulted barriers, sprinted onto the train and was then pinned to the floor and shot dead.
The truth, revealed by CCTV video: he was wearing a light weight denim jacket, made a leisurely entrance onto the platform, stopped to buy a paper, boarded the train in an orderly way, was pounced on, pinned to the floor and shot dead.
I don't suppose those witnesses were lying. But they sure as hell were wrong.
What price a reconstruction/reconstitution of revealing the truth? Nil, I would suggest.
Which is why, of course, British police NEVER organise these construction @)(++(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 26, 2014, 06:10:07 PM
This ridiculous notion that can you 'solve' a crime by reconstituting (the Portuguese term that more accurately reflects what reconstitutions (distinct from reconstructions) seek to do, is one we must hope, the PJ will quietly drop, in the fullness of time.
I have used the example before, but am happy to repeat it.
Witnesses to the summary execution of innocent Brazilian man, Jean-Paul de Menezes at Stockwell London Underground Station, London, "saw" a man wearing a heavy-weight, knee-length coat with leads trailing underneath, who pole-vaulted barriers, sprinted onto the train and was then pinned to the floor and shot dead.
The truth, revealed by CCTV video: he was wearing a light weight denim jacket, made a leisurely entrance onto the platform, stopped to buy a paper, boarded the train in an orderly way, was pounced on, pinned to the floor and shot dead.
I don't suppose those witnesses were lying. But they sure as hell were wrong.
What price a reconstruction/reconstitution of revealing the truth?
Nil, I would suggest.
If your toddler fell into a river, would you go in after them, or would you hang around on the bank cause you might drown too?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 06:17:47 PM
In this analogy they did. They wouldn't put themselves at risk while their child was, in their expressed beliefs, in the clutches of paedophiles.
you are assuming wrongly that the reconstruction by the keystone cops was going to help find maddie ...it wasn't...it was simply to try and implicate the mccanns...why is it that neither force think it necessary now
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on March 26, 2014, 06:26:15 PM
you are assuming wrongly that the reconstruction by the keystone cops was going to help find maddie ...it wasn't...it was simply to try and implicate the mccanns...why is it that neither force think it necessary now
Yep!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 06:31:00 PM
you are assuming wrongly that the reconstruction by the keystone cops was going to help find maddie ...it wasn't...it was simply to try and implicate the mccanns...why is it that neither force think it necessary now
Not really the purpose of reconstructions is to determine a true sequence of events with the aim of apprehending the culprit.
No murdered person has been brought back to life by a reconstruction, nor a rape undone, but plenty of perpetrators are caught because of one.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 06:32:57 PM
You mean you are in agreement with principle of "clear us and our mates then we will turn up"? Well any doubts I ever had have been totally dispelled. You will say anything in your sycophantic support of the McCanns.
You never had any doubts...its simple...all the McCann doubters say they should have gone back...and all those who believe the McCanns think they should not have gone...now who would have expected that.
I support the McCanns having looked at all the evidence...perhaps I just have better analytical skills than you
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 06:34:59 PM
Not really the purpose of reconstructions, which is to determine a true sequence of events with the aim of apprehending the culprit.
No murdered person has been brought back to life by a reconstruction, nor a rape undone, but plenty of perpetrators are caught because of one.
According to amamral the pj knew who had dun it...remember...so the intention certainly was to apprehend the culprits...just had to get them back in Portugal first
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 26, 2014, 06:37:49 PM
Was Amaral even in charge when the request for all the Tapas to return to Portugal was made ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 06:40:15 PM
No but as you will remember amaral said everyone agreed with him...not another lie was it
I wouldn't know, but I imagine he could only be talking about a period up until he left the Police service. Whatever the thinking was after that time, he wouldn't be party to it, would he ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on March 26, 2014, 06:43:30 PM
You never had any doubts...its simple...all the McCann doubters say they should have gone back...and all those who believe the McCanns think they should not have gone...now who would have expected that.
I support the McCanns having looked at all the evidence...perhaps I just have better analytical skills than you
You ducked my question. Do you agree that it is in order for witnesses to dictate to the police that they should be cleared of any suspicion before they turned up for an event whose sole purpose was to determine veracity of statements? Try answering the question as a principle without any names attached.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 26, 2014, 06:57:03 PM
you are assuming wrongly that the reconstruction by the keystone cops was going to help find maddie ...it wasn't...it was simply to try and implicate the mccanns...why is it that neither force think it necessary now
You're assuming wrongly the the reconstruction was to implicate the Mccanns....It wasn't. It was to help find Madeleine.
There, fixed it for you!
The fact of the matter is that neither you nor I am aware of the motivation behind the reconstitution. If it were my child, I would've taken the chance to A, help eliminate myself from the enquiry and B, possibly find my child.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 06:57:58 PM
You ducked my question. Do you agree that it is in order for witnesses to dictate to the police that they should be cleared of any suspicion before they turned up for an event whose sole purpose was to determine veracity of statements? Try answering the question as a principle without any names attached.
Quite happy to answer the question even though its totally pointless...witnesses have the right to behave exactly as they like within the law...the pj had already lied to the Mccanns.....the tapas didnt trust the pj and in my view were quite right not to....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 26, 2014, 06:59:51 PM
You're assuming wrongly the the reconstruction was to implicate the Mccanns....It wasn't. It was to help find Madeleine.
There, fixed it for you!
The fact of the matter is that neither you nor I am aware of the motivation behind the reconstitution. If it were my child, I would've taken the chance to A, help eliminate myself from the enquiry and B, possibly find my child.
And you may well have found yourself held on remand for 12 months and found guilty of a crime you did not commit...more fool you
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 26, 2014, 07:06:42 PM
Quite happy to answer the question even though its totally pointless...witnesses have the right to behave exactly as they like within the law...the pj had already lied to the Mccanns.....the tapas didnt trust the pj and in my view were quite right not to....
You are still ducking the question of principle.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 11:19:08 AM
The fact that they were made Arguidos in the first place would seem to contradict that opinion.
Being made Arguido is not the same as being sent to prison! Evidence would have been presented to a court and they would have had to have been found guilty.
It's hardly being "fitted up".
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2014, 12:43:05 PM
Being made Arguido is not the same as being sent to prison! Evidence would have been presented to a court and they would have had to have been found guilty.
It's hardly being "fitted up".
And the best lawyers that other people's money could buy would have ensured that no such thing would have happened
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 27, 2014, 03:43:12 PM
If they had nothing to hide they should have participated in the reconstitution if only to clarify the many discrepancies in the statements. The fact that they jointly colluded not to go back speaks volumes and will for ever be a dark cloud over them.
They might not be suspects at this moment in time but if Madeleine is found dead near PdL that could instantly change. The mystery over Smithman could very well become very relevant at that point.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 06:47:11 PM
If they had nothing to hide they should have participated in the reconstitution if only to clarify the many discrepancies in the statements. The fact that they jointly colluded not to go back speaks volumes and will for ever be a dark cloud over them.
They might not be suspects at this moment in time but if Madeleine is found dead near PdL that could instantly change. The mystery over Smithman could very well become very relevant at that point.
My feeling is that they feared a miscarriage of justice if they returned...what other motive could there be
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 27, 2014, 07:04:47 PM
Put 'fear of miscarriage of justice' in one side of the scales and 'four year old daughter in clutches of paedophiles' in the other.
What would you do?
going back woud not have made a scrap of difference to the botched investigation....getting SY to investigate is the best option...well done Kate and Gerry
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 27, 2014, 07:39:53 PM
They tried and it makes sense to assume they couldn't make head nor tail of it, which is why they requested the witnesses to partake so their actions could be tested in real world conditions.
From one of Rebelo's emails regarding the reconstruction:
Quote
The re-enactment will only turn out to be efficient if performed by the participants in the events, once the information provided by the same participants needs to be tested and efficiently compared on-site, and that can only be achieved by means of their own performances. Thus, the possibility of using actors has to be put aside
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 07:41:57 PM
They tried and it makes sense to assume they couldn't make head nor tail of it, which is why they requested the witnesses to partake so their actions could be tested in real world conditions.
From one of Rebelo's emails regarding the reconstruction:
Going back would not have made a scrap of difference imo...and as SY haven't asked for one....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 27, 2014, 07:44:15 PM
going back woud not have made a scrap of difference to the botched investigation....getting SY to investigate is the best option...well done Kate and Gerry
Ignoring the Team McCann Pravda style tub thumping for the moment it would have made one significant difference to the investigation....
It would have allowed the official police investigation into THEIR missing daughter to remain active and open.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 27, 2014, 07:48:44 PM
Going back would not have made a scrap of difference imo...and as SY haven't asked for one....
We know your opinion, doesn't make it fact or right does it? Rebelo explained quite clearly and honestly why his investigation wanted the reconstruction and most right minded folk can understand why it would be Important to try and clarify their statements by way of re-enacting their claimed events of the evening in order to move the investigation forward.
No SY haven't asked for one YET.
Who knows what they will ask for when all the other leads are exhausted.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 27, 2014, 07:57:50 PM
going back woud not have made a scrap of difference to the botched investigation....getting SY to investigate is the best option...well done Kate and Gerry
We don't know what difference it might have made. You categorically claiming that it wouldn't make any, is as useful as me categorically claiming it would've resulting in the safe return of Madeline Mccann.
The point I'm making is that there was at least a chance of it moving the investigation forward. As a mother, I wouldn't have missed that chance, no matter how slime it was. I couldn't have and still been able to look myself in the mirror every morning.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 27, 2014, 07:58:04 PM
going back woud not have made a scrap of difference to the botched investigation....getting SY to investigate is the best option...well done Kate and Gerry
Do you really think SY are going to solve this ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on March 27, 2014, 08:00:53 PM
Fundamentally T7 stuck two fingers up at the Police in 2 countries. "Yeah we'll go over there chief but we and our mates must be absolved of all potential crimes before we go"."Oh! and remove the arguido status from our mates or all bets are off" Well not much reading between the lines is required there. Justified by the sycophants solely on the basis that the Portuguese police force is is bent. Now were you squeaky clean and really wanted to find a missing child.......................it is becoming tedious.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 08:13:20 PM
Fundamentally T7 stuck two fingers up at the Police in 2 countries. "Yeah we'll go over there chief but we and our mates must be absolved of all potential crimes before we go"."Oh! and remove the arguido status from our mates or all bets are off" Well not much reading between the lines is required there. Justified by the sycophants solely on the basis that the Portuguese police force is is bent. Now were you squeaky clean and really wanted to find a missing child.......................it is becoming tedious.
We are all fully aware how much you dislike the McCanns...as regards the pj being bent...perhaps they had read about amaral and the cipriano case
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 27, 2014, 08:17:05 PM
going back woud not have made a scrap of difference to the botched investigation....getting SY to investigate is the best option...well done Kate and Gerry
'well done Kate and Gerry'
For what exactly ???
8-)(--) 8-)(--) 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on March 27, 2014, 08:26:19 PM
We are all fully aware how much you dislike the McCanns...as regards the pj being bent...perhaps they had read about amaral and the cipriano case
When did I say I dislike the McCanns? Another gross assumption on your part. What has the Cipriano case to do with the price of kippers? It was Rebelo who was honcho at the time. And however you dress it up T7 and the McCanns were a no show for the reconstitution; see what the archiving process had to say about that.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 27, 2014, 08:41:55 PM
When did I say I dislike the McCanns? Another gross assumption on your part. What has the Cipriano case to do with the price of kippers? It was Rebelo who was honcho at the time. And however you dress it up T7 and the McCanns were a no show for the reconstitution; see what the archiving process had to say about that.
none of this is of the slightest importance
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 27, 2014, 08:45:25 PM
going back woud not have made a scrap of difference to the botched investigation....getting SY to investigate is the best option...well done Kate and Gerry
SY are impotent in as far as a proper investigation is concerned in Portugal. They are hamstrung by red tape, the Portuguese call the tune, they hold all the cards. That suits some people just fine though if the truth be known.
The tapas-9 refusal to cooperate with the investigation under Rebelo only served to underline the view of many people in the UK that they had something to hide. This was a missing child inquiry after all, it wasn't a nicked wallet or camera. Nobody seems able to give an answer to my question, where was Madeleine in all of this while they were busily saving their own miserable skins?
Bottom line. Nothing to Hide > Nothing to Worry About!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 28, 2014, 10:47:53 AM
SY are impotent in as far as a proper investigation is concerned in Portugal. They are hamstrung by red tape, the Portuguese call the tune, they hold all the cards. That suits some people just fine though if the truth be known.
The tapas-9 refusal to cooperate with the investigation under Rebelo only served to underline the view of many people in the UK that they had something to hide. This was a missing child inquiry after all, it wasn't a nicked wallet or camera. Nobody seems able to give an answer to my question, where was Madeleine in all of this while they were busily saving their own miserable skins?
Bottom line. Nothing to Hide > Nothing to Worry About!
In a normal world, I'd agree with you, John. But I think that you are discounting the effect of a constant drip of PJ leaks to the tabloids. What if this had happened to your family? Imagine if you and others were supposed to go back to a country in such circumstances? In an imaginary case, to somehow prove that you hadn't collectively committed an armed robbery of a bank with hostages and whatever else, with no cctv to prove that you weren't there, or even worse in the case of a missing child? You could be placed in various positions near the bank and be instructed to perform certain actions and it would have hit the headlines all over again.
I'm not sure that I'd have gone back either if I had come to the conclusion that it was more about stitching someone up than finding out what had actually happened. With hindsight, I really don't think that Rebelo or the PM were doing anything more than box-ticking, but they couldn't have felt confident about that at the time.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 28, 2014, 11:31:50 AM
The truth never changes with the passage of time Carana. The tapas-9 had a moral responsibility to cooperate with the new Portuguese investigation under Rebelo, it was not for them to question the thinking behind it. Police don't undertake criminal inquiries just for the hell of it.
What does surprise me however is why the Portuguese climb down? Why were the tapas-9 not compelled to attend a reconstitution of events which allegedly occurred on 3 May 2007?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on March 28, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
The truth never changes with the passage of time Carana. The tapas-9 had a moral responsibility to cooperate with the new Portuguese investigation under Rebelo, it was not for them to question the thinking behind it. Police don't undertake criminal inquiries just for the hell of it.
What does surprise me however is why the Portuguese climb down? Why were the tapas-9 not compelled to attend a reconstitution of events on 3 May 2007?
You haven't answered my question. Would you have willingly gone back in the imaginary situation that I mentioned before in the knowledge that you, your family and friends had been widely accused in the press of having been involved, with no updates on what was going on in police-think?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2014, 11:46:15 AM
You haven't answered my question. Would you have willingly gone back in the imaginary situation that I mentioned before in the knowledge that you, your family and friends had been widely accused in the press of having been involved, with no updates on what was going on in police-think?
I don't consider it matters what the press were saying - it is the judiciary that was important and there was no evidence that any of the group would be charged with anything.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on March 28, 2014, 12:09:00 PM
You haven't answered my question. Would you have willingly gone back in the imaginary situation that I mentioned before in the knowledge that you, your family and friends had been widely accused in the press of having been involved, with no updates on what was going on in police-think?
I think you'll find it was the McCann's - out of self preservation- who turned the case into a media circus in the first instance.
The PJ, in my opinion, leaked to try and redress the negative press that Team McCann was spitting out.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on March 28, 2014, 12:22:56 PM
The truth never changes with the passage of time Carana. The tapas-9 had a moral responsibility to cooperate with the new Portuguese investigation under Rebelo, it was not for them to question the thinking behind it. Police don't undertake criminal inquiries just for the hell of it.
What does surprise me however is why the Portuguese climb down? Why were the tapas-9 not compelled to attend a reconstitution of events which allegedly occurred on 3 May 2007?
To question the thinking behind a "reconstitution", distinct from a "reconstruction", was unquestionably right.
"Reconstructions" are not allowed in Portugal ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2014, 12:42:14 PM
The truth never changes with the passage of time Carana. The tapas-9 had a moral responsibility to cooperate with the new Portuguese investigation under Rebelo, it was not for them to question the thinking behind it. Police don't undertake criminal inquiries just for the hell of it.
What does surprise me however is why the Portuguese climb down? Why were the tapas-9 not compelled to attend a reconstitution of events which allegedly occurred on 3 May 2007?
Does a police reconstruction have the kind of legal status that it could compel would-be participants to participate in?
It is not the same thing as a court ordering someone to attend a hearing.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 28, 2014, 04:11:42 PM
They should have been made to go instead of using lawyers. It's not for them to decide 8-)(--) You couldn't make this shit up! That NWA song springs to mind.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2014, 04:16:38 PM
I always found it rather strange that Leicester police also appeared to be advising them not to go - strange behaviour, as you would expect the LP to support their Portuguese colleagues, rather than work against them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 28, 2014, 04:32:26 PM
LP were a disgrace and politicians getting involved. They better stay out of SY's inquiry.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on March 28, 2014, 05:02:25 PM
As far as I am aware....in the early days the requested a reconstruction but were refused
What they wanted was a 'Crimewatch' type reconstruction to be televised
Until now, I have never seen anyone make the claim that Kate and Gerry McCann wanted to 'take part' in a reconstruction themselves, in order to assist the police ... and that the police turned down their offer
Have you evidence for that claim ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 28, 2014, 06:30:27 PM
What they wanted was a 'Crimewatch' type reconstruction to be televised
Until now, I have never seen anyone make the claim that Kate and Gerry McCann wanted to 'take part' in a reconstruction themselves, in order to assist the police ... and that the police turned down their offer
Have you evidence for that claim ?
Heavens forbid they should want to do anything like that.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 28, 2014, 06:39:30 PM
What they wanted was a 'Crimewatch' type reconstruction to be televised
Until now, I have never seen anyone make the claim that Kate and Gerry McCann wanted to 'take part' in a reconstruction themselves, in order to assist the police ... and that the police turned down their offer
Have you evidence for that claim ?
yes bit I cant remember where I heard it
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2014, 07:34:53 PM
Heavens forbid they should want to do anything like that.
Indeed.
Naughty words/phrases omitted from Crimewatch, such as :
Going out to wine and dine;
Leaving their children in an unlocked apartment, with infrequent checks ;
No forensic proof of an abduction;
No mention of the dogs.
and the list goes on.........................................
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on March 28, 2014, 07:35:57 PM
"British consul Bill Henderson and Ambassador John Buck were visiting us on a fairly regular basis and we were seeing the Leicestershire FLOs every day. The flow of information, however, was slow and limited. The Portuguese police were divulging very little to the British police and vetoing many of their suggestions – bringing out specialist dogs, for example, or staging a reconstruction."
"On Monday 4 June, we recorded an appeal to be screened the following evening on Crimewatch, the long-running BBC programme that has a good track record in helping the police to solve crimes using information supplied by the public. Our appeal was aimed in particular at any British holidaymakers who had been in the Algarve at the time of Madeleine’s abduction.
Frustratingly, Crimewatch was not allowed to film a reconstruction of the abduction. This was something we had wanted from the beginning, in the hope that it would encourage potential witnesses to come forward. In Britain the police often broadcast reconstructions through programmes likeCrimewatch and news channels, but we were told that this was not possible in either Portugal or Britain because of the judicial secrecy law. We were able to show a pair of pyjamas like Madeleine’s on the programme, which was particularly important since at the time it had been incorrectly stated in some press reports that her pyjamas were white."
"In the spring of 2008 – almost a year after Madeleine was last seen – the PJ decided they wanted to conduct a re-enactment in Praia da Luz of the night of 3 May 2007. The participants required were Gerry, me, Fiona, Dave, Jane, Russ, Rachael, Matt, Dianne and Jes Wilkins, to whom Gerry chatted in the street that night just after his last glimpse of Madeleine. They weren’t interested in using actors or stand-ins. So either everyone agreed or the reconstruction wouldn’t go ahead."
Madeleine by Kate McCann
Unless everyone agreed it wouldn't go ahead? That is astonishing. Who was running this farce - the Tapas 9 or the police?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on March 28, 2014, 07:38:13 PM
"British consul Bill Henderson and Ambassador John Buck were visiting us on a fairly regular basis and we were seeing the Leicestershire FLOs every day. The flow of information, however, was slow and limited. The Portuguese police were divulging very little to the British police and vetoing many of their suggestions – bringing out specialist dogs, for example, or staging a reconstruction."
"On Monday 4 June, we recorded an appeal to be screened the following evening on Crimewatch, the long-running BBC programme that has a good track record in helping the police to solve crimes using information supplied by the public. Our appeal was aimed in particular at any British holidaymakers who had been in the Algarve at the time of Madeleine’s abduction.
Frustratingly, Crimewatch was not allowed to film a reconstruction of the abduction. This was something we had wanted from the beginning, in the hope that it would encourage potential witnesses to come forward. In Britain the police often broadcast reconstructions through programmes likeCrimewatch and news channels, but we were told that this was not possible in either Portugal or Britain because of the judicial secrecy law. We were able to show a pair of pyjamas like Madeleine’s on the programme, which was particularly important since at the time it had been incorrectly stated in some press reports that her pyjamas were white."
"In the spring of 2008 – almost a year after Madeleine was last seen – the PJ decided they wanted to conduct a re-enactment in Praia da Luz of the night of 3 May 2007. The participants required were Gerry, me, Fiona, Dave, Jane, Russ, Rachael, Matt, Dianne and Jes Wilkins, to whom Gerry chatted in the street that night just after his last glimpse of Madeleine. They weren’t interested in using actors or stand-ins. So either everyone agreed or the reconstruction wouldn’t go ahead."
Madeleine by Kate McCann
Unless everyone agreed it wouldn't go ahead? That is astonishing. Who was running this - the Tapas 9 or the police?
Tough question, that one.
Well it wasn't the Leicestershire Police running the show, so who does that leave ? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on March 29, 2014, 12:20:25 AM
What they wanted was a 'Crimewatch' type reconstruction to be televised
Until now, I have never seen anyone make the claim that Kate and Gerry McCann wanted to 'take part' in a reconstruction themselves, in order to assist the police ... and that the police turned down their offer
Have you evidence for that claim ?
I read that too, but I dont remember where I saw it either. We are talking nearly seven years ago ... but I definitely remember it. They asked for a reconstruction in the very early days and it was refused according to what i read..
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on March 30, 2014, 02:21:17 AM
You haven't answered my question. Would you have willingly gone back in the imaginary situation that I mentioned before in the knowledge that you, your family and friends had been widely accused in the press of having been involved, with no updates on what was going on in police-think?
YES YES YES every single time if I thought it would help recover my child. I would also not refuse to answer questions as Kate McCann did during the arguido interview. What on earth was she thinking?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on March 30, 2014, 02:29:40 AM
YES YES YES every single time if I thought it would help recover my child. I would also not refuse to answer questions as Kate McCann did during the arguido interview. What on earth was she thinking?
The Portuguese police appear to have believed that what she was thinking was that Madeleine could not BE 'recovered'
In that scenario, the only objective left would be that of self-preservation
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on March 30, 2014, 10:42:57 AM
A Portuguese-style reconstitution (distinct from reconstruction) should have no place in civilised society, let alone a criminal investigation ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on March 30, 2014, 11:29:51 AM
I would imagine that reconstitution is part of any inquisitorial legal system which includes most of Europe and Latin America. We could debate whether or not these countries are civilised of course; my point being however it is not restricted to Portugal. I am sure someone will correct me if if they think I am wrong, this site having more barrack room lawyers than Job had sores.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 30, 2014, 02:00:21 PM
The topic of this thread is 'The Reconstruction was abandoned because the tapas group refused to cooperate'.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on March 30, 2014, 02:04:02 PM
The topic of this thread is 'The Reconstruction was abandoned because the tapas group refused to cooperate'.
Thank goodness ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 30, 2014, 02:06:34 PM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
Seems quite clear, reading through and then scrolling down to near the foot of this series of communications, that one by one T9 decided following legal advice that they would not take part.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on March 30, 2014, 02:42:22 PM
Starting with Carlos Pinto de Abreu, the very lawyer who advised Kate NOT to answer those 48 questions which I rather doubt any UK police officer would have been permitted to do. There's a great deal being said about Kate's refusal to answer but the question is whether they should have been asked in the first place.
Are police not entitled to ask any questions they wish?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on March 30, 2014, 02:44:59 PM
Starting with Carlos Pinto de Abreu, the very lawyer who advised Kate NOT to answer those 48 questions which I rather doubt any UK police officer would have been permitted to do. There's a great deal being said about Kate's refusal to answer but the question is whether they should have been asked in the first place.
Though it seems clear from the files here that T9 consulted their own (presumably British) lawyers, who advised them not to take part.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on March 30, 2014, 06:35:59 PM
Starting with Carlos Pinto de Abreu, the very lawyer who advised Kate NOT to answer those 48 questions which I rather doubt any UK police officer would have been permitted to do. There's a great deal being said about Kate's refusal to answer but the question is whether they should have been asked in the first place.
It was why they were made arguidos. Just so they could be asked direct questions that could lead to incriminating answers.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on March 31, 2014, 06:35:37 PM
And interestingly just one week before the new law regarding arguidos came into effect. Somebody jumping the gun do you think?
In my view, more acse of acting before the rules changed. Because once the rules changed the PJ would have been unable to constitute the McCanns as arguidos (because of the evidential barrier). This would have limited thier ability to engage in a fishing expedition.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 31, 2014, 06:44:57 PM
So the thread should be titled...reconstruction cancelled due to legal advice given to tapas group...that's accurate
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on March 31, 2014, 06:47:02 PM
Starting with Carlos Pinto de Abreu, the very lawyer who advised Kate NOT to answer those 48 questions which I rather doubt any UK police officer would have been permitted to do. There's a great deal being said about Kate's refusal to answer but the question is whether they should have been asked in the first place.
I suspect that Portuguese law allows the asking of such questions to an arguido.
But emphatically and unreservedly, it does not to an informal witness.
That is the quid pro quo of the fact that informal witnesses cannot be legally represented. Neither can they be asked accusing questions, though they must answer all questions put to them (they cannot invoke the right of silence).
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2014, 06:48:34 PM
It was why they were made arguidos. Just so they could be asked direct questions that could lead to incriminating answers.
Arguidos have the right to refuse to answer questions without any blame to themselves for doing so.
It's a potty system. If a witness refuses to answer questions they are made Arguidos and don't have to answer questions. No incriminating answers. End of interrogation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 31, 2014, 06:51:26 PM
Arguidos have the right to refuse to answer questions without any blame to themselves for doing so.
It's a potty system. If a witness refuses to answer questions they are made Arguidos and don't have to answer questions. No incriminating answers. End of interrogation.
yes the PJ made them arguido...giving them the right to silence...then whinged when they used it...bizarre
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on March 31, 2014, 06:52:22 PM
And interestingly just one week before the new law regarding arguidos came into effect. Somebody jumping the gun do you think?
Someone thought he had The McCanns over a barrel, but he somehow failed to realise that The McCanns could be asked no more questions. Very hasty. In My Opinion. The McCanns couldn't even be subjected to Rogatory Interviews.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on March 31, 2014, 08:42:49 PM
Someone thought he had The McCanns over a barrel, but he somehow failed to realise that The McCanns could be asked no more questions. Very hasty. In My Opinion. The McCanns couldn't even be subjected to Rogatory Interviews.
They could be asked questions, they could just refuse to answer them. The PJ might have assumed that since it was their child at stake, they'd want to help.....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on March 31, 2014, 09:13:13 PM
They could be asked questions, they could just refuse to answer them. The PJ might have assumed that since it was their child at stake, they'd want to help.....
If the questions were designed to help find their daughter I am sure they would have answered...why do you think their solicitor told them not to answer
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Silkywhiskers on March 31, 2014, 11:33:43 PM
Email response from Rachael Oldfield
23 April 2008
Table of Contents: Vol XVI Page 4225
From : Rachael Oldfield (<email address quoted>) To : "Prior Stuart" Cc : "Matthew Oldfield" (<email address quoted>) Sent : Wednesday, April 23rd, 2008. Subject : Re : Re-enactment questions
Dear Stuart,
Thank you for your e-mail and the attached response from the PJ.
We remain unconvinced that this reconstruction is necessary. Our most significant question hasn't been answered, ie, how is it going to help find Madeleine/materially benefit the search for her?
Point 14 of the PJ's response says that they consider this re-enactment "highly important". Why is that? What are they really trying to get out of a reconstruction? Either they believe our version of the events of May 3rd 2007, or they don't. If they do, why the need for a reconstruction? If they don't believe us, do they want a reconstruction so we can convince them otherwise?
If the purpose of a reconstruction is to convince the Prosecutor to lift Kate and Gerry's arguido status then we would consider taking part in it. If it is to properly focus the investigation on the person seen carrying a child away from the apartment, again, we would consider taking part because that would help to find Madeleine.
We just need to be properly convinced of the reasons for doing a re-enactment.
We know you are the middle man in all this but we are sorry for more questions ! Please give either of us a call if you would like to talk through the above. Also if you feel this e-mail should be forwarded to the PJ please could you let us know.
Many thanks, Kind regards, Yours sincerely, Rachael and Matthew Oldfield. I have one word for the Tapas crew but it's not printable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on April 01, 2014, 02:08:51 AM
So the thread should be titled...reconstruction cancelled due to legal advice given to tapas group...that's accurate
Yes, a good point, davel. A better title would be that T9 were advised not to co-operate, as opposed to having refused.
Regardless of what motivations or issues may or may not have applied on the Portuguese side, surely it would be normal, understandable, and prudent, for lawyers representing T9 to have advised their clients not to have involved themselves in something like this. Even with the best of intentions on both sides there could have been many problems and risks.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pegasus on April 01, 2014, 02:21:32 AM
If you look at what happened to JT, falsely accused of fabicating a sighting, and even more unjust, the accusatons made in interview against MO, it is not surprising that they did not accept flying back to Portugal. They are innocent, and the question is: can Mr R see through the multiple incorrect bad-logic mis-deductions of the initial LP/Met/NPIA/PJ investigation?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on April 01, 2014, 05:14:32 PM
I have altered the thread title to take account of what we know occurred.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2014, 05:19:17 PM
If you look at what happened to JT, falsely accused of fabicating a sighting, and even more unjust, the accusatons made in interview against MO, it is not surprising that they did not accept flying back to Portugal. They are innocent, and the question is: can Mr R see through the multiple incorrect bad-logic mis-deductions of the initial LP/Met/NPIA/PJ investigation?
I wonder if Mr Redwood has sussed out that a passing burglar opened the shutters.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 05:20:06 PM
Oh Dear. So they didn't refuse to take part because The McCanns told them to. That puts a different light on things altogether.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on April 01, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
Oh Dear. So they didn't refuse to take part because The McCanns told them to. That puts a different light on things altogether.
You can't say that Eleanor. Only the tapas-9 and their lawyers know what went on. One thing is for sure however and that is not one of them went out of their way to assist a reconstitution. They should have been prepared to put all else on hold if it could in any way have helped to find Madeleine.
That for me was unforgivable!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on April 01, 2014, 05:26:49 PM
You can't say that Eleanor. Only the tapas-9 and their lawyers know what went on. One thing is for sure however and that is not one of them went out of their way to assist a reconstitution. They should have been prepared to put all else on hold if it could in any way have helped to find Madeleine.
That for me was unforgivable!
What? When it was obvious that this wasn't being done to help find Madeleine. That should have been done at the very beginning, not a year later.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on April 01, 2014, 05:32:20 PM
You can't say that Eleanor. Only the tapas-9 and their lawyers know what went on. One thing is for sure however and that is not one of them went out of their way to assist a reconstitution. They should have been prepared to put all else on hold if it could in any way have helped to find Madeleine.
That for me was unforgivable!
perhaps both they and their solicitors thought it would not help the search for Maddie...in fact it could have hindered the search
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2014, 05:37:18 PM
What was different that made Ameral wanting the reconstruction much later?
I think I know
No. They requested a crimewatch stlye reconstruction, with actors playing their parts. They did NOT ask for a reconstruction involving themselves and they can not have been refused something they did not ask for!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 07:22:02 PM
No. They requested a crimewatch stlye reconstruction, with actors playing their parts. They did NOT ask for a reconstruction involving themselves and they can not have been refused something they did not ask for!
Wrong. There were no English speaking actors in Portugal during the first couple of weeks. Only most of people who were actually involved.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 01, 2014, 07:25:36 PM
There is no evidence that the McCanns asked for a reconstruction in which they would take part
It is a myth
The McCanns would have been plain mad to have been willing to take part in a reonstitution; quite different from a reconstruction which, alone, stood any hope of advancing knowledge about what happened to Madeleine.
Sadly, the Portuguese don't do reconstructions, because their secrecy laws won't allow them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 07:32:18 PM
Wrong. There were no English speaking actors in Portugal during the first couple of weeks. Only most of people who were actually involved.
So can you provide some evidence of this much mentioned request to take part in a reconstrution then please? I have only ever seen it stated by you and Sadie.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 08:43:26 PM
So can you provide some evidence of this much mentioned request to take part in a reconstrution then please? I have only ever seen it stated by you and Sadie.
No, sorry, I don't do links. Everyone knows that. But since I am not much fussed about what you think, and I don't suppose that The McCanns are either, I can only suggest that you report me.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on April 01, 2014, 09:02:23 PM
Someone is going to produce proof of this eventually. In which case I shall expect your apology. To The McCanns, that is.
As you previously stated (and I completely agree with) the Mccanns couldn't give a toss about what I think or say, so I don't think an apology will be necessary.
If there is proof, why don't you produce it?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 09:06:28 PM
As you previously stated (and I completely agree with) the Mccanns couldn't give a toss about what I think or say, so I don't think an apology will be necessary.
If there is proof, why don't you produce it?
A. I don't know where to look amongst the welter of information, and B. The last time I produced a very credible Link it nearly caused a Civil War. Actually, an Uncivil War.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 01, 2014, 09:12:29 PM
A. I don't know where to look amongst the welter of information, and B. The last time I produced a very credible Link it nearly caused a Civil War. Actually, an Uncivil War.
What's civil about war anyway....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWaqtG9eRgA
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 01, 2014, 09:16:25 PM
Do understand the difference between reconstruction and reconstitution.
They are quite different.
The first can advance a criminal investigation.
The second is an exercise in futility ...
So why, pray tell, is asking a witness to demonstrate what they claimed happened in an oral statement to see whether it physically could be possible, an excercise in futility?
Seems eminently sensible to me to test out the veracity of a witnesses claim.
Or is it that it's only futile because it sought to test the veracity of the McCann's and their friends?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 09:19:32 PM
No, sorry, I don't do links. Everyone knows that. But since I am not much fussed about what you think, and I don't suppose that The McCanns are either, I can only suggest that you report me.
Deary me what an utterly unhelpful, condescending and downright arrogant post.
It rather begs the question why you even bother posting on here if this is what you believe to be an acceptable post.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2014, 09:30:21 PM
So why, pray tell, is asking a witness to demonstrate what they claimed happened in an oral statement to see whether it physically could be possible, an excercise in futility?
Seems eminently sensible to me to test out the veracity of a witnesses claim.
Or is it that it's only futile because it sought to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyq737AtQjU
its absolutely futile because it sought test out the veracity of a witnesses claim..you have it in one...it was nothing to do with finding Maddie...the pj were a complete and utter disgrace .... IMO
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 09:30:32 PM
its absolutely futile because it sought test out the veracity of a witnesses claim..you have it in one...it was nothing to do with finding Maddie...the pj were a complete and utter disgrace .... IMO
Yes, Websites, Chat shows & Bundleman has always been there best chance of finding Maddie but those useless PJ weren't interested.
I bet the honourable Mr Redwood wouldn't just rule Jane Tanners golden evidence out.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on April 01, 2014, 09:41:16 PM
So why, pray tell, is asking a witness to demonstrate what they claimed happened in an oral statement to see whether it physically could be possible, an excercise in futility?
Seems eminently sensible to me to test out the veracity of a witnesses claim.
Or is it that it's only futile because it sought to test the veracity of the McCann's and their friends?
I've used the example before and make no apology for using it again: the Stockwell Underground Tube Station shooting of Jean-Paul de Menezes.
Eye-witnesses "saw" Mr De Menezes, wearing a knee-length, heavyweight coat, pole-volting barriers and sprinting onto the train.
The truth: he was wearing a light-weight denim jacket with no lead in sight. He made a leisurely entrance onto the platform and stopped to buy a paper. He entered the train in an orthodox way, was pinned to the floor and shot.
What odds a (Portuguese-style) "reconstitution" unveiling the truth of that?
CCTV footage of actual events as they occurred did unveil the truth!
When Portuguese justice discards reconstitutions, a massive step forward in the quest for justice will have been made in Portuguese law.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on April 01, 2014, 09:45:24 PM
No, sorry, I don't do links. Everyone knows that. But since I am not much fussed about what you think, and I don't suppose that The McCanns are either, I can only suggest that you report me.
You mean you make it up as you go along?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 01, 2014, 09:49:03 PM
its absolutely futile because it sought test out the veracity of a witnesses claim..you have it in one...it was nothing to do with finding Maddie...the pj were a complete and utter disgrace .... IMO
So you think that testing the oral evidence of the sole witnesses to the events of that evening and by extension, potential suspects in the crime, is futile?
Really?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 01, 2014, 09:50:29 PM
I've used the example before and make no apology for using it again: the Stockwell Underground Tube Station shooting of Jean-Paul de Menezes.
Eye-witnesses "saw" Mr De Menezes, wearing a knee-length, heavyweight coat, pole-volting barriers and sprinting onto the train.
The truth: he was wearing a light-weight denim jacket with no lead in sight. He made a leisurely entrance onto the platform and stopped to buy a paper. He entered the train in an orthodox way, was pinned to the floor and shot.
What odds a (Portuguese-style) "reconstitution" unveiling the truth of that?
CCTV footage of actual events as they occurred did unveil the truth!
When Portuguese justice discards reconstitutions, a massive step forward in the quest for justice will have been made in Portuguese law.
So you're saying that eye witness accounts are unreliable?
Yes or no will suffice.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 09:51:24 PM
Very droll. Nope. But my head is stuffed with information that I don't know how to retrieve. I have a good memorym but others are better at finding this stuff than I am.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on April 01, 2014, 09:54:08 PM
So how are we supposed to rely so much on the evidence of the Tapas group then if it is "unreliable" or to use your words"dishonest"?
How are we supposed to move the investigation on? By simply taking their word for it that what they are telling us is unreliable or by investigating it to see if it is unreliable or dishonest?
As investigators how can we find which it is, without testing the veracity of it?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 01, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
Tis none of your business where I choose to post. But I do think you would be happier elsewhere from what I have seen. This Forum isn't nearly liberal enough for you. Thank God.
Oh dear not hit a raw nerves have I? My liberalism is just fine thanks, however I'm not prepared to accept that someone didn't take part in a crime just because they say they didn't take part in a crime. I'd much rather investigate and reach my conclusions based on what I can see not on what I can feel in my heart. Thank God.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 10:08:21 PM
So how are we supposed to rely so much on the evidence of the Tapas group then if it is "unreliable" or to use your words"dishonest"?
How are we supposed to move the investigation on? By simply taking their word for it that what they are telling us is unreliable or by investigating it to see if it is unreliable to dishonest?
As investigators how can we find which it is, without testing the veracity of it?
How are We supposed to move the investigation on? As investigators how can We find which it is?
Erm, have I read that right? We? Are you sure you are feeling alright?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 01, 2014, 10:12:44 PM
How are We supposed to move the investigation on? As investigators how can We find which it is?
Erm, have I read that right? We? Are you sure you are feeling alright?
Yes you have, cos what I'm suggesting is that McCann supporters put themselves in the shoes of an investigator and proposing how they would deal with moving the case forward.
I hear that the PJ made a mess of it, so let's see what different methods McCann supporters would have used to investigate the case.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 10:17:28 PM
Yes you have, cos what I'm suggesting is that McCann supporters put themselves in the shoes of an investigator and proposing how they would deal with moving the case forward.
I hear that the PJ made a mess of it, so let's see what different methods McCann supporters would have used to investigate the case.
No, sorry. I don't want to play that game. I would much rather leave it to the professionals, who incidentally, happen to believe that The McCanns are innocent and are searching for The Abductor. Or did you miss that bit?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on April 01, 2014, 10:56:19 PM
Tick Tock and all that jazz. Softly, softly catchee monkee That blooming tide has got to turn one day. And Scotland Yard are playing a blinder Seven Years we've been waiting. No wonder I find so much to be amusing.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 02, 2014, 12:13:51 AM
Someone is going to produce proof of this eventually. In which case I shall expect your apology. To The McCanns, that is.
Admin/Mods
Eleanor has said the McCanns offered to take part in a reconstruction and that the Portuguese police rejected that offer ... and a second member, Sadie, makes the same claim
Eleanor now guarantees that it is only a matter of time until someone ( other than she and Sadie, who are unable to ) provides evidence of the claim
Until 'someone' does I would like to request the claim is lodged in the Myth section of the board
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on April 02, 2014, 12:35:01 AM
Eleanor has said the McCanns offered to take part in a reconstruction and that the Portuguese police rejected that offer ... and a second member, Sadie, makes the same claim
Eleanor now guarantees that it is only a matter of time until someone ( other than she and Sadie, who are unable to ) provides evidence of the claim
Until 'someone' does I would like to request the claim is lodged in the Myth section of the board
Well let's try to push a little more for evidence first before elevating it to mythical status.
There's no mention of it in Kate's book, but perhaps they have spoken of it elsewhere?
Sometimes the evidence is there but we just gloss over it. Take this tread, for example. It is crystal clear in many letters going between T9 and police that their lawyers advised them not to take part in a reconstruction. Yet it seems to be being treated as 'news' to us.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on April 02, 2014, 12:44:30 AM
Well it doesn't mention a request from the McCanns but it was abandoned because he would be in the limelight (watched) Could this be where it came from. It was to suit them (PJ), but would have been easier for the McCanns and friends surely -------------------------------------------------------- In the Portuguese criminal justice system, reconstructions of events surrounding a murder or disappearance or other crime are used to test the validity of the witnesses’ statements. The actual persons involved in such events are the witnesses themselves. They will be invited to the scene of the crime. Such reconstructions are commonly video-recorded for the benefit of the criminal investigation. This is especially true where there are obvious contradictions between the witnesses’ statement, as is manifestly the case regarding Madeleine’s disappearance. Your researchers must be fully aware of these. They have been extensively catalogued and analysed (a) in the interim report of Tavares de Almeida (b) in the Attorney-General’s final report (c) in Dr Gonçalo Amaral’s book and (d) on numerous Madeleine McCann information and discussion sites on the internet.
This type of ‘reconstruction’ is very different from a ‘Crimewatch’-style televised reconstruction.
Dr Amaral wanted to do such a reconstruction as it was clear in the first days of the investigation that there were significant inconsistencies in the witnesses’ statements, even between various statements made by the same witness. As he explains in his book, he decided not to do one because of the intense media spotlight he and his team were under.
A reconstruction of some of the events of 3 May 2007 was shown on the BBC’s Panorama programme on 19 November 2007. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=258131
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 02, 2014, 12:45:08 AM
Well let's try to push a little more for evidence first before elevating it to mythical status.
There's no mention of it in Kate's book, but perhaps they have spoken of it elsewhere?
Sometimes the evidence is there but we just gloss over it. Take this tread, for example. It is crystal clear in many letters going between T9 and police that their lawyers advised them not to take part in a reconstruction. Yet it seems to be being treated as 'news' to us.
OK ... what time limit shall we put on it ?
The fact that neither of the two members who have made the claim are able to provide any evidence at all to support it is an indication that the claim is false
So why are you giving it credence ? ... based on what ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on April 02, 2014, 03:08:30 AM
The default excuse given as a reason for the tapas-9 not taking part in a reconstitution is that it was futile but that was not for them to decide. This was a police investigation so it was for the police to decide what was futile and what was not. The author of the archiving report was crystal clear when he stated that the investigation was impeded in part because the witnesses refused to take part in the reconstitution. Impeded it was which by implication also impeded the search for Madeleine.
Blaming Amaral for this in the circumstances therefore can only be seen as a prize act of hypocrisy.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 02, 2014, 07:29:20 AM
No, sorry. I don't want to play that game. I would much rather leave it to the professionals, who incidentally, happen to believe that The McCanns are innocent and are searching for The Abductor. Or did you miss that bit?
What a cop out. You're quite prepared to sling rocks at the PJ but not prepared to state what you would have done in their position. That won't do. It's bad debating. You can't criticise the PJ if you aren't prepared to state what you would have done yourself. It makes your arguments and you lose credibility.
You've even managed to throw in the fallback line of a McCann supporter who's lost the argument.
"But Mr Redwood says they're innocent and looking for an abductor".
For the record when nice Mr Redwood brings us an abductor with incontrovertible evidence that Madeleine was abducted by this person then I'll believe him. Until then I'm relaxed enough to see how his investigation plays out.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on April 02, 2014, 01:49:07 PM
The default excuse given as a reason for the tapas-9 not taking part in a reconstitution is that it was futile but that was not for them to decide. This was a police investigation so it was for the police to decide what was futile and what was not. The author of the archiving report was crystal clear when he stated that the investigation was impeded in part because the witnesses refused to take part in the reconstitution. Impeded it was which by implication also impeded the search for Madeleine.
Blaming Amaral for this in the circumstances therefore can only be seen as a prize act of hypocrisy.
Why didn't Amaral do this earlier when it was fresh in peoples minds ... and wanted, cos it might have helped find Madeleine. JUST WHY didn't he do it THEN?
Thank God they didn't go. After the Cipriano Case no sane person would.
Reasons:
1. Please dont forget that by this time Amaral had been charged with perjury in the Cipriano Torture Trial, so he had a big question mark over his name and honesty already.
2. Then Leandro had warned them about the goings on in Joana Cipriano case. i) He was allegedly beaten up by Amaral himself to force him to give a false witness statement ... and ii) That is apart from the absolutely appalling torture of Leonor... and iii) A trial that should have never happened
3. Also the Michael Cook trial was a big wake up call
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199293/cmhansrd/1992-06-09/Debate-20.html ..Scroll down Column 282
The above publication is from Hansard, the Official UK Government report of proceedings
4. And some of the tapas group, were I believe, already getting vibes that they were wrongly suspected of something. I dont remember the details but it was on here in the past few days. They would have felt they were being fitted up
5. THe FO and solicitors would have warned them not to go back with the history and the writing already on the wall
6. That reconstruction reconstitution was NOT about finding Madeleine; it was about indicting The Mccanns and possibly some of the Tapas group, imo. Amarals mind was already made up from day one; he was NOT even looking for a living Madeleine.
He was purely wanting to find any "reason" to clap the "British 'swingers'" in jail. Only my opinion, but pointers.
7) On that fateful Arguido day, Gerry had been lied to and told that Madeleines cadavar odour was in their hire car. He KNEW they had NOT carried Madeleines body anywhere in that car. At that stage he knew exactly what Amaral and Co were up to
Thank God, they individually and collectively heeded advice and didn't go.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2014, 02:56:38 PM
What does any British holidaymaker do when they find themselves in trouble with the law in another country or at the very least something has occurred to necessitate the local law being involved? Call the Embassy or the nearest Consulate- all on 24/7 standby - which in this case is the one located in Portimao less than half an hour’s drive from PdL and all of whom would have known about both the Cook and Cipriano cases.
As for OC while they may not have known about the Cook case would certainly have known about the Cipriano. Did somebody I wonder at OC tip the McCanns about the latter.
Whatever if there were a call to the Consulate the alarm bells would have gone off immediately and people wonder why the Ambassador put in a midnight call to Alpiro Ribeiro.
It’s nothing to do with conspiracy- it’s just part and parcel of what the diplomatic service do.
Not sure it would be normal practice for an ambassador to be alerted or to have taken action so quickly after a report of a missing child, who might have turned up at any minute.
No doubt if there are similar examples of ambassadorial involvement, someone will be along with chapter and verse.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on April 02, 2014, 02:57:42 PM
Well it doesn't mention a request from the McCanns but it was abandoned because he would be in the limelight (watched) Could this be where it came from. It was to suit them (PJ), but would have been easier for the McCanns and friends surely -------------------------------------------------------- In the Portuguese criminal justice system, reconstructions of events surrounding a murder or disappearance or other crime are used to test the validity of the witnesses’ statements. The actual persons involved in such events are the witnesses themselves. They will be invited to the scene of the crime. Such reconstructions are commonly video-recorded for the benefit of the criminal investigation. This is especially true where there are obvious contradictions between the witnesses’ statement, as is manifestly the case regarding Madeleine’s disappearance. Your researchers must be fully aware of these. They have been extensively catalogued and analysed (a) in the interim report of Tavares de Almeida (b) in the Attorney-General’s final report (c) in Dr Gonçalo Amaral’s book and (d) on numerous Madeleine McCann information and discussion sites on the internet.
This type of ‘reconstruction’ is very different from a ‘Crimewatch’-style televised reconstruction.
Dr Amaral wanted to do such a reconstruction as it was clear in the first days of the investigation that there were significant inconsistencies in the witnesses’ statements, even between various statements made by the same witness. As he explains in his book, he decided not to do one because of the intense media spotlight he and his team were under.
A reconstruction of some of the events of 3 May 2007 was shown on the BBC’s Panorama programme on 19 November 2007. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=258131
Oh, just noticed this. Well done Anna 8((()*/
This is not what I read but it illustrates that reconstructions were on the "books" but Amaral himself refused and did not want one because he says " of the intense media spotlight he and his team were under"
I actually read that the Mccanns had requested one but the above quote found by our master searcher Anna illustrates the point just as well. Amaral did NOT want one at the best time ... immediately after Madeleine disappeared ... and the excuse sounds a bit weak. 8(>((
Can anyone think why he might be so keen to have one later ? Ooooooooo, that's a difficult one, aint it?
Thank you Anna.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on April 02, 2014, 03:03:46 PM
This is not what I read but it illustrates that reconstructions were on the "books" but Amaral himself refused and did not want one because he says " of the intense media spotlight he and his team were under"
I actually read that the Mccanns had requested one but the above quote found by our master searcher Anna illustrates the point just as well. Amaral did NOT want one at the best time ... immediately after Madeleine disappeared ... and the excuse sounds a bit weak. 8(>((
Can anyone think why he might be so keen to have one later ? Ooooooooo, that's a difficult one, aint it?
Thank you Anna.
Really, or in truth another myth.
Here's from the book:
Quote
In mid-May, we had already submitted the nine friends of the McCanns to a second round of interviews. In spite of its importance, - too upset seemingly to countenance the exercise - Kate Healy's was left until later. In view of the number of inconsistencies raised by cross-checking the statements, we are thinking of going ahead with a reconstruction. This is a routine procedure, above all when contradictory details pile up. Most of the time, it helps to make rapid headway with the investigation. By placing the various players in the drama - in this case the group of friends, employees of the restaurant, play leaders and other witnesses - into a situation that is identical to what they experienced, differences between the versions become obvious. When an improbability is noticed, the protagonists must then explain immediately.
The reconstruction was never to take place. The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple. There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation. For all that, a more discreet reconstruction, even partial, with only the couple present, might provide useful information. No a prior judgment is implied, quite the contrary. It's quite simply the co-operation that we have the right to expect on the part of parents faced with such a situation.
I am convinced that there is still a need for a reconstruction, whatever form it takes. The staging of the events of May 3rd from the details gathered from numerous witness statements would help to revive memories. It is difficult to understand why that is not possible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2014, 08:04:17 AM
So the mccanns did want to do a construction early on when it would have helped
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on April 04, 2014, 10:05:37 AM
If that was true it would have happened. There is no disputing it never happened and has been thwarted for nearly seven years.
That dinna matter John. It don't fit in with the Orwellian "Four legs good, two legs bad" approach. Lets face it if TM said the sun rose in the west we would be w**k**s if we said it rose in the east even were we to prove it with instruments certified and calibrated by a UKAS accredited organisation. 8(>((
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 04, 2014, 03:02:27 PM
"I would do anything to find Madeleine ....but I won't do that."
In what way would risking get stitched up for the crimes of others against Madeleine have helped to find Madeleine?
Surely the reverse is true because if, in the eyes of the world, the case was "solved" with the wrong people in the dock for crimes against Madeleine, everyone would stop looking.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 06, 2014, 10:27:21 AM
In what way would risking get stitched up for the crimes of others against Madeleine have helped to find Madeleine?
Surely the reverse is true because if, in the eyes of the world, the case was "solved" with the wrong people in the dock for crimes against Madeleine, everyone would stop looking.
I was waiting for that old cliche to come out, getting 'stitched up'.
It is still a totally contemptible excuse.
Next excuse..............................
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on April 06, 2014, 10:43:33 AM
"Getting Stitched Up" Some one had been watching too many re runs of The Sweeney. "Gor blimey guv'nor we better had fit 'im up or we're brown bread wiv them upstairs". Slarti hit it right on the head.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on April 06, 2014, 10:48:16 AM
"Getting Stitched Up" Some one had been watching too many re runs of The Sweeney. "Gor blimey guv'nor we better had fit 'im up or we're brown bread wiv them upstairs". Slarti hit it right on the head.
Likely to be more authentic than anything stemming from a certain corrupt and disgraced Portuguese ex-"detective"
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on April 06, 2014, 10:55:16 AM
Likely to be more authentic than anything stemming from a certain corrupt and disgraced Portuguese ex-"detective"
As per usual from you ferryman, pure crappola.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on April 06, 2014, 11:02:40 AM
Reading the interviews all the comings and goings that night were a bit like a French farce. It is easy to conjecture they were advised not to attend a reconstitution because their accounts of what occurred would be shown up to be improbable if not impossible.........then what? Even the most biased of people would have to admit they were all over the oche. But they all so obviously wanted to help with the investigation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 06, 2014, 11:29:58 AM
Reading the interviews all the comings and goings that night were a bit like a French farce. It is easy to conjecture they were advised not to attend a reconstitution because their accounts of what occurred would be shown up to be improbable if not impossible.........then what? Even the most biased of people would have to admit they were all over the oche. But they all so obviously wanted to help with the investigation.
That's just what your whole post is...conjecture...but to you it's the truth
The most obvious reason that the statements contained discrepancies are 1 Statements often do
2 The statements were translated and the tapas had no idea what they were signing
And the reason they were advised not to attend was that no none trusted the PJ
Those are my opinions....conjecture if you like
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 06, 2014, 02:59:35 PM
I would imagine that the first thing the tapas friends would do, on recieving the request to take part in a reconstruction, would be to contact Kate and Gerry to ask what they wanted them to do
I would imagine that they would ask, "What do you want us to do ? we are ready to do anything you need to get Madeleine back, and help clear your names"
I just don't see them presenting obstacles to the police and 'taking legal advice' without refering to the McCanns first
I would imagine, therefore, that the refusal to attend a reconstruction by the tapas friends was at the McCanns behest
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on April 06, 2014, 03:04:42 PM
I would imagine that the first thing the tapas friends would do, on recieving the request to take part in a reconstruction, would be to contact Kate and Gerry to ask what they wanted them to do
I would imagine that they would ask, "What do you want us to do ? we are ready to do anything you need to get Madeleine back, and help clear your names"
I just don't see them presenting obstacles to the police and 'taking legal advice' without refering to the McCanns first
I would imagine, therefore, that the refusal to attend a reconstruction by the tapas friends was at the McCanns behest
I would imagine that to be very likely - perhaps agreed at the Rothley Towers get-together they held that year.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 06, 2014, 04:17:18 PM
I would imagine that the first thing the tapas friends would do, on recieving the request to take part in a reconstruction, would be to contact Kate and Gerry to ask what they wanted them to do
I would imagine that they would ask, "What do you want us to do ? we are ready to do anything you need to get Madeleine back, and help clear your names"
I just don't see them presenting obstacles to the police and 'taking legal advice' without refering to the McCanns first
I would imagine, therefore, that the refusal to attend a reconstruction by the tapas friends was at the McCanns behest
You are entitled to "imagine" whatever you like
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: peter claridge on April 06, 2014, 06:05:45 PM
That's just what your whole post is...conjecture...but to you it's the truth
The most obvious reason that the statements contained discrepancies are 1 Statements often do
2 The statements were translated and the tapas had no idea what they were signing
And the reason they were advised not to attend was that no none trusted the PJ
Those are my opinions....conjecture if you like
It's actually because they are lies (apart from Dianne Webster pre rogs), mind you to be fair they didn't have a lot of time to fabricate them after the Smith sighting!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 06, 2014, 09:42:27 PM
perhaps the lawyers for the mccannns and tapas saw what the evidence the ciprianos were convicted on and decide that the Portuguese justice system wasn't fit for purpose
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: icabodcrane on April 06, 2014, 11:39:36 PM
If the McCanns and their chums had been entirely truthful when giving their version of events that night then I do not see what they had to fear in agreeing to a reconstruction
Indeed, I would think they should have welcomed it, given that if they had been entirely truthful, the reconstruction would have run like clockwork, wouldn't it ?
Here was their opportunity to show the police exactly what had happened, and thereby demonstrate the truthfulness of their statements
Then the police could have eliminated them from their enquiries and got on with the job of finding Madeleine
As it was, by refusing, the investigation was stymied ( and subsequently shelved ) and Madeleiene was effectively abandoned to her fate
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 07, 2014, 07:56:13 AM
If the McCanns and their chums had been entirely truthful when giving their version of events that night then I do not see what they had to fear in agreeing to a reconstruction
Indeed, I would think they should have welcomed it, given that if they had been entirely truthful, the reconstruction would have run like clockwork, wouldn't it ?
Here was their opportunity to show the police exactly what had happened, and thereby demonstrate the truthfulness of their statements
Then the police could have eliminated them from their enquiries and got on with the job of finding Madeleine
As it was, by refusing, the investigation was stymied ( and subsequently shelved ) and Madeleiene was effectively abandoned to her fate
They were entirely truthful but they feared a miscarriage of justice...simple
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on April 07, 2014, 08:17:53 AM
If the McCanns and their chums had been entirely truthful when giving their version of events that night then I do not see what they had to fear in agreeing to a reconstruction
Indeed, I would think they should have welcomed it, given that if they had been entirely truthful, the reconstruction would have run like clockwork, wouldn't it ?
Here was their opportunity to show the police exactly what had happened, and thereby demonstrate the truthfulness of their statements
Then the police could have eliminated them from their enquiries and got on with the job of finding Madeleine
As it was, by refusing, the investigation was stymied ( and subsequently shelved ) and Madeleiene was effectively abandoned to her fate
IMO Madeleine was effectively abandoned to her fate from the moment Amaral decided it was the parents wot dunnit.
Can you elaborate on how such a recon. would ''run like clockwork'' as the only person who could give a definite time that he left the table was Gerry (9.05). The others could only give approximate times.
I have asked several times how this recon by 10 people who cannot give precise times can possibly be undertaken with any accuracy - but no-one has come up with an answer.
So I ask again - For instance Jez said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 minutes. So which time span would they use in a recon to have Gerry and Jez standing in the street? 3 mins or 5 mins? Surely you are not expecting anyone to remember their actual conversations a year later - and what about the waiters - where do they feature in this recon? They are part of what happened that night.
For a recon to prove anything in this particular case, then 10 or more people would have to be able to precisely re-create their movements on the night of 3rd may - a year later. IMO this is clearly asking for the impossible - but if you think differently then perhaps you ( or anyone for that matter) could suggest how this proposed recon was going to be conducted so that it 'ran like clockwork'.
As far as I am concerned no-one lied about their movements, but that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate. Memories are not tape recorders and have been proved to be flawed - which is a perfectly normal human 'condition'. You seem to be dismissing that well known established fact from the equation altogether.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Estuarine on April 07, 2014, 09:56:32 AM
IMO Madeleine was effectively abandoned to her fate from the moment Amaral decided it was the parents wot dunnit.
Can you elaborate on how such a recon. would ''run like clockwork'' as the only person who could give a definite time that he left the table was Gerry (9.05). The others could only give approximate times.
I have asked several times how this recon by 10 people who cannot give precise times can possibly be undertaken with any accuracy - but no-one has come up with an answer.
So I ask again - For instance Jez said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 minutes. So which time span would they use in a recon to have Gerry and Jez standing in the street? 3 mins or 5 mins? Surely you are not expecting anyone to remember their actual conversations a year later - and what about the waiters - where do they feature in this recon? They are part of what happened that night.
For a recon to prove anything in this particular case, then 10 or more people would have to be able to precisely re-create their movements on the night of 3rd may - a year later. IMO this is clearly asking for the impossible - but if you think differently then perhaps you ( or anyone for that matter) could suggest how this proposed recon was going to be conducted so that it 'ran like clockwork'.
As far as I am concerned no-one lied about their movements, but that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate. Memories are not tape recorders and have been proved to be flawed - which is a perfectly normal human 'condition'. You seem to be dismissing that well known established fact from the equation altogether.
I have been round the block a few times and seen some daft things and heard some puerile comments but this is worthy of a Nobel Prize for Inanity. It was Dr Amaral's fault? How pray.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on April 07, 2014, 10:20:42 AM
IMO Madeleine was effectively abandoned to her fate from the moment Amaral decided it was the parents wot dunnit.
Can you elaborate on how such a recon. would ''run like clockwork'' as the only person who could give a definite time that he left the table was Gerry (9.05). The others could only give approximate times.
I have asked several times how this recon by 10 people who cannot give precise times can possibly be undertaken with any accuracy - but no-one has come up with an answer.
So I ask again - For instance Jez said he spoke to Gerry for 3 to 5 minutes. So which time span would they use in a recon to have Gerry and Jez standing in the street? 3 mins or 5 mins? Surely you are not expecting anyone to remember their actual conversations a year later - and what about the waiters - where do they feature in this recon? They are part of what happened that night.
For a recon to prove anything in this particular case, then 10 or more people would have to be able to precisely re-create their movements on the night of 3rd may - a year later. IMO this is clearly asking for the impossible - but if you think differently then perhaps you ( or anyone for that matter) could suggest how this proposed recon was going to be conducted so that it 'ran like clockwork'.
As far as I am concerned no-one lied about their movements, but that doesn't mean that everything they remembered was accurate. Memories are not tape recorders and have been proved to be flawed - which is a perfectly normal human 'condition'. You seem to be dismissing that well known established fact from the equation altogether.
Ok, so you're arguing that it was pointless, others have argued that it was potentially dangerous for the Mccanns. in that they would've been 'stitched up'.
So the worse case scenario is that the Mccanns end up in prison for a crime that they didn't commit, right?
Fine, let's say that that's possible.
The best case scenario is that something would have become apparent that would leads to the safe return of Madeleine.
What wouldn't you do to if you thought your 4 year old daughter was in the clutches of a paedophile? Even if it involved your own personal danger? Even if they was only a very slight chance that your actions would save her?
I've given the best and worst case scenarios. Both were unlikely. They were the outside chance. The probable outcome was that nothing would have been resolved, accept that the Mccanns would have been seen to cooperate with the investigating force.
People run in to burning houses to rescue their children, they throw themselves in to dangerous rivers! People have drowned rescuing their dogs from water, for Gods sake!
Taking part in a reconstruction that you don't really fancy doing cause you don't trust the guy in change is not above and beyond the duty of parents trying to find their child.
And as for the T7, if I were Kate Mccann and they were reticent to help me, I'd have begged, cried, pleaded and emotionally blackmailed them until they agreed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on April 07, 2014, 10:20:52 AM
I have been round the block a few times and seen some daft things and heard some puerile comments but this is worthy of a Nobel Prize for Inanity. It was Dr Amaral's fault? How pray.
Makes perfect sense to me. The poster isn't blaming amaral for the abduction but for running a very poor investigation by not looking into the strangers that SY are currently trying to investgate
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on April 07, 2014, 10:39:28 AM
I have been round the block a few times and seen some daft things and heard some puerile comments but this is worthy of a Nobel Prize for Inanity. It was Dr Amaral's fault? How pray.
Why be so rude?
Were his officers looking for an abductor once he decided Madeleine died in the apartment and that her parents were complicit in disposing of her body - or was he concentrating their time on trying to find evidence to convict the parents? His 'fridge' theory is just one example which should give you a clue.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on April 07, 2014, 12:45:47 PM
I have been round the block a few times and seen some daft things and heard some puerile comments but this is worthy of a Nobel Prize for Inanity. It was Dr Amaral's fault? How pray.
My only quibble with Benice's post is that what she states is not so much an opinion as a fact.
From the moment it was decided Kate and Gerry were the culprits, time spent probing the parents was time wasted/missed in trying to track down the true culprits and rescue Madeleine.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on April 07, 2014, 12:48:39 PM
From the moment it was decided Kate and Gerry were the culprits, time spent probing the parents was time wasted/missed in trying to track down the true culprits and rescue Madeleine.
You could look at that the other way round.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Cariad on April 07, 2014, 12:51:57 PM
My only quibble with Benice's post is that what she states is not so much an opinion as a fact.
From the moment it was decided Kate and Gerry were the culprits, time spent probing the parents was time wasted/missed in trying to track down the true culprits and rescue Madeleine.
You think they'd've done everything to clear themselves and get the PJ looking for their daughter again wouldn't you?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on April 07, 2014, 01:21:38 PM
My only quibble with Benice's post is that what she states is not so much an opinion as a fact.
From the moment it was decided Kate and Gerry were the culprits, time spent probing the parents was time wasted/missed in trying to track down the true culprits and rescue Madeleine.
Well had they taken part in the reconstitution and explained the discrepancies they would have forced the PJ to look elsewhere for suspects.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on April 08, 2014, 11:36:43 AM
On the eve of the arguido interviews the McCanns lawyer called with them and warned them that there was a distinct possibility that one or both could be arrested. Kate refers to this in her book and recalls thinking what would her parents and friends think. The other consequence of this meeting was that Gerry was contemplating doing a runner and driving to Spain to escape Amaral.
Little wonder they were too scared to go back.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on April 08, 2014, 12:42:14 PM
Well had they taken part in the reconstitution and explained the discrepancies they would have forced the PJ to look elsewhere for suspects.
We discussed this before. Article 276 of the Penal Process Code. There are tight deadlines for an investigation in Portugal: 8 months if there are no arguidos and 6 months if there are. At the end of that period there has to be a decision to either charge someone or shelve it. There had already been extensions in this case: one when the McCanns were made arguidos and then to get all the rogs and what-not back and analysed. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2089.msg68701#msg68701
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 11, 2014, 06:06:44 PM
Whatever way you cut it the last seven years have been an eye opener as far as the McCanns and their tapas chums are concerned. They all wriggled out of doing a proper reconstruction by taking part as they did on 3 May 2007. Their excuses for doing so are timid and disingenuous to say the least.
Then there is the abysmal approach to searching for a supposedly missing daughter. If I am honest, their conduct is not typical of parents who have had a child abducted. Their demeanour is more closely associated with a death, make of that what you may.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: gilet on April 11, 2014, 06:35:43 PM
Whatever way you cut it the last seven years have been an eye opener as far as the McCanns and their tapas chums are concerned. They all wriggled out of doing a proper reconstruction by taking part as they did on 3 May 2007. Their excuses for doing so are timid and disingenuous to say the least.
Then there is the abysmal approach to searching for a supposedly missing daughter. If I am honest, their conduct is not typical of parents who have had a child abducted. Their demeanour is more closely associated with a death, make of that what you may.
Thanks for that insight into your thinking about the case and your personal opinion about the way these people acted.
I trust you are never actually in such a position and have to deal with the problems of the disappearance of a child.
Personally, I don't believe that you can be dogmatic over the way in which people react and that to suggest so is in itself quite disingenous.
I regret that no reconstruction was done but my regret is not only related to the crass way which this one was attempted but also the crass way that the PJ refused to undertake one when it would really have mattered far more.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on April 11, 2014, 06:52:05 PM
Have you forgotten why Amaral couldn't do one? The media circus. Remind me, who was it who started that off?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2014, 12:50:34 AM
Maybe someone will explain exactly how an accurate recon. involving 10 people could possibly be achieved - with no-one except Gerry (9.05) being able to say for definite what time they did things. IIRC The recon proposed was to be a 'one go only' at it starting at 5.30 - until 11.00p.m.
The PJ say to to Jez Wilkins - ''we want you to set off on your walk at the time you set off on May 3rd'' Jez says - ''But I'm not sure what time I set off - so if I get it wrong I could end up missing Gerry completely - and even if I guess it right - how long do Gerry and I stand together - 3mins or 5 mins?
JT says I'm not sure whether it was 5 mins or 10 mins after Gerry left when I left the table - if I get it wrong, Gerry could be back at the table before I've left?
