UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Luke Mitchell and the murder of his teenage girfriend Jodi Jones on 30 June 2003. => Topic started by: John on July 10, 2012, 04:37:21 PM
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"When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him. The incidents went on. When he moved to St David’s High, a music teacher found him trying to throttle another pupil and he was sent to an educational psychologist. He refused the expert’s help. Instead Mitchell became a rebellious, mysterious teenager who was heavily into cannabis and supplied his Goth friends with the drug. "
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
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But one of Mitchell's former girlfriends, who says he attacked her with a knife just weeks before Jodi's murder, yesterday dismissed his latest claims of innocence.
Kara Van Nuil is adamant that her ex-boyfriend did kill Jodi, and also revealed she is terrified that Mitchell will attempt to track her down on his release.
The 24-year-old, who believes that her decision to end the relationship probably saved her life, has now moved away from Midlothian in an attempt to avoid being found.
Ms Van Nuil, who was 16 when she dated Mitchell, maintains that he pressed a blade to her neck during an Army Cadet Force platoon meeting.
With the other cadets enjoying a snack break outside the hut, Mitchell is said to have grabbed Ms Van Nuil from behind, turned her round and forced a penknife to her throat.
"There's not one part of me that thinks he isn't guilty," she said. "Because of the way he was with me that day, I don't have a doubt in my mind at all. It definitely was him.
"He is so strong and he can easily hold someone down like me. I'm tiny and I'm sure Jodi was the same. I had no power to fight back.
"He is a very disturbed boy," she continued. "He looked up to Marilyn Manson, who is strange himself. It was everything though, from the music to the drugs. He even urinated in bottles in his bedroom; who does that?
"He was chilled out, giggly and laid back one minute, obviously that was down to the stuff he was smoking, but then he'd turn weird. It was like he had a split personality."
JODI'S FAMILY HIT BACK OVER KILLERS CLAIMS OF INNOCENCE (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/319784/Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence)
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Thanks John, That is extremely interesting. I am really struggling with this case, especially having read the circumstances surrounding the 'alternative suspects'. When did the story of Ms Van Nuil come to light? Is she for real, do you think?
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Thanks John, That is extremely interesting. I am really struggling with this case, especially having read the circumstances surrounding the 'alternative suspects'. When did the story of Ms Van Nuil come to light? Is she for real, do you think?
Oh she is real alright. I wasn't even aware of this latest development in the story coming on 13 May 2012 and some 9 years after the murder.
JODI'S FAMILY HIT BACK OVER KILLERS CLAIMS OF INNOCENCE (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/319784/Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence)
I cannot be sure when the police found out about Van Nuil but she confided in family and friends after Mitchell was charged with her murder. The Press later got hold of the story.
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John, sorry to keep picking on you but....what do you make of the alternative suspects, that have been put forward in this case? It's difficult when you only get one side of a story, but the one that Mitchells supporters (his mum and Lean) tell, does sound quite
compelling interesting. Have their claims been fully investigated by the Police?
What have Corinne/Lean had to say about these allegations?
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Here is the article from the Daily Mail dated 22nd January 2005. The story broke the previous evening.
Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
A TEENAGER last night told how killer Luke Mitchell held a knife to her throat just a month before he killed and mutilated girlfriend Jodi Jones.
Mitchell, then only 14 years old, pulled on a balaclava, grabbed Kara van Nuil from behind and warned her not to move as he pressed the blade to her neck.
Last night she said: 'I was absolutely terrified. He was so strong. I didn't hear him coming. He just came up behind me, grabbed me around the neck with one arm and held the knife with the other.
'He told me: "Move and you are f***ing dead".' Miss van Nuil, now 17, met Mitchell at the Army Cadet HQ in Bonnyrigg, Midlothian, when she joined his cadet unit in February, 2002.
They started dating a few weeks later, even though Mitchell was already going out with Jodi and seeing another girl, Kimberley Thomson, in Perthshire.
Miss van Nuil told how she was at first mesmerised by Mitchell and how he wooed her with romantic text messages.
But she brought the relationship to an end after he followed her into the cadet hut one night and threatened her with the knife. She told the Scottish Daily Mail: 'He used to wear a balaclava and pull it up over his head like a hat.
'We were at cadets in May when I went into the hut on my own. The instructors were out having a cigarette with the other cadets. I was messing about with the blackboard and I didn't hear Luke coming but there was suddenly an arm around my neck.
'I got a glimpse of him as I looked back and he had pulled his balaclava over his face. He then put a knife to my throat and said I would be dead if I moved an inch.
'I was really scared and couldn't move.
He was so strong. I couldn't move my arms but I kept nipping his knees with my fingernails and begging him to let me go. He kept me like that for about a minute.
'When he put the knife down I turned to face him and he said, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." He tried to pretend it was a joke but my neck was red and I was genuinely scared. I was crying my eyes out.' Mitchell never returned to cadets after the attack. A month later he strangled 14-year- old Jodi and cut her throat.
Miss van Nuil regrets not telling her parents Angela, 39, and Bill, 55, about the attack until after the murder.
She said: 'I never knew Jodi but when I found out Luke was her boyfriend I knew straight away that he had done it. I told my dad what happened in the cadet hut and he called the police.
'They came around and took hours of statements but I was never called to court.
'I'm so relieved - I couldn't have faced him in the court. I'm so sorry for what happened to Jodi. When it first happened, I used to feel such guilt and think "that could have been me".' Miss van Nuil, of Gorebridge, Midlothian, said: 'We never met anywhere but cadets, so I only saw him on Monday and Wednesday nights - I suppose because he was going out with Jodi.
'One of my friends said he had five girls on the go but I didn't care because I was crazy about him. He was so polite. I suspected he might have been a bit of a geek. But he always sent me lovely text messages.' But Miss van Nuil said she also saw flashes of his temper: 'One time he was on the shooting range and got told off by one of the instructors. All of a sudden he shouted something, threw down his gun and stormed off.
'There were other times, too. If someone so much as criticised him, he would lose his temper and shout and swear at them.' After the knife attack, she dumped Mitchell. But two days after he was first questioned about Jodi's murder, Miss van Nuil saw him walking down her street. She said: 'I was looking out the window. He was parading around like a cockerel. His friends all came out and started hugging him as if he was a hero.
'I was terrified. I hid behind the curtain, shaking, and hoped he would not see me.' Last night Miss Van Nuil broke down in tears on hearing the verdict.
'I'm just so happy,' she said. 'It's been a long wait and now it's all over.
I feel that I can finally rest easy.' Her mother, Angela, added: 'We're relieved that justice has been done for Jodi and pleased because we knew all along that he had done this.' It has emerged that at least one other girl also suffered a terrifying ordeal at Mitchell's hands.
The girl, who was just 11 at the time, was visiting Mitchell's father Philip, a family friend.
Mitchell, who was only 12, was also staying in the house in Livingston and the two youngsters were sharing a twin bedroom.
In the middle of the night, he climbed on top of her, held a knife to her throat and demanded she kiss him. Last night she said: 'I just can't tell you how I feel about the verdict.'
g.mclean@dailymail.co.uk
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-127809847.html
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John, sorry to keep picking on you but....what do you make of the alternative suspects, that have been put forward in this case? It's difficult when you only get one side of a story, but the one that Mitchells supporters (his mum and Lean) tell, does sound quite compelling interesting. Have their claims been fully investigated by the Police?
What have Corinne/Lean had to say about these allegations?
There aren't actually any alternative suspects. What we have is a list of names belonging to male members of the Jones extended family and their associates. Sandra Lean and Billy Middleton have systematically gone through just about every one of them over the last two years.
I even provided details to Luke's defence way back in 2004 of a guy who actually confessed to the killing and had the means, motive and opportunity to have done so. He also had a history of attacking young women and was in the habit of cycling around country lanes looking for potential victims. As recently as last year his new lawyers approached me for this same information.
There certainly is suspicion that others may have been involved and at least one young hooligan and a member of the Jones extended family was forced out of the area after being linked to the murder by his actions after the event.
The overriding fact in the case however is that Mitchell, dressed in his green Bomber jacket and black t-shirt, was seen and identified just yards from the murder scene by two women at 5.42pm which was a matter of 27 minutes after Jodi's murder. Mitchell was later seen a short distance further along that same road by several witnesses.
His alibi is also highly suspect as the one and only person who was supposed to have been at home with him that afternoon, his brother Shane, denied seeing or even hearing him in the house. That for me says it all.
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Thanks for that John, very interesting stuff. What happened to the guy who claimed to have been responsible? Was this disproved? Or did he retract his claim?
I agree that if you take the evidence regarding Mitchell, on it's own, it looks like a cast iron case. It's just these other suspects, especially the one you mention here, that puts a small element of doubt in my mind
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Thanks for that John, very interesting stuff. What happened to the guy who claimed to have been responsible? Was this disproved? Or did he retract his claim?
I agree that if you take the evidence regarding Mitchell, on it's own, it looks like a cast iron case. It's just these other suspects, especially the one you mention here, that puts a small element of doubt in my mind
I don't know what ultimately happened about the guy who confessed, I suspect very little as Mitchell's new lawyers would not be asking the same questions some 8 years later.
I know that the police interviewed him but what happened then is anyone's guess.
The whole thing about the alibi is suspicious and when I challenged Corinne Mitchell about it on the WAP forum she got very uptight and started playing the high blood pressure card. She has never given me a straight answer as to why he other son denied her version of events that afternoon.
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I very much appreciate your time John. If Corinne is willing to take questions I might just try my luck!
There just seem to be too many holes in the defense; the obvious alibi issues, the knife, the sightings, the finding of the body and not least, the previous attack. Did Mitchell also state that Jodi was wearing a hair band when found, even though he would not have been able to see this, such was the way her head was laying?
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That documentary was cheap, nasty, sensationalist, one-sided, and added nothing new in the way of evidence.
There wasn't much in the way of sympathy/empathy for Jodie's family either, and Dr Lean was smirking a bit much for my liking - she's doing a live FB Q & A tonight - I'll be giving that a miss.
Bumping this thread for the benefit of those who have forgotten.
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"When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him. The incidents went on. When he moved to St David’s High, a music teacher found him trying to throttle another pupil and he was sent to an educational psychologist. He refused the expert’s help. Instead Mitchell became a rebellious, mysterious teenager who was heavily into cannabis and supplied his Goth friends with the drug. "
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
12 years old
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But one of Mitchell's former girlfriends, who says he attacked her with a knife just weeks before Jodi's murder, yesterday dismissed his latest claims of innocence.
Kara Van Nuil is adamant that her ex-boyfriend did kill Jodi, and also revealed she is terrified that Mitchell will attempt to track her down on his release.
The 24-year-old, who believes that her decision to end the relationship probably saved her life, has now moved away from Midlothian in an attempt to avoid being found.
Ms Van Nuil, who was 16 when she dated Mitchell, maintains that he pressed a blade to her neck during an Army Cadet Force platoon meeting.
With the other cadets enjoying a snack break outside the hut, Mitchell is said to have grabbed Ms Van Nuil from behind, turned her round and forced a penknife to her throat.
"There's not one part of me that thinks he isn't guilty," she said. "Because of the way he was with me that day, I don't have a doubt in my mind at all. It definitely was him.
"He is so strong and he can easily hold someone down like me. I'm tiny and I'm sure Jodi was the same. I had no power to fight back.
"He is a very disturbed boy," she continued. "He looked up to Marilyn Manson, who is strange himself. It was everything though, from the music to the drugs. He even urinated in bottles in his bedroom; who does that?
"He was chilled out, giggly and laid back one minute, obviously that was down to the stuff he was smoking, but then he'd turn weird. It was like he had a split personality."
JODI'S FAMILY HIT BACK OVER KILLERS CLAIMS OF INNOCENCE (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/319784/Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence-Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence)
‘Jailed Luke Mitchell has recently boasted of passing a lie detector test and told how he still loves the girlfriend he was convicted of slaying following a sensational trial in 2005.
His protests come as his legal team step up their campaign for the 23-year-old to be freed on human rights grounds by judges in Europe.
But Jodi's mother, Judith, yesterday told the Scottish Sunday Express: "It is disgusting, that's all I can say about it."
The youngster's grandmother, Alice Walker, also dismissed the findings of the polygraph test that Mitchell and his mother Corinne are said to have passed.
She said: "Of course it is a load of lies, it just shows you what good liars are."
The family, including Jodi's sister Janine and brother Joseph, who all still stay near the murder scene in Dalkeith, Midlothian, remain too upset to discuss Mitchell's claims in detail.
However, sources close to the family say they have been badly shaken by his public protestations of innocence - particularly the bizarre claim that he still loves Jodi and thinks about her every day.
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‘Jailed Luke Mitchell has recently boasted of passing a lie detector test and told how he still loves the girlfriend he was convicted of slaying following a sensational trial in 2005.
His protests come as his legal team step up their campaign for the 23-year-old to be freed on human rights grounds by judges in Europe.
But Jodi's mother, Judith, yesterday told the Scottish Sunday Express: "It is disgusting, that's all I can say about it."
The youngster's grandmother, Alice Walker, also dismissed the findings of the polygraph test that Mitchell and his mother Corinne are said to have passed.
She said: "Of course it is a load of lies, it just shows you what good liars are."
The family, including Jodi's sister Janine and brother Joseph, who all still stay near the murder scene in Dalkeith, Midlothian, remain too upset to discuss Mitchell's claims in detail.
However, sources close to the family say they have been badly shaken by his public protestations of innocence - particularly the bizarre claim that he still loves Jodi and thinks about her every day.
Mitchell will undoubtedly be offered a new identity and anonymity and be moved away after his eventual release just like Karen Matthews and Maxine Carr.
For a 12-year-old to be involved in knife crime he must have some serious issues.
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Mitchell will undoubtedly be offered a new identity and anonymity and be moved away after his eventual release just like Karen Matthews and Maxine Carr.
There appears to be a misogynistic element going on with him from a young age - or possible signs of
and there’s also the possible Piquerism paraphilia
The innocent lad who Sandra Lean claims ‘hacked off his hair’ (instead of using the word ‘cut’ *&^^&) used clippers and/or a pair of scissors I suspect
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Mitchell will undoubtedly be offered a new identity and anonymity and be moved away after his eventual release just like Karen Matthews and Maxine Carr.
For a 12-year-old to be involved in knife crime he must have some serious issues.
Holding a knife to a females throat at the age of 12 is not normal behaviour
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Holding a knife to a females throat at the age of 12 is not normal behaviour
Going out with a 12 year old when you’re 16 isn’t either.
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Going out with a 12 year old when you’re 16 isn’t either.
When did Luke Mitchell do this ?
