Sherlock. The psychological aspects of bundleman.

[AnneGuedes]

Thanks for the info, Anne. I was under the impression that some people were looking in bins, and I read somewhere that Gerry was looking on the beach. Did he expect her to be alive there, with the tides and so on?

Where is it recorded that the Smiths spoke to bundleman? Why would they ask him if he needed help if he didn't seem comfortable? I'm not sure if I understand...

Nobody looked in the bins, on that night, except for a woman (at least she said she did).
I know nothing about Mr McCann looking on the beach. His companions did.
If the Smiths had met Bundleman, i.e Tannerman or the faceless carrier, they likely had asked him what was happening to the child.
You meet a man walking with a child on his arms in the middle of the night, you wonder whether the child is sick or has been hurt, you offer your help, don't you ?
But Smithman was carrying normally, so they had no reason to say anything (a newspaper said Mrs Smith asked something and Smithman didn't answer, but we don't know if this is true).  One of the Smiths though found he was holding the child clumsily.

[sadie]

Nobody looked in the bins, on that night, except for a woman (at least she said she did).
I know nothing about Mr McCann looking on the beach. His companions did.
If the Smiths had met Bundleman, i.e Tannerman or the faceless carrier, they likely had asked him what was happening to the child.
You meet a man walking with a child on his arms in the middle of the night, you wonder whether the child is sick or has been hurt, you offer your help, don't you ?
But Smithman was carrying normally, so they had no reason to say anything (a newspaper said Mrs Smith asked something and Smithman didn't answer, but we don't know if this is true).  One of the Smiths though found he was holding the child clumsily.

Why are you spreading disinformation Anne? 

Wheres this stuff about The Smiths having a coversation with ?bundleman come from?  A new myth being formed?
There are photos of Gerry searching on the beach amonst the rocks, as you must know

Why are you being sarky Anne:?
How would you have drawn a picture of bundleman if you hadn't seen enough of his face to remember?  Maybe YOU would have invented one? 

Are you just trying to belittle Jane ... and so diminish the value of her witness statement?

What is it with you?

[sadie]

Anne,


Given the lack of meticulousness in the search that followed - such as the rubbish collection in Luz a a few hours after M's disappearance -  she was less likely to be detected. Thereafter, a poorly buried / concealed body, in a Mediterranean climate,  would not last long to the elements.

However if it was poorly buried, then the scavengers would give it away.  Madeleine left PdL alive.

It is interesting that you mention a father not carrying his victim like a child. I find it significant the way bundleman was carrying his victim during the Tanner sighting. This is definitely not how a father would carry his child; in fact, it is not the way a person who is a parent and used to holding children would carry any child. I deduce, based upon this fact and others, that bundleman was not a parent himself. His interaction with children was very far from the norm.

Glad you agree, Sherlock,  that wasn't a father carrying his child home.  He carried like that because he had been passed Madeleine like that.  Had he lifted her from her bed, then Madeleines head would have been on his opposite arm.  You are probably right that bundleman wasn't a father.

This shows that there was a lifter as well as bundleman.

By the time he saw the Smiths, he had been walking for some time carrying a heavy child. Therefore carrying her 'normally' on his shoulder was the position he switched to. It was a much easier way of carrying. Given that he made the decision to carry her through the town for some time, he had to do it in a way that was reasonably comfortable.

No way had he walked all that time.  He had stopped off somewhere, be it at his flat or be it at The Staff Quarters.  There are so many pointers to the Staff Quarters that I favour it, above a flat ... but we may both be wrong.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Anne says:
You meet a man walking with a child on his arms in the middle of the night, you wonder whether the child is sick or has been hurt, you offer your help, don't you ?
But Smithman was carrying normally, so they had no reason to say anything (a newspaper said Mrs Smith asked something and Smithman didn't answer, but we don't know if this is true).  One of the Smiths though found he was holding the child clumsily.
[/quote]

What would indicate that the child was sick? It was only 10pm, and if it the man was carrying the child normally, why not just assume it was a father collecting a child from a babysitter, or some other innocent scenario?

I am still not clear on whether he was carrying normally or not...

[sadie]

Good night Sherlock

[Sherlock Holmes]

What about those wells, Sadie?

And we'll discuss the passer tomorrow...

[AnneGuedes]

Smithman = the carrier seen by the Smiths. He carried as any one would. The Smiths had no reason to think the carrier wasn't the father/brother/uncle of the little girl and no reason to suspect there was a problem with her.
Bundleman = the carrier seen by Ms Tanner (I call him faceless man because Ms Tanner said nothing about his face). He carried as no one would, at least for more than a few steps, except for firemen, first aiders, to secure a little victim, either badly hurt or dead. If the Smiths had seen this carrier, but they didn't, they likely would have offered their help.
Imo most people, meeting such a carrier, would have.

[sadie]

Smithman = the carrier seen by the Smiths. He carried as any one would. The Smiths had no reason to think the carrier wasn't the father/brother/uncle of the little girl and no reason to suspect there was a problem with her.
Bundleman = the carrier seen by Ms Tanner (I call him faceless man because Ms Tanner said nothing about his face). He carried as no one would, at least for more than a few steps. Except for firemen, first aiders, either to secure a little victim, either badly hurt or dead. If the Smiths had seen this carrier, but they didn't, they likely would have offered their help.
Imo most people, meeting such a carrier, would have.

bundleman was carrying as he did because Madeleine had been passed to him that way by the lifter.  That is the straight out of bed lift, when you want to keep ,a child asleep.  Madeleines head would have been on the lifters right arm, but as she was passed to bundleman, her head ended up on bundlemans left arm.

