UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on February 21, 2016, 10:30:23 PM

Title: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 21, 2016, 10:30:23 PM
I genuinely don't know the answer.

As far as I'm aware no one observed June with a black eye on 6th Aug.  AE's WS states the following:

"On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, "I hit a post".

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

CAL page 206:

"...whilst the severe bruising to her left eye was caused either by a blow or the impact of gunshot".

CAL page 192:

"Nevill had other injuries besides gunshot wounds.  The severe bruising to his eyes and a laceration to the right side of his nose were due to a blow from a fist or blunt object".

Is this the norm from a pathologist ie no firm idea about victims' injuries including the burn marks to NB's back?

Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Myster on February 22, 2016, 08:57:31 AM
It's true, June did hit a post... the one that was cunningly disguised as a rifle butt when Jerry was carelessly waving it about above his head in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 29, 2016, 03:49:22 PM
Did Jeremy give her the black eye during the course of the murders such as when she got out of bed and approached him or did she really just get it innocently prior?  We have no way to know. Clearly he would not lie to protect someone else giving her the black eye during the murders. I tend to think it happened during the murders but who knows...

Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on March 01, 2016, 03:16:25 PM
Did Jeremy give her the black eye during the course of the murders such as when she got out of bed and approached him or did she really just get it innocently prior?  We have no way to know. Clearly he would not lie to protect someone else giving her the black eye during the murders. I tend to think it happened during the murders but who knows...

Me too and the likes of BW and Jean B made no mention of it and it is surely something you would notice.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on March 01, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Did Jeremy give her the black eye during the course of the murders such as when she got out of bed and approached him or did she really just get it innocently prior?  We have no way to know. Clearly he would not lie to protect someone else giving her the black eye during the murders. I tend to think it happened during the murders but who knows...

I think its more likely the 'black eye' was caused by gsw. 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on March 01, 2016, 04:01:04 PM
Did Jeremy give her the black eye during the course of the murders such as when she got out of bed and approached him or did she really just get it innocently prior?  We have no way to know. Clearly he would not lie to protect someone else giving her the black eye during the murders. I tend to think it happened during the murders but who knows...

Me too and the likes of BW and Jean B made no mention of it and it is surely something you would notice.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on March 02, 2016, 04:06:10 AM
I think its more likely the 'black eye' was caused by gsw.

From the position where she fell it is doubtful she got it while falling.  If she got the black eye during the course of the murders it was from either being punched by the killer or the killer struck her in the face with the weapon.

The killer was at the foot of the bed. Once she got out of bed she was in the killer's way.  She either approached the killer or simply blocked the path.  The severe  injury to her head could have made her be almost robotic or in a trance and thus to have no fear in going to her killer. She also could simply have been in the way being unsure what to do stammering around. Mind you some people with all their faculties will try to disarm an attacker also.

Maybe she did walk into a pole but it sounds fishy that such would occur so close to the murders and that such would result in a black eye. Usually your forehead bears the brunt in such.  While playing on a stoop I got pushed into a porch post. My forehead had a nasty mark ala Frankenstein, it would have needed something projecting from it in order to hurt my eye but didn't because it was just an ordinary post. 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 11, 2017, 11:56:50 PM
From the position where she fell it is doubtful she got it while falling.  If she got the black eye during the course of the murders it was from either being punched by the killer or the killer struck her in the face with the weapon.

The killer was at the foot of the bed. Once she got out of bed she was in the killer's way.  She either approached the killer or simply blocked the path.  The severe  injury to her head could have made her be almost robotic or in a trance and thus to have no fear in going to her killer. She also could simply have been in the way being unsure what to do stammering around. Mind you some people with all their faculties will try to disarm an attacker also.

Maybe she did walk into a pole but it sounds fishy that such would occur so close to the murders and that such would result in a black eye. Usually your forehead bears the brunt in such.  While playing on a stoop I got pushed into a porch post. My forehead had a nasty mark ala Frankenstein, it would have needed something projecting from it in order to hurt my eye but didn't because it was just an ordinary post.

According to Dr Vanezis trial testimony it was caused by gunshot.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 11, 2017, 11:59:00 PM
I genuinely don't know the answer.

As far as I'm aware no one observed June with a black eye on 6th Aug.  AE's WS states the following:

"On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, "I hit a post".

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

CAL page 206:

"...whilst the severe bruising to her left eye was caused either by a blow or the impact of gunshot".

CAL page 192:

"Nevill had other injuries besides gunshot wounds.  The severe bruising to his eyes and a laceration to the right side of his nose were due to a blow from a fist or blunt object".

Is this the norm from a pathologist ie no firm idea about victims' injuries including the burn marks to NB's back?

Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 12, 2017, 02:22:37 AM


That doesn't preclude it from having existed prior or preclude it from being caused by her being struck. Nor does it  preclude her from having been struck- people don't always get black eyes when struck and knocked down. I have been in numerous fights and despite being struck in the face never got a black eye. He was guessing it was caused by the shot since that happens sometimes. Often it will happen with a shot like she suffered to the side of the head (the eye on the side of the shot) but it depends on numerous variables including but not limited to the power of the bullet.  His guess could be wrong, she could have been hit.  He could be right and she still could have been hit.