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When did Luke Mitchell do this ?
When he was 12 and the girl was 16.
‘Ms Van Nuil, who was 16 when she dated Mitchell, maintains that he pressed a blade to her neck during an Army Cadet Force platoon meeting’
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When he was 12 and the girl was 16.
‘Ms Van Nuil, who was 16 when she dated Mitchell, maintains that he pressed a blade to her neck during an Army Cadet Force platoon meeting’
What are you suggesting - because she was 16 years old and he was 12 - it cancels out his behaviour ?
Are you implying he was entitled to act in this way because she wasn’t behaving normally
a 16 year old who ‘refused to have sex with him’ ?
"When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
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‘Ms Van Nuil, who was 16 when she dated Mitchell, maintains that he pressed a blade to her neck during an Army Cadet Force platoon meeting’
Would you say that's a good sign or a bad sign?
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What are you suggesting - because she was 16 years old and he was 12 - it cancels out his behaviour ?
Are you implying he was entitled to act in this way because she wasn’t behaving normally
a 16 year old who ‘refused to have sex with him’ ?
What I think is in all likelihood she saw an opportunity to use Luke’s notoriety to make some money.
Did she tell an adult at the Army Cadet platoon at the time...or her parents? Surely she was afraid for her safety after her terrible ordeal? But nope...surprise, surprise.
‘ It was not until Jodi's slaying that Ms Van Nuil, who is now settled with a new partner and pregnant with her second son, decided to tell her friends and family of the terrifying encounter.’
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Would you say that's a good sign or a bad sign?
I would say that I’d have to see more evidence than a, probably paid for, interview in a newspaper to convince me that it was true.
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What I think is in all likelihood she saw an opportunity to use Luke’s notoriety to make some money.
Did she tell an adult at the Army Cadet platoon at the time...or her parents? Surely she was afraid for her safety after her terrible ordeal? But nope...surprise, surprise.
‘ It was not until Jodi's slaying that Ms Van Nuil, who is now settled with a new partner and pregnant with her second son, decided to tell her friends and family of the terrifying encounter.’
What you think she made the story up?
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What I think is in all likelihood she saw an opportunity to use Luke’s notoriety to make some money.
Did she tell an adult at the Army Cadet platoon at the time...or her parents?
or ‘friends/parters/counsellors’ etc?
What does Sandra Lean say about this in her book?
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I would say that I’d have to see more evidence than a, probably paid for, interview in a newspaper to convince me that it was true.
In the history of newspaper interviews do you think there has ever been an interviewee who wasn’t paid or solely motivated by greed?
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I would say that I’d have to see more evidence than a, probably paid for, interview in a newspaper to convince me that it was true.
What about the fact she came forward publicly like she did possibly knowing she could face ridicule and speculation because she was allegedly 16 years old at the time of the incident and Mitchell was 12
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What you think she made the story up?
I think it’s entirely possible.
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I think it’s entirely possible.
possible she’s a ‘fantasist/opportunist’ ?
I don’t
Luke Mitchell would have called this out before now if she were
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or ‘friends/parters/counsellors’ etc?
What does Sandra Lean say about this in her book?
What has this got to do with Sandra Lean?
She no more knows the veracity of this woman’s claim than you or I.
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What has this got to do with Sandra Lean?
She no more knows the veracity of this woman’s claim than you or I.
What - he wouldn’t have told his mum Corrine or his mouthpiece Sandra it didn’t happen?
Point me to where I can read about Luke Mitchell denying it
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possible she’s a fantasist=opportunist ?
I don’t
I think it’s possible that she’s an opportunist.
It would be interesting to know what her relationship was with Luke after the alleged incident.
And I’m pleased that you don’t think that she’s an opportunist...democracy in action right there.
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What - he wouldn’t have told his mum Corrine or his mouthpiece Sandra it didn’t happen?
Point me to where I can read about Luke Mitchell denying it
Why should any of them legitimise this with any comment?
Did the girl appear in court for the prosecution? Surely that would have been damning evidence of Luke’s violent behaviour and love of knives.
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Kara Van Nuil is adamant that her ex-boyfriend did kill Jodi, and also revealed she is terrified that Mitchell will attempt to track her down on his release.
But she’s not the only female to have indicated this
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What has this got to do with Sandra Lean?
I has plenty to do with Luke Mitchell.
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I has plenty to do with Luke Mitchell.
I agree - it does
and it appears to be conveniently ignored for a reason
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But she’s not the only female to have indicated this
So who are the others and have they also failed to tell the police at the time or subsequently preferring to tell the media first? Then of course I don’t suppose the police pay as well.
Here’s another article about the alleged knife attack posted by John.
‘Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
A TEENAGER last night told how killer Luke Mitchell held a knife to her throat just a month before he killed and mutilated girlfriend Jodi Jones.
Mitchell, then only 14 years old, pulled on a balaclava, grabbed Kara van Nuil from behind and warned her not to move as he pressed the blade to her neck.
Last night she said: 'I was absolutely terrified. He was so strong. I didn't hear him coming. He just came up behind me, grabbed me around the neck with one arm and held the knife with the other.
'He told me: "Move and you are f***ing dead".' Miss van Nuil, now 17, met Mitchell at the Army Cadet HQ in Bonnyrigg, Midlothian, when she joined his cadet unit in February, 2002.’
So Luke was 12, now he’s 14.
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I agree - it does
and it appears to be conveniently ignored for a reason
Sandra Lean all but called Kara Van Nuil a liar tonight which was disgusting imo. The girl was extremely distressed after Mitchell climbed on her and put a knife to her throat (see bottom article).
Let's remember there were others!
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=506.msg14694#msg14694
"When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him. The incidents went on. When he moved to St David’s High, a music teacher found him trying to throttle another pupil and he was sent to an educational psychologist. He refused the expert’s help. Instead Mitchell became a rebellious, mysterious teenager who was heavily into cannabis and supplied his Goth friends with the drug. "
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
But one of Mitchell's former girlfriends, who says he attacked her with a knife just weeks before Jodi's murder, yesterday dismissed his latest claims of innocence.
Kara Van Nuil is adamant that her ex-boyfriend did kill Jodi, and also revealed she is terrified that Mitchell will attempt to track her down on his release.
The 24-year-old, who believes that her decision to end the relationship probably saved her life, has now moved away from Midlothian in an attempt to avoid being found.
Ms Van Nuil, who was 16 when she dated Mitchell, maintains that he pressed a blade to her neck during an Army Cadet Force platoon meeting.
With the other cadets enjoying a snack break outside the hut, Mitchell is said to have grabbed Ms Van Nuil from behind, turned her round and forced a penknife to her throat.
"There's not one part of me that thinks he isn't guilty," she said. "Because of the way he was with me that day, I don't have a doubt in my mind at all. It definitely was him.
"He is so strong and he can easily hold someone down like me. I'm tiny and I'm sure Jodi was the same. I had no power to fight back.
"He is a very disturbed boy," she continued. "He looked up to Marilyn Manson, who is strange himself. It was everything though, from the music to the drugs. He even urinated in bottles in his bedroom; who does that?
"He was chilled out, giggly and laid back one minute, obviously that was down to the stuff he was smoking, but then he'd turn weird. It was like he had a split personality."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/319784/Jodi-s-family-hit-back-over-killers-claims-of-innocence
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Sandra Lean all but called the girl a liar tonight which was disgusting imo. The girl was extremely distressed after Mitchell climbed on her and put a knife to her throat.
Let's remember there were others!
https://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=506.msg14694#msg14694
Was any of their testimony used in court?
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So who are the others and have they also failed to tell the police at the time or subsequently preferring to tell the media first? Then of course I don’t suppose the police pay as well.
Here’s another article about the alleged knife attack posted by John.
‘Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
A TEENAGER last night told how killer Luke Mitchell held a knife to her throat just a month before he killed and mutilated girlfriend Jodi Jones.
Mitchell, then only 14 years old, pulled on a balaclava, grabbed Kara van Nuil from behind and warned her not to move as he pressed the blade to her neck.
Last night she said: 'I was absolutely terrified. He was so strong. I didn't hear him coming. He just came up behind me, grabbed me around the neck with one arm and held the knife with the other.
'He told me: "Move and you are f***ing dead".' Miss van Nuil, now 17, met Mitchell at the Army Cadet HQ in Bonnyrigg, Midlothian, when she joined his cadet unit in February, 2002.’
So Luke was 12, now he’s 14.
Are you of the view that all women who are threatened with rape but who don’t report it to the police straight away (or at all, or who go to the papers instead) are liars? What is the date of this article?
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Sandra Lean all but called the girl a liar tonight which was disgusting imo.
I’ve not yet had chance to listen to all what was said
However, Sandra lean has form for attempting to discredit victims of abuse
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I’ve not yet had chance to listen to all what was said
However, Sandra lean has form for attempting to discredit victims of abuse
It’s something of a trend on here tonight as well.
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Going out with a 12 year old when you’re 16 isn’t either.
He was 14 when going out with the sixteen year old, but threatenend another girl with a knife when he was 12.
“When he was 12, Mitchell had used a knife to threaten the daughter of a family who were guests in the Mitchell house. He had climbed onto her bed, held the knife to her throat and asked for a kiss.
At an army cadet corps he attended in Bonnyrigg, a lock knife with a six-inch blade that he was carrying was confiscated by Matthew Muraska, the company leader. Mitchell would often show the other boys weapons he had improvised from blades and sticks”.
A former girlfriend, Kara Van Nuil, who dated Mitchell for a few months in 2003 after meeting him at the cadets, described how he once grabbed her from behind and held a Swiss Army knife to her throat with the warning: “Don’t move, or I’ll gut you.” Just a month later, Jodi was dead.
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He was 14 when going out with the sixteen year old, but threatenend another girl with a knife when he was 12.
“When he was 12, Mitchell had used a knife to threaten the daughter of a family who were guests in the Mitchell house. He had climbed onto her bed, held the knife to her throat and asked for a kiss.
At an army cadet corps he attended in Bonnyrigg, a lock knife with a six-inch blade that he was carrying was confiscated by Matthew Muraska, the company leader. Mitchell would often show the other boys weapons he had improvised from blades and sticks”.
A former girlfriend, Kara Van Nuil, who dated Mitchell for a few months in 2003 after meeting him at the cadets, described how he once grabbed her from behind and held a Swiss Army knife to her throat with the warning: “Don’t move, or I’ll gut you.” Just a month later, Jodi was dead.
He was such a charmer. You want to hear Sandra Lean attempt to make out he was such a gentle innocent child in tonights Facebook live broadcast. She could flog oil to the Arabs.
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Here’s the whole article from the Times which has probably been posted on here before but for newbies (like me) it certainly provides the other side to the TV documentary- a long read, but with lots of information that wasn’t covered in the documentary.
The murderous art that unmasked a cruel killer
Police investigating the murder of Jodi Jones were shocked by the dark fascinations of her boyfriend. But can the work of musicians such as Marilyn Manson be blamed for inspiring brutality or does it reflect the turmoil of a disturbed mind
Police investigating the murder of the 14-year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones had a prime suspect — her boyfriend Luke Mitchell. He was due to meet her the night she disappeared and had found her body in the darkness of a desolate Midlothian wood. But to the frustration of the police there was no forensic evidence linking him, or anybody else, to the crime.
To understand the way Mitchell’s mind worked, detectives immersed themselves in the youth cultures of goth, grunge, rap and nu-metal. For the mostly middle-aged officers it was a revelation. Given what they knew about how Jodi met her gruesome death, they became convinced that Mitchell’s musical taste betrayed the mind of a sadistic killer.
It was the suspect himself who sparked this line of inquiry. In the opening days of the investigation in the summer of 2003, as detectives went about their door-to-door inquiries in Dalkeith, Mitchell had spoken to officers in the street about music containing murderous themes. Displaying the arrogance he was to show throughout the case, he asked if the policeman knew the song Kim by the rapper Eminem.
Detectives discovered the song was about somebody murdering his wife. It was impossible to read the lyrics without a shiver of realisation that their chief suspect was a fan: “Don’t you get it bitch, no one can hear you?/Now shut the f*** up and get what’s comin’ to you./ You were supposed to love me./Now bleed, bitch, bleed!” Eminem was not Mitchell’s favourite musician. That honour went to Manson, the controversial American rock star. Mitchell was obsessive about Manson’s music, with its dark subject matter of suicide, violence, satanism and murder. When detectives dipped into the Manson repertoire it only heightened their concerns — and their suspicions. Especially songs such as King Kill 33:
“I will destroy you with one simple hole.
“The world that hates me has taken its toll but now I have finally taken control.
“You wanted so bad to make me this thing.
“And I want you now to just kill the king.
“And I am not sorry, and I am not sorry: this is what you deserve.”
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There was more. Detectives discovered that two days after the killing, having already been questioned and forensically examined, Mitchell wound down by buying and watching a Manson DVD, The Golden Age of Grotesque.
It had a 15 certificate, and he bought it at his local Sainsbury’s along with some family shopping.
Amid darkened scenes illuminated by flickering torchlight, the DVD shows a girl’s naked body lying on the ground. In another part, two other girls are tied up and hooded.
More police research came across Manson’s paintings of the Black Dahlia victim Elizabeth Short, a Hollywood starlet whose murder in 1947 scandalised America. These stopped them in their tracks. The paintings showed injuries disturbingly similar to those inflicted on Jodi’s body — especially the large wounds on the side of the mouth stretching towards her ear, and an injury to the breast. Had the art and music of Marilyn Manson inspired, or even provoked, the most grisly murder Scotland had seen for a generation? Manson’s CDs and those of many other performers who explore horror and darkness are piled high in the untidy bedrooms of tens of thousands of teenagers across Britain. Their parents roll their eyes at their offspring’s musical choices and fashion excesses and shrug. Are goths really any different or more dangerous than other teenage fads from previous generations? After all, parents in earlier times were once scandalised by teddy boys and mods and hippies and punks. Is this really any different? Luke Mitchell’s murder of Jodi Jones has sparked a worried re-examination of these parental assumptions. As Mitchell starts a prison sentence “without limit of time” for Jodi’s murder, the case poses some unsettling questions for parents, politicians and the music industry.
Does macabre and death- obsessed music inspire acts of violence, self-harm and murder? Or is it simply the case that vulnerable and disturbed youngsters are attracted to it? Either way, can this music continue to be made available without any age restrictions — unlike feature films and computer games? Crucial to these considerations is a more difficult question, one that last week haunted the minds of millions of Scots as they watched the closing stages of the trial: what drove Mitchell, a boy too young to shave, to the sadistic murder of his girlfriend?