1)  Because she was on his left arm in that sleeping position, we virtually KNOW that there were two people on the scene at 5A.   

2)  We also virtually KNOW that bundleman exited through the front door, cos she couldn't have gone thru the window in that flat extended position

3)  As at the time of the abduction, about 9.20-9.30ish, Mrs Caroline Carpenter heard the words "Madeleine, Madeleine" whispered, murmured (Marias translation) we also virtually know that this was a planned abduction ... cos the abductor knew Madeleines name

4)  Because she heard that we also know that Madeleine was carried somewhere on the route they took back home, which I think was described as the semi-circular route, and to get there they had to across the alleyway Aldeamente Ocean Club. 
Therefore the abductor DID go down Aldeamente The Ocean Club as discussed before, and presumably he was hoping to reconnoitre with the get-away vehicle on the little car park opposite The Tapas Reception... but it had gone

5)  One other thing, these words prove that Madeleine WAS THE TARGET.  Bundleman knew her name.

Hmm.  quite a lot of almost definite facts learned from that


also, (6)  as Sherlock says,  bundleman was not a father, it seems, cos he hadn't apparantly realised how tiring it would be to carry that way.


Thank you Anne and Sherlock for causing me to revisit this scenario.  Much falls into place. 
  Well done, both of you

[Sherlock Holmes]

bundleman was carrying as he did because Madeleine had been passed to him that way by the lifter.  That is the straight out of bed lift, when you want to keep ,a child asleep.  Madeleines head would have been on the lifters right arm, but as she was passed to bundleman, her head ended up on bundlemans left arm.

1)  Because she was on his left arm in that sleeping position, we virtually KNOW that there were two people on the scene at 5A.   

Sadie, Could it possibly be that Bundleman was left-handed? Being left-handed myself, I find it uncomfortable to carry a child/baby, of whatever age, with the head resting on my right arm. Could it be that Bundleman picked up Madeleine from the bed by bending over her and putting his left arm underneath her shoulders/neck, then scooping up her legs with his right hand? Or, could he have lifted her initially with her head over his right arm, only to find this an uncomfortable position for him as a leftie? He then would switch sides.[/color]

That would obviate the need for a 'passer'.


2)  We also virtually KNOW that bundleman exited through the front door, cos she couldn't have gone thru the window in that flat extended position

Makes sense

3)  As at the time of the abduction, about 9.20-9.30ish, Mrs Caroline Carpenter heard the words "Madeleine, Madeleine" whispered, murmured (Marias translation) we also virtually know that this was a planned abduction ... cos the abductor knew Madeleines name

4)  Because she heard that we also know that Madeleine was carried somewhere on the route they took back home, which I think was described as the semi-circular route, and to get there they had to across the alleyway Aldeamente Ocean Club. 
Therefore the abductor DID go down Aldeamente The Ocean Club as discussed before, and presumably he was hoping to reconnoitre with the get-away vehicle on the little car park opposite The Tapas Reception... but it had gone

5)  One other thing, these words prove that Madeleine WAS THE TARGET.  Bundleman knew her name[/b][/color].


Hmm.  quite a lot of almost definite facts learned from that


also, (6)  as Sherlock says,  bundleman was not a father, it seems, cos he hadn't apparantly realised how tiring it would be to carry that way.


Thank you Anne and Sherlock for causing me to revisit this scenario.  Much falls into place. 
 8@??)(Well done, both of you

[sadie]

Could be that he was left handed Sherlock, but not likely

[Sherlock Holmes]

Could be that he was left handed Sherlock, but not likely

Ten per cent of the world's population is left-handed. That's quite a lot of people, Sadie. Why so unlikely?

Nothing in this case was very likely to have happened - one in a million that a child disappears - but she did.

You seem to know more about criminal gangs that I do. Don't they employ lefties? Isn't that discrimination?

[sadie]

Ten per cent of the world's population is left-handed. That's quite a lot of people, Sadie. Why so unlikely?

Nothing in this case was very likely to have happened - one in a million that a child disappears - but she did.

You seem to know more about criminal gangs that I do. Don't they employ lefties? Isn't that discrimination?

10% chance only and most people can carry a child on either arm. 

Not likely, but a possibility.

[AnneGuedes]

SH said
Could it be that Bundleman picked up Madeleine from the bed by bending over her and putting his left arm underneath her shoulders/neck, then scooping up her legs with his right hand? Or, could he have lifted her initially with her head over his right arm, only to find this an uncomfortable position for him as a leftie? He then would switch sides.
As I feel like Dr Watson, I find more pertinent to wonder about doing this operation without waking up the child.

[Sherlock Holmes]

SH said
Could it be that Bundleman picked up Madeleine from the bed by bending over her and putting his left arm underneath her shoulders/neck, then scooping up her legs with his right hand? Or, could he have lifted her initially with her head over his right arm, only to find this an uncomfortable position for him as a leftie? He then would switch sides.
As I feel like Dr Watson, I find more pertinent to wonder about doing this operation without waking up the child.

It probably would be of concern to the abductor, but apparently she did not wake up, as she appeared to be sleeping soundly when Jane saw her, after being exposed to the cool night air.

Perhaps the abductor administered a drug..

[Chinagirl]

It probably would be of concern to the abductor, but apparently she did not wake up, as she appeared to be sleeping soundly when Jane saw her, after being exposed to the cool night air.

Perhaps the abductor administered a drug..

Not the most original comment.  It's only been discussed by countless people on numerous forums for the past six years .....!