 
Unless June got our of bed after Jeremy left she would have been blocking his exit.  He would have to do something to get past her be it shove her out of the way or something even more forceful. She may have done more than just block him she may have confronted him.     
 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: adam on February 12, 2017, 08:35:53 AM
Nevill had two black eyes. Bit of coincidence that June had one as well.

June hit a post. I don't think so. 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 12, 2017, 12:59:58 PM
Surely bruising associated with a black eye takes a while to develop?  If she had hit a post the previous day Barbara Wilson would have known about it.  Had she been hit by Sheila prior to her death the blackening could not have developed imo.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 12, 2017, 02:35:11 PM
Nevill had two black eyes. Bit of coincidence that June had one as well.

June hit a post. I don't think so.

According to Dr Vanezis NB's black eyes were caused by blows and June's by gsw's.  Which maybe makes sense if you consider June sustained a gsw above the bridge of her nose/between the eyes. 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 12, 2017, 03:11:11 PM
Surely bruising associated with a black eye takes a while to develop?  If she had hit a post the previous day Barbara Wilson would have known about it.  Had she been hit by Sheila prior to her death the blackening could not have developed imo.

Sounds about right.

I am just catching up with this as it was brought to my attention by a work colleague who was discussing this case.

Are we thinking that The daughter was doing a  Lizzie Borden?
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 12, 2017, 03:18:19 PM
Sounds about right.

I am just catching up with this as it was brought to my attention by a work colleague who was discussing this case.

Are we thinking that The daughter was doing a  Lizzie Borden?

Sheila was an innocent victim of a ruthless killer.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 12, 2017, 03:58:00 PM
Sheila was an innocent victim of a ruthless killer.

Yes , I was thinking that the ruthless killer was blaming his sister as some Lizzie Borden figure.

His behaviour is bizarre, am I to understand he cooked 'full English' as police arrived to speak to him about the killings?  This certainly looks like it was someone who knew this family who commited this henious crime.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 12, 2017, 05:21:32 PM
Yes , I was thinking that the ruthless killer was blaming his sister as some Lizzie Borden figure.

His behaviour is bizarre, am I to understand he cooked 'full English' as police arrived to speak to him about the killings?  This certainly looks like it was someone who knew this family who commited this henious crime.

I think this is a case where the truth will be found by analysing the significant quantity of physical evidence at soc not the behaviour of others.  It is now evident from expert witness trial testimony that by today's standards it was lacking.  Science and technology move on along with the quality of expert evidence.   
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 12, 2017, 05:41:57 PM
am I to understand he cooked 'full English' as police arrived to speak to him about the killings?

I have no idea what that means. I have heard a lot of British vernacular but this is new.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 12, 2017, 06:10:20 PM
I think this is a case where the truth will be found by analysing the significant quantity of physical evidence at soc not the behaviour of others.  It is now evident from expert witness trial testimony that by today's standards it was lacking.  Science and technology move on along with the quality of expert evidence.

The truth was found, using modern science he would have been even more screwed the blood they removed would have been DNA tested to prove it was sheilas and would have taken away his claim at trial that it was a mixture of June and Nevill instead of Sheila's.  Furthermore they would have realized before trial instead of after that he stuck the Bible in a pool of blood that formed after her death and would have done a better job of explaining how the parents were attacked in the bedroom as the initial event further dashing his claims of receiving a distress call.

At one point he suggested that Sheila forced Nevill to make the call to lure him there. He said he feared that is what happened.  It could very well be he hoped police would think that.  That's actually MORE logical than Nevill deciding to summon him on his own volition.  But it would not be consistent with her simply going into a crazy rage that requires a lot of thought on her part.


His best bet would have been to leave Sheila sleeping alive. Call police saying Nevill called to say she was  shooting everyone and screaming that her kids and parents were holding her back from becoming a super model. If taken alive the police would think she did it not consider that Jeremy did it and snuck out.  The suicide detracted from things that is not characteristic while the attacks under the delusion they were holding her back could be.


As the killer she would not be able to inherit so he would get everything anyway. Of course she would say she didn't do it but it would be hard to get police to believe her. The suicide not only didn't fit any known paradigms it is what ruined things most of all given her blood in the moderator. With her not dead, her blood would not have been inside it. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 12, 2017, 06:15:58 PM
I have no idea what that means. I have heard a lot of British vernacular but this is new.

Full English = a full English breakfast.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: John on February 12, 2017, 06:28:44 PM
Full English = a full English breakfast.

Hmm...yes.  Mummy, daddy, little sis and my two child nephews lie bloodied and slain in their home a short distance away but some sausages, egg and a bit of bacon will go down nicely.  Anyone for black pud?
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 12, 2017, 06:40:01 PM
The truth was found, using modern science he would have been even more screwed the blood they removed would have been DNA tested to prove it was sheilas and would have taken away his claim at trial that it was a mixture of June and Nevill instead of Sheila's.  Furthermore they would have realized before trial instead of after that he stuck the Bible in a pool of blood that formed after her death and would have done a better job of explaining how the parents were attacked in the bedroom as the initial event further dashing his claims of receiving a distress call.