JODI and Luke both favoured the uniform of the goth — baggy black clothes and facial piercings. Mitchell had a piercing just below the centre of his bottom lip, which he would worry with his tongue, making it bob up and down. Jodi had one on the right-hand side of her bottom lip.
Although just 14 years old, Mitchell was obsessed with nihilism and the occult, particularly as expressed in the music of Nirvana and Manson, as well as nu-metal acts such as Slipknot. He fostered a look similar to that of the Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain, who was Jodi’s particular idol. Their favourite lyric was Cobain’s: “The finest day I ever had was when tomorrow never came.”
Both teenagers had a taste for the macabre. They would gather in Greyfriars Kirkyard in the centre of Edinburgh — generally regarded as one of the most eerily atmospheric graveyards in Scotland. There they would smoke cannabis — Mitchell always seemed to have a plentiful supply — among the ancient tombstones.
For some of the group that hung around Greyfriars, the surroundings whetted their appetite for horror. One of them was Sonny Devlin, from the Restalrig area of Edinburgh, who at 15 was a year older than the Dalkeith kids. By some grisly coincidence, it was June 30, 2003, the evening of Jodi’s murder, that Devlin and a younger friend chose to break into a Greyfriars tomb known as the last resting place of George “Bloody” Mackenzie, a 17th-century prosecutor of the Covenanters.
They disinterred a corpse and hacked off its head with a penknife. The boys then used the head to simulate oral sex, for the entertainment of their pals. The two boys were later arrested and became the first people in Scotland for more than a century to be convicted of “violation of a sepulchre”.
Mitchell’s friends had long been aware of his fascination for knives and the damage they could inflict.
When he was 12, Mitchell had used a knife to threaten the daughter of a family who were guests in the Mitchell house. He had climbed onto her bed, held the knife to her throat and asked for a kiss.
At an army cadet corps he attended in Bonnyrigg, a lock knife with a six-inch blade that he was carrying was confiscated by Matthew Muraska, the company leader. Mitchell would often show the other boys weapons he had improvised from blades and sticks.
A former girlfriend, Kara Van Nuil, who dated Mitchell for a few months in 2003 after meeting him at the cadets, described how he once grabbed her from behind and held a Swiss Army knife to her throat with the warning: “Don’t move, or I’ll gut you.” Just a month later, Jodi was dead.
While many fans of Manson’s music were happy simply to ally themselves with his idiosyncratic fashion sense and musical posturing, Mitchell went further. Satanic references were scrawled all over his school jotters. One read: “I offer my flesh, blood and soul to the dark lord of hell.” Another jotter had the words “Satan lives” on the front, and the sentence: “I have tasted the devil’s green blood.” On another Mitchell had written: “Evil is the way”.
Occult beliefs also emerged in Mitchell’s school work, causing alarm among teaching staff at his Catholic high school, St David’s in Dalkeith. In an essay called Pain and Suffering, prepared for a third-year English class, Mitchell wrote: “People like you need Satanic people like me to keep the balance . . . Once you shake hands with the devil you then have truly experienced life.”
After the teacher referred him to guidance staff, Mitchell wrote in another essay: “Just because I am more violent than others and cut myself, does that justify some pompous git of a teacher to refer me to a psychiatrist? Just because I have chosen to follow the teachings of Satan doesn’t mean I need psychiatric help.”
There were curiosities about the way he lived at the Mitchell family home, which, according to the wooden sign next to the front door, went by the name of “Bedlam”.
When his scarlet-painted bedroom was searched by police they found 20 bottles of his own urine under his bed. Mitchell’s parents, Corinne and Philip, split up in 1999, and his mother indulged him, giving him money and letting his girlfriends sleep in his room. She knew all about his cannabis use.
Mitchell often harmed himself. Once he scored the satanic number 666 into his arm “for a dare”. A former classmate, Michelle Tierney, later told police Mitchell had stubbed a cigarette out on his hand in front of her. He had then told her he had imagined getting stoned and killing someone. It would be “funny”, he said.
Jodi and her sister Janine had also been known to self-harm. The sisters had had a troubled childhood — their father Jimmy had committed suicide, aged 39, by hanging himself from a tree in the garden, six years before the death of his daughter. In her diary, Jodi had written: “Take the knife. All your pain can be taken by one slit, slit to your wrists. Be free, be happy, just like me.”
According to specialists in the occult, Jodi’s death bore many of the hallmarks of a ritual killing. She was naked but for a pair of socks, her wrists bound by the legs of her trousers. She was strangled, then while she was still alive her neck was slashed more than 20 times. A hole had been cut in her windpipe and the main artery in her neck had been severed almost all the way through. She had multiple injuries to her head, and wounds from her mouth to her ear. Careful cuts had been made around her eyes, as well as deep cuts on her left breast and right arm. The knife had been pushed deep into her mouth.
Few professionals involved in the case had ever witnessed anything so grim. Forensic pathologists concluded that such a murder was extremely rare, and was usually associated with somebody mentally disturbed or high on drugs.
So what was the motivation? Chief superintendent Craig Dobbie, who led the investigation, believes that Mitchell and Jodi had a furious row on the day of the murder after she discovered he was planning to take another girl on holiday. During the trial it emerged that he had been conducting a relationship with Kimberley Thomson, 15, from Perthshire, behind Jodi’s back and they had arranged to spend time together during the summer break.
“I think he told her at lunchtime that day (of her death) and she wanted to see him that night to talk about it so they arranged to meet.”
According to Dobbie’s account, they ended up in the woods between their homes. “A situation developed and she suffered a blow to her face. Her lip is cut. We later found some blood on a tree trunk and the lip bleeds quite a lot when it is cut. I think at this point she turned around and headed eastwards towards home, towards safety. But then she was struck on the head with something like the limb of a tree. Then she was strangled, her head was pulled up and her throat was cut. At that point she was dead.
“After a ‘normal’ murder, the person who committed it is then going to leg it or hide the body. But in this case the body is stripped and cut. Someone is living out a fantasy at this stage. This is something someone has wanted to do. We are now trying to understand the mind of the killer. We know the difference between right and wrong. But this person is outwith that so it is very difficult to understand why. The trial has heard potential influences such as Marilyn Manson ’s depiction of the Black Dahlia.
“Jodi’s breast was cut. Her abdomen was cut, the gash on the face was identical, there was a hole in the forehead. It’s there and we can’t avoid this simulation. This was not about sex, it was about escalating violence and the opportunity to perform injuries. We are not talking about some poor wee soul who some guy has raped. This is most horrific.”
As Jodi’s body was removed by ambulance, Mitchell is said to have sat coolly texting on his mobile. “In 85% of murder cases the attacker knows the victim, the local geography and lives within a five-mile radius,” said Dobbie. “I knew I wanted to eliminate all of Jodi’s male family members and associates, all the males who used that path and all local rough sleepers. Luke Mitchell was part of that group. A teacher from his school quickly came forward and raised concerns about the alarming writings in his jotter. That was worthy of further exploration. Was he into satan or dabbling, looking for an alternative religion or just sticking it up to his teachers? We couldn’t draw huge conclusions but were already learning that he carried knives. Then there was the incredulous discovery of the body.”
By early July, Mitchell had started to emerge as the prime suspect but the investigation was thwarted by a lack of any forensic evidence and with Mitchell’s almost unnatural resilience in the face of intense police scrutiny. What fascinated and frustrated detectives in equal measure was how a 14-year-old could commit such a frenzied attack and yet cover his tracks so efficiently.
More unsettling was the casual, contemptuous way he chatted with police dog handlers about their animals and mocked officers for allowing the bins in the street to be emptied before the search for a possible murder weapon had begun.
“He was always a very resilient, defiant and lippy lad,” said Dobbie. “He was much more confident than you would have expected. He was challenging and he liked to taunt. It was almost as if he was saying, ‘You’ll never solve this’.”
Mitchell was first questioned by police four days after Jodi’s death, yet neither the interview nor a search of his house provided any leads to tie him to the murder. It was the first indication police had that Mitchell would be no pushover. “For his age, he turned out to be a very challenging interviewee. He liked to mock,” said Dobbie. “In the interview he was confident and very controlling. He displayed a high level of intelligence.”
A month later, having exhausted other leads, police questioned Mitchell again. They knew they could only hold him for six hours and so the interview was planned in minute detail but again he proved elusive. “He was totally in control of himself and challenged the abilities and authority of the police. He had the mental ability to sit and take control of the interview and that’s incredible from someone who’s not previously been part of the criminal process or not come from a criminal family. He was not shocked or fazed or panicking. I have never seen someone so cool and calm and who needed to control the situation.”
Despite the lack of physical evidence, the police were building a circumstantial case against him. After collecting hundreds of witness statements they were able to piece together Mitchell’s movements, minute by minute, on the day of the murder and his story didn’t add up. The police report that named the teenager as the sole suspect placed particular emphasis on the fact that it was Mitchell who “discovered” Jodi’s body. It would allow prosecutors to convincingly assert that he had specialist knowledge of the murder scene.
Many psychologists are resistant to the idea that the root cause of Mitchell’s killing of Jodi was his fascination with death and the occult, as expressed through music.
Professor Cynthia McVey, of Glasgow Caledonian University, does not accept the link.
“Certainly if you watch a violent film, you learn the behaviour,” she says. “If you see someone sticking a knife in someone else you would know how to do that and potentially where to strike to do the most damage. Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean it would induce violent behaviour.”
Her colleague, Professor Vince Egan, agrees, dismissing Manson as “just show business”. It would be foolish, he says, to take action against a form of music or culture because of a crime such as this.
“There were lots of things going wrong in Luke’s life that could have helped contribute to his problems. He was dealing in large amounts of cannabis, carrying knives, he was clearly very alienated,” he says.
Manson’s effect on the behaviour of young people has been examined by Dr Adrian North, a psychologist at the University of Leicester. He believes the music attracts those who are already disturbed.
“We asked people when they had started self-harming and other activities associated with this music, and the answer they give was that the self-harming or whatever came first. What our research showed was that Manson’s kind of music is attractive to people like this.”
Child psychologists such as Dr Jack Boyle agree that the problem arises when the fans are already in a vulnerable state. “If you have a very disturbed individual who may be losing contact with reality because of drugs and he listens to Manson then that is a different issue. Then the music could take on a different meaning entirely and people could misinterpret Manson’s music.”
Psychologists believe more work needs to be done to examine whether the music acts to legitimise the disturbing thoughts in vulnerable youngsters’ minds, giving them a glamorous gloss or encouraging them. Manson himself believes his critics are missing the point. Asked about his fascination with serial killers he once said: “My fascination is similar to that of people stopping to look at car accidents or wanting to go to an amusement park and get on a ride that says ‘Ride at your own risk’. People love their fear, whether they realise it or not. People are afraid of death but love to get closer to it. I think that’s why there is a need for Marilyn Manson in America.”
TO SOME politicians, however, the reality that vulnerable or disturbed youngsters are drawn to music like Manson’s is enough justification for new curbs on it being sold to children. Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem MP, yesterday called for age certification of CDs to bring them into line with computer games and films.
This weekend in Dalkeith and Midlothian there is relief that the verdict was “guilty” rather than the “not proven” some had feared. Thoughts are with Jodi’s family. Now justice has been done they must try to pick up the pieces of their lives — knowing that one piece will be missing for ever. On Friday Jodi’s mother released a poem her daughter had written.
Entitled “A Thinking Christmas”, it is a touching and childlike depiction of how some children are lucky enough to receive gifts, while others less fortunate do not. But what is likely to linger long in the family’s mind are the poem’s first two lines, which, through murder and grief, have gained an unintended resonance:
“Your fire is nice and warm, Just think — A little girl cold, wet and in the storm . . . ”
Additional reporting: Melanie Legg, Paul Lamarra, Mark Macaskill and Jason Allardyce
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He was such a charmer. You want to hear Sandra Lean attempt to make out he was such a gentle innocent child in tonights Facebook live broadcast. She could flog oil to the Arabs.
Am I wrong in thinking that you knew him and supported him at one time, so he couldn’t be all bad?
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I’m a wrong in thinking that you knew him and supported him at one time, so he couldn’t be all bad?
No your not wrong. That was before I studied the facts and evidence. I couldn't comprehend a young child of 15 doing such a ghastly crime but the evidence took me in another direction.
I freely concede that the case is far from watertight though! If he didn't do it then he must be the unluckiest guy ever and I feel for him and his family but but but... his version of events just don't add up.
Why did Shane drop him in it?
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.
“When he was 12, Mitchell had used a knife to threaten the daughter of a family who were guests in the Mitchell house. He had climbed onto her bed, held the knife to her throat and asked for a kiss.
This is not normal behaviour
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No your not wrong. That was before I studied the facts and evidence. I couldn't comprehend a young child of 15 doing such a ghastly crime but the evidence took me in another direction.
I freely concede that the case is far from watertight though!
But didn’t you support him for quite some time and after the court case when most of the details we know now, such as the family’s weird behaviour after Jodi’s death, would have been known? Genuinely interested.
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This is not normal behaviour
It was definitely a warning.
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It was definitely a warning.
It’s certainly strong evidence that Luke had violent tendencies. So did the witnesses testify in court?
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It’s certainly strong evidence that Luke had violent tendencies. So did the witnesses testify in court?
Would they have been allowed to?
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Would they have been allowed to?
extract from article in Daily Mail 22nd January 2005.
Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
Miss van Nuil regrets not telling her parents Angela, 39, and Bill, 55, about the attack until after the murder.
She said: 'I never knew Jodi but when I found out Luke was her boyfriend I knew straight away that he had done it. I told my dad what happened in the cadet hut and he called the police.
'They came around and took hours of statements but I was never called to court.
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extract from article in Daily Mail 22nd January 2005.
Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
The sad thing is that Jodi might have been spared had this girl spoken up.
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I even provided details to Luke's defence way back in 2004 of a guy who actually confessed to the killing and had the means, motive and opportunity to have done so. He also had a history of attacking young women and was in the habit of cycling around country lanes looking for potential victims. As recently as last year his new lawyers approached me for this same information.
There certainly is suspicion that others may have been involved and at least one young hooligan and a member of the Jones extended family was forced out of the area after being linked to the murder by his actions after the event.
The overriding fact in the case however is that Mitchell, dressed in his green Bomber jacket and black t-shirt, was seen and identified just yards from the murder scene by two women at 5.42pm which was a matter of 27 minutes after Jodi's murder. Mitchell was later seen a short distance further along that same road by several witnesses.
Someone confessed? Are they a viable suspect at all? I'm assuming this is someone other than who Corinne claimed had confessed on JE podcast?
Is this a member of the family who was named in the show?
Also Corinne/Lean say Luke didn't own a jacket, she bought it for him after the murder - is that a lie?