The others have the same problems - so what would the PJ's answer to them be? . I've asked this question several times - but no Sceptic has ever responded.
IMO the PJ knew the chances of the group agreeing to return were miniscule. After the way they had been treated and having seen how the McCanns had been treated. - all trust in the PJ had gone. In fact I think the PJ were banking on it - and just to make sure - they let the group know they could not guarantee there would be no press around, they referred to the McCanns as 'the offenders' and told them not to bring their children with them. And also made the stipulation that they all had to agree to attend - or it wouldn't happen.
With the recon being refused - that gave the PJ an excuse to offset the blame for having to shelve the case. All IMHO.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2014, 09:27:22 AM
Please can you link to the evidence which shows the McCanns refused to take part in a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on June 11, 2014, 09:32:05 AM
The McCann's and their friends prevented it [re-examination of the timeline] from happening.
Clearly that's not true.
The reconstitution never happened.
And the timeline has been changed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 09:35:12 AM
The McCann's and their friends prevented it [re-examination of the timeline] from happening.
Clearly that's not true.
The reconstitution never happened.
And the timeline has been changed.
Backtracking now old bean, however the cat's out of the bag.
If SY have investigated the timelines of that evening and concluded there was a window of opportunity for abduction, the surely the PJ would have found the same window of investigation in the reconstruction.
Their refusal to take part and co-operate prevented the PJ from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY appear to have found many years later.
It's utterly shocking that the end result of this refusal by the group has set the investigation back 7 years.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 09:39:39 AM
OK, then please link to this statement so we can read it ourselves.
there you go:
6 April 2008 12:00 AM
By Sunday People
The cloud of suspicion hanging over Kate and Gerry McCann is set to be sensationally lifted by Portuguese police.
The couple's status as formal suspects - arguidos - in the disappearance of their four-year-old daughter Madeleine is about to be dropped, The People can reveal.
The dramatic move will follow a comprehensive review of the case which will be completed within weeks.
But the McCanns will not be cleared until after May 8 - five days after the first anniversary of Maddie's disappearance when the couple had hoped to be back in Portugal to boost the search.
A highly-placed Portuguese legal source told The People last night: "I can confirm a review of the case will be concluded next month.
"It may well be the case that Kate and Gerry's arguido status is about to be dropped."
A family friend of the McCanns said Kate and Gerry were "greatly encouraged" by these developments.
The couple had repeatedly pleaded for their arguido status to be lifted so they could concentrate on their search for Maddie.
Their lawyers have warned them not to return while they are still suspects.
A family source added: "Any announcement that Kate and Gerry are no longer being treated as suspects will be a massive weight off their shoulders.
"But there will still be considerable heartache for them as the timing means this will not be likely until after the first anniversary of Maddie's disappearance."
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.
Their lawyers would block it anyway.
"But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently.
"They have discussed the possibility of returning but nothing has yet been agreed." Maddie went missing from the family's Algarve holiday flat in Praia da Luz on May 3 last year as her parents ate tapas nearby.
Kate - both 39-year-old doctors from Rothley, Leics - were made official suspects in September after months of interviews.
But despite immense pressure from investigators pushing for a confession, they have always maintained their innocence. An insider said: "It is great news that Kate and Gerry are finally set to be cleared.
"But at the same time it also shows the police have got no idea about what happened to Madeleine.
"It is almost a year since she disappeared and we still don't seem any closer to finding her."
Backtracking now old bean, however the cat's out of the bag.
If SY have investigated the timelines of that evening and concluded there was a window of opportunity for abduction, the surely the PJ would have found the same window of investigation in the reconstruction.
Their refusal to take part and co-operate prevented the PJ from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY appear to have found many years later.
It's utterly shocking that the end result of this refusal by the group has set the investigation back 7 years.
Scotland Yard checked The Creche Records. Amaral could have done the same. In which case he would have found the window himself.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2014, 09:43:03 AM
Backtracking now old bean, however the cat's out of the bag.
If SY have investigated the timelines of that evening and concluded there was a window of opportunity for abduction, the surely the PJ would have found the same window of investigation in the reconstruction.
Their refusal to take part and co-operate prevented the PJ from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY appear to have found many years later.
It's utterly shocking that the end result of this refusal by the group has set the investigation back 7 years.
So - any reason why the PJ couldn't have arrived at the same conclusion as SY did, without recourse to a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
I must have missed something; when was the case solved and closed then? Or have you not used the correct word? Or are you privy to the inner machinations of The MPS ? perhaps you will share with us this inside track if you would be so kind?
. the conclusion being that there was a window of opportunity for an abduction to take place - do keep up.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 11, 2014, 09:59:56 AM
So - any reason why the PJ couldn't have arrived at the same conclusion as SY did, without recourse to a reconstruction?
What difference does it make how they came to the same conclusion, they would have come to the same conclusion though, wouldn't they because after all the reconstitution would in essence have been a forensic anyalsis of the witnesses statements and timelines.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:05:48 AM
Nothing in there about them refusing to take part in a reconstruction.
What part of:
"If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.Their lawyers would block it anyway.But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently."
Don't you understand?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 10:11:38 AM
What difference does it make how they came to the same conclusion, they would have come to the same conclusion though, wouldn't they because after all the reconstitution would in essence have been a forensic anyalsis of the witnesses statements and timelines.
Creche Records? It was all there from Day One if only Amaral had bothered to look. Or ordered someone else to look. Him only being The Coordinator.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:12:49 AM
Now there's me thinking that the purpose of the reconstitution as requested by the PJ was to test the veracity of the statements made by the Tapas 9 relating to events between about 20:30 and 22:00 on May 3rd 2007. What a silly Billy I am.
You obviously haven't been following this discussion and have seen an opportunity to jump in without fully understanding the point being made, never mind - we all make mistakes.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
"If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.Their lawyers would block it anyway.But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently."
Don't you understand?
. Where does it mention blocking them from taking part in a reconstruction (which they were legally obliged to take part in?)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:29:33 AM
What are you talking about? The McCann Lawyers never blocked their return. They were never called upon to do so.
If I believe that Clarence Mitchell actually said that, then he only said that the lawyers would, not that they had.
So are you saying the mcCann's weren't asked to return for the reconstruction. if so you are wrong.
Are you doubting the directly attributable words of Mitchell in the Daily Mirror article i posted?
I have explained the lawyers actions, with Mitchell's words and the ultimate outcome of the reconstruction which actually fitted in with what Mitchell said, that they would not be returning.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:39:25 AM
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm It's always worth reading all this again for a laugh.
It is embarrassing and, worse, hugely detrimental to the investigation into their friend's missing child.
As Ferryman has very kindly pointed out if they had taken part the PJ could have discovered the same window of opportunity for abduction SY appear to have found 7 years later.
If they had taken part and if that window was there then the suspicion about them would have ended forever and the PJ could have got on with the business of finding the perp and more importantly that poor child.
They should all (the Tapas lot) hang their heads in shame.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2014, 10:45:27 AM
It is embarrassing and, worse, hugely detrimental to the investigation into their friend's missing child.
As Ferryman has very kindly pointed out if they had taken part the PJ could have discovered the same window of opportunity for abduction SY appear to have found 7 years later.
If they had taken part and if that window was there then the suspicion about them would have ended forever and the PJ could have got on with the business of finding the perp and more importantly that poor child.
They should all (the Tapas lot) hang their heads in shame.
Yeah, well we all sort of thought it was, erm, the best thing to do, you know? It didn't right that they were trying to check on our, erm, you know, movements that night. @)(++(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2014, 10:46:06 AM
Mitchell states the lawyers would block their return. Their arguido status meant they had to return.
What then was the only way for the lawyers to block it in line with Mitchell's words?
Perhaps you could explain why there is a letter from the McCanns' lawyer in the files requesting for the reconstruction date to be changed as Gerry was unable to attend on the first date proposed?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 10:47:54 AM
So are you saying the mcCann's weren't asked to return for the reconstruction. if so you are wrong.
Are you doubting the directly attributable words of Mitchell in the Daily Mirror article i posted?
I have explained the lawyers actions, with Mitchell's words and the ultimate outcome of the reconstruction which actually fitted in with what Mitchell said, that they would not be returning.
Jezuz. The McCanns were offered two dates on which to return for the reconstitution. They agreed to one of those dates. They were asked, and they did agree.
I am doubting the context in which Clarence Mitchell's quote was made, if in fact he made it in the context of returning for the reconstitution.
An extradition warrant can only be applied for if there is evidence of some kind that the people against whom the warrant is issued are in some way culpable, and will be charged. This has never been the case with The McCanns.
[... moderated ...]
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:50:44 AM
Perhaps you could explain why there is a letter from the McCanns' lawyer in the files requesting for the reconstruction date to be changed as Gerry was unable to attend on the first date proposed?
Are you familiar with the expression "going through the motions".
If i were you i'd stop picking because the only two options are that the lawyers blocked their return or their friends callously and of their own free will and volition took it upon themselves to kill off the reconstruction which would have uncovered the same forensic time line window of opportunity that SY tell us they found, some 7 years ago. This would have allowed the PJ to follow the same lines as SY say they are now following.
Either the lawyers are the s***s in this or their friends are.
Blaming the lawyers is the least bad option.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 10:58:42 AM
Jezuz. The McCanns were offered two dates on which to return for the reconstitution. They agreed to one of those dates. They were asked, and they did agree.
I am doubting the context in which Clarence Mitchell's quote was made, if in fact he made it in the context of returning for the reconstitution.
An extradition warrant can only be applied for if there is evidence of some kind that the people against whom the warrant is issued are in some way culpable, and will be charged. This has never been the case with The McCanns.
All the bullshite and twisting will not alter this.
What context do you believe Mitchell was talking about then? He gave that quote some two weeks before the official email requests came through to participate, and in relation to a review of the case.
Do you think he was referring to a "return to Portugal" for some more group tennis and jogging?
It's blatantly obvious what he was referring to, because at that point that he gave the quote the reconstruction was the only issue in town after the Rogatories.
Now you can be a flat earther if you wish but that won't wash with people who have open minds and brains who won't take someone's squirming and feeble attempts at justification of the unjustifiable at face value.
In regards to extradition clearly it was a real threat to the McCann's given the legal team they assembled. They should have spoken to you, you could have cleared it up without the need for paying for Pinochet's extradition lawyer. You could have saved the Find Madeline fund a substantial amount of money.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2014, 11:10:23 AM
Clarence Mitchell publicly stated that their lawyers would block it.
So you're quoting the Mirror, quoting the Sunday People.... Yeah...
Where in this statement does CM say that lawyers would block them returning for a reconstruction? What's the context of this quote? Answering a question from a hack as to whether they intended to return to PdL at some point to visit the place / friends or for a reconstruction?
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.
Their lawyers would block it anyway.
"But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently.
"They have discussed the possibility of returning but nothing has yet been agreed."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kate-and-gerry-mccann-to-be-cleared-1651964#ixzz34K7ai0E4 Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 11:12:22 AM
What context do you believe Mitchell was talking about then? He gave that quote some two weeks before the official email requests came through to participate, and in relation to a review of the case.
Do you think he was referring to a "return to Portugal" for some more group tennis and jogging?
It's blatantly obvious what he was referring to, because at that point that he gave the quote the reconstruction was the only issue in town after the Rogatories.
Now you can be a flat earther if you wish but that won't wash with people who have open minds and brains who won't take someone's squirming and feeble attempts at justification of the unjustifiable at face value.
In regards to extradition clearly it was a real threat to the McCann's given the legal team they assembled. They should have spoken to you, you could have cleared it up without the need for paying for Pinochet's extradition lawyer. You could have saved the Find Madeline fund a substantial amount of money.
Yep, there might have been a threat of Extradition, if Amaral's Thesis had ever been given house room. But it never was, because there was never any evidence.
This in the light of the fact that a British man who was cleared of Murder by a Portuguese Court of a man who was still alive, was then issued with an Extradition Warrant some several years later.
What would you do? Consult a Lawyer or just go back?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2014, 11:14:07 AM
"If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.Their lawyers would block it anyway.But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently."
Don't you understand?
Where is he quoted as saying that they wouldn't return for a reconstruction because the lawyers would block it?
And you're quoting the Mirror quoting the Sunday People... less known for serious journalism than copying and pasting the equivalent of soundbites, whatever the context.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2014, 11:51:31 AM
If this is the case then how have SY managed it WITHOUT the members of the group? It is fairly logical to suggest that as a collective there would be a greater chance of getting to the bottom of any inconsistencies. Do you not agree or do you prefer SY's method?
Because of this statement from DCI Redwood:
''We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timelines and there is clearly opportunity for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive.'' Unquote.
How could an accurate physical recon. take place if people could only give approximate times of their movements?
I ask again.
How would Jez Wilkins know what time to set out - if didn't know the exact time to begin with, What if he guessed the wrong time and because he was a couple of minutes out - he missed Gerry altogether? How would the PJ advise him to proceed if he pointed this out to them?
The same applies to other witnesses who no doubt would be asking the same question about which part of their approximate times they gave in their statements they should use. What would the PJ say to them?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 01:21:13 PM
So you're quoting the Mirror, quoting the Sunday People.... Yeah...
Where in this statement does CM say that lawyers would block them returning for a reconstruction? What's the context of this quote? Answering a question from a hack as to whether they intended to return to PdL at some point to visit the place / friends or for a reconstruction?
The McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "If they returned now to Portugal it would be a distraction and would put pressure on police.
Their lawyers would block it anyway.
"But once their arguido status has been lifted, they will feel differently.
"They have discussed the possibility of returning but nothing has yet been agreed."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/kate-and-gerry-mccann-to-be-cleared-1651964#ixzz34K7ai0E4 Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook
Desperation! Look at the date of the article. 6th April. Mitchell quoted directly by the paper not as a "source close to the family" or a "pal" but by name.
The first emails started being exchanged on the 20th April some two weeks later to arrange the reconstitution and whilst there is no paper trail its probably safe to assume discussions took place before the 20th.
Given that they would have to go back to Portugal to perform the reconstruction Mitchell saying their lawyers would block any move to return to Portugal "now" is by definition a rejection of taking part in the reconstruction, because if your lawyers block you going back to Portugal they are blocking you from taking part in the reconstruction that is being held in that country aren't they?
Deary me.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 01:22:31 PM
''We have conducted a forensic analysis of the timelines and there is clearly opportunity for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive.'' Unquote.
How could an accurate physical recon. take place if people could only give approximate times of their movements?
I ask again.
How would Jez Wilkins know what time to set out - if didn't know the exact time to begin with, What if he guessed the wrong time and because he was a couple of minutes out - he missed Gerry altogether? How would the PJ advise him to proceed if he pointed this out to them?
The same applies to other witnesses who no doubt would be asking the same question about which part of their approximate times they gave in their statements they should use. What would the PJ say to them?
Benice
Just because you don't know how or can't see the merits of why is neither here nor there in the scheme of things.
This is a diligence which is in the Penal Code because clearly the Portuguese feel there is some benefit in these types of practices actually helping an investigation move forward.
They are professional investigators and will have done this kind of thing before.
It's a bit disingenuous of you to be questioning and second guessing why it was asked for, how it would have worked and what the benefit was given you are not Portuguese nor a detective.
Leave it to the experts, just go along with it, and everything else asked, to help keep the search for your missing child alive.
As Ferryman has kindly pointed out the friends refusal to take part coupled with Mitchell's statement that the McCann's lawyers would block their return to Portugal PREVENTED the Portuguese from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY say they have found 7 years later.
That's the real killer blow which has come out of this thread.
I am still gobsmacked by the significance of it and surprised that it hasn't come up before.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 03:02:23 PM
Just because you don't know how or can't see the merits of why is neither here nor there in the scheme of things.
This is a diligence which is in the Penal Code because clearly the Portuguese feel there is some benefit in these types of practices actually helping an investigation move forward.
They are professional investigators and will have done this kind of thing before.
It's a bit disingenuous of you to be questioning and second guessing why it was asked for, how it would have worked and what the benefit was given you are not Portuguese nor a detective.
Leave it to the experts, just go along with it, and everything else asked, to help keep the search for your missing child alive.
As Ferryman has kindly pointed out the friends refusal to take part coupled with Mitchell's statement that the McCann's lawyers would block their return to Portugal PREVENTED the Portuguese from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY say they have found 7 years later.
That's the real killer blow which has come out of this thread.
I am still gobsmacked by the significance of it and surprised that it hasn't come up before.
Can you explain to me why Amaral refused to do a reconstruction in the beginning when it might have been of some help?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 11, 2014, 03:04:50 PM
Just because you don't know how or can't see the merits of why is neither here nor there in the scheme of things.
This is a diligence which is in the Penal Code because clearly the Portuguese feel there is some benefit in these types of practices actually helping an investigation move forward.
They are professional investigators and will have done this kind of thing before.
It's a bit disingenuous of you to be questioning and second guessing why it was asked for, how it would have worked and what the benefit was given you are not Portuguese nor a detective.
Leave it to the experts, just go along with it, and everything else asked, to help keep the search for your missing child alive.
As Ferryman has kindly pointed out the friends refusal to take part coupled with Mitchell's statement that the McCann's lawyers would block their return to Portugal PREVENTED the Portuguese from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY say they have found 7 years later.
That's the real killer blow which has come out of this thread.
I am still gobsmacked by the significance of it and surprised that it hasn't come up before.
There was no impediment involved when Dr Amaral conducted a reconstruction for his documentary on Portuguese television.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2014, 03:06:31 PM
Can you explain to me why Amaral refused to do a reconstruction in the beginning when it might have been of some help?
You are confusing a Portuguese penal code reconstitution with a Crime watch style TV reconstruction.
They are not the same thing, despite what a certain spokesman tried to claim during the period that the PJ were trying to arrange their reconstitution.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2014, 03:11:08 PM
You are confusing a Portuguese penal code reconstitution with a Crime watch style TV reconstruction.
They are not the same thing, despite what a certain spokesman tried to claim during the period that the PJ were trying to arrange their reconstitution.
The alleged purpose of a "reconstitution" is to determine guilt or innocence.
Mission impossible ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2014, 03:13:14 PM
Just because you don't know how or can't see the merits of why is neither here nor there in the scheme of things.
This is a diligence which is in the Penal Code because clearly the Portuguese feel there is some benefit in these types of practices actually helping an investigation move forward.
They are professional investigators and will have done this kind of thing before.
It's a bit disingenuous of you to be questioning and second guessing why it was asked for, how it would have worked and what the benefit was given you are not Portuguese nor a detective.
Leave it to the experts, just go along with it, and everything else asked, to help keep the search for your missing child alive.
As Ferryman has kindly pointed out the friends refusal to take part coupled with Mitchell's statement that the McCann's lawyers would block their return to Portugal PREVENTED the Portuguese from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY say they have found 7 years later.
That's the real killer blow which has come out of this thread.
I am still gobsmacked by the significance of it and surprised that it hasn't come up before.
On what basis do you claim that the Portuguese investigators were experts...as I understand amaral had almost no experience of a crime of this kind...unless you count the cipriano case where amaral received a criminal conviction for his role in the case...hardly the mark of an expert....as I understand the team were woefully inexperienced
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 11, 2014, 03:13:59 PM
You are confusing a Portuguese penal code reconstitution with a Crime watch style TV reconstruction.
They are not the same thing, despite what a certain spokesman tried to claim during the period that the PJ were trying to arrange their reconstitution.
So why didn't Amaral arrange a Reconstitution. He was in charge, after all. And at the beginning was the time to do it. A year later was far too late.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on June 11, 2014, 03:16:51 PM
So why didn't Amaral arrange a Reconstitution. He was in charge, after all. And at the beginning was the time to do it. A year later was far too late.
Because, the need for the reconstitution came about as a result of the discrepancies in statements and Rogatories over that year period.
Here's how Rebelo puts it:
Quote
1 - Why do the PJ want them to take part in the re-enactment?
The PJ wants them to take part in the re-enactment because they were the ones who experienced the situation. Therefore they are in the best conditions to reproduce it.
2 - What is the aim, what are the PJ trying to achieve with the re-enactment?
The PJ is trying to find out, with accuracy, the circumstances of the events occurred, using for that purpose the exact place of events and the same persons who took part in it.
It's hard for the police to find the window of opportunity when the stories keep changing and don't match up.
It's taken the best part of what, 2 to 3 years for SY to find it, and you're criticising the PJ for taking a year??
Really?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 03:44:05 PM
Because, the need for the reconstitution came about as a result of the discrepancies in statements and Rogatories over that year period.
Here's how Rebelo puts it:
It's hard for the police to find the window of opportunity when the stories keep changing and don't match up.
It's taken the best part of what, 2 to 3 years for SY to find it, and you're criticising the PJ for taking a year??
Really?
your claim that the PJ are experts shows how little you understand the real facts in this case. Had they really been experts carried out a proper investigation we would not be here now. They have been described as incompetent and their investigation "bungled" for good raeson
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 11, 2014, 04:07:30 PM
When rebelo took over there were articles in the Portuguese press from which the Mail ran ana rticle which included....
This was then reported in the Daily Mail on the 22nd October 2007, where the article said:
Meanwhile, a police source quoted in a Portuguese newspaper said: “There was important material lying all over the place that hadn’t been considered by investigators.
“A lot of key information was discarded. The whole process is being reviewed. Putting all the papers in order has been a massive task.”
Officers have been working round-the-clock to log on to a computer all information relating to the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine from the holiday complex in May.
So these are your experts...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 04:13:19 PM
You can call it what you like but it still could have been done in the beginning.
And where in that statement does Rebelo mention discrepancies?
It's a good job they didn't do it at the start, it would have been a huge waste of time, given the way the statements changed or "evolved" over time.
Which door would Gerry MCann have walked in? What time would the guys have left the tennis after the Paraiso?
So many changes they'd have been running round like extras from a Benny Hill set.
What do you think Rebelo means when he states it would be to determine what happened and when, when he already has numerous statements and Rogatories from the group?
Fortunately a real Judge, looking at the self same evidence used in a real court the word "incongruous and contradictory" to describe the statements.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on June 11, 2014, 04:18:14 PM
Just because you don't know how or can't see the merits of why is neither here nor there in the scheme of things.
This is a diligence which is in the Penal Code because clearly the Portuguese feel there is some benefit in these types of practices actually helping an investigation move forward.
They are professional investigators and will have done this kind of thing before.
It's a bit disingenuous of you to be questioning and second guessing why it was asked for, how it would have worked and what the benefit was given you are not Portuguese nor a detective.
Leave it to the experts, just go along with it, and everything else asked, to help keep the search for your missing child alive.
As Ferryman has kindly pointed out the friends refusal to take part coupled with Mitchell's statement that the McCann's lawyers would block their return to Portugal PREVENTED the Portuguese from discovering the same window of opportunity in the timelines that SY say they have found 7 years later.
That's the real killer blow which has come out of this thread.
I am still gobsmacked by the significance of it and surprised that it hasn't come up before.
On the contrary I can see the merits of any recon- if the participants know what time they did things. In this case they don't know - so the chances of their achieving an accurate reproduction of events which took place - covering a period of several hours - 12 months previous - are practically zero IMO. There are too many people and too many possible permutations of times involved for that to happen.
As 'accuracy' of timing is absolutely vital in order to replicate this particular recon. and that is the one thing the 10 people involved cannot provide - then it is clearly asking for the impossible IMO.
It's all very easy to keep going on and on about the recon. but not so easy when people are asked to describe how this recon would actually be carried out in practical terms.
If it was easy - you would be able to answer my questions regarding the problems posed by the lack of accurate times - the impact of which would be to reduce to virtually nil - any chance of an accurate recon being achievable - and in the light of that - what measures the group/PJ could take to deal with that massive problem.
Remember- the group were only to be given one go at this recon.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 04:18:49 PM
When rebelo took over there were articles in the Portuguese press from which the Mail ran ana rticle which included....
This was then reported in the Daily Mail on the 22nd October 2007, where the article said:
Meanwhile, a police source quoted in a Portuguese newspaper said: “There was important material lying all over the place that hadn’t been considered by investigators.
“A lot of key information was discarded. The whole process is being reviewed. Putting all the papers in order has been a massive task.”
Officers have been working round-the-clock to log on to a computer all information relating to the disappearance of four-year-old Madeleine from the holiday complex in May.
So these are your experts...
You do know that unnamed sources are usually the work of the journalist themselves to back up the thrust of their article don't you, or more likely in this case the work of a certain pink hued spokesman who fed a story to support his clients and spun it accordingly?
Now if you could provide a direct attributable link, to maybe SY saying this, now we'd be talking.
Instead you're drivelling on and relying on "unnamed sources" in newspapers.
Credibility red flag raised!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 11, 2014, 04:19:58 PM
It's a good job they didn't do it at the start, it would have been a huge waste of time, given the way the statements changed or "evolved" over time.
Which door would Gerry MCann have walked in? What time would the guys have left the tennis after the Paraiso?
So many changes they'd have been running round like extras from a Benny Hill set.
What do you think Rebelo means when he states it would be to determine what happened and when, when he already has numerous statements and Rogatories from the group?
Fortunately a real Judge, looking at the self same evidence used in a real court the word "incongruous and contradictory" to describe the statements.
According to what I have read, Rebelo was so busy cleaning up the mess left by Amaral, and trying to make sense of what Amaral thought was important or not, that he didn't have time for anything else. Tis no wonder to me that Rebelo was confused.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2014, 04:39:52 PM
Desperation! Look at the date of the article. 6th April. Mitchell quoted directly by the paper not as a "source close to the family" or a "pal" but by name.
The first emails started being exchanged on the 20th April some two weeks later to arrange the reconstitution and whilst there is no paper trail its probably safe to assume discussions took place before the 20th.
Given that they would have to go back to Portugal to perform the reconstruction Mitchell saying their lawyers would block any move to return to Portugal "now" is by definition a rejection of taking part in the reconstruction, because if your lawyers block you going back to Portugal they are blocking you from taking part in the reconstruction that is being held in that country aren't they?
Deary me.
So you find the Mirror quoting the Sunday People with a quote that may or may not have been relevant to whatever the hack decided to file as copy that night to be a reliable source?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 04:41:28 PM
According to what I have read, Rebelo was so busy cleaning up the mess left by Amaral, and trying to make sense of what Amaral thought was important or not, that he didn't have time for anything else. Tis no wonder to me that Rebelo was confused.
I'm sure you have "read" it somewhere but just because you read it somewhere doesn't mean it is true, does it?
I'm sure, and the Judge in the libel case agrees with me that the confusion was caused by the "incongruous" and "contradictory" statements provided.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 04:43:04 PM
So you find the Mirror quoting the Sunday People with a quote that may or may not have been relevant to whatever the hack decided to file as copy that night to be a reliable source?
Given there is a quoted and verifiable name attached to the quote, yes.
Has Clarence ever come out and asked for it to be retracted or stated he didn't say it?
The answer you're looking for is "no".
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2014, 04:54:41 PM
Given there is a quoted and verifiable name attached to the quote, yes.
Has Clarence ever come out and asked for it to be retracted or stated he didn't say it?
The answer you're looking for is "no".
I thought quoting the Mirror was bad enough, but quoting the Mirror quoting the Sunday People as a reliable source of all things...
There is nothing in that quote that mentions the reconstruction, unless you can find a different direct quote from elsewhere in which CM specifically says that the lawyers would block the McCanns from going back to Portugal to take part in a reconstruction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2014, 05:02:03 PM
You are confusing a Portuguese penal code reconstitution with a Crime watch style TV reconstruction.
They are not the same thing, despite what a certain spokesman tried to claim during the period that the PJ were trying to arrange their reconstitution.
What was to stop Amaral & co organising a "Portuguese penal code reconstitution" in early-mid May 2007 when more participants would have been there, including OC staff? It could have been over and done with over 7 years ago.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 11, 2014, 05:06:34 PM
I thought quoting the Mirror was bad enough, but quoting the Mirror quoting the Sunday People as a reliable source of all things...
There is nothing in that quote that mentions the reconstruction, unless you can find a different direct quote from elsewhere in which CM specifically says that the lawyers would block the McCanns from going back to Portugal to take part in a reconstruction.
Are you being pedantic? Already clearly explained the dates and timings in several pages.
Are you saying that Clarence Mitchell didn't say it even though he is quoted by two newspapers as saying it in an article written by Tom Carlin?
Also you do know the People and the Mirror are the same newspapers owned by the same people?
Are you intent on becoming a flat earther simply to try and desperately cling on to your point, despite it being shown as incorrect?
I expected more from you.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on June 11, 2014, 05:41:20 PM
Are you being pedantic? Already clearly explained the dates and timings in several pages.
Are you saying that Clarence Mitchell didn't say it even though he is quoted by two newspapers as saying it in an article written by Tom Carlin?
Also you do know the People and the Mirror are the same newspapers owned by the same people?
Are you intent on becoming a flat earther simply to try and desperately cling on to your point, despite it being shown as incorrect?
I expected more from you.
Not at all. If CM had clearly stated that lawyers would have blocked the McCanns from going back to PT for a reconstitution/reconstruction, I would have wondered if that was even possible as they were supposedly under a legal obligation to do so.
As it is, I'm still waiting for clarification beyond quotes of quotes of tabloids in which the actual quote made no such direct reference.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 08:08:30 PM
This is the most pathetic excuse ever. Hard-working, tenacious policemen and women do not give up on an investigation simply because their chief suspects don't co-operate exactly the way they expect them to.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2014, 08:10:03 PM
This is the most pathetic excuse ever. Hard-working, tenacious policemen and women do not give up on an investigation simply because their chief suspects don't co-operate exactly the way they expect them to.
Unless those suspects are protected.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 13, 2014, 08:12:40 PM
This is the most pathetic excuse ever. Hard-working, tenacious policemen and women do not give up on an investigation simply because their chief suspects don't co-operate exactly the way they expect them to.
Er no. They didn't co-operate full stop, not "exactly the way they expect them to".
Refusing to take part is NOT "co-operate exactly the way they expect them to", is it Alfred?
As was pointed out the other day had they done so the PJ could have discovered the same window of opportunity for abduction SY did 7 years later by forensically examining the time line with the actual witnesses involved.
The reconstitution would have been a more accurate (given the witnesses themselves were actually involved in it) forensic analysis than SY could perform with computers 7 years later.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 08:16:58 PM
Er no. They didn't co-operate full stop, not "exactly the way they expect them to".
Refusing to take part is NOT "co-operate exactly the way they expect them to", is it Alfred?
As was pointed out the other day had they done so the PJ could have discovered the same window of opportunity for abduction SY did 7 years later by forensically examining the time line with the actual witnesses involved.
the reconstitution would have been a more accurate (given the witnesses themselves were actually involved in it).
So, you think if a chief suspect in a case refuses to co-operate in an investigation then those investigating the case are well within their rights to just give up do you? Utterly pathetic!!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 08:21:03 PM
So, you think if a chief suspect in a case refuses to co-operate in an investigation then those investigating the case are well within their rights to just give up do you? Utterly pathetic!!
Can you tell me what else they could do, given that they weren't certain which door Gerry McCann entered at 9:05, what time the men actually finished playing tennis on the night of the 3rd or if the shutter of the patio door that they claimed they entered through was actually up or down or not?
Forget about them being suspects given such uncertainty how could they find leads that anyone else could get in or out 5A or not?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2014, 08:22:38 PM
So, you think if a chief suspect in a case refuses to co-operate in an investigation then those investigating the case are well within their rights to just give up do you? Utterly pathetic!!
People don't cooperate unless they have something to hide.
Especially if they are keen to find their missing daughter.
Or do you know different ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 08:23:58 PM
What is utterly pathetic, given such uncertaities, is the fact that the Tapas lot weren't prepared to come back to Portugal to allow the PJ to forensically examine their time lines to find the same window of opportunity SY claim they found some 7 years later.
What is happening now with SY could have happened 7 years ago had they co-operated.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 08:31:38 PM
What is utterly pathetic, given such uncertaities, is the fact that the Tapas lot weren't prepared to come back to Portugal to allow the PJ to forensically examine their time lines to find the same window of opportunity SY claim they found some 7 years later.
What is happening now with SY could have happened 7 years ago had they co-operated.
. What enabled Sy to forensicslly examine the timeline that was denied the PJ then?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 08:34:19 PM
But i thought you supporters were of the opinion SY were professional super men?
Well you were wrong then. That said I do think the Met has cleaned up its act somewhat since then, in large part as a result of past failings such as the Lawrence case. hopefully the PJ has learnt from its many mistakes in the McCann case too.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 08:40:42 PM
WTF is 7 years computational power? And no, I'm not familiar with Moore's Law. I do know you are making pathetic excuses for the PJ though.
Well, there you go, some bedtime reading for you.
All you need to worry about is the ends not the means.
The reconstitution would have provided the same forensic analysis of the time lines SY claim they have investigated but with the added advantage of actually having the participants being able to explain themselves.
Denied to the PJ 7 years ago by the so called "friends" of the missing childs family.
Utterly despicable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 08:44:45 PM
WTF is 7 years computational power? And no, I'm not familiar with Moore's Law. I do know you are making pathetic excuses for the PJ though.
You don't know about SY's computer system HOLMES or Moore's law relating to increasing computational power yet you state i'm making "pathetic excuses for the PJ".
How can you say that when you don't know what the "excuses" you think I'm making actually relate to?
Oh dear, how embarrassing for you.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2014, 08:49:23 PM
What is utterly pathetic, given such uncertaities, is the fact that the Tapas lot weren't prepared to come back to Portugal to allow the PJ to forensically examine their time lines to find the same window of opportunity SY claim they found some 7 years later.
What is happening now with SY could have happened 7 years ago had they co-operated.
I doubt that very much indeed.
I would remind you that the present Portuguese and British investigations did not pick up from where the original investigation left off.
The Met and the PJ went back to the very beginning – in effect discarding the original investigation which had reached an impasse.
Separately they reached a very different conclusion from Dr Amaral and instigated new avenues of inquiry which had been largely ignored as they did not point to the Drs McCann.
The ground work had been done by the GNR and PJ officers but only that which might have implicated Madeleine’s parents and the Tapas group was investigated with any vigour.
This and not Dr Kate McCann’s exercise of her right not to answer the 48 questions obstructed the search for Madeleine.
This is verified as both the Met and PJ have stated that the Drs McCann are not persons of interest and both authorities are following a programme dictated by the evidence already in the files and possibly fresh information from appeals.
Both authorities are looking for a stranger to Madeleine and her family.
Meanwhile, at a remove of seven years, Dr Amaral still stands resolutely by his original theory.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 08:50:36 PM
You don't know about SY's computer system HOLMES or Moore's law relating to increasing computational pwoer yet you state i'm making "pathetic excuses for the PJ".
How can you say that when you don't know what the "excuses" you think I'm making actually relate to?
Oh dear, how embarrassing for you.
Of course I know about HOLMES, and nothing changes the fact that you are making pathetic excuses for the PJ. What sort of police force simply gives up because its suspects won't attend a reconstruction? How often are suspects in the UK required to attend reconstructions, and how do the police here ever manage to solve cases if their suspects don't take part in recomstructions?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 09:05:40 PM
I would remind you that the present Portuguese and British investigations did not pick up from where the original investigation left off.
The Met and the PJ went back to the very beginning – in effect discarding the original investigation which had reached an impasse.
Separately they reached a very different conclusion from Dr Amaral and instigated new avenues of inquiry which had been largely ignored as they did not point to the Drs McCann.
The ground work had been done by the GNR and PJ officers but only that which might have implicated Madeleine’s parents and the Tapas group was investigated with any vigour.
This and not Dr Kate McCann’s exercise of her right not to answer the 48 questions obstructed the search for Madeleine.
This is verified as both the Met and PJ have stated that the Drs McCann are not persons of interest and both authorities are following a programme dictated by the evidence already in the files and possibly fresh information from appeals.
Both authorities are looking for a stranger to Madeleine and her family.
Meanwhile, at a remove of seven years, Dr Amaral still stands resolutely by his original theory.
Well you would be wrong then.
Irrespective of what's been investigated since the times lines provided by the participants have not changed one iota since 2007.
Bearing in mind the aim of the reconstitution was:
Quote
The PJ is trying to find out, with accuracy, the circumstances of the events occurred, using for that purpose the exact place of events and the same persons who took part in it.
This is a forensic analysis of their timelines with them involved with the PJ in acting out their statements to find out what occurred that evening.
This was in essence a real time forensic analysis of their timelines using the participants themselves. This can only be seen as a far better option than trying to get a computer to do it 7 years later.
Denied to the PJ by the refusal of the group (see the emails) and the lawyers (see Mitchell's publicly quoted statement that "their lawyers would block it anyway".
Not only did it leave Madeline to her fate for 7 years it also ensured the McCann's were unable to demonstrate their innocence to the investigation.
How utterly contemptible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 09:11:21 PM
Of course I know about HOLMES, and nothing changes the fact that you are making pathetic excuses for the PJ. What sort of police force simply gives up because its suspects won't attend a reconstruction? How often are suspects in the UK required to attend reconstructions, and how do the police here ever manage to solve cases if their suspects don't take part in recomstructions?
So why didn't you know HOLMES was a computer then?
Are you now saying that they should have fabricated evidence against the group to ensure they could get their EAW's to force them to come back to Portugal to perform the reconstitution?
Make your mind up please. You're criticising the PJ for now doing things by the book!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 13, 2014, 09:15:18 PM
I'd still rather go with the reconstitution actually to see the whites of peoples eyes.
The methods though matter not one jot.
It's the same end result which is key.
"I'd still rather go with the reconstitution actually to see the whites of peoples eyes."
Back in 2007 Dr Amaral did not agree with you. When he had the option to do so - he did not hold a reconstruction.
<< SNIP >> 44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 13, 2014, 09:19:18 PM
"I'd still rather go with the reconstitution actually to see the whites of peoples eyes."
Back in 2007 Dr Amaral did not agree with you. When he had the option to do so - he did not hold a reconstruction.
<< SNIP >> 44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
As per normal, you are making excuses for the inexcusable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 09:22:29 PM
"I'd still rather go with the reconstitution actually to see the whites of peoples eyes."
Back in 2007 Dr Amaral did not agree with you. When he had the option to do so - he did not hold a reconstruction.
<< SNIP >> 44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
The reconstitution under Rebelo was necessary because the changes to stories and timelines over that 11 month period upto and including the Rogatories meant the PJ couldn't possibly construct anything approaching an accurate timeline.
It's a good job Amaral didn't have one, what a waste of time. Would the men have come back form the tennis at 6:00, 7:00 or 8:00 and Rachael still hadn't changed her story that the McCann's patio shutter was down.
How on earth could anything useful have come out of such unmitigated madness?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 09:27:23 PM
So why didn't you know HOLMES was a computer then?
Are you now saying that they should have fabricated evidence against the group to ensure they could get their EAW's to force them to come back to Portugal to perform the reconstitution?
Make your mind up please. You're criticising the PJ for now doing things by the book!
What ARE you on about???
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 09:31:56 PM
What sort of police force simply gives up because its suspects won't attend a reconstruction?
If investigations cannot find sufficient evidence to generate European Arrest Warrants to make suspects participate then there is very little they can do other than request they take part.
You are saying that the PJ should not have given up, which given the lack of firm evidence, implies they should have somehow fabricated evidence to ensure they could obtain EAW's to force them to participate.
The PJ didn't do that and yet you still criticise them.
Do keep up Alfred.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 09:35:36 PM
If investigations cannot find sufficient evidence to generate European Arrest Warrants to make suspects participate then there is very little they can do other than request they take part.
You are saying that the PJ should not have given up, which given the lack of firm evidence, implies they should have somehow fabricated evidence to ensure they could obtain EAW's to force them to participate.
The PJ didn't do that and yet you still criticise them.
Do keep up Alfred.
Oh dear you have completely lost the plot. How you can infer all that from what I wrote is quite beyond me. A reconstruction of a crime involving the chief suspects is not the b all and end all of an investigation. It shouldn't all come to a grinding halt simply because a reconstruction is not possible. Do you not agree with this? Or do you think suspects can only be brought to justice once they have taken part in a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:00:29 PM
Oh dear you have completely lost the plot. How you can infer all that from what I wrote is quite beyond me. A reconstruction of a crime involving the chief suspects is not the b all and end all of an investigation. It shouldn't all come to a grinding halt simply because a reconstruction is not possible. Do you not agree with this? Or do you think suspects can only be brought to justice once they have taken part in a reconstruction?
No i haven't, maybe we should put it down to the time of day, and may i charitably suggest you are a little tired and emotional.
There was no credible evidence generated other than the evidence from the last people to see the child alive. Therefore in order to take the investigation forward they required the co-operation of those witnesses to give them the evidence, the timelines and the windows of opportunities to generate the leads.
They did not do that, there was nothing else credible to go on. They couldn't get a coherent story out of them.
Police work revolves around witness evidence, unravelling it and generating leads. That's impossible to do if the witnesses will not cooperate with you.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:05:56 PM
Yer, I'll go along with that. The PJ would have gone for A European Arrest Warrant if they thought they could get away with it. And they would have fabricated evidence. But as it was, The McCanns never refused to participate. So there you go.
Mitch Lang.
So why didn't they fabricate evidence to secure the EAW against them?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 10:06:05 PM
No i haven't, maybe we should put it down to the time of day, and may i charitably suggest you are a little tired and emotional.
There was no credible evidence generated other than the evidence from the last people to see the child alive. Therefore in order to take the investigation forward they required the co-operation of those witnesses to give them the evidence, the timelines and the windows of opportunities to generate the leads.
They did not do that, there was nothing else credible to go on. They couldn't get a coherent story out of them.
Police work revolves around witness evidence, unravelling it and generating leads. That's impossible to do if the witnesses will not cooperate with you.
So, are you saying that the only way to solve crimes is to have all witnesses and suspects take part in a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:08:02 PM
If investigations cannot find sufficient evidence to generate European Arrest Warrants to make suspects participate then there is very little they can do other than request they take part.
Yes!
And evidence required to raise an EAW is pretty slender.
So if evidence required is so slender, and if as you, Eleanor and Alfred so dearly believe, the PJ were seeking to fit them up why didn't the Pj fabricate the evidence to secure the EAW?
You think the PJ were trying to fit them up, yet when they wanted them to return to Portugal under EAW, the PJ DID NOT do so.
Why do you think that is?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 10:09:52 PM
Well you too would have been guilty of abandoning your supposedly "abducted by paedophiles" child to her fate by sabotaging the investigation looking into her disappearance.
You too would have put your own self preservation over and above ensuring your child was rescued from the hellish lair she was held in by paedophile perpetrators.
Shame on you as well.
The PJ didn't believe Madeleine was taken by a paedophile though, so please explain how the McCanns and friends taking part in a reconstruction would have saved Madeleine from her fate?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:12:00 PM
Once again Ferryman you jump in to prove my point.
You did the other day about the refusal to co-operate in the reconstitution essentially meaning the Tapas 9 prevented the PJ from discovering the same window of opportunity SY found 7 years later.
You have now helped prove my case by stating that despite the evidential requirement for EAW's being slim, and despite as you three firmly believe the PJ were seeking to fit up the Mccann's, the PJ did not fit them up to secure an EAW.
So if the PJ were as bent as you imply why didn't the PJ fit up the evidence to get them the EAW's they so badly wanted?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:12:27 PM
The PJ didn't believe Madeleine was taken by a paedophile though, so please explain how the McCanns and friends taking part in a reconstruction would have saved Madeleine from her fate?
No but the McCann's did believe that, and it was their decision not to participate which left Madeline to the fate they thought she had suffered.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 10:17:13 PM
No but the McCann's did believe that, and it was their decision not to participate which left Madeline to the fate they thought she had suffered.
Wrong. What they did was they completely lost faith in the PJ ever getting their arses in gear and actually trying to find Madeleine and instead shelled out hundreds of thousands of pounds to get their own investigators to try and find her instead. Perfectly understandable in the circumstances.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:22:59 PM
Wrong. What they did was they completely lost faith in the PJ ever getting their arses in gear and actually trying to find Madeleine and instead shelled out hundreds of thousands of pounds to get their own investigators to try and find her instead. Perfectly understandable in the circumstances.
No.
You saying "wrong" doesn't make it so.
The known facts are:
The Mccann's believed the child was abducted The mcCann's were told their non co-operation would damage the investigation into their daughter and Kate stated in the affirmative. They still refused to co-operate and the investigation was closed with the child still missing, and as far as the McCann's were concered still held by an abductor.
"losing faith" is pathetic excuse for accepting that you must leave your daughter to her fate even if that fate was a paedophile.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 13, 2014, 10:28:43 PM
The Mccann's believed the child was abducted The mcCann's were told their non co-operation would damage the investigation into their daughter and Kate stated in the affirmative. They still refused to co-operate and the investigation was closed with the child still missing, and as far as the McCann's were concered still held by an abductor.
"losing faith" is pathetic excuse for accepting that you must leave your daughter to her fate even if that fate was a paedophile.
But they didn't abandon their daughter. They have spent the last 7 years of their lives keeping her profile high, spending thousands on detectives, etc. Perhaps you could explain why the McCanns should have had confidence and faith in the PJ in September 2007?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:45:25 PM
Too bloody true I would. The McCanns were getting nowhere by staying in Portugal. They were being fitted up by that disgraced copper. You know, the one who covered up the torture of the mother of another missing child. Shame on him.
I suppose that Kate was just so devastated that she wasn't thinking straight. And Gerry was trying to be kind to her. Many of us might have wished for a husband and father who was as good as he was.
Well I'm just glad you're not my mother then. As i say to choose self preservation based on conspiracy loon nonsense and ludicrous notions of being "fitting up" over making sure the investigation to find your child who you believe was taken by a paedophile remains looking for her.
As i have stated had the PJ wanted to fit them up, as you so vehemently believe, why did they not do that to secure the EAW's?
Can you answer that question please?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 10:48:02 PM
Good grief, i thought you knew about the case. It was expected that once the forensics came in and after they had fled to the Uk the PJ would seek to enforce European Arrest Warrants.
That is why the McCann's hired Pinochet's extradition lawyer.
If the PJ were fit up merchants why didn't they fit up the evidence to be able to secure EAW's to get the back to Portugal to force them to take part in the reconstitution?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on June 13, 2014, 11:03:08 PM
"I'd still rather go with the reconstitution actually to see the whites of peoples eyes."
Back in 2007 Dr Amaral did not agree with you. When he had the option to do so - he did not hold a reconstruction.
<< SNIP >> 44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible. The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
Now where in that quote does it say that that decision was Amaral's ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 13, 2014, 11:22:49 PM
Good grief, i thought you knew about the case. It was expected that once the forensics came in and after they had fled to the Uk the PJ would seek to enforce European Arrest Warrants.
That is why the McCann's hired Pinochet's extradition lawyer.
If the PJ were fit up merchants why didn't they fit up the evidence to be able to secure EAW's to get the back to Portugal to force them to take part in the reconstitution?
They did try. But unfortunately the friends of The McCanns were never made Arguidos. They were the ones who refused to return. And not The McCanns.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 11:34:27 PM
They did try. But unfortunately the friends of The McCanns were never made Arguidos. They were the ones who refused to return. And not The McCanns.
The McCann's official spokesman gave a named quote a newspaper saying their lawyers would block their return.
Lo and behold they did not return.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 13, 2014, 11:38:09 PM
Who knows what evidence would have been uncovered had they had to act out their statements in front of the PJ.
How would they explain Rachael's shutter closed moment swiftly followed by all and sundry going through said patio door whose metal shutter had apparently opened on its own and as if by magic.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2014, 12:52:28 AM
Yes it was. The statement was made two weeks before the requests for participation were sent.
Pinkie stated they would not return "now" as their lawyers would block it.
You cant go do a reconstitution if your lawyers wont let you go back to the country it is to be held in, can you?
So it was utterly in context.
Yet more rubbish. Don't you see that I don't care if The McCanns went back or not. It was always going to be a waste of time and money. And if it was so bloody important, why didn't Rebelo insist? EAW notwithstanding. Rebelo would have won that on the grounds that they were Arguidos.
Do you have absolutely no conception of EU Law?
The rest of The Taps Crew were not Arguidos, and could not be compelled to do anything. They didn't even have to submit themselves to Rogatory Interviews. It was their right to refuse.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on June 14, 2014, 03:50:37 AM
At the end of the day a child was missing but her parents and friends were not prepared to put their asses on a plane and return for a reconstitution of the events of 3rd May 2007. Regardless of the pathetic excuses put forward on their behalf, their ultimate refusal to cooperate must be seen for what it is.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 14, 2014, 04:36:28 AM
At the end of the day a child was missing but her parents and friends were not prepared to put their asses on a plane and return for a reconstitution of the events of 3rd May 2007. Regardless of the pathetic excuses put forward on their behalf, their ultimate refusal to cooperate must be seen for what it is.
And what is that?
Do you know that I try very hard not to gainsay you because I believe that Moderators deserve some respect. But you are now testing my patience. This is why I believe that Moderators should not express personal opinions.
The McCanns never refused to go, so don't give me a pile of bullshit slipped in with the other rubbish.
The friends of the McCanns refused to go. And you can think what you like about that. I might have gone if I was one of them, but I can promise you that it would have been of no use. I would probably have smacked someone if they dared to tell me of what I already knew.
The Mccanns did not dispose of their daughter's body, and it would be an insult to any of their friends to suggest that they helped to do this.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on June 14, 2014, 05:30:20 AM
They obviously felt that a reconstitution was a waste of time. Poor Madeleine...she deserved better.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 14, 2014, 07:24:17 AM
Do you know that I try very hard not to gainsay you because I believe that Moderators deserve some respect. But you are now testing my patience. This is why I believe that Moderators should not express personal opinions.
The McCanns never refused to go, so don't give me a pile of bullshit slipped in with the other rubbish.
The friends of the McCanns refused to go. And you can think what you like about that. I might have gone if I was one of them, but I can promise you that it would have been of no use. I would probably have smacked someone if they dared to tell me of what I already knew.
The Mccanns did not dispose of their daughter's body, and it would be an insult to any of their friends to suggest that they helped to do this.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
A bullshit reply.
They had every opportunity to return en masse.
Their employers would not object for obvious reasons.
As to what happened to Madeleine, YOU DON'T KNOW.
' I would probably have smacked someone if they dared to tell me of what I already knew.'
That would assume they would tell the truth.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 14, 2014, 08:01:50 AM
Do you know that I try very hard not to gainsay you because I believe that Moderators deserve some respect. But you are now testing my patience. This is why I believe that Moderators should not express personal opinions.
The McCanns never refused to go, so don't give me a pile of bullshit slipped in with the other rubbish.
The friends of the McCanns refused to go. And you can think what you like about that. I might have gone if I was one of them, but I can promise you that it would have been of no use. I would probably have smacked someone if they dared to tell me of what I already knew.
The Mccanns did not dispose of their daughter's body, and it would be an insult to any of their friends to suggest that they helped to do this.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
As i stated the other day. At least you can blame the lawyers for being the sh*ts here by them blocking their return.
Your position means it's their friends who are the sh*ts for leaving a child to her fate.
How damning
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 08:02:36 AM
At the end of the day a child was missing but her parents and friends were not prepared to put their asses on a plane and return for a reconstitution of the events of 3rd May 2007. Regardless of the pathetic excuses put forward on their behalf, their ultimate refusal to cooperate must be seen for what it is.
It is seen for what it is...the right thing to do as it would have served no purpose....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Albertini on June 14, 2014, 08:08:53 AM
Yet more rubbish. Don't you see that I don't care if The McCanns went back or not. It was always going to be a waste of time and money. And if it was so bloody important, why didn't Rebelo insist? EAW notwithstanding. Rebelo would have won that on the grounds that they were Arguidos.
Do you have absolutely no conception of EU Law?
The rest of The Taps Crew were not Arguidos, and could not be compelled to do anything. They didn't even have to submit themselves to Rogatory Interviews. It was their right to refuse.
No it's not rubbish. It's actually correct if you look at the dates of the comment and the dates of requests.
Rebelo could i believe insist the McCann's went back under their Arguido status. He had no power to insist the Tapas went back. As was stated he needed all of them over there in order to complete it.
If the PJ were so intent on fitting up why didn't they fabricate evidence against the people they needed back there? Why didn't they fabricate evidence against the Tapas lot to get what they wanted and get them over there as accessories?
Answer: because they had no intention, nor would they be allowed to fit anyone up.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on June 14, 2014, 08:13:15 AM
In view of the following quote - can someone explain how an accurate recon. could take place if the 10 participants could not give accurate times of when they did things to begin with?
b]Quote The PJ is trying to find out, with accuracy, the circumstances of the events occurred, using for that purpose the exact place of events and the same persons who took part in it. unquote[/b]
Unless JT got up from the table - 12 months later - at the exact same time she did on the 3rd, May and Gerry left the apartment at exactly the same time as he did on 3rd May and Jez faithfully reproduced his time of setting off on his walk on 3rd May - it's an impossible task imo.
We are talking about minutes and seconds being of vital importance here. They only had to be half a minute adrift with their estimates of what time they had set off - and Gerry could have already turned back into the OC before Jez arrived - or Jayne could still be sitting at the table when Gerry returned, or - if she went too early she could have been up the top of the road before Gerry left the apartment - and before Jez arrived on the scene.
The chances by sheer coincidence of these three people reproducing their exact movements of the 3rd May with the required accuracy for them all to be in the places they said they were at the same time are miniscule.
In this particular recon. it was crucial that Gerry, Jez and Jayne remembered the exact times they had done things for an accurate reproduction of what they did on 3rd May 12 months earlier to be possible But they only knew approximately what time they did things - and so IMO there is not a snowballs chance in hell that the following 'aim' could be achieved in just one attempt.
b]Quote The PJ is trying to find out, with accuracy, the circumstances of the events occurred, using for that purpose the exact place of events and the same persons who took part in it. unquote[/b]
Say they had decided to return and one of the above scenarios happened - then bearing in mind that they were only to have one go at the recon. - what would the PJ's conclusions have been - particularly if Jez and JT had pointed out them before they started that they could not be sure of the times they did things?
Pure speculation on my part, but I think the PJ knew the group would not return - in fact they were banking on that being case. IMO it was a face-saving exercise which gave them a reason to shelve the case but shift some of the responsibility for that decision elsewhere.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 08:14:47 AM
No it's not rubbish. It's actually correct if you look at the dates of the comment and the dates of requests.
Rebelo could i believe insist the McCann's went back under their Arguido status. He had no power to insist the Tapas went back. As was stated he needed all of them over there in order to complete it.
If the PJ were so intent on fitting up why didn't they fabricate evidence against the people they needed back there? Why didn't they fabricate evidence against the Tapas lot to get what they wanted and get them over there as accessories?
Answer: because they had no intention, nor would they be allowed to fit anyone up.
It is purely a matter of opinion...I think the tapas group and the parents did the right thing ....you think they didn't...its just opinion. You say the PJ were experts...many others say they were totally inept
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 14, 2014, 08:33:27 AM
It is purely a matter of opinion...I think the tapas group and the parents did the right thing ....you think they didn't...its just opinion. You say the PJ were experts...many others say they were totally inept
'many others'
i.e. A few die hard backers of the mccanns.
When people are presented to the true picture of events, and not by the lies and half truths in the press, it becomes a different ball game.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 14, 2014, 08:47:38 AM
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on June 14, 2014, 12:33:48 PM
You have already stated that it is accepted the witness statements are notoriously inaccurate, that is why PT has reconstructions as part of its legal system. It allows the known statements to be put together and reasonable adjustments made to give a coherent sequence of events.
In view of the following quote - can someone explain how an accurate recon. could take place if the 10 participants could not give accurate times of when they did things to begin with?
b]Quote The PJ is trying to find out, with accuracy, the circumstances of the events occurred, using for that purpose the exact place of events and the same persons who took part in it. unquote[/b]
Unless JT got up from the table - 12 months later - at the exact same time she did on the 3rd, May and Gerry left the apartment at exactly the same time as he did on 3rd May and Jez faithfully reproduced his time of setting off on his walk on 3rd May - it's an impossible task imo.
We are talking about minutes and seconds being of vital importance here. They only had to be half a minute adrift with their estimates of what time they had set off - and Gerry could have already turned back into the OC before Jez arrived - or Jayne could still be sitting at the table when Gerry returned, or - if she went too early she could have been up the top of the road before Gerry left the apartment - and before Jez arrived on the scene.
The chances by sheer coincidence of these three people reproducing their exact movements of the 3rd May with the required accuracy for them all to be in the places they said they were at the same time are miniscule.
In this particular recon. it was crucial that Gerry, Jez and Jayne remembered the exact times they had done things for an accurate reproduction of what they did on 3rd May 12 months earlier to be possible But they only knew approximately what time they did things - and so IMO there is not a snowballs chance in hell that the following 'aim' could be achieved in just one attempt.
b]Quote The PJ is trying to find out, with accuracy, the circumstances of the events occurred, using for that purpose the exact place of events and the same persons who took part in it. unquote[/b]
Say they had decided to return and one of the above scenarios happened - then bearing in mind that they were only to have one go at the recon. - what would the PJ's conclusions have been - particularly if Jez and JT had pointed out them before they started that they could not be sure of the times they did things?
Pure speculation on my part, but I think the PJ knew the group would not return - in fact they were banking on that being case. IMO it was a face-saving exercise which gave them a reason to shelve the case but shift some of the responsibility for that decision elsewhere.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 15, 2014, 09:22:49 AM
the arguido status gave the mccanns the right to silence...how could they demonstrate their innocence whilst still retaining their right to silence...they couldn't. The AR should not have criticised them for maintain the right to silence
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 15, 2014, 09:26:41 AM
the arguido status gave the mccanns the right to silence...how could they demonstrate their innocence whilst still retaining their right to silence...they couldn't. The AR should not have criticised them for maintain the right to silence
Easy answer, they could have told the whole truth at the start.
IMO of course.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 15, 2014, 09:29:23 AM
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on June 21, 2014, 02:40:32 PM
There just is no excuse for failing to cooperate with the official investigation not to mention thereafter failing to participate in a reconstruction along with the other seven protagonists. From what I have seen of this case the only person who made any real effort to find Madeleine was Gonçalo Amaral and we all know where that got him. hmm...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2014, 02:48:32 PM
There just is no excuse for failing to cooperate with the official investigation not to mention thereafter failing to participate in a reconstruction along with the other seven protagonists. From what I have seen of this case the only person who made any real effort to find Madeleine was Gonçalo Amaral and we all know where that got him. hmm...
Nicely put.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on June 21, 2014, 02:51:09 PM
There just is no excuse for failing to cooperate with the official investigation not to mention thereafter failing to participate in a reconstruction along with the other seven protagonists. From what I have seen of this case the only person who made any real effort to find Madeleine was Gonçalo Amaral and we all know where that got him. hmm...
As for The Reconstruction. Neither of them refused to attend The Reconstruction. Neither of them were guilty of anything illegal.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on June 21, 2014, 04:28:14 PM
You stated that they were right not to attend the reconstruction. I was under the impression they agreed to attend but because the rest of the group had reneged there was no point?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 21, 2014, 08:44:28 PM
You stated that they were right not to attend the reconstruction. I was under the impression they agreed to attend but because the rest of the group had reneged there was no point?
the recon was cancelled because the other tapas members did not want to attend..and I don't blame them in the slightest
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 21, 2014, 08:46:09 PM
even innocent people can implicate themselves with contradictory statements..thats why they have a legal right to silence
Can you cite examples of that , rather then a well worn cliche ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 21, 2014, 09:25:27 PM
They refused to go back for a reconstruction because Gerry said it wouldn't be 'helpful'- however they did one in the UK for TV. All scripted of course!
SY can only work with the information they are given- if the information is wrong.. or lies are being told then... they will come up with the wrong answer!
From Joana Morias
Quote
«Portuguese Journalist: A reconstruction. If you volunteer to do a reconstruction wouldn't that open the case?
Gerry McCann: We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine.
Portuguese Journalist: That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
Gerry McCann: Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
Portuguese Journalist: You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
Gerry McCann: We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened.»unquote
Excerpt from: Exclusive Video: McCanns Press Conference, February 12, 2010
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on June 21, 2014, 09:28:47 PM
They refused to go back for a reconstruction because Gerry said it wouldn't be 'helpful'- however they did one in the UK for TV. All scripted of course!
SY can only work with the information they are given- if the information is wrong.. or lies are being told then... they will come up with the wrong answer!
From Joana Morias
Quote
«Portuguese Journalist: A reconstruction. If you volunteer to do a reconstruction wouldn't that open the case?
Gerry McCann: We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine.
Portuguese Journalist: That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
Gerry McCann: Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
Portuguese Journalist: You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
Gerry McCann: We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened.»unquote
Excerpt from: Exclusive Video: McCanns Press Conference, February 12, 2010
are you under another illusion...that the mccanns could ask for the case to be re opened..another myth
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 21, 2014, 09:37:57 PM
Gerry McCann: We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine.
Portuguese Journalist: That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
Gerry McCann: Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
Portuguese Journalist: You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
Gerry McCann:We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened.»unquote
They did a reconstruction which was scripted by TV STATION. REFUSED to go back to Portugal. he was offered the chance by the journalist to arrange it....
Not my words Or opinion.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2014, 01:02:57 AM
[ quote removed as speculative ]
Neither Dr Kate or Dr Gerry McCann refused - nor as arguidos would they have been able to refuse - to attend a reconstruction and neither did they seek to influence the tapas 7 who very much had their own opinions of the matter. I would refer you to their emails which document that.
The agreed date arranged for the reconstruction was changed by the prosecutor.
When the McCann lawyer requested another date because on the new date(s) he had to attend Court, to argue a case already rescheduled to suit the original date for the reconstruction to take place his request was refused.
Dr Kate McCann's willingness to participate in the reconstruction http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#oa9p139
Dr Gerry McCann's willingness to participate in the reconstruction http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/oa/OA1_9/o_apensoIX_vol_1_Page_130.jpg
From the Public Prosecutor, Portimao Circuit, Conclusion on 8-5-2008 - cancelling the agreed date and giving another http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#4267
Response Carlos Pinto de Abreu (Gerry McCann's lawyer) - notifying that he was unable to attend a reconstruction on the new dates as he was in Court having rescheduled the trial to suit the original agreed date. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#re4280
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2014, 08:00:42 PM
"It is my understanding that if Gerry and Kate do not participate in this process, then the decision will be that they will not attend."
Sorry, pathfinder, I do not understand your post.
As arguido and arguida they had no option not to participate it was condition of their status. A date was agreed, cancelled by the prosecutor and not reinstated.
Letters from the McCann lawyers are in the files.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 22, 2014, 09:43:31 PM
As arguido and arguida they had no option not to participate it was condition of their status. A date was agreed, cancelled by the prosecutor and not reinstated.
Letters from the McCann lawyers are in the files.
Don't be so naïve. You don't know what was said to the others in private.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on June 22, 2014, 10:25:41 PM
Don't be so naïve. You don't know what was said to the others in private.
I have read the private email correspondence between some of the Tapas 7 and the PJ.
I have followed the course of their suspicions being raised by the tone of that correspondence to the extent they took legal advice.
It is all readily available in the files as is the information that the first to refuse to return to Portugal was Jez Wilkins who was only a witness and nothing to do with the McCanns.
One wonders at a proposed reconstruction which excluded OC staff.
Indeed one wonders if their attendance was required for a reconstruction at all, as obviously they did ... the present PJ team and the Met had no difficulty at all in reconstructing events without their participation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 22, 2014, 11:00:30 PM
I have read the private email correspondence between some of the Tapas 7 and the PJ.
I have followed the course of their suspicions being raised by the tone of that correspondence to the extent they took legal advice.
It is all readily available in the files as is the information that the first to refuse to return to Portugal was Jez Wilkins who was only a witness and nothing to do with the McCanns.
One wonders at a proposed reconstruction which excluded OC staff.
Indeed one wonders if their attendance was required for a reconstruction at all, as obviously they did ... the present PJ team and the Met had no difficulty at all in reconstructing events without their participation.
OMG it would take a mastermind to defeat you 8-)(--)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Moderator on June 23, 2014, 12:08:45 PM
One would have thought that the parents of a genuinely abducted infant would make a public plea to those involved to take part in a reconstruction with them but sadly no. No such plea was ever made. The reconstruction as requested by the Portuguese police was thwarted, Madeleine came a poor second to their own selfishness.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on June 23, 2014, 12:11:42 PM
One would have thought that the parents of a genuinely abducted infant would make a public plea to those involved to take part in a reconstruction with them but sadly no. No such plea was ever made. The reconstruction as requested by the Portuguese police was thwarted, Madeleine came a poor second to their own selfishness.
By heck Mr Mod, you are learning fast. @)(++(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Moderator on June 23, 2014, 12:27:25 PM
One would have thought that the parents of a genuinely abducted infant would make a public plea to those involved to take part in a reconstruction with them but sadly no. No such plea was ever made. The reconstruction as requested by the Portuguese police was thwarted, Madeleine came a poor second to their own selfishness.
because the mcanns didnt care about maddie or the twins abandoning them every night for their own selfish adult me time proves that
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 23, 2014, 11:34:18 PM
They did refuse to do a reconstruction- I posted earlier Gerrys words.
They did however, do a TV version - actors and scripted. Hmm not the same is it.
They have had an agenda from day 1.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pegasus on June 24, 2014, 01:42:07 AM
I think a physical reconstruction of the time from 21:05 to to 22:00 would in itself have achieved nothing, because during that time period not even one of the witnesses were acting or faking behaviour. The investigation then (and possibly even now?) starts off with an assumption of "tempo" (source: Final Report, Introduction, Page 1) which I think is illogical.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 24, 2014, 07:53:58 PM
I believe the issue is more about why they chose NOT to do a reconstruction in Portual for the police to let them ascertain time lines as near as was possible- not an unreasonable request, as far as investigating a child disappearance goes, and they being the last people to have see her in the apartment 'allegedly'.
But they chose to get involved with the TV 'version' for the UK public-to promote their Thesis-which was scripted.
Gerry gets to take control of the 'show'
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 24, 2014, 08:18:19 PM
I have to say that reading some of the emails about the reconstruction to The Tapas 7, that Rebelo feller would have scared me half to death. No way would I have gone anywhere near Portugal at that time.
And did anyone else read the lies in The Press about them demanding five star accommodation for free?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 24, 2014, 08:31:04 PM
This would be the same press that told the UK public that the parents are innocent and maddie was abducted.
That press? oh yes, don't you hate it when the press don't print what Kate n Gerry want us to know and what is to be held back. So dang annoying.
Scary policemen? hahahahahahahaha not half as scary as having your daughter abducted I would imagine, but....we all have different levels of fear I suppose.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 24, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
This would be the same press that told the UK public that the parents are innocent and maddie was abducted.
That press? oh yes, don't you hate it when the press don't print what Kate n Gerry want us to know and what is to be held back. So dang annoying.
Scary policemen? hahahahahahahaha not half as scary as having your daughter abducted I would imagine, but....we all have different levels of fear I suppose.
Agreed those scary policeman trying to do their job and find out the truth. Seems like others don't want the truth to be found.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on June 25, 2014, 08:11:43 AM
I have to say that reading some of the emails about the reconstruction to The Tapas 7, that Rebelo feller would have scared me half to death. No way would I have gone anywhere near Portugal at that time.
And did anyone else read the lies in The Press about them demanding five star accommodation for free?
Pure speculation on my part but.........
IMO the PJ knew the group wouldn't agree to attend a recon. In fact IMO they were banking on it - and so to make sure they wouldn't agree - they let them know that they could not guarantee that the press would not be there, they referred to the McCanns as 'the offenders' and told them not to bring their children with them. That last bit alone would make me suspicious enough to say 'No way'.
They also said that if only one of them refused to go - it wouldn't take place at all. So once Jez said he wasn't going - that was the end of it anyway.
Having been viciously smeared in the media themselves and then having to watch their friends who they knew to be innocent made Arguidos - the group's trust in the PJ's motives would be less than ZERO. And who could blame them?
I think the PJ breathed a huge sigh of relief when they refused, and then proceeded to use that refusal as part of the reason why they had to shelve the case.
IMO it was a face-saving exercise. (and it worked too)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2014, 08:16:49 AM
IMO the PJ knew the group wouldn't agree to attend a recon. In fact IMO they were banking on it - and so to make sure they wouldn't agree - they let them know that they could not guarantee that the press would not be there, they referred to the McCanns as 'the offenders' and told them not to bring their children with them. That last bit alone would make me suspicious enough to say 'No way'.