At one point he suggested that Sheila forced Nevill to make the call to lure him there. He said he feared that is what happened.  It could very well be he hoped police would think that.  That's actually MORE logical than Nevill deciding to summon him on his own volition.  But it would not be consistent with her simply going into a crazy rage that requires a lot of thought on her part.


His best bet would have been to leave Sheila sleeping alive. Call police saying Nevill called to say she was  shooting everyone and screaming that her kids and parents were holding her back from becoming a super model. If taken alive the police would think she did it not consider that Jeremy did it and snuck out.  The suicide detracted from things that is not characteristic while the attacks under the delusion they were holding her back could be.


As the killer she would not be able to inherit so he would get everything anyway. Of course she would say she didn't do it but it would be hard to get police to believe her. The suicide not only didn't fit any known paradigms it is what ruined things most of all given her blood in the moderator. With her not dead, her blood would not have been inside it. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

You mean the so-called ballistics expert who took to the stand and told the court part of his relevant experience involved a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy!?  8)-)))

I've read MF's trial testimony once but only quickly.  Thereafter I've referred back to various points.  But I can't once recall reading the word trajectory.  By today's standards it is woeful.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 12, 2017, 06:43:34 PM
Full English = a full English breakfast.

Thanks that helps a lot!
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 12, 2017, 07:11:46 PM
You mean the so-called ballistics expert who took to the stand and told the court part of his relevant experience involved a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy!?  8)-)))

I've read MF's trial testimony once but only quickly.  Thereafter I've referred back to various points.  But I can't once recall reading the word trajectory.  By today's standards it is woeful.

Vanezis spoke to the trajectory of the wounds. He was the one who examined the bodies so in a position to do so.

Fletcher wasn't a reconstruction expert he was an expert in guns and bullets.  His job was to examine the bullets. SOME ballistic experts are cross trained in reconstruction particularly today.  In the past it was much more narrow.   But we still have experts with narrow fields and sometimes see 20 experts in a case it just depends.

Could they have found someone to help talk about the trajectory such as how Nevill was seated when shot in the face?  Yes.  Why didn't they? Either they didn't think of it or didn't think it was important to bother. They could have felt the evidence was sufficient and that such would not be necessary.  I would have played up more how the call made no sense and was contradicted by the evidence of how things went down but they didn't either because they didn't realize it or didn't look hard enough for an expert to help them. When people think they have enough evidence they don't go out and get more experts. Granted we know more today than then but it was not the stone ages they had the expertise at the time if they looked hard enough for the right experts. Necessity is the mother of invention. They got the conviction without it so didn't have the necessity. 

Fletcher's main purpose was to confirm the Anschutz fired all the bullets (prove it was the murder weapon) and to confirm sheila had been killed with the moderator.  That's his only real role in obtaining the conviction. 

You are comparing the modern era where a ballistic expert will go to the scene and look at the scene and victims and help with the crime reconstruction with an older era where they examined bullets and weapons in a lab simply. Using modern techniques Jeremy would have been even worse off not better. The less sophisticated an investigation is the easier for something like he planned to work. The blood in the moderator illustrates that pretty well. The police left what turned out to be crucial evidence. The rime scene police did not take all the, bullets, firearms and firearms accessories.  That is where there should be criticism. That seems indefensible. They thought the killer was dead so didn't do what they should have.

 

Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 26, 2017, 12:17:15 PM
I see Mike Tesko is claiming JB told him June had a black eye on the 6th Aug.  Yet JB failed to mention this in his WS of 7th Aug.  It seems Caroline asked JB about June's black eye and JB said June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.   

Dr Vanezis said June's black eye was caused by gunshot - see attached.

At best someone is mistaken at worst someone is lying:

AE - who said JB told her June had a black eye on 6th Aug

"On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, "I hit a post.

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

JB - no mention of June sustaining a black eye in any of his WS's or interviews.  And according to Caroline JB told her June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.

Mike - claims JB told him June had a black eye on 6th Aug.

So AE and Mike agree JB said June had a black eye on 6th Aug.   &%+((£
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Myster on February 26, 2017, 12:40:06 PM
So AE and Mike agree JB said June had a black eye on 6th Aug.   &%+((£

No they don't!   Tesko's black eye is more complex than that.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 26, 2017, 02:15:36 PM
I see Mike Tesko is claiming JB told him June had a black eye on the 6th Aug.  Yet JB failed to mention this in his WS of 7th Aug.  It seems Caroline asked JB about June's black eye and JB said June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.   

Dr Vanezis said June's black eye was caused by gunshot - see attached.

At best someone is mistaken at worst someone is lying:

AE - who said JB told her June had a black eye on 6th Aug

"On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, "I hit a post.

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

JB - no mention of June sustaining a black eye in any of his WS's or interviews.  And according to Caroline JB told her June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.

Mike - claims JB told him June had a black eye on 6th Aug.