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Someone confessed? Are they a viable suspect at all? I'm assuming this is someone other than who Corinne claimed had confessed on JE podcast?
Is this a member of the family who was named in the show?
Also Corinne/Lean say Luke didn't own a jacket, she bought it for him after the murder - is that a lie?
This guy AR was caught and prosecuted. He used to cycle all around the area with a rape kit, he had some learning difficulties. I got wind of the confession and passed it to Luke to pass to Findlay. I understand the police followed up on it.
And no, he's not connected to the Jones family. He was mentioned by name on the show tonight though.
I know Corinne bought Luke a jacket after the murder, what he wore beforehand I don't know.
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The sad thing is that Jodi might have been spared had this girl spoken up.
Did she and the other girl allegedly threatened with a knife by Luke give evidence in court? In a case constructed of circumstantial evidence two witnesses to Luke’s violent attacks with knives would be dynamite.
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It’s certainly strong evidence that Luke had violent tendencies. So did the witnesses testify in court?
or a sadistic streak
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And no, he's not connected to the Jones family. He was mentioned by name on the show tonight though.
I meant the person in the extended family you mentioned, sorry. Do you mean that AR (whose full name I've found now, thanks) was mentioned?
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or a sadistic streak
Did these very pertinent witnesses give evidence in court?
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Did she and the other girl allegedly threatened with a knife by Luke give evidence in court? In a case constructed of circumstantial evidence two witnesses to Luke’s violent attacks with knives would be dynamite.
I agree.
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I meant the person in the extended family you mentioned, sorry. Do you mean that AR (whose full name I've found now, thanks) was mentioned?
Yes, out loud and Sandra nearly had a fit. He could sue the lot of them.
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No your not wrong. That was before I studied the facts and evidence. I couldn't comprehend a young child of 15 doing such a ghastly crime but the evidence took me in another direction.
I freely concede that the case is far from watertight though! If he didn't do it then he must be the unluckiest guy ever and I feel for him and his family but but but... his version of events just don't add up.
Why did Shane drop him in it?
He didn’t.
‘Mr Turnbull asked him: 'On that evening,about4.55pm,who did you think was in the house?'
Shane told him: 'No one at that time.' The advocate depute then asked: 'Did you see Luke when you went down after the internet session?'
The witness told the court:'I genuinely don't remember seeing my brother. He could have been there’
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Did these very pertinent witnesses give evidence in court?
When he was 12, Mitchell had used a knife to threaten the daughter of a family who were guests in the Mitchell house. He had climbed onto her bed, held the knife to her throat and asked for a kiss.
as far as i know this girl gave police statemnets but was not called to court
kvn gave statements to the police, as in comment above, but was never called to court
kt who regarded herself as his girlfriend same time as murder occured, appeared at court and gave evidence
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I agree.
So were two such important witnesses called to give evidence? After all we are told at least one witness gave a statement to the police shortly after the murder.
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Yes, out loud and Sandra nearly had a fit. He could sue the lot of them.
Can I ask more about the AR confession? In what context did he confess and to whom? And was Corinne referring to a different alleged confession?
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Can I ask more about the AR confession? In what context did he confess and to whom? And was Corinne referring to a different alleged confession?
As far as I can make out, he confessed to a fellow inmate in jail, and it was escalated from there. Has to be the same person, surely, but who knows with this case?
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extract from article in Daily Mail 22nd January 2005.
Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
So she did tell the police.
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So were two such important witnesses called to give evidence? After all we are told at least one witness gave a statement to the police shortly after the murder.
Are prosecutors allowed to present past behaviours or crimes in court as evidence? Can the defence team argue that they are prejudicial and should not be permitted?
Or maybe she was too terrified to agree to appear? If he’d gone free she may have felt extremely vulnerable.
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No your not wrong. That was before I studied the facts and evidence. I couldn't comprehend a young child of 15 doing such a ghastly crime but the evidence took me in another direction.
I freely concede that the case is far from watertight though! If he didn't do it then he must be the unluckiest guy ever and I feel for him and his family but but but... his version of events just don't add up.
Why did Shane drop him in it?
There’s much more than this John
And it wasn’t just the evidence which took you in another direction it was the actions and behaviours of those involved - namely Corrine Mitchell & Sandra Lean
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This shows how evidence can be distorted.
Mitchell was far from normal. He had a warped predisposition towards knives and had actually assaulted one school girl with them just days before he killed Jodi Jones. He was reprimanded by Matthew Muraska, who helped run the local Army Cadet Force The Army Cadet Force (ACF). Asked about an incident with Mitchell, Mr Muraska said it had been in the summer of 2002 that he caught him with a knife.
"They were on parade at the end of the evening and I saw one cadet pass something to Luke. I asked Luke, 'What is that?' He removed the knife from his pocket and handed it to me.
"I opened the knife. It was about six or seven inches long, a lock- type knife with a pointed blade," said Mr Muraska. "I held it up so all the cadets could see. I said that I never, ever wanted to see a knife like that in the Army Cadet Force...there was no place for a knife like that...a knife such as that was made for one purpose and one purpose only.
"A young cadet said, 'Killing' and I said, 'Yes, exactly.' I said I doubted the legality of such a knife and that carrying such a knife was probably totally illegal."
Mr Muraska said he had to give back the knife to Mitchell. In the past, knives would be confiscated and destroyed, but a policeman had pointed out that such action was theft.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-13056511.html
Luke was handed the knife, it’s obvious from the article that there’s no evidence that it was his to begin with. Does this prove that knife carrying among Luke’s peer group was common? Was Mr Muraska called to give evidence in court ?
ETA It seems Mr Muraska did give evidence but to what....Luke being given a knife? Further it makes it all the more strange that the girl allegedly attacked at the platoon meeting wasn’t called to the stand.
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This shows how evidence can be distorted.
Mitchell was far from normal. He had a warped predisposition towards knives and had actually assaulted one school girl with them just days before he killed Jodi Jones. He was reprimanded by Matthew Muraska, who helped run the local Army Cadet Force The Army Cadet Force (ACF). Asked about an incident with Mitchell, Mr Muraska said it had been in the summer of 2002 that he caught him with a knife.
"They were on parade at the end of the evening and I saw one cadet pass something to Luke. I asked Luke, 'What is that?' He removed the knife from his pocket and handed it to me.
"I opened the knife. It was about six or seven inches long, a lock- type knife with a pointed blade," said Mr Muraska. "I held it up so all the cadets could see. I said that I never, ever wanted to see a knife like that in the Army Cadet Force...there was no place for a knife like that...a knife such as that was made for one purpose and one purpose only.
"A young cadet said, 'Killing' and I said, 'Yes, exactly.' I said I doubted the legality of such a knife and that carrying such a knife was probably totally illegal."
Mr Muraska said he had to give back the knife to Mitchell. In the past, knives would be confiscated and destroyed, but a policeman had pointed out that such action was theft.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-13056511.html
Luke was handed the knife, it’s obvious from the article that there’s no evidence that it was his to begin with. Does this prove that knife carrying among Luke’s peer group was common? Was Mr Muraska called to give evidence in court ?
If it wasn't his to begin with what was it doing in his pocket and why was the knife given back to him? Why didn't Mitchell pipe up and say it wasn't his? I don't see the distortion here.
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If it wasn't his to begin with what was it doing in his pocket and why was the knife given back to him? Why didn't Mitchell pipe up and say it wasn't his? I don't see the distortion here.
I do
The person who originally posted
No guessing who they will be
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I do
The person who originally posted
No guessing who they will be
"They were on parade at the end of the evening and I saw one cadet pass something to Luke. I asked Luke, 'What is that?' He removed the knife from his pocket and handed it to me.”
It seems that it wasn’t Luke’s knife and if it was why did his friend have it? Was he interested in knives too?
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Luke Mitchell
"So what if I am a Goth in a Catholic school? So what if I dress in baggy clothes?
Just because I am more violent than others and cut myself, does that justify some pompous git of a teacher to refer me to a psychiatrist?
"Just because I have chosen to follow the teachings of Satan doesn't mean I need psychiatric help."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4187007.stm
It’s there in back and white from Luke Mitchell 👆🏽 he chose to ‘follow the teachings of Satan’
Anyone know how old he was when he wrote the above?
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"They were on parade at the end of the evening and I saw one cadet pass something to Luke. I asked Luke, 'What is that?' He removed the knife from his pocket and handed it to me.”
It seems that it wasn’t Luke’s knife and if it was why did his friend have it? Was he interested in knives too?
Perhaps Luke passed it to him to look at earlier and his friend was passing it back? Are you denying that Luke had knives?
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All members posting on this thread are reminded to comply with the forum rules. This is a sensitive subject and comments must reflect that fact.
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It’s there in back and white from Luke Mitchell 👆🏽 he chose to ‘follow the teachings of Satan’
Is that a crime?
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Is that a crime?
What does Satan teach?
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What does Satan teach?
Nothing. The Church of Satan doesn't believe in a theistic Satan
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Nothing. The Church of Satan doesn't believe in a theistic Satan
If the Church of Satan teaches nothing then how can someone say they follow the teachings of Satan?
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If the Church of Satan teaches nothing then how can someone say they follow the teachings of Satan?
Presumably if they mean the teachings of the church, which seem like libertarian self-centredness to me. They're not criminal beliefs
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Presumably if they mean the teachings of the church, which seem like libertarian self-centredness to me. They're not criminal beliefs
“Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, smash him on the other!” - Anton LaVey, The Satanic Bible
i really dont think theres anything in the satanism stuff and if tehre was any seriosu time spent on it in court there probably should not have been
BUT its easy to see how someone with already a violent predisposition could be drawn to it? libertarian self-centredness is inherently violent. i'm number one, screw everyone else.
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“Hate your enemies with a whole heart, and if a man smite you on one cheek, smash him on the other!” - Anton LaVey, The Satanic Bible
i really dont think theres anything in the satanism stuff and if tehre was any seriosu time spent on it in court there probably should not have been
BUT its easy to see how someone with already a violent predisposition could be drawn to it? libertarian self-centredness is inherently violent. i'm number one, screw everyone else.
That particular LaVey quote sounds pretty good to me! I don't think Luke's supposed belief in Satanism matter at all, that's why I questioned whether those beliefs were criminal (and if they're not, whether they're important)
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That particular LaVey quote sounds pretty good to me! I don't think Luke's supposed belief in Satanism matter at all, that's why I questioned whether those beliefs were criminal (and if they're not, whether they're important)
They may not matter but then again they don’t really help do they? I mean asking for books on satanism whilst you’re banged up to enable you to practice your religion whilst simultaneously hoping to have your murder conviction for a brutal and sadistic attack on a young girl overturned is really not very helpful to your cause is it?
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Is that a crime?
You seem to have missed the point Danni but it’s not your fault you appear to have fallen for the con
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Please keep the discussion On Topic and civil. Thank you
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So Luke Mitchel had used a knife to threaten/assault females previously
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You seem to have missed the point Danni but it’s not your fault you appear to have fallen for the con
I haven't fallen for any con. I think Luke Mitchell is a very good suspect. I don't think his supposed Satanism matters though, do you?
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. Do you even care who killed Jodi?
I remain of the firm view Luke Mitchell killed Jodi🌻
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I haven't fallen for any con. I think Luke Mitchell is a very good suspect. I don't think his supposed Satanism matters though, do you?
Thanks for clarifying Danni - on its own not so much but when you look at the totality of the evidence against him it’s relevant
and especially how he carried out the murder and of the possible ‘ritualistic’ element
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I remain of the firm view Luke Mitchell killed Jodi🌻
No...really?
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Thanks for clarifying Danni - on its own not so much but when you look at the totality of the evidence against him it’s relevant
What evidence?
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What does Corrine Mitchell say about Luke’s behaviour regarding the numerous knife incidents linked to her son and females ?
When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him
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Thanks for clarifying Danni - on its own not so much but when you look at the totality of the evidence against him it’s relevant
and especially how he carried out the murder and of the possible ritualistic element
What ritualistic elements? Are there even rituals for human sacrifice that Luke accessed or could have accessed? I read the relevant part of the Satanic Bible about sacrifice (for this case, not because I was interested otherwise!) and it doesn't go into any rituals or details. And it rules out child sacrifice
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What does Corrine Mitchell say about Luke’s behaviour regarding the numerous knife incidents linked to her son and females ?
When he was 12 he threatened his then girlfriend with a knife because she refused to have sex with him
Numerous knife attacks? Did any victim of these attacks give evidence in court and if not why not? Imagine the impact of that testimony.
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I believe posters were already warned today about making off topic remarks towards non members.
Be WARNED!
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Numerous knife attacks? Did any victim of these attacks give evidence in court and if not why not? Imagine the impact of that testimony.
There could have been very valid reasons why not, they’ve already been mentioned today and you have ignored them to keep on asking the same question.
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What ritualistic elements? Are there even rituals for human sacrifice that Luke accessed or could have accessed? I read the relevant part of the Satanic Bible about sacrifice (for this case, not because I was interested otherwise!) and it doesn't go into any rituals or details. And it rules out child sacrifice
I don’t know Danni - I’m not inside Luke Mitchell’s head like Sandra Lean appeared to allude to being during her live Q&A session with Kevin Wells and Jay Mack via their ‘Jibba Jabba’ podcast - that’s why I said ‘possible ritualistic element’
I’m aware the police ruled it out very early on in their investigation - 3 days after
’Jodi murder police rule out ritual killing’ - July 2003
‘DETECTIVES today ruled out a link with Satanism or black magic in the hunt for the killer of murdered schoolgirl Jodi Jones.
They dismissed reports suggesting she had been the victim of a ritual killing and quashed local rumours that she had been disembowelled during a savage knife attack.
Murder squad officers broke their silence today to end speculation.
A spokesman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "We have found no link between Jodi’s death and anything connected with Satanism or black magic. It is not an avenue of inquiry we are following."
https://www.scotsman.com/news/jodi-murder-police-rule-out-ritual-killing-2508436
But then it seems the lawyers for the prosecution introduced it in the murder trial or did that happen after Luke Mitchell was found guilty?
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Numerous knife attacks? Did any victim of these attacks give evidence in court and if not why not? Imagine the impact of that testimony
I said ‘knife incidents’ not knife attacks
What does Corrine Mitchell say about Luke’s behaviour regarding the numerous knife incidents linked to her son and females ?
Imagine the impact of that testimony
Did Donald Findlay again successfully argue evidence of these incidents should not be heard ?
What do the Mitchell’s and Sandra Lean say about this?
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I said ‘knife incidents’ not knife attacks
Did Donald Findlay again successfully argue evidence of these incidents should not be heard ?