They also said that if only one of them refused to go - it wouldn't take place at all. So once Jez said he wasn't going - that was the end of it anyway.
Having been viciously smeared in the media themselves and then having to watch their friends who they knew to be innocent made Arguidos - the group's trust in the PJ's motives would be less than ZERO. And who could blame them?
I think the PJ breathed a huge sigh of relief when they refused, and then proceeded to use that refusal as part of the reason why they had to shelve the case.
IMO it was a face-saving exercise. (and it worked too)
The mccanns and associates had no excuse for not doing a reconstruction.
it would have been easy to arrange.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on June 25, 2014, 08:31:53 AM
The mccanns and associates had no excuse for not doing a reconstruction.
it would have been easy to arrange.
Bearing in mind that the PJ wanted an 'accurate' recon - showing 'exact' places where people were - then tell me how that was going to be achieved if several of the group did not know 'accurate' times of when they moved around in the first place?
For instance:
PJ to Jez: We want you to set off on your walk at the same time you did on 3rd May. Jez to PJ: But I don't know the exact time - what if I have a guess at it - and get it a couple of minutes wrong - and end up missing Gerry altogether. What happens then? PJ to Jez: Errrmmmm...............................................................
What do you think their answer would be Stephen? (or anyone for that matter)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2014, 08:34:31 AM
Bearing in mind that the PJ wanted an 'accurate' recon - showing 'exact' places where people were - then tell me how that was going to be achieved if several of the group did not know 'accurate' times of when they moved around in the first place?
For instance:
PJ to Jez: We want you to set off on your walk at the same time you did on 3rd May. Jez to PJ: But I don't know the exact time - what if I have a guess at it - and get it a couple of minutes wrong - and end up missing Gerry altogether. What happens then? PJ to Jez: Errrmmmm...............................................................
What do you think their answer would be Stephen? (or anyone for that matter)
Ermmmmm. 8**8:/:
However, bearing in mind the meeting they had in the 'Rothley' when they returned to the UK, they would have 'SORTED' out their stories, don't you think.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on June 25, 2014, 08:43:01 AM
Purely a social get together. The events of that night every never entered into any conversation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2014, 08:47:50 AM
However, bearing in mind the meeting they had in the 'Rothley' when they returned to the UK, they would have 'SORTED' out their stories, don't you think.
Sorted out what 'stories' about what? And in what way? Please clarify.
Was Jez Wilkins at this meeting btw?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on June 25, 2014, 09:46:00 AM
IMO the PJ knew the group wouldn't agree to attend a recon. In fact IMO they were banking on it - and so to make sure they wouldn't agree - they let them know that they could not guarantee that the press would not be there, they referred to the McCanns as 'the offenders' and told them not to bring their children with them. That last bit alone would make me suspicious enough to say 'No way'.
They also said that if only one of them refused to go - it wouldn't take place at all. So once Jez said he wasn't going - that was the end of it anyway.
Having been viciously smeared in the media themselves and then having to watch their friends who they knew to be innocent made Arguidos - the group's trust in the PJ's motives would be less than ZERO. And who could blame them?
I think the PJ breathed a huge sigh of relief when they refused, and then proceeded to use that refusal as part of the reason why they had to shelve the case.
IMO it was a face-saving exercise. (and it worked too)
This has always been my belief as well. It is quite obvious to me. Leave The Tapas 7 wondering if they were going to be arrested, and that'll sort that. I expect that Jeremy Willkins felt the same. He was the first to refuse, with no pressure from anyone.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on June 25, 2014, 09:47:31 AM
This has always been my belief as well. It is quite obvious to me. Leave The Tapas 7 wondering if they were going to be arrested, and that'll sort that. I expect that Jeremy Willkins felt the same. He was the first to refuse, with no pressure from anyone.
Why should they have been arrested ?
Did they do something wrong ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 25, 2014, 03:19:21 PM
In the email's which were used as a corresponding method regarding the request from Portugal, there is no reference to them seeking "accurate" accounts- the words used are- approximate.
(emails to be found in McCannfiles).
Of course we can look at what the real reason was, but that is hidden behind this fascade:
quote"When the PJ finally requested a reconstruction to take place in 2008, Gerry and I were still arguidos and as such would have attended for a reconstruction. ( They knew why they were being asked)Some key witnesses (including some of our friends)declined to attend the planned reconstruction as they were not convinced of the aims and usefulness of it. In particular, as the reconstruction was not to be shown to the media (and hence the general public), they did not feel it would help to find Madeleine" unquote. -
They didn't feel it would help Madeleine? If this wasn't so serious It would be funny, how can unskilled investigators 'feel' it wont help?
The real reason is in the first line: Kate and Gerry KNEW they would have to evidence their time line without contradiction. Thus eliminating the suspicion placed upon them if that were the case. It was in their interest also to take part-if they were innocent. The excuse used that it wouldn't help the search is a red herring-this was a police investigation to find out what happened.
In the email's which were used as a corresponding method regarding the request from Portugal, there is no reference to them seeking "accurate" accounts- the words used are- approximate.
(emails to be found in McCannfiles).
Of course we can look at what the real reason was, but that is hidden behind this fascade:
quote"When the PJ finally requested a reconstruction to take place in 2008, Gerry and I were still arguidos and as such would have attended for a reconstruction. ( They knew why they were being asked)Some key witnesses (including some of our friends)declined to attend the planned reconstruction as they were not convinced of the aims and usefulness of it. In particular, as the reconstruction was not to be shown to the media (and hence the general public), they did not feel it would help to find Madeleine" unquote. -
They didn't feel it would help Madeleine? If this wasn't so serious It would be funny, how can unskilled investigators 'feel' it wont help?
The real reason is in the first line: Kate and Gerry KNEW they would have to evidence their time line without contradiction. Thus eliminating the suspicion placed upon them if that were the case. It was in their interest also to take part-if they were innocent. The excuse used that it wouldn't help the search is a red herring-this was a police investigation to find out what happened.
I would call the pj unskilled investigtors...when you go to your doctor do you always agree and accept everything that is said or sometimes do you research things yourself or get a second opinion
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on August 20, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
I have yet to find anyone who can explain to me how a reconstruction as proposed in this case a year later would have eliminated the McCanns.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2014, 12:27:17 PM
I have yet to find anyone who can explain to me how a reconstruction as proposed in this case a year later would have eliminated the McCanns.
How would you ever know without the reconstruction being done? As it was not, then we shall never know via a reconstruction.
From the same blog
a sense of inevitability foretold in the measured words of the Archiving Summary and its catholic author Menezes, whose phrases are, after all, only a repetition in legalese of an ancient message: the truth can set you free if you let it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 20, 2014, 01:37:28 PM
How would you ever know without the reconstruction being done? As it was not, then we shall never know via a reconstruction.
From the same blog
a sense of inevitability foretold in the measured words of the Archiving Summary and its catholic author Menezes, whose phrases are, after all, only a repetition in legalese of an ancient message: the truth can set you free if you let it.
Perhaps you could describe a scenario in which a reconstruction of the events of the night of 3rd May would prove the McCanns' innocence?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Bert Singe on August 20, 2014, 02:50:42 PM
Perhaps I could? I could also say if you do nothing then you most definitely get nothing.
The time to do a reconstruction is shortly after the event - when things are fresh in the mind and all or most of the main players are still around.
To request a reconstruction AFTER the direction of the enquiry was plain, and McCanns had been made Arguidos, was plainly with one end in mind. And it had sod all to do with finding Madeleine. The McCanns would probably not have much choice - but the others would have been mad to go IMO.
Why was a reconstruction not carried out soon after (within a few days) of Madeleine's disappearance? That would have been the obvious time to do it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on August 20, 2014, 04:47:13 PM
I would like to know why a reconstruction was refused by The PJ, in the beginning, when it could have been of some use.
It might have led to press questions on the conditions leading up to and during the so-called reconstruction with João in the Cipriano case... If the press had dug into that, oh, dear... That wouldn't do.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 20, 2014, 04:57:47 PM
Perhaps I could? I could also say if you do nothing then you most definitely get nothing.
Well can you or can't you? Personally I can't think of anything the McCanns could have said or done in a reconstruction which would have categorically proven their innocence, perhaps I'm just not trying hard enough? I'm sure you'd relish the opportunity to tell us how they could have done so, so please don't hold back now...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Bert Singe on August 20, 2014, 05:44:02 PM
Well can you or can't you? Personally I can't think of anything the McCanns could have said or done in a reconstruction which would have categorically proven their innocence, perhaps I'm just not trying hard enough? I'm sure you'd relish the opportunity to tell us how they could have done so, so please don't hold back now...
Maybe you're concentrating too much on the McCanns? Do they not say seeing is believing? Perhaps the authorities may have seen things they could not see without the reconstruction? As I said earlier, doing nothing gets you nothing so why not do something and then see who it helps?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 20, 2014, 06:36:21 PM
Maybe you're concentrating too much on the McCanns? Do they not say seeing is believing? Perhaps the authorities may have seen things they could not see without the reconstruction? As I said earlier, doing nothing gets you nothing so why not do something and then see who it helps?
Well perhaps you could give me an example of something the authorities would have been able to see that they wouldn't have been able to see without a reconstruction. And - whilst you're at it, perhaps you could address the point that has been raised many times on this board without any sensible reply from anyone and that is - whose timeline would the reconstruction have relied on? As most of the people involved have slight variations in their recall of the times that events occurred how would a reconstruction actually work? Would they have need to do 9 or 10 reconstructions based on each individual's memory of events, and if so, what would that allow the authorities to rule out?
Doing nothing may get you nothing, but doing something pointless and / or half-arsed often gets you less than nothing, in my opinion of course.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Bert Singe on August 20, 2014, 06:44:57 PM
Well perhaps you could give me an example of something the authorities would have been able to see that they wouldn't have been able to see without a reconstruction. And - whilst you're at it, perhaps you could address the point that has been raised many times on this board without any sensible reply from anyone and that is - whose timeline would the reconstruction have relied on? As most of the people involved have slight variations in their recall of the times that events occurred how would a reconstruction actually work? Would they have need to do 9 or 10 reconstructions based on each individual's memory of events, and if so, what would that allow the authorities to rule out?
Doing nothing may get you nothing, but doing something pointless and / or half-arsed often gets you less than nothing, in my opinion of course.
How do reconstructions usually deal with witnesses and timelines? Do not all reconstructions face the same obstacles?
If 7 foreign nationals had baled out of the reconstruction of a serious incident on UK soil then would you be of the same view? Why should anybody obstruct any investigation by refusing to fully cooperate?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on August 20, 2014, 06:57:14 PM
How do reconstructions usually deal with witnesses and timelines? Do not all reconstructions face the same obstacles?
If 7 foreign nationals had baled out of the reconstruction of a serious incident on UK soil then would you be of the same view? Why should anybody obstruct any investigation by refusing to fully cooperate?
In the UK, there would be no attempt to conduct a reconstruction to determine questions of guilt or innocence -- only to jog memories and encourage new witnesses to come forward, an entirely different purpose.
The example I have used before is the shooting dead of Jean-Paul de Menezes at Stockwell London Underground.
Eye-witnesses "saw" Mr Demenezes wearing a knee-length heavy-weight coat with leads trailing underneath. They "saw" him pole-volt barriers, sprint onto the train, be nailed to the floor and shot.
The only true bit was the last. He was wearing a light-weight denim jacket, he sauntered casually onto the platform, stopped to pick up a paper, sauntered onto the train, was pinned to the floor and was shot.
The truth was revealed, not by a reconstruction, but by analysis of close-circuit TV footage of actual events as they unfurled.
A Portuguese-style "reconstitution" would never have got to the truth ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 20, 2014, 07:24:51 PM
How do reconstructions usually deal with witnesses and timelines? Do not all reconstructions face the same obstacles?
If 7 foreign nationals had baled out of the reconstruction of a serious incident on UK soil then would you be of the same view? Why should anybody obstruct any investigation by refusing to fully cooperate?
I'm not aware that reconstructions are done using the victims of crime to re-enact traumatic events they have been involved in to produce a timeline of events in this country- is this common practise do you know?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Montclair on August 20, 2014, 10:06:07 PM
How do think that criminal investigations are carried out in other countries? Do you think asking for an alibi is fascist?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2014, 10:11:07 PM
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 21, 2014, 12:53:47 PM
A properly organised reconstruction could resolve and clarify some of these discrepancies, or at least expose them - you could not not have done that at this time because you were doing something else.
So - why was a reconstruction not at least attempted shortly after the incident? Who was in charge of the investigation?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on August 21, 2014, 01:11:35 PM
A properly organised reconstruction could resolve and clarify some of these discrepancies, or at least expose them - you could not not have done that at this time because you were doing something else.
So - why was a reconstruction not at least attempted shortly after the incident? Who was in charge of the investigation?
That is when it would have made the most sense, particularly as it could have included far more people (including locals, OC staff), etc.
Amaral said that they chose not to because of the potential media interest. He at least intimated that it was also because they didn't want the group to know that they were suspects.
All they had to say, however, was that it was to pinpoint when an abductor could have taken her without being noticed. That would have been perfectly plausible to most people... except that the press might have dragged up the Cipriano "reconstruction" and the fact that he was already an arguido in that affair.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 21, 2014, 01:22:23 PM
That is when it would have made the most sense, particularly as it could have included far more people (including locals, OC staff), etc.
Amaral said that they chose not to because of the potential media interest. He at least intimated that it was also because they didn't want the group to know that they were suspects.
All they had to say, however, was that it was to pinpoint when an abductor could have taken her without being noticed. That would have been perfectly plausible to most people... except that the press might have dragged up the Cipriano "reconstruction" and the fact that he was already an arguido in that affair.
That makes sense. Which makes it all the more puzzling why it was not done.
I would have thought that part of the point would be the media interest - pubicising the event may have triggered memories in peoples minds and could have led to further leads.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2014, 02:42:55 PM
Jean-Pierre:
pubicising the event may have triggered memories in peoples minds and could have led to further leads.
But the Portuguese don't do that.
Their secrecy laws won't allow it.
That's why they call what they do allow reconstitutions rather than reconstructions.
The purpose is purely to determine guilt or innocence of the accused, mission impossible by that route, because you can never recreate things exactly the same as first time round ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on August 21, 2014, 03:57:48 PM
That makes sense. Which makes it all the more puzzling why it was not done.
I would have thought that part of the point would be the media interest - pubicising the event may have triggered memories in peoples minds and could have led to further leads.
Not in Portugal as the concept of a reconstruction / reconstitution is to assess potential guilt of those summoned to take part as opposed to a public appeal for potential witnesses.
One possibility is that they really weren't aware that reconstructions in other countries could be used as an appeal and that therefore a reconstruction would have intimated that the group were suspects. However, it could have been handled differently, as I suggested earlier. They could just have wheeled out the valiant de Sousa to state that it was to pinpoint when she could have been taken.
The other possibility is the fact the coordinator was an arguido himself in the Cipriano case (which involved a so-called "reconstitution" in dubious circumstances as virtually the only "evidence" on which they were convicted, not to mention the torture), and might have drawn unwanted press attention to that case. Particularly as it also involved a missing child not that far away, with an abysmal investigation, and no evidence as to what actually happened to her.
Amaral moans about political interference. However, IMO, it doesn't take too much to work out what the diplomatic exchanges were actually about...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on October 03, 2014, 04:43:17 PM
For me the reconstruction which the Portuguese were planning was the most crucial factor in establishing non culpability by any of the tapas group. It speaks volumes that the reconstruction was prevented from taking place by elements within that group, a point which was not lost in the final report provided by the Portuguese police and the Attorney General who was left with no option but to archive the case.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 03, 2014, 05:44:02 PM
For me the reconstruction which the Portuguese were planning was the most crucial factor in establishing non culpability by any of the tapas group. It speaks volumes that the reconstruction was prevented from taking place by elements within that group, a point which was not lost in the final report provided by the Portuguese police and the Attorney General who was left with no option but to archive the case.
Perhaps you would like to tell us how a reconstruction could take place considering that only approximate times are remembered by 9 of the people involved.
You could start with Jez Wilkins.
The PJ ask him to leave his apartment at the same time that he did on May 3rd and take the same route - to where he met Gerry.
Jez Wilkins explains that he doesn't know the exact time - and asks what will happen if he guesses the wrong departure time and because of that - when he arrives at the place where he met Gerry - Gerry has already walked back into the complex and he's missed him.
Keeping in mind that they were only going to get one go at this recon. - what do you think the PJ's answer to Jez would be?
And that's just for starters.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 03, 2014, 05:58:16 PM
Perhaps you would like to tell us how a reconstruction could take place considering that only approximate times are remembered by 9 of the people involved.
You could start with Jez Wilkins.
The PJ ask him to leave his apartment at the same time that he did on May 3rd and take the same route - to where he met Gerry.
Jez Wilkins explains that he doesn't know the exact time - and asks what will happen if he guesses the wrong departure time and because of that - when he arrives at the place where he met Gerry - Gerry has already walked back into the complex and he's missed him.
Keeping in mind that they were only going to get one go at this recon. - what do you think the PJ's answer to Jez would be?
And that's just for starters.
Approximate times, my R'se.
and let's not forget the convention at the Rothley hotel on the return to the UK when they 'discussed' the case together.
Naughty, naughty.
However, of course they weren't colluding. %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 03, 2014, 06:27:48 PM
and let's not forget the convention at the Rothley hotel on the return to the UK when they 'discussed' the case together.
Naughty, naughty.
However, of course they weren't colluding. %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
Well why don't you tell us how an accurate recon could take place? Apart from Jez - what about Jane Tanner who gave the time she left the table after Gerry as between 5 and 10 mins. If she guessed the time wrongly, Gerry could have been back at the table before she'd left it. What would happen then?
The PJ knew the chances of the group agreeing to return for a recon was minimal - because of the appalling way they had been treated and after seeing their friends made arguidos. They would have NO trust at all in the PJ - and who could blame them.
Pure speculation on my part but IMO the PJ were banking on them not returning - and breathed a huge sigh of relief when they didn't. That meant they could shelve the case and offload the blame. It was a face-saving operation IMO. And it worked.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 06:32:37 PM
Well why don't you tell us how an accurate recon could take place? Apart from Jez - what about Jane Tanner who gave the time she left the table after Gerry as between 5 and 10 mins. If she guessed the time wrongly, Gerry could have been back at the table before she'd left it. What would happen then?
The PJ knew the chances of the group agreeing to return for a recon was minimal - because of the appalling way they had been treated and after seeing their friends made arguidos. They would have NO trust at all in the PJ - and who could blame them.
Pure speculation on my part but IMO the PJ were banking on them not returning - and breathed a huge sigh of relief when they didn't. That meant they could shelve the case and offload the blame. It was a face-saving operation IMO. And it worked.
What appalling treatment?
Offload what blame?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on October 03, 2014, 06:33:55 PM
and let's not forget the convention at the Rothley hotel on the return to the UK when they 'discussed' the case together.
Naughty, naughty.
However, of course they weren't colluding. %£&)**# &%&£(+ %£&)**# &%&£(+
Convention? What an imagination you have.
Maybe you dont go nice places for dinner with your friends?
Of course they would discuss what happened
You are not for real Stephen
They cant have a glass of wine with their meal
They cant meet up with their friends for dinner and go over what happened without it being a Convention. How silly you are sounding.
Do you have no social life ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on October 03, 2014, 06:46:25 PM
A reconstruction would show up anomalies if there were any in the statements already given by the group members and anyone else who was there that night, a well tried and tested procedure in every police precinct. It is interesting however that the group refused to take part in this exercise and that for me indicates that some of them have something to be worried about.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 03, 2014, 06:53:22 PM
A reconstruction would show up anomalies if there were any in the statements already given by the group members and anyone else who was there that night, a well tried and tested procedure in every police precinct. It is interesting however that the group refused to take part in this exercise and that for me indicates that some of them have something to be worried about.
The world is full of people who will find a hundred reasons why a task should not be done rather than find the one reason why it should. 8(>((
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on October 03, 2014, 06:55:32 PM
A reconstruction would show up anomalies if there were any in the statements already given by the group members and anyone else who was there that night, a well tried and tested procedure in every police precinct. It is interesting however that the group refused to take part in this exercise and that for me indicates that some of them have something to be worried about.
They were being framed by that b*stard Amaral & the other f*cking tossers of the PJ.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 07:04:47 PM
It was demonstrate not prove , apparently, either way, they didn't go back & cooperate, that's all they had to do.
But, obviously, there is absoloutely nothing even remotely suspicious about them not having done that, is there.
To be brutally fair the parents didn't refuse to take part. at least that was what was communicated back to the police but then they knew it wouldn't happen in any event since most of the tapas group had already refused. A cute bit of maneuvering imo.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 03, 2014, 07:17:49 PM
A reconstruction would show up anomalies if there were any in the statements already given by the group members and anyone else who was there that night, a well tried and tested procedure in every police precinct. It is interesting however that the group refused to take part in this exercise and that for me indicates that some of them have something to be worried about.
Yes, indeed - I would have been worried too, to return to a country in which the police have a track record of corruption and torture, to take part in what would clearly have been a farcical reconstruction, the sole purpose of which was to incriminate friends of mine who had just lost a child. Please tell me how a reconstruction could have absolved the McCanns and their friends of any guilt? Just try and explain it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 07:21:14 PM
Yes, indeed - I would have been worried too, to return to a country in which the police have a track record of corruption and torture, to take part in what would clearly have been a farcical reconstruction, the sole purpose of which was to incriminate friends of mine who had just lost a child. Please tell me how a reconstruction could have absolved the McCanns and their friends of any guilt? Just try and explain it.
How would it have incriminated them, if they're innocent?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on October 03, 2014, 07:25:48 PM
Yes, indeed - I would have been worried too, to return to a country in which the police have a track record of corruption and torture, to take part in what would clearly have been a farcical reconstruction, the sole purpose of which was to incriminate friends of mine who had just lost a child. Please tell me how a reconstruction could have absolved the McCanns and their friends of any guilt? Just try and explain it.
That's where you are wrong. The Portuguese are no more incompetent or corrupt than your average British copper and the reason for a reconstruction was to clear up several issues which still remain unresolved even today.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on October 03, 2014, 07:41:56 PM
Well why don't you tell us how an accurate recon could take place? Apart from Jez - what about Jane Tanner who gave the time she left the table after Gerry as between 5 and 10 mins. If she guessed the time wrongly, Gerry could have been back at the table before she'd left it. What would happen then?
The PJ knew the chances of the group agreeing to return for a recon was minimal - because of the appalling way they had been treated and after seeing their friends made arguidos. They would have NO trust at all in the PJ - and who could blame them.
Pure speculation on my part but IMO the PJ were banking on them not returning - and breathed a huge sigh of relief when they didn't. That meant they could shelve the case and offload the blame. It was a face-saving operation IMO. And it worked.
Just giving excuses for what they didn't do is insufficient.
There were no excuses.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 03, 2014, 08:03:46 PM
That's where you are wrong. The Portuguese are no more incompetent or corrupt than your average British copper and the reason for a reconstruction was to clear up several issues which still remain unresolved even today.
I note you made no attempt at all to explain how a reconstruction would prove the McCanns & their friends innocence. What issues do you think the reconstruction would have resolved?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 08:07:23 PM
I note you made no attempt at all to explain how a reconstruction would prove the McCanns & their friends innocence. What issues do you think the reconstruction would have resolved?
What issues do you think them not having cooperated has caused?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on October 03, 2014, 08:43:45 PM
I note you made no attempt at all to explain how a reconstruction would prove the McCanns & their friends innocence. What issues do you think the reconstruction would have resolved?
Why should I? A reconstruction's sole purpose is to establish what went on in the hours and minutes leading up to what may possibly have been a crime. It's purpose is to identify anomalies as I stated earlier. Guilt or innocence is determined by many factors and not just by conducting a reconstruction. People who refuse to take part in a reconstruction and particularly one involving a disappeared child will always be viewed as worthy of further scrutiny.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on October 03, 2014, 09:17:11 PM
Why should I? A reconstruction's sole purpose is to establish what went on in the hours and minutes leading up to what may possibly have been a crime. It's purpose is to identify anomalies as I stated earlier. Guilt or innocence is determined by many factors and not just by conducting a reconstruction. People who refuse to take part in a reconstruction and particularly one involving a disappeared child will always be viewed as worthy of further scrutiny.
Jez couldn’t make it and I wonder how many of the OC staff couldn’t make it. It would be waste of time unless everyone was present for the reconstruction. The replies to the requests of the OC staff, had not all been checked out at the time of the reconstruction, cancellation. I can’t blame anyone for avoiding a return , to be torn to bits by their press and interrogated even further by PJ. I can not understand why it could not have been done sooner when most were still there and things were clearer in their minds.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 03, 2014, 10:13:51 PM
Why should I? A reconstruction's sole purpose is to establish what went on in the hours and minutes leading up to what may possibly have been a crime. It's purpose is to identify anomalies as I stated earlier. Guilt or innocence is determined by many factors and not just by conducting a reconstruction. People who refuse to take part in a reconstruction and particularly one involving a disappeared child will always be viewed as worthy of further scrutiny.
You said the reconstruction would resolve several issues - what were those issues and how exactly would the reconstruction have resolved them? Is it standard practise to get suspects and victims to take part in a reconstruction of a deeply upsetting series of events?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 03, 2014, 10:29:42 PM
You said the reconstruction would resolve several issues - what were those issues and how exactly would the reconstruction have resolved them? Is it standard practise to get suspects and victims to take part in a reconstruction of a deeply upsetting series of events?
Why did the reconstruction involve only the Drs McCann, Jez and their friends? Were they the only inhabitants of PDL on the 3rd May 2007?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Matthew Wyse on October 03, 2014, 10:40:54 PM
You said the reconstruction would resolve several issues - what were those issues and how exactly would the reconstruction have resolved them? Is it standard practise to get suspects and victims to take part in a reconstruction of a deeply upsetting series of events?
Yes several issues remain unclear as to who was where and when and that is part of the problem. To list them all would take far too long at the moment. Reconstructions are a normal tool for police services all over the world but the Portuguese do reconstitutions which require the original participants to take part.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 03, 2014, 10:46:36 PM
Yes several issues remain unclear as to who was where and when and that is part of the problem. To list them all would take far too long at the moment. Reconstructions are a normal tool for police services all over the world but the Portuguese do reconstitutions which require the original participants to take part.
Strange how those who talk about the inaccuracies associated with witness statements see no contradiction in their stance that the T9 + were right not to go back for the reconstruction to iron out those inaccuracies.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 03, 2014, 11:23:40 PM
Yes several issues remain unclear as to who was where and when and that is part of the problem. To list them all would take far too long at the moment. Reconstructions are a normal tool for police services all over the world but the Portuguese do reconstitutions which require the original participants to take part.
As already pointed out, each potential participant recalled events occurring at slightly different times so how would a reconstruction possibly resolve whose times were correct? Wouldn't they have had to carry out numerous reconstrctions to try out all the different permutations and if so what would that have resolved one way or the other?
If it's true that the Portuguese require victims of crime to re-live deeply traumatic events then I find that very insensitive indeed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on October 03, 2014, 11:34:55 PM
Yes several issues remain unclear as to who was where and when and that is part of the problem. To list them all would take far too long at the moment. Reconstructions are a normal tool for police services all over the world but the Portuguese do reconstitutions which require the original participants to take part.
I don't think if there had been an official reconstruction Gerry's recollection of what side of the road he was on while talking to Jez would have taken prominence over Jez and Tanner's as it did in the Loach debacle.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 03, 2014, 11:52:57 PM
Strange how those who talk about the inaccuracies associated with witness statements see no contradiction in their stance that the T9 + were right not to go back for the reconstruction to iron out those inaccuracies.
Perhaps you would like to explain how a reconstruction would have ironed out those inaccuracies? Who would have decided which timeline must have been the correct one, when they all differed slightly? Would it have been up to the police to decide, or would those taking part in the reconstruction have a vote on it, or what?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 04, 2014, 08:12:17 AM
Perhaps you would like to explain how a reconstruction would have ironed out those inaccuracies? Who would have decided which timeline must have been the correct one, when they all differed slightly? Would it have been up to the police to decide, or would those taking part in the reconstruction have a vote on it, or what?
Start at the beginning and work through. If something starts to happen later than recalled, rewind and see what may have started sooner or taken less time, repeat. You finish up with a consistent and realistic timeline. If this isn't achievable then someone's recollection is faulty.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 04, 2014, 08:18:16 AM
Start at the beginning and work through. If something starts to happen later than recalled, rewind and see what may have started sooner or taken less time, repeat. You finish up with a consistent and realistic timeline. If this isn't achievable then someone's recollection is faulty.
Obviously one or more persons recollection was faulty, we know that already from the numerous minor inconsistencies in all the witness statements that evening, so what's a reconstruction going to prove exactly and who decides whether witness x was right or witness y?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 04, 2014, 08:26:29 AM
Obviously one or more persons recollection was faulty, we know that already from the numerous minor inconsistencies in all the witness statements that evening, so what's a reconstruction going to prove exactly and who decides whether witness x was right or witness y?
The reconstruction removes the minor inconsistencies. The police would know more after a reconstruction than before.
...or is that the problem?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 04, 2014, 08:31:41 AM
Yes several issues remain unclear as to who was where and when and that is part of the problem. To list them all would take far too long at the moment. Reconstructions are a normal tool for police services all over the world but the Portuguese do reconstitutions which require the original participants to take part.
How can any 'issues' be cleared up unless the 10 people involved could faithfully and accurately repeat their exact movements from one night - 12 months prior - at the exact time they had made them?
It would only take one of them to be a couple of minutes wrong with their recollection of the times for the recon to fail.
All an attempted recon would have proved IMO is that it is absolutely impossible for 10 people to re-create their movements without the precision of memory which, in this particular case, would be a vital requirement - in order for an accurate recon to be achieved. Apart from GM - the one thing they could not remember were precise times - and no self-respecting policeman would expect them to in those circumstances.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 04, 2014, 08:40:57 AM
How can any 'issues' be cleared up unless the 10 people involved could faithfully and accurately repeat their exact movements from one night - 12 months prior - at the exact time they had made them?
It would only take one of them to be a couple of minutes wrong with their recollection of the times for the recon to fail.
All an attempted recon would have proved IMO is that it is absolutely impossible for 10 people to re-create their movements without the precision of memory which, in this particular case, would be a vital requirement - in order for an accurate recon to be achieved. Apart from GM - the one thing they could not remember were precise times - and no self-respecting policeman would expect them to in those circumstances.
Their mere cooperation, all of them attending, would have been a start.
Their absence wasn't indicative of innocence.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 04, 2014, 08:52:42 AM
How can any 'issues' be cleared up unless the 10 people involved could faithfully and accurately repeat their exact movements from one night - 12 months prior - at the exact time they had made them?
It would only take one of them to be a couple of minutes wrong with their recollection of the times for the recon to fail.
All an attempted recon would have proved IMO is that it is absolutely impossible for 10 people to re-create their movements without the precision of memory which, in this particular case, would be a vital requirement - in order for an accurate recon to be achieved. Apart from GM - the one thing they could not remember were precise times - and no self-respecting policeman would expect them to in those circumstances.
Try reading what I put earlier. We know the times are not precise. It doesn't matter if the reconstruction moved the times around by +/- 5 minutes. You end up with an agreed timeline which can be used to identify times when events occurred.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 04, 2014, 09:23:44 AM
Try reading what I put earlier. We know the times are not precise. It doesn't matter if the reconstruction moved the times around by +/- 5 minutes. You end up with an agreed timeline which can be used to identify times when events occurred.
Of course it matters. If the incorrect times were used then JT could still be at the table when Gerry returned and Jez Wilkins could have walked up the street and be gone before Gerry left the apartment. Apart from proving that Jez and Jane had guessed at the wrong times they set off - how could that assist with anything?
You haven't said how the PJ would address this obvious problem.
IMO The bottom line is that it simply wouldn't work and I do not believe that the PJ were so stupid that they didn't aready know that when they made the requests for a recon.
(must go now)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 04, 2014, 09:29:14 AM
Of course it matters. If the incorrect times were used then JT could still be at the table when Gerry returned and Jez Wilkins could have walked up the street and be gone before Gerry left the apartment. Apart from proving that Jez and Jane had guessed at the wrong times they set off - how could that assist with anything?
You haven't said how the PJ would address this obvious problem.
IMO The bottom line is that it simply wouldn't work and I do not believe that the PJ were so stupid that they didn't aready know that when they made the requests for a recon.
(must go now)
If any events become impossible then that is a productive outcome from the reconstruction.
If the timeline hangs together then that is s productive outcome.
What possible realistic reason could there be not to run a reconstruction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on October 04, 2014, 09:53:10 AM
Are there any recorded incidents of a group of people who were actually at the scene, doing a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 04, 2014, 10:04:53 AM
"And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them. So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal. Erm, and then I think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute’." (JT)
Gerry McCann would never do a reconstruction unless his proud father moment lasted for 5 minutes. You don't have conversations about somebody being gone for a long time unless it's at least 5 minutes. Jane leaves to check at least 7 minutes after him at 9:10. She claims he is seen talking to Jez but they only spoke for 3 or 4 minutes. So they were probably only talking for 2 minutes at the most before Jane saw them. So 7-2 = 5 minutes at least doing what Gerry? Yeah watching football Kate. But Smithman could get to the wasteland and back with a child in 4 minutes.
4078 'Okay. So take me through from there then, what happened after that'' Reply 'So, erm, back to the table, erm, we have, oh, back to the table, Gerry got up to go and, to go and check on his kids, I mean, and I'd come back and said, you know, I didn't hear any noise when I listened outside your room, so I thought it was a little bit odd that, you know, not kind of a wounded pride that he sort of didn't trust me, but, erm, I just thought, oh, you know, I've just checked you don't really need to check and sort of, you know, sort of go back, but, erm, he sort of got up and went back to check on, erm, on his kids. But, you know, you don't, you know, we're all sort of responsible for our own children and you wouldn't sort of say, you know, you don't need to do that, I just sort of felt, oh I've listened, you don't need to do that because I've kind of just done it, but I hadn't gone into the apartment, so, erm'.
4078 'Did you actually say that or you just thought that to yourself'' Reply 'Yeah, I thought that, you know, I'd said that everything was sort of quiet, I listened outside the shutters, but, you know, they went back up, erm, and said he was going to check. (MO)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 04, 2014, 10:40:47 AM
Of course it matters. If the incorrect times were used then JT could still be at the table when Gerry returned and Jez Wilkins could have walked up the street and be gone before Gerry left the apartment. Apart from proving that Jez and Jane had guessed at the wrong times they set off - how could that assist with anything?
You haven't said how the PJ would address this obvious problem.
IMO The bottom line is that it simply wouldn't work and I do not believe that the PJ were so stupid that they didn't aready know that when they made the requests for a recon.
(must go now)
It is my understanding that it became known that the PJ were reinvestigating Madeleine McCann’s disappearance when they were observed to be pacing out and timing movement in areas of interest in PDL.
No doubt this diligence was conducted in conjunction with modern policing methods which may possibly employ computer models of all witness statements, events and phone records thereby dismissing the need for a physical reconstruction of events.
Going back seven years and bearing in mind that the then PJ investigators were painfully aware of the inadequacies of the initial investigation, it is my belief they were anxious to exit without losing face, and this was the vehicle of choice. They knew that the climate of the times dictated that any rational person would question the necessity of participating in such an event or media scrum unless it was directed at finding out exactly what had happened to Madeleine McCann and not as a vehicle to incriminate her parents.
It is indicative that Jez Wilkins was astute enough to decline a return.
That the CW programme seven years down the line has apparently turned up new witnesses makes one wonder what witnesses might have responded to an appeal in 2007 from a programme of that type.
However, that was never what the proposed reconstruction was about.
I think the question should be why Dr Amaral declined to carry out a reconstruction in the early days of the inquiry when there was some chance new information which might have led to Madeleine's return or at least finding what happened to her might have been forthcoming.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 04, 2014, 12:07:05 PM
Just wanted to stitch them up didn't he.
Get real.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 04, 2014, 12:55:17 PM
It is my understanding that it became known that the PJ were reinvestigating Madeleine McCann’s disappearance when they were observed to be pacing out and timing movement in areas of interest in PDL.
No doubt this diligence was conducted in conjunction with modern policing methods which may possibly employ computer models of all witness statements, events and phone records thereby dismissing the need for a physical reconstruction of events.
Going back seven years and bearing in mind that the then PJ investigators were painfully aware of the inadequacies of the initial investigation, it is my belief they were anxious to exit without losing face, and this was the vehicle of choice. They knew that the climate of the times dictated that any rational person would question the necessity of participating in such an event or media scrum unless it was directed at finding out exactly what had happened to Madeleine McCann and not as a vehicle to incriminate her parents.
It is indicative that Jez Wilkins was astute enough to decline a return.
That the CW programme seven years down the line has apparently turned up new witnesses makes one wonder what witnesses might have responded to an appeal in 2007 from a programme of that type.
However, that was never what the proposed reconstruction was about.
I think the question should be why Dr Amaral declined to carry out a reconstruction in the early days of the inquiry when there was some chance new information which might have led to Madeleine's return or at least finding what happened to her might have been forthcoming.
Indicative of what? His reasons are recorded in here. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on October 04, 2014, 04:02:09 PM
The reconstruction removes the minor inconsistencies. The police would know more after a reconstruction than before.
...or is that the problem?
No it's not a problem, as the Met has already proved with its forensic examination of the timeline and having identified a window of opportunity for an abductor to strike.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 05, 2014, 11:40:40 PM
The bit I really love is Jez Wilkins being quite adamant he could only fix the time he met Gerry that night within half an hour (20:45 to 21:15) .....he being kind of like the only independent witness and all &%+((£ That might part way explain the reluctance to have a reconstitution
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on October 05, 2014, 11:45:47 PM
They are all possibilities I guess... Amazing they weren't forced to do a reconstruction. wouldn't that be seen as obstructing a potential murder enquiry? though the Portuguese allowed them to leave the country without doing a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on October 05, 2014, 11:58:01 PM
Still the myth is repeated that Amaral was behind the decision not to have a reconstruction, he was not.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 06, 2014, 12:02:17 AM
They are all possibilities I guess... Amazing they weren't forced to do a reconstruction. wouldn't that be seen as obstructing a potential murder enquiry? though the Portuguese allowed them to leave the country without doing a reconstruction?
There is a thread on that very subject on here. The general consensus of the "experts" is that it was perfectly permissible for them to not cooperate because Portugal is a third world country (?) (indeed one "expert" described Portugal as being a "banana republic" I believe) and they would have been "fitted up" by the most bent police force in the world. I thought Portugal was a member of the EU but clearly it can't be. Fitted up? sounds like a rerun of The Sweeney oh well.......
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 06, 2014, 12:30:13 AM
I always knew it was full of Myths and fantasies ... so nice to have it confirmed that ... the book ... is a tissue of lies.
Check out Chapter five
"The reconstruction was never to take place.
The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple.
There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation."
May 2007.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: misty on October 06, 2014, 12:44:57 AM
They are all possibilities I guess... Amazing they weren't forced to do a reconstruction. wouldn't that be seen as obstructing a potential murder enquiry? though the Portuguese allowed them to leave the country without doing a reconstruction?
Due to their judicial secrecy laws, any reconstruction could not be televised to acquire potential new evidence, unlike our own Crimewatch. So, a reconstruction which only involved the Tapas 9 & Jez Wilkins would have served what purpose, exactly? Perhaps it would have been more useful for the police to work out which people were actually out on the streets after 7pm that night, and what they noticed, who they were with, etc. Instead, the only concerted line of enquiry seems to have been to eliminate someone's presence.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on October 06, 2014, 12:52:52 AM
I always knew it was full of Myths and fantasies ... so nice to have it confirmed that ... the book ... is a tissue of lies.
Check out Chapter five
"The reconstruction was never to take place.
The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple.
There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation."
May 2007.
Thank you Brietta, you prove my point.
Nowhere in the above quote does Amaral say the decision not to stage a reconstruction was his fault. In fact the comment ' in spite of opinions to the contrary' suggests that he and others weren't at all happy with the decision.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on October 06, 2014, 12:54:48 AM
Due to their judicial secrecy laws, any reconstruction could not be televised to acquire potential new evidence, unlike our own Crimewatch. So, a reconstruction which only involved the Tapas 9 & Jez Wilkins would have served what purpose, exactly? Perhaps it would have been more useful for the police to work out which people were actually out on the streets after 7pm that night, and what they noticed, who they were with, etc. Instead, the only concerted line of enquiry seems to have been to eliminate someone's presence.
It would certainly have established whether Tanner could have passed by Jez and Gerry without being seen.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 06, 2014, 01:04:49 AM
The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple.
There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation."
May 2007.
A proper translation from the Portuguese should actually read as follows ...
"The reconstruction never happened.
Why?
Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.
The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices."
The PJ themselves ... not magistrates - judges - or politicians - discussed and took the decision.
The PJ and no-one else.
Now if I could only remember the name of the person who was leading the investigation and whose word, as we have had confirmed by Ricardo Paiva, carried a lot of weight ... oh bother ... I'm sure it will come to me ... I think he may have been the coordinator ie the big boss ...
I know ... Dr Amaral
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on October 06, 2014, 01:09:29 AM
A reconstruction would just help to construct a more accurate timeline perhaps? also it may help jog people's memories... Unfortunate their laws do not allow timewatch style tv reconstruction, but would have thought a reconstruction was simply routine here...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on October 06, 2014, 01:18:14 AM
So the PJ at no point asked to do a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on October 06, 2014, 01:21:37 AM
excerpts from the portuguese reconstruction programme
He affirmed any (previous) public interventions of his have always been done in the ambit of thesearch for Madeleine and, therefore his contributions to this debate would add nothing to those already made by the Portuguese and English authorities. So, I will start our conversation here in the studio, with Gonçalo Amaral. Gonçalo Amaral, we have just watched about eight minutes of video footage – a reconstruction of part of the day (3td May), and most of the evening when this little girl disappeared. How come the Portuguese police (PJ) never made a reconstruction (of these events)? practical! As someone then remarked - to go ahead with a reconstruction it would have been necessary to close the air space!(Gonçalo Amaral): Good evening! The reconstruction was never made, because we kept waiting for a better opportunity (to carry it out). Everything was happening then. We did think about a reconstruction; it is the normal thing to do under the circumstances but (because) there were (at the time) so many journalists in Praia da Luz, we decided it was not convenient. All that (media) circus; all that spectacle! It was not practical! As someone then remarked - to go ahead with a reconstruction it would have been necessary to close the air space! ++++++++ [/b
So, for this reason we left the reconstruction for a later date but, by then, the couple had left Portugal and did not wish to come back. I mean, their friends – who were not defendants, but mere witnesses - did not wish to come back. They refused – and the couple (perhaps) for convenience, went along with them.Also, the Public Ministry (Prosecutor) decided the reconstruction was not worth doing; but the fact is, it could still have gone ahead just with the couple since they were still defendants (suspects) at the time. (P): Interrupts briefly to say something (unclear) (GA): Yes, it could have gone ahead! Because if you pay attention (to the video), all we have seen so far, are just moments in time. A reconstruction is built upon of a series of moments. Each person (involved) has to explain what he or she had done or was doing at the time. Simple. I would not need to have all of them together, simultaneously, even (assuming) that would have been convenient. If I had only the couple, I could have done that bit extra . I could have advanced a bit further with the investigation. Also, there was a witness, Jeremy (Wilkins) – a BBC TV producer – who was willing to come to Portugal.As it happened, on that (fateful) evening (of 3td of May) Mr. Wilkins was walking about, pushing a pram with his baby son; trying to lull him into sleep, when he encountered Gerry McCann, leaving his apartment, around 21:30 hours. Therefore, at least these three persons could have come (McCanns’ and Jeremy Wilkins) not to mention an Irish family (Martin Smith’s) and possibly others.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on October 06, 2014, 01:23:35 AM
A proper translation from the Portuguese should actually read as follows ...
"The reconstruction never happened.
Why?
Given the large number of tourists in the village whose holidays would be affected if it were closed for several hours, the necessity to close the airspace, the large number of journalists in such a small area and the fear that the parents of Maddie and their friends were coming under suspicion and naturally we did not wish to see a trial in a public arena.
The team of investigators discussed the possibility but a decision was taken that there would be no reconstruction in spite of some dissenting voices."
The PJ themselves ... not magistrates - judges - or politicians - discussed and took the decision.
The PJ and no-one else.
Now if I could only remember the name of the person who was leading the investigation and whose word, as we have had confirmed by Ricardo Paiva, carried a lot of weight ... oh bother ... I'm sure it will come to me ... I think he may have been the coordinator ie the big boss ...
I know ... Dr Amaral
Guilhermino Encarnacao, Amaral's superior, would have made the final decision, not Amaral.
Back to the drawing board old pip !
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on October 06, 2014, 01:38:10 AM
from my post below
Also, there was a witness, Jeremy (Wilkins) – a BBC TV producer – who was willing to come to Portugal
What?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 08, 2014, 10:09:42 PM
This is what I am talking about their confused stories! You can read them in mccanfiles, the rotatory interviews. ermm um can't remember' err mmmm yeah you know yeah you know it was like you know...They cannot recall time time line accurately!!!!
a baby was allegedly abducted ffs.. they forget important details. come on behave yourself!
This is the story they sent home- due to Kate being concerned what people would say/think about them ( thinking of self and not Maddie at this important point).
Kate-Went to check and saw window jemmied- whooshing and Maddie gone= abducted. Were were only like-- it was like sitting in your garden- everyone in the UK do it. ( Yes, some people do sit in their own garden, whilst the children sleep) NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL IS IT Gerry?
The press are hounding us= family phone sky news to tell them about 'abduction' police were not told about abduction-just a missing child.
We did half hourly checks- oh no you didn't you didn't have a proper time line/clip board to sign in and off if all was well- it was: as and .when!
that is why they couldn't do a time line until they grabbed a bit of paper and pen to scribble one down- shameful! to try and justify leaving the children alone.
The door being locked then it was found out later one door was left unlocked! They claimed to have checked the children- turns out this check was a 'door listening' and not a physical check- apart form Gerrys last sighting of Maddie being alive and beautiful in her bed.@ 9.30? Oh and Kate paying great detail of the measurement of the bedroom doors distance from the wall from her previous encounter with the door being a different distance-thus causing her such concern she opened the door and whoosh!
How did Kate know how far from the wall Gerry left the door? The devil is in the detail! all silly ,mistakes because they were not expecting to have their lies scrutinized! and challenged. They hate being challenged on anything. Which is too bad really because if they just said what really happened, the way it really happened, no one would have bothered picking up these discrepancies.
I have no informed opinion of Amaral. I don 't know the man - he did not contribute to little Maddie's demise- that goes directly to her parents.
Do I believe the PJ could have done things better- yes I do. They should have arrested the parents immediately on being suspicious of their behavior- sealed off the crime scene, and questioned everyone individually.
That would have been fairer to everyone!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 08, 2014, 10:44:21 PM
This is what I am talking about their confused stories! You can read them in mccanfiles, the rotatory interviews. ermm um can't remember' err mmmm yeah you know yeah you know it was like you know...They cannot recall time time line accurately!!!!
a baby was allegedly abducted ffs.. they forget important details. come on behave yourself!
This is the story they sent home- due to Kate being concerned what people would say/think about them ( thinking of self and not Maddie at this important point).
Kate-Went to check and saw window jemmied- whooshing and Maddie gone= abducted. Were were only like-- it was like sitting in your garden- everyone in the UK do it. ( Yes, some people do sit in their own garden, whilst the children sleep) NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL IS IT Gerry?
The press are hounding us= family phone sky news to tell them about 'abduction' police were not told about abduction-just a missing child.
We did half hourly checks- oh no you didn't you didn't have a proper time line/clip board to sign in and off if all was well- it was: as and .when!
that is why they couldn't do a time line until they grabbed a bit of paper and pen to scribble one down- shameful! to try and justify leaving the children alone.
The door being locked then it was found out later one door was left unlocked! They claimed to have checked the children- turns out this check was a 'door listening' and not a physical check- apart form Gerrys last sighting of Maddie being alive and beautiful in her bed.@ 9.30? Oh and Kate paying great detail of the measurement of the bedroom doors distance from the wall from her previous encounter with the door being a different distance-thus causing her such concern she opened the door and whoosh!
How did Kate know how far from the wall Gerry left the door? The devil is in the detail! all silly ,mistakes because they were not expecting to have their lies scrutinized! and challenged. They hate being challenged on anything. Which is too bad really because if they just said what really happened, the way it really happened, no one would have bothered picking up these discrepancies.
I have no informed opinion of Amaral. I don 't know the man - he did not contribute to little Maddie's demise- that goes directly to her parents.
Do I believe the PJ could have done things better- yes I do. They should have arrested the parents immediately on being suspicious of their behavior- sealed off the crime scene, and questioned everyone individually.
That would have been fairer to everyone!
Those are just your opinions - and your interpretation of the facts. You are entitled to them but it doesn't necessarily make them true. SY do not agree with you and as they have far more information about this case than any armchair detective and also have the professional training and experience required to investigate it - then I'll stick with the experts.
With regard to the part of your post bolded above - fortunately the police know all about the fallibility of memory.
Quote "Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
ALSO
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Why would anyone expect that the McCanns and their friends' powers of recall should be any different from the rest of us after finding themselves suddenly plunged without warning into a situation of extreme stress.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 08, 2014, 10:57:49 PM
Those are just your opinions - and your interpretation of the facts. You are entitled to them but it doesn't necessarily make them true. SY do not agree with you and as they have far more information about this case than any armchair detective and also have the professional training and experience required to investigate it - then I'll stick with the experts.
With regard to the part of your post bolded above - fortunately the police know all about the fallibility of memory.
Quote "Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
ALSO
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Why would anyone expect that the McCanns and their friends' powers of recall should be any different from the rest of us after finding themselves suddenly plunged without warning into a situation of extreme stress.
That is precisely why the PJ routinely use reconstructions...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 08, 2014, 11:16:35 PM
That is precisely why the PJ routinely use reconstructions...
When did they last conduct a routine reconstruction which began at 5.30 and ended at 11.00pm - involving 10 people and was carried out 12 months after the crime was committed?
Most recons are for the purpose of jogging the memories of members of the public who were in the vicinity at the time.
IMO it is patently obvious this was not the aim of this proposed recon.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 08, 2014, 11:23:01 PM
No They are NOT my opinions. that is the stories they changed to and fro. I did not make it up, it is all there, it is all documented. Don't you want to look?
Forgetting what happened on the day your daughter disappeared- they claimed to be checking every half hour? Pfft
Do not even try and pin a tag on me. I had nothing to do with Maddies disappearance,unlike her parents and that isn't an opinion either. That is fact.
and why you have to bleet on about Charles Menedez who was executed by the police? He had nothing to do with it either!
You can believe what you want, but don't dare try and rearrange events to attach them to my opinions, to fit in with your agenda.
Thank you.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 08, 2014, 11:43:29 PM
No They are NOT my opinions. that is the stories they changed to and fro. I did not make it up, it is all there, it is all documented. Don't you want to look?
Forgetting what happened on the day your daughter disappeared- they claimed to be checking every half hour? Pfft
Do not even try and pin a tag on me. I had nothing to do with Maddies disappearance,unlike her parents and that isn't an opinion either. That is fact.
and why you have to bleet on about Charles Menedez who was executed by the police? He had nothing to do with it either!
You can believe what you want, but don't dare try and rearrange events to attach them to my opinions, to fit in with your agenda.
Thank you.
Behave! why would they want to that. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story. It's funny how a lot of old faces have reappeared in the last few days. There must be something big on.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 08, 2014, 11:47:00 PM
No They are NOT my opinions. that is the stories they changed to and fro. I did not make it up, it is all there, it is all documented. Don't you want to look?
Forgetting what happened on the day your daughter disappeared- they claimed to be checking every half hour? Pfft
Do not even try and pin a tag on me. I had nothing to do with Maddies disappearance,unlike her parents and that isn't an opinion either. That is fact.
and why you have to bleet on about Charles Menedez who was executed by the police? He had nothing to do with it either!
You can believe what you want, but don't dare try and rearrange events to attach them to my opinions, to fit in with your agenda.
Thank you.
Feel free to carry on thinking you know better than the experts. That is your prerogative. However if I was the victim of a crime - and I had the choice of SY investigating it - or some random armchair detective on the internet who had only some of the information to hand - then no prizes for guessing who I would choose. It would be no contest.
If you don't understand that the quotes I gave were to inform you of the attitude of the police towards 'differing stories' from witnesses - and which explain why their stance is the opposite of yours - then that is not my problem.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 08, 2014, 11:52:24 PM
Those are just your opinions - and your interpretation of the facts. You are entitled to them but it doesn't necessarily make them true. SY do not agree with you and as they have far more information about this case than any armchair detective and also have the professional training and experience required to investigate it - then I'll stick with the experts.
With regard to the part of your post bolded above - fortunately the police know all about the fallibility of memory.
Quote "Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
ALSO
Quote from DC Ferguson (JT's rogatory statement)
4078 “You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”. Unquote.
Why would anyone expect that the McCanns and their friends' powers of recall should be any different from the rest of us after finding themselves suddenly plunged without warning into a situation of extreme stress.
Indeed ... and if all their statements had dovetailed one into the other perfectly ... if there had been not a single discrepancy ... not a single word out of place ... that is when the situation would have been suspect and collusion a very obvious consideration.
I find it extraordinary that people cannot imagine the absolute terror and panic caused by Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 08, 2014, 11:59:59 PM
Feel free to carry on thinking you know better than the experts. That is your prerogative. However if I was the victim of a crime - and I had the choice of SY investigating it - or some random armchair detective on the internet who had only some of the information to hand - then no prizes for guessing who I would choose. It would be no contest.
If you don't understand that the quotes I gave were to inform you of the attitude of the police towards 'differing stories' from witnesses - and which explain why their stance is the opposite of yours - then that is not my problem.
Experts? Please do not use that tone with me, I have stated FACTS not armchair detective stories. I will leave those armchair detective stories to you and the McCann Family.
This is why I come here Just to let others know that people like you exist only to preserve a story which has never been accepted by any police force AS FACTS.
Today, the fate of Maddie has not be established= FACT! I know you don't like to hear it- I don't like to hear the abduction story being tossed about as gospel and the parents being 'totally innocent of any wrong doing', when we all know THE CHILDREN WERE LEFT ALONE. So armchair detectives can deduce that: parents leave kids alone =child goes missing= parents responsible for childs demise- what ever that is/was.
FACTS!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 09, 2014, 07:25:24 AM
When did they last conduct a routine reconstruction which began at 5.30 and ended at 11.00pm - involving 10 people and was carried out 12 months after the crime was committed?
Most recons are for the purpose of jogging the memories of members of the public who were in the vicinity at the time.
IMO it is patently obvious this was not the aim of this proposed recon.
Yes it is obvious, because that isn't what the Portuguese do reconstructions for.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on October 12, 2014, 12:43:19 AM
If the Portuguese are serious about solving this case they must bring the entire tapas crew, all the Smith's and other eye witnesses back to Praia da Luz and do what they should have done seven years ago.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on October 12, 2014, 09:01:44 AM
If the Portuguese are serious about solving this case they must bring the entire tapas crew, all the Smith's and other eye witnesses back to Praia da Luz and do what they should have done seven years ago.
Do you have no faith in SY John?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2014, 09:08:34 AM
Educational Requirements There are none! People can have every qualification under the sun or nothing at all. The police aren't interested in bits of paper, it is you as a person and your ability to be a police officer that they are interested in. All applicants have to complete the Police Initial Recruitment Test.
If the Portuguese are serious about solving this case they must bring the entire tapas crew, all the Smith's and other eye witnesses back to Praia da Luz and do what they should have done seven years ago.
A reconstruction with all the holidaymakers, tapas staff, McCanns and friends, Smiths and anyone else who happened to be in PdL that night? Very feasible, I'm sure!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 12, 2014, 01:31:32 PM
If the Portuguese are serious about solving this case they must bring the entire tapas crew, all the Smith's and other eye witnesses back to Praia da Luz and do what they should have done seven years ago.
I wholeheartedly agree John.
There are a lot of unanswered questions. Probably because no one wanted to ask. And as we have found out anyone who does ask in he UK is shot down as a troll!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on October 13, 2014, 02:33:04 PM
A reconstruction with all the holidaymakers, tapas staff, McCanns and friends, Smiths and anyone else who happened to be in PdL that night? Very feasible, I'm sure!
Yes, very feasible and should have be ordered long before now with attendance being compulsory and not optional! It is virtually unheard of, that primary witnesses in a child disappearance case are not compelled to attend the investigation and all that it entails. Put bluntly, it is little surprise that so many people find the whole affair so suspicious.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: misty on October 13, 2014, 03:14:17 PM
Yes, very feasible and should have be ordered long before now with attendance being compulsory and not optional! It is virtually unheard of, that primary witnesses in a child disappearance case are not compelled to attend the investigation and all that it entails. Put bluntly, it is little surprise that so many people find the whole affair so suspicious.
That would include Smithman, would it? Bit pointless without him.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2014, 03:37:42 PM
Yes, very feasible and should have be ordered long before now with attendance being compulsory and not optional! It is virtually unheard of, that primary witnesses in a child disappearance case are not compelled to attend the investigation and all that it entails. Put bluntly, it is little surprise that so many people find the whole affair so suspicious.
Then the time to do it would have been while witnesses were still in Portugal and before OC staff dispersed.
Unfortunately a lot of the “suspicions” in this case stem from either the action or inaction of the police; that they failed to institute such a re-enactment in the early days when it was feasible to do so, for the reasons outlined by Dr Amaral in his book should not reflect on anyone other than those who failed to carry the diligence out.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 13, 2014, 04:10:45 PM
Yes, very feasible and should have be ordered long before now with attendance being compulsory and not optional! It is virtually unheard of, that primary witnesses in a child disappearance case are not compelled to attend the investigation and all that it entails. Put bluntly, it is little surprise that so many people find the whole affair so suspicious.
Seriously? You think it's feasible to reassemble a cast of dozens for a reconstruction seven years after the event and this would somehow help solve the case? If that really is the case why do you suppose neither the Met nor the PJ have insisted on it?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on October 15, 2014, 10:13:56 AM
We don't know what links may or may not be relevant as we are not being given a runnning commentary on the case, but even if they turn out to be unconnected , how could the PJ/SY establish that without first investigating them?
IMO SY are investigating leads which should have been given proper attention before but were not. Even if current investigations result in previously potential suspects - or theories - being ruled out - then that is a step forward.
The perpetrator(s) of this crime may never be found but at least the McCanns will have some comfort - no matter how small, in knowing that the case was finally FULLY investigated and that everything that could have been done has now been done.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on October 15, 2014, 11:42:48 AM
We don't know what links may or may not be relevant as we are not being given a runnning commentary on the case, but even if they turn out to be unconnected , how could the PJ/SY establish that without first investigating them?
IMO SY are investigating leads which should have been given proper attention before but were not. Even if current investigations result in previously potential suspects - or theories - being ruled out - then that is a step forward.
The perpetrator(s) of this crime may never be found but at least the McCanns will have some comfort - no matter how small, in knowing that the case was finally FULLY investigated and that everything that could have been done has now been done.
Untrue on so many levels. Everything has not been done because the tapas group thwarted the investigators... of that they are most deffo GUILTY!!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Jean-Pierre on October 15, 2014, 11:49:09 AM
Untrue on so many levels. Everything has not been done because the tapas group thwarted the investigators... of that they are most deffo GUILTY!!
First of all any reconstruction should have been carrried out in the early stages - while the main witnesses were still around and events fresh in the mind. One of the advantages of a reconstruction is to trigger memory in the mind of other potential witnesses.
If the objective is to check logistics and feasibility, then computer modelling is far more effective - there is no need to have everyone togther on the ground.
Did Amaral seriously think that anyone would cooperate in returning to Portugal following his accusations against the McCanns on the flimsiest evidence.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: carlymichelle on October 15, 2014, 11:49:22 AM
Untrue on so many levels. Everything has not been done because the tapas group thwarted the investigators... of that they are most deffo GUILTY!!
look at the oscar pitorious case right now people kissing his butt because he is a famous athlete i believe in this case some of the mcann supporters are starstruck by the mcanns just like the oscar pitorious supporters are
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 15, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
How can any 'issues' be cleared up unless the 10 people involved could faithfully and accurately repeat their exact movements from one night - 12 months prior - at the exact time they had made them?
It would only take one of them to be a couple of minutes wrong with their recollection of the times for the recon to fail.
All an attempted recon would have proved IMO is that it is absolutely impossible for 10 people to re-create their movements without the precision of memory which, in this particular case, would be a vital requirement - in order for an accurate recon to be achieved. Apart from GM - the one thing they could not remember were precise times - and no self-respecting policeman would expect them to in those circumstances.
My apologies for not coming back sooner Benice.
It works very well in practise since you have at your disposal a group of people who have shared an experience and are being asked to relive it. Inconsistencies can usually be ruled out but massive gaps can be exposed at the same time. It is exactly like the confrontation which is used by the police in Portugal to iron out discrepancies.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on October 16, 2014, 01:31:11 PM
I think the question should be why Dr Amaral declined to carry out a reconstruction in the early days of the inquiry when there was some chance new information which might have led to Madeleine's return or at least finding what happened to her might have been forthcoming.
Gonçalo Amaral already answered that question. He stated that the media presence in the town made a reconstitution unworkable. Clearly, the PJ was starved of the necessary resources at the time otherwise they could have kicked the media out of town and did a reconstitution.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on October 16, 2014, 01:35:13 PM
It works very well in practise since you have at your disposal a group of people who have shared an experience and are being asked to relive it. Inconsistencies can usually be ruled out but massive gaps can be exposed at the same time. It is exactly like the confrontation which is used by the police in Portugal to iron out discrepancies.
This technique is not unique to Portugal. Even in the UK witnesses are often brought back to the scene of a crime to reenact it or advise on a reconstruction. It's amazing how much people can recall sometimes when they are taken back to the scene of an incident.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 16, 2014, 02:07:20 PM
Gonçalo Amaral already answered that question. He stated that the media presence in the town made a reconstitution unworkable. Clearly, the PJ was starved of the necessary resources at the time otherwise they could have kicked the media out of town and did a reconstitution.
Yes I agree with that John. However, that should not have been a 'there will never be a reconstruction' ever scenario.
When the PJ did request one, the McCanns (leaving no stone unturned) did refuse to go back and take part.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 16, 2014, 02:16:40 PM
Yes I agree with that John. However, that should not have been a 'there will never be a reconstruction' ever scenario.
When the PJ did request one, the McCanns (leaving no stone unturned) did refuse to go back and take part.
Their friends did.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 16, 2014, 02:32:40 PM
«Portuguese Journalist: A reconstruction. If you volunteer to do a reconstruction wouldn't that open the case?
Gerry McCann: We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine.
Portuguese Journalist: That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
Gerry McCann: Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
Portuguese Journalist: You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
Gerry McCann: We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened.» Excerpt from: Exclusive Video: McCanns Press Conference, February 12, 2010 (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/, 16/10.2014)
Hmm enbolden text...everything? could you not have brought that ole efit?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 16, 2014, 03:03:56 PM
Wonder if Roderick MacDonald or any of the not yet identified men who were seen hanging around in the vicinity of 5a immediately prior to Madeleine’s abduction will participate in a reconstruction of events? Not forgetting Smithman and Tannerman.
I cannot believe we are discussing timelines of people getting up and down from a table to check on their children when so much is going on in Madeleine’s case at the moment.
In my opinion the activities of those at the table in the tapas restaurant are relevant only in trying to pin down a time when an abductor would have been able to enter 5a (and the PJ and the Met haven't carried out that diligence?) discussion of a reconstruction at this remove is risible.
One individual who could have been a key witness had her statement been taken in a more professional manner and closer in time to the event is dead.
Time to move on from redundant suspicion of the past … the tapas seven can’t take the case forward … perhaps present and future suspects can.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on October 16, 2014, 03:26:23 PM
What had changed in May 2008? Same time, same place. And probably even more Media.
Gez Wilkins had refused, and had nothing to do with The McCanns. A big fail before it even got off the ground.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on October 16, 2014, 04:02:36 PM
A reconstruction is not going to go anywhere near progressing Madeleine’s case at this remove; modern policing methods and forensics are the only chance of getting anywhere.
I think it would be worth remembering that the police know much more than is in the public domain and neither the PJ or SY have made the slightest suggestion that a reconstruction is required.
>>snip<< Six separate DNA samples were found in Madeleine’s bedroom, with five being ruled out having been identified as belonging to McCann family members.
The sixth sample remains unaccounted for.
According to The Sun: “Talks will also be held on testing new DNA collected from three prime suspects in July.
«Portuguese Journalist: A reconstruction. If you volunteer to do a reconstruction wouldn't that open the case?
Gerry McCann: We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine.
Portuguese Journalist: That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
Gerry McCann: Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
Portuguese Journalist: You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
Gerry McCann: We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened.» Excerpt from: Exclusive Video: McCanns Press Conference, February 12, 2010 (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/, 16/10.2014)
Hmm enbolden text...everything? could you not have brought that ole efit?
Thank you for that quote MTI I had forgotten about those comments. He had no intention of going back no matter what he was saying behind the scenes. Fair play to that reporter for getting to the truth of it all.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on October 16, 2014, 05:00:34 PM
Good grief!
Are some people still droning on about the "reconstitution"?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on October 16, 2014, 05:03:22 PM
Wonder if Roderick MacDonald or any of the not yet identified men who were seen hanging around in the vicinity of 5a immediately prior to Madeleine’s abduction will participate in a reconstruction of events? Not forgetting Smithman and Tannerman.
I cannot believe we are discussing timelines of people getting up and down from a table to check on their children when so much is going on in Madeleine’s case at the moment.
In my opinion the activities of those at the table in the tapas restaurant are relevant only in trying to pin down a time when an abductor would have been able to enter 5a (and the PJ and the Met haven't carried out that diligence?) discussion of a reconstruction at this remove is risible.
One individual who could have been a key witness had her statement been taken in a more professional manner and closer in time to the event is dead.
Time to move on from redundant suspicion of the past … the tapas seven can’t take the case forward … perhaps present and future suspects can.
Good post.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on October 16, 2014, 05:53:15 PM
A reconstruction is not going to go anywhere near progressing Madeleine’s case at this remove; modern policing methods and forensics are the only chance of getting anywhere.
I think it would be worth remembering that the police know much more than is in the public domain and neither the PJ or SY have made the slightest suggestion that a reconstruction is required.
>>snip<< Six separate DNA samples were found in Madeleine’s bedroom, with five being ruled out having been identified as belonging to McCann family members.
The sixth sample remains unaccounted for.
According to The Sun: “Talks will also be held on testing new DNA collected from three prime suspects in July.
When did they last conduct a routine reconstruction which began at 5.30 and ended at 11.00pm - involving 10 people and was carried out 12 months after the crime was committed?
Most recons are for the purpose of jogging the memories of members of the public who were in the vicinity at the time.
IMO it is patently obvious this was not the aim of this proposed recon.
The police had three official suspects and a conflicting story of events which occurred between the 2nd and 4th of May 2007. It was only natural that they would seek to exclude those suspects if possible by any means available to them and that included a reconstitution. In saying that however, I have no doubt that the main priority for most of the tapas group was self preservation against potential child neglect charges. They embellished the child checking stories accordingly in order to save their own skins.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on December 30, 2014, 10:15:11 PM
I was with you up until the point you mentioned the McCanns and their only chance for resolution. They had that opportunity way back in 2007 but decided to put two fingers up to the Portuguese investigation when they refused to cooperate.
I for one will never understand that particular point? They should have embraced the investigation regardless of where it went. When they rightly and properly came under scrutiny as the parents do in the case of any missing youngster, they should have cooperated fully and worked with investigators while persuading them of their innocence. Attacking those charged with investigating Madeleine's disappearance was a wrong and ill conceived strategy, which has come back to bite them time and time again.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 30, 2014, 10:52:42 PM
I for one will never understand that particular point? They should have embraced the investigation regardless of where it went. When they rightly and properly came under scrutiny as the parents do in the case of any missing youngster, they should have cooperated fully and worked with investigators while persuading them of their innocence. Attacking those charged with investigating Madeleine's disappearance was a wrong and ill conceived strategy, which has come back to bite them time and time again.