So AE and Mike agree JB said June had a black eye on 6th Aug.   &%+((£

His actual words were 'I don't believe mum had a back eye'. As far as I am concerned, it's clear he lied. Two people (or more) heard him state that June had a black eye, she did indeed have a black eye and although Jeremy was supposed to be suspicious in respect to how June received it, we're supposed to believe that he chose not to pursue that matter? Rubbish! It's not something he would forget about either (as someone suggested on the blue forum). He lied about it - his reason? God knows but he does himself no favours.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 26, 2017, 03:21:18 PM
His actual words were 'I don't believe mum had a back eye'. As far as I am concerned, it's clear he lied. Two people (or more) heard him state that June had a black eye, she did indeed have a black eye and although Jeremy was supposed to be suspicious in respect to how June received it, we're supposed to believe that he chose not to pursue that matter? Rubbish! It's not something he would forget about either (as someone suggested on the blue forum). He lied about it - his reason? God knows but he does himself no favours.


If June got out of bed before Jeremy left the room then Jeremy clearly had to get past his mom to get out of the room. She could have actively physically confronted him or simply have been in his way.  Either way he likely struck her.  If this did occur then no wonder he lied about her having the black eye prior.

It doesn't matter if the bullet actually caused the black eye or not.  Upon hearing shortly after the murders that she had a black eye his perception at the time would be that he caused it when he struck her.  To try to conceal that there was an altercation with her he would make up that she had a black eye prior.

Since no one ever figured out there was an altercation with June he had no need to continue with such lie and probably forgot he even told it back in the day.  Liars are very bad at remembering the lie they told last let alone lies they told years earlier.

The reverse is far less likely but still theoretically possible. He could have been telling the truth about her having a black eye prior but subsequently decided to lie and say she didn't to provide more fodder for the conspiracy theorists who support him.   
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 26, 2017, 03:53:55 PM

If June got out of bed before Jeremy left the room then Jeremy clearly had to get past his mom to get out of the room. She could have actively physically confronted him or simply have been in his way.  Either way he likely struck her.  If this did occur then no wonder he lied about her having the black eye prior.

It doesn't matter if the bullet actually caused the black eye or not.  Upon hearing shortly after the murders that she had a black eye his perception at the time would be that he caused it when he struck her.  To try to conceal that there was an altercation with her he would make up that she had a black eye prior.

Since no one ever figured out there was an altercation with June he had no need to continue with such lie and probably forgot he even told it back in the day.  Liars are very bad at remembering the lie they told last let alone lies they told years earlier.

The reverse is far less likely but still theoretically possible. He could have been telling the truth about her having a black eye prior but subsequently decided to lie and say she didn't to provide more fodder for the conspiracy theorists who support him.   

It could also be that he realised that he was the only one who saw it, which limits the time it could have occurred.  Had it been only AE who mentioned it in her WS he could have passed it off as 'Ann making it up'. However, now Mike has told the same story, it adds weight to Ann statement. But him telling me that he didn't believe she had a black eye makes it all the more suspicious.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 26, 2017, 04:45:02 PM
It could also be that he realised that he was the only one who saw it, which limits the time it could have occurred.  Had it been only AE who mentioned it in her WS he could have passed it off as 'Ann making it up'. However, now Mike has told the same story, it adds weight to Ann statement. But him telling me that he didn't believe she had a black eye makes it all the more suspicious.

He lied to the family on a number of occasions. I see it as more likely he lied to AE about the blackeye predating the murders than he decided to be honest with AE about the black eye predating the murders and later decided to lie by saying it didn't.


Mike is a bigger liar than Jeremy so is useless.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 27, 2017, 05:48:33 PM
Mike Tesko's claims re June's black eye:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8186.msg388050.html#msg388050

The bottom line is that June Bamber did have a black eye complex, that Jeremy said his mum had the black eye at the supper table, that on the following morning whilst DC Clark was taking Jeremy's witness statement that Jeremy told Clark his mum had got a black eye at that stage! Ann Eaton overheard Jeremy telling DC Clark this, and it was included in the original handwritten statement! There was no evidence given by the pathologist to show that the black eye complex had been caused during the shooting attack upon her just before her death, and cops edited any reference to June having already had the black eye complex at the supper table on the previous evening! The fact that she had got such a black eye beforehand was potentially beneficial to the defence case, and harmful to the prosevutions case! The answer which June gave to Jeremy that she had walked into a post, was another way of saying, mind your own business! It is rather telling that when one of the farm staff called by telephone that last evening and spoke to Neville Bamber that she reported that Neville was rather abrupt to her and that she got the impression that she might have interrupted an argument! This fits in with Jeremy returning to the farmhouse at supper time to find his parents sat around the table in the kitchen telling Sheila that she needed help to bring up the children! It should be obvious that Neville would have known that June had got the black eye and how she had got it! If Neville knew, there's a good chance June's sister Pamela Boutflour also was told about it! June wouldn't be making arrangements to go to her sisters on the following afternoon for tea and be bringing along Sheila and her two grandchildren if she had got a black eye without telling her sister first! I believe cops received information from the relatives about the black eye complex of June Bamber, how she got it, and whom by! It must have been Sheila who had hit her, and that's why that part of Jeremy's statement where he mentions it was edited out of the typed composite version created in his name by the cops!