What do the Mitchell’s and Sandra Lean say about this?
The alleged incident when Luke put a knife to a girl’s throat could certainly be called an attack and on what ground could Findlay argue that the evidence was inadmissible? Evidence pointing to the accused state of mind would be very relevant.
Are the Mitchells and Lean’s opinion important? Be honest...you would just trash anything they said anyway.
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The alleged incident when Luke put a knife to a girl’s throat could certainly be called an attack and on what ground could Findlay argue that the evidence was inadmissible? Evidence pointing to the accused state of mind would be very relevant.
Are the Mitchells and Lean’s opinion important? Be honest...you would just trash anything they said anyway.
John's been asking them for many years to provide evidence of Luke Mitchell's innocence.
The prosecution didn't need to drag young girls onto the stand to give evidence against Mitchell, they had a sufficiency anyway.
The moment his own brother couldn't back up his claimed alibi was the moment the case was lost.
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What do the Mitchell’s and Sandra Lean say about this?
Show me what they have said about the incidents involving Luke Mitchell, girls and knives or do they minimise his behaviour and pretend these domestic abusive incidents didn’t occur?
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John's been asking them for many years to provide evidence of Luke Mitchell's innocence.
The prosecution didn't need to drag young girls onto the stand to give evidence against Mitchell, they had a sufficiency anyway.
The moment his own brother couldn't back up his claimed alibi was the moment the case was lost.
What did the prosecution have? No forensics. An eyewitness sighting where the eye witness couldn’t point out the person she saw in court. Three witnesses whose witness statements changed over time in exactly the same way. A brother who said that Luke could have been in the house ( cite posted earlier ). I’m relatively new to this case so was there anything else?
As far as I can see there was not one witness in court who gave a single account of Luke using a knife aggressively towards anyone so yes the girls really would have been helpful to the prosecution.
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Show me what they have said about the incidents involving Luke Mitchell, girls and knives or do they minimise his behaviour and pretend these domestic abusive incidents didn’t occur?
There is are credible incidents.
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I don’t know Danni - I’m not inside Luke Mitchell’s head like Sandra Lean appeared to allude to being during her live Q&A session with Kevin Wells and Jay Mack via their ‘Jibba Jabba’ podcast - that’s why I said ‘possible ritualistic element’
I’m aware the police ruled it out very early on in their investigation - 3 days after
’Jodi murder police rule out ritual killing’ - July 2003
‘DETECTIVES today ruled out a link with Satanism or black magic in the hunt for the killer of murdered schoolgirl Jodi Jones.
They dismissed reports suggesting she had been the victim of a ritual killing and quashed local rumours that she had been disembowelled during a savage knife attack.
Murder squad officers broke their silence today to end speculation.
A spokesman for Lothian and Borders Police said: "We have found no link between Jodi’s death and anything connected with Satanism or black magic. It is not an avenue of inquiry we are following."
https://www.scotsman.com/news/jodi-murder-police-rule-out-ritual-killing-2508436
But then it seems the lawyers for the prosecution introduced it in the murder trial or did that happen after Luke Mitchell was found guilty?
Excerpt from ‘No Smoke’ by Sandra Lean [Allegedly withdrawn from publishers)
‘Still, the prosecution repeated its contention that Luke had "copied" the Black Dahlia murder because, in part, he was so heavily influenced by Manson. Even the Judge, after the jury returned their verdict, would show his complete lack of understanding on this point – i.e., that something which happens after an event cannot possibly have influenced that event’
In reality who’s ‘complete lack of understanding on this point’ was it?
Luke Mitchell
"So what if I am a Goth in a Catholic school? So what if I dress in baggy clothes?
Just because I am more violent than others and cut myself, does that justify some pompous git of a teacher to refer me to a psychiatrist?
"Just because I have chosen to follow the teachings of Satan doesn't mean I need psychiatric help."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4187007.stm
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Show me what they have said about the incidents involving Luke Mitchell, girls and knives or do they minimise his behaviour and pretend these domestic abusive incidents didn’t occur?
Excerpt from ‘No Smoke’ by Sandra Lean
‘Although it was clear that Luke indulged in cannabis, the same was true of Jodi – the prosecution tried to imply that Luke had somehow corrupted her, even though he received his cannabis from Jodi‟s cousin! Indeed, several school-friend witnesses were also shown to indulge in cannabis, as was Jodi‟s brother, Joseph, who was also supplied by cousin John [Name removed]. Amidst this particular group, cannabis was hardly an indicator of anything odd or peculiar, yet the claims that it was cannabis which fuelled the „frenzied‟ attack on Jodi were repeatedly reported. Unfortunately, no expert witnesses on the effects of cannabis, or its likelihood of fuelling such an attack were called, either by the prosecution or the defence; however, there is a general understanding that the effects of cannabis are quite the opposite to those claimed by the prosecution’
What about Luke Mitchell’s behaviour?
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Further excerpt from ‘No Smoke’ by Sandra Lean
‘Another complete red herring was the finding of bottles of urine found in Luke‟s bedroom. Just what, exactly, these had to do with Luke‟s likelihood of having been Jodi‟s murderer is still unclear, yet the finding of these bottles was given great significance by both the prosecution and the press, in a blatant attempt to encourage suspicion and revulsion towards Luke Mitchell.
The police/experts could have considered the ‘bottles of urine’ as evidence of a possible sign of a paraphilia emerging?
Or that his possible paraphilia for collecting and storing his own urine in numerous bottles and wrapping some of them in his socks and putting them in his bedroom drawers was normal?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=66.msg490168#msg490168
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What ritualistic elements? Are there even rituals for human sacrifice that Luke accessed or could have accessed? I read the relevant part of the Satanic Bible about sacrifice (for this case, not because I was interested otherwise!) and it doesn't go into any rituals or details. And it rules out child sacrifice
Maybe Sandra Lean should have consulted with someone like Richard Hoskins
According to Richard Hoskins, Craig Dobbie consulted with him in order to help him understand why Luke Mitchell murdered [Name removed].
He claims to have been profoundly affected by the [Name removed]'s case
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=DyyAmjhB-koC&pg=PT207&lpg=PT207&dq=richard+hoskins+jodi+jones+murder&source=bl&ots=hsAyk5XLGi&sig=Hvf223lApZ2GelCI_ezF_sbyWaw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiA6ZSLw87dAhVBCuwKHVG1DWkQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=richard%20hoskins%20jodi%20jones%20murder&f=false
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I’m not sure where the claim came from that Luke had ever seen the watercolours of the Black Dahlia painted by Manson but even Detective Constable Brunton when on the stand admitted that he was not shown anything that came from Mitchell's home which related to Marilyn Manson in connection with Short.
You can’t copy a painting you’ve never seen and there is no evidence that Luke knew anything about the Black Dahlia case prior to the murder.
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Were the school aware of Luke Mitchell’s abuse of females and if so what do reports on this say about him?
Does anyone know?
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Were the school aware of Luke Mitchell’s abuse of females and if so what do reports on this say about him?
Does anyone know?
If the school staff read newspapers then I’m sure that they would have been aware of them.
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But then it seems the lawyers for the prosecution introduced it in the murder trial or did that happen after Luke Mitchell was found guilty?
Sandra Lean did pick up on this in ‘No Smoke’
Excerpt:
‘The implication is obvious, but the police did nothing to refute or discourage these reports, although they did "break their silence" to quash rumours that the murder had been ritualistic, or had had black magic or satanic connotations (as reported in a few newspapers.) How ironic, then, that this satanic connection would ultimately provide one of the main planks in the prosecution‟s case!
The thing is lawyers - both for the prosecution and the defence will use no end of manipulative tactics and distortions in order to present their case - it’s what they do
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I’m not sure where the claim came from that Luke had ever seen the watercolours of the Black Dahlia painted by Manson but even Detective Constable Brunton when on the stand admitted that he was not shown anything that came from Mitchell's home which related to Marilyn Manson in connection with Short.
You can’t copy a painting you’ve never seen and there is no evidence that Luke knew anything about the Black Dahlia case prior to the murder.
and that is true, Luke never saw it but it is easier for people to dismiss that fact
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and that is true, Luke never saw it but it is easier for people to dismiss that fact
Imo, you have no idea what he did and didn’t see
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Sandra Lean di.... ......ick up on this in ‘No Smoke’
Excerpt:
‘The implication is obvious, but the police did nothing to refute or discourage these reports, although they did "break their silence" to quash rumours that the murder had been ritualistic, or had had black magic or satanic connotations (as reported in a few newspapers.) How ironic, then, that this satanic connection would ultimately provide one of the main planks in the prosecution‟s case!
The thing is lawyers - both for the prosecution and the defence will use no end of manipulative tactics and distortions in order to present their case - it’s what they do
Again - I don’t use words like this
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Imo, you have no idea what he did and didn’t see
There is absolutely no evidence he saw it.
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Imo, you have no idea what he did and didn’t see
YOU don't have any idea about any of it yet devote your life to it &^^&*
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There is absolutely no evidence he saw it.
We know but some won't believe it no matter how many times they are told
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We know but some won't believe it no matter how many times they are told
It’s such a waste of energy to get irate over something that may not have happened.
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Absolutely
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There aren't actually any alternative suspects. What we have is a list of names belonging to male members of the Jones extended family and their associates. Sandra Lean and Billy Middleton have systematically gone through just about every one of them over the last two years.
I even provided details to Luke's defence way back in 2004 of a guy who actually confessed to the killing and had the means, motive and opportunity to have done so. He also had a history of attacking young women and was in the habit of cycling around country lanes looking for potential victims. As recently as last year his new lawyers approached me for this same information.
There certainly is suspicion that others may have been involved and at least one young hooligan and a member of the Jones extended family was forced out of the area after being linked to the murder by his actions after the event.
The overriding fact in the case however is that Mitchell, dressed in his green Bomber jacket and black t-shirt, was seen and identified just yards from the murder scene by two women at 5.42pm which was a matter of 27 minutes after Jodi's murder. Mitchell was later seen a short distance further along that same road by several witnesses.
His alibi is also highly suspect as the one and only person who was supposed to have been at home with him that afternoon, his brother Shane, denied seeing or even hearing him in the house. That for me says it all.
2004 John - almost as long as Sandra Lean
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We know but some won't believe it no matter how many times they are told
@)(++(*
More projection 6&%5%
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2004 John - almost as long as Sandra Lean
She hasn't been doing it 17 years. Remember she and Middleton (remember him) stood down from the case after a massive falling out. So the 17 continuous years is yet another lie.
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She hasn't been doing it 17 years. Remember she and Middleton (remember him) stood down from the case after a massive falling out. So the 17 continuous years is yet another lie.
She accepted Mitchell’s guilt in 2014 - just as she did Halls
Her words,
“I’ve wasted 10 years of my life”
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She accepted Mitchell’s guilt in 2014 - just as she did Halls
Her words,
“I’ve wasted 10 years of my life”
Is Sandra Lean now attempting to deny that other knife threats were made on young innocent girls by an out of control Luke Mitchell?
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She accepted Mitchell’s guilt in 2014 - just as she did Halls
Her words,
“I’ve wasted 10 years of my life”
Really?!
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Is Sandra Lean now attempting to deny that other knife threats were made on young innocent girls by an out of control Luke Mitchell?
How many knife threats were made on young innocent girls by Luke Mitchell?
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How many knife threats were made on young innocent girls by Luke Mitchell?
Wrong question. How many credible reports of knife threats.
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Wrong question. How many credible reports of knife threats.
And you've decided you're the authority on what's credible.
Also, I wasn't asking you - that would be pointless.
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And you've decided you're the authority on what's credible.
Also, I wasn't asking you - that would be pointless.
This is a public forum so I decided to answer. I don’t mind at all if you answer any of my questions not directed towards you.
I’m not an authority on anything regarding the case but what I do know is that when a girl who has claimed that they had a knife held to their throat by an individual accused of a viscous knife murder is not called to court by the prosecution to give evidence then it would appear that the crown hasn’t found her story credible.
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This is a public forum so I decided to answer. I don’t mind at all if you answer any of my questions not directed towards you.
I’m not an authority on anything regarding the case but what I do know is that when a girl who has claimed that they had a knife held to their throat by an individual accused of a viscous knife murder is not called to court by the prosecution to give evidence then it would appear that the crown hasn’t found her story credible.
You don't know any such thing - you're guessing.
You're right about one thing, though - you're not an authority.
And you will back Dr Lean to the hilt on any point. I wonder why?
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You don't know any such thing - you're guessing.
You're right about one thing, though - you're not an authority.
And you will back Dr Lean to the hilt on any point. I wonder why?
Okay then give me one reason why the prosecution wouldn’t call her when her evidence could prove so crucial?
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Okay then give me one reason why the prosecution wouldn’t call her when her evidence could prove so crucial?
How could anyone not in court at the time possibly know that?
I'm not going to guess, either - that's your thing.
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We know but some won't believe it no matter how many times they are told
@)(++(*
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YOU don't have any idea about any of it yet devote your life to it &^^&*
6&%5%
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You don't know any such thing - you're guessing.
You're right about one thing, though - you're not an authority.
And you will back Dr Lean to the hilt on any point. I wonder why?
Anyone posting on here who is Pro Luke and his innocence is told they are wrong no matter what. Others who believe him to be guilty can post anything they choose, however ridiculous and its accepted as a FACT. funny that...
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it is clear that some people on here do not like or agree with anything Sandra Lean says
You don't know any such thing - you're guessing.
You're right about one thing, though - you're not an authority.
And you will back Dr Lean to the hilt on any point. I wonder why?
Anyone posting on here who is Pro Luke and his innocence is told they are wrong no matter what. Others who believe him to be guilty can post anything they choose, however ridiculous and its accepted as a FACT. funny that...
What lessons, if any, did Sandra Lean learn following the exposure of Simon Halls guilt ?
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Anyone posting on here who is Pro Luke and his innocence is told they are wrong no matter what. Others who believe him to be guilty can post anything they choose, however ridiculous and its accepted as a FACT. funny that...
I am curious to know how you can be certain of Mitchell's innocence. Has it ever occurred to you that you may in fact be lending your support to a vicious and evil murderer?
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Anyone posting on here who is Pro Luke and his innocence is told they are wrong no matter what. Others who believe him to be guilty can post anything they choose, however ridiculous and its accepted as a FACT. funny that...
Nope - I'm not saying Faith is wrong - she's being asked to entertain the possibility that LM may have threatened girls with knives, based on actual accounts of people saying just that, but she would prefer to say that their accounts aren't credible rather than just admit the possibility.
I don't know whether LM is guilty or innocent - it's possible that Dr Lean could be right about his innocence, but I don't like how she's going about things, and that documentary annoyed me with it's one-sidedness.