They did co operate...no one can deny that the pj misunderstood the dog's alerts leading them to mistakenly believe Maddie died in the apartment...which they took to believe the parents had to be involved...
That is undeniable
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on December 30, 2014, 11:04:27 PM
They did co operate...no one can deny that the pj misunderstood the dog's alerts leading them to mistakenly believe Maddie died in the apartment...which they took to believe the parents had to be involved...
That is undeniable
If you say so but refusing to answer the simplest of questions and failing to return to take part in a reconstruction says different in my book. Not even mentioning the Marcos Correia saga or that fu.king tosser Paiva of course!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 30, 2014, 11:09:24 PM
If you say so but refusing to answer the simplest of questions and failing to return to take part in a reconstruction says different in my book. Not even mentioning the Marcos Correia saga or the fu.king tosser Paiva of course!
They answered plenty of questions over many hours.....the PJ misunderstood the dog's alerts....they were on completely the wrong track
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on December 30, 2014, 11:13:45 PM
If you say so but refusing to answer the simplest of questions and failing to return to take part in a reconstruction says different in my book. Not even mentioning the Marcos Correia saga or the fu.king tosser Paiva of course!
They had no option but to return; their arguido status compelled it; and they are on record as having agreed anyway.
Some of the others wanted assurances which were not forthcoming, for example Jez Wilkins who was absolutely nothing to do with them or their party. They were independent people who were perfectly capable of making their own decisions.
As to Paiva and the 'tosser' assessment ... how prescient was that?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on December 30, 2014, 11:27:13 PM
They had no option but to return; their arguido status compelled it; and they are on record as having agreed anyway.
Some of the others wanted assurances which were not forthcoming, for example Jez Wilkins who was absolutely nothing to do with them or their party. They were independent people who were perfectly capable of making their own decisions.
As to Paiva and the 'tosser' assessment ... how prescient was that?
They had no option but to return... but didn't.
That's a fact however much the sequence of events is spun and interpreted.
There were three in the partnership, and Mitchell had already intervened and spoken for them much earlier in the negotiations.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 30, 2014, 11:28:52 PM
That's a fact however much the sequence of events is spun and interpreted.
There were three in the partnership, and Mitchell had already intervened and spoken for them much earlier in the negotiations.
you are wrong...the reconstruction was cancelled when the tapas refused
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on December 30, 2014, 11:33:53 PM
Why did the tapas refuse? This is a lost little girl maybe a murder ffs. I would do everything in my power to help I would like to think even if it meant be suspected for a time... The Portuguese investigation was the best chance they had of helping her at the time.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 30, 2014, 11:38:16 PM
Why did the tapas refuse? This is a lost little girl maybe a murder ffs. I would do everything in my power to help I would like to think even if it meant be suspected for a time... The Portuguese investigation was the best chance they had of helping her at the time.
unwilling to co operate with a bunch of incompetents...fear of arrest by a bunch of incompetents......realising that the pj investigation was a complete waste of time as they had misunderstood the dogs' alerts and thought the parents were guilty
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on December 30, 2014, 11:42:17 PM
unwilling to co operate with a bunch of incompetents...fear of arrest by a bunch of incompetents......realising that the pj investigation was a complete waste of time as they had misunderstood the dogs' alerts and thought the parents were guilty
If what you say is completley true still their best hope of finding the girl at the time was to convince the Portuguese of their innocence. By completley dismissing their investigation you give up hope for her Imo. It was indeed a tricky situation for sure I can see that whether they were innocent or guilty.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 30, 2014, 11:45:44 PM
If what you say is completley true still their best hope of finding the girl at the time was to convince the Portuguese of their innocence. By completley dismissing their investigation you give up hope for her Imo.
The portuguese should have realised by then that the parents were not involved as SY and the new PJ investigation has...they may well have seen how cipriano had been found guilty on no real evidence and feared the same would happen to them
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on December 30, 2014, 11:48:02 PM
That's a fact however much the sequence of events is spun and interpreted.
There were three in the partnership, and Mitchell had already intervened and spoken for them much earlier in the negotiations.
... Davel has pointed out one error; allow me to point out another.
Clarence Mitchell, the spokesperson for the couple, most certainly did not speak for them much earlier in the negotiations.
There was never any question that the Drs McCann had voluntarily agreed a date to return to Portugal to play their part in a reconstitution.
Maybe you should concentrate more on why there was no attempt to carry out this exercise when it was suggested months before and when it might have had some relevance to finding Madeleine.
**snip**
Madeleine: The McCanns will travel to Portugal, but friends question the re-enactment of the girl’s disappearance
London, 23rd May (Lusa News Agency) - Kate and Gerry McCann are still willing and they will obey to a notification of the Police to participate in a reconstitution of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, but their friends question the validity and the proposed model.
“Basically, it is not up to Gerry and Kate [the realization of the reconstitution] because they are arguidos and, if their presence is requested, and if they have to go, they will go ", guaranteed today the spokesman of the couple, Clarence Mitchell, to the Portuguese News Agency. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/05/mccann-accept-returning-to-portugal.html
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on December 30, 2014, 11:55:58 PM
The portuguese should have realised by then that the parents were not involved as SY and the new PJ investigation has...they may well have seen how cipriano had been found guilty on no real evidence and feared the same would happen to them
The Cipriano case. Another hot potato. They should have been forced to go back via a prosecution for not cooperating with the police in a abduction/murder inquiry. I assume you would be compelled to in the UK or there are measures in place?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 31, 2014, 12:04:49 AM
The Cipriano case. Another hot potato. They should have been forced to go back via a prosecution for not cooperating with the police in a abduction/murder inquiry. I assume you would be compelled to in the UK or there are measures in place?
I don't see how the tapas could have been forced to return.....this has already been discussed d nauseam on the appropriate thread
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on December 31, 2014, 12:27:31 AM
... Davel has pointed out one error; allow me to point out another.
Clarence Mitchell, the spokesperson for the couple, most certainly did not speak for them much earlier in the negotiations.
There was never any question that the Drs McCann had voluntarily agreed a date to return to Portugal to play their part in a reconstitution.
Maybe you should concentrate more on why there was no attempt to carry out this exercise when it was suggested months before and when it might have had some relevance to finding Madeleine.
**snip**
Madeleine: The McCanns will travel to Portugal, but friends question the re-enactment of the girl’s disappearance
London, 23rd May (Lusa News Agency) - Kate and Gerry McCann are still willing and they will obey to a notification of the Police to participate in a reconstitution of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, but their friends question the validity and the proposed model.
“Basically, it is not up to Gerry and Kate [the realization of the reconstitution] because they are arguidos and, if their presence is requested, and if they have to go, they will go ", guaranteed today the spokesman of the couple, Clarence Mitchell, to the Portuguese News Agency. http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/05/mccann-accept-returning-to-portugal.html
The rogatory interviews were 6 to 7 weeks before that date. It's easy to sign a piece of paper that says yes when you know it's not going to happen.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on December 31, 2014, 01:13:00 AM
Why did the tapas refuse? This is a lost little girl maybe a murder ffs. I would do everything in my power to help I would like to think even if it meant be suspected for a time... The Portuguese investigation was the best chance they had of helping her at the time.
I'll go with that Lord P. The Portuguese investigation was the one and only chance of getting closure.
If the McCann's had really wanted it the others would have returned on queue...they refused so work that out. 8(0(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on December 31, 2014, 01:18:08 AM
The Cipriano case. Another hot potato. They should have been forced to go back via a prosecution for not cooperating with the police in a abduction/murder inquiry. I assume you would be compelled to in the UK or there are measures in place?
And the sole reason they weren't was because of political interference by Brown and Co.
Now as Anna pointed out, this thread relates to Sonia Poulton and her claimed new documentary which she says will be aired after the Brenda Leyland coroners verdict is returned. Personally, I cannot see it adding anything new to what we already know as SY have failed to turn up any leads following the latest round of interviews.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: TitoMuzzy on December 31, 2014, 02:22:53 AM
The Portuguese investigation was the one and only chance of getting closure.
Time to get off the fence John ! Please don't pussyfoot around, do you believe that the McCann couple are complicit in any way in the disappearance of their eldest daughter, Madeleine ?
Furthermore why do you state that "the Portuguese investigation was the one and only chance of getting closure" to this case ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 31, 2014, 08:34:45 AM
The portuguese should have realised by then that the parents were not involved as SY and the new PJ investigation has...they may well have seen how cipriano had been found guilty on no real evidence and feared the same would happen to them
So, if the McCanns are innocent, why don't they want to find this guy?
If what you say is completley true still their best hope of finding the girl at the time was to convince the Portuguese of their innocence. By completley dismissing their investigation you give up hope for her Imo. It was indeed a tricky situation for sure I can see that whether they were innocent or guilty.
Please tell me what the McCanns could have said in their arguido interviews to convince the police of their innocence? "It wasn't me, honest guv", would that have worked?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on December 31, 2014, 10:02:47 AM
I'll go with that Lord P. The Portuguese investigation was the one and only chance of getting closure.
If the McCann's had really wanted it the others would have returned on queue...they refused so work that out. 8(0(*
I think we are off topic - but since you mention it - I'm still waiting for someone to work this out :-
---------------------------------------- The recon.
PJ officer to Jez: ''We would like you to set off at the same time you did on 3rd May and repeat your movements on that night from then on..''
Jez: '' But I don't know for definite what time it was when I set out. What happens if I guess the wrong time and go a couple of minutes later than I did on 3rd May and when I arrive at the spot where I met Gerry - he's left 5A and has walked back into the Tapas area before I get there. What do I do then?''
PJ officer to Jez. '' Errmmm...............................................................''(please fill in this blank) --------------------
IIRC one of the PJ's stipulations was that unless everyone agreed to go - the recon would not happen - so once Jez Wilkins had decided not to go - it was a ''no-go' anyway for the rest of them.
IMO the PJ knew there was virtually no chance of the Tapas 7 returning - and in fact were banking on that being the case. IMO it was a face-saving operation by the PJ - where they could offload the 'blame' for having to shelve the case. And it worked!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 31, 2014, 10:08:21 AM
I think we are off topic - but since you mention it - I'm still waiting for someone to work this out :-
---------------------------------------- The recon.
PJ officer to Jez: ''We would like you to set off at the same time you did on 3rd May and repeat your movements on that night from then on..''
Jez: '' But I don't know for definite what time it was when I set out. What happens if I guess the wrong time and go a couple of minutes later than I did on 3rd May and when I arrive at the spot where I met Gerry - he's left 5A and has walked back into the Tapas area before I get there. What do I do then?''
PJ officer to Jez. '' Errmmm...............................................................''(please fill in this blank) --------------------
IIRC one of the PJ's stipulations was that unless everyone agreed to go - the recon would not happen - so once Jez Wilkins had decided not to go - it was a ''no-go' anyway for the rest of them.
IMO the PJ knew there was virtually no chance of the Tapas 7 returning - and in fact were banking on that being the case. IMO it was a face-saving operation by the PJ - where they could offload the 'blame' for having to shelve the case. And it worked!
Let's think what would have happened if the tapas had the group returned and convinced the pj of their innocence.....
Did the pj have any other leads to pursue...and therefore why didn't they pursue them...or as it seems did they simply have nowhere else to turn...
On those lines the failure for the mccanns to return made absolutely no difference to the continuation of the investigation...the pj were at a dead end
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on December 31, 2014, 10:23:07 AM
I think we are off topic - but since you mention it - I'm still waiting for someone to work this out :-
---------------------------------------- The recon.
PJ officer to Jez: ''We would like you to set off at the same time you did on 3rd May and repeat your movements on that night from then on..''
Jez: '' But I don't know for definite what time it was when I set out. What happens if I guess the wrong time and go a couple of minutes later than I did on 3rd May and when I arrive at the spot where I met Gerry - he's left 5A and has walked back into the Tapas area before I get there. What do I do then?''
PJ officer to Jez. '' Errmmm...............................................................''(please fill in this blank) --------------------
IIRC one of the PJ's stipulations was that unless everyone agreed to go - the recon would not happen - so once Jez Wilkins had decided not to go - it was a ''no-go' anyway for the rest of them.
IMO the PJ knew there was virtually no chance of the Tapas 7 returning - and in fact were banking on that being the case. IMO it was a face-saving operation by the PJ - where they could offload the 'blame' for having to shelve the case. And it worked!
The archiving report explains the purpose of the reconstruction :
reconstruction
Taking into account that there were certain points in the arguidos' and witnesses' statements that revealed, apparently at least, contradiction or that lacked physical confirmation, it was decided to carry out the "reconstruction of the fact", a diligence that is consecrated in article 150 of the Penal Process Code in the sense of duly clarifying, on the very location of the facts, the following very important details, among others:
1 – The physical, real and effective proximity between Jane Tanner, Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, at the moment when the first person walked by them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, in our perspective, strange that neither Gerald McCann nor Jeremy Wilkins saw her, or the alleged abductor, despite the exiguity of the space and the peacefulness of the area;
2 – The situation concerning the window to the bedroom where Madeleine slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to Kate. It seemed then necessary to clarify if there was a draught, since movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which, eventually, could be verified through the reconstitution;
3 – The establishment of a timeline and of a line of effective checking on the minors that were left alone in the apartments, given that, if it is believed that such checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, at least, very difficult to reunite conditions for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said abductor, with the child, namely through a window with scarce space. It is added that the supposed abductor could only pass, through that window, holding the minor in a different position (vertical) from the one that witness JANE TANNER saw (horizontal);
It is obvious that the primary intent of the reconstitution was to ascertain whether certain physical aspects of the protagonists statements were possible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on December 31, 2014, 10:31:44 AM
If the reconstruction was so critical...why has SY not called for one and why has the new Portuguese investigation not called for one
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on December 31, 2014, 10:45:48 AM
With all their technology, SY should be able to do an animated computer simulation - perhaps they already have, but choose not to mention it.
I believe SY did do an animated reconstruction jassi.
The Portuguese police could have stopped the McCann's going home at any time, they could have insisted they stayed and did a reconstruction, they didn't.
The McCann's made it clear they would return for a reconstruction, the Portuguese police could have had them back and used actors for the rest of the Tapas group. After all it was only the McCann's they wanted to put through the 48 questions wasn't it?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on December 31, 2014, 10:53:54 AM
The archiving report explains the purpose of the reconstruction :
reconstruction
Taking into account that there were certain points in the arguidos' and witnesses' statements that revealed, apparently at least, contradiction or that lacked physical confirmation, it was decided to carry out the "reconstruction of the fact", a diligence that is consecrated in article 150 of the Penal Process Code in the sense of duly clarifying, on the very location of the facts, the following very important details, among others:
1 – The physical, real and effective proximity between Jane Tanner, Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, at the moment when the first person walked by them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, in our perspective, strange that neither Gerald McCann nor Jeremy Wilkins saw her, or the alleged abductor, despite the exiguity of the space and the peacefulness of the area;
2 – The situation concerning the window to the bedroom where Madeleine slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to Kate. It seemed then necessary to clarify if there was a draught, since movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which, eventually, could be verified through the reconstitution;
3 – The establishment of a timeline and of a line of effective checking on the minors that were left alone in the apartments, given that, if it is believed that such checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, at least, very difficult to reunite conditions for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said abductor, with the child, namely through a window with scarce space. It is added that the supposed abductor could only pass, through that window, holding the minor in a different position (vertical) from the one that witness JANE TANNER saw (horizontal);
It is obvious that the primary intent of the reconstitution was to ascertain whether certain physical aspects of the protagonists statements were possible.
So all you have to do now Faith - is explain how it could be done - when 9 of the 10 people were only able to give APPROXIMATE times of when they did different things.
Normally with recons. it wouldn't matter if the timing was not exactly how it was at the time of the crime down to the last minute - but in this particular case it was CRUCIAL that from a 'timing' POV everyone was able to replicate their movements with precision and accuracy for it to work. And accuracy was the one thing they could not guarantee.
JT couldn't say whether it was 5 mins or 10 mins or sometime inbetween those times that she left the table after Gerry. So if she was just a minute or two out with the time she chose at a recon. then she could have been either up the top of the road before Gerry and Jez met, or could have still been sitting at the table when Gerry returned.
My question is how would the PJ have dealt with this obvious and very serious obstacle to an accurate reconstruction being able to happen - especially considering the group were only going to get one go at it?
Any ideas?
p.s. And how on earth were the PJ going to be able to guarantee that the same breeze was blowing at a recon as on the 3rd May?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on December 31, 2014, 10:59:30 AM
So all you have to do now Faith - is explain how it could be done - when 9 of the 10 people were only able to give APPROXIMATE times of when they did different things.
Normally with recons. it wouldn't matter if the timing was not exactly how it was at the time of the crime down to the last minute - but in this particular case it was CRUCIAL that from a 'timing' POV everyone was able to replicate their movements with precision and accuracy for it to work. And accuracy was the one thing they could not guarantee.
JT couldn't say whether it was 5 mins or 10 mins or sometime inbetween those times that she left the table after Gerry. So if she was just a minute or two out with the time she chose at a recon. then she could have been either up the top of the road before Gerry and Jez met, or could have still been sitting at the table when Gerry returned.
My question is how would the PJ have dealt with this obvious and very serious obstacle to an accurate reconstruction being able to happen - especially considering the group were only going to get one go at it?
Any ideas?
p.s. And how on earth were the PJ going to be able to guarantee that the same breeze was blowing at a recon as on the 3rd May?
There would have been at least dozens of different permutations of events that would have needed to have been re-enacted in order to cover all the minor timing discrepancies in the dozen or more witness statements for the events of that evening. It would have taken them days if not weeks to reconstruct them all, and then who would have decided which one was the correct one? Rebelo, who wasn't even there on the night? It's farcical!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on December 31, 2014, 10:59:36 AM
Exactly...to see if the tapas were lying....nothing to do with finding maddie......the pj had no other leads apart from the parents...they have now been shown to be wrong
The PJ had legitimate concerns. The McCanns and their friends, if they were really interested in redirecting the investigation to find the child, would have done anything in their power to make that happen.
Tell me how exactly could Jane, Gerry and co could have been shown to be wrong if they had simply re enacted what had taken place ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lace on December 31, 2014, 11:01:23 AM
The PJ had legitimate concerns. The McCanns and their friends, if they were really interested in redirecting the investigation to find the child, would have done anything in their power to make that happen.
Tell me how exactly could Jane, Gerry and co could have been shown to be wrong if they had simply re enacted what had taken place ?
Why did Amaral cancel the reconstruction in the first place?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on December 31, 2014, 11:05:13 AM
With all their technology, SY should be able to do an animated computer simulation - perhaps they already have, but choose not to mention it.
They already have done one Jassi - and also mentioned it :-
Quote from Andy Redwood
''We have conducted a Forensic Analysis of the timelines and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive. End quote
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 31, 2014, 11:30:45 AM
The timeline is straight forward when you ignore the BS.
8:55 - The Payne's and Webster leave their apartment
8:55 - Matt leaves the tapas to go and see where they are.
8:56 - They meet by apartment 5A.
8:57 - Matt performs a listening check outside windows
9 pm - Matt arrives back at tapas. Matt says as soon as he gets back Gerry leaves the table to go and do his check.
9:10 - The time Jane says she left the table after Kate says Gerry is probably watching football to explain his long absence.
9:11/12 - Jane says she sees Gerry and Jez chatting in the street. At the top of the road she sees a man crossing the road carrying a child.
9:15 - Gerry returns to table. So he was gone up to 15 minutes. Any detective would want to know what's he's been doing in all that time away from the table.
9:16 - Jane returns to table.
9:25 - Matt and Russ leave table to check.
9:30 - Matt does his final check inside 5A.
9:33 - Matt returns to table and tells Jane that her daughter is ill.
9:37 - Jane leaves table.
9:45 - Russ returns to table. Gone for 20 minutes.
9:51 - Kate leaves table to check. Around the same time Russ receives his steak.
9:54 - Kate raises the alarm. Russ had only had a few bites of his steak when she returns.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on December 31, 2014, 11:32:06 AM
They already have done one Jassi - and also mentioned it :-
Quote from Andy Redwood
''We have conducted a Forensic Analysis of the timelines and there is clearly opportunity there for Madeleine McCann to have been removed from that apartment alive. End quote
No one disputes that there was enough time but Benice simply that it could not have happened as reported. Rebelo was obviously cynical of Tanner's claim to have walked past Gerry and Jez unnoticed and also the whooshing of the bedroom door. These were the main reasons he wanted them to reconstruct the incident and I can't in all honesty say I blame him.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on December 31, 2014, 11:33:25 AM
The timeline is straight forward when you ignore the BS.
8:55 - The Payne's and Webster leave their apartment
8:55 - Matt leaves the tapas to go and see where they are.
8:56 - They meet by apartment 5A.
8:57 - Matt performs a listening check outside windows
9 pm - Matt arrives back at tapas. Matt says as soon as he gets back Gerry leaves the table to go and do his check.
9:10 - The time Jane says she left the table after Kate says Gerry is probably watching football to explain his long absence.
9:11/12 - Jane says she sees Gerry and Jez chatting in the street. At the top of the road she sees a man crossing the road carrying a child.
9:15 - Gerry returns to table. So he was gone up to 15 minutes. Any detective would want to know what's he's been doing in all that time away from the table.
9:16 - Jane returns to table.
9:25 - Matt and Russ leave table to check.
9:30 - Matt does his final check inside 5A.
9:33 - Matt returns to table and tells Jane that her daughter is ill.
9:37 - Jane leaves table.
9:45 - Russ returns to table.
9:51 - Kate leaves table to check. Around the same time Russ receives his steak.
9:54 - Kate raises the alarm. Russ had only had a few bites of his steak when she returns.
Diane Webster was categorical in her first statement that they met no one on their way to the tapas.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 31, 2014, 11:38:03 AM
Diane Webster was categorical in her first statement that they met no one on their way to the tapas.
4078 ”Do you remember who was there when you got there?” Reply ”Well Matt obviously wasn’t because we’d just passed him but of course I don’t remember this at the time, and I think in my original statement I thought maybe Gerry wasn’t there, but maybe he was, you know, I don’t know.”
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on December 31, 2014, 11:42:38 AM
The PJ had legitimate concerns. The McCanns and their friends, if they were really interested in redirecting the investigation to find the child, would have done anything in their power to make that happen.
Tell me how exactly could Jane, Gerry and co could have been shown to be wrong if they had simply re enacted what had taken place ?
The Tapas 7 also had legitimate concerns after the way they had been treated in the PT media and having to watch Gerry and Kate, whom they knew to be innocent being made arguidos - and by a policeman who was already an arguido himself regarding alleged misconduct in his previous missing child case.
Any reasonable person would agree they had every right to be suspicious in those circumstances IMO. The PJ were unable to allay those suspicions/concerns - which IMO was a deliberate action to put them off from agreeing to attend.
You still haven't answered how the PJ were going to deal with the 'approximate time' problems which made an accurate recon. almost certainly impossible to achieve imo.
Any ideas?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 31, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
The Tapas 7 also had legitimate concerns after the way they had been treated in the PT media and having to watch Gerry and Kate, whom they knew to be innocent being made arguidos - and by a policeman who was already an arguido himself regarding alleged misconduct in his previous missing child case.
Any reasonable person would agree they had every right to be suspicious in those circumstances IMO. The PJ were unable to allay those suspicions/concerns - which IMO was a deliberate action to put them off from agreeing to attend.
You still haven't answered how the PJ were going to deal with the 'approximate time' problems which made an accurate recon. almost certainly impossible to achieve imo.
Any ideas?
They would be interested in Jane passing Gerry and Jez. How it happened @)(++(* Russ and Gerry's long absence away. That could be any time but they would still be saying you were gone a long time boyo! What were you doing @)(++(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 06, 2015, 05:03:51 PM
If the reconstruction was so critical...why has SY not called for one and why has the new Portuguese investigation not called for one
Why? Have those who refused to cooperate back in 2007/2008 had a change of heart and decided to put Madeleine's interests before their own at last? I would be very much surprised if they have!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 06, 2015, 05:55:21 PM
Why? Have those who refused to cooperate back in 2007/2008 had a change of heart and decided to put Madeleine's interests before their own at last? I would be very much surprised if they have!
It could be a good move to ask now because the innocent will take that step to fully cooperate if they want to put an end to it. To split them apart and mess with their heads is a good idea. It's time to take the kid gloves off. I would do it to see their reaction. You need to be in control of the situation not them. Or you make them feel like their in control and safe when they're not which could be happening right now &%+((£
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 06, 2015, 06:01:10 PM
It could be a good move to ask now because the innocent will take that step to fully cooperate if they want to put an end to it. To split them apart and mess with their heads is a good idea. It's time to take the kid gloves off. I would do it to see their reaction. You need to be in control of the situation not them. Or you make them feel like their in control and safe when they're not which could be happening right now &%+((£
Not sure that would be seen in certain quarters as being awfully helpful.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 06, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
It could be a good move to ask now because the innocent will take that step to fully cooperate if they want to put an end to it. To split them apart and mess with their heads is a good idea. It's time to take the kid gloves off. I would do it to see their reaction. You need to be in control of the situation not them. Or you make them feel like their in control and safe when they're not which could be happening right now &%+((£
Eight years later, you'd be no more than an actor attempting to follow whatever script (s) you're given.
A shame that Amaral didn't get a re-enactment organised when the T9, OC employees, locals and various tourists would have been there with their memories still fresh back in May 2007.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 06, 2015, 07:58:32 PM
Why? Have those who refused to cooperate back in 2007/2008 had a change of heart and decided to put Madeleine's interests before their own at last? I would be very much surprised if they have!
No...It's because the investigating team think it's a stupid idea and that the parents are not involved in any crime
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 06, 2015, 08:20:49 PM
Statistics disagree. Only a fool would believe the crap we're fed.
statistics would not disagree...only a fool would believe the crap you have been fed by the portuguese
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: misty on January 06, 2015, 08:58:19 PM
Surely the emphasis should have been not on what the Tapas 9 say they were doing but what they were seen by others to be doing.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 06, 2015, 09:16:00 PM
Would anyone care to say exactly what would be gained by the Drs McCann ... their friends and one mother-in-law ... Jez Wilkins ... and innocent man ... returning to Praia Da Luz to take part in a reconstitution? and why is it important for some people to require it ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 06, 2015, 09:31:11 PM
Would anyone care to say exactly what would be gained by the Drs McCann ... their friends and one mother-in-law ... Jez Wilkins ... and innocent man ... returning to Praia Da Luz to take part in a reconstitution? and why is it important for some people to require it ...
Would anyone care to say exactly what would be gained by the Drs McCann ... their friends and one mother-in-law ... Jez Wilkins ... and innocent man ... returning to Praia Da Luz to take part in a reconstitution? and why is it important for some people to require it ...
Nothing could be gained - it's just another stick to beat the McCanns with IMO.
It doesn't matter that SY have already done a forensic analysis of the timelines - and no doubt shared it with their Portuguese counterparts, or that a recon. by 10 people who can only give approximate times of their movements means it's not even possible to achieve anyway. Or even that the McCanns and their friends have been ruled out of the enquiry. What is important to some is the preservation of something to criticise the McCanns with.
Straw-clutching on a grand scale. IMO.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on January 06, 2015, 09:55:47 PM
Would anyone care to say exactly what would be gained by the Drs McCann ... their friends and one mother-in-law ... Jez Wilkins ... and innocent man ... returning to Praia Da Luz to take part in a reconstitution? and why is it important for some people to require it ...
A reconstruction will not show any more than, what is already in the statements IMO. How could they get all of the OC workers etc. etc. to attend anyway.
Interesting bit I recently read.......
Portimão, 20th of June 2008" It is a notable summary and while the strangulated prose of the original testifies to the bitter experience of confessing failure its conclusions are significant. Reading from the final sentence back:
They state that they are pursuing no new lines of enquiry and nor do they envision any.
That their investigation was hampered by unprecedented media exposure and "commotion".
That the UK "rogatory letter" interviewees, principally the "Tapas 7" , provided no additional information.
That they are still lacking information about what happened within the holiday group between 5.30 & 10PM on May 3.
That the "timeline" provided by the holiday group makes it "at the least very difficult" for an abductor to have entered and left.
That the information (provided by Kate McCann) that a draught had alerted her to a previously unopened window needed clarification or replication.
That the circumstances of the Jane Tanner sighting were hard to reconcile with the geography of the location and the close proximity of others.
And that clarification of these and other matters could not be obtained due to the "refusal" of members of the holiday group to return to Portugal for the necessary reconstruction of events.
http://madeleinemccannaffair.blogspot.co.uk/
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 06, 2015, 10:40:06 PM
A reconstruction will not show any more than, what is already in the statements IMO. How could they get all of the OC workers etc. etc. to attend anyway.
Interesting bit I recently read.......
Portimão, 20th of June 2008" It is a notable summary and while the strangulated prose of the original testifies to the bitter experience of confessing failure its conclusions are significant. Reading from the final sentence back:
They state that they are pursuing no new lines of enquiry and nor do they envision any.
That their investigation was hampered by unprecedented media exposure and "commotion".
That the UK "rogatory letter" interviewees, principally the "Tapas 7" , provided no additional information.
That they are still lacking information about what happened within the holiday group between 5.30 & 10PM on May 3.
That the "timeline" provided by the holiday group makes it "at the least very difficult" for an abductor to have entered and left.
[b]That the information (provided by Kate McCann) that a draught had alerted her to a previously unopened window needed clarification or replication.[/b]
That the circumstances of the Jane Tanner sighting were hard to reconcile with the geography of the location and the close proximity of others.
And that clarification of these and other matters could not be obtained due to the "refusal" of members of the holiday group to return to Portugal for the necessary reconstruction of events.
http://madeleinemccannaffair.blogspot.co.uk/
How on earth could Kate McCann entering 5A as part of a recon possibly guarantee that an exact replication of the weather conditions of 12 months prior would somehow miraculously happen and that the same breeze would blow at exactly the same time as it did on 3rd May? What if there was no wind on the night of the recon?
The mind boggles at the sheer ridiculousness of that 'requirement for clarification' by the PJ. IMO
And what was stopping the PJ doing that 'clarification check' for themselves - they had all the details of what Kate said had happened. Why subject her to what would be an excrutiatingly painful exercise, when they could do it perfectly easily without her.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on January 06, 2015, 10:50:25 PM
How on earth could Kate McCann entering 5A as part of a recon possibly guarantee that an exact replication of the weather conditions of 12 months prior would somehow miraculously happen and that the same breeze would blow at exactly the same time as it did on 3rd May? What if there was no wind on the night of the recon?
The mind boggles at the sheer ridiculousness of that 'requirement for clarification' by the PJ. IMO
And what was stopping the PJ doing that 'clarification check' for themselves - they had all the details of what Kate said had happened. Why subject her to what would be an excrutiatingly painful exercise, when they could do it perfectly easily without her.
I don't believe there is anything on that list that would be resolved with a reconstruction. JT sighting could not be reconstructed without Jez, who could not attend. The rest is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 06, 2015, 10:56:03 PM
It's probably to do with there being no absolute timings in the statements, and no independent witnesses to anything that happened away from the table in those statements.
The reconstruction could have assisted the arguidos and companions if it had taken place by finally being able to accurately measure timing of events.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Bert Singe on January 06, 2015, 10:56:58 PM
How on earth could Kate McCann entering 5A as part of a recon possibly guarantee that an exact replication of the weather conditions of 12 months prior would somehow miraculously happen and that the same breeze would blow at exactly the same time as it did on 3rd May? What if there was no wind on the night of the recon?
The mind boggles at the sheer ridiculousness of that 'requirement for clarification' by the PJ. IMO
And what was stopping the PJ doing that 'clarification check' for themselves - they had all the details of what Kate said had happened. Why subject her to what would be an excrutiatingly painful exercise, when they could do it perfectly easily without her.
A reconstruction is surely better than no reconstruction. After all you appear to accept SY's forensic examination yet this forensic examination has taken years to materialise. An actual reconstruction may have ruled things out years ago and actually helped the McCann's and Tapas 7 to better clarify their story.
Instead it seems they may have been more fearful of their own story being discredited. Do you not think that strange?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 06, 2015, 11:02:18 PM
A reconstruction is surely better than no reconstruction. After all you appear to accept SY's forensic examination yet this forensic examination has taken years to materialise. An actual reconstruction may have ruled things out years ago and actually helped the McCann's and Tapas 7 to better clarify their story.
Instead it seems they may have been more fearful of their own story being discredited. Do you not think that strange?
They asked for a reconstruction in May 2007, but The PJ refused.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 06, 2015, 11:14:02 PM
A reconstruction is surely better than no reconstruction. After all you appear to accept SY's forensic examination yet this forensic examination has taken years to materialise. An actual reconstruction may have ruled things out years ago and actually helped the McCann's and Tapas 7 to better clarify their story.
Instead it seems they may have been more fearful of their own story being discredited. Do you not think that strange?
Well once again I ask the same question I have now asked several times but without an answer:
The recon. (bearing in mind they were only going to get one go at it)
PJ officer to Jez: We would like you to set off at the same time you did on the 3rd May last year - and repeat all your movements from then on.
Jez to PJ officer: But I don't know the exact time I set out - I can guess at the time, but what if I'm a couple of minutes out - and when I get to where I met Gerry he has already gone back into the Tapas Area - or he is still in 5A - what do I do then?
PJ officer to Jez : Errrm......................................................... (please fill in this blank.)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 06, 2015, 11:26:55 PM
It's probably to do with there being no absolute timings in the statements, and no independent witnesses to anything that happened away from the table in those statements.
The reconstruction could have assisted the arguidos and companions if it had taken place by finally being able to accurately measure timing of events.
[/b]
But that is the whole point - they could only give approximate times of their various movements so it wasn't possible to do an accurate recon. No normal people on holiday would be keeping notes of the exact timings of every move they and others made. They were on holiday not military manouvres.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 07, 2015, 12:56:28 AM
But that is the whole point - they could only give approximate times of their various movements so it wasn't possible to do an accurate recon. No normal people on holiday would be keeping notes of the exact timings of every move they and others made. They were on holiday not military manouvres.
But it is possible to accurately measure the time taken to perform those movements.
If you say they could do that with actors, I think you know why police would always prefer the real participants to be present.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Bert Singe on January 07, 2015, 07:13:01 AM
So Benice, should all reconstructions be scrapped if they are so ineffective? Or do you only accept SY's forensic analysis of the timeline as effective?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2015, 07:33:22 AM
So Benice, should all reconstructions be scrapped if they are so ineffective? Or do you only accept SY's forensic analysis of the timeline as effective?
Please point out where I have ever claimed that all reconstructions are ineffective!
I notice you chose not to ... 'fill in the blank'.... in my previous post to you. Care to say why?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on January 07, 2015, 10:01:32 AM
Please point out where I have ever claimed that all reconstructions are ineffective!
I notice you chose not to ... 'fill in the blank'.... in my previous post to you. Care to say why?
Reconstructions have only one legitimate purpose; to prompt memories, and generate new leads.
An attempt to recreate events of an actual crime to attempt to determine questions of guilt or innocence are doomed to failure, because you can never recreate things second time around exactly the same as they actually happened.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 07, 2015, 10:42:10 AM
Reconstructions have only one legitimate purpose; to prompt memories, and generate new leads.
An attempt to recreate events of an actual crime to attempt to determine questions of guilt or innocence are doomed to failure, because you can never recreate things second time around exactly the same as they actually happened.
Especially when they never did.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2015, 10:53:26 AM
Someone asked for it because Amaral is reported as refusing, and giving spurious reasons.
Dr McCann may not have mentioned it in her book but Dr Amaral did mention it in his ...
A summary of key points from 'The Truth of the Lie', 27 July 2008
44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible.
The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 07, 2015, 06:38:01 PM
Dr McCann may not have mentioned it in her book but Dr Amaral did mention it in his ...
A summary of key points from 'The Truth of the Lie', 27 July 2008
44 - It was thought to do the reconstruction in May but that wasn't possible.
The number of tourists, the number of journalists and the fact that the air space had to be closed (because of helicopters from the media) and the fact that it would make the public suspect the McCanns were being treated as suspects prevented it.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id137.html
He only put off the inevitable. Seven years later half the country and most of Portugal believe them implicated.
One person made a very good point on twitter today. Kerry Needham has never given up searching for her son all these years and has uncovered evidence which could very well lead to his discovery yet what have the McCanns done?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2015, 11:08:10 PM
He only put off the inevitable. Seven years later half the country and most of Portugal believe them implicated.
One person made a very good point on twitter today. Kerry Needham has never given up searching for her son all these years and has uncovered evidence which could very well lead to his discovery yet what have the McCanns done?
He put off the only opportunity to get all the main players together in a town with a transient population (minus the Smiths who had not yet reported their sighting but who might have put two and two together a bit sooner). MW staff ... cooks ... waiters ... visitors ... residents would have been available and someone's memory might have been jogged and so on and so on.
I think that seven years on the fact that most of Portugal believe them implicated is a product of Dr Amaral's book bolstered by his once ubiquitous appearances on the visual media.
With all due respect to Kerry Needham ... the senior officer in charge of investigating Ben's disappearance did not write a book implicating her or her family in her son's disappearance.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 07, 2015, 11:11:23 PM
He only put off the inevitable. Seven years later half the country and most of Portugal believe them implicated.
One person made a very good point on twitter today. Kerry Needham has never given up searching for her son all these years and has uncovered evidence which could very well lead to his discovery yet what have the McCanns done?
It's a good job they had a good PR machine; had they not what might more people have thought?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 07, 2015, 11:24:33 PM
It's a good job they had a good PR machine; had they not what might more people have thought?
...not to mention the lawyers, Government interference and the somewhat bewildered police officers who attended the scene! oh,oh and not forgetting the police who were 'sympathetic' and didn't press charges for child abandonment.
They had lost their reputation as well as their daughter! and that did set them in a panic.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 08, 2015, 07:26:56 AM
He put off the only opportunity to get all the main players together in a town with a transient population (minus the Smiths who had not yet reported their sighting but who might have put two and two together a bit sooner). MW staff ... cooks ... waiters ... visitors ... residents would have been available and someone's memory might have been jogged and so on and so on.
I think that seven years on the fact that most of Portugal believe them implicated is a product of Dr Amaral's book bolstered by his once ubiquitous appearances on the visual media.
With all due respect to Kerry Needham ... the senior officer in charge of investigating Ben's disappearance did not write a book implicating her or her family in her son's disappearance.
Probably because she wasn't seen carrying him away.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 08, 2015, 11:47:55 AM
A reconstruction will not show any more than, what is already in the statements IMO. How could they get all of the OC workers etc. etc. to attend anyway.
Interesting bit I recently read.......
Portimão, 20th of June 2008" It is a notable summary and while the strangulated prose of the original testifies to the bitter experience of confessing failure its conclusions are significant. Reading from the final sentence back:
They state that they are pursuing no new lines of enquiry and nor do they envision any.
That their investigation was hampered by unprecedented media exposure and "commotion".
That the UK "rogatory letter" interviewees, principally the "Tapas 7" , provided no additional information.
That they are still lacking information about what happened within the holiday group between 5.30 & 10PM on May 3.
That the "timeline" provided by the holiday group makes it "at the least very difficult" for an abductor to have entered and left.
That the information (provided by Kate McCann) that a draught had alerted her to a previously unopened window needed clarification or replication.
That the circumstances of the Jane Tanner sighting were hard to reconcile with the geography of the location and the close proximity of others.
And that clarification of these and other matters could not be obtained due to the "refusal" of members of the holiday group to return to Portugal for the necessary reconstruction of events.
http://madeleinemccannaffair.blogspot.co.uk/
Very true. The Portuguese example of using a reconstitution (not actors) instead of a reconstruction (using actors) is something we in the UK could learn from. The confrontation when Robert Murat faced his accusers is also unique to Portugal.
The whole point of a reconstitution is to find the liars and identify those who have for some reason or other been less than forthcoming where the true nature of events are concerned. You only need to look at the accidental confrontation when Jane Tanner was intentionally usurped by Gerry McCann when she attempted to show how he got his recollection wrong as to where he and Jez were situated that fateful night. Question is, what else did he get WRONG?
A full reconstitution would reveal the sequence of events on the night Madeleine disappeared. Who was where, when and why. It wouldn't take long for any fabricated timeline to fall apart in such circumstances.
Every single person who was known to have been there that night should have been forced to take part in the reconstitution, anyone failing to do so should have been charged with the Portuguese equivalent of attempting to pervert the course of justice. Had this been done I bet nobody would have refused to take part!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 05:27:27 AM
Reconstructions have only one legitimate purpose; to prompt memories, and generate new leads.
An attempt to recreate events of an actual crime to attempt to determine questions of guilt or innocence are doomed to failure, because you can never recreate things second time around exactly the same as they actually happened.
Oh indeed you can. Except of course when the witness or witnesses lied.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2015, 07:57:25 AM
Oh indeed you can. Except of course when the witness or witnesses lied.
If that is indeed the case perhaps you could answer the question posed by Bernice about Jez's response when asked by the police in a potential reconstruction regarding what time he set off on his walk.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2015, 08:43:13 AM
That's right..to see if the parents were lying or not...that's what the recon could establish....nothing more
The McCanns are not in charge of the investigation but their supporters seem to think they are and can do what they please. They have questions to answer and remember they aren't suspects now so they should agree but they wouldn't 8)--))
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2015, 11:50:54 AM
Very true. The Portuguese example of using a reconstitution (not actors) instead of a reconstruction (using actors) is something we in the UK could learn from. The confrontation when Robert Murat faced his accusers is also unique to Portugal.
The whole point of a reconstitution is to find the liars and identify those who have for some reason or other been less than forthcoming where the true nature of events are concerned. You only need to look at the accidental confrontation when Jane Tanner was intentionally usurped by Gerry McCann when she attempted to show how he got his recollection wrong as to where he and Jez were situated that fateful night. Question is, what else did he get WRONG?
A full reconstitution would reveal the sequence of events on the night Madeleine disappeared. Who was where, when and why. It wouldn't take long for any fabricated timeline to fall apart in such circumstances.
Every single person who was known to have been there that night should have been forced to take part in the reconstitution, anyone failing to do so should have been charged with the Portuguese equivalent of attempting to pervert the course of justice. Had this been done I bet nobody would have refused to take part!
If they had been forced to attend, they couldn't have refused, as you so rightly say, John, but although the McCanns agreed to attend, others that were necessary, to carry out the re-con, did refuse and the whole thing was cancelled by PT. What is the point of discussing, what could have been or what should have been, when it wasn't and there is nothing more can be done about it, except to do a re-con now. I should think since it would have been difficult enough back then, to recall all of what happened at the time, it would be near impossible now.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 12:42:45 PM
At last you accept that the recon had nothing to do with finding Maddie and was just to try and prove the parents had lied...
It had everything to do with finding out the truth and a very good tool it is to for doing so. No wonder it is feared by those with something to hide.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 10, 2015, 12:44:18 PM
Email sent to PJ from Graham Michael / Stuart Prior
28 March 2008
As a group, they are waiting to see if Gerry and Kate McCann will be invited to attend and participate in the re-enactment. It is my understanding that if Gerry and Kate do not participate in this process, then the decision will be that they will not attend.
If that is indeed the case perhaps you could answer the question posed by Bernice about Jez's response when asked by the police in a potential reconstruction regarding what time he set off on his walk.
Asking someone a question in an interview room will often provoke a different response to taking them physically back to the scene and have them reenact what occurred. When confronted by another participant it is wonderful how they often remember things which they thought they had forgotten. I believe its called photographic memory recall or something like that.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 12:48:28 PM
If they had been forced to attend, they couldn't have refused, as you so rightly say, John, but although the McCanns agreed to attend, others that were necessary, to carry out the re-con, did refuse and the whole thing was cancelled by PT. What is the point of discussing, what could have been or what should have been, when it wasn't and there is nothing more can be done about it, except to do a re-con now. I should think since it would have been difficult enough back then, to recall all of what happened at the time, it would be near impossible now.
I have answered this already in my responses to other posts but safe to say anyone who lived through that night will have events imprinted in their memory. Do you realise how embarrassing it is to take part in a reconstitution only to be shown to have been mistaken? Had Jez been there when the documentary was being made, when Jane was left in tears by Gerry, I wonder what his reaction would have been to have had both of them establish it was he who was mistaken?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 12:52:59 PM
Asking someone a question in an interview room will often provoke a different response to taking them physically back to the scene and have them reenact what occurred. When confronted by another participant it is wonderful how they often remember things which they thought they had forgotten. I believe its called photographic memory recall or something like that.
So the police would allow the reconstruction to basically be a bunch of people all re-writing the timeline a little bit here a little bit there until it all fitted into place, a process which could take days potentially and that would help find Madeleine's abductor how, exactly? Or would it simply be an exercise to prove that the McCanns and their friends and the other witnesses who gave statements about the evening were all more or less correct in their original statements?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2015, 12:59:30 PM
I have answered this already in my responses to other posts but safe to say anyone who lived through that night will have events imprinted in their memory. Do you realise how embarrassing it is to take part in a reconstitution only to be shown to have been mistaken? Had Jez been there when the documentary was being made, when Jane was left in tears by Gerry, I wonder what his reaction would have been to have had both of them establish it was he who was mistaken?
Excellent point John.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 01:01:30 PM
So the police would allow the reconstruction to basically be a bunch of people all re-writing the timeline a little bit here a little bit there until it all fitted into place, a process which could take days potentially and that would help find Madeleine's abductor how, exactly? Or would it simply be an exercise to prove that the McCanns and their friends and the other witnesses who gave statements about the evening were all more or less correct in their original statements?
As someone already pointed out above, a 'reconstitution' would establish who, if anyone, lied, and that in itself could provoke charges. If it turned up new information about Madeleine's disappearance all the better.
Alfred, can you please use the correct terminology when referring to the reconstitution. A reconstruction using actors is a completely different matter. TY
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on January 10, 2015, 01:02:25 PM
And if they had proved that they weren't the investigation could have been refocused. What is wrong with that ?
How could it have been? The issue at the time was whether to charge one or more of the arguidos or to archive the case - unless Madeleine had suddenly been found or a spontaneous confession / or highly credible new evidence dropped on someone's desk.
The clock was ticking. The due date on the final investigation report had already been exceptionally extended twice (the last one was to process the results of the rogatory interviews).
The law has changed since then to allow more time for ILORs... but that wasn't the case back then.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on January 10, 2015, 01:08:18 PM
Very true. The Portuguese example of using a reconstitution (not actors) instead of a reconstruction (using actors) is something we in the UK could learn from. The confrontation when Robert Murat faced his accusers is also unique to Portugal.
The whole point of a reconstitution is to find the liars and identify those who have for some reason or other been less than forthcoming where the true nature of events are concerned. You only need to look at the accidental confrontation when Jane Tanner was intentionally usurped by Gerry McCann when she attempted to show how he got his recollection wrong as to where he and Jez were situated that fateful night. Question is, what else did he get WRONG?
A full reconstitution would reveal the sequence of events on the night Madeleine disappeared. Who was where, when and why. It wouldn't take long for any fabricated timeline to fall apart in such circumstances.
Every single person who was known to have been there that night should have been forced to take part in the reconstitution, anyone failing to do so should have been charged with the Portuguese equivalent of attempting to pervert the course of justice. Had this been done I bet nobody would have refused to take part!
What did the confrontation with Murat prove?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on January 10, 2015, 01:12:45 PM
As someone already pointed out above, a 'reconstitution' would establish who, if anyone, lied, and that in itself could provoke charges. If it turned up new information about Madeleine's disappearance all the better.
Alfred, can you please use the correct terminology when referring to the reconstitution. A reconstruction using actors is a completely different matter. TY
What is the correct terminology in English? I've heard of reconstituted food as in:
reconstitute /riːˈkɒnstɪˌtjuːt/ verb (transitive) 1. to restore (food, etc) to its former or natural state or a semblance of it, as by the addition of water to a concentrate: reconstituted lemon juice 2. to reconstruct; form again
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 01:15:12 PM
Unfortunately, we don't have a transcript of what was actually said. However, I would think the detectives came away with their own thoughts on who was mistaken or who wasnt.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
What is the correct terminology in English? I've heard of reconstituted food as in:
reconstitute /riːˈkɒnstɪˌtjuːt/ verb (transitive) 1. to restore (food, etc) to its former or natural state or a semblance of it, as by the addition of water to a concentrate: reconstituted lemon juice 2. to reconstruct; form again
The Portuguese know it as a reconstitution and that is what we are concerned with.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2015, 01:22:09 PM
How could it have been? The issue at the time was whether to charge one or more of the arguidos or to archive the case - unless Madeleine had suddenly been found or a spontaneous confession / or highly credible new evidence dropped on someone's desk.
The clock was ticking. The due date on the final investigation report had already been exceptionally extended twice (the last one was to process the results of the rogatory interviews).
The law has changed since then to allow more time for ILORs... but that wasn't the case back then.
There was obviously elements of the McCann and friends story the PJ wanted clarified. What was wrong with that ? Why were the group so loath to help ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2015, 01:26:56 PM
Are you referring to, Jez and the McCanns friends, who could not make it back for the re-con, Faith? The McCanns agreed to attend.
Only after the others had refused. 28 March they will do it if the McCanns agree. 1 May interview below shows they didn't say yes. Answer the question and stop trying to run the investigation. Fat chance %£&)**#
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 01:42:48 PM
As someone already pointed out above, a 'reconstitution' would establish who, if anyone, lied, and that in itself could provoke charges. If it turned up new information about Madeleine's disappearance all the better.
Alfred, can you please use the correct terminology when referring to the reconstitution. A reconstruction using actors is a completely different matter. TY
Perhaps you could remove the word reconstruction from the title of this thread if it is now a proscribed word then.
Done 8((()*/ Edit by editor.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 01:45:34 PM
As someone already pointed out above, a 'reconstitution' would establish who, if anyone, lied, and that in itself could provoke charges. If it turned up new information about Madeleine's disappearance all the better.
Alfred, can you please use the correct terminology when referring to the reconstitution. A reconstruction using actors is a completely different matter. TY
How would a "reconstitution" prove anyone was lying rather than simply mistaken? Perhaps you could give me an example.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 01:51:42 PM
Only after the others had refused. 28 March they will do it if the McCanns agree. 1 May interview below shows they didn't say yes. Answer the question and stop trying to run the investigation. Fat chance %£&)**#
That'll be a no then which sort of answers some of the aforementioned questions by default.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 01:53:08 PM
How would a "reconstitution" prove anyone was lying rather than simply mistaken? Perhaps you could give me an example.
That is how a detective earns his keep, knowing the difference from professional experience.
Personally, I will never understand how the parents of a missing child wouldn't do all they coud and take part in anything which would assist the investigation regardless of their own insecurities. I think this fact alone is the reason why so many people feel they were less than helpful when they should have been.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2015, 02:01:50 PM
Can I take it that videos by HiDeHo are now acceptable?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2015, 02:02:57 PM
That is how a detective earns his keep, knowing the difference from professional experience.
Personally, I will never understand how the parents of a missing child wouldn't do anything and take part in anything which wouldassist tthe investigation regardless of their own insecurities.
is that why amaral was sacked from the investigation
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 02:09:58 PM
Spot on! As the AG reported in his final report, they lost the opportunity to establish their innocence.
What a pity that Amaral did not do the reconstruction at the time of the abduction, when the facts would have been clear in the minds of the witnesses.
The Mccanns wanted it, but Amaral didn't want it THEN for some strange reason
I wonder why he didn't want it then?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 02:12:10 PM
Can I take it that videos by HiDeHo are now acceptable?
Only if they are original unedited footage and don't include speculation. If anyone has specific objections to this video please let them be known and it can be dealt with. I must admit I didn't watch it all the first time but did have a chuckle at the ending when I reviewed it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 02:18:35 PM
What a pity that Amaral did not do the reconstruction at the time of the abduction, when the facts would have been clear in the minds of the witnesses.
The Mccanns wanted it, but Amaral didn't want it THEN for some strange reason
I wonder why he didn't want it then?
Read the op Sadie, his reasons are recorded.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 02:21:48 PM
I have answered this already in my responses to other posts but safe to say anyone who lived through that night will have events imprinted in their memory. Do you realise how embarrassing it is to take part in a reconstitution only to be shown to have been mistaken? Had Jez been there when the documentary was being made, when Jane was left in tears by Gerry, I wonder what his reaction would have been to have had both of them establish it was he who was mistaken?
Rewatch the video John. Jane was upset by Gerry but she wasn't in tears at that time IIRC.
She was in tears later, because she realised that she had seen the abductor carrying Madeleine away and she, in her ignorance, had not raised the alarm .... If only .... if only
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 02:25:53 PM
Rewatch the video John. Jane was upset by Gerry but she wasn't in tears at that time IIRC.
She was in tears later, because she realised that she had seen the abductor carrying Madeleine away and she, in her ignorance, had not raised the alarm .... If only .... if only
Do you think Gerry handled the situation properly or do you agree that his intervention was very abrupt and most dismissive of Jane? Clearly there was a bit of domineering going on in that footage.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 02:26:27 PM
One thing about HiDeHo I'm sure everyone can agree on: she has awful taste in music %£&)**#
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Anna on January 10, 2015, 02:35:18 PM
Benny Hill’s comedy sketch music, I believe, Lyal. Appropriate?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on January 10, 2015, 02:35:43 PM
What is the correct terminology in English? I've heard of reconstituted food as in:
reconstitute /riːˈkɒnstɪˌtjuːt/ verb (transitive) 1. to restore (food, etc) to its former or natural state or a semblance of it, as by the addition of water to a concentrate: reconstituted lemon juice 2. to reconstruct; form again
John tells us that the Portuguese refer to it as a reconstitution. That is hilarious cos it implies changing and the addition of stuff.... an imitation.
Reconstruction means rebuilding as it was.
Personally I NEVER buy reconstituted ham, cos it is different and little like the real mccoy. But I can reconstruct a very nice, honest and true, ham sandwich from little bits of unadulterated ham simply placed together between buttered bread slices.
I wonder if that is what the whole business was about ? To gather stuff and change it to suit Amarals agenda? Maybe that is why Amaral the PJ calls it reconstituted?
Edtited to correct my mistake.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 02:42:35 PM
To reconstitute is to build up again from parts. Quite appropriate really but then when some of the constituent elements refuse to play ball...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2015, 02:46:08 PM
What a pity that Amaral did not do the reconstruction at the time of the abduction, when the facts would have been clear in the minds of the witnesses.
The Mccanns wanted it, but Amaral didn't want it THEN for some strange reason
I wonder why he didn't want it then?
The final decision with regard to the earlier reconstruction lay with Amaral's superiors not Amaral.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 02:48:20 PM
That is how a detective earns his keep, knowing the difference from professional experience.
Personally, I will never understand how the parents of a missing child wouldn't do all they coud and take part in anything which would assist the investigation regardless of their own insecurities. I think this fact alone is the reason why so many people feel they were less than helpful when they should have been.
That's all very well but doesn't address the question. It's all very well saying a detective knows the difference between a lie and a mistake but it would need actual evidence to prove that it was a lie and not a mistake to make any difference to anything. So, how would a "reconstitution" prove any supposed lies told? How could it prove anything at all, how in fact could it prove the McCanns' innocence?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 02:49:50 PM
Perhaps you could remove the word reconstruction from the title of this thread if it is now a proscribed word then.
Done 8((()*/ Edit by editor.
This thread is hilarious. @)(++(*
It is Johns thread and in the title HE called it "reconstruction". He then ticked Alfred off for using the word "recontruction" and said he must use the word "reconstitution"
Reconstitution is obviously a mis-translation, cos if it aint then some dirty hokey pokey was going on .... in other words it was about processing what happened, in an unhealthy way, to presumably abide to Amarals agenda?
Are you totally sure that we should call it a reconstitution John?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2015, 02:50:34 PM
John tells us that the Portuguese refer to it as a reconstitution. That is hilarious cos it implies changing and the addition of stuff.... an imitation.
Reconstruction means rebuilding as it was.
Personally I NEVER buy reconstituted ham, cos it is different and little like the real mccoy. But I can reconstruct a very nice, honest and true, ham sandwich from little bits of unadulterated ham simply placed together between buttered bread slices.
I wonder if that is what the whole business was about ? To gather stuff and change it to suit Amarals agenda? Maybe that is why Amaral calls it reconstituted?
Amaral was not the coordinator at the time of the reconstitution request, Rebelo was.
More myth making sadie ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 02:51:48 PM
That's all very well but doesn't address the question. It's all very well saying a detective knows the difference between a lie and a mistake but it would need actual evidence to prove that it was a lie and not a mistake to make any difference to anything. So, how would a "reconstitution" prove any supposed lies told? How could it prove anything at all, how in fact could it prove the McCanns' innocence?
A reconstitution is about establishing the facts and ironing out misunderstandings.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 02:53:11 PM
That's all very well but doesn't address the question. It's all very well saying a detective knows the difference between a lie and a mistake but it would need actual evidence to prove that it was a lie and not a mistake to make any difference to anything. So, how would a "reconstitution" prove any supposed lies told? How could it prove anything at all, how in fact could it prove the McCanns' innocence?
You're all contradicting yourselves on this issue: one minute you're saying the McCanns were happy to go back to do it, and then you're giving all sorts of reasons why it was a waste of time anyway or it was a trap. You can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 02:53:47 PM
It is Johns thread and in the title HE called it "reconstruction". He then ticked Alfred off for using the word "recontruction" and said he must use the word "reconstitution"
Reconstitution is obviously a mis-translation, cos if it aint then some dirty hokey pokey was going on .... in other words it was about processing what happened, in an unhealthy way, to presumably abide to Amarals agenda?
Are you totally sure that we should call it a reconstitution John?
A simple check of online dictionaries reveals reconstitution as the appropriate definition for a crime scene reenactment.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 03:03:48 PM
Or to demonstrate that they hadn't. Clarification is what they were searching for.
That is exactly what they were looking for! What people fail to realize or understand i, there are two sides to this story. The McCanns and the PJ who had to deal with the initial situation.
The police were suspicious of several things, importantly the parents behavior, and the initial timeline situation. The police had probably,quite rightly, dismissed the fact that the Tapas had a well planned- orginised-timed checking procedure. ( which is what was being implied by K and M in the beginning) They were being asked awkward questions, but so what, they needed to be asked why not just say there and then we just checked every so often. ( this would have not been well received by the public- preserving reputations even at this early stage). That is why to this day we ware told the children were checked every 15/20 mins- depends on who is telling the story ofcourse.
And and as someone else has mentioned, why do the McCanns think they have the right to direct the investigation? and more importantly WHY would they? Hmm even that sparks off suspicion.
The McCanns wanted a crime watch reconstruction to 'help jog memories of an abductor scenario. The police wanted to find out where there was an opportunity for an abductor- hence ask the tapas to do what they did that night to see if there was an opportunity and a stranger abduction from the apartment was a plausable lead to be further investigated.
As John has mentioned- it beggers belief they chose NOT to co operate. Thus causing suspicion and probably bad press.
Snip «Portuguese Journalist: A reconstruction. If you volunteer to do a reconstruction wouldn't that open the case?
Gerry McCann: We want to create information that will lead us to us helping find Madeleine.
Portuguese Journalist: That will help Madeleine. Don't you think so?
Gerry McCann: Well if it does then, you know, we will participate.
Portuguese Journalist: You are in Lisbon. You could take that step today. Ask for the case to be reopened and do a reconstruction with your friends.
Gerry McCann: We are going round in circles. We would be more than happy for the case to be reopened.»
Excerpt from: Exclusive Video: McCanns Press Conference, February 12, 2010
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 03:05:30 PM
The final decision with regard to the earlier reconstruction lay with Amaral's superiors not Amaral.
Btw, Faith
You are going against Johns new rule
Reconstitued NOT reconstructed 8(0(*
I like reconstuted better than reconstructed, because that is what I think it was all about To attempt to get the bits together then shift them around and add bits in .... and Voila, it is PROVEN beyond doubt that The Mccanns Dunnit RECONSTITUED, like bad ham.
Cunning ploy if I am right.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 03:06:05 PM
You're all contradicting yourselves on this issue: one minute you're saying the McCanns were happy to go back to do it, and then you're giving all sorts of reasons why it was a waste of time anyway or it was a trap. You can't have it both ways.
As far as I was aware there is only one of me and I am speaking for myself, not the McCanns or anyone else. The McCanns may very well have been happy to go back and do the "reconstitution" but it certainly would not have uncovered any lies or proven their innocence. See, I can have it both ways!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 03:11:29 PM
I like reconstuted better than reconstructed, because that is what I think it was all about To attempt to get the bits together then shift them around and add bits in .... and Voila, it is PROVEN beyond doubt that The Mccanns Dunnit RECONSTITUED, like bad ham.
Cunning ploy if I am right.
Then it must have been Rebelo's cunning plan. Is that what you are claiming sadie ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 03:11:58 PM
As far as I was aware there is only one of me and I am speaking for myself, not the McCanns or anyone else. The McCanns may very well have been happy to go back and do the "reconstitution" but it certainly would not have uncovered any lies or proven their innocence. See, I can have it both ways!
Think of 'prove their innocence' more as demonstrate it. It was an opportunity.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: DCI on January 10, 2015, 03:12:28 PM
TV helicopters and disagreement over the importance of JT's sighting.
Nothing to do with JT sighting Lyall.
Amaral in his book says
The reconstruction was never to take place. The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple. There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation. For all that, a more discreet reconstruction, even partial, with only the couple present, might provide useful information. No a priori judgment is implied, quite the contrary. It's quite simply the co-operation that we have the right to expect on the part of parents faced with such a situation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 03:13:36 PM
By getting those involved to reenact events together, discrepancies are revealed.
Discrepancies are already revealed in the statements, where one says it was 9.10pm, another 9.15pm - so how is a "reconstitution" going to reveal any more discrepancies?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 03:15:01 PM
A simple check of online dictionaries reveals reconstitution as the appropriate definition for a crime scene reenactment.
Well John , they may call it reconstituted .... and maybe that is what it is.
Getting bits together, shifting them around and then adding bits in. In other words, after this process, likely to be a falsehood to 'prove' their agenda
I think they would be wiser to call it a reconstruction, which implies purity as against processed and altered.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 03:16:30 PM
The reconstruction was never to take place. The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple. There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation. For all that, a more discreet reconstruction, even partial, with only the couple present, might provide useful information. No a priori judgment is implied, quite the contrary. It's quite simply the co-operation that we have the right to expect on the part of parents faced with such a situation.
But even then there was the suggestion if something was done it should be a UK Crimewatch-like event, with JT at the centre. They did of course do UK Crimwatch just a few weeks later.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 03:16:42 PM
Think of 'prove their innocence' more as demonstrate it. It was an opportunity.
No, all they could have demonstrated is that the may have been telling the truth, that's all. But in fact - how would it, as who would ultimately decide whose memory of each event was correct and whose was not?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 10, 2015, 03:18:04 PM
No, all they could have demonstrated is that the may have been telling the truth, that's all. But in fact - how would it, as who would ultimately decide whose memory of each event was correct and whose was not?
It was an opportunity to demonstrate a) their cooperation b) that nothing was more important to them than doing everything to help find what happened to Madeleine c) they weren't worried about any lingering doubts or questions.
It would not have been the police running it, but the judiciary. So when they declined to do it, you can't blame the judiciary for putting on the record it was an opportunity missed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 03:22:07 PM
I like reconstuted better than reconstructed, because that is what I think it was all about To attempt to get the bits together then shift them around and add bits in .... and Voila, it is PROVEN beyond doubt that The Mccanns Dunnit RECONSTITUED, like bad ham.
Cunning ploy if I am right.
I didn't start the thread btw, I merely added an op and intro to posts which were taken originally from another thread.
My comment to Alfred was not intended as criticism and I apologise if that is how it came across. The point however must be observed and that is that the Portuguese were not requesting a reconstruction with actors or police officers playing the respective parts. What they wanted was a full reenactment with the original participants taking part and doing exactly what they did on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 03:23:54 PM
No, all they could have demonstrated is that the may have been telling the truth, that's all. But in fact - how would it, as who would ultimately decide whose memory of each event was correct and whose was not?
May have been telling the truth?. Indeed 'May have been'. May not have been and that is what the police were seeking to establish!
Gerry has already established that JT was not passing him and Jez by on that night (oops little 'maybe not telling the truth' by a some one)... He calls the shots apparently. His missing daughter -his investigation. That is the impression he gives.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 03:25:11 PM
No, all they could have demonstrated is that the may have been telling the truth, that's all. But in fact - how would it, as who would ultimately decide whose memory of each event was correct and whose was not?
The same way we know where Gerry and Jez were when Jane slid by. 8(0(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 10, 2015, 03:25:29 PM
The reconstruction was never to take place. The reasons put forward to justify that decision - in spite of opinions to the contrary - are multiple. There are lots of holiday-makers at this time and sealing off the perimeter would ruin their stay; the airspace would have to be closed; the hotel complex would be overrun with hordes of journalists; people might think that the parents and their friends were suspects and, of course, the field mustn't be left open for that kind of deliberation. For all that, a more discreet reconstruction, even partial, with only the couple present, might provide useful information. No a priori judgment is implied, quite the contrary. It's quite simply the co-operation that we have the right to expect on the part of parents faced with such a situation.
Thank you DCI. I think that paragraph makes it abundantly clear that it wasn't Amaral's decision to cancel the early reconstruction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 03:28:28 PM
It was an opportunity to demonstrate a) their cooperation b) that nothing was more important to them than doing everything to help find what happened to Madeleine c) they weren't worried about any lingering doubts or questions.
It would not have been the police running it, but the judiciary. So when they declined to do it, you can't blame the judiciary for putting on the record it was an opportunity missed.
Excellent post.
This also put doubts in peoples minds as to why they didn't co operate- what were they hiding.
I am not suggesting they are/were hiding anything- I wasn't there, so I don't know- I am just saying how it looks.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: DCI on January 10, 2015, 03:29:53 PM
I didn't start the thread btw, I merely added an op and intro to posts which were taken originally from another thread.
My comment to Alfred was not intended as criticism and I apologise if that is how it came across. The point however must be observed and that is that the Portuguese were not requesting a reconstruction with actors or police officers playing the respective parts. What they wanted was a full reenactment with the original participants taking part and doing exactly what they did on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
Who gave the thread its title John?
Anyway we all had a good laugh about it and we can put it behind us.
I like the term re-enactment best. That is a good term IMO
.... but I suspect that a reconstitution with bits changed and added was what the PJ wanted.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 04:03:44 PM
The same way we know where Gerry and Jez were when Jane slid by. 8(0(*
OK, let's use that example. You are telling me that in the event of a "reconstitution" in which Jane walks past Jez and Gerry as they chat in the semi-darkness (because of course we would also have to ensure light conditions were exactly as they were on May 3rd 2007, changing back the light fittings to their previous incarnation), that the Judiciary would watch this and then decide who, if anyone, was lying or mistaken? Is that how it would work? Wouldn't we need to get the real Tannerman to take part in this "reconstitution" now, in order to make it even more accurate? What if the "reconstitution" had happened before the Met found and eliminated him from their enquiries - what may the Judiciary have concluded instead?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 04:21:41 PM
I didn't start the thread btw, I merely added an op and intro to posts which were taken originally from another thread.
My comment to Alfred was not intended as criticism and I apologise if that is how it came across. The point however must be observed and that is that the Portuguese were not requesting a reconstruction with actors or police officers playing the respective parts. What they wanted was a full reenactment with the original participants taking part and doing exactly what they did on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
[/b]
But 10 people would need to remember the EXACT times they did different things to be able to do that -and that is the one thing they DIDN'T know! They could only give approximate times.
How would it have been perceived by the PJ if say - JT for instance - wrongly calculated the time she left the table after Gerry - by a couple of minutes at the recon. - and so ended up passing him a few yards from the table - instead of halfway up the street outside?
Can someone please tell me - What would happen then? Because IMO all that would prove is that she had guessed the wrong amount of time which had elapsed between Gerry leaving the table - and when she herself left it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 04:38:22 PM
But 10 people would need to remember the EXACT times they did different things to be able to do that -and that is the one thing they DIDN'T know! They could only give approximate times.
How would it have been perceived by the PJ if say - JT for instance - wrongly calculated the time she left the table after Gerry - by a couple of minutes at the recon. - and so ended up passing him a few yards from the table - instead of halfway up the street outside?