FAO Mike  You are a complete moron.  You lack the intelligence, emotional and intellectual, to sit down quietly with documents and draw sensible conclusions even when it is is crystal clear - see attached.  Your hatred of the police prevents you assisting JB.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 27, 2017, 07:55:51 PM
Mike Tesko's claims re June's black eye:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8186.msg388050.html#msg388050

The bottom line is that June Bamber did have a black eye complex, that Jeremy said his mum had the black eye at the supper table, that on the following morning whilst DC Clark was taking Jeremy's witness statement that Jeremy told Clark his mum had got a black eye at that stage! Ann Eaton overheard Jeremy telling DC Clark this, and it was included in the original handwritten statement! There was no evidence given by the pathologist to show that the black eye complex had been caused during the shooting attack upon her just before her death, and cops edited any reference to June having already had the black eye complex at the supper table on the previous evening! The fact that she had got such a black eye beforehand was potentially beneficial to the defence case, and harmful to the prosevutions case! The answer which June gave to Jeremy that she had walked into a post, was another way of saying, mind your own business! It is rather telling that when one of the farm staff called by telephone that last evening and spoke to Neville Bamber that she reported that Neville was rather abrupt to her and that she got the impression that she might have interrupted an argument! This fits in with Jeremy returning to the farmhouse at supper time to find his parents sat around the table in the kitchen telling Sheila that she needed help to bring up the children! It should be obvious that Neville would have known that June had got the black eye and how she had got it! If Neville knew, there's a good chance June's sister Pamela Boutflour also was told about it! June wouldn't be making arrangements to go to her sisters on the following afternoon for tea and be bringing along Sheila and her two grandchildren if she had got a black eye without telling her sister first! I believe cops received information from the relatives about the black eye complex of June Bamber, how she got it, and whom by! It must have been Sheila who had hit her, and that's why that part of Jeremy's statement where he mentions it was edited out of the typed composite version created in his name by the cops!

FAO Mike  You are a complete moron.  You lack the intelligence, emotional and intellectual, to sit down quietly with documents and draw sensible conclusions even when it is is crystal clear - see attached.  Your hatred of the police prevents you assisting JB.

It is honesty that he lacks.  He hopes others are too stupid/ignorant to learn/know the truth. Unfortunately there are people who are lacking in such intellect for example nugs and lookout who believe everything he says no matter how much evident is brought to bear to prove he is lying.

For the record even if the Pathologist had not assessed it as being likely that the black eye was from the bullet wounds that still would not in any way mean it was unrelated to the murders. There is no way to prove for sure that Nevill's burn marks didn't exist prior to the murders. That doesn't mean they were not inflicting during the course, most likely they were even though it is possible they predated such.

The black eye actually could be incriminatory to Jeremy for several reasons thus a reason to lie and later to ignore the issue entirely. For instance, Jeremy knowing she had a black eye before police released such evidence can be viewed as incriminatory because how would he know unless he were the killer?  That provides a reason to make up that the black eye predated the murders if he provided such detail by accident on his own.

Furthermore, he didn't know it was caused by the bullet he could have thought it was inflicted during a struggle he had with her. Sheila having a struggle with both parents yet no evidence of such on her suggests she didn't do anything.  So there is a reason to want to hide that the killer fought both parents.  Another reason to lie of course is to provide the false suggestion Sheila had erupted prior to the murders.  That's a pretty obvious lie that could help further convince police Sheila was physically dangerous. 

What should be of interest is whether Jeremy told police before or after the family told him June had a black eye because if it was before then that is more evidence of Jeremy's guilt since only the killer would know she had a black eye. 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 27, 2017, 08:13:15 PM
It is honesty that he lacks.  He hopes others are too stupid/ignorant to learn/know the truth. Unfortunately there are people who are lacking in such intellect for example nugs and lookout who believe everything he says no matter how much evident is brought to bear to prove he is lying.

For the record even if the Pathologist had not assessed it as being likely that the black eye was from the bullet wounds that still would not in any way mean it was unrelated to the murders. There is no way to prove for sure that Nevill's burn marks didn't exist prior to the murders. That doesn't mean they were not inflicting during the course, most likely they were even though it is possible they predated such.

The black eye actually could be incriminatory to Jeremy for several reasons thus a reason to lie and later to ignore the issue entirely. For instance, Jeremy knowing she had a black eye before police released such evidence can be viewed as incriminatory because how would he know unless he were the killer?  That provides a reason to make up that the black eye predated the murders if he provided such detail by accident on his own.

Furthermore, he didn't know it was caused by the bullet he could have thought it was inflicted during a struggle he had with her. Sheila having a struggle with both parents yet no evidence of such on her suggests she didn't do anything.  So there is a reason to want to hide that the killer fought both parents.  Another reason to lie of course is to provide the false suggestion Sheila had erupted prior to the murders.  That's a pretty obvious lie that could help further convince police Sheila was physically dangerous. 

What should be of interest is whether Jeremy told police before or after the family told him June had a black eye because if it was before then that is more evidence of Jeremy's guilt since only the killer would know she had a black eye.

It was before, it was while he was giving his first statement - even before Julie had identified the bodies.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 27, 2017, 09:01:16 PM
It was before, it was while he was giving his first statement - even before Julie had identified the bodies.

