Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back  (Read 24075 times)

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Offline Myster

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2012, 07:34:18 PM »
Of course they look hollow in black and white photos. In the coloured photos they don't look quite like that.

We don't have the benefit of the coloured photos on this site Mat..., maybe on the closed shop forum.


‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline abs

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2012, 07:43:40 PM »
OMG, I tried googling cigarette burn marks - and there were pictures of BABIES with such marks. I am close to tears, I wish I hadn´t seen that.

About Ralph´s marks - if they were cigarette burn marks, wouldn´t there have been some black smudging from ashes around the marks?

Offline Andrea

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2012, 07:46:33 PM »
Hi, Abs  ?{)(**

Hows you today?  All well i hope  8((()*/

Offline Myster

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2012, 08:44:44 PM »
OMG, I tried googling cigarette burn marks - and there were pictures of BABIES with such marks. I am close to tears, I wish I hadn´t seen that.

About Ralph´s marks - if they were cigarette burn marks, wouldn´t there have been some black smudging from ashes around the marks?


Not necessarily, if excess cigarette/cigar ash was tapped off first, Abs. Nevill was found with pyjama top on and I can find no reference to burn holes in it in Vanezis' reports. And any ash smudges could have been brushed off by the top when the body was removed for post-mortem, when I presume the photographs were taken.

‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline abs

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2012, 09:37:31 PM »
OMG, I tried googling cigarette burn marks - and there were pictures of BABIES with such marks. I am close to tears, I wish I hadn´t seen that.

About Ralph´s marks - if they were cigarette burn marks, wouldn´t there have been some black smudging from ashes around the marks?


Not necessarily, if excess cigarette/cigar ash was tapped off first, Abs. Nevill was found with pyjama top on and I can find no reference to burn holes in it in Vanezis' reports. And any ash smudges could have been brushed off by the top when the body was removed for post-mortem, when I presume the photographs were taken.

Perhaps - I would still think there would be some residue left on the skin. Skin has a little moisture and ashes blended with moisture is totally black and would stick to the skin.

Anyway, if Ralph was burnt with a cigarette, there would have been some serious anger directed at him especially, since none of the others were burnt that way.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 09:42:39 PM by abs »

Offline Joanne

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2012, 09:48:44 PM »
Rigour can start after 90 minutes but usually it's evident after 2 hours. So by 4 hours, it will have definately been there.

Offline starryian

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2012, 08:41:36 PM »
I doubt very much that these are cigarette burns. These are probably burns from the barrel of the rifle used by Bamber. I believe that Nevil was frogmarched down the stairs by Bamber for two reasons; firstly he wanted Nevil in to be found in the kitchen in order to back up his story of receiving a distress call from his father. Secondly I think Bamber had run out of bullets in the intial attack in the main bedroom Bamber fired off more bullets than expected and simply ran out. This was to be Bamber's first miscalculation. We must remember that the bullets for the gun were next to the telephone downstairs in the kitchen. The ONLY way for Bamber to complete both tasks would be for him to force Nevil downstairs at the point of the barrel fitted with a silencer the tip of which was now scolding hot from discharging the contents of a whole magazine. Nevil was viciously manhandled at barrel point down the stairs, bleeding profusely from wounds he had already received in the bedroom. It was now that Bamber's second miscalculation occurred. Nevil made a grab for the gun and managed to get a firm grip of the barrel or silencer. It was at this point I believe the struggle - one for life the other for death - occurred. Bamber fearing that Nevil could escape and raise the alarm desparately tried to wrench the gun from Nevil's grasp. The two men obviously were pulling the rifle between them to-and-fro, leaving the kitchen furniture in some disarray and scratch marks on the mantlepiece. I believe that Nevil now weakening from his wounds released his grip slightly and Bamber managed to wrest it from him. It was here that Bamber upturned the empty rifle and swung it like club making contact with Nevils' head, jaw and arms so viciously that the wooden stock of the gun broke, knocking the beleagured farmer unconscious. It was at this point that Bamber has the precious seconds to reach the kitchen counter and reload the rifle. He then walked calmly up to the motionless figure and coldly pumped four more shots into him as he slumped at a jaunty angle on the back of the chair, killing him instantly. In a final gory act, Nevil's head fell forward in to the coal scuttle into the position where he was later found by police.
This gruesome event was the precursor of what was the come for the rest of the family. Nevil, I suspect was the first to die, although not the first to be shot. That terrible honour belonged to June. Rather chillingly both of Bamber's parents would have been aware of exactly whom their attacker was - Both were not killed instantly and they both would have looked into his evil eyes, and both would have realised exactly what they had brought into their home and would have suffered a terrible, agonising death at the hands of the arrogant, psychopathic, greedy ingrate they gave a home to.
Starryian..

Offline Outlook

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2013, 11:25:31 PM »
Agreed, I am quite at ease and understand most aspects of the Bamber case.  I find it a very simple case and one of the last mysteries for me was solved just tonight.  Other cases I struggle with but doubtlessly this sort of forum will help me.

The one that really upset me was the Stephan Kiszko case which was terrible in its consequences.

Welcome Outlook. Just out of interest what was one of the last mysteries about the case for you? And how was it solved?

Well I pride myself on my logical approach but I could not get my head around the alleged "burn" marks on Mr Bamber's back.  Then I found a link on this site that solved it for me (to my simple mind anyway).  Obvious when it is pointed out.  I cannot imagine why the appeal court and forensics are so confused.  All these "experts" messing around with AGAs and blowlamps Pah...