Can someone please tell me - What would happen then? Because IMO all that would prove is that she had guessed the wrong amount of time which had elapsed between Gerry leaving the table - and when she herself left it.
It would have been noted, regardless of the time, that JT said she passed Gerry and Jez- Gerry claimed she did not!.....He was quite adamant!
They all wrote down their timeline as Kate says 'it is all written down'...so why not act on what was written?
well, we know why don't we.
Re Tannerman: so when he came forward was he asked :at what time did you cross the street from the creche?. Did you notice anyone else in the area? That would have to have been asked of him surely.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2015, 04:48:24 PM
Maybe the PJ wanted to check it out against the two time lines devised by the Tapas Group, one of which gives exact times, and the only independent timing which is Jez saying he met Gerry between 20:45 and 21:15. It might have thrown up all sorts of things but the reconstitution did not take place, period. I find it hard to believe that The Met will not have carried out at least a desk top study based on the two time lines, the results of which have not been divulged save for DCI Redwood saying there was "a window of opportunity when an abduction could have taken place". Not you will note "did take place".
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2015, 05:22:01 PM
As far as I was aware there is only one of me and I am speaking for myself, not the McCanns or anyone else. The McCanns may very well have been happy to go back and do the "reconstitution" but it certainly would not have uncovered any lies or proven their innocence. See, I can have it both ways!
Personally speaking for myself and as far as I am concerned ... I, me and myself are too tied up in a knot of hysterical laughter about what is being said to be bothered about contradicting anyone.
I would possibly be concerned if a reconstitution or whatever was pivotal to the present investigation ... but it is not ... and trying to wind the clock back to what should have been done is pointless.
I think that Paulo Rebelo had to do what the PJ and SY investigation had to do as well and that is to go back to the beginning of a thoroughly botched investigation and attempt to do what should have been done by the original co-ordinator ... and that was to hold a reconstitution.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 05:25:37 PM
It would have been noted, regardless of the time, that JT said she passed Gerry and Jez- Gerry claimed she did not!.....He was quite adamant!
They all wrote down their timeline as Kate says 'it is all written down'...so why not act on what was written?
well, we know why don't we.
Re Tannerman: so when he came forward was he asked :at what time did you cross the street from the creche?. Did you notice anyone else in the area? That would have to have been asked of him surely.
You seem to have completely missed the point. Maybe I didn't explain it very well. Let me reiterate:
JT said she left the table around 5 or 10 mins after Gerry.
So - during a recon. what time would she choose to leave the table after him? 5mins? 6 mins? 7 mins? 8 mins? 9mins? or 10 mins? Remember - she only had to be a couple of minutes out either way - to either be up the top of the street BEFORE Gerry had come out of 5A - if she went too soon - or to be still sitting at the table when he returned - if she had wrongly guessed the time which had elapsed before she left after Gerry.
The same problem exists with Jez, he didn't know the exact time he set out for his walk. He could only have a guess at it. But if he guessed at the wrong time then Gerry could have still be in 5A when Jez arrived. What would he do then? Carry on walking or hang about until Gerry emerged? But then that would not be a true re-enactment of what he did a year prior would it?
What I would like to know is how the PJ deal would deal with this serious problem of 10 people only knowing approximate times - thus making it impossible for an accurate recon. to take place.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 05:44:03 PM
Personally speaking for myself and as far as I am concerned ... I, me and myself are too tied up in a knot of hysterical laughter about what is being said to be bothered about contradicting anyone.
I would possibly be concerned if a reconstitution or whatever was pivotal to the present investigation ... but it is not ... and trying to wind the clock back to what should have been done is pointless.
I think that Paulo Rebelo had to do what the PJ and SY investigation had to do as well and that is to go back to the beginning of a thoroughly botched investigation and attempt to do what should have been done by the original co-ordinator ... and that was to hold a reconstitution.
In which case why not go back and do it? &%+((£
You are trying to have it both ways.
Mitchell signaled the reluctance in 2008 by saying it was felt a Crimewatch-like appeal around JT would be better, but in 2008 the Portuguese knew just as much as they did in May 2007 that JT's description was poor in and not only that but the exact time of that sighting wasn't known in any case. That may have been one objective of trying to get everyone to return.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 05:46:53 PM
You seem to have completely missed the point. Maybe I didn't explain it very well. Let me reiterate:
JT said she left the table around 5 or 10 mins after Gerry.
So - during a recon. what time would she choose to leave the table after him? 5mins? 6 mins? 7 mins? 8 mins? 9mins? or 10 mins? Remember - she only had to be a couple of minutes out either way - to either be up the top of the street BEFORE Gerry had come out of 5A - if she went too soon - or to be still sitting at the table when he returned - if she had wrongly guessed the time which had elapsed before she left after Gerry.
The same problem exists with Jez, he didn't know the exact time he set out for his walk. He could only have a guess at it. But if he guessed at the wrong time then Gerry could have still be in 5A when Jez arrived. What would he do then? Carry on walking or hang about until Gerry emerged? But then that would not be a true re-enactment of what he did a year prior would it?
What I would like to know is how the PJ deal would deal with this serious problem of 10 people only knowing approximate times - thus making it impossible for an accurate recon. to take place.
I wonder how many different permutations of events that night there could actually be based on the vagueness of everyone's timelines, and not just the Tapas 9 - what about the Tapas staff member who said the alarm was raised by Kate between 9.30pm and 10pm? There must be thousands if not millions of possible "reconstitutions" that would need to be done to ensure every possible option had been covered.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 05:48:18 PM
The decision not to return was made by people who sought certain assurances from the Portuguese authorities; when these were not forthcoming they made the decision not to return to Portuguese Jurisdiction.
You appear to dismiss my suggestion that Paulo Rebelo was involved in playing 'catch up' on diligences which should already have been carried out ... are you therefore suggesting the proposal of a reconstitution actually was an entrapment ... as it is possible the people who would not return believed it to be? Bearing in mind that Jez Wilkins was a refusenik.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2015, 06:00:36 PM
The decision not to return was made by people who sought certain assurances from the Portuguese authorities; when these were not forthcoming they made the decision not to return to Portuguese Jurisdiction.
You appear to dismiss my suggestion that Paulo Rebelo was involved in playing 'catch up' on diligences which should already have been carried out ... are you therefore suggesting the proposal of a reconstitution actually was an entrapment ... as it is possible the people who would not return believed it to be? Bearing in mind that Jez Wilkins was a refusenik.
No I think it was part of the the shelving of the case and probably they were being fair and trying to avoid having to leave so much doubt in the final conclusions reached.
I think long before April they'd already decided nothing was going to be achieved.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 06:09:14 PM
Scenario: you have been asked to take part in a "reconstitution" of a traumatic event that happened to you and your friends a year ago, ie: the mysterious disappearance of your friends' child. You are led to believe that one of the key reasons for this "reconstitution" is to "demonstrate your friends' innocence" to the authorities, however you do not see how such a "reconstitution" would demonstrate anything apart from the inconsistencies between your various statements, inconsistencies which are perfectly normal as everyone will have slightly different memories of the event, but which you suspect may be used by the police as evidence of wrong-doing by you and your friends. This being the case - why take part, when you also know that taking part in a "reconstitution" of this nature will do nothing whatsoever to shed any light on the disappearance of the missing person and will certainly not prove or even demonstrate anyone's innocence?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 06:13:18 PM
Scenario: you have been asked to take part in a "reconstitution" of a traumatic event that happened to you and your friends a year ago, ie: the mysterious disappearance of your friends' child. You are led to believe that the only reason for this "reconstitution" is to "demonstrate your friends' innocence" to the authorities, however you do not see how such a "reconstitution" would demonstrate anything apart from the inconsistencies between your various statements, inconsistencies which are perfectly normal as everyone will have slightly different memories of the event, but which you suspect may be used by the police as evidence of wrong-doing by you and your friends. This being the case - why take part, when you also know that taking part in a "reconstitution" of this nature will do nothing whatsoever to shed any light on the disappearance of the missing person and will certainly not prove or even demonstrate anyone's innocence?
This is why you are trying to have it both ways. I'm sure the McCanns did indeed think something like the above and that's why they didn't go, but you also at other times say they did themselves want to go but couldn't because their friends said no.
Which is it? &%+((£
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
Mitchell signaled the reluctance in 2008 by saying it was felt a Crimewatch-like appeal around JT would be better, but in 2008 the Portuguese knew just as much as they did in May 2007 that JT's description was poor in and not only that but the exact time of that sighting wasn't known in any case. That may have been one objective of trying to get everyone to return.
JT's description was spot on as confirmed by the Met.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 06:15:41 PM
This is why you are trying to have it both ways. I'm sure the McCanns did indeed think something like the above and that's why they didn't go, but you also at other times say they did themselves want to go but couldn't because their friends said no.
Which is it? &%+((£
You didn't read my post properly did you? Read it again.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 06:17:11 PM
How could she give a description of a face that she never even saw properly? A question we could ask of the Smiths while we're at it.... &%+((£ In all other respects her description was spot on.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 10, 2015, 06:18:26 PM
liars have to remember all their lies.
“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.” ― Mark Twain
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 06:19:10 PM
I agree It's very easy to see the McCann's are telling the truth
About what the time line? So you are saying JT is a liar? and that she didn't see the 'abductor' as she passed by Gerry and Jez...Which honest Gerry denies happened?
Anyway, to clarify. The timeline was not going to be a synchronized watch- nano second by nano second scrutiny.
There had to be a start time- middle bit- and Kate's end bit!
Start time....when they met for dinner-were served Middle bit... JT seeing the abductor WHILST JW and GM were in the same vicinity at the same time(chance for collaboration) oops look a discrepancy already! End bit... Kate raises the alarm.
This does not include windows open -shut-which doors were locked -unlocked. whooshing curtains and all that.
There were three very valid reasons for it being done. 1. There was suspicion about the events surrounding Maddies disappearance 2. Alice already mentioned - there were two time lines! why? 3. They wanted to establish if there was an opportunity for an abductor to enter and leave the apartment with a young child.
This is called an investigation.You know the one which the McCanns denied was going on...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: DCI on January 10, 2015, 07:00:24 PM
I read it. So you're saying again they did want to go but their friends didn't?
Seems that way, according to Rebelo.
Table of Contents : Processo Vol 16..(PDF page 223)...Page 4354-"Email from Rebelo to Prior re: Prosecutor Decision"
Vol 16 Page 4354 (Page 1 of 1)
Paulo Fernando Gaspar Rebelo
From : Paulo Fernando Gaspar Rebelo. Date : 27th May 2008 10.25 a.m. To : "Prior Stuart" Subject : Re-enactment cancelation
(( Inserted here is an attachment labelled : Anulacao da reconstituticao.doc....))
Dear Stuart :
As agreed, here I send the Prosecutor's decision regarding the re-enactment cancelation. In a few words, it says that due the absence of the witnesses Matthew Oldfield, Rachael Mampilly, Russell O'Brien and Jane Tanner, there are no conditions to perform the diligence. I kindly request you to urgently transmit this decision to each one of the witnesses (Matthew, Rachael, Russell, Jane, Dianne, David, Fiona and Jeremy).
Thank you, again, for your cooperation. Best regards Paulo Rebelo CSIC
Public Ministry of PortimaoCase SectionCase 201/07 GALGSDear SirPublic prosecutorKate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.Rogerio AlvesLawyer(Sent by email)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 07:02:29 PM
I read it. So you're saying again they did want to go but their friends didn't?
They (the McCanns) said they were prepared to go, I've no reason to think otherwise - their friends however were clearly not keen, and my scenario was describing it from their point of view. Now maybe you can answer the question I posed at the end of it...?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 07:04:48 PM
It's easy to spot liars and that's where the truth lies.
The PJ had ample opportunity to "spot liars" when they questioned the McCanns and their friends - a "reconstitution" would not have made it any easier to spot liars, unless you can explain to me how it would have?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 07:26:09 PM
About what the time line? So you are saying JT is a liar? and that she didn't see the 'abductor' as she passed by Gerry and Jez...Which honest Gerry denies happened?
Anyway, to clarify. The timeline was not going to be a synchronized watch- nano second by nano second scrutiny.
There had to be a start time- middle bit- and Kate's end bit!
Start time....when they met for dinner-were served Middle bit... JT seeing the abductor WHILST JW and GM were in the same vicinity at the same time(chance for collaboration) oops look a discrepancy already! End bit... Kate raises the alarm.
This does not include windows open -shut-which doors were locked -unlocked. whooshing curtains and all that.
There were three very valid reasons for it being done. 1. There was suspicion about the events surrounding Maddies disappearance 2. Alice already mentioned - there were two time lines! why? 3. They wanted to establish if there was an opportunity for an abductor to enter and leave the apartment with a young child.
This is called an investigation.You know the one which the McCanns denied was going on...
IIRC the start time of the recon was to be 5.30pm - until 11.00p.m.
According to DCI Redwood - SY's Forensic Analysis of the timelines has established that there was clear opportunity for Madeleine to have been taken from the apartment.
Since establishing that fact - the timeline was extended as a result of the identification of the man seen by JT.
To clarify: - Gerry has never questioned JT's sighting or even implied that she was lying.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2015, 07:31:33 PM
About what the time line? So you are saying JT is a liar? and that she didn't see the 'abductor' as she passed by Gerry and Jez...Which honest Gerry denies happened?
Anyway, to clarify. The timeline was not going to be a synchronized watch- nano second by nano second scrutiny.
There had to be a start time- middle bit- and Kate's end bit!
Start time....when they met for dinner-were served Middle bit... JT seeing the abductor WHILST JW and GM were in the same vicinity at the same time(chance for collaboration) oops look a discrepancy already! End bit... Kate raises the alarm.
This does not include windows open -shut-which doors were locked -unlocked. whooshing curtains and all that.
There were three very valid reasons for it being done. 1. There was suspicion about the events surrounding Maddies disappearance 2. Alice already mentioned - there were two time lines! why? 3. They wanted to establish if there was an opportunity for an abductor to enter and leave the apartment with a young child.
This is called an investigation.You know the one which the McCanns denied was going on...
It's the middle bit that is interesting. For example Jane Tanner left the table at 21:20 to 21:25 depending on which timeline you wish to believe. So she was passing Jez and Gerry at say 21:21 to 21:26 by which time according to Jez he was long gone. Not saying anything like other than it is an anomaly which the fuzz might like to resolve and possibly a reconstitution might help to effect same.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 07:32:51 PM
They (the McCanns) said they were prepared to go, I've no reason to think otherwise - their friends however were clearly not keen, and my scenario was describing it from their point of view. Now maybe you can answer the question I posed at the end of it...?
You're not actually doing them any favour with your spin. At the same time they were failing to cooperate with the Portuguese, because - your argument seems to go - even the T7 knew better than police, they were also blowing an incredible amount of money on very useless detectives. It looks far from good.
Just be honest and say none of them wanted to return to Portugal while they still had arguido status.
People can disagree on why they didn't but it does you no good to deny it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 07:43:48 PM
You're not actually doing them any favour with your spin. At the same time they were failing to cooperate with the Portuguese, because - your argument seems to go - even the T7 knew better than police, they were also blowing an incredible amount of money on very useless detectives. It looks far from good.
Just be honest and say none of them wanted to return to Portugal while they still had arguido status.
People can disagree on why they didn't but it does you no good to deny it.
My spin? I said that the McCanns said they were prepared to go - which is a fact. I also said I have no reason to disbelieve them - which is also a fact. So I suggest you do yourself a favour and learn to read and understand my posts before insulting me or my integrity again. I certainly will not speak for the McCanns or their friends or Jez Wilkins, which is what it seems you are insisting I do. Why?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 07:57:03 PM
But 10 people would need to remember the EXACT times they did different things to be able to do that -and that is the one thing they DIDN'T know! They could only give approximate times.
How would it have been perceived by the PJ if say - JT for instance - wrongly calculated the time she left the table after Gerry - by a couple of minutes at the recon. - and so ended up passing him a few yards from the table - instead of halfway up the street outside?
Can someone please tell me - What would happen then? Because IMO all that would prove is that she had guessed the wrong amount of time which had elapsed between Gerry leaving the table - and when she herself left it.
When you put a dozen witnesses in a room and ask them to replicate what occurred on a previous occasion you will usually get a result of sorts. Unfortunately, since most of the tapas 9 were drinking that evening I fear the results may not be as focussed as one would like. However, that said, the detectives would be looking for any signs of inconsistency and divergences from the original statements and if found I have no doubt some explaining would be required.
Remember also that there are two potential sites within Luz where sightings have been claimed. The PJ would possibly run both reenactments together to establish exactly where everyone was that we know about. That in itself could very well have put to bed the oft mentioned contention that it was Gerry who was seen down town by the Smiths.
Which brings me to the issue of why wasn't Gerry asked to take part in a reenactment for the benefit of the Smiths. That again would hopefully have shown once and for all that Martin Smith's original identification was mistaken.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 08:04:31 PM
IIRC the start time of the recon was to be 5.30pm - until 11.00p.m.
According to DCI Redwood - SY's Forensic Analysis of the timelines has established that there was clear opportunity for Madeleine to have been taken from the apartment.
Since establishing that fact - the timeline was extended as a result of the identification of the man seen by JT.
To clarify: - Gerry has never questioned JT's sighting or even implied that she was lying.
I have no idea why you are replying to my post abut why there was no reconstitution back in the day. That is the thread headline!
It makes no sense to quote what SY have done - this is hindsight it adds nothing to the then investigation which is what we are discussing.
*But if you insist it should also be mentioned that SY could also have implied there was clear opportunity for other theories to be followed!* They have also mentioned and highlighted the importance of 'Smithman'.
Anyway, back to thread...To clarify your clarification: JT Claimed she passed by JW and GM and that is when she saw what we now know was NOT the 'abductor' . GM said JT did not pass them....so, in your opinion he is not calling her a liar? Shall we just skip over the bits you don't feel comfortable about or reinvent another timeline to absolve everyone from having anything to do with anything.
Yes Alice, the 'middle' bits are very interesting indeed. The devil is in the detail. Back in the day the police could not make any sense of what was going on- or make any sense of their account of what happened. much the same today- no one seems to be able to solve this mystery with the accounts given by the K&G M and Tapas. It just doesn't add up!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 08:04:52 PM
My spin? I said that the McCanns said they were prepared to go - which is a fact. I also said I have no reason to disbelieve them - which is also a fact. So I suggest you do yourself a favour and learn to read and understand my posts before insulting me or my integrity again. I certainly will not speak for the McCanns or their friends or Jez Wilkins, which is what it seems you are insisting I do. Why?
It's easy to say in late May yes we'll go when they knew it wasn't going to happen anyway.
Mitchell began objecting in early April. The rogatory interviews were in early April. The TV interviews with the McCanns - in which they too raise objections - were in early May. By the end of May everyone knew it wasn't happening anyway.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 10, 2015, 08:08:03 PM
When you put a dozen witnesses in a room and ask them to replicate what occurred on a previous occasion you will usually get a result of sorts. Unfortunately, since most of the tapas 9 were drinking that evening I fear the results may not be as focussed as one would like. However, that said, the detectives would be looking for any signs of inconsistency and divergences from the original statements and if found I have no doubt some explaining would be required.
If by some chance there was a 'reconstitution', it would be clearly devalued as the chief participants have no doubt colluded, since then.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 10, 2015, 08:11:27 PM
I have no idea why you are replying to my post abut why there was no reconstitution back in the day. That is the thread headline!
It makes no sense to quote what SY have done - this is hindsight it adds nothing to the then investigation which is what we are discussing.
*But if you insist it should also be mentioned that SY could also have implied there was clear opportunity for other theories to be followed!* They have also mentioned and highlighted the importance of 'Smithman'.
Anyway, back to thread...To clarify your clarification: JT Claimed she passed by JW and GM and that is when she saw what we now know was NOT the 'abductor' . GM said JT did not pass them....so, in your opinion he is not calling her a liar? Shall we just skip over the bits you don't feel comfortable about or reinvent another timeline to absolve everyone from having anything to do with anything.
Yes Alice, the 'middle' bits are very interesting indeed. The devil is in the detail. Back in the day the police could not make any sense of what was going on- or make any sense of their account of what happened. much the same today- no one seems to be able to solve this mystery with the accounts given by the K&G M and Tapas. It just doesn't add up!
No he didn't. He said he didn't see her. That is not the same as saying she didn't pass by - by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm not insisting on anything - just posting my opinion. If you don't like it - I have others.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 08:21:07 PM
If by some chance there was a 'reconstitution', it would be clearly devalued as the chief participants have no doubt colluded, since then.
Good Point Stephen, but they would then have to explain any changes to the previous two 'written' timelines.
Their non cooperation is a sure let down to their daughter. It is a very sad situation. The Tapas silence is eeerie to say the least- that also makes me feel uneasy about this whole business.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 08:30:32 PM
When you put a dozen witnesses in a room and ask them to replicate what occurred on a previous occasion you will usually get a result of sorts. Unfortunately, since most of the tapas 9 were drinking that evening I fear the results may not be as focussed as one would like. However, that said, the detectives would be looking for any signs of inconsistency and divergences from the original statements and if found I have no doubt some explaining would be required.
Remember also that there are two potential sites within Luz where sightings have been claimed. The PJ would possibly run both reenactments together to establish exactly where everyone was that we know about. That in itself could very well have put to bed the oft mentioned contention that it was Gerry who was seen down town by the Smiths.
Which brings me to the issue of why wasn't Gerry asked to take part in a reenactment for the benefit of the Smiths. That again would hopefully have shown once and for all that Martin Smith's original identification was mistaken.
Tests carried out on people on occasions such as you mention resulted in a massive diversity of memories - when those people were asked to recall what had happened.
It has been proved that memories are notoriously fallible and different people have differing levels of the power of recall and also different 'ideas' of time and distance. As the passage of time gets longer before being asked to recall an event - the accuracy of those memories being recalled becomes even more unreliable
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 08:32:24 PM
No he didn't. He said he didn't see her. That is not the same as saying she didn't pass by - by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm not insisting on anything - just posting my opinion. If you don't like it - I have others.
...And it really does stretch the imagination for some! three people on the same small pavement? he didn't see her..Oh ok.
I have no opinion of your posts at all- why would I care what your opinion is? I am indifferent to how many posts you make or the content.
I was pointing out that you interjected a statement which was not in keeping with the discussion at the period of time. You could have said 'with hindsight.....
The tricks and spin are not as subtle as some would like. lol
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 08:39:37 PM
Tests carried out on people on occasions such as you mention resulted in a massive diversity of memories - when those people were asked to recall what had happened.
It has been proved that memories are notoriously fallible and different people have differing levels of the power of recall and also different 'ideas' of time and distance. As the passage of time gets longer before being asked to recall an event - the accuracy of those memories being recalled becomes even more unreliable
Everyone in my office remembers their "five times table"- we all learned at different times and places, but the five times table never changed at all! Funny how we all remembered that...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 08:40:04 PM
...And it really does stretch the imagination for some! three people on the same small pavement? he didn't see her..Oh ok.
I have no opinion of your posts at all- why would I care what your opinion is? I am indifferent to how many posts you make or the content.
I was pointing out that you interjected a statement which was not in keeping with the discussion at the period of time. You could have said 'with hindsight.....
The tricks and spin are not as subtle as some would like. lol
I agree. Claiming that Gerry said JT did not pass him by is not at all subtle - it's a downright lie.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2015, 09:03:58 PM
When you put a dozen witnesses in a room and ask them to replicate what occurred on a previous occasion you will usually get a result of sorts. Unfortunately, since most of the tapas 9 were drinking that evening I fear the results may not be as focussed as one would like. However, that said, the detectives would be looking for any signs of inconsistency and divergences from the original statements and if found I have no doubt some explaining would be required.
Remember also that there are two potential sites within Luz where sightings have been claimed. The PJ would possibly run both reenactments together to establish exactly where everyone was that we know about. That in itself could very well have put to bed the oft mentioned contention that it was Gerry who was seen down town by the Smiths.
Which brings me to the issue of why wasn't Gerry asked to take part in a reenactment for the benefit of the Smiths. That again would hopefully have shown once and for all that Martin Smith's original identification was mistaken.
The contention that Madeleine's father was the man who was the carrier in the alleged Smith sighting is one which will never be put to bed by the people who choose to believe it no matter what the result of contemporaneous re-enactments. The people who actually matter ... the PJ and SY ... obviously put it to bed long ago.
We already know that Martin Smith's identification was mistaken ... just as the almost identical statement made by Mr McCluskey which pre-dated it was mistaken.
On the other hand, if the Smith party of nine had revisited their route and venues of the evening ... an independent witness might have remembered seeing them ... or even remember serving them drinks.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 09:05:09 PM
When you put a dozen witnesses in a room and ask them to replicate what occurred on a previous occasion you will usually get a result of sorts. Unfortunately, since most of the tapas 9 were drinking that evening I fear the results may not be as focussed as one would like. However, that said, the detectives would be looking for any signs of inconsistency and divergences from the original statements and if found I have no doubt some explaining would be required.
Remember also that there are two potential sites within Luz where sightings have been claimed. The PJ would possibly run both reenactments together to establish exactly where everyone was that we know about. That in itself could very well have put to bed the oft mentioned contention that it was Gerry who was seen down town by the Smiths.
Which brings me to the issue of why wasn't Gerry asked to take part in a reenactment for the benefit of the Smiths. That again would hopefully have shown once and for all that Martin Smith's original identification was mistaken.
Re: the part in bold above. The explanation given would probably be along the lines of: "this brilliant idea of a "reconstitution" has made us recall things that hitherto we had forgotten or misremembered (which, after all is the main purpose of a reconstitution, isn't it?) and that is why there are a few divergences and inconsistencies from our statements " - and this explanation would have been perfectly plausible, would it not? So, once again I ask you - how would any wrong-doing be established, or innocence demonstrated by a "reconstitution"?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 09:05:46 PM
Really?
Maybe he didn't see her because she wasn't there?- it is a VERY SMALL PAVEMENT. and JW had a pushchair on it as well.
It couldn't have been that dark because JT saw a man carrying a child up at the top of the road( and they ALL believed her)...so how could GM not see her passing him by on the same side of the VERY SMALL PAVEMENT. No wonder they didn't want to do a re enactment!!
So let's spin this.
Gerry did not see her...because she was not there! but he is not saying she was not there, he is saying he did not see her there... Hmmm
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2015, 09:21:07 PM
Maybe he didn't see her because she wasn't there?- it is a VERY SMALL PAVEMENT. and JW had a pushchair on it as well.
It couldn't have been that dark because JT saw a man carrying a child up at the top of the road( and they ALL believed her)...so how could GM not see her passing him by on the same side of the VERY SMALL PAVEMENT. No wonder they didn't want to do a re enactment!!
So let's spin this.
Gerry did not see her...because she was not there! but he is not saying she was not there, he is saying he did not see her there... Hmmm
All this was of significance and could be panned out, sort of if you stretch your credulity, until Andy Redwood fragged Tannerman. Now we might as well use Jez's time scale as he is the only independent witness to where Gerry was and at what time: like between quarter to nine til half past nine. Is there any other independent witness who can give us a better handle on what time Jez and Gerry were in the road? Was there any one else on the road who the PJ interviewed?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2015, 09:27:21 PM
Gerry and Jeremy Wilkins couldn't even agree on what side of the road they were on, so why should Jane Tanner take all the flack. And how would The PJ have dealt with that if they had needed to?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 09:34:11 PM
Re: the part in bold above. The explanation given would probably be along the lines of: "this brilliant idea of a "reconstitution" has made us recall things that hitherto we had forgotten or misremembered (which, after all is the main purpose of a reconstitution, isn't it?) and that is why there are a few divergences and inconsistencies from our statements " - and this explanation would have been perfectly plausible, would it not? So, once again I ask you - how would any wrong-doing be established, or innocence demonstrated by a "reconstitution"?
Just showing up would have demonstrated something.
As did not showing up.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 09:35:00 PM
Maybe he didn't see her because she wasn't there?- it is a VERY SMALL PAVEMENT. and JW had a pushchair on it as well.
It couldn't have been that dark because JT saw a man carrying a child up at the top of the road( and they ALL believed her)...so how could GM not see her passing him by on the same side of the VERY SMALL PAVEMENT. No wonder they didn't want to do a re enactment!!
So let's spin this.
Gerry did not see her...because she was not there! but he is not saying she was not there, he is saying he did not see her there... Hmmm
It is not true to say that Gerry has stated that JT did not pass him on the road. That would mean he is calling her a liar. He has never done that. Unless you can provide the evidence to prove your claim - I think you should withdraw it. It's against the rules to import lies into this forum.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
Everyone in my office remembers their "five times table"- we all learned at different times and places, but the five times table never changed at all! Funny how we all remembered that...
IIRC learning tables was achieved by constant repetition of said tables. What has that got to do with 10 people trying to recall what they did at a specific time? All stuff which at the time of doing them they had no idea they had any need to remember them in any detail. Can you remember without checking - exactly how many posts you've posted in the last couple of days, who you were responding to and exactly what time you posted them?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 10:13:58 PM
[quote removed ]
Not a single thing has been learned since the first week of the case to rule anyone in or out.
You can say the police know more than we do, but that's exactly what we were told in 2007: it turned out to be incorrect then and I've every expectation it will be again.
You may be right to say the police aren't considering them now but that's another thing entirely.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:14:25 PM
Not a single thing has been learned since the first week of the case to rule anyone in or out.
You can say the police know more than we do, but that's exactly what we were told in 2007: it turned out to be incorrect then and I've every expectation it will be again.
You may be right to say the police aren't considering them now but that's another thing entirely.
So apart from what was learned in the first week we should disregard every other piece of information gathered since then, because nothing has been learned from them, is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 10:20:00 PM
So apart from what was learned in the first week we should disregard every other piece of information gathered since then, because nothing has been learned from them, is that what you're saying?
Nothing conclusive has been revealed.
All of the scenarios discussed in the first week are still possible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:21:31 PM
As I said earlier: cooperation, willingness to do anything to help find Madeleine, and lack of fear of returning.
Well. perhaps you can tell me how the "reonstitution" would have helped find Madeleine then, seeing as how the McCanns friends and Jez Wilkins were all of the firm belief that Madeleine was taken by a stranger.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 10, 2015, 10:22:46 PM
SY went to the trouble of producing an age progressed image of Maddie...Redwood has said that on the evidence there is a possibility she is alive....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:23:03 PM
As I said earlier: cooperation, willingness to do anything to help find Madeleine, and lack of fear of returning.
Why would you expect them to have any trust in anything the PJ told them after what they had experienced/witnessed in Portugal? Apart from that - how would any normal person feel knowing that the case had been led by a policemen suspected of serious wrong-doing in his last missing child case, and that his No. 2 was suspected of torturing a witness in one of his previous cases? And yet they were both allowed by the Portuguese system to stay in office and conduct yet another case!!
It would hardly fill you with confidence would it?
I can only assume that people who can't see that have no ability to put themselves in other people's shoes.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 10:35:08 PM
IIRC learning tables was achieved by constant repetition of said tables. What has that got to do with 10 people trying to recall what they did at a specific time? All stuff which at the time of doing them they had no idea they had any need to remember them in any detail. Can you remember without checking - exactly how many posts you've posted in the last couple of days, who you were responding to and exactly what time you posted them?
I could do better than that: If my neighbour ran banging my door telling me her daughter had been abducted - I would phone the police immediately and I would be able to tell the police everything I did that day-who I spoke to- what I had for dinner- what time I got up...ALL of that and then some, and it wasn't even my daughter!
The fives times table never changed - unlike the timeline... That was the point you missed! whoosh way over the head! lol
The Judiciary at that time needed clarification why can't you accept, that there are still to this day, discrepancies- now they may be innocent and easily explained discrepancies- but why try and make out it was about entrapment? and the McCanns should have been placed on a pedestal. You really do not have a valid argument or produce a reasonable excuse for Maddies parents behavior.
And maybe they 'knew' their chosen timeline would not stand up to scrutiny and that is why they felt it would be a 'trap'.
Anyway, we will never know. They didn't go!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:42:48 PM
I just case you the evidence: exoneration was declared in 2008, and that declaration was reinforced by the newspapers thousands of times. Everyone must now stick to that line.
Action taken against the Sunday Times is also evidence.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:46:44 PM
And if he'd said the opposite the quote would have been repeated a million times on social media wouldn't it.
The McCanns - and the papers - declared they'd been exonerated in 2008.
Anyone who doesn't stick with that line now - especially anyone as authoritative as the police - risks action.
They don't care when an idiot like me says it. But can you imagine what the uproar would have been if Redwood had said it? Huge!
Don't be absurd. He would not have said "the McCanns are suspects" he could easily have said "no comment" or "we are starting from the beginning and all possible scenarios are being investigated". He could not have been sued for saying either of those things. The fact is he made a categorical statement,leaving no one in any doubt. See my tag line below.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:48:02 PM
I just case you the evidence: exoneration was declared in 2008, and that declaration was reinforced by the newspapers thousands of times. Everyone must now stick to that line.
Action taken against the Sunday Times is also evidence.
That's your evidence the police are ruled by their lawyers? Pathetic.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 10:51:18 PM
Don't be absurd. He would not have said "the McCanns are suspects" he could easily have said "no comment" or "we are starting from the beginning and all possible scenarios are being investigated". He could not have been sued for saying either of those things. The fact is he made a categorical statement,leaving no one in any doubt. See my tag line below.
He made a statement that matched what the PM said. Who'd have expected that? 8)-)))
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 10:54:04 PM
I just case you the evidence: exoneration was declared in 2008, and that declaration was reinforced by the newspapers thousands of times. Everyone must now stick to that line.
Action taken against the Sunday Times is also evidence.
Sadly that is now the case. The Sunday Times could have done that piece better. I do agree there will be more litigation. And the NSY have not said WE HAVE LOOKED AT ALL THE EVIDNCE AND CAN SAY The family are not involved.
They are not suspects at this time...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 10:57:08 PM
I could do better than that: If my neighbour ran banging my door telling me her daughter had been abducted - I would phone the police immediately and I would be able to tell the police everything I did that day-who I spoke to- what I had for dinner- what time I got up...ALL of that and then some, and it wasn't even my daughter!
The fives times table never changed - unlike the timeline... That was the point you missed! whoosh way over the head! lol
The Judiciary at that time needed clarification why can't you accept, that there are still to this day, discrepancies- now they may be innocent and easily explained discrepancies- but why try and make out it was about entrapment? and the McCanns should have been placed on a pedestal. You really do not have a valid argument or produce a reasonable excuse for Maddies parents behavior.
And maybe they 'knew' their chosen timeline would not stand up to scrutiny and that is why they felt it would be a 'trap'.
Anyway, we will never know. They didn't go!
And what if you had nine other neighbours who became involved. Would you expect them to be able to do the same - and expect everything they said to fit in exactly with everything you said?
Memories don't work like that - they work like this:-
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 10:57:37 PM
Sadly that is now the case. The Sunday Times could have done that piece better. I do agree there will be more litigation. And the NSY have not said WE HAVE LOOKED AT ALL THE EVIDNCE AND CAN SAY The family are not involved.
They are not suspects at this time...
8((()*/ I agree.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 10, 2015, 11:07:52 PM
And what if you had nine other neighbours who became involved. Would you expect them to be able to do the same - and expect everything they said to fit in exactly with everything you said?
Memories don't work like that - they work like this:-
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
Yes I would expect my neighbours would be able to say what they did that day.
The people you are quoting are expressing an opinion- They do not know what I was doing when my neighbour ran to me do they? and you did direct that question to me!
Stress can cause blind panic in difficult situation I am not disagreeing with that. I am being specific about events leading up to Maddies disappearance- The tapas had an agenda of sorts I feel sure about that. I think it maybe they were afraid about the back lash regarding leaving the children alone- That is just an opinion.
If I were one of the Tapas I would certainly feel ill at the thought of people finding out about my stupid actions!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 11:08:32 PM
You or I wouldn't have two of the most formidable legal companies at our disposal would we.
That tends to suggest you believe the McCanns (and not just this case) are a bit special, hence they can go around frightening the poor old police force with their intimidating lawyers. So why are they so powerful in your view?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 11:14:29 PM
Sadly that is now the case. The Sunday Times could have done that piece better. I do agree there will be more litigation. And the NSY have not said WE HAVE LOOKED AT ALL THE EVIDNCE AND CAN SAY The family are not involved.
They are not suspects at this time...
Maybe SY assumed that most people - having heard his statement - had the intelligence to work it out for themselves that such a statement would not be possible unless SY had looked at all the evidence before coming to that decision. It's not rocket science.
The McCanns and their friends are neither suspects or persons of interest to SY or the PJ. Fact.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 10, 2015, 11:16:30 PM
That he was careful with his words. Especially around the time of October 2013's Crimewatch.
You think it's impossible the Met could be sued?
the ever increasing circle....The met>The Government>The media
All with something to hide. All scared of each other, all looking at each other/watching.
Something brewing with regards to the paedophile ring which hits the heart of Government of all parties-all tainted..the battle lines have been drawn and it all blew up with the Savile disclosure.
The Met will be watched and they will be watching because if there is any hint of a scandal they will NOT want to be tainted by it! The new DCI is very quiet...she hasn't declared anyone to be completely innocent has she?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 11:20:33 PM
You or I wouldn't have two of the most formidable legal companies at our disposal would we.
That tends to suggest you believe the McCanns (and not just this case) are a bit special, hence they can go around frightening the poor old police force with their intimidating lawyers. So why are they so powerful in your view?
They're not. But the lawyers are. The case is so special because it's so unique and has such a high profile.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 11:21:54 PM
They're not. But the lawyers are. The case is so special because it's so unique and has such a high profile.
Why do the McCanns have such special lawyers if they themselves are nothing special then? You seem almost to be suggesting the lawyers control the McCanns too now, most bizarre!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 10, 2015, 11:23:56 PM
Yes I would expect my neighbours would be able to say what they did that day.
The people you are quoting are expressing an opinion- They do not know what I was doing when my neighbour ran to me do they? and you did direct that question to me!
Stress can cause blind panic in difficult situation I am not disagreeing with that. I am being specific about events leading up to Maddies disappearance- The tapas had an agenda of sorts I feel sure about that. I think it maybe they were afraid about the back lash regarding leaving the children alone- That is just an opinion.
If I were one of the Tapas I would certainly feel ill at the thought of people finding out about my stupid actions!
Considering virtually the first thing the Tapas 7 told the police was their childcare arrangements - that makes no sense IMO.
Why should they have any fears on that subject - the Listening Service offered to holidaymakers, which they mirrored, is not illegal in Portugal.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 10, 2015, 11:24:41 PM
Why do the McCanns have such special lawyers if they themselves are nothing special then? You seem almost to be suggesting the lawyers control the McCanns too now, most bizarre!
Lawyers love cases with high profiles, because those are the cases that may be useful in creating precedents.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 11, 2015, 12:01:57 AM
And what if you had nine other neighbours who became involved. Would you expect them to be able to do the same - and expect everything they said to fit in exactly with everything you said?
Memories don't work like that - they work like this:-
Quote
In a crime situation memory is influenced by many factors such as stress, the presence of a weapon and even just the desire to help police solve the crime.
"Police know how fallible the memory can be," says Steve Retford, a former head of the investigative skills unit at GMP and now specialist interviewing adviser with the force.
"They also know this is usually not through mischievousness on the part of the witnesses, but through stress and shock."
Take the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot at Stockwell Tube station in 2005 by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber.
Eyewitnesses said he had vaulted a ticket barrier when running away from the police. In fact it was later shown by CCTV that Mr Menezes had walked through the barriers, having picked up a free newspaper, and only ran when he saw his train arriving. End quote
I find it strange that you are so keen on pointing out the fallibility of memory yet are so against a reconstitution which would have clarified those memories and produced a realistic timeline.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 11, 2015, 12:24:55 AM
I find it strange that you are so keen on pointing out the fallibility of memory yet are so against a reconstitution which would have clarified those memories and produced a realistic timeline.
But how could that be Starti - they would have to remember all their conversations and how long they took. Also how fast or slowly they walked to and from various places - what time they started eating, the exact time they got up from the table etc. etc. It's just not possible IMO for one person to do that - let alone 10 of them. Their movements intertwined with one another e.g. for Gerry, Jez and JT to all be able to exactly re-enact all coming together in the same place for a few seconds - the three of them would HAVE to know the exact times of their movements that night. And they didn't know them. IMO the PJ were asking the impossible - because it's not humanly possible for several people to carry out a recon with the PRECISION of memory that it would require to make it an accurate one.
All it would prove is that it isn't possible for 10 people to accurately recreate hours of various movements by those10 people. So what good would that be to the investigation?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 11, 2015, 12:49:05 AM
But how could that be Starti - they would have to remember all their conversations and how long they took. Also how fast or slowly they walked to and from various places - what time they started eating, the exact time they got up from the table etc. etc. It's just not possible IMO for one person to do that - let alone 10 of them. Their movements intertwined with one another e.g. for Gerry, Jez and JT to all be able to exactly re-enact all coming together in the same place for a few seconds - the three of them would HAVE to know the exact times of their movements that night. And they didn't know them. IMO the PJ were asking the impossible - because it's not humanly possible for several people to carry out a recon with the PRECISION of memory that it would require to make it an accurate one.
All it would prove is that it isn't possible for 10 people to accurately recreate hours of various movements by those10 people. So what good would that be to the investigation?
What a pity that the CCTV at the supermarket wasn't recording ... it would probably have covered the entrance to the tapas restaurant, a good part of the street and the car park ... it would have picked up Gerry, Jez, Jane and who knows ... perhaps even the man carrying a child crossing the junction.
Now that would have been evidence!! and since the requirement for the tapas time line was to try to identify exactly when Madeleine may have been abducted which has been in dispute ever since anyway ... the CCTV would have sorted that and the need for a very much later re-enactment.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 11, 2015, 12:57:15 AM
What a pity that the CCTV at the supermarket wasn't recording ... it would probably have covered the entrance to the tapas restaurant, a good part of the street and the car park ... it would have picked up Gerry, Jez, Jane and who knows ... perhaps even the man carrying a child crossing the junction.
Now that would have been evidence!! and since the requirement for the tapas time line was to try to identify exactly when Madeleine may have been abducted which has been in dispute ever since anyway ... the CCTV would have sorted that and the need for a very much later re-enactment.
How true. And IIRC even Amaral had the good grace to admit that the PJ were remiss in taking so long to check the CCTV cameras that were in the area - and so may have missed what might have been vital evidence.
Such a shame.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 11, 2015, 01:05:21 AM
How true. And IIRC even Amaral had the good grace to admit that the PJ were remiss in taking so long to check the CCTV cameras that were in the area - and so may have missed what might have been vital evidence.
Such a shame.
Dr Amaral is indeed on record regretting the fact that the hotel CCTV had been erased because he was sure the man seen by the Smith family would have been picked up on it.
It would at least have corroborated the exact time when the Smith family returned to the hotel.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 11, 2015, 08:34:51 AM
What a pity that the CCTV at the supermarket wasn't recording ... it would probably have covered the entrance to the tapas restaurant, a good part of the street and the car park ... it would have picked up Gerry, Jez, Jane and who knows ... perhaps even the man carrying a child crossing the junction.
Now that would have been evidence!! and since the requirement for the tapas time line was to try to identify exactly when Madeleine may have been abducted which has been in dispute ever since anyway ... the CCTV would have sorted that and the need for a very much later re-enactment.
If it had been working, we would no doubt have people arguing over the accuracy of the clock.
I agree that it would have provided evidence of the timing of the various activities relative to one another and the real positions of the players.
It seems that CCTV often fails when it is must needed - think of all those cameras not working on the London underground just when the police were shooting that Brazilian, so no visual evidence.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 11, 2015, 09:22:43 AM
But how could that be Starti - they would have to remember all their conversations and how long they took. Also how fast or slowly they walked to and from various places - what time they started eating, the exact time they got up from the table etc. etc. It's just not possible IMO for one person to do that - let alone 10 of them. Their movements intertwined with one another e.g. for Gerry, Jez and JT to all be able to exactly re-enact all coming together in the same place for a few seconds - the three of them would HAVE to know the exact times of their movements that night. And they didn't know them. IMO the PJ were asking the impossible - because it's not humanly possible for several people to carry out a recon with the PRECISION of memory that it would require to make it an accurate one.
All it would prove is that it isn't possible for 10 people to accurately recreate hours of various movements by those10 people. So what good would that be to the investigation?
It's not about using them intellectually thinking about the night and then trying to adjust time to set off, walking pace etc. it is about them instinctively doing what they did that night and adjusting things to create a viable time line if possible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2015, 09:29:52 AM
It's not about using them intellectually thinking about the night and then trying to adjust time to set off, walking pace etc. it is about them instinctively doing what they did that night and adjusting things to create a viable time line if possible.
meanwhile SY are spending 10 mill investigating suspects in Portugal when you and others on here think the guilty are under their noses in the UK ...do you realise how stupid that idea is?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2015, 09:39:32 AM
meanwhile SY are spending 10 mill investigating suspects in Portugal when you and others on here think the guilty are under their noses in the UK ...do you realise how stupid that idea is?
Indeed.
£10 M down the drain, when public services in this country are suffering, police stations are closing and with a case which will be inevitably shelved bar a confession.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 11, 2015, 09:44:27 AM
£10 M down the drain, when public services in this country are suffering, police stations are closing and with a case which will be inevitably shelved bar a confession.
then tell me why SY are spending 10 mill if they believed, as you do, in the accident theory
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on January 11, 2015, 09:44:59 AM
I find it strange that you are so keen on pointing out the fallibility of memory yet are so against a reconstitution which would have clarified those memories and produced a realistic timeline.
It is all on written record Slarti. A record made when it was fresh in their minds.
As you well know, The Mccanns wanted a reconstruction way back immediately after the crime, but none was happening. Amaral has given his excuses on that .
The Mccanns were willing to come back for the *ahem* Reconstitution, but others that were necessary were either unwilling to come back or were unable to.
You KNOW the facts. Why do you keep going on about it?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2015, 09:47:01 AM
The contention that Madeleine's father was the man who was the carrier in the alleged Smith sighting is one which will never be put to bed by the people who choose to believe it no matter what the result of contemporaneous re-enactments. The people who actually matter ... the PJ and SY ... obviously put it to bed long ago.
We already know that Martin Smith's identification was mistaken ... just as the almost identical statement made by Mr McCluskey which pre-dated it was mistaken.
On the other hand, if the Smith party of nine had revisited their route and venues of the evening ... an independent witness might have remembered seeing them ... or even remember serving them drinks.
Timeline is key. Somebody gave the sighting time away so it's obvious who Smithman is.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 11, 2015, 01:16:30 PM
Smithman gave the time away. You will find out because everything connects unlike your theory. Everything connects to the real timeline. They were asked to come back to do a reconstruction to account for their times away from the table/alibi. The liars will soon get found out and they refused to do it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 12, 2015, 12:55:04 AM
E – About the interest of the reconstruction
Taking into account that there were certain points in the arguidos' and witnesses' statements that revealed, apparently at least, contradiction or that lacked physical confirmation, it was decided to carry out the "reconstruction of the fact", a diligence that is consecrated in article 150 of the Penal Process Code in the sense of duly clarifying, on the very location of the facts, the following very important details, among others:
1 – The physical, real and effective proximity between Jane Tanner, Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, at the moment when the first person walked by them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, in our perspective, strange that neither Gerald McCann nor Jeremy Wilkins saw her, or the alleged abductor, despite the exiguity of the space and the peacefulness of the area;
2 – The situation concerning the window to the bedroom where Madeleine slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to Kate. It seemed then necessary to clarify if there was a draught, since movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which, eventually, could be verified through the reconstitution;
3 – The establishment of a timeline and of a line of effective checking on the minors that were left alone in the apartments, given that, if it is believed that such checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, at least, very difficult to reunite conditions for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said abductor, with the child, namely through a window with scarce space. It is added that the supposed abductor could only pass, through that window, holding the minor in a different position (vertical) from the one that witness JANE TANNER saw (horizontal);
4 – What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. – the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings – and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy – at around 10 p.m.;
5 – The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.
Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html#adi7
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Moderator on January 27, 2015, 06:09:28 PM
In the case of a disappeared child, the simple decent act would be to do all and everything they could to assist the investigation. In this case that didn't happen, the police were seriously thwarted in their attempts to unravel the mystery.
The blame for failure must therefore rest fairly and squarely with those who reneged.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 27, 2015, 06:12:23 PM
In the case of a disappeared child, the simple decent act would be to do all and everything they could to assist the investigation. In this case that didn't happen, the police were seriously thwarted in their attempts to unravel the mystery.
The blame for failure must therefore rest fairly and squarely with those who reneged.
and others feel the blame for failure lies squarely at the door of the PJ...it's a matter of opinion
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 27, 2015, 06:14:02 PM
In the case of a disappeared child, the simple decent act would be to do all and everything they could to assist the investigation. In this case that didn't happen, the police were seriously thwarted in their attempts to unravel the mystery.
The blame for failure must therefore rest fairly and squarely with those who reneged.
Yes it's been a few days since we had a go at the parents and their acquaintances for not wanting to take part in a reconstruction a year after the event so jolly good show kicking off that particular discussion again.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 27, 2015, 06:19:11 PM
Well, it makes a change from those pesky dogs.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 27, 2015, 06:23:39 PM
In the case of a disappeared child, the simple decent act would be to do all and everything they could to assist the investigation. In this case that didn't happen, the police were seriously thwarted in their attempts to unravel the mystery.
The blame for failure must therefore rest fairly and squarely with those who reneged.
When a reconstruction was requested soon after Madeleine McCann's disappearance when it would have been of optimum value in finding out what had happened to her ... it was refused.
Memories might have been jogged and relevant witnesses still around; for example the Smiths may have realised long before the fortnight it took to realise they had not been dreaming when they saw a man carrying a child; we might also have discovered the true identity of the Murat look alike seen observing from the sidelines.
When the Rebelo reconstruction was proposed ... the Drs McCann agreed to attend ... no one else had to.
So I would say the blame for not holding a reconstitution when it actually mattered lies fair and square with the Portuguese ... not the victims.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 27, 2015, 06:26:05 PM
When a reconstruction was requested soon after Madeleine McCann's disappearance when it would have been of optimum value in finding out what had happened to her ... it was refused.
Memories might have been jogged and relevant witnesses still around; for example the Smiths may have realised long before the fortnight it took to realise they had not been dreaming when they saw a man carrying a child; we might also have discovered the true identity of the Murat look alike seen observing from the sidelines.
When the Rebelo reconstruction was proposed ... the Drs McCann agreed to attend ... no one else had to.
So I would say the blame for not holding a reconstitution when it actually mattered lies fair and square with the Portuguese ... not the victims.
The mccanns aren't the victims.
Madeleine was.
Due to the inadequacies of her parents.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2015, 06:31:07 PM
There can be no excuse for refusing to cooperate with a missing child investigation. They should all hang their heads in shame.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 27, 2015, 06:38:14 PM
There can be no excuse for refusing to cooperate with a missing child investigation. They should all hang their heads in shame.
The only person I can think of who comes into that category is Ricardo Paiva and his infamous irrelevant file.
Not even Jez Wilkins' refusal to return to Portugal meets the accusation of failure to cooperate in a missing child investigation ... he refused to attend a reconstruction for an investigation into her parents, yes ... but there was never any refusal to assist a missing child inquiry.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
The only person I can think of who comes into that category is Ricardo Paiva and his infamous irrelevant file.
Not even Jez Wilkins' refusal to return to Portugal meets the accusation of failure to cooperate in a missing child investigation ... he refused to attend a reconstruction for an investigation into her parents, yes ... but there was never any refusal to assist a missing child inquiry.
Refusing to take part in a reconstruction was just that. Appalling imo.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 27, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
The only person I can think of who comes into that category is Ricardo Paiva and his infamous irrelevant file.
Not even Jez Wilkins' refusal to return to Portugal meets the accusation of failure to cooperate in a missing child investigation ... he refused to attend a reconstruction for an investigation into her parents, yes ... but there was never any refusal to assist a missing child inquiry.
You can perhaps provide corroborative evidence to support that statement?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 27, 2015, 07:06:16 PM
You can perhaps provide corroborative evidence to support that statement?
Please take time out to read the emails from the friends of the Drs McCann and Jeremy Wilkins concerning the proposed reconstruction and note the concerns raised. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
One rather suspects the Portuguese authorities may well have achieved the desired outcome.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 27, 2015, 09:55:38 PM
Please take time out to read the emails from the friends of the Drs McCann and Jeremy Wilkins concerning the proposed reconstruction and note the concerns raised. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id279.html
One rather suspects the Portuguese authorities may well have achieved the desired outcome.
Yeah so! I have read all this long ago and as I recall Jeremy Wilkins did not say anything remotely like that which you attribute to him. To paraphrase; you said Jez intimated he would have gone if it was to search for a child but not if it was to finger the parents. That viewpoint is not reflected in the only statement I have found from JW. Perhaps you will be kind enough to post a link to the JW statement that supports your position.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 27, 2015, 10:02:07 PM
Yeah so! I have read all this long ago and as I recall Jeremy Wilkins did not say anything remotely like that which you attribute to him. To paraphrase; you said Jez intimated he would have gone if it was to search for a child but not if it was to finger the parents. That viewpoint is not reflected in the only statement I have found from JW. Perhaps you will be kind enough to post a link to the JW statement that supports your position.
I suspect they did not give their genuine reason for not returning in their statements so they would be of little value...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 27, 2015, 10:28:50 PM
Yeah so! I have read all this long ago and as I recall Jeremy Wilkins did not say anything remotely like that which you attribute to him. To paraphrase; you said Jez intimated he would have gone if it was to search for a child but not if it was to finger the parents. That viewpoint is not reflected in the only statement I have found from JW. Perhaps you will be kind enough to post a link to the JW statement that supports your position.
Please have the courtesy not to rewrite my posts to suit whatever agenda it is you may have and take note of what I have actually written ... which coincidentally does not pretend to include a direct quotation from Jeremy Wilkins.
Do try to read posts in the context of the ongoing discussion and go with the flow if possible rather than twist what is said to suit yourself.
There are three way conversations between Stuart Prior, the personages required to make up the numbers for the reconstruction including Jeremy Wilkins and the Portuguese. If you read through those communications in the link I provided, you will note the way those conversations developed.
I think it may be intimated that there was unhappiness with the Portuguese side of the conversation among the McCann friends by the fact that lawyers were consulted and I think I probably intimated that being an intelligent man Jeremy Wilkins was very aware of exactly what was intended, just as everyone else seemed to be.
So your inference falls short of the mark ... but nil desperandum ... I'm sure you will come up with something equally as world shattering to nit pick about.
"Not even Jez Wilkins' refusal to return to Portugal meets the accusation of failure to cooperate in a missing child investigation ... he refused to attend a reconstruction for an investigation into her parents, yes ... but there was never any refusal to assist a missing child inquiry." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3699.msg215353#msg215353
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 27, 2015, 10:29:20 PM
I suspect they did not give their genuine reason for not returning in their statements so they would be of little value...
In that case how can Brietta make an assertion about Jez's statement ? Maybe she knows him or just whistling in the wind?. Perm any one from two and lay your purse.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 27, 2015, 10:36:36 PM
Jez Wilkins partner makes it pretty clear what their views were on tne McCanns and the PJ in her Guardian article at the end of 2007.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 27, 2015, 11:00:09 PM
Jez Wilkins partner makes it pretty clear what their views were on tne McCanns and the PJ in her Guardian article at the end of 2007.
Jeremy Wilkins had already given some thought to the atmosphere surrounding Madeleine McCann's disappearance and the assertions being made against her family and their friends and by association himself.
There may have been many reasons for his reluctance to return to Portugal for a reconstitution IMO one of which might have been because the reconstruction had nothing to do with Madeleine and all to do with her parents, possibly their friends and perhaps himself.
**snip Quietly, we began to worry that Jes might be next in line for some imagined blame or accusation. On a Saturday night in September, he received a call: we were on the front page of the News of the World. They had surreptitiously taken photographs of us, outside the house. There were no more details. We went to bed, but we could not sleep. "Maddie: the secret witness," said the headline, "TV boss holds vital clue to the mystery." Unfortunately, Jes does not hold any such vital clues. In November, he inched through the events of that May night with Leicestershire detectives, but he saw nothing suspicious, nothing that would further the investigation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 27, 2015, 11:42:26 PM
In that case how can Brietta make an assertion about Jez's statement ? Maybe she knows him or just whistling in the wind?. Perm any one from two and lay your purse.
Oh I see my so called "intimation" has transmogrified into an "assertion" in the blink of an eye; such is the stuff of invention when one can find nothing of substance to say.
I am bemused why posters think that people should be so entrusting of the police authorities of any country but particularly one where they are ignorant of custom, law and language without giving very careful consideration to their own and their families' security. It should be borne in mind that the McCann friends already did not have a positive experience of the PJ.
My suspicions would have been raised by the fact that they were told not to bring their children to Portugal with them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 27, 2015, 11:44:59 PM
Jeremy Wilkins had already given some thought to the atmosphere surrounding Madeleine McCann's disappearance and the assertions being made against her family and their friends and by association himself.
There may have been many reasons for his reluctance to return to Portugal for a reconstitution IMO one of which might have been because the reconstruction had nothing to do with Madeleine and all to do with her parents, possibly their friends and perhaps himself.
**snip Quietly, we began to worry that Jes might be next in line for some imagined blame or accusation. On a Saturday night in September, he received a call: we were on the front page of the News of the World. They had surreptitiously taken photographs of us, outside the house. There were no more details. We went to bed, but we could not sleep. "Maddie: the secret witness," said the headline, "TV boss holds vital clue to the mystery." Unfortunately, Jes does not hold any such vital clues. In November, he inched through the events of that May night with Leicestershire detectives, but he saw nothing suspicious, nothing that would further the investigation. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann
And perhaps the participants in the aborted reconstruction should have spent more time helping the police than trying to second guess them. Don't you think saving your own skin is a cowardly justification for not helping in the police investigation to find a child ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 27, 2015, 11:52:40 PM
Oh I see my so called "intimation" has transmogrified into an "assertion" in the blink of an eye; such is the stuff of invention when one can find nothing of substance to say.
I am bemused why posters think that people should be so entrusting of the police authorities of any country but particularly one where they are ignorant of custom, law and language without giving very careful consideration to their own and their families' security. It should be borne in mind that the McCann friends already did not have a positive experience of the PJ.
My suspicions would have been raised by the fact that they were told not to bring their children to Portugal with them.
Why in heavens name would the McCann's friends need to bring their children anyway ? Who would look after them while the reconstruction was taking place ? The PJ simply intimated that the reconstruction process would be swifter if they were not accompanied by their children. I see nothing wrong in that and, with respect, I don't see why you do.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 08:36:02 AM
And perhaps the participants in the aborted reconstruction should have spent more time helping the police than trying to second guess them. Don't you think saving your own skin is a cowardly justification for not helping in the police investigation to find a child ?
Perhaps you could explain to us all how a reconstruction as envisaged by the PJ in 2008 would have helped them to find Madeleine?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 28, 2015, 10:31:49 AM
Oh I see my so called "intimation" has transmogrified into an "assertion" in the blink of an eye; such is the stuff of invention when one can find nothing of substance to say.
I am bemused why posters think that people should be so entrusting of the police authorities of any country but particularly one where they are ignorant of custom, law and language without giving very careful consideration to their own and their families' security. It should be borne in mind that the McCann friends already did not have a positive experience of the PJ.
My suspicions would have been raised by the fact that they were told not to bring their children to Portugal with them.
IMO the PJ knew it was highly unlikely that - after their own experiences - and seeing what happened to the McCanns - the group would agree to return. Their trust in the PJ by that time would be non-existent,
I also think the PJ did nothing to allay their concerns - in fact quite the opposite. The correspondence between the PJ and the group reflects that IMO. For instance - not being able to guarantee the Press could be kept at bay, describing the McCanns as 'the defendants' etc etc - and also the request not to bring the children would certainly be a red flag to me in those particular circumstances. Hardly encouraging was it - I'm not surprised that their solicitors advised them not to go.
IMO it was face-saving operation by the PJ. A way of deflecting the blame elsewhere for having to shelve the case - and to take the emphasis away from the inadequacies of their own investigations. It certainly worked for the sceptics but not for everyone - as the following quote shows.
Quote
ANTONIO MARINHO PINTO: (translated) I’m convinced the McCann case will feature in Portuguese judicial history as a bad example. What a criminal investigation should not be. Unquote
(from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2015, 11:24:35 AM
Oh I see my so called "intimation" has transmogrified into an "assertion" in the blink of an eye; such is the stuff of invention when one can find nothing of substance to say.
I am bemused why posters think that people should be so entrusting of the police authorities of any country but particularly one where they are ignorant of custom, law and language without giving very careful consideration to their own and their families' security. It should be borne in mind that the McCann friends already did not have a positive experience of the PJ.
My suspicions would have been raised by the fact that they were told not to bring their children to Portugal with them.
To paraphrase the late Jack Fingleton "whadda yer mean by transmogrified Brietta". [imagine it is being said in an Australian accent] 8(0(*
I believe in one of the letters from T7 to Stuart Prior it was implied that they would take part on the condition that the arguido status was lifted from Drs McCann and that no action would be taken against T7 (or some such). If you wade through the link you posted to me you will undoubtedly find it.
As for your attempted condescending put downs I have been insulted by experts luv and you ain't by any stretch of the imagination Dorothy Parker. Added to which the presence of the insult/putdown does rather telegraph that I hit the inner 8(>((
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2015, 11:49:51 AM
IMO the PJ knew it was highly unlikely that - after their own experiences - and seeing what happened to the McCanns - the group would agree to return. Their trust in the PJ by that time would be non-existent,
I also think the PJ did nothing to allay their concerns - in fact quite the opposite. The correspondence between the PJ and the group reflects that IMO. For instance - not being able to guarantee the Press could be kept at bay, describing the McCanns as 'the defendants' etc etc - and also the request not to bring the children would certainly be a red flag to me in those particular circumstances. Hardly encouraging was it - I'm not surprised that their solicitors advised them not to go.
IMO it was face-saving operation by the PJ. A way of deflecting the blame elsewhere for having to shelve the case - and to take the emphasis away from the inadequacies of their own investigations. It certainly worked for the sceptics but not for everyone - as the following quote shows.
Quote
ANTONIO MARINHO PINTO: (translated) I’m convinced the McCann case will feature in Portuguese judicial history as a bad example. What a criminal investigation should not be. Unquote
(from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary)
The police are in charge not them. If they believe a reconstruction would help them with their investigation then you should do it. But no let's hide behind our lawyers instead of cooperating. Another good reason not to say any of them are suspects me thinks. Help me CR the ffin tossers are back 8)><(
"It is a sad fact that not a single police force anywhere is proactively looking for Madeleine." (KM)
You can blame yourselves and not anybody else when you refused to cooperate!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 12:05:46 PM
To paraphrase the late Jack Fingleton "whadda yer mean by transmogrified Brietta". [imagine it is being said in an Australian accent] 8(0(*
I believe in one of the letters from T7 to Stuart Prior it was implied that they would take part on the condition that the arguido status was lifted from Drs McCann and that no action would be taken against T7 (or some such). If you wade through the link you posted to me you will undoubtedly find it.
As for your attempted condescending put downs I have been insulted by experts luv and you ain't by any stretch of the imagination Dorothy Parker. Added to which the presence of the insult/putdown does rather telegraph that I hit the inner 8(>((
It seems my posting style is a matter for some criticism from your worthy self and one or two other worthies.
IMO that would appear to indicate that I'm doing something right ... however feel free to continue to attack the messenger, it merely illustrates that you are unable to contradict the message.
With reference to the cite you have mentioned ... it is worth noting that the intended witnesses took legal advice as a result of the tone of communications received from Portugal ... they were not easily manipulated poor, illiterate Nationals like the Ciprianos, of whose case I am sure they would have been aware ... but Educated British Nationals who took an informed decision not to participate in a farce.
They would also be well aware that a reconstitution had been refused in Portugal at a time when it would have been of value in the case of a missing child.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 12:15:54 PM
IMO the PJ knew it was highly unlikely that - after their own experiences - and seeing what happened to the McCanns - the group would agree to return. Their trust in the PJ by that time would be non-existent,
I also think the PJ did nothing to allay their concerns - in fact quite the opposite. The correspondence between the PJ and the group reflects that IMO. For instance - not being able to guarantee the Press could be kept at bay, describing the McCanns as 'the defendants' etc etc - and also the request not to bring the children would certainly be a red flag to me in those particular circumstances. Hardly encouraging was it - I'm not surprised that their solicitors advised them not to go.
IMO it was face-saving operation by the PJ. A way of deflecting the blame elsewhere for having to shelve the case - and to take the emphasis away from the inadequacies of their own investigations. It certainly worked for the sceptics but not for everyone - as the following quote shows.
Quote
ANTONIO MARINHO PINTO: (translated) I’m convinced the McCann case will feature in Portuguese judicial history as a bad example. What a criminal investigation should not be. Unquote
(from memory so am happy to be corrected if necessary)
Wasn't Rebelo supposed to ge the new broom that swept all that 'Amaral' nonsense away ? What cause did the McCanns and their friends have for not trusting him ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2015, 12:37:14 PM
It seems my posting style is a matter for some criticism from your worthy self and one or two other worthies.
IMO that would appear to indicate that I'm doing something right ... however feel free to continue to attack the messenger, it merely illustrates that you are unable to contradict the message.
With reference to the cite you have mentioned ... it is worth noting that the intended witnesses took legal advice as a result of the tone of communications received from Portugal ... they were not easily manipulated poor, illiterate Nationals like the Ciprianos, of whose case I am sure they would have been aware ... but Educated British Nationals who took an informed decision not to participate in a farce.
They would also be well aware that a reconstitution had been refused in Portugal at a time when it would have been of value in the case of a missing child.
Red bit: So? Does this have relevance?
Purple bit: So you are approving of "educated British nationals" trying to dictate to foreign police forces how they execute their duties? I have observed before it is as well it was Portugal rather than Sweden or The Czech Rebublic!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 12:41:56 PM
It's not for me to explain but simply to accept that the PJ found it necessary.
To find Madeleine or to prove their thesis? I don't see how, by any stretch of the imagination a reconstruction could have helped towards the former, perhaps you could stretch your imagination and give me an example of how it might have done..?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 12:57:27 PM
To find Madeleine or to prove their thesis? I don't see how, by any stretch of the imagination a reconstruction could have helped towards the former, perhaps you could stretch your imagination and give me an example of how it might have done..?
The PJ remit was to solve the case be that finding Madeleine alive or bringing to book the individuals responsible for her demise and in that context the request for a reconstruction was totally understandable. The evidence led them to the McCanns. If the McCanns and their friends truly wanted to move the investigation on they would have done everything to possible to answer the PJ's suspicions. It really is as simple as that.
When suspicion fell on Ed Smart after his daughter's disappearance he willingly took a polygraph. There was no refusal to cooperate as he was aware by ruling himself out the police could refocus their efforts elsewhere. Why wasn't this course of action taken by the McCanns ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 01:26:06 PM
Purple bit: So you are approving of "educated British nationals" trying to dictate to foreign police forces how they execute their duties? I have observed before it is as well it was Portugal rather than Sweden or The Czech Rebublic!
If you care to diss discuss the relevance or not of parts of a particular post do feel free(dom of speech and all that) to do just that. Rhetorical questions are fine ... but there seems to be a bit of a trend in asking them.
For future reference and for your information ... if I go to the bother of posting it by definition I believe it is relevant ... if you think otherwise ... do discuss.
For example ... I think it is entirely relevant to point out that of late there is an apparent concerted effort by one or two posters to disrupt this forum ... whether that is by accident or design is all a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 01:36:13 PM
The PJ remit was to solve the case be that finding Madeleine alive or bringing to book the individuals responsible for her demise and in that context the request for a reconstruction was totally understandable. The evidence led them to the McCanns. If the McCanns and their friends truly wanted to move the investigation on they would have done everything to possible to answer the PJ's suspicions. It really is as simple as that.
When suspicion fell on Ed Smart after his daughter's disappearance he willingly took a polygraph. There was no refusal to cooperate as he was aware by ruling himself out the police could refocus their efforts elsewhere. Why wasn't this course of action taken by the McCanns ?
OK then, tell me how taking part in a reconstruction would have demonstrated the McCanns innocence? Simply the act of taking part, or would more have been required, and if so - what?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 01:43:11 PM
OK then, tell me how taking part in a reconstruction would have demonstrated the McCanns innocence? Simply the act of taking part, or would more have been required, and if so - what?