Unless someone can come up with evidence that the police told him she had a black eye before he claimed she had one prior to the murders this is very bad for Jeremy.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 27, 2017, 10:31:57 PM
Unless someone can come up with evidence that the police told him she had a black eye before he claimed she had one prior to the murders this is very bad for Jeremy.

I agree.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 27, 2017, 11:08:30 PM
I agree.

Where's the evidence JB claimed June had a black eye on 6th Aug?  I certainly don't regard Mike or AE as reliable sources.  There's nothing in JB's WS's.  I don't recall anything in his police interviews either? 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 28, 2017, 01:16:35 AM
Where's the evidence JB claimed June had a black eye on 6th Aug?  I certainly don't regard Mike or AE as reliable sources.  There's nothing in JB's WS's.  I don't recall anything in his police interviews either?

Mike and AE are not even remotely on the same level. You are free to discount AE all you like but seem to do so out of bias.  Most people see no reason to discount AE outright but rather to discount things she says that can be shown to be wrong since people can make mistakes. Mike is a proven liar who intentionally lies to advance his own agenda so can't be trusted period.

 
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 28, 2017, 11:00:54 AM
Mike and AE are not even remotely on the same level. You are free to discount AE all you like but seem to do so out of bias.  Most people see no reason to discount AE outright but rather to discount things she says that can be shown to be wrong since people can make mistakes. Mike is a proven liar who intentionally lies to advance his own agenda so can't be trusted period.

And you're bias free?

Anthony Arlidge QC for the prosecution asked Dr Vanezis:

Q:  That is not a blow from the outside?  A:  No

AE

On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, I hit a post.

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me
.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

If JB told officers that June sustained a black eye prior to 7th Aug then why isn't it in his WS?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5631.msg200221#msg20022

Mike claims police edited it out JB's WS but Mike is a moron and as you said a proven liar so anything he states means squat.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 28, 2017, 11:45:11 AM
Where's the evidence JB claimed June had a black eye on 6th Aug?  I certainly don't regard Mike or AE as reliable sources.  There's nothing in JB's WS's.  I don't recall anything in his police interviews either?

I think Jeremy will be more familiar than most with the injuries sustained by the victims and would know that June did indeed have a black eye and yet, he denied knowing about it when I asked - I can see no reason for him to deny it and find it suspicious. As far as AE's claim goes, I believe he did mention the black eye, just as he mentioned the cash in his dads wallet and then denied that. There are just too many of these instances - of course people can forget various elements but not these kinds of details.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 28, 2017, 11:57:01 AM
I think Jeremy will be more familiar than most with the injuries sustained by the victims and would know that June did indeed have a black eye and yet, he denied knowing about it when I asked - I can see no reason for him to deny it and find it suspicious. As far as AE's claim goes, I believe he did mention the black eye, just as he mentioned the cash in his dads wallet and then denied that. There are just too many of these instances - of course people can forget various elements but not these kinds of details.

Well I'm not a pathologist so I would have no idea how long a bruise takes to appear from gunshot and whether other unrelated gsw's and/or death speed up the appearance, slow it down or make no difference. 

What I do know is that at least one of the two police officers present at GH on 7th Aug: DS Jones and DC Clark also went inside WHF on 7th Aug prior to attending GH.  Imo it is quite possible that this officer made reference to June having a black eye in the presence of all those at GH incl JB and AE and like many aspects of the case it has taken on a life of its own.

Re communication with JB I will start up a new thread to avoid going off-topic.
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Caroline on February 28, 2017, 12:25:28 PM
Well I'm not a pathologist so I would have no idea how long a bruise takes to appear from gunshot and whether other unrelated gsw's and/or death speed up the appearance, slow it down or make no difference. 

What I do know is that at least one of the two police officers present at GH on 7th Aug: DS Jones and DC Clark also went inside WHF on 7th Aug prior to attending GH.  Imo it is quite possible that this officer made reference to June having a black eye in the presence of all those at GH incl JB and AE and like many aspects of the case it has taken on a life of its own.

Re communication with JB I will start up a new thread to avoid going off-topic.

Without any kind of confirmation that it just pure assumption. It doesn't make sense for Jeremy to have heard it from an officer because he claimed it was present whilst she was alive. He said he asked June about it and she said she walked into a post
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 28, 2017, 12:39:36 PM
Without any kind of confirmation that it just pure assumption. It doesn't make sense for Jeremy to have heard it from an officer because he claimed it was present whilst she was alive. He said he asked June about it and she said she walked into a post

But what confirmation do we have from JB about any of the above?
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 28, 2017, 02:21:40 PM
And you're bias free?

Anthony Arlidge QC for the prosecution asked Dr Vanezis:

Q:  That is not a blow from the outside?  A:  No

AE

On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, I hit a post.

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me
.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

If JB told officers that June sustained a black eye prior to 7th Aug then why isn't it in his WS?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5631.msg200221#msg20022

Mike claims police edited it out JB's WS but Mike is a moron and as you said a proven liar so anything he states means squat.