Also, there is absolutely nothing remotely funny about this case.
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she's being asked to entertain the possibility that LM may have threatened girls with knives, based on actual accounts of people saying just that, but she would prefer to say that their accounts aren't credible rather than just admit the possibility.
Why?
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Is Sandra Lean now attempting to deny that other knife threats were made on young innocent girls by an out of control Luke Mitchell?
Is there a clip of her claiming this?
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Nope - I'm not saying Faith is wrong - she's being asked to entertain the possibility that LM may have threatened girls with knives, based on actual accounts of people saying just that, but she would prefer to say that their accounts aren't credible rather than just admit the possibility.
I don't know whether LM is guilty or innocent - it's possible that Dr Lean could be right about his innocence, but I don't like how she's going about things, and that documentary annoyed me with it's one-sidedness.
Also, there is absolutely nothing remotely funny about this case.
Again jump on one word and take it out of context. Proves my point. Nowhere did I say anything about this case was funny
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Again jump on one word and take it out of context
@)(++(*
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Again jump on one word and take it out of context. Proves my point. Nowhere did I say anything about this case was funny
Proves absolutely nothing.
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Anyone posting on here who is Pro Luke and his innocence is told they are wrong no matter what. Others who believe him to be guilty can post anything they choose, however ridiculous and its accepted as a FACT. funny that...
Don’t you find the following ridiculous?
Excerpt by Sandra Lean from ‘No Smoke’
‘The similarities with the others by this stage hardly need to be highlighted: poor police procedures leading to evidence being contaminated or lost, heavy emphasis on innuendo and speculation, and accusations of behaviours which have never been previously displayed. Like Simon Hall and John Taft, a central aspect to the case involves a piece of clothing claimed to have belonged to the defendant, but that claim is never, at any point, backed up by proof. Also, as with Simon Hall, the lack of a definitive time of death allows a presumption to be presented almost as fact – neither Luke nor Simon had a cast iron alibi at a specific time, therefore the prosecution presumes that to be the time of death.
The prosecution were found to have been accurate with regards ‘time of death’ of Halls victim JA
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How could anyone not in court at the time possibly know that?
I'm not going to guess, either - that's your thing.
We know because such a crucial witness’s testimony would have been reported in the press...and it wasn’t. It really isn’t rocket science.
You can’t form a coherent explanation why this crucial witness wouldn’t be called to court, thats fine but you really do lose the argument when you lower this discourse to one of personal snipes.
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Anyone posting on here who is Pro Luke and his innocence is told they are wrong no matter what. Others who believe him to be guilty can post anything they choose, however ridiculous and its accepted as a FACT. funny that...
It does seem that way.
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We know because such a crucial witness’s testimony would have been reported in the press...and it wasn’t. It really isn’t rocket science.
You can’t form a coherent explanation why this crucial witness wouldn’t be called to court, thats fine but you really do lose the argument when you lower this discourse to one of personal snipes.
You are just being silly
Suspect it was down to ‘he said’ - ‘she said’
However in up to date research carried out by Prof Jane Moncton Smith on ‘intimidate partner homicide’ and the 8 stage timeline
‘Pre relationship history of allegations” of behaviour is a red flag regardless of a conviction (Stage 1)
Stage 2 & 3 are
2. Early relationship behaviours: early commitment
3. Relationship behaviours: risk markers
For me Luke Mitchell ticked these boxes
He’d already reached stage 7 - because we know he carried knives
And Mitchell mentioned suicide - which comes under stage 8 - the final stage
Jane Monkton Smith has a 30-year career in investigating sexual and fatal violence btw
And for anyone who may be interested her book ‘In Control: Dangerous Relationships and How They End in Murder’ may be of interest
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You can’t form a coherent explanation why this crucial witness wouldn’t be called to court,
Luke Mitchell appears to me to have been ’Thin skinned and confrontational’ - these are warning signs
‘Inability to accept challenge’ - another warning sign
Mitchell was also showing sign of ‘sexual aggression’ at the age of 12 (Stage 3)
‘Threats to suicide or kill’ - further warning signs (Stage 3)
Stage 5 - ‘Concerning behaviours become more frequent’ & ‘Concerning behaviours become more serious or severe’
Didn’t he also jab Jodi in the leg with a knife
‘Suicide’ is stage 7 - and Luke Mitchell referred to this
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Luke Mitchell appears to me to be have been ’Thin skinned and confrontational’ - these are warning signs
And I appreciate your input but with the greatest respect a) you have, as far as I’m aware, never met Luke and b) you were unable to determine guilt in those closest to you.
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We know because such a crucial witness’s testimony would have been reported in the press...and it wasn’t. It really isn’t rocket science.
You can’t form a coherent explanation why this crucial witness wouldn’t be called to court, thats fine but you really do lose the argument when you lower this discourse to one of personal snipes.
You have no way of knowing that.
In the absence of facts, you can't just assume, suppose or surmise.
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Is Sandra Lean now attempting to deny that other knife threats were made on young innocent girls by an out of control Luke Mitchell?
For me this just shows how out of touch, incompetent and unprofessional she is
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And I appreciate your input but with the greatest respect a) you have, as far as I’m aware, never met Luke and b) you were unable to determine guilt in those closest to you.
@)(++(*
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And I appreciate your input but
b) you were unable to determine guilt in those closest to you.
I wasn’t no
Neither was Sandra Lean
Simon Hall’s behaviour began to change towards the end of 2012
Billy Middletons behaviour changed before Sandra Lean went into partnership with him (2010)
Behaviour changes in intimidate partner relationships can be warning signs/red flags
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And I appreciate your input but with the greatest respect a) you have, as far as I’m aware, never met Luke and b) you were unable to determine guilt in those closest to you.
Do you think that applies to Mrs Michell too?
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Do you think that applies to Mrs Michell too?
Killers and their mothers is a whole other conversation
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And I appreciate your input but with the greatest respect a) you have, as far as I’m aware, never met Luke
Have you met the Mitchell’s or Sandra Lean?
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Luke Mitchell appears to me to be have been ’Thin skinned and confrontational’ - these are warning signs
‘Inability to accept challenge’ - another warning sign
Mitchell was also showing sign of ‘sexual aggression’ at the age of 12 (Stage 3)
‘Threats to suicide or kill’ - further warning signs (Stage 3)
Stage 5 - ‘Concerning behaviours become more frequent’ & ‘Concerning behaviours become more serious or severe’
Didn’t he also jab Jodi in the leg with a knife
‘Suicide’ is stage 7 - and Luke Mitchell referred to this
Stage 8 - the final stage - ‘stage missing person’
I identify all 8 stages for Luke Mitchell
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Is Sandra Lean now attempting to deny that other knife threats were made on young innocent girls by an out of control Luke Mitchell?
Victim blaming protects perpetrators and many of us here know Sandra Lean has form for this type of behaviour
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Is Sandra Lean now attempting to deny that other knife threats were made on young innocent girls by an out of control Luke Mitchell?
Myths like this can be dangerous to victims - so why does Sandra Lean choose to behave like this?
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Wrong question. How many credible reports of knife threats.
There were ‘allegations’ of such - fullstop!
The police in this case appear to have been ahead of their time
Luke Mitchell’s behaviour leading up to the murder of Jodi Jones (intimate partner femicide) was prevalent in all 8 stage’s
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Wrong question. How many credible reports of knife threats.
*&^^&
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There were ‘allegations’ of such - fullstop!
The police in this case appear to have been ahead of their time
Luke Mitchell’s behaviour leading up to the murder of Jodi Jones (intimate partner femicide) was prevalent in all 8 stage’s
I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn a great deal of those people ‘supporting’ killer Luke Mitchell, Corrine and Sandra Lean are themselves unable to recognise the warning signs of domestic abuse in their own relationships
On the night I learned Simon Hall has burgled Zenith windows (5th Nov 2012) I recall telling 2 females - ‘if he could lie about that what else could he lie about’
They thought I was being silly
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And I appreciate your input but with the greatest respect a) you have, as far as I’m aware, never met Luke and b) you were unable to determine guilt in those closest to you.
Incidentally, there were numerous people who had never met Simon Hall but continued to deny his guilt even after his guilt was exposed and he confessed - how do you explain that?
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but I don't like how she's going about things
Sandra Leans behaviour is also alarming
And my concerns remain for people like J Metcalfe (Robin Garbutt innocence fraud case) - who I firmly view as having been exploited
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That doesn’t mean Luke isn’t innocent.
It does seem that way.
It ‘seems’ as though you are being taken in by the con
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Luke Mitchell appears to me to have been ’Thin skinned and confrontational’ - these are warning signs
'One time he was on the shooting range and got told off by one of the instructors. All of a sudden he shouted something, threw down his gun and stormed off.
'There were other times, too. If someone so much as criticised him, he would lose his temper and shout and swear at them.’
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Do you think that applies to Mrs Michell too?
I take it you are referring to my last comment and yes it’s possible in every relationship. Fortunately I’m basing my opinion on my own research and not Corrine Mitchell’s say so.
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Bumped for newbies.
Here’s the whole article from the Times which has probably been posted on here before but for newbies (like me) it certainly provides the other side to the TV documentary- a long read, but with lots of information that wasn’t covered in the documentary.
The murderous art that unmasked a cruel killer
Police investigating the murder of Jodi Jones were shocked by the dark fascinations of her boyfriend. But can the work of musicians such as Marilyn Manson be blamed for inspiring brutality or does it reflect the turmoil of a disturbed mind
Police investigating the murder of the 14-year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones had a prime suspect — her boyfriend Luke Mitchell. He was due to meet her the night she disappeared and had found her body in the darkness of a desolate Midlothian wood. But to the frustration of the police there was no forensic evidence linking him, or anybody else, to the crime.
To understand the way Mitchell’s mind worked, detectives immersed themselves in the youth cultures of goth, grunge, rap and nu-metal. For the mostly middle-aged officers it was a revelation. Given what they knew about how Jodi met her gruesome death, they became convinced that Mitchell’s musical taste betrayed the mind of a sadistic killer.
It was the suspect himself who sparked this line of inquiry. In the opening days of the investigation in the summer of 2003, as detectives went about their door-to-door inquiries in Dalkeith, Mitchell had spoken to officers in the street about music containing murderous themes. Displaying the arrogance he was to show throughout the case, he asked if the policeman knew the song Kim by the rapper Eminem.
Detectives discovered the song was about somebody murdering his wife. It was impossible to read the lyrics without a shiver of realisation that their chief suspect was a fan: “Don’t you get it bitch, no one can hear you?/Now shut the f*** up and get what’s comin’ to you./ You were supposed to love me./Now bleed, bitch, bleed!” Eminem was not Mitchell’s favourite musician. That honour went to Manson, the controversial American rock star. Mitchell was obsessive about Manson’s music, with its dark subject matter of suicide, violence, satanism and murder. When detectives dipped into the Manson repertoire it only heightened their concerns — and their suspicions. Especially songs such as King Kill 33:
“I will destroy you with one simple hole.
“The world that hates me has taken its toll but now I have finally taken control.
“You wanted so bad to make me this thing.
“And I want you now to just kill the king.
“And I am not sorry, and I am not sorry: this is what you deserve.”
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There was more. Detectives discovered that two days after the killing, having already been questioned and forensically examined, Mitchell wound down by buying and watching a Manson DVD, The Golden Age of Grotesque.
It had a 15 certificate, and he bought it at his local Sainsbury’s along with some family shopping.
Amid darkened scenes illuminated by flickering torchlight, the DVD shows a girl’s naked body lying on the ground. In another part, two other girls are tied up and hooded.
More police research came across Manson’s paintings of the Black Dahlia victim Elizabeth Short, a Hollywood starlet whose murder in 1947 scandalised America. These stopped them in their tracks. The paintings showed injuries disturbingly similar to those inflicted on Jodi’s body — especially the large wounds on the side of the mouth stretching towards her ear, and an injury to the breast. Had the art and music of Marilyn Manson inspired, or even provoked, the most grisly murder Scotland had seen for a generation? Manson’s CDs and those of many other performers who explore horror and darkness are piled high in the untidy bedrooms of tens of thousands of teenagers across Britain. Their parents roll their eyes at their offspring’s musical choices and fashion excesses and shrug. Are goths really any different or more dangerous than other teenage fads from previous generations? After all, parents in earlier times were once scandalised by teddy boys and mods and hippies and punks. Is this really any different? Luke Mitchell’s murder of Jodi Jones has sparked a worried re-examination of these parental assumptions. As Mitchell starts a prison sentence “without limit of time” for Jodi’s murder, the case poses some unsettling questions for parents, politicians and the music industry.
Does macabre and death- obsessed music inspire acts of violence, self-harm and murder? Or is it simply the case that vulnerable and disturbed youngsters are attracted to it? Either way, can this music continue to be made available without any age restrictions — unlike feature films and computer games? Crucial to these considerations is a more difficult question, one that last week haunted the minds of millions of Scots as they watched the closing stages of the trial: what drove Mitchell, a boy too young to shave, to the sadistic murder of his girlfriend?
JODI and Luke both favoured the uniform of the goth — baggy black clothes and facial piercings. Mitchell had a piercing just below the centre of his bottom lip, which he would worry with his tongue, making it bob up and down. Jodi had one on the right-hand side of her bottom lip.
Although just 14 years old, Mitchell was obsessed with nihilism and the occult, particularly as expressed in the music of Nirvana and Manson, as well as nu-metal acts such as Slipknot. He fostered a look similar to that of the Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain, who was Jodi’s particular idol. Their favourite lyric was Cobain’s: “The finest day I ever had was when tomorrow never came.”
Both teenagers had a taste for the macabre. They would gather in Greyfriars Kirkyard in the centre of Edinburgh — generally regarded as one of the most eerily atmospheric graveyards in Scotland. There they would smoke cannabis — Mitchell always seemed to have a plentiful supply — among the ancient tombstones.
For some of the group that hung around Greyfriars, the surroundings whetted their appetite for horror. One of them was Sonny Devlin, from the Restalrig area of Edinburgh, who at 15 was a year older than the Dalkeith kids. By some grisly coincidence, it was June 30, 2003, the evening of Jodi’s murder, that Devlin and a younger friend chose to break into a Greyfriars tomb known as the last resting place of George “Bloody” Mackenzie, a 17th-century prosecutor of the Covenanters.
They disinterred a corpse and hacked off its head with a penknife. The boys then used the head to simulate oral sex, for the entertainment of their pals. The two boys were later arrested and became the first people in Scotland for more than a century to be convicted of “violation of a sepulchre”.
Mitchell’s friends had long been aware of his fascination for knives and the damage they could inflict.