But isn't that the whole point Alfredo? The reconstruction involving the original participants was a necessary exercise to establish who was lying through their teeth.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carew on January 28, 2015, 01:43:37 PM
With reference to the cite you have mentioned ... it is worth noting that the intended witnesses took legal advice as a result of the tone of communications received from Portugal ... they were not easily manipulated It seems my posting style is a matter for some criticism from your worthy self and one or two other worthies.
IMO that would appear to indicate that I'm doing something right ... however feel free to continue to attack the messenger, it merely illustrates that you are unable to contradict the message.
poor, illiterate Nationals like the Ciprianos, of whose case I am sure they would have been aware ... but Educated British Nationals who took an informed decision not to participate in a farce.
They would also be well aware that a reconstitution had been refused in Portugal at a time when it would have been of value in the case of a missing child.
So the posting style is an integral part of the point or message itself............and that the weaving in of the insult to morals or intelligence of the opposition serves to demonstrate how unanswerable or difficult to contradict the point is?
The nastier the put-down; the more unanswerable the point.
* makes notes in the margin*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 02:10:01 PM
But isn't that the whole point Alfredo? The reconstruction involving the original participants was a necessary exercise to establish who was lying through their teeth.
Which is what I said earlier - the reconstruction was nothing about looking for a child and everything about trying to prove a thesis. What if no one was lying, have you ever considered that?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 02:15:47 PM
I'd still love one of you wise guys to let us know how a reconstruction would demonstrate how anyone was lying as opposed to simply mistaken. Come on, tell us how that would work.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 02:18:37 PM
OK then, tell me how taking part in a reconstruction would have demonstrated the McCanns innocence? Simply the act of taking part, or would more have been required, and if so - what?
Can I point you again to my last but one answer.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 02:22:19 PM
I'd still love one of you wise guys to let us know how a reconstruction would demonstrate how anyone was lying as opposed to simply mistaken. Come on, tell us how that would work.
It seems to that if 'mistakes ' had been identified and corrected, that would have given the police a much clearer picture of events than they actually had.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 02:22:34 PM
This is your last but one answer - please explain how it answers my question?
Quote
Wasn't Rebelo supposed to ge the new broom that swept all that 'Amaral' nonsense away ? What cause did the McCanns and their friends have for not trusting him ?
I repeat I'd still love one of you wise guys to let us know how a reconstruction would demonstrate how anyone was lying as opposed to simply mistaken. Come on, tell us how that would work.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 02:25:53 PM
It seems to that if 'mistakes ' had been identified and corrected, that would have given the police a much clearer picture of events than they actually had.
Sorry, but that doesn't really answer the question. So, you're allowing for the fact that the Tapas group and Jez Wilkins may have remembered things slightly differently and / or were mistaken, and you're saying a reconstruction would allow these mistakes to be corrected - then what exactly would that demonstrate as to a) who was supposedly lying and b) what had happened to Madeleine?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 02:31:37 PM
It would depend on what the 'mistakes' might have been. If it could have been demonstrated that events didn't happen as stated, then they could have been discounted and this might, for example, changed the accepted timeline - as if fact was done much later by SY.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 02:36:34 PM
It seems to that if 'mistakes ' had been identified and corrected, that would have given the police a much clearer picture of events than they actually had.
Do you know if crèche man AKA Tanner man received an invitation to attend the reconstruction? ... if so it would certainly have been interesting to see why he was taking that particular route home.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 02:39:24 PM
How could he if his identity wasn't known at the time? I'm sure SY would have discussed this with him in sufficient detail to be satisfied.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 02:48:00 PM
It would depend on what the 'mistakes' might have been. If it could have been demonstrated that events didn't happen as stated, then they could have been discounted and this might, for example, changed the accepted timeline - as if fact was done much later by SY.
Who somehow managed to achieve a result without recourse to a physical reconstruction.
The wonders of modern technology and computer models combined with good old detection techniques perhaps.
I would also be of the opinion that there was a measure of cooperation and exchange of information between SY and the PJ, who were reported by residents as walking through areas connected with Madeleine's case doing their own reconstitution prior to Portugal reopening her case.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 02:51:59 PM
We don't know how SY came to that conclusion, so it is wrong to assume that they did a computer simulation in order to do so.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 02:52:16 PM
It would depend on what the 'mistakes' might have been. If it could have been demonstrated that events didn't happen as stated, then they could have been discounted and this might, for example, changed the accepted timeline - as if fact was done much later by SY.
Re: the bit in bold - I genuinely do not see how this could have been demonstrated be re-enactment. The timeline hangs together quite cohesively when you look at everyone's statements as a whole. In fact, what it reminds me of is one of those David Hockney "joiners" - where he photographs an area of the same subject and pieces them all together - some of the images don't quite marry up exactly but the overall impression is pretty accurate. (https://simonthebold.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/04-the-scrabble-game.jpg) (Not actually by Hockney but the same principle)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
Who somehow managed to achieve a result without recourse to a physical reconstruction.
The wonders of modern technology and computer models combined with good old detection techniques perhaps.
I would also be of the opinion that there was a measure of cooperation and exchange of information between SY and the PJ, who were reported by residents as walking through areas connected with Madeleine's case doing their own reconstitution prior to Portugal reopening her case.
A detective finds hidden or unknown information. A reconstruction with all the actual witnesses involved is a tool to achieve that objective.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 02:55:12 PM
How could he if his identity wasn't known at the time? I'm sure SY would have discussed this with him in sufficient detail to be satisfied.
Why wasn't his identity known at the time?
The crèche records didn't suddenly materialise when Operation Grange started looking into Madeleine's case ... they were in existence from 3rd May 2007 onwards ... the information was to hand for the reconstruction and there was no reason for the PJ not to have identified him in time for the invitation to go out.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 02:57:03 PM
Who somehow managed to achieve a result without recourse to a physical reconstruction.
The wonders of modern technology and computer models combined with good old detection techniques perhaps.
I would also be of the opinion that there was a measure of cooperation and exchange of information between SY and the PJ, who were reported by residents as walking through areas connected with Madeleine's case doing their own reconstitution prior to Portugal reopening her case.
I know you won't provide one but you can't blame a girl for trying ! So here goes.........!
' SY and the PJ, who were reported by residents as walking through areas connected with Madeleine's case doing their own reconstitution prior to Portugal reopening her case '
Cite please ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2015, 03:00:13 PM
The crèche records didn't suddenly materialise when Operation Grange started looking into Madeleine's case ... they were in existence from 3rd May 2007 onwards ... the information was to hand for the reconstruction and there was no reason for the PJ not to have identified him in time for the invitation to go out.
Didn't LP have it like the Gaspar statements? Why didn't they forward it on as top priority - a man who said he was carrying a child past that apartment! LP what the hell were they doing?
"The innocent dad came forward in 2007 to say he was the person seen carrying a child in Portugal at the time the three-year-old vanished.
Following Madeleine’s disappearance, Leicestershire police were responsible for collating all UK-based inquiries at the request of the Portuguese authorities.
It is not clear if the questionnaires were analysed by the British force or simply forwarded to Portugal."
We don't know how SY came to that conclusion, so it is wrong to assume that they did a computer simulation in order to do so.
So is HOLMES just a big expensive piece of modern art ... just for looking at but not to be used? Or do your local police still use quills and carrier pigeons?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 03:03:42 PM
I'm sure Holmes is very useful. That does not prove that it was used to come to the conclusion about Tannermans movements.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 03:15:57 PM
I know you won't provide one but you can't blame a girl for trying ! So here goes.........!
' SY and the PJ, who were reported by residents as walking through areas connected with Madeleine's case doing their own reconstitution prior to Portugal reopening her case '
Cite please ?
Portuguese police held their own Madeleine McCann reconstruction
A RECONSTRUCTION by Portuguese detectives of key events on the day Madeleine McCann went missing has helped persuade the country's legal offi-cials to re-open the case, we reveal today.
Published: 04:43, Sun, October 27, 2013
The detectives, who have been reviewing the case files for two years, went to Praia da Luz on the Algarve a month ago to pursue secret inquiries.
They spent hours walking around the Ocean Club working out where certain people were seen at particular times and at Apartment 5a, from where threeyear-old Madeleine went missing on May 3, 2007.
The exercise was the culmination of months of work by four Portuguese detectives based in Porto in the north of the country, who are directly working for the highly respected senior officer Helen Monteiro, an expert on abduction cases.
It is thought her elite team of dedicated officers has recently been concentrating on statements from witnesses who say they saw unknown people acting suspiciously in the resort around the time the child was missed. The work in Luz came before Scotland Yard released photofits of potential suspects on the BBC's Crimewatch show this month.
Ms Monteiro has insisted all her officers work in absolute secrecy to prevent leaks of their inquiries. It was decided officers in Porto should conduct the review as none had any direct involvement in the first Madeleine McCann investigation and would therefore approach the case with fresh eyes and open minds.
In Portugal, Ms Monteiro is seen as the driving force finally to get the Madeleine case files re-opened after five years, rather than through the efforts of Scotland Yard. She and her team are working separately from the Yard, although there is close liaison between the two.
Yesterday Portuguese Justice Minister Paula Teixeira da Cruz said the decision to reopen the case, taken last week, was due to the work of the Policia Judiciaria and not because of pressure from Scotland Yard. She said: "The PJ developed diligences that allowed for this process to be reopened. Often there are almost perfect crimes and not all of them are discovered all over the world. If the PJ requested the reopening, it has good motives to do so."
Portuguese law officials and senior officers in the PJ have been acutely aware of criticism of the initial police investigation and insist they are determined to solve the case.
Ms Teixeira da Cruz urged people to be "proud" of the work being done by the PJ, which she insisted had not been idle in seeking to solve the mystery.
For a time Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were seen as arguidos or suspects but that status was lifted. Now they are being kept fully informed of all developments and were given a personal briefing of the work of the PJ in Lisbon last week.
The McCann's Portuguese lawyer, Rogerio Alves, is reportedly seeking for his clients to be "assistants" in the case. This would allow their lawyer to work closely with state prosecutors. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/439464/Portuguese-police-held-their-own-Madeleine-McCann-reconstruction
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 03:36:52 PM
Portuguese police held their own Madeleine McCann reconstruction
A RECONSTRUCTION by Portuguese detectives of key events on the day Madeleine McCann went missing has helped persuade the country's legal offi-cials to re-open the case, we reveal today.
Published: 04:43, Sun, October 27, 2013
The detectives, who have been reviewing the case files for two years, went to Praia da Luz on the Algarve a month ago to pursue secret inquiries.
They spent hours walking around the Ocean Club working out where certain people were seen at particular times and at Apartment 5a, from where threeyear-old Madeleine went missing on May 3, 2007.
The exercise was the culmination of months of work by four Portuguese detectives based in Porto in the north of the country, who are directly working for the highly respected senior officer Helen Monteiro, an expert on abduction cases.
It is thought her elite team of dedicated officers has recently been concentrating on statements from witnesses who say they saw unknown people acting suspiciously in the resort around the time the child was missed. The work in Luz came before Scotland Yard released photofits of potential suspects on the BBC's Crimewatch show this month.
Ms Monteiro has insisted all her officers work in absolute secrecy to prevent leaks of their inquiries. It was decided officers in Porto should conduct the review as none had any direct involvement in the first Madeleine McCann investigation and would therefore approach the case with fresh eyes and open minds.
In Portugal, Ms Monteiro is seen as the driving force finally to get the Madeleine case files re-opened after five years, rather than through the efforts of Scotland Yard. She and her team are working separately from the Yard, although there is close liaison between the two.
Yesterday Portuguese Justice Minister Paula Teixeira da Cruz said the decision to reopen the case, taken last week, was due to the work of the Policia Judiciaria and not because of pressure from Scotland Yard. She said: "The PJ developed diligences that allowed for this process to be reopened. Often there are almost perfect crimes and not all of them are discovered all over the world. If the PJ requested the reopening, it has good motives to do so."
Portuguese law officials and senior officers in the PJ have been acutely aware of criticism of the initial police investigation and insist they are determined to solve the case.
Ms Teixeira da Cruz urged people to be "proud" of the work being done by the PJ, which she insisted had not been idle in seeking to solve the mystery.
For a time Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, were seen as arguidos or suspects but that status was lifted. Now they are being kept fully informed of all developments and were given a personal briefing of the work of the PJ in Lisbon last week.
The McCann's Portuguese lawyer, Rogerio Alves, is reportedly seeking for his clients to be "assistants" in the case. This would allow their lawyer to work closely with state prosecutors. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/439464/Portuguese-police-held-their-own-Madeleine-McCann-reconstruction
Three problems with your cite.
It's the Express.
No mention of cooperation with SY.
Oh and it's the Express !
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 03:54:22 PM
If you care to diss discuss the relevance or not of parts of a particular post do feel free(dom of speech and all that) to do just that. Rhetorical questions are fine ... but there seems to be a bit of a trend in asking them.
For future reference and for your information ... if I go to the bother of posting it by definition I believe it is relevant ... if you think otherwise ... do discuss.
For example ... I think it is entirely relevant to point out that of late there is an apparent concerted effort by one or two posters to disrupt this forum ... whether that is by accident or design is all a matter of opinion.
That is not answering the question I asked. It may be relevant in your opinion but my question was "is it relevant"? A reasonable enough question I would have thought. Who do you believe is trying to disrupt this forum? have you complained to Admin about it? Or is it a case of one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 28, 2015, 04:11:05 PM
But isn't that the whole point Alfredo? The reconstruction involving the original participants was a necessary exercise to establish who was lying through their teeth.
Could you give an example of what could happen during a recon which would prove that someone was lying through their teeth please? I can't think of anything.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 04:11:36 PM
Which is what I said earlier - the reconstruction was nothing about looking for a child and everything about trying to prove a thesis. What if no one was lying, have you ever considered that? I know it's hard for you to do so, but do try.
It was about investigating a possible crime but those persons asked to attend decided it wouldn't take place with their help. In my book that is both suspicious and sinister and that is why so many people don't believe them. Their sad excuses for not going back to Luz are pitiful to say the least, I do hope they have a conscience.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: misty on January 28, 2015, 04:21:42 PM
It was about investigating a possible crime but those persons asked to attend decided it wouldn't take place with their help. In my book that is both suspicious and sinister and that is why so many people don't believe them. Their sad excuses for not going back to Luz are pitiful to say the least, I do hope they have a conscience.
ROB & JT were both absent from the dining table for longer than it took to perform cursory child checks. JT remained in her apartment after the alarm was raised. In the light of the allegations made against their friends, Kate & Gerry, whose movements were witnessed between 8.30 & 10pm, would anyone seriously have gone back to participate in a reconstitution which the PJ could have then used to "develop evidence" against them?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 04:26:10 PM
ROB & JT were both absent from the dining table for longer than it took to perform cursory child checks. JT remained in her apartment after the alarm was raised. In the light of the allegations made against their friends, Kate & Gerry, whose movements were witnessed between 8.30 & 10pm, would anyone seriously have gone back to participate in a reconstitution which the PJ could have then used to "develop evidence" against them?
Why yes certainly. It is normal to suspect the parents in this sort of case and especially so when the evidence being accumulated pointed to something other than an abduction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 04:35:40 PM
It is also normal to want to assist the police in their enquiries. I suspect that in UK, they would not be able to refuse such a request from the police.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 04:36:53 PM
It was about investigating a possible crime but those persons asked to attend decided it wouldn't take place with their help. In my book that is both suspicious and sinister and that is why so many people don't believe them. Their sad excuses for not going back to Luz are pitiful to say the least, I do hope they have a conscience.
Please list the McCanns' sad excuses for not going back then, together with cites.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 04:37:46 PM
It is also normal to want to assist the police in their enquiries. I suspect that in UK, they would not be able to refuse such a request from the police.
Is it normal in the UK to try to get suspects to incriminate themselves by asking them to take part in a reconstruction of their alleged crimes?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 04:39:28 PM
None of the people in question were suspects.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2015, 04:47:27 PM
Oh look they are trying to run and take charge of the investigation themselves.
Do either of these clips contain the McCanns' excuses for not taking part in the reconstruction? If so, please point out the time references in each and I will watch them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 04:53:55 PM
Do either of these clips contain the McCanns' excuses for not taking part in the reconstruction? If so, please point out the time references in each and I will watch them.
They never said Yes did they? No they were trying to take charge as usual "if we feel it's beneficial" No Kate if the detectives think it beneficial. It's not all about you but your missing daughter!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 05:04:47 PM
They never said Yes did they? No they were trying to take charge as usual "if we feel it's beneficial" No Kate if the detectives think it beneficial. It's not all about you but your missing daughter!
Some sad excuses for not attending the reconstruction please.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
Please list the McCanns' sad excuses for not going back then, together with cites.
You know very well as I do that the McCanns have avoided going on record to say they would not take part. They knew that if their friends reneged then they would not be required to go either. Nobody is fooled by this Alfred.
If the McCanns really wanted a reconstruction they could have got one.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 05:08:21 PM
You know very well as I do that the McCanns have avoided going on record to say they would not take part. They knew that if their friends reneged then they would not be required to go either. Nobody is fooled by this Alfred.
If the McCanns really wanted a reconstruction they could have got one.
No sad excuses from the McCanns then. Let's have some accuracy in your posts for a change please. You should be setting a good example!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2015, 05:09:43 PM
Wow, that's a new one on me - the McCanns were never the PJ's chief suspects. I've just stepped into an alternative reality I think..
They were never called that.
That aside why should a friend's status with the police affect a persons willingness to cooperate with the police. I can understand close family providing false alibis and being generally obstructive, but friends?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 05:11:31 PM
It was about investigating a possible crime but those persons asked to attend decided it wouldn't take place with their help. In my book that is both suspicious and sinister and that is why so many people don't believe them. Their sad excuses for not going back to Luz are pitiful to say the least, I do hope they have a conscience.
Now that we have established that the McCanns did not make any sad excuses for not attending the reconstruction, that leaves the Tapas 7 and Jez Wilkins who did make "sad" (in your view) excuses. Now, according to you this is sinister and suspicious behaviour. Does that mean you believe all these people have something to hide?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 05:12:56 PM
That aside why should a friend's status with the police affect a persons willingness to cooperate with the police. I can understand close family providing false alibis and being generally obstructive, but friends?
You read it here first - the McCanns were never suspects!!!
Why do you simply refuse to accept the McCanns' friends' and Jez Wilkins explanations for not wishing to take part in the reconstruction? Is it because you also believe they are hiding something?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 05:15:16 PM
Now that we have established that the McCanns did not make any sad excuses for not attending the reconstruction, that leaves the Tapas 7 and Jez Wilkins who did make "sad" (in your view) excuses. Now, according to you this is sinister and suspicious behaviour. Does that mean you believe all these people have something to hide?
You misquote me as usual. I said those who had been "asked to attend" made sad excuses!!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 05:19:29 PM
You read it here first - the McCanns were never suspects!!!
Why do you simply refuse to accept the McCanns' friends' and Jez Wilkins explanations for not wishing to take part in the reconstruction? Is it because you also believe they are hiding something?
I don't intend to answer that.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 28, 2015, 05:22:40 PM
No sad excuses from the McCanns then. Let's have some accuracy in your posts for a change please. You should be setting a good example!
They didn't need to say anything on the record. Mitchell did it for them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2015, 05:23:00 PM
"Jes returned to our apartment just before 9.30pm." (BO)
It doesn't take long from Gerry for JW to get back to his apartment so you can say he was talking to Gerry as late as 9:15. Gerry was gone a good 10 minutes before he met Jez. Now a reconstruction would want to know what he was doing in those 10 minutes. Having his proud father moment and taking a pee doesn't take long. &%+((£
It's not like you would want to go back if you can't explain what you were doing in that time away from the table. Maybe he forgot about watching the football as Kate thought.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2015, 05:28:21 PM
Has anyone, apart from two sorts of fuzz, gone through the two timelines presented by T9 and all the witness statements to check whether someone was in two places at the same time?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 05:31:44 PM
Let's face it, the McCanns cried wolf to all and sundry but when the investigation stalled for lack of credible evidence and turned its attention to them, they bailed. All promises made to Maddie thrown to the wind.
Self preservation takes many forms in real life.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 05:35:05 PM
Let's face it, the McCanns cried wolf to all and sundry but when the investigation stalled for lack of credible evidence and turned its attention to them, they bailed. All promises made to Maddie thrown to the wind.
Self preservation takes many forms in real life.
I find your (and your fellow "sceptics") lack of understanding in this matter truly staggering.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2015, 05:39:24 PM
Let's face it, the McCanns cried wolf to all and sundry but when the investigation stalled for lack of credible evidence and turned its attention to them, they bailed. All promises made to Maddie thrown to the wind.
Self preservation takes many forms in real life.
Many on here disagree and think the McCanns did the right thing
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 05:43:57 PM
It was about investigating a possible crime but those persons asked to attend decided it wouldn't take place with their help. In my book that is both suspicious and sinister and that is why so many people don't believe them. Their sad excuses for not going back to Luz are pitiful to say the least, I do hope they have a conscience.
Anyone who can't understand the complete lack of trust the group would have in the PJ and the Portuguese justice system has no ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes IMO.
Having watched the attempts being made by police officers in a foreign country to pin a terrible crime on your friends who you KNEW were innocent - and witnessed the poisonous smear campaign waged against them by the PT press - which you KNEW was emanating from the PJ - would you be keen to do go back to that country if summoned - where you had already been described as a bunch of 'swingers' in the media - unless you were absolutely certain of their motives? I certainly wouldn't.
Finding out that the lead investigator who had been appointed to the case - was not only an Arguido himself - but was made one in relation to the torture of a defenceless woman in his previous missing child case - would be enough to make me wonder what sort of judicial system was operating in that country in the first place - to let that happen. The fact that his 2nd in command also turned out to be an arguido in another torture case would have been even more shocking IMO.
The group were not sure of their motives -and as long as there was even a hint of a suspicion that this Recon was a last attempt to implicate the parents, and maybe themselves - then no-one in their right mind would have agreed to go IMO..
As it happened - IMO the PJ made it easy for them by stipulating that unless everyone agreed to go - it wouldn't happen, so once Jez said NO - then IMO the PJ had got what they wanted and were mighty relieved. At least they now wouldn't be faced with the following:
PJ to Jez. ''We'd like you to set off at the same time you set off a year ago''.
Jez to PJ - '' But I'm not certain what time I set off - I can only take an approximate guess at it. If I get it wrong and Gerry is still in 5a when I go up that road and so we don't meet as we did that night - what do I do then? Do we start again and I set off at a different time - or what?''
PJ to Jez........................................................ Errm.
The only thing a recon would have proved is that it is not humanly possible for 10 people to meticulously and accurately recreate all their movements - exactly and precisely at the identical times they had carried them out - between the hours of 5.30 and 11p.m. - on a day over 12 months prior. It's just not possible.
I'm sure the PJ were intelligent enough to realise that.
AIMHO
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2015, 05:51:49 PM
Anyone who can't understand the complete lack of trust the group would have in the PJ and the Portuguese justice system has no ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes IMO.
Having watched the attempts being made by police officers in a foreign country to pin a terrible crime on your friends who you KNEW were innocent - and witnessed the poisonous smear campaign waged against them by the PT press - which you KNEW was emanating from the PJ - would you be keen to do go back to that country if summoned - where you had already been described as a bunch of 'swingers' in the media - unless you were absolutely certain of their motives? I certainly wouldn't.
Finding out that the lead investigator who had been appointed to the case - was not only an Arguido himself - but was made one in relation to the torture of a defenceless woman in his previous missing child case - would be enough to make me wonder what sort of judicial system was operating in that country in the first place - to let that happen. The fact that his 2nd in command also turned out to be an arguido in another torture case would have been even more shocking IMO.
The group were not sure of their motives -and as long as there was even a hint of a suspicion that this Recon was a last attempt to implicate the parents, and maybe themselves - then no-one in their right mind would have agreed to go IMO..
As it happened - IMO the PJ made it easy for them by stipulating that unless everyone agreed to go - it wouldn't happen, so once Jez said NO - then IMO the PJ had got what they wanted and were mighty relieved. At least they now wouldn't be faced with the following:
PJ to Jez. ''We'd like you to set off at the same time you set off a year ago''.
Jez to PJ - '' But I'm not certain what time I set off - I can only take an approximate guess at it. If I get it wrong and Gerry is still in 5a when I go up that road and so we don't meet as we did that night - what do I do then? Do we start again and I set off at a different time - or what?''
PJ to Jez........................................................ Errm.
The only thing a recon would have proved is that it is not humanly possible for 10 people to meticulously and accurately recreate all their movements - exactly and precisely at the identical times they had carried them out - between the hours of 5.30 and 11p.m. - on a day over 12 months prior. It's just not possible.
I'm sure the PJ were intelligent enough to realise that.
AIMHO
and whose fault is all this ???
Tough question, isn't it. 8)--))
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 05:58:10 PM
@)(++(* I'm with you on that one, and certainly never to a place like O/C appeared to be.
The resort wasn't the problem, they provided every facility but unfortunately two doctors thought they knew better and ended up losing a daughter. That is the reality whichever way you attempt to spin it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 06:19:14 PM
You know very well as I do that the McCanns have avoided going on record to say they would not take part. They knew that if their friends reneged then they would not be required to go either. Nobody is fooled by this Alfred.
If the McCanns really wanted a reconstruction they could have got one.
Public Ministry of Portimao Case Section Case 201/07 GALGS
Dear Sir Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
The Drs McCann are on record as being available to attend a reconstruction.
Unfortunately, when they really wanted one ... shortly after Madeleine disappeared ... it was refused. Dr amaral mentioned something about closing the air space in his book I think.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 06:33:58 PM
Saying one thing and doing the opposite appears to be a common trait.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 28, 2015, 06:40:46 PM
Public Ministry of Portimao Case Section Case 201/07 GALGS
Dear Sir Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
The Drs McCann are on record as being available to attend a reconstruction.
Unfortunately, when they really wanted one ... shortly after Madeleine disappeared ... it was refused. Dr amaral mentioned something about closing the air space in his book I think.
and you know full well, why the reconstruction didn't take place then.
Since then,
NO EXCUSES.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2015, 06:45:03 PM
Anyone who can't understand the complete lack of trust the group would have in the PJ and the Portuguese justice system has no ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes IMO.
Having watched the attempts being made by police officers in a foreign country to pin a terrible crime on your friends who you KNEW were innocent - and witnessed the poisonous smear campaign waged against them by the PT press - which you KNEW was emanating from the PJ - would you be keen to do go back to that country if summoned - where you had already been described as a bunch of 'swingers' in the media - unless you were absolutely certain of their motives? I certainly wouldn't.
Finding out that the lead investigator who had been appointed to the case - was not only an Arguido himself - but was made one in relation to the torture of a defenceless woman in his previous missing child case - would be enough to make me wonder what sort of judicial system was operating in that country in the first place - to let that happen. The fact that his 2nd in command also turned out to be an arguido in another torture case would have been even more shocking IMO.
The group were not sure of their motives -and as long as there was even a hint of a suspicion that this Recon was a last attempt to implicate the parents, and maybe themselves - then no-one in their right mind would have agreed to go IMO..
As it happened - IMO the PJ made it easy for them by stipulating that unless everyone agreed to go - it wouldn't happen, so once Jez said NO - then IMO the PJ had got what they wanted and were mighty relieved. At least they now wouldn't be faced with the following:
PJ to Jez. ''We'd like you to set off at the same time you set off a year ago''.
Jez to PJ - '' But I'm not certain what time I set off - I can only take an approximate guess at it. If I get it wrong and Gerry is still in 5a when I go up that road and so we don't meet as we did that night - what do I do then? Do we start again and I set off at a different time - or what?''
PJ to Jez........................................................ Errm.
The only thing a recon would have proved is that it is not humanly possible for 10 people to meticulously and accurately recreate all their movements - exactly and precisely at the identical times they had carried them out - between the hours of 5.30 and 11p.m. - on a day over 12 months prior. It's just not possible.
I'm sure the PJ were intelligent enough to realise that.
AIMHO
Absolutely ... and my reading of the correspondence indicates that it was intended to carry out the reconstruction to replicate what happened in one night in "real time".
I think it would have turned into a farce if it had happened. People are not tape recorders with a rewind button, it could not have happened particularly if the participants were unsure of times to begin with.
**snip
The purpose is to gather all the participants - the arguidos Gerald McCann and Kate Healy, the witnesses who were having dinner at the Tapas Restaurant on 3rd May 2007, and who took turns to check on their children who were sleeping in the respective apartments, as well as another witness who spoke with the arguido Gerald-, who will perform what they did on the abovementioned date, as accurately as they recall, so that what is in their written statements can be confirmed. This will allow conclusions to be drawn on how things happened on site, thus making adjustments that will allow the investigation to determine the need for any supplemental procedure.
Page 4304 (Page 2 of 3)
The re-enactment that shall have the participation of the abovementioned group of people, as well as of any character whose figurative presence might be necessary to the visualization of the events, shall take place on 15th May, between 5.30 p.m. and 11.00 p.m. On 16th May all the procedure shall be formalized, according to what had already been settled for this date and considering that all the participants meant to be present have already been informed accordingly. This cannot be subject to any change due to the time and place where the procedure shall take place.
The re-enactment will be performed at the space of the abovementioned Restaurant, Block of Apartments where the facts occurred on that date, and in the surrounding area, and it will be carried out by the Policia Judiciaria, with the respective video recording and with the cooperation of the Police Authorities required by the PJ. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
I imagine this would have been a very stressful episode for all concerned had it taken place; I wonder if any thought at all had been given to the possibility of the complete physical and nervous collapse of a woman or of a man participating in a re-enactment of events and location of the life changing night when their daughter vanished.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 28, 2015, 06:56:12 PM
Absolutely ... and my reading of the correspondence indicates that it was intended to carry out the reconstruction to replicate what happened in one night in "real time".
I think it would have turned into a farce if it had happened. People are not tape recorders with a rewind button, it could not have happened particularly if the participants were unsure of times to begin with.
**snip
The purpose is to gather all the participants - the arguidos Gerald McCann and Kate Healy, the witnesses who were having dinner at the Tapas Restaurant on 3rd May 2007, and who took turns to check on their children who were sleeping in the respective apartments, as well as another witness who spoke with the arguido Gerald-, who will perform what they did on the abovementioned date, as accurately as they recall, so that what is in their written statements can be confirmed. This will allow conclusions to be drawn on how things happened on site, thus making adjustments that will allow the investigation to determine the need for any supplemental procedure.
Page 4304 (Page 2 of 3)
The re-enactment that shall have the participation of the abovementioned group of people, as well as of any character whose figurative presence might be necessary to the visualization of the events, shall take place on 15th May, between 5.30 p.m. and 11.00 p.m. On 16th May all the procedure shall be formalized, according to what had already been settled for this date and considering that all the participants meant to be present have already been informed accordingly. This cannot be subject to any change due to the time and place where the procedure shall take place.
The re-enactment will be performed at the space of the abovementioned Restaurant, Block of Apartments where the facts occurred on that date, and in the surrounding area, and it will be carried out by the Policia Judiciaria, with the respective video recording and with the cooperation of the Police Authorities required by the PJ. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
I imagine this would have been a very stressful episode for all concerned had it taken place; I wonder if any thought at all had been given to the possibility of the complete physical and nervous collapse of a woman or of a man participating in a re-enactment of events and location of the life changing night when their daughter vanished.
............which the mccanns are responsible for.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 06:58:37 PM
Absolutely ... and my reading of the correspondence indicates that it was intended to carry out the reconstruction to replicate what happened in one night in "real time".
I think it would have turned into a farce if it had happened. People are not tape recorders with a rewind button, it could not have happened particularly if the participants were unsure of times to begin with.
Purely a cop-out. Reconstructions take place regularly in missing child cases all over the globe and are an extremely useful tool for investigators. What is unique about this case is the ultimate refusal by crucial English witnesses to take part. Maddie would appear to have been their last concern!
Had they tried that stunt in an English missing child enquiry they would have been hauled in and charged with obstruction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 28, 2015, 06:59:11 PM
Purely a cop-out. Reconstructions take place regularly in missing child cases all over the globe and are an extremely useful tool for investigators. What is unique about this case is the ultimate refusal by crucial English witnesses to take part. Maddie appears to be their last concern!
Yes, I'm surprised that any of their friends refused in view of the McCanns obvious enthusiasm for the reconstruction to take place.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2015, 07:03:06 PM
I imagine this would have been a very stressful episode for all concerned had it taken place; I wonder if any thought at all had been given to the possibility of the complete physical and nervous collapse of a woman or of a man participating in a re-enactment of events and location of the life changing night when their daughter vanished.
You really aren't doing them a service by making excuses on their behalf, so many years later.
The world was told their daughter was kidnapped/abducted by who knows who, and possibly still alive but in who knows what conditions. Yet in April and May 2008 the world saw there was no interest at all in maintaining good relations with the only police looking for her. That's what it was about: cooperation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2015, 07:11:14 PM
The McCanns must have been very dismayed -gutted even ( in the modern idiom). It was, after all, their child that was missing, and they wanted no stone left unturned in the search for her.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 07:18:28 PM
Well if they'd gone back in 2008 they could have asked the police/judiciary themselves couldn't they. That's the point.
Remember No Stone Unturned?
Just as I said previously, promise one thing but do the opposite. We could do a list.
Promise to stay until Maddie is found. Don't stay and hardly ever return. Fail.
Promise to search for Maddie. Never search for her. Fail.
Promise to take part in reconstruction. Reconstruction never took place. Fail.
Promise total transparency in Fund. Accounting very basic. Fail.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on January 28, 2015, 07:26:20 PM
I wonder if some of you are being dishonest when you ask how could the reconstruction of helped Madeliene? Firstly it could have assisted the investigation to refocus, which would have been huge had they been able to satisfy the PJ that McCanns plus tapas were not involved(how can any of you even be sure when we discount the parents that this was not the work of someone Madeliene knew?). Secondly, it would enable them to sharpen up the timeline and there is even a possibility it could have prompted someone to remember a seemingly inconsequential important detail.
I can understand the argument why the tapas 7 and Jes did not wish to attend, but of course you also have to understand how this is likely to be perceived, which is also a completely valid argument given the facts presented here imo...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2015, 07:29:34 PM
I'm sure the PJ would have been more than happy to work with people who were fluent both in English and Portuguese. Why shouldn't they be?
I notice that they seem to have no problem communicating with SY
But don't you think it might have added to the chaos somewhat.
Pedro, tell The McCanns to do this. Pedro tells The McCanns. The McCanns say they can't because... Pedro tells The PJ that the McCanns can't because...... The PJ says okay, well do this.......
If you see what I mean.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 07:33:08 PM
No, I see no problem and it would just as likely to be Hugo as Pedro @)(++(*
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2015, 07:41:49 PM
No, I see no problem and it would just as likely to be Hugo as Pedro @)(++(*
Or Goncalo I suppose. Then they be in real trouble. Our Goncalo would have to be there, Coordinating, because he was The Coordinator, and the only one who knew what really went on.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 28, 2015, 07:42:39 PM
I wonder if some of you are being dishonest when you ask how could the reconstruction of helped Madeliene? Firstly it could have assisted the investigation to refocus, which would have been huge had they been able to satisfy the PJ that McCanns plus tapas were not involved(how can any of you even be sure when we discount the parents that this was not the work of someone Madeliene knew?). Secondly, it would enable them to sharpen up the timeline and there is even a possibility it could have prompted someone to remember a seemingly inconsequential important detail.
I can understand the argument why the tapas 7 and Jes did not wish to attend, but of course you also have to understand how this is likely to be perceived, which is also a completely valid argument given the facts presented here imo...
8((()*/ Good points.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 07:44:33 PM
Or Goncalo I suppose. Then they be in real trouble. Our Goncalo would have to be there, Coordinating, because he was The Coordinator, and the only one who knew what really went on.
More likel to be a Hugo. I see him as a suave Portuguese-speaking Foreign Office type, brought in to ensure that everything went smoothly
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 07:45:37 PM
I wonder if some of you are being dishonest when you ask how could the reconstruction of helped Madeliene? Firstly it could have assisted the investigation to refocus, which would have been huge had they been able to satisfy the PJ that McCanns plus tapas were not involved(how can any of you even be sure when we discount the parents that this was not the work of someone Madeliene knew?). Secondly, it would enable them to sharpen up the timeline and there is even a possibility it could have prompted someone to remember a seemingly inconsequential important detail.
I can understand the argument why the tapas 7 and Jes did not wish to attend, but of course you also have to understand how this is likely to be perceived, which is also a completely valid argument given the facts presented here imo...
Once again I ask - how would a reconstruction have possibly demonstrated the McCanns' innocence? Just one "for instance" will do.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 28, 2015, 07:48:21 PM
Once again I ask - how would a reconstruction have possibly demonstrated the McCanns' innocence? Just one "for instance" will do.
I can see why you are hung up on this , but why should any reconstruction be aimed to demonstrating the McCanns innocence? The purpose was to find out what happened to Madeleine. Or more precisely the circumstance that led to Madeleine's disappearance.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 28, 2015, 07:48:46 PM
LOL at urgency. A reconstruction 12 months after the event designed purely to test the McCanns' story was not ever going to demonstrate their innocence or find the missing child. I can see that, the McCanns and their friends INCLUDING Jez Wilkins could see that, why on earth are you and your fellow "sceptics" unable to?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 07:52:59 PM
I can see why you are hung up on this , but why should any reconstruction be aimed to demonstrating the McCanns innocence? The purpose was to find out what happened to Madeleine. Or more precisely the circumstance that led to Madeleine's disappearance.
OK - please explain how a reconstruction of the movement of 10 people, none of whom have an inkling as to what happened to Madeleine, would help to find her?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on January 28, 2015, 07:56:51 PM
Once again I ask - how would a reconstruction have possibly demonstrated the McCanns' innocence? Just one "for instance" will do.
Well it would have been a process of small steps I imagine if you consider the investigation post Amaral was of an open mind or would reconsider their theories should evidence arise to the contrary. This could have been one of those steps perhaps. For example they run through the timeline and everything checks out - it would force the investigation to reconsider somewhat. Besides the real question should be how will this reconstruction help the search for Madeliene? Which is obviously linked to your question if the McCanns plus tapas 7 are completely innocent.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 07:57:21 PM
OK - please explain how a reconstruction of the movement of 10 people, none of whom have an inkling as to what happened to Madeleine, would help to find her?
The clue is perhaps in my last sentence.
By having the players on site, they would have been able to advise and comment on exactly where they were at certain times ( and demonstrate by going through the motions). Had they been absent, errors would have been less obvious as there would only have been written statements to go on - and we know how unreliable these can be, particularly in translation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 28, 2015, 07:57:35 PM
LOL at urgency. A reconstruction 12 months after the event designed purely to test the McCanns' story was not ever going to demonstrate their innocence or find the missing child. I can see that, the McCanns and their friends INCLUDING Jez Wilkins could see that, why on earth are you and your fellow "sceptics" unable to?
So you refuse to go back and thereby end the only investigation looking for the young girl who may be being held in indescribably awful conditions?
Spin it whichever way you want - and I know you will - but Madeleine's parents have a very poor record.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 08:01:09 PM
By having the players on site, they would have been able to advise and comment on exactly where they were at certain times ( and demonstrate by going through the motions). Had they been absent, errors would have been less obvious as there would only have been written statements to go on - and we know how unreliable these can be, particularly in translation.
And how would any of the above help find the perpetrator(s) who took Madeleine?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on January 28, 2015, 08:03:51 PM
It was ti advance the investigation by checking and confirming the limited information available. Standard investigative practice, I imagine.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 28, 2015, 08:08:08 PM
OK - please explain how a reconstruction of the movement of 10 people, none of whom have an inkling as to what happened to Madeleine, would help to find her?
And you know this how Alfie?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 08:10:04 PM
Sigh. round and round we go. Was the reconstruction about finding a child or an attempt to provide evidence to support the PJ's thesis? I say the latter, some here say the former. Which do you say?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 28, 2015, 08:15:53 PM
And how would any of the above help find the perpetrator(s) who took Madeleine?
We will never know now because of the way it was torpedoed. The whole point of a reconstitution is to retrace the movements of witnesses and others in an attempt to recreate the events on that fateful evening. A reconstruction will reveal if someone is missing or if someone is not where they said they were at the requisite time.
As already pointed out, reconstructions are common practice within all police forces. What isn't common practice however is for witnesses to refuse to cooperate.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 28, 2015, 08:17:25 PM
Sigh. round and round we go. Was the reconstruction about finding a child or an attempt to provide evidence to support the PJ's thesis? I say the latter, some here say the former. Which do you say?
I ask again, how do you know none of the 10 people had an inkling?
To answer your question, the recon was about discovering what happened to Madeleine and regardless of where that journey took them, the police had a moral duty to pursue it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 08:22:50 PM
We will never know now because of the way it was torpedoed. The whole point of a reconstitution is to retrace the movements of witnesses and others in an attempt to recreate the events on that fateful evening. A reconstruction will reveal if someone is missing or if someone is not where they said they were at the requisite time.
As already pointed out, reconstructions are common practice within all police forces. What isn't common practice however is for witnesses to refuse to cooperate.
What others were invited to take part in this reconstruction??
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 08:33:48 PM
I ask again, how do you know none of the 10 people had an inkling?
To answer your question, the recon was about discovering what happened to Madeleine and regardless of where that journey took them, the police had a moral duty to pursue it.
OK - I'm going to try once more. If the reconstruction was about trying to find Madeleine it would have failed especially if all of those taking part had no idea what had happened and all that was being re-enacted were the movements of a bunch of innocent people coming and going. Even if some of the participants HAD known what had happened, the reconstruction isn't suddenly going to go left-field with one of them re-enacting hiding a child's corpse along the way (I wouldn't have thought).
If the reconstruction was about trying to find evidence of wrong-doing by one or more of the group it would have failed also, because how would the police be able to state categorically that any glaring inconsistencies in the timeline re-enactment were not simply down to honest human memory failure? A reconstruction of the movements of these people as per their witness statements isn't suddenly going to shed light on the identity of Smithman is it? Or show Madeleine falling off a sofa, in a Calpol induced haze fgs.
The McCanns friends would almost certainly have come to the conclusions that I have come to above and therefore questioned the validity of the whole exercise. They would have seen it for what it was - a last ditch attempt to try and scrape together a case against the arguidos and on that basis who can blame them for not wanting to take part. If any of them genuinely thought a reconstruction would have helped Madeleine I've no doubt they would have been there in an instant.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: lordpookles on January 28, 2015, 08:47:59 PM
Interesting points Alfred. Many points up for debate obviously - though I'd like to know do you truly believe the investigation at that point was only about pursuing the McCanns and the Tapas 7? There could be no way even with dogged cooperation of the parents and others they could have influenced the investigation to pursue alternatives?
So if that is the case what has changed in the intervening years that now the PJ do not consider the McCanns suspects or at least they say that is the case I believe? Something changed behind the scenes perhaps that has altered their thinking?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 28, 2015, 08:49:43 PM
OK - I'm going to try once more. If the reconstruction was about trying to find Madeleine it would have failed especially if all of those taking part had no idea what had happened and all that was being re-enacted were the movements of a bunch of innocent people coming and going. Even if some of the participants HAD known what had happened, the reconstruction isn't suddenly going to go left-field with one of them re-enacting hiding a child's corpse along the way (I wouldn't have thought).
If the reconstruction was about trying to find evidence of wrong-doing by one or more of the group it would have failed also, because how would the police be able to state categorically that any glaring inconsistencies in the timeline re-enactment were not simply down to honest human memory failure? A reconstruction of the movements of these people as per their witness statements isn't suddenly going to shed light on the identity of Smithman is it? Or show Madeleine falling off a sofa, in a Calpol induced haze fgs.
The McCanns friends would almost certainly have come to the conclusions that I have come to above and therefore questioned the validity of the whole exercise. They would have seen it for what it was - a last ditch attempt to try and scrape together a case against the arguidos and on that basis who can blame them for not wanting to take part. If any of them genuinely thought a reconstruction would have helped Madeleine I've no doubt they would have been there in an instant.
That was quick!
Fair points but not the whole story. There were a lot more people involved in the reconstitutions, including other guests, staff including the night creche staff, parents who used the night creche and other witnesses who were in the town that night. This exercise was not limited to the tapas-9 but they were the principal players. By refusing to take part they effectively destroyed any legitimacy the rest of reconstruction could have achieved. Their refusal had very far reaching consequences for the investigation.
I honestly believe that those who refused to assist in this case were very badly advised. They will have to live with that decision for a very long time.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 09:17:28 PM
Fair points but not the whole story. There were a lot more people involved in the reconstitutions, including other guests, staff including the night creche staff, parents who used the night creche and other witnesses who were in the town that night. This exercise was not limited to the tapas-9 but they were the principal players. By refusing to take part they effectively destroyed any legitimacy the rest of reconstruction could have achieved. Their refusal had very far reaching consequences for the investigation.
I honestly believe that those who refused to assist in this case were very badly advised. They will have to live with that decision for a very long time.
Who else apart from the Tapas Group and Jez Wilkins was asked (and agreed) to take part then?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 09:22:17 PM
Interesting points Alfred. Many points up for debate obviously - though I'd like to know do you truly believe the investigation at that point was only about pursuing the McCanns and the Tapas 7? There could be no way even with dogged cooperation of the parents and others they could have influenced the investigation to pursue alternatives?
So if that is the case what has changed in the intervening years that now the PJ do not consider the McCanns suspects or at least they say that is the case I believe? Something changed behind the scenes perhaps that has altered their thinking?
I can't say what has changed their perspective. Maybe they just went back to the beginning and approached all the evidence again with a more open-minded approach. I do believe at the point of the proposed reconstruction that the investigation had more or less run out of steam and the reconstruction was purely designed to test the McCanns and their friends and nothing about trying to find Madeleine.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on January 28, 2015, 09:56:10 PM
Who else apart from the Tapas Group and Jez Wilkins was asked (and agreed) to take part then?
Although central to events, the case is much more than the tapas-9 plus one. The whole point of the exercise would have been to verify statements and create an accurate picture of who was where and when.
I know some think that that could not be achieved but in reality when people are taken back to the scene of events it is remarkable what little details come to them. Participants in a reconstruction will be conferring and comparing notes and that in itself helps memory recall. A reconstitution is an excellent method for achieving agreement as to events and their timing.
I do believe at the point of the proposed reconstruction that the investigation had more or less run out of steam and the reconstruction was purely designed to test the McCanns and their friends and nothing about trying to find Madeleine.
It would have stalled certainly if the abduction theory was going nowhere and now, nearly eight years on, it's still going nowhere.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carew on January 28, 2015, 10:21:29 PM
Dashed bad form, too............some of them calling themselves Dr...........Unlike the real genuine Drs. McCann
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 11:01:40 PM
I can't say what has changed their perspective. Maybe they just went back to the beginning and approached all the evidence again with a more open-minded approach. I do believe at the point of the proposed reconstruction that the investigation had more or less run out of steam and the reconstruction was purely designed to test the McCanns and their friends and nothing about trying to find Madeleine.
And why would it be wrong to test the McCanns ?
We could see from the McCanns own reconstruction that Gerry knew he was on shaky ground with the whole' which side of the road' conundrum. He knew that it would have been impossible for Tanner to pass Jez and him on the same pavement without being seen. A proper reconstruction would certainly have shown that and with both Jez and Tanner's statements conferring there would have been absolutely no chance of Gerry putting himself on the other side of the road as he did in the mockumentary and therefore making Tanner's sighting believable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 11:21:51 PM
We could see from the McCanns own reconstruction that Gerry knew he was on shaky ground with the whole' which side of the road' conundrum. He knew that it would have been impossible for Tanner to pass Jez and him on the same pavement without being seen. A proper reconstruction would certainly have shown that and with both Jez and Tanner's statements conferring there would have been absolutely no chance of Gerry putting himself on the other side of the road as he did in the mockumentary and therefore making Tanner's sighting believable.
Yawn. So as you can already say with certainty what a reconstruction would show, why the need for all the bother of having one in the first place? Just arrest all three of them now for perverting the course of justice and be done with it, eh?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 11:31:47 PM
Yawn. So as you can already say with certainty what a reconstruction would show, why the need for all the bother of having one in the first place? Just arrest all three of them now for perverting the course of justice and be done with it, eh?
That is what it would have to show because that is the picture the facts paint.
BTW why would Jez be involved in any deception ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 11:33:39 PM
That is what it would have to show because that is the picture the facts paint.
BTW why would Jez be involved in any deception ?
You tell me. Some people here seem to think his reluctance to take part in the reconstruction is sinister and suspicious - what about you?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2015, 11:35:07 PM
It is worth noting that the intended witnesses took legal advice as a result of the tone of communications received from Portugal ... they were not easily manipulated poor, illiterate Nationals like the Ciprianos, of whose case I am sure they would have been aware ... but Educated British Nationals who took an informed decision not to participate in a farce. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3699.msg215587#msg215587
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 11:38:37 PM
You tell me. Some people here seem to think his reluctance to take part in the reconstruction is sinister and suspicious - what about you?
Not suspicious at all. Rather selfish but that's just how some people are.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 28, 2015, 11:38:58 PM
So - the McCanns, their friends and Jez do the reconstruction. The police decide from the reconstruction that, despite the fact that a man actually did come forward matching JT's description who claims he was in the vicinity on the night and at the time in question, and at roughly the same time that GM and JW were chatting together, that JT could not possibly have seen him in the circumstances she describes.
What then, Faithlilly? What are the police to deduce from this? That JT is lying and that, by an astonishing stroke of luck she invented a description of a man who actually really did exist? Oh, but I'm forgetting - the police are lying too, aren't they? Tannerman doesn't actually exist in your world does he?
Bonkers...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on January 28, 2015, 11:50:04 PM
So - the McCanns, their friends and Jez do the reconstruction. The police decide from the reconstruction that, despite the fact that a man actually did come forward matching JT's description who claims he was in the vicinity on the night and at the time in question, and at roughly the same time that GM and JW were chatting together, that JT could not possibly have seen him in the circumstances she describes.
What then, Faithlilly? What are the police to deduce from this? That JT is lying and that, by an astonishing stroke of luck she invented a description of a man who actually really did exist? Oh, but I'm forgetting - the police are lying too, aren't they? Tannerman doesn't actually exist in your world does he?
Bonkers...
Then when Gerry realised that the other two individuals within the vicinity of 5a that night agreed which side of the road the talk took place why didn't he just hold his hands up and admit he was wrong ? Why ündermine the statement of his main witness to the abduction, and her credibility, by, against all the evidence, sticking to his guns ? It must have been mighty important for him to do that.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2015, 07:42:57 AM
the tapas and the McCanns didn't trust the PJ and didn't feel they were looking for Maddie. The reconstruction was simply to try and implicate the parents and possibly the group. If amaral's thesis was true then the group would have to be involved in the cover up. The recon would not help the search for Maddie as the PJ were focussing only on the parents. Anyone who says if innocent you have nothing to fear is talking rubbish...plenty of innocents are found guilty. This is my view and I think they were absolutely right not to return.
Those who think the mccanns are involved will not agree..simple
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 29, 2015, 07:50:48 AM
The mere fact that all of them have not returned, says everything.
If you have nothing to hide, and don't give bull about them fearing torture and/or made to confess, they had no reason NOT TO RETURN.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on January 29, 2015, 07:52:55 AM
the tapas and the McCanns didn't trust the PJ and didn't feel they were looking for Maddie. The reconstruction was simply to try and implicate the parents and possibly the group. If amaral's thesis was true then the group would have to be involved in the cover up. The recon would not help the search for Maddie as the PJ were focussing only on the parents. Anyone who says if innocent you have nothing to fear is talking rubbish...plenty of innocents are found guilty. This is my view and I think they were absolutely right not to return.
Those who think the mccanns are involved will not agree..simple
Fundamentally, after the initial searches proved fruitless, the PJ's goal was the find out what happened the Madeleine. Any expectation that anything they planned to undertake had to be directly about "looking for Maddie" was a little naive. The investigation had reached the point where the only way the find Madeleine was to identify when she was moved from the apartment and who moved her.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 29, 2015, 08:35:07 AM
We could see from the McCanns own reconstruction that Gerry knew he was on shaky ground with the whole' which side of the road' conundrum. He knew that it would have been impossible for Tanner to pass Jez and him on the same pavement without being seen. A proper reconstruction would certainly have shown that and with both Jez and Tanner's statements conferring there would have been absolutely no chance of Gerry putting himself on the other side of the road as he did in the mockumentary and therefore making Tanner's sighting believable.
It is excruciatingly easy to describe how this encounter could have happened without Jane Tanner or Tannerman being noticed by Gerry or Jez. Is such an explanation important?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 29, 2015, 09:28:38 AM
The mccanns and associates did not take part in the reconstructuion.
There were NO EXCUSES NOT TO DO SO.
No excuses were made - but valid concerns were expressed in view of the fact that having witnessed the PJ's attempts to frame an innocent couple - they had no trust in the PJ's motives. Those concerns were not allayed by the PJ they were exacerbated.
IMO It would not be humanly possible for 10 different people to carry out an accurate reconstruction covering a period of hours - in hundreds of attempts - let alone the one 'go' they were going to be given - more than a year after events which they were being asked to remember and recreate - minute by minute.
If you think it was possible - then describe how it would work.
I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 29, 2015, 09:33:21 AM
No excuses were made - but valid concerns were expressed in view of the fact that having witnessed the PJ's attempts to frame an innocent couple - they had no trust in the PJ's motives. Those concerns were not allayed by the PJ they were exacerbated.
IMO It would not be humanly possible for 10 different people to carry out an accurate reconstruction covering a period of hours - in hundreds of attempts - let alone the one 'go' they were going to be given - more than a year after events which they were being asked to remember and recreate - minute by minute.
If you think it was possible - then describe how it would work.
I won't hold my breath.
They have had every opportunity to take part in a re-enactment in the last few years.
As to logic, the only thing you display is protection of the mccanns are all costs.
I await your inevitable reply.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on January 29, 2015, 10:24:50 AM
I'm not the one harbouring delusions about the mccanns and co., cooperating with the investigation.
You are.
They have had every opportunity to take part in a re-enactment in the last few years.
As to logic, the only thing you display is protection of the mccanns are all costs.
I await your inevitable reply.
I await your description of how the re-enactment could be achieved with the degree of accuracy that would be necessary from each person in order to recreate their movements of a year before - minute by minute - when 9 of the 10 people didn't know what times they did different things - and could only give approximations.
For instance explain how the PJ would deal with the problem of JT not knowing whether it was 5 or 10 minutes, or sometime inbetween that she left the table after Gerry. If she got it wrong and went only ONE minute earlier than she had a year earlier - then she could have reached the top of the street before Gerry had even left the apartment. What would the PJ have done about that?
Keeping in mind they were only going to get one go at this recon - how would the PJ have dealt with the inaccurate recreation which, because 9 people could only give approx times, would have inevitably been the result IMO Do tell.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 29, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
I await your description of how the re-enactment could be achieved with the degree of accuracy that would be necessary from each person in order to recreate their movements of a year before - minute by minute - when 9 of the 10 people didn't know what times they did different things - and could only give approximations.
For instance explain how the PJ would deal with the problem of JT not knowing whether it was 5 or 10 minutes, or sometime inbetween that she left the table after Gerry. If she got it wrong and went only ONE minute earlier than she had a year earlier - then she could have reached the top of the street before Gerry had even left the apartment. What would the PJ have done about that?
Keeping in mind they were only going to get one go at this recon - how would the PJ have dealt with the inaccurate recreation which, because 9 people could only give approx times, would have inevitably been the result IMO Do tell.
Ricardo Paiva who acted as a liaison officer for the Drs McCann because of his command of English, who dined with them, who invited them to his house and whose children played with his children ... reported nothing suspicious or untoward in their behaviour.
Thus the first plank in the process of justification in arousing suspicion was his allegation that Kate had a dream.
Not any observation of word or deed ... but the allegation which is denied by Dr McCann ... "that Kate had a dream."
Didn't quite see that in the guidlines for FLO ... there again the practice in Portugal may be quite different.
The second plank in the process was the DNA fiasco ...
**snip
DNA samples that are a "100 per cent match" to Madeleine McCann have been found in her parents' hire car and holiday apartment, it has been claimed. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1562710/Madeleine-McCann-DNA-an-accurate-match.html
**snip
But the final report from the Forensic Science Service in Birmingham several weeks later said that the DNA evidence in the case was inconclusive, and did not support the police's theory. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1036898/The-dodgy-DNA-evidence-lead-McCanns-suspects.html#ixzz3QDEuCbb5
Not forgetting the "evidence" of the dogs.
**snip
It is clear from reading the police files that form the basis of this review that the hypothesis that Madeleine had been accidentally killed, and her body hidden, took on a greater significance when the police were under greater pressure, and after the use of “Cadaver Dogs”.
Recommendation - The use of cadaver dogs should be very carefully considered by any future senior investigating officer. Also when used very careful consideration should be given to relying solely on their evidence
Now all that is left of the PJ case to justify making the Drs McCann arguidos are alleged "discrepancies" in their statements.
What better way would there have been of illustrating those alleged discrepancies than to have had everyone running around like headless chickens in a reconstitution that was doomed to failure right from the start ... but one man's failure may be another man's success.
There was a reason behind the demand for this reconstitution which I thought was to enable justification to have the case shelved with the blame firmly passed from the PJ to others (and as this thread proves ... that seems to have worked a treat) but maybe that wasn't the rationale behind it at all.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 29, 2015, 12:53:46 PM
Now all that is left of the PJ case to justify making the Drs McCann arguidos are alleged "discrepancies" in their statements.
"It was Madeleine's father who was the last one to see her alive.
"The family is a lead that should be followed.
The contradictions in Gerald McCann's statements might lead us to suspect a homicide."
Someone should have told him that there aren't any.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2015, 01:10:54 PM
Supposing, as is a pretty nearly forgone conclusion, The McCanns and Friends didn't manage to be precisely where they were supposed to be at the very hard to define time, would this have made them guilty in the eyes of The PJ?
No wonder The Friends didn't very much fancy going. They could all have been locked up for the sake of half a minute.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2015, 03:54:05 PM
Will you please stay On Topic.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 29, 2015, 04:00:19 PM
Here is the bottom line.
The mccanns and the rest did not do a Reconstruction, and there was and is no excuse.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on January 29, 2015, 04:14:24 PM
So, when they were made arguidos, secretly they were laughing cos they knew the high-ups would protect them, right?
If they were innocent, yes.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 29, 2015, 10:46:56 PM
And what about Gerry?
He justifies some of the time with a trip to the toilet. That is not five minutes, then he meets another individual outside. Hence the need for the reconstruction. To find out how long it took them to get to the apartments, what route they walked, etc. (GA)
Gerry was confused on what route he walked. He couldn't tell the front from the back 8(>(( I wonder how far you can quickly walk in 5 minutes &%+((£
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on January 30, 2015, 10:39:15 AM
Two words summing up the McCann's and some of their associates.......
SELF PROTECTION.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2015, 11:13:50 AM
Jane Tanner is an unreliable witness but she sure wasn't helping Gerry here or if she was it backfired spectacularly. She told that Kate said he was watching football to explain his long absence.
4078 “And can you remember, as you past them or thought to acknowledge them, then you noticed they were deep in conversation, can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?” Reply “No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but. Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but. So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but. And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so. Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were. But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”.
Now do you believe Gerry wanted to go back and do a reconstruction. No chance was he going back to do a reconstruction. You can see him getting annoyed in the Sky interview - why has the date been released....blah...blah...blah. Maybe SY should ask again!
And what about Gerry?
He justifies some of the time with a trip to the toilet. That is not five minutes, then he meets another individual outside. Hence the need for the reconstruction. To find out how long it took them to get to the apartments, what route they walked, etc. (GA)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 30, 2015, 12:39:14 PM
Jane Tanner is an unreliable witness but she sure wasn't helping Gerry here or if she was it backfired spectacularly. She told that Kate said he was watching football to explain his long absence.
4078 “And can you remember, as you past them or thought to acknowledge them, then you noticed they were deep in conversation, can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?” Reply “No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but. Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but. So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but. And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so. Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were. But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”.
Now do you believe Gerry wanted to go back and do a reconstruction. No chance was he going back to do a reconstruction. You can see him getting annoyed in the Sky interview - why has the date been released....blah...blah...blah. Maybe SY should ask again!
And what about Gerry?
He justifies some of the time with a trip to the toilet. That is not five minutes, then he meets another individual outside. Hence the need for the reconstruction. To find out how long it took them to get to the apartments, what route they walked, etc. (GA)
Your posts seem to indicate that you are of the opinion that constant repetition of discredited myths will suddenly make them come true.
Dr Gerry McCann is on record as having agreed to return to Portugal to participate in a reconstitution.
I would also point out that there are occasions when it will be necessary for him to visit a toilet ... what a disgrace that on this particular occasion he omitted to take a stopwatch to time his visit ... in fact what were they all thinking about by not timing their every move on the 3rd of May 2007 !! and how dare two people say they didn't see a third when that was what happened. We discussed it to death on a recent thread ... but why let that get in the way of a perfectly good prejudice.
When the sighting of a man carrying a child as detailed by Jane Tanner was investigated properly it was found that contrary to the popular forum belief that he was an invention ... it was found that he actually did exist.
That information would have been uncovered by elementary detective work in 2007 if anyone had really bothered ... pity it had to wait nearly seven years to come to light.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 30, 2015, 12:40:54 PM
Your posts seem to indicate that you are of the opinion that constant repetition of discredited myths will suddenly make them come true.
Dr Gerry McCann is on record as having agreed to return to Portugal to participate in a reconstitution.
I would also point out that there are occasions when it will be necessary for him to visit a toilet ... what a disgrace that on this particular occasion he omitted to take a stopwatch to time his visit ... in fact what were they all thinking about by not timing their every move on the 3rd of May 2007 !! and how dare two people say they didn't see a third when that was what happened. We discussed it to death on a recent thread ... but why let that get in the way of a perfectly good prejudice.
When the sighting of a man carrying a child as detailed by Jane Tanner was investigated properly it was found that contrary to the popular forum belief that he was an invention ... it was found that he actually did exist.
That information would have been uncovered by elementary detective work in 2007 if anyone had really bothered ... pity it had to wait nearly seven years to come to light.
The friends were gonna do whatever the McCanns wanted. That is clear! The McCanns said yes but they're friends said no. Go figure.
He did use a key to enter in my hypothesis after his walk. But that looks extremely stupid if he said the patio door was unlocked so it had to be changed. That doesn't wash with good detectives when they have an unknown gap in the timeline hence the need for a reconstruction with the people involved not actors or computer software.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on January 30, 2015, 01:00:09 PM
The friends were gonna do whatever the McCanns wanted. That is clear! The McCanns said yes but they're friends said no. Go figure.
The friends were entitled to make their own decision on the advisability of attending a reconstitution or not, and consultation with their lawyers seems to have assisted them in this.
It seems that Jez Wilkins whose brief acquaintance was made on that holiday also made the decision not to return for his own reasons.
It remains that you are straying from the fact of the matter that Dr Gerry and Dr Kate McCann had arranged to return to Portugal for the reconstitution ... I think it is probably an ingrained prejudicial factor in you which cannot see that their friends had very good personal reasons for not returning.
Now you go figure what those may have been since I am sure you will be familiar with the press leaks featuring them from sources close to the PJ which were in vogue at the time ... and which later resulted in damage payments for defamation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lyall on January 30, 2015, 02:33:34 PM
It remains that you are straying from the fact of the matter that Dr Gerry and Dr Kate McCann had arranged to return to Portugal for the reconstitution ...
&%+((£
Did they return then?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: DCI on January 30, 2015, 02:35:54 PM
Someone has yet to explain to me how this reconstruction would have demonstrated guilt or innocence...
It can't, because, second time around, nothing can ever be precisely replicated as it happened first time.
The analogy I always use is the shooting dead of Brazilian Jean-Paul de Menezes at the Stockwell Underground Tube station.
Eye-witnesses "saw" a man with leads trailing under a heavyweight, thick, knee-length coat, pole-volt barriers, dash on to the train pursued by surveillance officers, be pinned to the floor and be shot dead.
The reality?
Jean-Paul de Menezes made a leisurely entrance onto the platform, wearing a light-weight denim jacket, stopped to buy a paper, boarded the train in an orthodox way, was pounced on, was pinned to the floor and was shot.
That reality was established by examining close-circuit TV recording of actual events as they unfolded.
What chance a "reconstitution" of revealing the (true!) sequence of events?
Nil, I would suggest ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 08, 2015, 04:07:30 PM
Someone has yet to explain to me how this reconstruction would have demonstrated guilt or innocence...
Maybe they would have ended up running to keep to the timeline. Some people did get there and back very quickly considering they had to lock and unlock doors and go round to the front of the building. In five minutes Matthew Oldfield walked to his flat with Russell O'Brien, unlocked his front door and checked his child, locked up again, went andf spoke to Russell and learned that Russell was staying. He then walked round to the McCann's gate, up the steps and into the apartment. He looked in the bedroom long enough to see the twins breathing, had a check of what books he might borrow, exited the apartment and went back to the restaurant. No mention of negotiating the stair gate, but Kate McCann said she found it closed at 10pm. That was pushing it imo.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 04:13:29 PM
Except as a mechanism for jogging memories and prompting new witnesses to come forward (precluded in Portugal by the secrecy laws) "reconstitutions" contribute nothing to the quest for truth or the quest for justice.
That is why the McCanns' friends were wise to decline to take part in a "reconstitution".
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 08, 2015, 04:26:16 PM
It can't, because, second time around, nothing can ever be precisely replicated as it happened first time.
The analogy I always use is the shooting dead of Brazilian Jean-Paul de Menezes at the Stockwell Underground Tube station.
Eye-witnesses "saw" a man with leads trailing under a heavyweight, thick, knee-length coat, pole-volt barriers, dash on to the train pursued by surveillance officers, be pinned to the floor and be shot dead.
The reality?
Jean-Paul de Menezes made a leisurely entrance onto the platform, wearing a light-weight denim jacket, stopped to buy a paper, boarded the train in an orthodox way, was pounced on, was pinned to the floor and was shot.
That reality was established by examining close-circuit TV recording of actual events as they unfolded.
What chance a "reconstitution" of revealing the (true!) sequence of events?
Nil, I would suggest ...
The only value of a reconstruction (reconstitution) is to jog memories and make people realise they could possibly have witnessed something they did not think significant at the time which could be helpful to the police.
The McCanns did request a reconstruction to take place soon after Madeleine's disappearance. It was refused.
However it seems the police were not even crossing the t's and dotting the i's of the information they did have.
Perhaps if Mr Amaral had been less keen on being convinced by the dogs that Madeleine's body had lain behind the couch / in her parents' bedroom / at the foot of the stairs (take your pick) ... and felt it incumbent on himself to pin her death on them - preferably on her mother ... he might have taken the time to consider the witness evidence he had to hand.
**snip The couple have carried out their own six-month trawl of the 30,000-page Portuguese police files, which were released last year when the investigation was shelved.
This uncovered the four witness statements about the prowler buried in the dossier.
...
Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns' spokesman, said: 'This man needs to be traced urgently and eliminated. These witnesses did talk to Portuguese police but it appears that nothing was done to find him. He is a vital part of the jigsaw.'
I can see how a PT-style reconstruction could rule out someone who had falsely claimed to have committed a crime (odd though it may seem, this sometimes happens, although perhaps not in PT).
I can see how a ballistics / knife stabbing, etc., could be proven or disproven via a reconstruction.
I can see how someone who claimed to be x km drive away from a crime scene could have actually taken back roads and could feasibly have been at the crime scene.
This case seems to be different.
I can't see any way of objectively reconstructing what Gerry and Jes actually heard / noticed that evening. None of the three actually agree on precisely when they were there, nor exactly where they were standing.
Kate and the curtains whooshing... as Pegasus has already found, the prints found in an opening position, according to Amaral, weren't hers and weren't on that window. In order to get curtains to whoosh, you'd have to reconstruct the precise wind conditions at that moment on that night.
SY appears to have taken the coming-and-going of various parents and has established a forensic timeline with whatever timeframes they have established. There was no need for yet another media circus at that late stage for the benefit of the PJ media.
I really don't think that Rebelo was out to set them up... I still think that he was a decent cop, trying to recuperate a mess and was a box-ticker.