Yes I am bias free and as such I understand that witness statements only contain points that police and the witness think are most significant.  Why do you think that it is preferred to tape witness interviews?  Police notes often miss things.  After someone is questioned and they finally write up a statement they don't put in everything they told police, they can't even remember everything they told police nor will police remember everything they said only the things the police consider most significant.  Notes can even include misinterpretations which is another reason to tape questioning. Taping is a double edged sword. It protects you from police lying about what you said but also prevents you from lying and denying things you said that you regret.


It is not credible that AE made up that Jeremy said June had a black eye prior to the murders. Police didn't consider that too significant because it would not be related to the murders directly. While AE didn't make it up it is possible for her to be wrong.  It is possible for police to have told Jeremy June had a black eye and to have asked if it predated the murders or not.  Since they didn't consider the black eye important as to identifying the killer I doubt they did that though. If he said outright that he saw his sister punch his mother and give her a black eye then they would have had reason to note that because that would support their vision at the time of Sheila being violent.  AE said she got the impression he was trying to imply Sheila could have given June the black eye not stating he witnessed such. That could have gone over the head of police or police could have understood the 
implication but decided it was not worth writing down since it was not supported by anything.

I try to evaluate based on what is most likely true. I don't judge based on bias.

Being free of bias means I am not wed to a position for the sake of the position.

Vanezis felt the black eye was internal because bullets can cause such damage.  A body is not hollow. When a bullet passes through a body the material it is going through doesn't magically vanish it is pushed to the sides of the bullet.  That material is thus pushed into other material. So a bullet to the side of the head can push material towards the front of the head (where the eyes are) as well as towards the brain.  Does a bullet through the head always cause black eye(s)?  No it can but doesn't always.  Can someone get a black eye form being punched without there being significant damage to the skin that demonstrates it was caused by an external injury/  Yes there are not always abrasions to the skin.  Can a doctor assess that a black eye was caused by a bullet though it was actually caused externally? Yes. The way doctors operate is if they see no proof it is external but have an internal cause that could have caused it they will say it most likely was internally caused. Most likely it was but is still possible it was externally caused. I mention the possibility for the sake of accuracy. 

I don't know whether June got out of bed before Jeremy left the room or not.  It is possible she got up or possible she didn't.  If she did get up when Jeremy was in the room then she would have been blocking Jeremy's exit and he would have been blocking her path to the other side of the bed.  That certainly sets the stage for a physical struggle.  He could have punched or pushed her without leaving any obvious damage that could be attributed to such. We can't just say that because there was no obvious damage that had to be associated with a struggle that there was no physical confrontation of any kind and that she had to get out of bed after he left.  We have no way to know. Accepting the limitations the evidence can provide is not being biased but rather being realistic.   

Let's pretend Jeremy didn't clean his clothing, police had seized it before he could remove it and had some spatter from June on his clothing indicating he had an physical altercation with her. Even though she had no obvious damage from such altercation would it disprove the altercation happened?  She was bleeding from numerous gunshot wounds hence why her blood would get on him during an altercation.  We are always working with limitations. Only Jeremy knows whether she got up and actively went towards him or was in his way as he tried to exit.  He could have fired all the shots while they were in bed then ran away.


Most fail to consider he possibility of him running away before the parents got up and think they got up and Nevill left with Jeremy chasing him.  That requires Nevill to have gotten past Jeremy and Jeremy past June. I don't say that out of bias but because it is what would be true if they were right.

I personally think that Jeremy ran away to get more ammo when he realized the gun was empty and his parents not dead and that Nevill followed him to try to prevent him from reloading.  I doubt Nevill fought his way past Jeremy and bouncing off walls he managed to get to the kitchen before Jeremy could catch him and beat him to death. While I see this as most likely what happened it doesn't mean I am right there is still a chance that there was a confrontation in the bedroom and that Nevill got away and went to try to arm himself.  Only Jeremy knows for sure.  All we can do is posit the various possibilities, not say for sure which happened.


Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: Holly Goodhead on February 28, 2017, 02:57:57 PM
Yes I am bias free and as such I understand that witness statements only contain points that police and the witness think are most significant.  Why do you think that it is preferred to tape witness interviews?  Police notes often miss things.  After someone is questioned and they finally write up a statement they don't put in everything they told police, they can't even remember everything they told police nor will police remember everything they said only the things the police consider most significant.  Notes can even include misinterpretations which is another reason to tape questioning. Taping is a double edged sword. It protects you from police lying about what you said but also prevents you from lying and denying things you said that you regret.


It is not credible that AE made up that Jeremy said June had a black eye prior to the murders. Police didn't consider that too significant because it would not be related to the murders directly. While AE didn't make it up it is possible for her to be wrong.  It is possible for police to have told Jeremy June had a black eye and to have asked if it predated the murders or not.  Since they didn't consider the black eye important as to identifying the killer I doubt they did that though. If he said outright that he saw his sister punch his mother and give her a black eye then they would have had reason to note that because that would support their vision at the time of Sheila being violent.  AE said she got the impression he was trying to imply Sheila could have given June the black eye not stating he witnessed such. That could have gone over the head of police or police could have understood the 
implication but decided it was not worth writing down since it was not supported by anything.

I try to evaluate based on what is most likely true. I don't judge based on bias.

Being free of bias means I am not wed to a position for the sake of the position.