When he was 12, Mitchell had used a knife to threaten the daughter of a family who were guests in the Mitchell house. He had climbed onto her bed, held the knife to her throat and asked for a kiss.
At an army cadet corps he attended in Bonnyrigg, a lock knife with a six-inch blade that he was carrying was confiscated by Matthew Muraska, the company leader. Mitchell would often show the other boys weapons he had improvised from blades and sticks.
A former girlfriend, Kara Van Nuil, who dated Mitchell for a few months in 2003 after meeting him at the cadets, described how he once grabbed her from behind and held a Swiss Army knife to her throat with the warning: “Don’t move, or I’ll gut you.” Just a month later, Jodi was dead.
While many fans of Manson’s music were happy simply to ally themselves with his idiosyncratic fashion sense and musical posturing, Mitchell went further. Satanic references were scrawled all over his school jotters. One read: “I offer my flesh, blood and soul to the dark lord of hell.” Another jotter had the words “Satan lives” on the front, and the sentence: “I have tasted the devil’s green blood.” On another Mitchell had written: “Evil is the way”.
Occult beliefs also emerged in Mitchell’s school work, causing alarm among teaching staff at his Catholic high school, St David’s in Dalkeith. In an essay called Pain and Suffering, prepared for a third-year English class, Mitchell wrote: “People like you need Satanic people like me to keep the balance . . . Once you shake hands with the devil you then have truly experienced life.”
After the teacher referred him to guidance staff, Mitchell wrote in another essay: “Just because I am more violent than others and cut myself, does that justify some pompous git of a teacher to refer me to a psychiatrist? Just because I have chosen to follow the teachings of Satan doesn’t mean I need psychiatric help.”
There were curiosities about the way he lived at the Mitchell family home, which, according to the wooden sign next to the front door, went by the name of “Bedlam”.
When his scarlet-painted bedroom was searched by police they found 20 bottles of his own urine under his bed. Mitchell’s parents, Corinne and Philip, split up in 1999, and his mother indulged him, giving him money and letting his girlfriends sleep in his room. She knew all about his cannabis use.
Mitchell often harmed himself. Once he scored the satanic number 666 into his arm “for a dare”. A former classmate, Michelle Tierney, later told police Mitchell had stubbed a cigarette out on his hand in front of her. He had then told her he had imagined getting stoned and killing someone. It would be “funny”, he said.
Jodi and her sister Janine had also been known to self-harm. The sisters had had a troubled childhood — their father Jimmy had committed suicide, aged 39, by hanging himself from a tree in the garden, six years before the death of his daughter. In her diary, Jodi had written: “Take the knife. All your pain can be taken by one slit, slit to your wrists. Be free, be happy, just like me.”
According to specialists in the occult, Jodi’s death bore many of the hallmarks of a ritual killing. She was naked but for a pair of socks, her wrists bound by the legs of her trousers. She was strangled, then while she was still alive her neck was slashed more than 20 times. A hole had been cut in her windpipe and the main artery in her neck had been severed almost all the way through. She had multiple injuries to her head, and wounds from her mouth to her ear. Careful cuts had been made around her eyes, as well as deep cuts on her left breast and right arm. The knife had been pushed deep into her mouth.
Few professionals involved in the case had ever witnessed anything so grim. Forensic pathologists concluded that such a murder was extremely rare, and was usually associated with somebody mentally disturbed or high on drugs.
So what was the motivation? Chief superintendent Craig Dobbie, who led the investigation, believes that Mitchell and Jodi had a furious row on the day of the murder after she discovered he was planning to take another girl on holiday. During the trial it emerged that he had been conducting a relationship with Kimberley Thomson, 15, from Perthshire, behind Jodi’s back and they had arranged to spend time together during the summer break.
“I think he told her at lunchtime that day (of her death) and she wanted to see him that night to talk about it so they arranged to meet.”
According to Dobbie’s account, they ended up in the woods between their homes. “A situation developed and she suffered a blow to her face. Her lip is cut. We later found some blood on a tree trunk and the lip bleeds quite a lot when it is cut. I think at this point she turned around and headed eastwards towards home, towards safety. But then she was struck on the head with something like the limb of a tree. Then she was strangled, her head was pulled up and her throat was cut. At that point she was dead.
“After a ‘normal’ murder, the person who committed it is then going to leg it or hide the body. But in this case the body is stripped and cut. Someone is living out a fantasy at this stage. This is something someone has wanted to do. We are now trying to understand the mind of the killer. We know the difference between right and wrong. But this person is outwith that so it is very difficult to understand why. The trial has heard potential influences such as Marilyn Manson ’s depiction of the Black Dahlia.
“Jodi’s breast was cut. Her abdomen was cut, the gash on the face was identical, there was a hole in the forehead. It’s there and we can’t avoid this simulation. This was not about sex, it was about escalating violence and the opportunity to perform injuries. We are not talking about some poor wee soul who some guy has raped. This is most horrific.”
As Jodi’s body was removed by ambulance, Mitchell is said to have sat coolly texting on his mobile. “In 85% of murder cases the attacker knows the victim, the local geography and lives within a five-mile radius,” said Dobbie. “I knew I wanted to eliminate all of Jodi’s male family members and associates, all the males who used that path and all local rough sleepers. Luke Mitchell was part of that group. A teacher from his school quickly came forward and raised concerns about the alarming writings in his jotter. That was worthy of further exploration. Was he into satan or dabbling, looking for an alternative religion or just sticking it up to his teachers? We couldn’t draw huge conclusions but were already learning that he carried knives. Then there was the incredulous discovery of the body.”
By early July, Mitchell had started to emerge as the prime suspect but the investigation was thwarted by a lack of any forensic evidence and with Mitchell’s almost unnatural resilience in the face of intense police scrutiny. What fascinated and frustrated detectives in equal measure was how a 14-year-old could commit such a frenzied attack and yet cover his tracks so efficiently.
More unsettling was the casual, contemptuous way he chatted with police dog handlers about their animals and mocked officers for allowing the bins in the street to be emptied before the search for a possible murder weapon had begun.
“He was always a very resilient, defiant and lippy lad,” said Dobbie. “He was much more confident than you would have expected. He was challenging and he liked to taunt. It was almost as if he was saying, ‘You’ll never solve this’.”
Mitchell was first questioned by police four days after Jodi’s death, yet neither the interview nor a search of his house provided any leads to tie him to the murder. It was the first indication police had that Mitchell would be no pushover. “For his age, he turned out to be a very challenging interviewee. He liked to mock,” said Dobbie. “In the interview he was confident and very controlling. He displayed a high level of intelligence.”
A month later, having exhausted other leads, police questioned Mitchell again. They knew they could only hold him for six hours and so the interview was planned in minute detail but again he proved elusive. “He was totally in control of himself and challenged the abilities and authority of the police. He had the mental ability to sit and take control of the interview and that’s incredible from someone who’s not previously been part of the criminal process or not come from a criminal family. He was not shocked or fazed or panicking. I have never seen someone so cool and calm and who needed to control the situation.”
Despite the lack of physical evidence, the police were building a circumstantial case against him. After collecting hundreds of witness statements they were able to piece together Mitchell’s movements, minute by minute, on the day of the murder and his story didn’t add up. The police report that named the teenager as the sole suspect placed particular emphasis on the fact that it was Mitchell who “discovered” Jodi’s body. It would allow prosecutors to convincingly assert that he had specialist knowledge of the murder scene.
Many psychologists are resistant to the idea that the root cause of Mitchell’s killing of Jodi was his fascination with death and the occult, as expressed through music.
Professor Cynthia McVey, of Glasgow Caledonian University, does not accept the link.
“Certainly if you watch a violent film, you learn the behaviour,” she says. “If you see someone sticking a knife in someone else you would know how to do that and potentially where to strike to do the most damage. Of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean it would induce violent behaviour.”
Her colleague, Professor Vince Egan, agrees, dismissing Manson as “just show business”. It would be foolish, he says, to take action against a form of music or culture because of a crime such as this.
“There were lots of things going wrong in Luke’s life that could have helped contribute to his problems. He was dealing in large amounts of cannabis, carrying knives, he was clearly very alienated,” he says.
Manson’s effect on the behaviour of young people has been examined by Dr Adrian North, a psychologist at the University of Leicester. He believes the music attracts those who are already disturbed.
“We asked people when they had started self-harming and other activities associated with this music, and the answer they give was that the self-harming or whatever came first. What our research showed was that Manson’s kind of music is attractive to people like this.”
Child psychologists such as Dr Jack Boyle agree that the problem arises when the fans are already in a vulnerable state. “If you have a very disturbed individual who may be losing contact with reality because of drugs and he listens to Manson then that is a different issue. Then the music could take on a different meaning entirely and people could misinterpret Manson’s music.”
Psychologists believe more work needs to be done to examine whether the music acts to legitimise the disturbing thoughts in vulnerable youngsters’ minds, giving them a glamorous gloss or encouraging them. Manson himself believes his critics are missing the point. Asked about his fascination with serial killers he once said: “My fascination is similar to that of people stopping to look at car accidents or wanting to go to an amusement park and get on a ride that says ‘Ride at your own risk’. People love their fear, whether they realise it or not. People are afraid of death but love to get closer to it. I think that’s why there is a need for Marilyn Manson in America.”
TO SOME politicians, however, the reality that vulnerable or disturbed youngsters are drawn to music like Manson’s is enough justification for new curbs on it being sold to children. Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem MP, yesterday called for age certification of CDs to bring them into line with computer games and films.
This weekend in Dalkeith and Midlothian there is relief that the verdict was “guilty” rather than the “not proven” some had feared. Thoughts are with Jodi’s family. Now justice has been done they must try to pick up the pieces of their lives — knowing that one piece will be missing for ever. On Friday Jodi’s mother released a poem her daughter had written.
Entitled “A Thinking Christmas”, it is a touching and childlike depiction of how some children are lucky enough to receive gifts, while others less fortunate do not. But what is likely to linger long in the family’s mind are the poem’s first two lines, which, through murder and grief, have gained an unintended resonance:
“Your fire is nice and warm, Just think — A little girl cold, wet and in the storm . . . ”
Additional reporting: Melanie Legg, Paul Lamarra, Mark Macaskill and Jason Allardyce
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As Jodi’s body was removed by ambulance, Mitchell is said to have sat coolly texting on his mobile.
Text message from Corrine to Luke Mitchell - 1st July 12.29am
"You will tell me right now what is wrong. I'm on my way up to find you."
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The problems appeared to have started after the father left to start a new home in Livingston.
"Born in July 1988, his parents Corinne and Philip split up when he was 11. He grew up under the care of his mother and she allowed him to do exactly as he pleased. He lived in a state of near squalor; keeping his own urine in bottles in his bedroom, rarely washing and wearing the same clothes for days on end.
Left largely to his own devices he became defiant, violent and brooding with an unhealthy fascination with knives, the occult and drugs. He was first brought to the attention of the mental health profession aged just 11, following a fight at King’s Park Primary in Dalkeith. Although the incident was just a minor skirmish with another pupil, Mitchell’s attitude was sufficiently troublesome to warrant a referral to a school psychiatrist. However, there appears to have been little further action taken by the education authorities or his parents to curb his behaviour."
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
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Born in July 1988, his parents Corinne and Philip split up when he was 11. He grew up under the care of his mother and she allowed him to do exactly as he pleased. He lived in a state of near squalor; keeping his own urine in bottles in his bedroom, rarely washing and wearing the same clothes for days on end.
Left largely to his own devices he became defiant, violent and brooding with an unhealthy fascination with knives, the occult and drugs. He was first brought to the attention of the mental health profession aged just 11, following a fight at King’s Park Primary in Dalkeith. Although the incident was just a minor skirmish with another pupil, Mitchell’s attitude was sufficiently troublesome to warrant a referral to a school psychiatrist. However, there appears to have been little further action taken by the education authorities or his parents to curb his behaviour.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
1/2 a Mars bar according to Sandra Lean - omitting the warning signs re the numerous knife incidents
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The problems appeared to have started after the father left to start a new home in Livingston.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
Does anyone know what kind of relationship Corrine and Philip had and why they split?
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Born in July 1988, his parents Corinne and Philip split up when he was 11. He grew up under the care of his mother and she allowed him to do exactly as he pleased. He lived in a state of near squalor; keeping his own urine in bottles in his bedroom, rarely washing and wearing the same clothes for days on end.
Left largely to his own devices he became defiant, violent and brooding with an unhealthy fascination with knives, the occult and drugs. He was first brought to the attention of the mental health profession aged just 11, following a fight at King’s Park Primary in Dalkeith. Although the incident was just a minor skirmish with another pupil, Mitchell’s attitude was sufficiently troublesome to warrant a referral to a school psychiatrist. However, there appears to have been little further action taken by the education authorities or his parents to curb his behaviour.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
Where would we be in this case without unsourced news articles?
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Mitchell often harmed himself. Once he scored the satanic number 666 into his arm “for a dare”. A former classmate, Michelle Tierney, later told police Mitchell had stubbed a cigarette out on his hand in front of her. He had then told her he had imagined getting stoned and killing someone. It would be “funny”, he said.
🚩 could be another ‘stage 4’ indicator when placed on the intimate partner femicide timeline
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Where would we be in this case without unsourced news articles?
Which parts of this article are incorrect?
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Which parts of this article are incorrect?
Is that what they meant ?
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Is that what they meant ?
Faithlilly refuses to accept the verscity of any newspaper reports pertaining to Luk Mitchell’s background, it’s what conspiracy theorists do when evidence is presented that runs contra to their beliefs - they rubbish the source of the evidence, no matter what it is. You could claim first hand knowledge and you would be called a liar. You could provide verbatim quotes and these would be dismissed as inaccurate or lies that someone had been paid to tell.
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Faithlilly refuses to accept the verscity of any newspaper reports pertaining to Luk Mitchell’s background, it’s what conspiracy theorists do when evidence is presented that runs contra to their beliefs - they rubbish the source of the evidence, no matter what it is. You could claim first hand knowledge and you would be called a liar. You could provide verbatim quotes and these would be dismissed as inaccurate or lies that someone had been paid to tell.
Suspect Sandra Lean’s target audience is the Faithlilly type
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Suspect Sandra Lean’s target audience is the Faithlilly type
Her target audience is anyone who doesn’t know much about the case and who is content to simply take her word for it unquestioningly. It’s irresponsible TV and Channel 5 should be ashamed of themselves.
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Suspect Sandra Lean’s target audience is the Faithlilly type
She has a knowledge of the case second to none and the only one here to have access to all the paperwork generated from the case so I’ll take that as a compliment.