On the other hand, T9/ Jes couldn't have known that.
- It wouldn't have helped the search for Madeleine;
- It would have been yet more of a media circus;
- By that time, I doubt that any of them were unaware of the so-called Cipriano "reconstruction", which took place in somewhat dubious circumstances, and for which there was absolutely no forensic back-up, but which landed both of them in jail for a very long time.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 04:42:32 PM
Maybe they would have ended up running to keep to the timeline. Some people did get there and back very quickly considering they had to lock and unlock doors and go round to the front of the building. In five minutes Matthew Oldfield walked to his flat with Russell O'Brien, unlocked his front door and checked his child, locked up again, went andf spoke to Russell and learned that Russell was staying. He then walked round to the McCann's gate, up the steps and into the apartment. He looked in the bedroom long enough to see the twins breathing, had a check of what books he might borrow, exited the apartment and went back to the restaurant. No mention of negotiating the stair gate, but Kate McCann said she found it closed at 10pm. That was pushing it imo.
That would have taken what... all of a few minutes? They weren't half a km away and were presumably hungry and wanting the rest of their dinner. Gerry's absence of 10 or so minutes was noticed because it seemed unusual for someone just doing a quick check. The others didn't know at the time that he'd stopped to chat with Jes.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 08, 2015, 04:53:19 PM
Maybe they would have ended up running to keep to the timeline. Some people did get there and back very quickly considering they had to lock and unlock doors and go round to the front of the building. In five minutes Matthew Oldfield walked to his flat with Russell O'Brien, unlocked his front door and checked his child, locked up again, went andf spoke to Russell and learned that Russell was staying. He then walked round to the McCann's gate, up the steps and into the apartment. He looked in the bedroom long enough to see the twins breathing, had a check of what books he might borrow, exited the apartment and went back to the restaurant. No mention of negotiating the stair gate, but Kate McCann said she found it closed at 10pm. That was pushing it imo.
The Porto PJ didn't appear to have any problems in carrying out their own reconstruction which seems to have been instrumental in convincing them that Madeleine's case should be re-opened and some effort put in to locating an abductor.
The dogs may have convinced Mr Amaral ... but it seems from Rebelo onwards no-one else has given them the time of day. The Oporto team were certainly more interested in what is often the only evidence in abduction cases ... eye witnesses.
**snip The detectives, who have been reviewing the case files for two years, went to Praia da Luz on the Algarve a month ago to pursue secret inquiries.
They spent hours walking around the Ocean Club working out where certain people were seen at particular times and at Apartment 5a, from where threeyear-old Madeleine went missing on May 3, 2007.
The exercise was the culmination of months of work by four Portuguese detectives based in Porto in the north of the country, who are directly working for the highly respected senior officer Helen Monteiro, an expert on abduction cases.
It is thought her elite team of dedicated officers has recently been concentrating on statements from witnesses who say they saw unknown people acting suspiciously in the resort around the time the child was missed.
That would have taken what... all of a few minutes? They weren't half a km away and were presumably hungry and wanting the rest of their dinner. Gerry's absence of 10 or so minutes was noticed because it seemed unusual for someone just doing a quick check. The others didn't know at the time that he'd stopped to chat with Jes.
For 3 or 4 minutes not 10. A brief chat. They were saying how long he was gone before Jane left the table and then claimed she saw them chatting so what was he doing before he met Jez for nearly 10 minutes.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 08, 2015, 06:12:44 PM
I suggest you read the statements and stop talking nonsense.
He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock.
I suggest you read the statements and stop talking nonsense.
He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock.
A reconstruction would have addressed this time discrepancy issue. Do you think they want to do one?
Sargento had no problem with his 3D reconstruction.
Mr Amaral took the lead yet again in his reconstruction for his documentary ... no problem with the cameras there.
The Oporto PJ team managed to work it all out very discretely in the days they spent on their reconstruction.
Scotland Yard used HOLMES I believe to slot everything into place in their reconstruction.
That no-one seems to have had any problem whatsoever rather suggests ... there is no time discrepancy worth bothering about.
Why do you have a problem with the fact the most important time-line of all is absent from your equation? In my opinion that is the one SY and the PJ have spent a lot of time trying to crack, when and if they find the abductor we will know they have had a measure of success.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 08, 2015, 06:29:34 PM
I suggest you read the statements and stop talking nonsense.
He adds that he never entered any other part of the residence [his bedroom or the kitchen] where he was for only two or three minutes, leaving yet again through the rear door that he closed but did not lock.
A reconstruction would have addressed this time discrepancy issue. Do you think they want to do one?
How could any time discrepancies be resolved when no-one knew the exact times they did various things or exactly how long it had taken them. They could only give approximations. In order to conduct an exact replica of what they did on 3rd May they would all have to know the exact times. To expect 10 people to be able to do that is absurd.
The odds must be enormous for even one person - say for instance JT leaving the table at the exact time she did a year before, or Gerry leaving 5A at the exact time he did before or of Jez Wilkins setting off on his walk at exactly the same time that he did a year previous. The chances of the three of them getting it spot on by sheer chance must be millions to one.
JT estimated that she left the table between 5 and 10 minutes after Gerry.
The consequences of her guessing at the wrong time in a recon could mean that when she walked up the street, Gerry and Jez may not have even arrived at the spot where she saw them.
What would that prove?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 07:10:46 PM
How could any time discrepancies be resolved when no-one knew the exact times they did various things or exactly how long it had taken them. They could only give approximations. In order to conduct an exact replica of what they did on 3rd May they would all have to know the exact times. To expect 10 people to be able to do that is absurd.
The odds must be enormous for even one person - say for instance JT leaving the table at the exact time she did a year before, or Gerry leaving 5A at the exact time he did before or of Jez Wilkins setting off on his walk at exactly the same time that he did a year previous. The chances of the three of them getting it spot on by sheer chance must be millions to one.
JT estimated that she left the table between 5 and 10 minutes after Gerry.
The consequences of her guessing at the wrong time in a recon could mean that when she walked up the street, Gerry and Jez may not have even arrived at the spot where she saw them.
What would that prove?
It proves he had opportunity and time to move somebody out of that apartment without anybody noticing. The same could be said for the other long check by Russell. Identify Smithman.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.
Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.
The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" - a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on July 09, 2015, 10:42:48 AM
Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.
The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" - a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.
The farce was the suggestion that such a ridiculous notion (as a "reconstitution") was ever mooted in the first place ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 09, 2015, 11:15:57 PM
Quote from: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:54:02 PM That remains to be demonstrated;
No it doesn't.
The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.
----------
Quote from: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:16:06 PM Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.
The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" - a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.
---------- QUOTE BY FERRYMAN:
The farce was the suggestion that such a ridiculous notion (as a "reconstitution") was ever mooted in the first place ...
-----
Seeing as our discussion was cut short by the Mods on the Amaral and the Dogs thread, Im carrying it on here
Now, by the above, do you think both Rebelo , the new investigator after Amafal was booted off the case, and the Public Prosecutor who criticised the Tapas group, were wrong? But YOU are right? Dont you realise all these refusals to cooperate with the police are one of the main reasons the Mccanns and some of their friends are suspected/maligned? In your words?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 01:18:09 AM
1578 “’I don’t recall at what time, at what point, it was around twenty-one zero five to twenty-one twenty’'”
Reply “I think that’s, that’s almost the time that he would have been away for, not that he left as late as, erm, twenty-one twenty, yeah. So he, he went, he was away, but, I mean, I, to be honest, you know, as I’ve said here, it’s the timeline that kind of says when Gerry went up. Yeah, ‘Jane also went to check the children and was gone for a short time’, I think it was, to be more specific there ‘It was just a matter of a couple of minutes’. Yeah, ‘She didn’t mention anything unusual’.
Gerry away for nearly 15 minutes &%+((£ That makes sense when Jane said he was gone a long time before she left the table. A reconstruction would certainly sort this lot out!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on July 10, 2015, 05:43:09 AM
Quote from: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:54:02 PM That remains to be demonstrated;
No it doesn't.
The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.
----------
Quote from: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:16:06 PM Of course it was a farce. Never in the history of crime have witnesses who have said they would do anything at all go help, refuse to do so unless their conditions were first met. I would like to see them try that little trick with the British police.
The embarrassing irony, after some were weeping and wailing how a reconstruction would be a horror for them to relive, went in a year later to say YES to the Mccanns for their own "reconstruction" - a farce if there ever was. misrepresenting facts and witness statements and all sorts.
---------- QUOTE BY FERRYMAN:
The farce was the suggestion that such a ridiculous notion (as a "reconstitution") was ever mooted in the first place ...
-----
Seeing as our discussion was cut short by the Mods on the Amaral and the Dogs thread, Im carrying it on here
Now, by the above, do you think both Rebelo , the new investigator after Amafal was booted off the case, and the Public Prosecutor who criticised the Tapas group, were wrong? But YOU are right? Dont you realise all these refusals to cooperate with the police are one of the main reasons the Mccanns and some of their friends are suspected/maligned? In your words?
Think doesn't enter into it.
Perhaps Portuguese law will do the decent think and consign (Portuguese style!) "reconstitutions" to the history book of Portuguese law.
We can but hope ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 09:00:03 AM
Perhaps Portuguese law will do the decent think and consign (Portuguese style!) "reconstitutions" to the history book of Portuguese law.
We can but hope ...
Still an unsolved case Ferryman if you hadn't noticed so they can get back and help to do a reconstruction and they can account for all their time away from the table not just some. It's not like they will ever forget that night and have re-played it hundreds of times in their minds searching for answers. It only takes 45 seconds to walk to the patio door. I want realism not fantasy.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lace on July 10, 2015, 09:19:32 AM
Still an unsolved case Ferryman if you hadn't noticed so they can get back and help to do a reconstruction and they can account for all their time away from the table not just some. It's not like they will ever forget that night and have re-played it hundreds of times in their minds searching for answers. It only takes 45 seconds to walk to the patio door. I want realism not fantasy.
Of course they will never forget that night. However that does not mean they should be expected to remember down to the last minute the exact time they made each and every move - particularly as they had no reason at the time to place any importance at all on the times they did anything.
To successfully recreate their movements of a year previous - then knowing the precise times they did different things is absolute crucial - but it is simply not humanly possible for one person to do that - let alone 10 of them.
If you really believe a recon would solve anything - then perhaps you could give us your idea of how it would be carried out? IIRC the plan was to cover the hours between 5.30 and 11.00p.m.
Lots of questions come to mind. For instance:
Were the present occupants of the apartment they used a year previous going to be asked to leave for the day?
How were they going to guarantee identical weather conditions prevailed?
Also
PJ to Jez Wilkins. ''We would like you to set out on your walk at the same time you did a year ago'
JW to PJ - But I don't know the exact time, I can only guess. What if I go at the wrong time and don't meet Gerry'? What then - do I go again at a different time or what?
PJ to Jez Wilkins..........................................................??
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 09:31:50 AM
A reconstruction would prove if it was possible for her to pass both of them without being seen. One witness thinks not.
I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.
Q. Relative to whether I know Jane Tanner; Now I know her name, description of the clothes and photos which I have seen in the press. At that time I knew of her as a member of the group but did not know her name. I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment. I do not know if it was her apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing the colour purple.
Q. Relative to the passerby/transient: I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by me in this way but this as an assumption and I do not remember anything having happened.
Of course they will never forget that night. However that does not mean they should be expected to remember down to the last minute the exact time they made each and every move - particularly as they had no reason at the time to place any importance at all on the times they did anything.
To successfully recreate their movements of a year previous - then knowing the precise times they did different things is absolute crucial - but it is simply not humanly possible for one person to do that - let alone 10 of them.
If you really believe a recon would solve anything - then perhaps you could give us your idea of how it would be carried out? IIRC the plan was to cover the hours between 5.30 and 11.00p.m.
Lots of questions come to mind. For instance:
Were the present occupants of the apartment they used a year previous going to be asked to leave for the day?
How were they going to guarantee identical weather conditions prevailed?
Also
PJ to Jez Wilkins. ''We would like you to set out on your walk at the same time you did a year ago'
JW to PJ - But I don't know the exact time, I can only guess. What if I go at the wrong time and don't meet Gerry'? What then - do I go again at a different time or what?
PJ to Jez Wilkins..........................................................??
Big discrepancy in time. Nearly 15 minutes to do a check. Jane said he was gone a long time before she left the table and saw them chatting. They both said it was only a brief chat. 45 seconds to get to the patio door. A few minutes inside the apartment. Do the maths it doesn't add up. A reconstruction would address this important issue. Actually it's crucial in my theory. Means, opportunity and motive have to be investigated or your not doing your job properly.
The conversation with Gerry lasted for about three minutes during which Gerry was chatty and in his normal self. Jeremy then made his way back to his apartment.
A reconstruction would prove if it was possible for her to pass both of them without being seen. One witness thinks not.
I believe that it would have been possible to see if an individual was near but evidently, the greater the distance, the harder the difficulty in seeing. I would say that when I spoke with Gerry it was possible to recognize someone I knew who was passing on foot at the crossing at the top of the hill or to describe approximately someone unknown from that distance.
Q. Relative to whether I know Jane Tanner; Now I know her name, description of the clothes and photos which I have seen in the press. At that time I knew of her as a member of the group but did not know her name. I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment. I do not know if it was her apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing the colour purple.
Q. Relative to the passerby/transient: I can affirm that it was a quiet street and it was very unlikely that someone could have passed by me in this way but this as an assumption and I do not remember anything having happened.
No it wouldn't prove that IMO. It took seconds for JT to pass them by. If one had his back to her and the other was looking in a different direction and they were deep in conversaton - then it is perfectly possible they missed her.
Unfortunately there is no way I can prove it, but I know it is possible from personal experience. My grandson sat in his car - parked at the curb, with the door wide open - talking to me. I was standing at my gate about 2/3 metres away saying goodbye to him. As he leaned out to close his door he dropped his keys and in the time it took him to retrieve them and look up again - a jogger passed between us.
When I commented on the jogger's hilarious shorts - grandson said.... ''what shorts''. He had no idea that anyone had just passed within a few feet of him. In the meantime the jogger had disappeared round a corner.
And this was in broad daylight.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 09:57:05 AM
No it wouldn't prove that IMO. It took seconds for JT to pass them by. If one had his back to her and the other was looking in a different direction and they were deep in conversaton - then it is perfectly possible they missed her.
Unfortunately there is no way I can prove it, but I know it is possible from personal experience. My grandson sat in his car - parked at the curb, with the door wide open - talking to me. I was standing at my gate about 2/3 metres away saying goodbye to him. As he leaned out to close his door he dropped his keys and in the time it took him to retrieve them and look up again - a jogger passed between us.
When I commented on the jogger's hilarious shorts - grandson said.... ''what shorts''. He had no idea that anyone had just passed within a few feet of him. In the meantime the jogger had disappeared round a corner.
And this was in broad daylight.
Two witnesses who both claim they didn't see her. Nobody dropped keys (Gerry later said he didn't have his on him @)(++(*). Here's the reconstruction setting - source TOTL book
Big discrepancy in time. Nearly 15 minutes to do a check. Jane said he was gone a long time before she left the table and saw them chatting. They both said it was only a brief chat. 45 seconds to get to the patio door. A few minutes inside the apartment. Do the maths it doesn't add up. A reconstruction would address this important issue. Actually it's crucial in my theory. Means, opportunity and motive have to be investigated or your not doing your job properly.
The conversation with Gerry lasted for about three minutes during which Gerry was chatty and in his normal self. Jeremy then made his way back to his apartment.
But that is the whole point. None of them knew for definite the exact times of different events. They are all approximations, therefore there is no guarantee that any of them (apart from Gerry's 9.5) are accurate.
You are treating the times given as if they are accurate. They are not. They are the times which different people truthfully thought were the right times, but there is no guarantee that they are accurate. Especially as different people have different perceptions of times and distances.
IIRC Jez said that he spent 3 to 5 mins speaking to Gerry?
(Must go out now)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on July 10, 2015, 10:06:53 AM
No it wouldn't prove that IMO. It took seconds for JT to pass them by. If one had his back to her and the other was looking in a different direction and they were deep in conversaton - then it is perfectly possible they missed her.
Unfortunately there is no way I can prove it, but I know it is possible from personal experience. My grandson sat in his car - parked at the curb, with the door wide open - talking to me. I was standing at my gate about 2/3 metres away saying goodbye to him. As he leaned out to close his door he dropped his keys and in the time it took him to retrieve them and look up again - a jogger passed between us.
When I commented on the jogger's hilarious shorts - grandson said.... ''what shorts''. He had no idea that anyone had just passed within a few feet of him. In the meantime the jogger had disappeared round a corner.
And this was in broad daylight.
Firstly the jogger was moving swiftly, Tanner was not. Secondly one of you saw him. I don't think even you'd suggest that it was credible that both of you would have missed him.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 10:07:11 AM
But that is the whole point. None of them knew for definite the exact times of different events. They are all approximations, therefore there is no guarantee that any of them (apart from Gerry's 9.5) are accurate.
You are treating the times given as if they are accurate. They are not. They are the times which different people truthfully thought were the right times, but there is no guarantee that they are accurate. Especially as different people have different perceptions of times and distances.
IIRC Jez said that he spent 3 to 5 mins speaking to Gerry?
(Must go out now)
That explains why you would never be a good detective. They have to be exact to fit everything together.
"I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’" (JT at the table before she left)
Now show me where Gerry said that ? Kate said it to probably explain his long absence.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Montclair on July 10, 2015, 10:22:18 AM
Perhaps Portuguese law will do the decent think and consign (Portuguese style!) "reconstitutions" to the history book of Portuguese law.
We can but hope ...
France and Italy also do reconstructions in the same way as the Portuguese, with the people involved and in order to find the truth of what happened. Should they ditch their methods because they do not please you and the McCanns?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 10:53:06 AM
For Benice - watch it and pay attention. I wonder if they were reading this forum. 5 minutes would be a normal check so for someone to be talked about being gone a long time your talking up to twice that time away i.e. 10 minutes. Remember that this happened before Jane left the table!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 10, 2015, 11:08:57 AM
You also have to take into account footwear. Jane Tanner was wearing flip flops and hurrying. Flip flops make a noise. So were the men both deaf as well as blind?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 10, 2015, 11:17:26 AM
You also have to take into account footwear. Jane Tanner was wearing flip flops and hurrying. Flip flops make a noise. So were the men both deaf as well as blind?
Isn't it wonderful that the PJ and SY were able to overcome all these terribly important some might even think myopic events and manage to find enough evidence to re-open the inquiry into Madeleine McCann's case.
HOLMES in conjunction with Oporto 'feet on the ground' seem to have been a wonderful combination in relation to 'reconstitution' of events.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 10, 2015, 12:13:37 PM
Isn't it wonderful that the PJ and SY were able to overcome all these terribly important some might even think myopic events and manage to find enough evidence to re-open the inquiry into Madeleine McCann's case.
HOLMES in conjunction with Oporto 'feet on the ground' seem to have been a wonderful combination in relation to 'reconstitution' of events.
Redwood and his 'forensic' examination of the timeline being an example. As has been pointed out, however, the times weren't exact, so there is a margin of error that can't be excluded whatever software you use. It also can't tell you why two men failed to see or hear a woman flip flopping past them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 10, 2015, 12:36:27 PM
Redwood and his 'forensic' examination of the timeline being an example. As has been pointed out, however, the times weren't exact, so there is a margin of error that can't be excluded whatever software you use. It also can't tell you why two men failed to see or hear a woman flip flopping past them.
Possibly it could be that the real detectives involved in searching for Madeleine McCann have gone beyond the obsessions of the primary botched investigation and are actively pursuing real evidence which may lead to the solving of Madeleine's case.
No SY have not been in touch to keep me informed before you ask ... just a logical deduction being made from the search to find the stranger who abducted Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 01:03:34 PM
Possibly it could be that the real detectives involved in searching for Madeleine McCann have gone beyond the obsessions of the primary botched investigation and are actively pursuing real evidence which may lead to the solving of Madeleine's case.
No SY have not been in touch to keep me informed before you ask ... just a logical deduction being made from the search to find the stranger who abducted Madeleine McCann.
That is real evidence from witnesses who were there. I thought this was an investigation into the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann not Abduction.
Simon Israel:
"Do you anticipate this being a long hard slog?"
DCI Redwood:
"We're working extremely hard on this case. We're absolutely committed to the work we're doing & we're fighting hard for Madeleine McCann. But yes it is a hard slog and we still have got some way to go."
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 10, 2015, 02:06:57 PM
Possibly it could be that the real detectives involved in searching for Madeleine McCann have gone beyond the obsessions of the primary botched investigation and are actively pursuing real evidence which may lead to the solving of Madeleine's case.
No SY have not been in touch to keep me informed before you ask ... just a logical deduction being made from the search to find the stranger who abducted Madeleine McCann.
Is that real Portuguese detectives or real British detectives? Just asking as the Portuguese are, of course, the lead investigating authorities. I have not seen any reliable cites to say either are pursuing only the 'stranger abduction' theory.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 10, 2015, 09:59:34 PM
Perhaps Portuguese law will do the decent think and consign (Portuguese style!) "reconstitutions" to the history book of Portuguese law.
We can but hope ...
So you have knowledge that all such reconstitutions operated in Portugal have never brought any light to any case? Or do you have knowledge that any have resulted in a miscarriage of justice? Fact is, unless it was carried out, no one can say whether it was a help or a hindrance. It is risible that members of the group wanted in advance guarantees that it would be productive before they stopped their non cooperation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 11, 2015, 09:04:15 AM
One thing certain sure is that the tapas group will have researched exactly what 'reconstitution' was all about and took legal advice.
I find it rather touching that at a time when in Britain we had largely taken steps to iron out the Gene Hunt school of policing the sceptics are so determined that people should have thrown themselves into a system which was still operating from that handbook.
I know that is being unfair to Rebelo ... but the Tapas group were working from the experience of their treatment and what had happened to the McCanns ... and who can blame them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 11, 2015, 10:21:57 AM
One thing certain sure is that the tapas group will have researched exactly what 'reconstitution' was all about and took legal advice.
I find it rather touching that at a time when in Britain we had largely taken steps to iron out the Gene Hunt school of policing the sceptics are so determined that people should have thrown themselves into a system which was still operating from that handbook.
I know that is being unfair to Rebelo ... but the Tapas group were working from the experience of their treatment and what had happened to the McCanns ... and who can blame them.
Although with hindsight unlikely uner Rebelo, I expect they had visions of a Thai beach-style one, with the world's media snapping away as Gerry is made to carry a life-size doll from behind the sofa, stuff it in the cupboard, then chuck it in the garden, then sprint to the beach with a life-size doll in his arms in a flak jacket and helmet.
Instead of openly disagreeing on whether the trio were standing in the street, would they have been made to pose for the cameras in a particular position so as to illustrate that it would have been impossible not to see Jane? How would they evaluate that it was impossible for the two men not to hear Jane in her flipflops? Who decides and on what basis? A sound recording wouldn't take into account the subjective perception (or rather lack of it) of two men engrossed in carefree banter. What if a gust of wind from the right direction didn't materialise to blow the curtains? Would that mean that it didn't happen?
Forensic software can presumably do much of this these days, although the PJ may not have had access to any at the time.
A potentially more interesting one would have been to establish a forensic timeline with pretend intruders attempting to enter and exit in between the comings-and-goings - and that's now been done.
More useful still would have been a full reconstruction back in May 2007 with OC staff, guests and everyone else known to have been in the vicinity while memories were still fresh.
I can imagine when such reconstructions could be useful, but not in this case.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 09:47:25 AM
Although with hindsight unlikely uner Rebelo, I expect they had visions of a Thai beach-style one, with the world's media snapping away as Gerry is made to carry a life-size doll from behind the sofa, stuff it in the cupboard, then chuck it in the garden, then sprint to the beach with a life-size doll in his arms in a flak jacket and helmet.
Instead of openly disagreeing on whether the trio were standing in the street, would they have been made to pose for the cameras in a particular position so as to illustrate that it would have been impossible not to see Jane? How would they evaluate that it was impossible for the two men not to hear Jane in her flipflops? Who decides and on what basis? A sound recording wouldn't take into account the subjective perception (or rather lack of it) of two men engrossed in carefree banter. What if a gust of wind from the right direction didn't materialise to blow the curtains? Would that mean that it didn't happen?
Forensic software can presumably do much of this these days, although the PJ may not have had access to any at the time.
A potentially more interesting one would have been to establish a forensic timeline with pretend intruders attempting to enter and exit in between the comings-and-goings - and that's now been done.
More useful still would have been a full reconstruction back in May 2007 with OC staff, guests and everyone else known to have been in the vicinity while memories were still fresh.
I can imagine when such reconstructions could be useful, but not in this case.
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional. The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.
What price justice?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 10:30:14 AM
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional. The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.
What price justice?
to arrest someone you need evidence... I would have thought you knew that. Your claims re political interference are ridiculous
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2015, 10:52:39 AM
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional. The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.
What price justice?
The law isn't always about justice, though, is it? The cases where people got arrested for using 'unreasonable force' against intruders in their homes springs to mind.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 10:57:53 AM
The law isn't always about justice, though, is it? The cases where people got arrested for using 'unreasonable force' against intruders in their homes springs to mind.
the law is about justice...not always your own personal opinion of what justice means though
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 11:29:39 AM
I think you will be hard pressed to find a claimed child abduction case where cooperating with police was conditional. The British group should have been compelled to go back and take part in a reconstitution of events or arrested and charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. The Portuguese police should have pursued this issue more firmly but then their political masters needed a deal with the UK over other more important pressing matters and that unfortunately took precedence.
What price justice?
Such as?
Have you found anything in the statutes at the time that - as witnesses - they could legally have been compelled to go?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on July 12, 2015, 11:37:38 AM
Have you found anything in the statutes at the time that - as witnesses - they could legally have been compelled to go?
They shouldn't have needed to be compelled. As innocent bystanders, one might have expected them to be only too pleased to assist the investigation, wherever it led.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 11:38:36 AM
One thing certain sure is that the tapas group will have researched exactly what 'reconstitution' was all about and took legal advice.
I find it rather touching that at a time when in Britain we had largely taken steps to iron out the Gene Hunt school of policing the sceptics are so determined that people should have thrown themselves into a system which was still operating from that handbook.
I know that is being unfair to Rebelo ... but the Tapas group were working from the experience of their treatment and what had happened to the McCanns ... and who can blame them.
The first time I'd heard of "Life on Mars" was from RM:
ROBERT MURAT: At one stage I was taken to an area where they wanted to fingerprint me and take photographs and all that kind of stuff. And I think they were trying to disorient,er, me because they moved me around from room to room, hallway to hallway, corridor to corridor and it seemed very choreographed calling out, “Well, take photographs of him” and you know, he’s, er, “We want to send a team to Poland.” It was kind of a choreographed situation.
RB: What, to intimidate you?
ROBERT MURAT: Yeah, I think so. And it did intimidate me at the time. Its now that I realise what was going on. I had five people rushing into a room and, erm, and standing behind me and it felt very very ‘Life on Mars’. It felt very, er you know, erm, just very pressured.
RB: He was questioned for nineteen hours before he was released. The next day he returned to collect his belongings and Robert Murat says he met Goncalo Amaral, the lead detective.
ROBERT MURAT: He basically told me it was a game of two halves and as the night before I hadn’t confessed, erm, then, he would get me on the second half and he just kind of turned his back on me. He didn’t… He just… It seemed he didn’t care about the truth. That was the, that's how I felt.
They shouldn't have needed to be compelled. As innocent bystanders, one might have expected them to be only too pleased to assist the investigation, wherever it led.
I was replying to John's assertion that "political masters" meant that they hadn't compelled them to do so. I'm not aware of statutes that could have compelled them to attend anyway.
As to innocent bystanders, in the abstract, I'd agree with you. In context, I don't.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
There was undeniable political interference in this case.
Why do you deny it ?
The 3 "family liaison officers were flown out "at the request of the Foreign Commonwealth Office.
Further information emerged regarding the 2 additional experts Buck had announced on Tuesday May 8th. Ambassador Buck said they were "kidnapping experts" and had joined the 3 other British investigators who had been in Portugal since Saturday "... two 'Cracker-style' criminal behaviour experts from Britain flew into the Algarve yesterday to join investigators..." They were from CEOP and their dispatch had been organised by the British Foreign Office. "A spokeswoman for the CEOP said the move was unprecedented and had been organised by the Foreign Office."
An internal document was sent by the Foreign Office ordering British diplomats 'to avoid offering support' to Robert Murat unless charges were presented against him."
Personal intervention of Gordon Brown was reported. Gordon Brown was reported to have urged police to give more public details after the McCanns voiced their concern about the lack of disclosure by Portuguese detectives.
A memo was leaked to the Belgian newspaper La Dernière Heure regarding a diplomat's concerns about the case.
The leaked memo was routed through the British diplomatic mission in Brussels The leaked memo was sent "just days" after Madeleine disappeared. The leaked memo warned the Foreign Office of concerns regarding the McCanns and warned of the risks of siding with the McCanns in public. The diplomat immediately had doubts after being sent to Praia da Luz due to what he considered to be inconsistencies in their testimonies and "confused declarations" as to the whereabouts of the McCanns and their friends on May 3. The memo mentions instructions "from London" that consular staff "overstretch their authority and put pressure on Portuguese authorities." The memo refers to orders sent the previous day from the Foreign Office in London commanding embassy staff to provide all possible assistance to the McCanns and that the McCanns "had to be "accompanied at all times during any contact with the Portuguese police" by a member of consular staff or by British police officers sent out from the UK. He also mentioned their lack of cooperation with the Portuguese police http://newsoutlines.blogspot.co.uk/p/british-foreign-office-timeline.html
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 12, 2015, 01:24:47 PM
The 3 "family liaison officers were flown out "at the request of the Foreign Commonwealth Office.
Further information emerged regarding the 2 additional experts Buck had announced on Tuesday May 8th. Ambassador Buck said they were "kidnapping experts" and had joined the 3 other British investigators who had been in Portugal since Saturday "... two 'Cracker-style' criminal behaviour experts from Britain flew into the Algarve yesterday to join investigators..." They were from CEOP and their dispatch had been organised by the British Foreign Office. "A spokeswoman for the CEOP said the move was unprecedented and had been organised by the Foreign Office."
An internal document was sent by the Foreign Office ordering British diplomats 'to avoid offering support' to Robert Murat unless charges were presented against him."
Personal intervention of Gordon Brown was reported. Gordon Brown was reported to have urged police to give more public details after the McCanns voiced their concern about the lack of disclosure by Portuguese detectives.
A memo was leaked to the Belgian newspaper La Dernière Heure regarding a diplomat's concerns about the case.
The leaked memo was routed through the British diplomatic mission in Brussels The leaked memo was sent "just days" after Madeleine disappeared. The leaked memo warned the Foreign Office of concerns regarding the McCanns and warned of the risks of siding with the McCanns in public. The diplomat immediately had doubts after being sent to Praia da Luz due to what he considered to be inconsistencies in their testimonies and "confused declarations" as to the whereabouts of the McCanns and their friends on May 3. The memo mentions instructions "from London" that consular staff "overstretch their authority and put pressure on Portuguese authorities." The memo refers to orders sent the previous day from the Foreign Office in London commanding embassy staff to provide all possible assistance to the McCanns and that the McCanns "had to be "accompanied at all times during any contact with the Portuguese police" by a member of consular staff or by British police officers sent out from the UK. He also mentioned their lack of cooperation with the Portuguese police http://newsoutlines.blogspot.co.uk/p/british-foreign-office-timeline.html
Perhaps the Foreign Office had their concerns about the number of British children being abused in their beds while their parents slept.
Perhaps they had their concerns about the Investigation Co-ordinator being made an arguido in the alleged torture case concerning the mother of another missing child which happened on his watch.
Perhaps just another example of the paranoia surrounding all that seemed to go wrong in that individual's car crash of a life ... everyone else responsible for the situations he found himself in, particularly his financial woes, but himself.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 01:39:01 PM
Perhaps the Foreign Office had their concerns about the number of British children being abused in their beds while their parents slept.
Perhaps they had their concerns about the Investigation Co-ordinator being made an arguido in the alleged torture case concerning the mother of another missing child which happened on his watch.
Perhaps just another example of the paranoia surrounding all that seemed to go wrong in that individual's car crash of a life ... everyone else responsible for the situations he found himself in, particularly his financial woes, but himself.
Perhaps they knew nothing about any of the above when their 'unprecedented' support and interference commenced on 3rd May.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 01:58:18 PM
Perhaps they knew nothing about any of the above when their 'unprecedented' support and interference commenced on 3rd May.
The fact of the assaults on British children has been the subject of derision and denial among sceptics since Dr McCann referred to being told about it by the ambassador at the time ... with your cyclopaedic knowledge of the case, surprised you were ignorant of that.
I still haven't quite worked out why this outrage for the search for a missing child.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2015, 02:07:15 PM
to arrest someone you need evidence... I would have thought you knew that. Your claims re political interference are ridiculous
Obstruction of a criminal investigation is a serious matter and an arrestable offence.
The Portuguese police were prevented from doing their job on two fronts, no wonder this case with all its conspiracies has endured for over eight years.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 02:11:57 PM
No they aren't, the Portuguese police were prevented from doing their job on two fronts, no wonder this case with all its conspiracies has endured for over eight years.
absolute rubbish john...the uk police told the pj to investigate the parents...remember...which they did and the archiving report made it clear what the pj found...sweet fa
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 02:16:21 PM
Have you found anything in the statutes at the time that - as witnesses - they could legally have been compelled to go?
Common to both the UK and Portugal, witnesses in any criminal investigation are required to assist police with their enquiries. Failure to do so can be adjudged as obstruction and can be prosecuted.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 02:18:18 PM
The fact is that the pj had little experience in gathering evidence and investigating a crime...they relied on the suspect confessing...under torture or the threat of torture
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 02:19:52 PM
Common to both the UK and Portugal, witnesses in any criminal investigation are required to assist police with their enquiries. Failure to do so can be adjudged as obstruction and can be prosecuted.
I think you will find that the PJ had no power to compel the tapas to return...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2015, 02:26:55 PM
The fact is that the pj had little experience in gathering evidence and investigating a crime...they relied on the suspect confessing...under torture or the threat of torture
The mccanns were never threatened with torture or had the threat of it.
Just another myth.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 02:29:14 PM
absolute rubbish john...the uk police told the pj to investigate the parents...remember...which they did and the archiving report made it clear what the pj found...sweet fa
A lack of evidence does not mean a crime wasn't committed.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2015, 02:47:51 PM
The fact of the assaults on British children has been the subject of derision and denial among sceptics since Dr McCann referred to being told about it by the ambassador at the time ... with your cyclopaedic knowledge of the case, surprised you were ignorant of that.
I still haven't quite worked out why this outrage for the search for a missing child.
I can't work out why there's so much outrage because the McCanns haven't manage to convince some people of their innocence. Anyone would think people knew them. The 'doctor' title you insist on using doesn't impress, by the way. They're just people like everyone else, whatever their profession.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 12, 2015, 03:00:30 PM
I can't work out why there's so much outrage because the McCanns haven't manage to convince some people of their innocence. Anyone would think people knew them. The 'doctor' title you insist on using doesn't impress, by the way. They're just people like everyone else, whatever their profession.
I think you'll find that the outrage is less to do with the fact that some people disbelieve the McCanns are more to do with the organised pressure group's campaign to spread suspicion about the parents of a missing child, based on myths and lies and "gut-feel" worthless observations.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 03:00:37 PM
I think you will find that the PJ had no power to compel the tapas to return...
No, but a Portuguese magistrate did have such power to request it and would have done so had there not been the political interference there was between governments. Amarals forced removal from the case sent shockwaves through the PJ and led to the belief that justice was negotiable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 03:46:49 PM
No, but a Portuguese magistrate did have such power to request it and would have done so had there not been the political interference there was between governments. Amarals forced removal from the case sent shockwaves through the PJ and led to the belief that justice was negotiable.
You are dreaming......they did request it but they have no power to enforce it...that would require extradition or a EAW which are only available for suspects in serious crimes...NOT witnesses
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 03:55:21 PM
You are dreaming......they did request it but they have no power to enforce it...that would require extradition or a EAW which are only available for suspects in serious crimes...NOT witnesses
Doesn't a refusal to cooperate with police in a criminal investigation constitute a crime anyway?
The question should be asked as to why the tapas crew felt so scared to return to Praia da Luz and contribute to the reconstitution as the police required?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pegasus on July 12, 2015, 04:04:53 PM
The fact is that the pj had little experience in gathering evidence and investigating a crime...they relied on the suspect confessing...under torture or the threat of torture
The GBP see easily through attempts to make them think an entire police force is incompetent and corrupt. The PJ were genuinely trying to solve the case and decided a reconstitution would help.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 12, 2015, 04:18:32 PM
The GBP see easily through attempts to make them think an entire police force is incompetent and corrupt. The PJ were genuinely trying to solve the case and decided a reconstitution would help.
As was normal practise in Portugal. Madeleine should have been the priority here but for whatever reason this was lost in translation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 04:46:25 PM
Doesn't a refusal to cooperate with police in a criminal investigation constitute a crime anyway?
The question should be asked as to why the tapas crew felt so scared to return to Praia da Luz and contribute to the reconstitution as the police required?
no it doesn't...it's one of the basic rules of justice...the right to silence... We've gone over the refusal before..if you look at the behaviour of the PJ in lying to the mccanns...not being able to understand the evidence ..conduct in the cipriano case....no one in their right minds would have returned
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 12, 2015, 04:47:49 PM
The GBP see easily through attempts to make them think an entire police force is incompetent and corrupt. The PJ were genuinely trying to solve the case and decided a reconstitution would help.
You do not only do other posters a disservice by supposing they have claimed all Polícia Judiciária Officers are as corrupt as those surrounding Mr Amaral ... you do the PJ itself a disservice. It should be noted that ordinary hard working officers do not appreciate being associated with those who have faced criminal charges and convictions.
Paulo Rebelo gives an indication of how an investigation should be conducted, reconstruction and all ... his predecessor exemplified the obverse.
'They believe us': Portuguese police finally re-enact Madeleine abduction Last updated at 13:09 30 October 2007
Kate and Gerry McCann have received a massive boost as Portuguese police have finally decided to reconstruct what happened on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
In a clear sign that Portuguese police are moving back towards the possibility that the four-year old was abducted the new head of the Portuguese police investigation returned to the McCanns' apartment last night to re-enact a possible abduction.
Paulo Rebelo and six detectives appeared to be testing Kate and Gerry McCann's belief that their daughter was snatched from the two-bedroom flat.
They spent almost three hours at the apartment where Madeleine was left sleeping with two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie on May 3.They seemed to be focusing on windows and patio doors where an abductor could have gained entry.
Witnesses saw the team passing a large blue blanket through a bedroom window.
They said the detectives appeared to be checking whether it would be possible for one person to take a child out or if they would have needed an accomplice.
no it doesn't...it's one of the basic rules of justice...the right to silence... We've gone over the refusal before..if you look at the behaviour of the PJ in lying to the mccanns...not being able to understand the evidence ..conduct in the cipriano case....no one in their right minds would have returned
Total rollocks.
They were under no threat.
The political help they received was quite extraordinary.
They simply refused to fully cooperate fully with the investigation.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 12, 2015, 05:10:53 PM
The only people the Drs McCann need to 'convince' of anything are the investigating authorities ... absolute arrogance to suggest they need to convince sceptics on social media.
You have a problem with my use of Doctor?? That is very revealing.
It might possibly have been attitudes such as that which may have convinced the Drs McCann Doctor friends that a return to Portugal for a 'reconstitution' might not be the most sensible course of action to take.
Why do you spend your time arguing their corner then? They don't need your help, I'm sure. Your use of the 'Doctor' title seems to have an underlying motive of some kind, so I just thought I'd remind you it doesn't convey anything. The days of respecting people because of their profession are long gone. All the vicars exposed by the NotW, all the lying politicians and misbehaving doctors saw to that.
I can guess why the group didn't want to return to Portugal and I doubt if it had anything to do with anyone's 'attitude'.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 12, 2015, 05:13:31 PM
Why do you spend your time arguing their corner then? They don't need your help, I'm sure. Your use of the 'Doctor' title seems to have an underlying motive of some kind, so I just thought I'd remind you it doesn't convey anything. The days of respecting people because of their profession are long gone. All the vicars exposed by the NotW, all the lying politicians and misbehaving doctors saw to that.
I can guess why the group didn't want to return to Portugal and I doubt if it had anything to do with anyone's 'attitude'.
In the interests of even handedness I trust you will rebuke the next person who refers to Amaral as Dr Amaral...?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 05:15:24 PM
Why do you spend your time arguing their corner then? They don't need your help, I'm sure. Your use of the 'Doctor' title seems to have an underlying motive of some kind, so I just thought I'd remind you it doesn't convey anything. The days of respecting people because of their profession are long gone. All the vicars exposed by the NotW, all the lying politicians and misbehaving doctors saw to that.
I can guess why the group didn't want to return to Portugal and I doubt if it had anything to do with anyone's 'attitude'.
I spend my time arguing the corner of justice because you keep attacking them....you can guess why they didn't return to Portugal and that's all it is..a guess....and wrong..
I wonder if you are so anti doctor when you have a seriously ill member of the family and the doctor saves their life
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2015, 05:15:30 PM
no it doesn't...it's one of the basic rules of justice...the right to silence... We've gone over the refusal before..if you look at the behaviour of the PJ in lying to the mccanns...not being able to understand the evidence ..conduct in the cipriano case....no one in their right minds would have returned
A right to silence is nought to do with attempting to pervert the course of justice. Only someone with something to hide would have refused to cooperate.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 05:17:28 PM
A right to silence is nought to do with attempting to pervert the course of justice. Only someone with something to hide would have refused to cooperate.
what rubbish....Colin Stagg refused to co operate and he was proved innocent
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2015, 05:20:17 PM
I spend my time arguing the corner of justice because you keep attacking them....you can guess why they didn't return to Portugal and that's all it is..a guess....and wrong..
I wonder if you are so anti doctor when you have a seriously ill member of the family and the doctor saves their life
Doubting someone's word is not 'attacking' it's doubting. You are funny, denying the correctness of my guesses even when you've no idea what they are. Doctors made my seriously ill family member worse a few years ago actually. They make mistakes and commit crimes and tell lies and take drugs and beat their wives and cheat on their husbands just like everyone else. Their job doesn't make any difference to other aspects of their lives.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2015, 05:29:05 PM
Doubting someone's word is not 'attacking' it's doubting. You are funny, denying the correctness of my guesses even when you've no idea what they are. Doctors made my seriously ill family member worse a few years ago actually. They make mistakes and commit crimes and tell lies and take drugs and beat their wives and cheat on their husbands just like everyone else. Their job doesn't make any difference to other aspects of their lives.
Indeed.
The mccanns supporters want to make the 'drs' paragons of virtue, and magnify them as 'victims'.
It won't wash.
Madeleine was and remains the victim, not them.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 05:34:41 PM
Doubting someone's word is not 'attacking' it's doubting. You are funny, denying the correctness of my guesses even when you've no idea what they are. Doctors made my seriously ill family member worse a few years ago actually. They make mistakes and commit crimes and tell lies and take drugs and beat their wives and cheat on their husbands just like everyone else. Their job doesn't make any difference to other aspects of their lives.
I deliberately made that statement to elicit a response from you that I expected...you have a personal grudge against doctors . I doubt the doctors made your family member worse...just you getting everything back to front again
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 05:38:07 PM
I deliberately made that statement to elicit a response from you that I expected...you have a personal grudge against doctors . I doubt the doctors made your family member worse...just you getting everything back to front again
You know nothing. Another doctor gave up his weekend off to care for my family member who recovered.. There are good doctors, bad doctors, overworked doctors and lazy doctors. Some even tell lies, i expect. They are just people with a certain set of skills. Sometimes they get things right, sometimes they don't. If anyone gets things back to front it's not me.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 05:46:30 PM
You know nothing. Another doctor gave up his weekend off to care for my family member who recovered.. There are good doctors, bad doctors, overworked doctors and lazy doctors. Some even tell lies, i expect. They are just people with a certain set of skills. Sometimes they get things right, sometimes they don't. If anyone gets things back to front it's not me.
I think they are rather special people with a vast set of skills who save lives on a daily basis...I think most people give them the respect they deserve...that excludes you of course
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on July 12, 2015, 05:53:58 PM
I think they are rather special people with a vast set of skills who save lives on a daily basis...I think most people give them the respect they deserve...that excludes you of course
Special people dave ?
They trained for a job.
Just like other people do.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on July 12, 2015, 05:58:21 PM
You do not only do other posters a disservice by supposing they have claimed all Polícia Judiciária Officers are as corrupt as those surrounding Mr Amaral ... you do the PJ itself a disservice. It should be noted that ordinary hard working officers do not appreciate being associated with those who have faced criminal charges and convictions.
Paulo Rebelo gives an indication of how an investigation should be conducted, reconstruction and all ... his predecessor exemplified the obverse.
'They believe us': Portuguese police finally re-enact Madeleine abduction Last updated at 13:09 30 October 2007
Kate and Gerry McCann have received a massive boost as Portuguese police have finally decided to reconstruct what happened on the night that Madeleine disappeared.
In a clear sign that Portuguese police are moving back towards the possibility that the four-year old was abducted the new head of the Portuguese police investigation returned to the McCanns' apartment last night to re-enact a possible abduction.
Paulo Rebelo and six detectives appeared to be testing Kate and Gerry McCann's belief that their daughter was snatched from the two-bedroom flat.
They spent almost three hours at the apartment where Madeleine was left sleeping with two-year-old twins Sean and Amelie on May 3.They seemed to be focusing on windows and patio doors where an abductor could have gained entry.
Witnesses saw the team passing a large blue blanket through a bedroom window.
They said the detectives appeared to be checking whether it would be possible for one person to take a child out or if they would have needed an accomplice.
Interesting that after that 'reconstitution' Rebelo requested that another reconstitution take place with the main protagonists. Doesn't sound that he was too convinced of the McCann's story either.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 12, 2015, 06:04:25 PM
Why do you spend your time arguing their corner then? They don't need your help, I'm sure. Your use of the 'Doctor' title seems to have an underlying motive of some kind, so I just thought I'd remind you it doesn't convey anything. The days of respecting people because of their profession are long gone. All the vicars exposed by the NotW, all the lying politicians and misbehaving doctors saw to that.
I can guess why the group didn't want to return to Portugal and I doubt if it had anything to do with anyone's 'attitude'.
We did have a discussion on the forum regarding appropriate titles. There was some discussion on whether or not Dr Gerry McCann was indeed a more illustrious Mr rather then an ordinary MD, if memory serves me well. Mr Amaral's right to the Dr prefix was also discussed ... perhaps before your present time as a poster ... and it was decided that he had no entitlement. Which is when I stopped referring to him as Dr and have called him Mr ever since.
What an utterly strange, inconsequential and revealing thing to get all het up about ... and I don't really think it is appropriate to question my motives particularly as I would never be so impolite to question yours or any other poster's.
Back to the nitty gritty though. If any person who found themselves in the same situation as the tapas group doctors and Jez Wilkins voluntarily returned to submit their lives to a regime experience of which gave them every right to suspect was Hell bent on setting their innocent friends and themselves up for a crime they did not commit ... I would consider them have no understanding of the Inquisitorial System of Portuguese Justice.
Logically there was nothing a reconstitution would contribute to finding Madeleine McCann for the simple reason all these people could do was reiterate what the investigation already knew about their whereabouts on the night Madeleine vanished.
I can only imagine the delight of the perpetrator of this crime at the opprobrium being heaped on innocents and no official body investigating him / her. Bet he's not feeling as secure as s/he has been ... now that s/he is being actively looked for at long last ... and without the unnecessary reconstitution being enacted proving it was never needed in the first place.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2015, 06:27:40 PM
The political help they received was quite extraordinary.
They simply refused to fully cooperate fully with the investigation.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this reconstitution was going to be carried out: -------
PJ to Jez Wilkins: We would like you to set off on your walk at the same time you did last year.
Jez to PJ: But I don't know what the exact time was. I can make an educated guess but what if I get it wrong and miss Gerry? What then? Do you want me to have another go at it starting out at a different time or what?
PJ to Jez Erm.........................................................??
Can you suggest what the PJ's answer would be Stephen?
Same goes for JT - who also could only give an approximate time of when she left the table after Gerry - (5 to 10 mins). She would only have to be wrong by a minute or two - and Gerry could be back at the table before she even left it. Or would he and Jez be told to hang about in the street until she did arrive? In which case it wouldn't be a true recon would it?
It is simply not humanly possible for 10 people to accurately recreate their movements from a night 12 month prior and the only thing an attempted recon would do - is prove that to be the case.
If you - or anyone else think differently then I would be interested to hear how you think the problem of the approximate times would be dealt with by the PJ.
I keep asking this question, but no-one replies - so I won't hold my breath.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2015, 06:33:45 PM
We did have a discussion on the forum regarding appropriate titles. There was some discussion on whether or not Dr Gerry McCann was indeed a more illustrious Mr rather then an ordinary MD, if memory serves me well. Mr Amaral's right to the Dr prefix was also discussed ... perhaps before your present time as a poster ... and it was decided that he had no entitlement. Which is when I stopped referring to him as Dr and have called him Mr ever since.
What an utterly strange, inconsequential and revealing thing to get all het up about ... and I don't really think it is appropriate to question my motives particularly as I would never be so impolite to question yours or any other poster's.
Back to the nitty gritty though. If any person who found themselves in the same situation as the tapas group doctors and Jez Wilkins voluntarily returned to submit their lives to a regime experience of which gave them every right to suspect was Hell bent on setting their innocent friends and themselves up for a crime they did not commit ... I would consider them have no understanding of the Inquisitorial System of Portuguese Justice.
Logically there was nothing a reconstitution would contribute to finding Madeleine McCann for the simple reason all these people could do was reiterate what the investigation already knew about their whereabouts on the night Madeleine vanished.
I can only imagine the delight of the perpetrator of this crime at the opprobrium being heaped on innocents and no official body investigating him / her. Bet he's not feeling as secure as s/he has been ... now that s/he is being actively looked for at long last ... and without the unnecessary reconstitution being enacted proving it was never needed in the first place.
The bottom line which you repeatedly ignore is very simple.
You don't know that the mccanns ever told the truth.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2015, 06:36:28 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this reconstitution was going to be carried out: -------
PJ to Jez Wilkins: We would like you to set off on your walk at the same time you did last year.
Jez to PJ: But I don't know what the exact time was. I can make an educated guess but what if I get it wrong and miss Gerry? What then? Do you want me to have another go at it starting out at a different time or what?
PJ to Jez Erm.........................................................??
Can you suggest what the PJ's answer would be Stephen?
Same goes for JT - who also could only give an approximate time of when she left the table after Gerry - (5 to 10 mins). She would only have to be wrong by a minute or two - and Gerry could be back at the table before she even left it. Or would he and Jez be told to hang about in the street until she did arrive? In which case it wouldn't be a true recon would it?
It is simply not humanly possible for 10 people to accurately recreate their movements from a night 12 month prior and the only thing an attempted recon would do - is prove that to be the case.
If you - or anyone else think differently then I would be interested to hear how you think the problem of the approximate times would be dealt with by the PJ.
I keep asking this question, but no-one replies - so I won't hold my breath.
No idea, Benice.
Depending on your motive, you could make everyone repeat a sequence of actions until you find one that appears to be suitably physically impossible and damning and then you present that one to the prosecutor.
Personally, I very much doubt that Rebelo would have done that as he seems to have been a decent cop as far as I've been able to gather.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 12, 2015, 07:27:39 PM
Bearing in mind the nature of the case and the exceptional circumstances of the events.
One thing you can be sure of, the mccanns and some of their associates know exactly what happened on the night Madeleine disappeared.
There remains no excuse.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 12, 2015, 07:51:23 PM
Depending on your motive, you could make everyone repeat a sequence of actions until you find one that appears to be suitably physically impossible and damning and then you present that one to the prosecutor.
Personally, I very much doubt that Rebelo would have done that as he seems to have been a decent cop as far as I've been able to gather.
Pure speculation on my part Carana, but IMO the PJ had a pretty good idea that the group would not agree to come and in fact were banking on it. Hence the less than encouraging replies imo to some of their queries.
For instance, not being able to guarantee there would be no press intrusion and also telling them not to bring their children with them - that last instruction alone would be enough to raise my suspicions. Also stipulating that unless they all agreed to go then it wouldn't take place.
There is no way that any of the group had an iota of trust in the PJ - after watching with horror what had happened to their innocent friends - as well as the abuse they themselves had suffered in the PT press - and I'm sure the PJ realised that.
I think the PJ were eager to shelve the case and the eventual refusal of the group to attend gave the PJ a 'face-saving' reason to do that.
As I say - pure speculation on my part, but I don't think the PJ themselves believed that an accurate recon was possible - as it's not rocket science to see the reasons why it was totally unviable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 12, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
Pure speculation on my part Carana, but IMO the PJ had a pretty good idea that the group would not agree to come and in fact were banking on it. Hence the less than encouraging replies imo to some of their queries.
For instance, not being able to guarantee there would be no press intrusion and also telling them not to bring their children with them - that last instruction alone would be enough to raise my suspicions. Also stipulating that unless they all agreed to go then it wouldn't take place.
There is no way that any of the group had an iota of trust in the PJ - after watching with horror what had happened to their innocent friends - as well as the abuse they themselves had suffered in the PT press - and I'm sure the PJ realised that.
I think the PJ were eager to shelve the case and the eventual refusal of the group to attend gave the PJ a 'face-saving' reason to do that.
As I say - pure speculation on my part, but I don't think the PJ themselves believed that an accurate recon was possible - as it's not rocket science to see the reasons why it was totally unviable.
I agree that it has all the hallmarks of a 'face saving' exercise.
From what I have read in the press and seen on the media at the time and subsequently on video, I think Rebelo must have found that to get anywhere with continuing the investigation it would be necessary to discard the previous investigation and go back to square one.
Perhaps the Portuguese authorities determined there was neither the time, the money or the inclination to confirm the criticisms of the foreign press by doing so.
I have just been watching Mr Amaral's documentary on Madeleine's case which unblushingly claims to be a 'reconstitution'.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 05:14:25 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how this reconstitution was going to be carried out: -------
PJ to Jez Wilkins: We would like you to set off on your walk at the same time you did last year.
Jez to PJ: But I don't know what the exact time was. I can make an educated guess but what if I get it wrong and miss Gerry? What then? Do you want me to have another go at it starting out at a different time or what?
PJ to Jez Erm.........................................................??
Can you suggest what the PJ's answer would be Stephen?
Same goes for JT - who also could only give an approximate time of when she left the table after Gerry - (5 to 10 mins). She would only have to be wrong by a minute or two - and Gerry could be back at the table before she even left it. Or would he and Jez be told to hang about in the street until she did arrive? In which case it wouldn't be a true recon would it?
It is simply not humanly possible for 10 people to accurately recreate their movements from a night 12 month prior and the only thing an attempted recon would do - is prove that to be the case.
If you - or anyone else think differently then I would be interested to hear how you think the problem of the approximate times would be dealt with by the PJ.
I keep asking this question, but no-one replies - so I won't hold my breath.
It was perfectly feasible and is a normal procedure in Portugal, France and many other countries. Its is amazing what happens when you bring a group of people together to reenact an event, it is quite amazing how things fall into place or stand out as impossible. The point in all of this is that a handful of people thought they knew better than the police and refused to participate for their own reasons. People are perfectly right to question their motives.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 13, 2015, 05:27:24 PM
It was perfectly feasible and is a normal procedure in Portugal, France and many other countries. Its is amazing what happens when you bring a group of people together to reenact an event, it is quite amazing how things fall into place or stand out as impossible. The point in all of this is that a handful of people thought they were above the Law and decided not to participate for whatever reason.
I'm sure recons are very valuable in certain instances John. However, I have never heard of one which it was proposed would last 5.1/2 hours.
IIRC the group did not believe what was proposed would help to find out what happened to Madeleine - and were suspicious of the PJ's agenda. And quite rightly so IMO.
Once Jez Wilkins had said he wasn't going - then it was all over anyway.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 05:27:48 PM
Pure speculation on my part Carana, but IMO the PJ had a pretty good idea that the group would not agree to come and in fact were banking on it. Hence the less than encouraging replies imo to some of their queries.
For instance, not being able to guarantee there would be no press intrusion and also telling them not to bring their children with them - that last instruction alone would be enough to raise my suspicions. Also stipulating that unless they all agreed to go then it wouldn't take place.
There is no way that any of the group had an iota of trust in the PJ - after watching with horror what had happened to their innocent friends - as well as the abuse they themselves had suffered in the PT press - and I'm sure the PJ realised that.
I think the PJ were eager to shelve the case and the eventual refusal of the group to attend gave the PJ a 'face-saving' reason to do that.
As I say - pure speculation on my part, but I don't think the PJ themselves believed that an accurate recon was possible - as it's not rocket science to see the reasons why it was totally unviable.
What was it that happened to the 'innocent' friends that was so dreadful? Was it the fact that they were questioned as witnesses or designated arguidos?
Why shouldn't the police question parents in a missing child case? It happens everywhere, even in the UK.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Lace on July 13, 2015, 05:39:04 PM
The McCann's agreed to go, I don't know why they couldn't have used actors for the rest of the group, they would have had the main players it was the McCann's child who disappeared after all.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 05:41:19 PM
I'm sure recons are very valuable in certain instances John. However, I have never heard of one which it was proposed would last 5.1/2 hours.
IIRC the group did not believe what was proposed would help to find out what happened to Madeleine - and were suspicious of the PJ's agenda. And quite rightly so IMO.
Once Jez Wilkins had said he wasn't going - then it was all over anyway.
It takes a long time to put together a reconstitution, in some instances it could run into days and not hours. Scenes are played out several times until an accurate representation is achieved and accepted by the police. British people are not familiar with reconstitutions since it is usually a reconstruction using police officers or actors who take part in the UK equivalent.
I have no doubt those asked to participate were afraid of what they were getting themselves into but if they had nothing to hide they should have agreed to take part. It wasn't their place to second-guess the police, it was their duty to do all and everything which investigators asked for in an attempt to reconstruct events that evening so that the investigation could move forward.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 05:57:49 PM
It takes a long time to put together a reconstitution, in some instances it could run into days and not hours. Scenes are played out several times until an accurate representation is achieved and accepted by the police. British people are not familiar with reconstitutions since it is usually a reconstruction using police officers or actors who take part in the UK equivalent.
I have no doubt those asked to participate were afraid of what they were getting themselves into but if they had nothing to hide they should have agreed to take part. It wasn't their place to second-guess the police, it was their duty to do all and everything which investigators asked for in an attempt to reconstruct events that evening so that the investigation could move forward.
You can never recreate things a second time the way they happened the first time.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 06:00:57 PM
It takes a long time to put together a reconstitution, in some instances it could run into days and not hours. Scenes are played out several times until an accurate representation is achieved and accepted by the police. British people are not familiar with reconstitutions since it is usually a reconstruction using police officers or actors who take part in the UK equivalent.
I have no doubt those asked to participate were afraid of what they were getting themselves into but if they had nothing to hide they should have agreed to take part. It wasn't their place to second-guess the police, it was their duty to do all and everything which investigators asked for in an attempt to reconstruct events that evening so that the investigation could move forward.
And if, as Jez Wilkins and the McCanns and their friends believed that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger, how do you think a reconstruction of their own movements would have convinced them that this reconstitution was in anyone's best interests?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 06:03:12 PM
What was it that happened to the 'innocent' friends that was so dreadful? Was it the fact that they were questioned as witnesses or designated arguidos?
Why shouldn't the police question parents in a missing child case? It happens everywhere, even in the UK.
It is proper procedure to immediately interview the parents of a missing child
(a) to get as much information about the child as possible (b) to check out if there is any reason why they might be considered suspect and to rule them of interest or not
In missing child investigations in the UK I cannot think of one when leaks from the investigation to the press encouraged speculation about the parents' body language and appearance or whether the father of the missing child was the genetic parent.
Quote Criminal investigations in Portugal are governed by a secrecy clause in its penal code, which means there are no official press briefings.[22] One journalist wrote that this leads to a culture of "leak, not speak," and a proliferation of gossip that is hard for others to counter without breaking the law.[60] A Polícia Judiciária officer acknowledged in 2010 that they had been suspicious of the McCanns from the start, because the couple turned the inquiry into what the officer called a "media circus." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Madeleine_McCann
In Britain controlled police press releases keep the public informed. The sad thing is that this could have happened in Madeleine McCann's case as missing people cases can be released from the secrecy requirement of the Criminal Code if the proper request is submitted to the Portuguese Authorities.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 13, 2015, 06:05:01 PM
What was it that happened to the 'innocent' friends that was so dreadful? Was it the fact that they were questioned as witnesses or designated arguidos?
Why shouldn't the police question parents in a missing child case?
There is nothing wrong in questioning the parents in depth - and right at the beginning so that they could be ruled in or out.
Maybe if Amaral had actually met the McCanns and spoken to them himself, he would have been in a better position to judge/assess them. Why he didn't do that is incomprehensible to me.
IMO the attempted trial by media - based on leaks from the PJ was a disgraceful way to treat them, and showed a cynical contempt by the PJ for their own secrecy laws - which they simply used as weapon, knowing that the McCanns had no way of rebutting the dreadful allegations being made.
Also I've no doubt that finding out that Amaral was an arguido himself, suspected of being involved in the torture of a defenceless woman, in his last (and only) missing child case - hardly inspired either the McCanns or their friends to have confidence in him. Quite the opposite in fact. And who could blame them?
He should never have been let near the case. imo.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 06:13:03 PM
There is nothing wrong in questioning the parents in depth - and right at the beginning so that they could be ruled in or out.
Maybe if Amaral had actually met the McCanns and spoken to them himself, he would have been in a better position to judge/assess them. Why he didn't do that is incomprehensible to me.
IMO the attempted trial by media - based on leaks from the PJ was a disgraceful way to treat them, and showed a cynical contempt by the PJ for their own secrecy laws - which they simply used as weapon, knowing that the McCanns had no way of rebutting the dreadful allegations being made.
Also I've no doubt that finding out that Amaral was an arguido himself, suspected of being involved in the torture of a defenceless woman, in his last (and only) missing child case - hardly inspired either the McCanns or their friends to have confidence in him. Quite the opposite in fact. And who could blame them?
He should never have been let near the case. imo.
I do not understand why he was not told to take 'gardening leave' on the 4th.
I think it probably illustrates perfectly how efficiently a secrecy code can be maintained when it suits ... I don't think the press got a sniff of it at the time.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 06:42:57 PM
And if, as Jez Wilkins and the McCanns and their friends believed that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger, how do you think a reconstruction of their own movements would have convinced them that this reconstitution was in anyone's best interests?
Nobody saw an abductor, at least that was DCI Redwood told us so the PJ were correct to pursue all options.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 06:55:07 PM
It takes a long time to put together a reconstitution, in some instances it could run into days and not hours. Scenes are played out several times until an accurate representation is achieved and accepted by the police. British people are not familiar with reconstitutions since it is usually a reconstruction using police officers or actors who take part in the UK equivalent.
I have no doubt those asked to participate were afraid of what they were getting themselves into but if they had nothing to hide they should have agreed to take part. It wasn't their place to second-guess the police, it was their duty to do all and everything which investigators asked for in an attempt to reconstruct events that evening so that the investigation could move forward.
It's the only case I've ever heard of where people have decided immediately what crime was committed, employed private investigators to carry out a parallel investigation and refused to help the police with their enquiries.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 06:55:24 PM
There is nothing wrong in questioning the parents in depth - and right at the beginning so that they could be ruled in or out.
Maybe if Amaral had actually met the McCanns and spoken to them himself, he would have been in a better position to judge/assess them. Why he didn't do that is incomprehensible to me.
IMO the attempted trial by media - based on leaks from the PJ was a disgraceful way to treat them, and showed a cynical contempt by the PJ for their own secrecy laws - which they simply used as weapon, knowing that the McCanns had no way of rebutting the dreadful allegations being made.
Also I've no doubt that finding out that Amaral was an arguido himself, suspected of being involved in the torture of a defenceless woman, in his last (and only) missing child case - hardly inspired either the McCanns or their friends to have confidence in him. Quite the opposite in fact. And who could blame them?
He should never have been let near the case. imo.
It wasn't his job to speak to them Benice. In the UK Superintendents don't interview suspects.
The arguido status was no impediment to Gonçalo Amaral working as normal otherwise he would have been suspended. If every police officer in Portugal who has a complaint lodged against them were suspended there would be pitiful few of them to patrol the streets.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 06:58:46 PM
It's the only case I've ever heard of where people have decided immediately what crime was committed, employed private investigators to carry out a parallel investigation and refused to help the police with their enquiries.
Give over with the "refusing to help the police with their enquiries" crap, thanks.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 07:04:25 PM
Yes it is. You suggested the PJ should have been looking for an abductor instead of interrogating the tapas-9. I merely pointed out that nobody saw any abductor so all bets were valid including investigating the group itself and Robert Murat.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 07:05:42 PM
Yes it is. You suggested the PJ should have been looking for an abductor instead of interrogating the tapas-9. I merely pointed out that nobody saw any abductor so all bets were valid including investigating the group itself and Robert Murat.
No I did not suggest that - I said that in the opinions of the McCanns, their friends and Gez Wilkins, Madeleine was taken in an abduction and I am therefore wanting to know - what merit would any of THEM see in a police reconstruction of THEIR OWN movements as far as helping to find Madeleine was concerned?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: misty on July 13, 2015, 07:09:35 PM
I've often wondered what direction the investigation would have taken had Amaral & Almeida not been coordinating affairs. Did the Portuguese not have a team of specialist detectives who could have appointed to this unique & sensitive case when it quickly became clear Madeleine wasn't going to be found? Maybe a reconstitution would have been requested almost immediately rather than dithering for 5 months & more.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 07:12:11 PM
No I did not suggest that - I said that in the opinions of the McCanns, their friends and Gez Wilkins, Madeleine was taken in an abduction and I am therefore wanting to know - what merit would any of THEM see in a police reconstruction of THEIR OWN movements as far as helping to find Madeleine was concerned?
They were not detectives so it was not their call. The point of the reconstitution was to rule them out but as the Attorney General so succinctly declared in his final report, the parents lost that opportunity because of the behaviour of their friends.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 07:12:37 PM
No I did not suggest that - I said that in the opinions of the McCanns, their friends and Gez Wilkins, Madeleine was taken in an abduction and I am therefore wanting to know - what merit would any of THEM see in a police reconstruction of THEIR OWN movements as far as helping to find Madeleine was concerned?
Since when were the mccanns coordinating the investigation ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 07:21:35 PM
They were not detectives so it was not their call. The point of the reconstitution was to rule them out but as the Attorney General so succinctly declared in his final report, the parents lost that opportunity because of the behaviour of their friends.
Again you are failing to grasp the point or stubbornly refusing to see this "reconstitution" from the point of view of the 10 or more people asked to take part who firmly believed that Madeleine was abducted and that they themselves played no part in the disappearance. Why did (for example) Dianne Webster need to rule herself out? Or Gez Wilkins?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 07:22:56 PM
Again you are failing to grasp the point or stubbornly refusing to see this "reconstitution" from the point of view of the 10 or more people asked to take part who firmly believed that Madeleine was abducted and that they themselves played no part in the disappearance. Why did (for example) Dianne Webster need to rule herself out? Or Gez Wilkins?
Why indeed Alf? When the evidence failed to support stranger abduction the PJ were entitled to pursue other possibilities.
The other point I find curious is why Gerry McCann considered fleeing the country when he realised the PJ were going to designate him and Kate as arguidos. For an intelligent person did he so completely fail to comprehend the status that he considered such a move?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 07:52:10 PM
What a nasty comment, but not surprising. Refusing to do a reconstitution = refusing to help the police with their enquiries.
What a nasty comment? Do behave. I would call blatant lies "nasty comments".
You said:
Quote
It's the only case I've ever heard of where people have decided immediately what crime was committed, employed private investigators to carry out a parallel investigation and refused to help the police with their enquiries.
Now, provide evidence that the McCanns REFUSED to do a reconstitution. Furthermore provide evidence that the McCanns refused to help the police with their enquiries.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 07:54:57 PM
Why indeed Alf? When the evidence failed to support stranger abduction the PJ were entitled to pursue other possibilities.