I cannot find the thread now, most annoying.  I think it was David or John that solved it for me.  Here is the Youtube video that clears it all up for me though:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 11:37:23 PM by Outlook »

Offline Myster

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2013, 08:44:40 AM »
Well I pride myself on my logical approach but I could not get my head around the alleged "burn" marks on Mr Bamber's back.  Then I found a link on this site that solved it for me (to my simple mind anyway).  Obvious when it is pointed out.  I cannot imagine why the appeal court and forensics are so confused.  All these "experts" messing around with AGAs and blowlamps Pah...

I cannot find the thread now, most annoying.  I think it was David or John that solved it for me.  Here is the Youtube video that clears it all up for me though:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgz0lqGVouo

The thread and post were here, by the way.... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=914.msg29705#msg29705

That's what I thought on first viewing it.... a hot cartridge shell had rebounded onto Nevill's nape to cause the burns (weren't only three shells rather than four from the final four gunshots found on the kitchen floor)... but looking at the size of the .22 Eley shells (the diameter of the circular flange or rim at the bottom being only about 7mm.) in comparison to the circular/oval shaped burns (10mm.dia. and above), do they not seem too small?

And then again there were three burns of various sizes, whereas with a single hot shell wouldn't you expect to find just the one mark?

Stills of Nevill's burn marks from the ITV documentary (only three burns in total, the middle two are the same one)


.22 rimfire bullets with millimetre scale.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:16:32 PM by Myster »
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Outlook

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2013, 02:35:03 PM »
Ah thank you.  I could not find it anywhere.

I hate to speculate as members state we must stick to facts but three shots fired quickly from the same pose would result in the three cartridge cases going in essentially the same direction but landing in a random orientation for the first impact and then bouncing off in an unpredictable manner but then I am no ballistics expert.  The three marks are generally the same size the uppermost being lighter in nature.  The lower one is a slightly different nature having a centre mark.  Also a slight increase in size "may"(?) be expected due to skin elasticity making the wound larger over several hours.  There may be some pathology expertize in this respect?  It is not clear to me where exactly the wounds are on Mr Bamber's back or the muscle groups involved under the skin.  Assuming he was standing and then fell forward "Would the skin and muscle tissue stretch and distort as his body came to rest?"  (I am not calling for further tests as that would change nothing).

The idea of one or more of the cartridge cases being the cause makes more sense to me as opposed to heating up the barrel or silencer in the Aga (and we don't know even if it was on) or with a blow lamp or cigar or cigarette burns.  I just felt that impact from hot cartridge cases was more likely than heating up the AGA and gun barrel or having a cigar.  I do not buy into the argument of "post-mortem torture" at all.

It was just until I saw the video I had no idea of the cartridge cases being red hot and being ejected in a generally forward direction.  Not being an experienced gun owner I had expected them to be ejected sideways like in a miltary automatic weapon and being relatively cool.

Maybe there is a more appropriate thread for this sort of discussion?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 02:38:54 PM by Outlook »

Offline John

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2013, 04:57:19 PM »
 I must admit, the three burn marks on Nevill's back have never been explained to my satisfaction.  They were used by Simon McKay in the last application submitted to the CCRC as evidence but rejected as being simply more speculation.  McKay responded asking for more tests.

The thing is though, we don't even know for sure when they were made.  McKay makes one very big assumption in all of this and that is that the marks were made on the morning of the murders.  He puts forward the theory that the marks were made by the hot tip of the rifle but this has been shown to not be the case.  Tests have shown that the rifle tip never gets anywhere near the temperatures required to inflict such burn marks.

We then have the various theories put forward by the blue forum that the assailant went to the bother of heating the rifle on the Aga cooker before making the marks on Nevill's back. Considering that time was of the essence in this viscous attack I don't believe for a minute that is what occurred.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2013, 04:59:09 PM »
Just so everyone knows, I have moved the posts relating to Stephan Kiszko to a new topic within the general discussion board, it can be found here.

The posts relating to the three burn marks on Nevill's back have been merged into the original thread.

Thank you, that is very kind.  I know I was drifting "Off-topic," this is more logical.

It often happens that two or more cases are referred to in a single post so it is quite the norm. Jackie being an expert at this of course.   @)(++(*

In relation to the burn marks, could they have been made as a means of ascertaining if Nevill was still alive?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 05:01:09 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Myster

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2013, 06:18:18 PM »
In relation to the burn marks, could they have been made as a means of ascertaining if Nevill was still alive?

It would have involved less hassle if he'd simply felt for a wrist pulse, but he probably realised he'd get his fingers covered in blood, leaving tell-tale fingerprints, or more likely he would have no idea where to feel for it anyway.

‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2013, 06:25:58 PM »
The burn marks on Mr Bambers's back were circular so surely this would mean that the bullet end would only have come into contact with the skin for a picot second until it bounced off/fell to the ground?  Would such limited contact have been sufficient to cause burning?  Surely the example Myster gives is different in that the shirt was able to keep the bullet in contact with the skin for a period of time?

What would the statistical chances be of this happening three times will all three marks in such close proximity?

If this is a possibility surely it would be a known phenomeon with ballistic experts?

Perhaps I have picked up incorrectly?  It certainly sounds more logical though than cigars, heating up various instruments and torture.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline John

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Re: Jeremy Bamber - The three burn marks on Nevill's back
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2013, 06:28:30 PM »
Here are the three images again enhanced which compare the three marks on Nevill's back with the tests carried out by Simon McKay and Mark Williams-Thomas for the ITV documentary.












« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 06:32:15 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.