Vanezis felt the black eye was internal because bullets can cause such damage.  A body is not hollow. When a bullet passes through a body the material it is going through doesn't magically vanish it is pushed to the sides of the bullet.  That material is thus pushed into other material. So a bullet to the side of the head can push material towards the front of the head (where the eyes are) as well as towards the brain.  Does a bullet through the head always cause black eye(s)?  No it can but doesn't always.  Can someone get a black eye form being punched without there being significant damage to the skin that demonstrates it was caused by an external injury/  Yes there are not always abrasions to the skin.  Can a doctor assess that a black eye was caused by a bullet though it was actually caused externally? Yes. The way doctors operate is if they see no proof it is external but have an internal cause that could have caused it they will say it most likely was internally caused. Most likely it was but is still possible it was externally caused. I mention the possibility for the sake of accuracy. 

I don't know whether June got out of bed before Jeremy left the room or not.  It is possible she got up or possible she didn't.  If she did get up when Jeremy was in the room then she would have been blocking Jeremy's exit and he would have been blocking her path to the other side of the bed.  That certainly sets the stage for a physical struggle.  He could have punched or pushed her without leaving any obvious damage that could be attributed to such. We can't just say that because there was no obvious damage that had to be associated with a struggle that there was no physical confrontation of any kind and that she had to get out of bed after he left.  We have no way to know. Accepting the limitations the evidence can provide is not being biased but rather being realistic.   

Let's pretend Jeremy didn't clean his clothing, police had seized it before he could remove it and had some spatter from June on his clothing indicating he had an physical altercation with her. Even though she had no obvious damage from such altercation would it disprove the altercation happened?  She was bleeding from numerous gunshot wounds hence why her blood would get on him during an altercation.  We are always working with limitations. Only Jeremy knows whether she got up and actively went towards him or was in his way as he tried to exit.  He could have fired all the shots while they were in bed then ran away.


Most fail to consider he possibility of him running away before the parents got up and think they got up and Nevill left with Jeremy chasing him.  That requires Nevill to have gotten past Jeremy and Jeremy past June. I don't say that out of bias but because it is what would be true if they were right.

I personally think that Jeremy ran away to get more ammo when he realized the gun was empty and his parents not dead and that Nevill followed him to try to prevent him from reloading.  I doubt Nevill fought his way past Jeremy and bouncing off walls he managed to get to the kitchen before Jeremy could catch him and beat him to death. While I see this as most likely what happened it doesn't mean I am right there is still a chance that there was a confrontation in the bedroom and that Nevill got away and went to try to arm himself.  Only Jeremy knows for sure.  All we can do is posit the various possibilities, not say for sure which happened.

But as I said to Caroline above what confirmation is there from JB that he mentioned to anyone June had a black eye on 6th Aug?  If he was bandying it about as AE claimed surely he would get it in his WS?

Afaik there's no record of it anywhere other from AE? 

Nothing from JB's WS's or police interviews.  Nothing from any of the other lay prosecution witnesses eg JM et al or police. 

I'm inclined to think AE was mistaken in the same way she was mistaken about the gun case/cupboard but that's of course a whole different story thread and to coin a symbol from Mike '!' 8)-)))
Title: Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
Post by: scipio_usmc on February 28, 2017, 03:23:37 PM
But as I said to Caroline above what confirmation is there from JB that he mentioned to anyone June had a black eye on 6th Aug?  If he was bandying it about as AE claimed surely he would get it in his WS?

Afaik there's no record of it anywhere other from AE? 

Nothing from JB's WS's or police interviews.  Nothing from any of the other lay prosecution witnesses eg JM et al or police. 

I'm inclined to think AE was mistaken in the same way she was mistaken about the gun case/cupboard but that's of course a whole different story thread and to coin a symbol from Mike '!' 8)-)))


You are describing AE being mistaken about Jeremy saying the black eye predated the murder.  It is highly unlikely that Jeremy said she had no black eye prior to the murders and yet AE screwed up and falsely remembered him saying the black eye predated the murder.  This is simply not likely at all nor is it likely she made the claim up from thin air and that the black eye was not mentioned at all by him.

It is clear to me he did discuss the black eye and did say it was prior to the murders thus catching AE's attention. I don't view it as credible that she made it up or got it wrong.  A lot of things caught her attention that police ignored because they simply believed Sheila did it.  That is where police look their worst actually. They failed to follow up with Jeremy on issues they should have. 

For instance, they never followed up with him about his initial lie to police that she fired all the weapons in the house and he trained her how to use them did they?  By the time of his statements he thought the better of it and dropped the claim he trained her and also that she fired the weapons. I think you would agree that they should have asked him to account for the dramatic change.

Your best bet is to say maybe police told him she had a black eye and asked him if she had it prior to the murders. 
That fails to explain why he lied about her having it prior but would prevent it from proving he had knowledge only the killer would know if he broached it before police noted June had a black eye. 

Why would Jeremy lie about the black eye being prior to the murders- there are 2 possibilities:

1) to make police think Sheila had beaten June prior to the murders to get them to further believe she was violent

2) thinking it must have happened while June was beaten and thus to try to conceal that June was beaten during the course of the murders