The other point I find curious is why Gerry McCann considered fleeing the country when he realised the PJ were going to designate him and Kate as arguidos. For an intelligent person did he so completely fail to comprehend the status that he considered such a move?
So Dianne Webster and Gez Wilkins needed to rule themselves out of the investigation did they, despite the fact that very obviously had nothing to do with the disappearance (unless maybe you think there's a chance that they did...?)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 08:02:14 PM
So Dianne Webster and Gez Wilkins needed to rule themselves out of the investigation did they, despite the fact that very obviously had nothing to do with the disappearance (unless maybe you think there's a chance that they did...?)
Weren't they potential witnesses for the investigation and for corroboration of the mccanns version of events ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 08:09:59 PM
What a nasty comment? Do behave. I would call blatant lies "nasty comments".
You said:
Now, provide evidence that the McCanns REFUSED to do a reconstitution. Furthermore provide evidence that the McCanns refused to help the police with their enquiries.
Why are you asking me for evidence that the McCanns refused to do a reconstitution? I never said they did. They couldn't, as arguidos. Their friends did though. When Kate McCann refused to answer police questions she was refusing to help police with their inquiries.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 13, 2015, 08:28:55 PM
No I did not suggest that - I said that in the opinions of the McCanns, their friends and Gez Wilkins, Madeleine was taken in an abduction and I am therefore wanting to know - what merit would any of THEM see in a police reconstruction of THEIR OWN movements as far as helping to find Madeleine was concerned?
You do not know Madeleine was abducted when one of them could have been responsible for her disappearance. They were checking regular according to them. 15 movements to and from the apartments in under 90 minutes to be precise before she was reported missing. Every 6 minutes that apartment was passed on average and that's not including Jez talking outside it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:15:23 PM
No I did not suggest that - I said that in the opinions of the McCanns, their friends and Gez Wilkins, Madeleine was taken in an abduction and I am therefore wanting to know - what merit would any of THEM see in a police reconstruction of THEIR OWN movements as far as helping to find Madeleine was concerned?
Arguido and witnesses' "opinions" should trump police calls now? What do you think British police might think of their attitude if it were their case?
As for the Mccanns, they did not refuse, they couldn't refuse, but they made their criticism, questions and abhorrence, along with the plea "havent we been through enough" at the suggestion very plain indeed when interviewed in the Uk about it.
As for the suggestion that their refusal was not a non cooperation with police, then what was it?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 09:20:15 PM
Why are you asking me for evidence that the McCanns refused to do a reconstitution? I never said they did. They couldn't, as arguidos. Their friends did though. When Kate McCann refused to answer police questions she was refusing to help police with their inquiries.
Which people were you talking about when you wrote this?
Quote
It's the only case I've ever heard of where people have decided immediately what crime was committed, employed private investigators to carry out a parallel investigation and refused to help the police with their enquiries.
You claim these people did not co-operate by refusing to take part in a reconstitution. The only people who employed private investigators were the McCanns, ergo you must have meant them! Kate did refuse to answer police questions on one day out of many months in Portugal, Gerry co-operated fully however, but cumulatively this equates to "refusing to help the police with their enquiries" in your book.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 09:36:04 PM
You do not know Madeleine was abducted when one of them could have been responsible for her disappearance. They were checking regular according to them. 15 movements to and from the apartments in under 90 minutes to be precise before she was reported missing. Every 6 minutes that apartment was passed on average and that's not including Jez talking outside it.
Exactly. Gerald McCann said the children's bedroom door had moved when he checked. Between 8.30pm and 9.05pm, however, the McCanns went to the tapas followed by Jane Tanner. Then came Matthew and Rachael followed by the Paynes, who met Matthew on his way back. As soon as he returned Gerald set off to the.apartments. At some point during this half hour Jeremy Wilkins left Block 4 also. Anyone going into the McCann's apartment to move that door must have been very fast, very daring and more or less invisible. The reconstitution would have demonstrated whether it was possible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 13, 2015, 09:44:33 PM
You do not know Madeleine was abducted when one of them could have been responsible for her disappearance. They were checking regular according to them. 15 movements to and from the apartments in under 90 minutes to be precise before she was reported missing. Every 6 minutes that apartment was passed on average and that's not including Jez talking outside it.
All completely beside the point I was making which was not about what you or I think but what the McCanns and their friends would have thought about the merits of a reconstitution of their own movements when it was their belief that an abductor had taken Madeleine.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 13, 2015, 09:51:15 PM
It was like Spaghetti Junction around Ocean Club what with some of the tapas-9 meandering back and forth between the restaurant and the apartments, checks being made on the children every 15 minutes, tourists out walking their babes in prams while yet others according to Redwood were wandering around carrying children in their arms. Not to mention the resort staff coming and going and locals visiting their boyfriends next door, people standing on their balconies observing the comings and goings next door and others apparently standing in the shadows having a fag.
When the bloodhell did a stranger have an opportunity to steal a child out of an apartment and make off with her totally unseen? &%+((£
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:10:47 PM
It was like Spaghetti Junction around Ocean Club what with some of the tapas-9 meandering back and forth between the restaurant and the apartments, checks being made on the children every 15 minutes, tourists out walking their babes in prams while yet others according to Redwood were wandering around carrying children in their arms. Not to mention the resort staff coming and going and locals visiting their boyfriends next door, people standing on their balconies observing the comings and goings next door and others apparently standing in the shadows having a fag.
When the bloodhell did a stranger have an opportunity to steal a child out of an apartment and make off with her totally unseen? &%+((£
Would have been easier taking them out in their prams, safer than being left alone, out of sight and out of hearing and the parents jumping up and down every so often, wondering if theyre ok, but on checking didnt actualky check they were, just listened!!!and nod off whenever they wanted to..if kids want to sleep they will sleep, and have some Tapas food as well
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 11:57:38 PM
Which people were you talking about when you wrote this?
You claim these people did not co-operate by refusing to take part in a reconstitution. The only people who employed private investigators were the McCanns, ergo you must have meant them! Kate did refuse to answer police questions on one day out of many months in Portugal, Gerry co-operated fully however, but cumulatively this equates to "refusing to help the police with their enquiries" in your book.
When the forty eight questions had anything at all to do with finding Madeleine McCann they had all been answered during many hours of questioning. When the forty eight questions were put to Madeleine's mother when she was constituted arguida without a shred of evidence to support it ... she exercised her right under the law not to answer questions which would be used to incriminate her.
Funny that it is ignored that Madeleine's father answered all the questions put to him.
**snip September 7, 2007. Kate McCann entered the Polícia Judiciária in Portimão in the morning and the questioning extended into the evening.
**snip Kate began by replying all the questions, but when she was made an arguida, she stopped talking.
**snip Within the process, you were shown films of cynotechnical inspection of forensic character, where the dogs can be seen marking indications of human cadaver odour and equally human blood traces, and only of human origin, as well as all the comments that were made by the responsible expert. After the visualization, and after cadaver odour was signaled in your bedroom next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa that was pushed against the living room window, you said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood behind the sofa by the detection dog
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of cadaver odour in the boot of the vehicle that you rented a month after the disappearance?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood in the boot of the vehicle?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, upon being confronted with the result of the collection of Maddie’s DNA, which was analysed by a British lab, behind the sofa and inside the vehicle’s boot?
When the Drs McCann exited after being made arguidos they were met by a baying mob.
If no guarantee could be given to people that participating in a reconstitution would not expose them to similar treatment I think it would be extraordinary if they subjected themselves to such an experience.
Just as the forty eight questions were not designed to help in the search for Madeleine neither was the reconstitution.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 07:15:29 AM
'When the Drs McCann exited after being made arguidos they were met by a baying mob.'
You love your fantasies. ?{)(**
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 07:41:08 AM
When the forty eight questions had anything at all to do with finding Madeleine McCann they had all been answered during many hours of questioning. When the forty eight questions were put to Madeleine's mother when she was constituted arguida without a shred of evidence to support it ... she exercised her right under the law not to answer questions which would be used to incriminate her.
Funny that it is ignored that Madeleine's father answered all the questions put to him.
**snip September 7, 2007. Kate McCann entered the Polícia Judiciária in Portimão in the morning and the questioning extended into the evening.
**snip Kate began by replying all the questions, but when she was made an arguida, she stopped talking.
**snip Within the process, you were shown films of cynotechnical inspection of forensic character, where the dogs can be seen marking indications of human cadaver odour and equally human blood traces, and only of human origin, as well as all the comments that were made by the responsible expert. After the visualization, and after cadaver odour was signaled in your bedroom next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa that was pushed against the living room window, you said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood behind the sofa by the detection dog
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of cadaver odour in the boot of the vehicle that you rented a month after the disappearance?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood in the boot of the vehicle?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, upon being confronted with the result of the collection of Maddie’s DNA, which was analysed by a British lab, behind the sofa and inside the vehicle’s boot?
When the Drs McCann exited after being made arguidos they were met by a baying mob.
If no guarantee could be given to people that participating in a reconstitution would not expose them to similar treatment I think it would be extraordinary if they subjected themselves to such an experience.
Just as the forty eight questions were not designed to help in the search for Madeleine neither was the reconstitution.
Everything you say arises from your unshakable conviction that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger. I would be interested to know on what that conviction is based. The reconstitution could have supported that theory, which would have been helpful to all, so why refuse just because it might be uncomfortable? Surely people dedicated to finding Madeleine should have done whatever they could to convince everyone that their theory was possible?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 07:51:19 AM
As far as I know none of the members of the Tapas group had watches or mobile phones, so no way to tell the time. Therefore all the checking times they gave in their statements and timelines were guesses, not facts. Entering guesstimates of a timeline into a computer system gives you a guesstimate of a timeline, so how does that move anything forward?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 08:15:44 AM
As far as I know none of the members of the Tapas group had watches or mobile phones, so no way to tell the time. Therefore all the checking times they gave in their statements and timelines were guesses, not facts. Entering guesstimates of a timeline into a computer system gives you a guesstimate of a timeline, so how does that move anything forward?
how does a reconstitution, based on all that you have said above?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 09:09:16 AM
how does a reconstitution, based on all that you have said above?
When Gerald Mccann checked he said the door to the children's room had been moved. Given the timeline between 8.30pm and 9.05 pm a reconstitution may have shown if it was possible for anyone to enter the apartment during that time. Different methods of entry could have been tried to see if they were possible. Kate McCann could have demonstrated exactly how her fingerprints came to be on the window. I would be interested in when the food was ordered and when it arrived and who was there to eat it. In Matthews first statement he went and listened at 9.05pm after the Paynes arrived. He changed this later. Matthew says Gerald returned at 9.15pm, but Rachael says Gerald left to check at 9.15pm. By working in the food ordering and serving it would help to understand which guesses about times are correct.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 09:12:29 AM
When Gerald Mccann checked he said the door to the children's room had been moved. Given the timeline between 8.30pm and 9.05 pm a reconstitution may have shown if it was possible for anyone to enter the apartment during that time. Different methods of entry could have been tried to see if they were possible. Kate McCann could have demonstrated exactly how her fingerprints came to be on the window. I would be interested in when the food was ordered and when it arrived and who was there to eat it. In Matthews first statement he went and listened at 9.05pm after the Paynes arrived. He changed this later. Matthew says Gerald returned at 9.15pm, but Rachael says Gerald left to check at 9.15pm. By working in the food ordering and serving it would help to understand which guesses about times are correct.
Were the waiters and cook wearing watches then? I seem to remember that their times were all over the place too! Why do you not trust the Met? Do you believe they are incompetent?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 14, 2015, 11:46:05 AM
Were the waiters and cook wearing watches then? I seem to remember that their times were all over the place too! Why do you not trust the Met? Do you believe they are incompetent?
I thought Gerry stated that he looked at his watch, it was 10:03, so he told Kate it was time to go and check i.e. Gerry had a watch.
I have been comparing the phone times of the July 14 arguidos against the Tapas 9 checks. The bulk of those checking make it event driven rather than clock driven - a check before ordering, a check after eating starters and before mains, a check after mains. As it happens, the arguido phone times are a poor fit for the check times that are in the statements.
Moving on to the Met and whether they are competent or not. The actions to date do not generate confidence. 1) They have Tannerman going the wrong way re both crèche and destination. 2) The June 2014 dig in Luz was comical. 3) They claim the arguidos and witnesses of the July/Dec 2014 rounds were targeted, when the list shows they were anything but. 4) They have not visited the actual crime scene or the Smithman scene, making them as much armchair detectives as I am. They have no idea as to traffic flows within Luz. They have no idea how to get their hands on Smithman help in the event that Smithman is an innocent Portuguese male.
5) Heriberto has just had a request to access the Luz area phone data turned (by Portuguese authorities, not SY). SY is sitting on the key piece of information required to progress the case. I simply do not have the confidence that they know how to interpret it, given point 4.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
As far as I know none of the members of the Tapas group had watches or mobile phones, so no way to tell the time. Therefore all the checking times they gave in their statements and timelines were guesses, not facts. Entering guesstimates of a timeline into a computer system gives you a guesstimate of a timeline, so how does that move anything forward?
The Oldfields wore watches and we know Gerry did. Matt gave a time for Kate leaving the table 9:50 - much earlier than 10.
By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.
The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.
Noticing the disappearance KM returned in panic to the restaurant where the deponent was in order to tell her husband, GM.
I thought Gerry stated that he looked at his watch, it was 10:03, so he told Kate it was time to go and check i.e. Gerry had a watch.
I have been comparing the phone times of the July 14 arguidos against the Tapas 9 checks. The bulk of those checking make it event driven rather than clock driven - a check before ordering, a check after eating starters and before mains, a check after mains. As it happens, the arguido phone times are a poor fit for the check times that are in the statements.
Moving on to the Met and whether they are competent or not. The actions to date do not generate confidence. 1) They have Tannerman going the wrong way re both crèche and destination. 2) The June 2014 dig in Luz was comical. 3) They claim the arguidos and witnesses of the July/Dec 2014 rounds were targeted, when the list shows they were anything but. 4) They have not visited the actual crime scene or the Smithman scene, making them as much armchair detectives as I am. They have no idea as to traffic flows within Luz. They have no idea how to get their hands on Smithman help in the event that Smithman is an innocent Portuguese male.
5) Heriberto has just had a request to access the Luz area phone data turned (by Portuguese authorities, not SY). SY is sitting on the key piece of information required to progress the case. I simply do not have the confidence that they know how to interpret it, given point 4.
So you put yourself above the Met as far as this investigation is concerned. Who are you anyway and how do you know so much about what Operation Grange have and have not done? As you seem to know way more than the professionals then why haven't you solved this case?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 12:29:07 PM
Everything you say arises from your unshakable conviction that Madeleine was abducted by a stranger. I would be interested to know on what that conviction is based. The reconstitution could have supported that theory, which would have been helpful to all, so why refuse just because it might be uncomfortable? Surely people dedicated to finding Madeleine should have done whatever they could to convince everyone that their theory was possible?
I'm terribly sorry ... I fail to see the point you are making in response to my post which mentions neither abductor nor what my opinion of such may be.
Perhaps I did not make it clear despite putting the relevant fact in bold that Dr McCann had already answered the forty eight questions which cause you and other sceptics such angst.
This was to illustrate the causes of the total breakdown of trust between a group of innocent people who were of the opinion their innocent friends and perhaps by association themselves, were being set up by the Portuguese police.
They had watched their friends walk into a police station without a blemish on their character and walk out as suspects in their daughter's disappearance. Perhaps they had weighed up the odds of them taking part in a reconstitution with the same end result.
Doesn't answer Jez Wilkin's decision not to participate ... but his reason for not doing so must have been a valid one.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 12:33:35 PM
I'm terribly sorry ... I fail to see the point you are making in response to my post which mentions neither abductor nor what my opinion of such may be.
Perhaps I did not make it clear despite putting the relevant fact in bold that Dr McCann had already answered the forty eight questions which cause you and other sceptics such angst.
This was to illustrate the causes of the total breakdown of trust between a group of innocent people who were of the opinion their innocent friends and perhaps by association themselves, were being set up by the Portuguese police.
They had watched their friends walk into a police station without a blemish on their character and walk out as suspects in their daughter's disappearance. Perhaps they had weighed up the odds of them taking part in a reconstitution with the same end result.
Doesn't answer Jez Wilkin's decision not to participate ... but his reason for not doing so must have been a valid one.
The basic reason for the other mccanns not answering the questions was to avoid the possibility of inconsistent accounts.
As to who is innocent or guilty in this case, that has not been established, as charges have yet to be brought.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 12:42:36 PM
The basic reason for the other mccanns not answering the questions was to avoid the possibility of inconsistent accounts.
As to who is innocent or guilty in this case, that has not been established, as charges have yet to be brought.
What an odd response. All the individual members of the tapas group had already made statements ... how on earth could anything be made of "inconsistent accounts"?
You still haven't detailed how a reconstitution involving only this party could assist in the search for Madeleine, possibly because there is no stretch of the imagination which would enable it.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 12:58:15 PM
What an odd response. All the individual members of the tapas group had already made statements ... how on earth could anything be made of "inconsistent accounts"?
You still haven't detailed how a reconstitution involving only this party could assist in the search for Madeleine, possibly because there is no stretch of the imagination which would enable it.
It has been explained numerous times why a reconstruction was useful.
The other members of the group have not cooperated in agreeing to one.
They have given pathetic excuses.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: xtina on July 14, 2015, 01:25:48 PM
You still haven't detailed how a reconstitution involving only this party could assist in the search for Madeleine, possibly because there is no stretch of the imagination which would enable it.
wouldn't it have shown it was physically impossible to have made the checks ...that they said they did
like the time line ....how odd when all that is going on ...you can recollect times and by whom ....you would have thought only the last two checks would have been surfice.........unless there was an hidden agenda...like IMO ....busy recollecting times ...[no watches ]....instead of searching for maddie ....who could have been found at anytime......but they knew they were going to need that time line .....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: jassi on July 14, 2015, 01:33:32 PM
I thought Gerry stated that he looked at his watch, it was 10:03, so he told Kate it was time to go and check i.e. Gerry had a watch.
I have been comparing the phone times of the July 14 arguidos against the Tapas 9 checks. The bulk of those checking make it event driven rather than clock driven - a check before ordering, a check after eating starters and before mains, a check after mains. As it happens, the arguido phone times are a poor fit for the check times that are in the statements.
Moving on to the Met and whether they are competent or not. The actions to date do not generate confidence. 1) They have Tannerman going the wrong way re both crèche and destination. 2) The June 2014 dig in Luz was comical. 3) They claim the arguidos and witnesses of the July/Dec 2014 rounds were targeted, when the list shows they were anything but. 4) They have not visited the actual crime scene or the Smithman scene, making them as much armchair detectives as I am. They have no idea as to traffic flows within Luz. They have no idea how to get their hands on Smithman help in the event that Smithman is an innocent Portuguese male.
5) Heriberto has just had a request to access the Luz area phone data turned (by Portuguese authorities, not SY). SY is sitting on the key piece of information required to progress the case. I simply do not have the confidence that they know how to interpret it, given point 4.
There is some doubt about watches; Gerald's 10th May statement has this note;
important note: The following text inserted in brackets into Gerry McCanns statement [with no way to tell the time], has now been removed to eliminate any confusion. The bracketed text is the translators note, and not part of the original statement. Text before removal: Half and hour later, without anything to signal [with no way to tell the time], it being 22h03
Text now reads: Half and hour later without anything to signal, it being 22h03 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
I agree about SY, they have yet to show they are doing anything sensible, the crechman story was ridiculous.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 01:52:45 PM
Were the waiters and cook wearing watches then? I seem to remember that their times were all over the place too! Why do you not trust the Met? Do you believe they are incompetent?
No idea what the waiters and cooks had, it's not mentioned. You said the Met had HOLMES. I pointed out that, like any computer system, it's only as good as the info. you put into it. Inexact times are inexact times. The story about crecheman was unbelievable. The reason could be that they're incompetent or it could be that they just needed to get rid of him at any cost.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: xtina on July 14, 2015, 02:23:55 PM
No idea what the waiters and cooks had, it's not mentioned. You said the Met had HOLMES. I pointed out that, like any computer system, it's only as good as the info. you put into it. Inexact times are inexact times. The story about crecheman was unbelievable. The reason could be that they're incompetent or it could be that they just needed to get rid of him at any cost.
good point ...because how many years did it take for him to come forward .....where had he been ....to miss one of the most publicised stories of modern times....how come it took him so long to come forward...an you have never heard another thing of him since.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 02:30:27 PM
No idea what the waiters and cooks had, it's not mentioned. You said the Met had HOLMES. I pointed out that, like any computer system, it's only as good as the info. you put into it. Inexact times are inexact times. The story about crecheman was unbelievable. The reason could be that they're incompetent or it could be that they just needed to get rid of him at any cost.
Inexact times are inexact times whether you use a computer system or a physical reconstitution. The advantage of the former over the latter I would imagine is that you can run through numerous permutations without getting the protagonists to act out dozens of different scenarios.
AS for your comment that the Met needed to get rid of Tannerman at any cost - well why would they need to do that publicly? How would it help them to do this?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 02:48:46 PM
Inexact times are inexact times whether you use a computer system or a physical reconstitution. The advantage of the former over the latter I would imagine is that you can run through numerous permutations without getting the protagonists to act out dozens of different scenarios.
AS for your comment that the Met needed to get rid of Tannerman at any cost - well why would they need to do that publicly? How would it help them to do this?
HOLMES needed to take account of when the meals were ordered, served and eaten because most of the group referred to these events when speaking about the checks. I said perhaps the Met needed to get rid of Tannerman. I assume that's so they could concentrate attention on Smithman. Maybe HOLMES demonstrated beyond doubt that there was no opportunity whatsoever for Tannerman to be the abductor. There could have been a ten minute window between Matthew returning to the table and Jane Tanner leaving it to take over from Russell, however.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 04:18:10 PM
HOLMES needed to take account of when the meals were ordered, served and eaten because most of the group referred to these events when speaking about the checks. I said perhaps the Met needed to get rid of Tannerman. I assume that's so they could concentrate attention on Smithman. Maybe HOLMES demonstrated beyond doubt that there was no opportunity whatsoever for Tannerman to be the abductor. There could have been a ten minute window between Matthew returning to the table and Jane Tanner leaving it to take over from Russell, however.
Why are you assuming that HOLMES did not take account of when meals were ordered, served and eaten? In my opinion using such language as "getting rid of Tannerman at any cost" is hyperbolic and a little bit childish. The Met have eliminated that sighting based on the fact that someone matching JT's description of person and events has come forward and identified themselves. It is your choice to disbelieve what the Met are telling us, based I suppose on your ABC method of super-sleuthing...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 05:10:06 PM
By the way, he clarifies that that news had been communicated to all the friends who were in the Tapas by KM subsequent to her having personally been to her flat to check that her children were well.
The question asked, he relates that she had gone there alone to do that at 21:50.
Noticing the disappearance KM returned in panic to the restaurant where the deponent was in order to tell her husband, GM.
Sorry, pathfinder, I was using Mitchell's words (which he later changed anyway)
Clarence Mitchell backtracks on previous statement about watches
Mitchell said he was not surprised by the inconsistencies in the initial accounts. 'You had nine people in a bar without watches on, without mobile phones, and absolute panic set in when they realised what had happened.
The Guardian 06 April 2008
"It was made out to be the biggest 'conspiracy' since the Diana 'conspiracy,'" says Mitchell. "Some of the group (of friends in the tapas restaurant) had their watches on that night, and others didn't...
Yorkshire Post 29 May 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 05:24:38 PM
Why are you assuming that HOLMES did not take account of when meals were ordered, served and eaten? In my opinion using such language as "getting rid of Tannerman at any cost" is hyperbolic and a little bit childish. The Met have eliminated that sighting based on the fact that someone matching JT's description of person and events has come forward and identified themselves. It is your choice to disbelieve what the Met are telling us, based I suppose on your ABC method of super-sleuthing...
The manner in which the Met got rid of Tannerman suggests desperation to me because the story they came up with was ridiculous. He was gong the wrong way. They suggested he had the same clothes still and he remembered what he wore that night. His child had the same pyjamas still and he remembered which ones the child wore that night also. Please! My disbelief of the Met is very well founded, thank you.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 05:41:47 PM
When the forty eight questions had anything at all to do with finding Madeleine McCann they had all been answered during many hours of questioning. When the forty eight questions were put to Madeleine's mother when she was constituted arguida without a shred of evidence to support it ... she exercised her right under the law not to answer questions which would be used to incriminate her.
Funny that it is ignored that Madeleine's father answered all the questions put to him.
**snip September 7, 2007. Kate McCann entered the Polícia Judiciária in Portimão in the morning and the questioning extended into the evening.
**snip Kate began by replying all the questions, but when she was made an arguida, she stopped talking.
**snip Within the process, you were shown films of cynotechnical inspection of forensic character, where the dogs can be seen marking indications of human cadaver odour and equally human blood traces, and only of human origin, as well as all the comments that were made by the responsible expert. After the visualization, and after cadaver odour was signaled in your bedroom next to the wardrobe and behind the sofa that was pushed against the living room window, you said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of human blood behind the sofa by the detection dog
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, concerning the marking of cadaver odour in the boot of the vehicle that you rented a month after the disappearance?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, come ncerning the marking of human blood in the boot of the vehicle?
You said that you could not explain anything apart from what you had already said, upon being confronted with the result of the collection of Maddie’s DNA, which was analysed by a British lab, behind the sofa and inside the vehicle’s boot?
When the Drs McCann exited after being made arguidos they were met by a baying mob.
If no guarantee could be given to people that participating in a reconstitution would not expose them to similar treatment I think it would be extraordinary if they subjected themselves to such an experience.
Just as the forty eight questions were not designed to help in the search for Madeleine neither was the reconstitution.
Cite required for K Mccann answering all 48 questions beforehand
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 05:52:09 PM
You still haven't detailed how a reconstitution involving only this party could assist in the search for Madeleine, possibly because there is no stretch of the imagination which would enable it.
wouldn't it have shown it was physically impossible to have made the checks ...that they said they did
like the time line ....how odd when all that is going on ...you can recollect times and by whom ....you would have thought only the last two checks would have been surfice.........unless there was an hidden agenda...like IMO ....busy recollecting times ...[no watches ]....instead of searching for maddie ....who could have been found at anytime......but they knew they were going to need that time line .....
It would have been impossible to replicate events without some verifiable constant such as a CCTV record of events.
It would have required the presence of the cooks to cook the meals, it would have required the presence of waiting staff and bar staff to serve the meal bearing in mind there were other guests to be served. IMO if a reconstitution was being done it would have required everything to be done in real time or it was pointless.
On the 3rd of May ... when they were eating a carefree meal, they had no idea of the event taking place in the McCann apartment. During a re-enactment that would have been the foremost thought in everyone's mind which would have had an effect on their actions and their timings.
I have absolutely no doubt about the effect it would have had on Madeleine's mother and father; the trauma of subjecting them to a re-enactment which had no bearing on finding Madeleine really failed to do joined up thinking on this.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 14, 2015, 05:54:07 PM
The manner in which the Met got rid of Tannerman suggests desperation to me because the story they came up with was ridiculous. He was gong the wrong way. They suggested he had the same clothes still and he remembered what he wore that night. His child had the same pyjamas still and he remembered which ones the child wore that night also. Please! My disbelief of the Met is very well founded, thank you.
As SY did not divulge every last detail as to why they were almost certain Tannerman was an innocent tourist - then common sense dictates that there was a credible explanation for why he was apparently 'going the wrong way' when JT saw him - which SY are obviously aware of - and we are not. Or do you think SY are so thick they simply didn't notice what anyone with half a brain cell had noticed?
Why would they waste valuable air time going into minute details simply to satisfy a small group of sceptics on the internet? The main message they wished to convey to the viewing public was that the timescale was now longer than before - and that is what they did.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
It would have been impossible to replicate events without some verifiable constant such as a CCTV record of events.
It would have required the presence of the cooks to cook the meals, it would have required the presence of waiting staff and bar staff to serve the meal bearing in mind there were other guests to be served. IMO if a reconstitution was being done it would have required everything to be done in real time or it was pointless.
On the 3rd of May ... when they were eating a carefree meal, they had no idea of the event taking place in the McCann apartment. During a re-enactment that would have been the foremost thought in everyone's mind which would have had an effect on their actions and their timings.
I have absolutely no doubt about the effect it would have had on Madeleine's mother and father; the trauma of subjecting them to a re-enactment which had no bearing on finding Madeleine really failed to do joined up thinking on this.
Carefree meal?
How any parent could enjoy a carefree meal whilst leaving their babies on their own out of sight and hearing is an oxymoron at best
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 06:05:17 PM
Sorry, pathfinder, I was using Mitchell's words (which he later changed anyway)
Clarence Mitchell backtracks on previous statement about watches
Mitchell said he was not surprised by the inconsistencies in the initial accounts. 'You had nine people in a bar without watches on, without mobile phones, and absolute panic set in when they realised what had happened.
The Guardian 06 April 2008
"It was made out to be the biggest 'conspiracy' since the Diana 'conspiracy,'" says Mitchell. "Some of the group (of friends in the tapas restaurant) had their watches on that night, and others didn't...
Yorkshire Post 29 May 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html
How many people relaxing over a meal take a stopwatch and a notebook with them to record every minute?
Perhaps someone with an obsessive compulsive disorder may but ordinarily it is such unusual behaviour I think it would have been highly suspicious if they had been able to produce a perfectly coordinated and to the second record of the events.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 06:05:54 PM
The manner in which the Met got rid of Tannerman suggests desperation to me because the story they came up with was ridiculous. He was gong the wrong way. They suggested he had the same clothes still and he remembered what he wore that night. His child had the same pyjamas still and he remembered which ones the child wore that night also. Please! My disbelief of the Met is very well founded, thank you.
Please stop saying "The Met got rid of Tannerman", it really is silly. They eliminated him from their enquires, based on information they got from him. Why shouldn't he still have the child's PJs? We dressed our younger child in items of clothing belonging to our elder child several years later - does this make us freakish? I can still remember items of clothing I wore on various holidays 10 or 15 years ago thanks to umpteen photos taken of us at various times and locales - is this utterly bizarre? As for the direction Crecheman was walking there may be a perfectly plausible explanation for it - Carana has already highlighted a number of them, do you really think so poorly of the Met as to think they would not establish such a thing?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:08:15 PM
I thought Gerry stated that he looked at his watch, it was 10:03, so he told Kate it was time to go and check i.e. Gerry had a watch.
I have been comparing the phone times of the July 14 arguidos against the Tapas 9 checks. The bulk of those checking make it event driven rather than clock driven - a check before ordering, a check after eating starters and before mains, a check after mains. As it happens, the arguido phone times are a poor fit for the check times that are in the statements.
Moving on to the Met and whether they are competent or not. The actions to date do not generate confidence. 1) They have Tannerman going the wrong way re both crèche and destination. 2) The June 2014 dig in Luz was comical. 3) They claim the arguidos and witnesses of the July/Dec 2014 rounds were targeted, when the list shows they were anything but. 4) They have not visited the actual crime scene or the Smithman scene, making them as much armchair detectives as I am. They have no idea as to traffic flows within Luz. They have no idea how to get their hands on Smithman help in the event that Smithman is an innocent Portuguese male.
5) Heriberto has just had a request to access the Luz area phone data turned (by Portuguese authorities, not SY). SY is sitting on the key piece of information required to progress the case. I simply do not have the confidence that they know how to interpret it, given point 4.
I'm not convinced that whatever got leaked to the media is the whole story. There is no way of knowing exactly what the digs were for... there may have been intelligence of some sort that didn't happen to get plastered all over the media. I don't see how SY could officially have been poring over anything in situ that wasn't subject to the tortuous ILORs - it's not their territory. There may have been some informal agreement to have a look around dressed as tourists, but in view of the formalities insisted upon, I somewhat doubt it.
I see no reason why any member of the general public should have access to potentially sensitive information in the middle of an investigation.
The fact that the PJ was leaking like a sieve doesn't make the situation normal, even though I'm as curious as the next person.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 06:32:23 PM
Sorry, pathfinder, I was using Mitchell's words (which he later changed anyway)
Clarence Mitchell backtracks on previous statement about watches
Mitchell said he was not surprised by the inconsistencies in the initial accounts. 'You had nine people in a bar without watches on, without mobile phones, and absolute panic set in when they realised what had happened.
The Guardian 06 April 2008
"It was made out to be the biggest 'conspiracy' since the Diana 'conspiracy,'" says Mitchell. "Some of the group (of friends in the tapas restaurant) had their watches on that night, and others didn't...
Yorkshire Post 29 May 2008
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html
That's ok thanks G-Unit. CM who finally admitted.
October 25 2007 "There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell. "I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."
On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace."
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 14, 2015, 06:45:30 PM
How any parent could enjoy a carefree meal whilst leaving their babies on their own out of sight and hearing is an oxymoron at best
They could enjoy it in exactly the same way hundreds of thousands of other parents have whilst on holiday, when they go off to have a carefree meal knowing their sleeping -(but out of sight/hearing) - children will be regularly checked on.
In the same way as parents who leave their children asleep in their beds and take baby alarms to restaurants with them.
You may not agree with the practise, but multiple thousands of other people do -- and incredibly some of them still do it nowadays - even after what happened to Madeleine. It is those parent IMO who deserve to be criticised. However, for some strange reason - 'sceptics' never mention any of these other thousands upon thousands of 'wicked' parents. Inexplicable.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 07:01:01 PM
October 25 2007 "There was no evidence of a break-in," said Mr Mitchell. "I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."
On Martin Brunt's documentary 'The Mystery of Madeleine McCann, aired on 24 December 2007, Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace."
Perhaps you should have included the rest of what Professor Barclay had to say about why he thought traces would be left ... he was under the impression that the window ledge was covered with green lichen which would have been disturbed if someone had tried to climb over it.
There was no lichen on the window ledge ... therefore none would have been disturbed. But you know that, don't you ...
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 14, 2015, 07:20:51 PM
So you put yourself above the Met as far as this investigation is concerned. Who are you anyway and how do you know so much about what Operation Grange have and have not done? As you seem to know way more than the professionals then why haven't you solved this case?
I haven't solved the case because I don't know the answer.
If I could get my hands on the phone data I might have an outside chance, but even then it is a long shot.
And if I was in charge of Operation Grange, then whether I am right or deluded, I think the case solution is within SY's grasp.
Shame there was no Crimewatch appeal about Smithman in Portugal.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 07:24:34 PM
Please stop saying "The Met got rid of Tannerman", it really is silly. They eliminated him from their enquires, based on information they got from him. Why shouldn't he still have the child's PJs? We dressed our younger child in items of clothing belonging to our elder child several years later - does this make us freakish? I can still remember items of clothing I wore on various holidays 10 or 15 years ago thanks to umpteen photos taken of us at various times and locales - is this utterly bizarre? As for the direction Crecheman was walking there may be a perfectly plausible explanation for it - Carana has already highlighted a number of them, do you really think so poorly of the Met as to think they would not establish such a thing?
I'll say just one thing in reply. Did he have pics of his child dated 3rd May 2007 and labelled 'in pj's'? That's how daft your attempted explanations are. I would be interested in Carana's thoughts on where Crecheman had been however, where can I find them?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 07:42:33 PM
I'll say just one thing in reply. Did he have pics of his child dated 3rd May 2007 and labelled 'in pj's'? That's how daft your attempted explanations are. I would be interested in Carana's thoughts on where Crecheman had been however, where can I find them?
8@??)(
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 14, 2015, 07:43:27 PM
As for Portugal not having crimewatch the BBC declined the request,
The only thing I have seen in Portugal is a Sun reporter putting up Smithman poster, I think near the Tapas restaurant, after the Crimewatch programme. If someone has better info on 'the search for Smithman' within Portugal, I would be most grateful.
At the moment, I don't think there has been one. Shame.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 09:11:48 PM
I'll say just one thing in reply. Did he have pics of his child dated 3rd May 2007 and labelled 'in pj's'? That's how daft your attempted explanations are. I would be interested in Carana's thoughts on where Crecheman had been however, where can I find them?
Maybe he did G-Unit, but even if he didn't why would it be necessary to have photgraphic evidence? He was able to produce the PJs, he would remember having taken similar clothes to Tannerman on his holiday, what is daft about that? As for Carana's explanations, I dunno where you'd find them. On this forum some place, it may even have been Brietta, someone made some good observations on this point on this forum not that long ago.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 09:28:08 PM
Maybe he did G-Unit, but even if he didn't why would it be necessary to have photgraphic evidence? He was able to produce the PJs, he would remember having taken similar clothes to Tannerman on his holiday, what is daft about that? As for Carana's explanations, I dunno where you'd find them. On this forum some place, it may even have been Brietta, someone made some good observations on this point on this forum not that long ago.
Well, you believe what you like but I think it's totally unbelievable. How strange that you quote something but don't know who said it or when. Perhaps you should try to provide links in future like other people do. Otherwise your statements are of no use.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 14, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
It wasn't his job to speak to them Benice. In the UK Superintendents don't interview suspects.
The arguido status was no impediment to Gonçalo Amaral working as normal otherwise he would have been suspended. If every police officer in Portugal who has a complaint lodged against them were suspended there would be pitiful few of them to patrol the streets.
Then why did he go to such pains to hide the fact that he had never met them or spoken to them - both in his book and in TV interviews?
Are you sure about complaints lodged against police officers in Portugal? IIRC members of the general public were so scared of the police that Mrs. Murat put up a 'table' where folk who were too frightened of the police to go to them could leave any 'evidence' connected to Madeleine case. In those circumstances it is unlikely IMO that folk would dare to complain to the police about the police.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 09:48:34 PM
Well, you believe what you like but I think it's totally unbelievable. How strange that you quote something but don't know who said it or when. Perhaps you should try to provide links in future like other people do. Otherwise your statements are of no use.
If you think I'm going to spend hours to find a link to something someone on this forum said that you will just poo-poo anyway you've got another think coming.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 09:57:04 PM
If you think I'm going to spend hours to find a link to something someone on this forum said that you will just poo-poo anyway you've got another think coming.
Next time you decide to make a statement remember you are supposed to back up what you say. Crecheman was coming from completely the wrong direction. SY either didn't know or didn't care. Either way, the result was that they looked silly.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 14, 2015, 10:03:36 PM
If you think I'm going to spend hours to find a link to something someone on this forum said that you will just poo-poo anyway you've got another think coming.
Next time you decide to make a statement remember you are supposed to back up what you say. Crecheman was coming from completely the wrong direction. SY either didn't know or didn't care. Either way, the result was that they looked silly.
then perhaps you can provide a cite for the Met either not knowing or not caring which direction Crechman was coming from. Many thanks.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 10:22:58 PM
Then why did he go to such pains to hide the fact that he had never met them or spoken to them - both in his book and in TV interviews?
Are you sure about complaints lodged against police officers in Portugal? IIRC members of the general public were so scared of the police that Mrs. Murat put up a 'table' where folk who were too frightened of the police to go to them could leave any 'evidence' connected to Madeleine case. In those circumstances it is unlikely IMO that folk would dare to complain to the police about the police.
I suppose it depends what you mean by met. He certainly was around when they were interviewed but I don't believe he was formally introduced or shook hands. If I am wrong no doubt someone will point it out.
The Portuguese like the Spanish are suspicious of the police given the history of the countries where police forces were aligned to the ruling elite and tended to dispense justice on a partisan basis.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 11:00:31 PM
Then why did he go to such pains to hide the fact that he had never met them or spoken to them - both in his book and in TV interviews?
Are you sure about complaints lodged against police officers in Portugal? IIRC members of the general public were so scared of the police that Mrs. Murat put up a 'table' where folk who were too frightened of the police to go to them could leave any 'evidence' connected to Madeleine case. In those circumstances it is unlikely IMO that folk would dare to complain to the police about the police.
Amaral is not there to get close and make friends with suspects. The job of the police is to solve the case and bring those responsible to justice.
A common sense rule, however, says doubt their word, without this meaning that they are to be considered as suspects. The information they provide must be cross-checked against other witness statements, in order to evaluate their veracity and credibility. The public in general, deeply touched by the misfortune that has befallen the family - they can all easily imagine the anxiety and pain that a mother or a father must feel in such a situation - take their side right away. The investigator, however, cannot lose sight of his objectives. He has to devote all his efforts to the discovery of the truth in order to bring justice to the only true victim: the child.
One day, we were all together at the PJ in Portimão - inspectors and negotiators, members of Scotland Yard and the Leicestershire police - waiting for a contact to define the place and the conditions for the handing over of the money in Holland; when the tension was at its height and we were all holding our breath, Gerald McCann displayed a nonchalance that surprised all of the police officers present, including the English. The atmosphere got heavier as the waiting drew out, but McCann, relaxed, was reading trivia on the internet and discussing rugby and football with the English police, while licking a lollipop. On the telephone, he laughed with friends who called him. Perhaps this was nervousness; sometimes it's totally displaced, given what is at stake at the time. His attitude shocked. When, two days later the dutch police informed us that the individual had been arrested, that he was not holding any information and had lied from start to finish with the sole objective of extorting money from the couple, we were not surprised. (TOTL)
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on July 15, 2015, 01:05:21 AM
Amaral is not there to get close and make friends with suspects. The job of the police is to solve the case and bring those responsible to justice.
A common sense rule, however, says doubt their word, without this meaning that they are to be considered as suspects. The information they provide must be cross-checked against other witness statements, in order to evaluate their veracity and credibility. The public in general, deeply touched by the misfortune that has befallen the family - they can all easily imagine the anxiety and pain that a mother or a father must feel in such a situation - take their side right away. The investigator, however, cannot lose sight of his objectives. He has to devote all his efforts to the discovery of the truth in order to bring justice to the only true victim: the child.
One day, we were all together at the PJ in Portimão - inspectors and negotiators, members of Scotland Yard and the Leicestershire police - waiting for a contact to define the place and the conditions for the handing over of the money in Holland; when the tension was at its height and we were all holding our breath, Gerald McCann displayed a nonchalance that surprised all of the police officers present, including the English. The atmosphere got heavier as the waiting drew out, but McCann, relaxed, was reading trivia on the internet and discussing rugby and football with the English police, while licking a lollipop. On the telephone, he laughed with friends who called him. Perhaps this was nervousness; sometimes it's totally displaced, given what is at stake at the time. His attitude shocked. When, two days later the dutch police informed us that the individual had been arrested, that he was not holding any information and had lied from start to finish with the sole objective of extorting money from the couple, we were not surprised. (TOTL)
What nonsense. Mr Amaral must have been watching too many re-runs of "Kojak" for his equilibrium.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 08:12:36 AM
Amaral is not there to get close and make friends with suspects. The job of the police is to solve the case and bring those responsible to justice.
A common sense rule, however, says doubt their word, without this meaning that they are to be considered as suspects. The information they provide must be cross-checked against other witness statements, in order to evaluate their veracity and credibility. The public in general, deeply touched by the misfortune that has befallen the family - they can all easily imagine the anxiety and pain that a mother or a father must feel in such a situation - take their side right away. The investigator, however, cannot lose sight of his objectives. He has to devote all his efforts to the discovery of the truth in order to bring justice to the only true victim: the child.
One day, we were all together at the PJ in Portimão - inspectors and negotiators, members of Scotland Yard and the Leicestershire police - waiting for a contact to define the place and the conditions for the handing over of the money in Holland; when the tension was at its height and we were all holding our breath, Gerald McCann displayed a nonchalance that surprised all of the police officers present, including the English. The atmosphere got heavier as the waiting drew out, but McCann, relaxed, was reading trivia on the internet and discussing rugby and football with the English police, while licking a lollipop. On the telephone, he laughed with friends who called him. Perhaps this was nervousness; sometimes it's totally displaced, given what is at stake at the time. His attitude shocked. When, two days later the dutch police informed us that the individual had been arrested, that he was not holding any information and had lied from start to finish with the sole objective of extorting money from the couple, we were not surprised. (TOTL)
[/b] And if you believe that you'll believe anything IMO. If you think Gerry was responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, do you honestly think that he would be so stupid as to behave in the manner Amaral describes at such a time? Do you really think he would even be taking calls from his friends - let alone having a laugh with them whilst waiting for what could be a massively important phone call?
If he was the guilty person, then he would have to be completely mad to behave like that in front of so many of the very police officers he wanted to convince that Madeleine had been abducted. Common sense please!
It's far more likely IMO that the UK officers tried to relieve the tension he must have been feeling as the time ticked by - by talking to him about football. If it happened at all.
I suppose you also believe Amaral's description of how Kate behaved (the sofa incident) too where he talks as if he was there with her. Or his description of her 'inappropriate' behaviour when they were called back to the police station on 4th May - he wasn't there either.
The first time they laid eyes on oneanother was 11th December 2009 at court and as Kate says in her book about that occasion - ''It's extraordinary he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met''
So I ask again - if it was perfectly normal procedure for the Lead investigator NOT to have any contact with the McCanns, then why did he go out of his way to hide that fact - both in his book and TV interviews? Even when he was given the opportunity to admit the true facts - he studiously avoided doing so.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 08:35:32 AM
I suppose it depends what you mean by met. He certainly was around when they were interviewed but I don't believe he was formally introduced or shook hands. If I am wrong no doubt someone will point it out.
The Portuguese like the Spanish are suspicious of the police given the history of the countries where police forces were aligned to the ruling elite and tended to dispense justice on a partisan basis.
Quote from Kate's book
And so it was that on 11th December 2009 I first laid eyes on Sr Goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had laid eyes on me. It is extraordinary that he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met. End quote
Regarding your second para. I don't believe that people who are suspicious and scared of their own police force would think it was good idea to approach them with a complaint about them.
I do sometimes wonder whether fear of the police resulted in Portugese people who may have had information about this case not coming forward because they were too scared of what might happen to them. Smithman is one example IMO.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2015, 09:50:10 AM
There are no excuses for not attending a reconstruction, unless you have something to hide.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Carana on July 15, 2015, 09:55:29 AM
And so it was that on 11th December 2009 I first laid eyes on Sr Goncalo Amaral. It was also the first time he had laid eyes on me. It is extraordinary that he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met. End quote
Regarding your second para. I don't believe that people who are suspicious and scared of their own police force would think it was good idea to approach them with a complaint about them.
I do sometimes wonder whether fear of the police resulted in Portugese people who may have had information about this case not coming forward because they were too scared of what might happen to them. Smithman is one example IMO.
Or were led to believe that she's dead and the parentswhatdunnit, so no point any more....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 09:58:39 AM
[/b] And if you believe that you'll believe anything IMO. If you think Gerry was responsible for Madeleine's disappearance, do you honestly think that he would be so stupid as to behave in the manner Amaral describes at such a time? Do you really think he would even be taking calls from his friends - let alone having a laugh with them whilst waiting for what could be a massively important phone call?
If he was the guilty person, then he would have to be completely mad to behave like that in front of so many of the very police officers he wanted to convince that Madeleine had been abducted. Common sense please!
It's far more likely IMO that the UK officers tried to relieve the tension he must have been feeling as the time ticked by - by talking to him about football. If it happened at all.
I suppose you also believe Amaral's description of how Kate behaved (the sofa incident) too where he talks as if he was there with her. Or his description of her 'inappropriate' behaviour when they were called back to the police station on 4th May - he wasn't there either.
The first time they laid eyes on oneanother was 11th December 2009 at court and as Kate says in her book about that occasion - ''It's extraordinary he could have said and written so many awful things about a person he had never met''
So I ask again - if it was perfectly normal procedure for the Lead investigator NOT to have any contact with the McCanns, then why did he go out of his way to hide that fact - both in his book and TV interviews? Even when he was given the opportunity to admit the true facts - he studiously avoided doing so.
Members of SY and many others were witnesses. If Kate was present that day she would have met him.
GA: And then we watch that, us Portuguese who were there and the English, we watched it in stupefaction, he was sitting there with a lollipop laughing on the phone and we were all waiting.
JP: Ah he was on the phone and sucking on a lollipop wasn't it and laughing and chatting?
GA: Yes! Completely detached from what was going on and about to happen.
JP: So that shocked you in particular?
GA: Me and the colleagues who were present.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 11:12:12 AM
Members of SY and many others were witnesses. If Kate was present that day she would have met him.
GA: And then we watch that, us Portuguese who were there and the English, we watched it in stupefaction, he was sitting there with a lollipop laughing on the phone and we were all waiting.
JP: Ah he was on the phone and sucking on a lollipop wasn't it and laughing and chatting?
GA: Yes! Completely detached from what was going on and about to happen.
JP: So that shocked you in particular?
GA: Me and the colleagues who were present.
There is no way Kate would lie in her book - knowing that Amaral could prove she lied. That would be stupid.
Your quote is a repeat of what he claims in his book - which is littered with lies, half truths and nasty innuendo.
If you really believe that an intelligent person like Gerry McCann would be clowning around whilst waiting for what might be a crucial phone call regarding the fate of his beloved daughter - whilst everyone else present was anxiously waiting with baited breath - then I can't hep you.
IMO if he was innocent he wouldn't behave like that - he would be as nervous as hell. And and if he was guilty - he most certainly would not behave like that - especially in front of the police of all people.
Common sense PF?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 15, 2015, 11:18:49 AM
There are no excuses for not attending a reconstruction, unless you have something to hide.
that is a ridiculously simplistic post and is obviously incorrect...in the real world...depending on the circumstances ...there would be several reasons for not attending a reconstruction. Something to hide would be one of them but not the only one.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2015, 11:47:03 AM
that is a ridiculously simplistic post and is obviously incorrect...in the real world...depending on the circumstances ...there would be several reasons for not attending a reconstruction. Something to hide would be one of them but not the only one.
There are no excuses.
Saying you can't get time off work is cobblers, as some have done.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 02:25:01 PM
There is no way Kate would lie in her book - knowing that Amaral could prove she lied. That would be stupid.
Your quote is a repeat of what he claims in his book - which is littered with lies, half truths and nasty innuendo.
If you really believe that an intelligent person like Gerry McCann would be clowning around whilst waiting for what might be a crucial phone call regarding the fate of his beloved daughter - whilst everyone else present was anxiously waiting with baited breath - then I can't hep you.
IMO if he was innocent he wouldn't behave like that - he would be as nervous as hell. And and if he was guilty - he most certainly would not behave like that - especially in front of the police of all people.
Common sense PF?
Kate wasn't there only Gerry. If he lied about it you would have heard it about it. Many witnesses were there. It's no surprise anybody would have suspected them on the 4th after those deleted phone calls, tampering and contradictions in statements. The PJ were very lenient with them in the early days. They've changed their approach now - look at the recent Mikaeel Kular case. No messing around the mother last person to see him was straight in the station and interrogated.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2015, 02:27:56 PM
Saying you can't get time off work is cobblers, as some have done.
Depends on your work schedule. Some senior occupations are committed in a way that Teachers are not.
... and possibly on the fear that they, the Tapas members, might be fitted up.
They would know of all the injustices in the Cipriano case ... and warned about the PJ and the PT so called Justice System, which often seems biased.
They would know about the injustices in the Michael Cook case. Gun thrust in his mouth, hung upside down from a window and his soles beaten. Went to Court in a totally unclean state having been denied proper toilet facilities. Alibi evidence and other evidence ignored in Court. They would know about these injustices and atrocities.
Likewise they had experienced disinformation put out about them, like being swingers , liars etc
They also would have guessed that the reconstruction was going to be twisted to produce false evidence against them and their friends Kate and Gerry. The writing was on the wall. It was NOT about FINDING MADELEINE, ... but about trying to produce and twist evidence about Kate and Gerry and maybe themselves in order to make them fit "the Bill".
Another case erm "solved" . Another notch on Amarals gun ?
For Gawds sake, why would they be so mad to even think of going back for a reconstruction ?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 02:40:09 PM
Depends on your work schedule. Some senior occupations are committed in a way that Teachers are not.
... and possibly on the fear that they, the Tapas members, might be fitted up.
They would know of all the injustices in the Cipriano case ... and warned about the PJ and the PT so called Justice System, which often seems biased.
They would know about the injustices in the Michael Cook vase. Gun thrust in his mouth, hung upside down from a window and his soles beaten. Went to Court in a totally unclean state having been denied proper toilet facilities. Alibi evidence and other evidence ignored in Court. They would know about these injustices and atrocities.
Likewise they had experienced disinformation put out about them, like being swingers , liars etc
They also would have guessed that the recostruction was going to be twisted to produce false evidence against them and their friends Kate and Gerry.
The writing was on the wall. It was NOT about FINDING MADELEINE, ... but about trying to produce and twist evidence about Kate and Gerry and maybe themselves in order to make them fit "the Bill".
Another case erm "solved" . Another notch on Amarals gun !
For Gawds sake, why would they be so mad to even think of going back for a reconstruction ?
Amaral didn't tamper with the crime scene.
Amaral didn't delete phone calls.
Amaral didn't get a new second mobile.
Amaral didn't contradict and change his statements.
Amaral didn't phone Sky or a priest.
Amaral didn't ask for Gordon Brown's help.
Amaral didn't bark at the McCanns clothes.
Amaral didn't leave the car boot open.
Amaral didn't say the unidentified man was Gerry McCann.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on July 15, 2015, 02:54:48 PM
Depends on your work schedule. Some senior occupations are committed in a way that Teachers are not.
... and possibly on the fear that they, the Tapas members, might be fitted up.
They would know of all the injustices in the Cipriano case ... and warned about the PJ and the PT so called Justice System, which often seems biased.
They would know about the injustices in the Michael Cook vase. Gun thrust in his mouth, hung upside down from a window and his soles beaten. Went to Court in a totally unclean state having been denied proper toilet facilities. Alibi evidence and other evidence ignored in Court. They would know about these injustices and atrocities.
Likewise they had experienced disinformation put out about them, like being swingers , liars etc
They also would have guessed that the recostruction was going to be twisted to produce false evidence against them and their friends Kate and Gerry.
The writing was on the wall. It was NOT about FINDING MADELEINE, ... but about trying to produce and twist evidence about Kate and Gerry and maybe themselves in order to make them fit "the Bill".
Another case erm "solved" . Another notch on Amarals gun !
For Gawds sake, why would they be so mad to even think of going back for a reconstruction ?
They ended up worse for wear though by refusing. Looked like colluding/guilty all by themselves.All your talk of being fitted up/arrested/tortured is risible. They will have had UK police plus diplomatic perusal at all times.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: insider on August 03, 2015, 11:53:23 AM
Portuguese police accuse McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell of 'lying through his teeth'
By VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 00:50 16 April 2008
Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have branded her parents' spokesman "a manipulative liar".
The head of the Portuguese police federation, Carlos Anjos, accused Clarence Mitchell of engineering a fight with officers to sabotage a reconstruction of the disappearance.
Police statements made by Kate and Gerry McCann were leaked to the media last week as they travelled to Brussels to promote a campaign for a child alert system.
The statements revealed Maddie was left crying the night before she vanished on May 3.
At the time, Mr Mitchell accused police of masterminding the leak to overshadow the visit.
But Mr Anjos told the respected Portuguese newspaper Jornal de Noticias: 'He is a liar and a Machiavellian.
"Mr Mitchell wants to discredit the Policia Judiciaria and invent excuses so the McCanns do not come to Portugal to participate in the reconstruction of the night she disappeared.
"He lies with as many teeth as he has in his mouth. Finally we know what side truth is on."
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 03, 2015, 12:01:44 PM
Portuguese police accuse McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell of 'lying through his teeth'
By VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 00:50 16 April 2008
Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have branded her parents' spokesman "a manipulative liar".
The head of the Portuguese police federation, Carlos Anjos, accused Clarence Mitchell of engineering a fight with officers to sabotage a reconstruction of the disappearance.
Police statements made by Kate and Gerry McCann were leaked to the media last week as they travelled to Brussels to promote a campaign for a child alert system.
The statements revealed Maddie was left crying the night before she vanished on May 3.
At the time, Mr Mitchell accused police of masterminding the leak to overshadow the visit.
But Mr Anjos told the respected Portuguese newspaper Jornal de Noticias: 'He is a liar and a Machiavellian.
"Mr Mitchell wants to discredit the Policia Judiciaria and invent excuses so the McCanns do not come to Portugal to participate in the reconstruction of the night she disappeared.
"He lies with as many teeth as he has in his mouth. Finally we know what side truth is on."
I hadn't seen that particular article before but if it shows one thing it proves that the Portuguese police were aware that obstacles were being purposely put in the way of a reconstruction taking place involving the tapas group. Moreover, he was right.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: insider on August 03, 2015, 12:13:29 PM
I hadn't seen that particular article before but if it shows one thing it proves that the Portuguese police were aware that obstacles were being purposely put in the way of a reconstruction taking place involving the tapas group. Moreover, he was right.
little wonder they were suspicious
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 03, 2015, 12:31:43 PM
Portuguese police accuse McCanns' spokesman Clarence Mitchell of 'lying through his teeth'
By VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 00:50 16 April 2008
Detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have branded her parents' spokesman "a manipulative liar".
The head of the Portuguese police federation, Carlos Anjos, accused Clarence Mitchell of engineering a fight with officers to sabotage a reconstruction of the disappearance.
Police statements made by Kate and Gerry McCann were leaked to the media last week as they travelled to Brussels to promote a campaign for a child alert system.
The statements revealed Maddie was left crying the night before she vanished on May 3.
At the time, Mr Mitchell accused police of masterminding the leak to overshadow the visit.
But Mr Anjos told the respected Portuguese newspaper Jornal de Noticias: 'He is a liar and a Machiavellian.
"Mr Mitchell wants to discredit the Policia Judiciaria and invent excuses so the McCanns do not come to Portugal to participate in the reconstruction of the night she disappeared.
"He lies with as many teeth as he has in his mouth. Finally we know what side truth is on."
Was this before amaral received a criminal conviction for lying...the PJ do not need anyone to discredit them...they are more than capable of doing it themselves
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 03, 2015, 01:46:53 PM
Was this before amaral received a criminal conviction for lying...the PJ do not need anyone to discredit them...they are more than capable of doing it themselves
In common with other police services it would seem. So we can work from a common datum.
What were the many other reasons for not attending a reconstruction?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on August 03, 2015, 02:06:40 PM
There certainly seems to be a problem with short term memory. We do appear to revisit exactly the same reconstitution innuendos time after time after time ...
Wonder if it is something in the air ... deterioration of brain cells ... or the education system. Must be something.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 03, 2015, 02:25:59 PM
There certainly seems to be a problem with short term memory. We do appear to revisit exactly the same reconstitution innuendos time after time after time ...
Wonder if it is something in the air ... deterioration of brain cells ... or the education system. Must be something.
If in doubt look on The McCann Files and read the correspondence between LP and PJ then draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on August 03, 2015, 02:41:57 PM
There certainly seems to be a problem with short term memory. We do appear to revisit exactly the same reconstitution innuendos time after time after time ...
Wonder if it is something in the air ... deterioration of brain cells ... or the education system. Must be something.
We don't need innuendos to tell us that had Mr and Mrs had any intention of cooperating with the PJ in organising a reconstitution then they could have persuaded their pals to take part too. History tells a different story though and they all made excuses.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Mr Gray on August 03, 2015, 02:42:33 PM
it wouldn't help with the investigation fear of a corrupt police system
The Leicester Police were going to be there with them, and further legal representation and Foreign Office officials if desired! Do you really think they would all be carted off!!
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
I hadn't realised that Judge Emilia Melo e Castro had restated the following..
PROVED FACTS From the Judgement - Pages 11 and 12
Page 11
13. The defendant Goncalo Amaral retired from the police force on the 1st July 2008 (art 19 of the instruction basis).
14. On the 21st July 2008 the General Prosecution of the Republic divulged a note to the media announcing the archiving of the criminal investigation and that the same could be reopen by the initiative of the Public Ministry or any interested parties if new elements of evidence that would lead to pertinent diligences (article 20 of the instruction basis).
15. In the archiving report, 21.07.08:
"Taking into account that there were certain points in the arguidos' and witnesses' statements that revealed, apparently at least, contradiction or that lacked physical confirmation, it was decided to carry out the "reconstruction of the fact", a diligence that is consecrated in article 150 of the Penal Process Code in the sense of duly clarifying, on the very location of the facts, the following very important details, among others:
1 – The physical, real and effective proximity between Jane Tanner, Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins, at the moment when the first person walked by them, and which coincided with the sighting of the supposed suspect, carrying a child. It results, in our perspective, strange that neither Gerald McCann nor Jeremy Wilkins saw her, or the alleged abductor, despite the exiguity of the space and the peacefulness of the area;
2 – The situation concerning the window to the bedroom where Madeleine slept, together with the twins, which was open, according to Kate. It seemed then necessary to clarify if there was a draught, since movement of the curtains and pressure under the bedroom door are mentioned, which, eventually, could be verified through the reconstitution;
3 – The establishment of a timeline and of a line of effective checking on the minors that were left alone in the apartments, given that, if it is believed that such checking was as tight as the witnesses and the arguidos describe it, it would be, at least, very difficult to reunite conditions for the introduction of an abductor in the residence and the posterior exit of said abductor, with the child, namely through a window with scarce space. It is added that the supposed abductor could only pass, through that window, holding the minor in a different position (vertical) from the one that witness Jane Tanner saw (horizontal);
Page 12
4 – What happened during the time lapse between approximately 6.45/7 p.m. – the time at which MADELEINE was seen for the last time, in her apartment, by a different person (David Payne) from her parents or siblings – and the time at which the disappearance is reported by Kate Healy – at around 10 p.m.;
5 – The obvious and well-known advantages of immediate appreciation of evidence, or in other words, the fulfilment of the principle of contiguity of evidence in order to form a conviction, as firm as possible, about what was seen by Jane Tanner and the other interposers, and, eventually, to dismiss once and for all any doubts that may subsist concerning the innocence of the missing [child's] parents.
In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.
Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence in-viable.
We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to demonstrate what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain not clarified."(...)
"This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a reckless, or gross, manner" (...)
good to see the archiving report stated that the mccanns had not acted in a reckless manner
Even so, as keeps being pointed out;
If said guard duty had been observed, in the possibility of this being an abduction, as was insistently mentioned and continues to be mentioned and is admissible to have happened, its occurrence might eventually have been rendered inviable. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: carlymichelle on January 31, 2016, 07:02:51 PM
wouldnt most parents do everything they could to find their missing child including a reconstruction etc?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 31, 2016, 07:04:53 PM
wouldnt most parents do everything they could to find their missing child including a reconstruction etc?
8((()*/ of course they would. Didn't Brie state the other day she would kill for her kids?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2016, 07:17:18 PM
IMO the McCanns have been very single minded in achieving their goals, whether publicity, support or getting a case review. I find it difficult to believe that their friends would not have returned to PdL for the reconstruction if the McCanns had asked them at the Rothley meeting or elsewhere.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on January 31, 2016, 07:34:51 PM
I said it would have been an opportunity to get them all committed to the reconstruction (to help find Madeliene). Since they wouldn't all attend, it is logical they didn't.
Contradiction in terms.
The so-called 'reconstruction' wasn't about helping to find Madeleine.
It was (supposedly) to attempt to settle guilt or innocence (of the accused).
Mission impossible.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2016, 07:36:17 PM
By arriving at a realistic timeline which would reveal any opportunities for Madeline's disappearance and hence allow an investigation to proceed from that point.
For some reason the McCanns did not seem to understand the Portuguese concept of the reconstruction.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: ferryman on January 31, 2016, 07:37:50 PM
By arriving at a realistic timeline which would reveal any opportunities for Madeline's disappearance and hence allow an investigation to proceed from that point.
For some reason the McCanns did not seem to understand the Portuguese concept of the reconstruction.
Reconstructions (that is proper ones!) are about jogging memories, encouraging witnesses to come forward, generating leads.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2016, 07:39:25 PM
Didn't say they didn't, just that Portugal does proper ones too only different.
Not if the purpose to try to determine guilt or innocence (of the accused) ....
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2016, 11:21:19 AM
With careful planning a reconstruction could have been informative.
A moving door was proposed as possibly showing that someone entered the apartment before Gerry's check. That possibility could have been checked out; was there time between Matthew's listening at shutters and Gerry's check. How did the person get in? Would they have heard Gerry coming and had time to hide? Were the available hiding places adequate?
Then we have the Tanner sighting. Was it possible for her to pass people and not be seen or heard? Was it possible for the shutters to be raised without alerting Gerry and Jez? Was it possible for others to pass the raised shutters and not notice? Was it possible for Matthew not to notice from inside the apartment? Was it possible to see children breathing from outside the doorway?
How were the patio doors left? Closed? Open a finger width? Open a hand's width? What was the minimum gap allowing them to be opened from outside? How exactly were they closed from the outside? Grasping the frame, pushing on the glass or what?]
What could be seen from the restaurant? Who sat where? What was the noise level like? What external sounds could be heard?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Benice on August 29, 2016, 12:14:44 PM
And the child ? Where is the child in the tapas friend's self- serving decision ?
IMO If the tapas group thought that a recon would have helped to find Madeleine then they would have gone.
However nothing the PJ told them in reply to their queries convinced them that this would be the case or that 'finding madeleine' was the real reason for the proposed recon. The group were highly suspicious of the motive behind this recon - and I for one don't blame them. Being told not to bring my children into the country would be enough to put me off - full stop.
AIMHO
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2016, 12:31:03 PM
IMO If the tapas group thought that a recon would have helped to find Madeleine then they would have gone.
However nothing the PJ told them in reply to their queries convinced them that this would be the case or that 'finding madeleine' was the real reason for the proposed recon. The group were highly suspicious of the motive behind this recon - and I for one don't blame them. Being told not to bring my children into the country would be enough to put me off - full stop.
AIMHO
Even if the only outcome of the reconstitution was to rule themselves and their friends out of the investigation and to help the PJ to refocus on other lines of inquiry surely it would have been worth it ? Remember by this time the dreaded Amaral had been removed from the case and Rebelo was coordinator.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 29, 2016, 12:41:18 PM
IMO If the tapas group thought that a recon would have helped to find Madeleine then they would have gone.
However nothing the PJ told them in reply to their queries convinced them that this would be the case or that 'finding madeleine' was the real reason for the proposed recon. The group were highly suspicious of the motive behind this recon - and I for one don't blame them. Being told not to bring my children into the country would be enough to put me off - full stop.
AIMHO
Were they told not to bring their children? Were they all told not to bring their children? Did they all get the same letter?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2016, 03:14:10 PM
Were they told not to bring their children? Were they all told not to bring their children? Did they all get the same letter?
Have you even glanced at the "page order" index at mccanpjfiles site Robbity? It is available in the southern hemisphere, and displays the right way up (even if you and your screen are upside down), so give it a try.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2016, 04:25:47 PM
IMO If the tapas group thought that a recon would have helped to find Madeleine then they would have gone.
However nothing the PJ told them in reply to their queries convinced them that this would be the case or that 'finding madeleine' was the real reason for the proposed recon. The group were highly suspicious of the motive behind this recon - and I for one don't blame them. Being told not to bring my children into the country would be enough to put me off - full stop.
AIMHO
I think the telling point is that Jez Wilkins was also reluctant to return to Portugal and was the first to say so.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2016, 05:34:48 PM
(snip) ... Being told not to bring my children into the country would be enough to put me off - full stop ... (snip)
@Benice If someone was flying out to Portugal around the time of the proposed reconstruction but for something completely different like a hendo would taking kid(s) be an essential priority?
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: mercury on August 30, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
@Benice If someone was flying out to Portugal around the time of the proposed reconstruction but for something completely different like a hendo would taking kid(s) be an essential priority?
The idea that the pj tellng them their kids didnt need to come is sinister is preposterous, the reconstruction wouldnt have needed the kids.....what were they gonna do? Remember when they shat their nappies and cried? pffft
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 30, 2016, 01:59:44 AM
The idea that the pj tellng them their kids didnt need to come is sinister is preposterous, the reconstruction wouldnt have needed the kids.....what were they gonna do? Remember when they shat their nappies and cried? pffft
Had they been ordered to bring their kids it would have been even more interesting.
Title: Re: The tapas group and the 'reconstitution' that was never to take place.
Post by: Robittybob1 on August 30, 2016, 06:28:26 AM
The idea that the pj tellng them their kids didnt need to come is sinister is preposterous, the reconstruction wouldnt have needed the kids.....what were they gonna do? Remember when they shat their nappies and cried? pffft