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Her target audience is anyone who doesn’t know much about the case and who is content to simply take her word for it unquestioningly. It’s irresponsible TV and Channel 5 should be ashamed of themselves.
I agree
Promoting Luke Mitchell’s innocence fraud won’t overturn his murder conviction
And a petition won’t make any difference - look at Bamber’s
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She has a knowledge of the case second to none
What like SK following Jodi on the path *&^^&
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10768.msg642470#msg642470
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and the only one here to have access to all the paperwork generated from the case
Do you know everyone here and of what they do or don’t have?
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Her target audience is anyone who doesn’t know much about the case and who is content to simply take her word for it unquestioningly. It’s irresponsible TV and Channel 5 should be ashamed of themselves.
Yes a bunch of mugs who are being taken for a ride.
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She has a knowledge of the case second to none and the only one here to have access to all the paperwork generated from the case so I’ll take that as a compliment.
It didn't do her much good last time, the SCCRC saw right through it. Massive fail yet again!
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I agree
Promoting Luke Mitchell’s innocence fraud won’t overturn his murder conviction
And a petition won’t make any difference - look at Bamber’s
Agreed a petition won’t make any difference. Whether Luke’s conviction will eventually be quashed remains to be seen.
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It didn't do her much good last time, the SCCRC saw right through it. Massive fail yet again!
Donald Finlay, one of Scotland’s foremost barristers, didn’t manage to convince the jury that Luke was innocent. Does that lessen his skill as a barrister...of course not.
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As Jodi’s body was removed by ambulance, Mitchell is said to have sat coolly texting on his mobile.
Text message from Corrine to Luke Mitchell - 1st July 12.29am
"You will tell me right now what is wrong. I'm on my way up to find you."
of note is fact that this above was the only text message recoverable from lukes phone when it was taken from him.
despite him obviously actively using his phone all evening. i know phones were different back then but typically they still held minimum 10 messages in memory - why were all the others gone?
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Donald Finlay, one of Scotland’s foremost barristers, didn’t manage to convince the jury that Luke was innocent. Does that lessen his skill as a barrister...of course not.
He knew not to put Mitchell on the stand though in case he called the judge a f..king retard too.
"QC Donald Findlay had tried to convince the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh that Mitchell, then 15, was "grilled" by bullying detectives.
The original trial jury heard extracts of the police interview. The schoolboy answered back, calling one officer "a f****** retard."
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Agreed a petition won’t make any difference. Whether Luke’s conviction will eventually be quashed remains to be seen.
No amount of manipulation of the case files by people like Sandra Lean will ever see Luke Mitchell’s murder conviction overturned - plus he’s too dangerous to be released anytime soon and there’s a channel 5 documentary to support that now
’Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance’🌻
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He really is a nasty piece of work, violent murdererer or no.
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In my opinion there is just far too much going on in this case which could in any way point to an innocent Luke Mitchell. Had he really been the poor innocent teenager as portrayed by some then there wouldn't be all this circumstantial evidence, failed alibis and genuine sightings of him. No wonder the SSCRC saw through this sham campaign.
And now Sandra Lean is raising money on GoFundMe on the basis of a lie?
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He knew not to put Mitchell on the stand though in case he called the judge a f..king retard too.
"QC Donald Findlay had tried to convince the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh that Mitchell, then 15, was "grilled" by bullying detectives.
The original trial jury heard extracts of the police interview. The schoolboy answered back, calling one officer "a f****** retard."
(ty6e[ do you not think that the way in which the interview was conducted that it kind of goaded him in to acting that way?
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In my opinion there is just far too much going on in this case which could in any way point to an innocent Luke Mitchell. Had he really been the poor innocent teenager as portrayed by some then there wouldn't be all this circumstantial evidence, failed alibis and genuine sightings of him. No wonder the SSCRC saw through this sham campaign.
And now Sandra Lean is raising money on GoFundMe on the basis of a lie?
Suspect she’s attempting to emulate the US innocence fraud model @)(++(*
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He knew not to put Mitchell on the stand though in case he called the judge a f..king retard too.
"QC Donald Findlay had tried to convince the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh that Mitchell, then 15, was "grilled" by bullying detectives.
The original trial jury heard extracts of the police interview. The schoolboy answered back, calling one officer "a f****** retard."
So a ‘massive fail’ by a top QC too?
I’m surprised that Luke calling the officer a ‘f*cking retard’ bothers you more than this from Luke’s 2008 appeal.
‘ At times the nature of the questioning was such that the questioner did not seem to be seriously interested in a response from the appellant but rather endeavouring to break him down into giving some hoped-for confession by his overbearing and hostile interrogation. Such conduct, particularly where the interviewee was a 15 year old youth, can only be deplored.’
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(ty6e[ do you not think that the way in which the interview was conducted that it kind of goaded him in to acting that way?
Absolutely 8((()*/
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He knew not to put Mitchell on the stand though in case he called the judge a f..king retard too.
"QC Donald Findlay had tried to convince the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh that Mitchell, then 15, was "grilled" by bullying detectives.
The original trial jury heard extracts of the police interview. The schoolboy answered back, calling one officer "a f****** retard."
Corrine Mitchell (May 2010)
‘with regard to the sky interview.......it was never meant to happen! As at that time we had no experience of the press or media and were "tricked" into that interview
as for "toying with the police"......Luke was 14years old.......I am not entirely sure a 14year old would have the guts....or sense to "toy with the police" and I can assure you he wasn't.
sorry, missed a question!
It would be unlikely Jodi would have disturbed someone walking down the path as it was quite well used by dog walkers and joggers!
However, if she was going behind the wall to say meet [Name removed] to get some cannabis before meeting Luke she may well have disturbed someone.
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Corrine Mitchell (May 2010)
‘with regard to the sky interview.......it was never meant to happen! As at that time we had no experience of the press or media and were "tricked" into that interview
as for "toying with the police"......Luke was 14years old.......I am not entirely sure a 14year old would have the guts....or sense to "toy with the police" and I can assure you he wasn't.
sorry, missed a question!
It would be unlikely Jodi would have disturbed someone walking down the path as it was quite well used by dog walkers and joggers!
However, if she was going behind the wall to say meet [Name removed] to get some cannabis before meeting Luke she may well have disturbed someone.
What was it Corinne called James Matthews in the Ch5 documentary? An entire camera crew walks into your house and you don't realise that they're going to interview your son...come on pull the other one!
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Luke Mitchell told police in his 22 page statement that he got his "short fuse" from his mother.
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Luke Mitchell told police in his 22 page statement that he got his "short fuse" from his mother.
8((()*/ @)(++(*
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Sandra will continuously downplay Luke's nature, but how many 14 year old kids have already had involvement with several psychiatrists?
She also tried to downplay the Satanism interest and was left with egg on her face when he repaid her efforts by demanding Satanism textbooks be provided to him by Shotts Prison as his "religious right." This was an adult Mitchell in his late 20's, still not grown out of his Satanism "phase."
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What was it Corinne called James Matthews in the Ch5 documentary? An entire camera crew walks into your house and you don't realise that they're going to interview your son...come on pull the other one!
I couldn’t make out what she called James Matthews but Mitchell appeared fine to me being filmed near the candle display on the table
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Sandra will continuously downplay Luke's nature, but how many 14 year old kids have already had involvement with several psychiatrists?
How many 12 year old boys do you know show signs of “sexual aggression’ and hold knives to young girls throats for a kiss?
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Sandra will continuously downplay Luke's nature, but how many 14 year old kids have already had involvement with several psychiatrists?
She also tried to downplay the Satanism interest and was left with egg on her face when he repaid her efforts by demanding Satanism textbooks be provided to him by Shotts Prison as his "religious right." This was an adult Mitchell in his late 20's, still not grown out of his Satanism "phase."
You really don’t know how the press work do you?
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Luke Mitchell told police in his 22 page statement that he got his "short fuse" from his mother.
my mum says I get mine from my grandad, havent murdered anyone because of it
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The problems appeared to have started after the father left to start a new home in Livingston.
"Born in July 1988, his parents Corinne and Philip split up when he was 11. He grew up under the care of his mother and she allowed him to do exactly as he pleased. He lived in a state of near squalor; keeping his own urine in bottles in his bedroom, rarely washing and wearing the same clothes for days on end.
Left largely to his own devices he became defiant, violent and brooding with an unhealthy fascination with knives, the occult and drugs. He was first brought to the attention of the mental health profession aged just 11, following a fight at King’s Park Primary in Dalkeith. Although the incident was just a minor skirmish with another pupil, Mitchell’s attitude was sufficiently troublesome to warrant a referral to a school psychiatrist. However, there appears to have been little further action taken by the education authorities or his parents to curb his behaviour."
http://www.scotsman.com/news/natural-born-killer-1-1401861
It would be interesting to know how he was getting on at school when aged 14, ie, whether he was then seeing an educational psychologist/receiving extra help/in contact with mental health services/social services, etc. Does anyone know?
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It would be interesting to know how he was getting on at school when aged 14, ie, whether he was then seeing an educational psychologist/receiving extra help/in contact with mental health services/social services, etc. Does anyone know?
Mitchell refused to see anyone
And there appears to have been no encouragement from his mother Corrine either to address these apparent ‘warning signs’
Maybe she was concerned it would call into question her parenting skills?
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my mum says I get mine from my grandad, havent murdered anyone because of it
These traits can sometimes skip a generation apparently
Some choose to murder some don’t
Prof James Fallen’s work on murderers might be of interest
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A very warm welcome to all the new members who have joined up in the last few days.
When any topic receives national exposure this forum inevitably sees a sudden rise in new membership. Although welcome in the most part, it brings with it the usual disputes and aggressions.
This is an established justice forum which prides itself on being non partisan and in allowing views from all shades of opinion to be heard. The overriding requisite however in all discussions is mutual respect.
We have already removed one member today for constantly breaching the rules so please, consider carefully what you post and review your comments before pushing that post button.
Happy Posting. Admin
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Her target audience is anyone who doesn’t know much about the case and who is content to simply take her word for it unquestioningly.
It isn’t
John knows a great deal about [Name removed]’s murder investigation
A little bit on how secure evidence is with lawyers. I handed over some very crucial original documents to my lawyers and they managed to lose them. Subsequently we had to use photocopies in court which went against us. When I complained, each lawyer firm blamed the other for the loss.
encouraging the prejudices of their target audience
What are John’s prejudices of the Scottish CJS?
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Here is the article from the Daily Mail dated 22nd January 2005. The story broke the previous evening.
Byline: GRACE MCLEAN
A TEENAGER last night told how killer Luke Mitchell held a knife to her throat just a month before he killed and mutilated girlfriend Jodi Jones.
Mitchell, then only 14 years old, pulled on a balaclava, grabbed Kara van Nuil from behind and warned her not to move as he pressed the blade to her neck.
Last night she said: 'I was absolutely terrified. He was so strong. I didn't hear him coming. He just came up behind me, grabbed me around the neck with one arm and held the knife with the other.
'He told me: "Move and you are f***ing dead".' Miss van Nuil, now 17, met Mitchell at the Army Cadet HQ in Bonnyrigg, Midlothian, when she joined his cadet unit in February, 2002.
They started dating a few weeks later, even though Mitchell was already going out with Jodi and seeing another girl, Kimberley Thomson, in Perthshire.
Miss van Nuil told how she was at first mesmerised by Mitchell and how he wooed her with romantic text messages.
But she brought the relationship to an end after he followed her into the cadet hut one night and threatened her with the knife. She told the Scottish Daily Mail: 'He used to wear a balaclava and pull it up over his head like a hat.
'We were at cadets in May when I went into the hut on my own. The instructors were out having a cigarette with the other cadets. I was messing about with the blackboard and I didn't hear Luke coming but there was suddenly an arm around my neck.
'I got a glimpse of him as I looked back and he had pulled his balaclava over his face. He then put a knife to my throat and said I would be dead if I moved an inch.
'I was really scared and couldn't move.
He was so strong. I couldn't move my arms but I kept nipping his knees with my fingernails and begging him to let me go. He kept me like that for about a minute.
'When he put the knife down I turned to face him and he said, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." He tried to pretend it was a joke but my neck was red and I was genuinely scared. I was crying my eyes out.' Mitchell never returned to cadets after the attack. A month later he strangled 14-year- old Jodi and cut her throat.
Miss van Nuil regrets not telling her parents Angela, 39, and Bill, 55, about the attack until after the murder.
She said: 'I never knew Jodi but when I found out Luke was her boyfriend I knew straight away that he had done it. I told my dad what happened in the cadet hut and he called the police.
'They came around and took hours of statements but I was never called to court.
'I'm so relieved - I couldn't have faced him in the court. I'm so sorry for what happened to Jodi. When it first happened, I used to feel such guilt and think "that could have been me".' Miss van Nuil, of Gorebridge, Midlothian, said: 'We never met anywhere but cadets, so I only saw him on Monday and Wednesday nights - I suppose because he was going out with Jodi.
'One of my friends said he had five girls on the go but I didn't care because I was crazy about him. He was so polite. I suspected he might have been a bit of a geek. But he always sent me lovely text messages.' But Miss van Nuil said she also saw flashes of his temper: 'One time he was on the shooting range and got told off by one of the instructors. All of a sudden he shouted something, threw down his gun and stormed off.
'There were other times, too. If someone so much as criticised him, he would lose his temper and shout and swear at them.' After the knife attack, she dumped Mitchell. But two days after he was first questioned about Jodi's murder, Miss van Nuil saw him walking down her street. She said: 'I was looking out the window. He was parading around like a cockerel. His friends all came out and started hugging him as if he was a hero.
'I was terrified. I hid behind the curtain, shaking, and hoped he would not see me.' Last night Miss Van Nuil broke down in tears on hearing the verdict.
'I'm just so happy,' she said. 'It's been a long wait and now it's all over.
I feel that I can finally rest easy.' Her mother, Angela, added: 'We're relieved that justice has been done for Jodi and pleased because we knew all along that he had done this.' It has emerged that at least one other girl also suffered a terrifying ordeal at Mitchell's hands.
The girl, who was just 11 at the time, was visiting Mitchell's father Philip, a family friend.
Mitchell, who was only 12, was also staying in the house in Livingston and the two youngsters were sharing a twin bedroom.
In the middle of the night, he climbed on top of her, held a knife to her throat and demanded she kiss him. Last night she said: 'I just can't tell you how I feel about the verdict.'
g.mclean@dailymail.co.uk
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-127809847.html
Did Corinne Mitchell also buy her killer son the balaclava ?
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Who else from the army cadets gave witness statements about sadistic psycho killer Luke Mitchell?
Kara Van Null
Matthew Muraska
and who else?