Author Topic: Joana Cipriano case - forensics  (Read 13688 times)

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Offline John

Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« on: November 30, 2013, 08:23:50 PM »
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 07:51:55 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 04:07:45 PM »
What exactly is the forensic evidence in this case?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 04:12:40 PM by Carana »

Redblossom

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 10:12:22 PM »
What exactly is the forensic evidence in this case?

What do you mean by forensic evidence?


Offline John

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 10:33:01 PM »
What exactly is the forensic evidence in this case?

Mostly relates to the detection of human blood, semen and chemicals used for cleaning in the family home.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:38:31 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 01:13:59 PM »

Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home. And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home and that it was then that the arguidos hit her. Such is clear from the reconstitution file that has been appended to the process at pages 273 and following, namely from the photographs on pages 282, 284, 285, 286 , 287, 291 and 292, with the contents of said reconstitution file being confirmed by inspectors CC3 and CC4, who were present during the event and described the actions that were practised by arguido AA [João Cipriano] during said reconstitution.

Bit by bit...

This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home.

Well, yes, most children do get back home, thankfully, after running a short errand in a village, except for those who don't.

Then we get that:

And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home

What is that certainty based on?


Offline Anna

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 04:22:15 PM »
Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home. And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home and that it was then that the arguidos hit her. Such is clear from the reconstitution file that has been appended to the process at pages 273 and following, namely from the photographs on pages 282, 284, 285, 286 , 287, 291 and 292, with the contents of said reconstitution file being confirmed by inspectors CC3 and CC4, who were present during the event and described the actions that were practised by arguido AA [João Cipriano] during said reconstitution.

Bit by bit...

This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home.

Well, yes, most children do get back home, thankfully, after running a short errand in a village, except for those who don't.

Then we get that:

And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home

What is that certainty based on?


Strange how she was seen by several witness...................Until after the church, when she would have had to pass many houses and nobody saw her on this second half of her journey ???

Forensics
Blood if I recall was only known to be human and animal but not from whom it came
Semen was explained by lodger who had his girlfriend stay over
also by the supermarket lady who took her to Hosp with cough, had the doc check her out for abuse......Neg
washing material ....proved she washed the floor etc

http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/suspeita-de-violacao-da-menina
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 04:36:19 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 04:32:57 PM »
I simply can't find anything to convince me that she actually got home that evening.  8(8-))


Offline John

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 04:42:47 PM »
I simply can't find anything to convince me that she actually got home that evening.  8(8-))

Well if you choose to ignore the fact that her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for, the shopping was in the house and she was seen after she left the church on her way home...
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 04:59:11 PM »
Well if you choose to ignore the fact that her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for, the shopping was in the house and she was seen after she left the church on her way home...

I'm not choosing to ignore anything, John, despite your assumptions to the contrary.

-  "Her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for" - by whom? One person who didn't even live with the family, anyone else? She'd been to a birthday party that day - it's plausible that she'd changed footwear between going home and running the errand. I can't find anything in the SC document as to whether the café lady or the ciggie lady were asked about what footwear she was wearing when they saw her. I might have missed it, however. Could you confirm?

- You and Angelo keep mentioning that her shopping was found in the house, but by whom and when? I haven't found that either.

- Yes, she was apparently last seen on her way home climbing steps near a market... whatever that means.


Offline Anna

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 08:16:07 PM »
I'm not choosing to ignore anything, John, despite your assumptions to the contrary.

-  "Her shoes and flip flops were all accounted for" - by whom? One person who didn't even live with the family, anyone else? She'd been to a birthday party that day - it's plausible that she'd changed footwear between going home and running the errand. I can't find anything in the SC document as to whether the café lady or the ciggie lady were asked about what footwear she was wearing when they saw her. I might have missed it, however. Could you confirm?

- You and Angelo keep mentioning that her shopping was found in the house, but by whom and when? I haven't found that either.

- Yes, she was apparently last seen on her way home climbing steps near a market... whatever that means.

 

The witness of Ofélia Santos, owner of the cafe where joana went for the purchases on the night that she disappeared, already not long when Marcia spoke. "I wanted to know if she recalls what joana wore dress? AND footwear? The colour of the shoes." "A jacket, a skirt and I don't remember the rest," replied the witness.


http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/irmaos-nem-trocam-olhares
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 03:03:04 PM »
Thanks, Anna, so the café lady was asked, but didn't remember. If you find anything about the ciggie lady, that would be helpful.

Offline Anna

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 03:48:49 PM »
Thanks, Anna, so the café lady was asked, but didn't remember. If you find anything about the ciggie lady, that would be helpful.

Sorry Carana,
It seems he wasn't asked.
The witness neighbour, reported that on 12 September, by 8h 30m / 8h 40m, was the window of his house, smoking, when he saw  Joane, with a bag in hand, go up the stairs in the proximity of the market, towards her house. The witness said that in that place there was no movement, nor saw cars, nor heard any cry, although he stayed at the window for some time longer. SAID that there was the "Feast of Cockles", which occurred far from that location and for that reason there was nobody there.
The witness AA4  ? said he had seen the Joana on the night, but could not specify the hours.

I am still puzzled by the......
1. "stairs" I think it might be a translation error It could mean road or pavement
2."Market" I think is probably the minimarket across from Celia
and where are these witnesses who saw her by the church or are they the same two witnesses ?
 I think they must be
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 03:08:13 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2013, 09:06:02 AM »
According to Astro's translation concerning AA3 (on the previous page), AA3 was translated as being a woman. However, rereading the original, I can't tell if it's a male or female witness, as the feminine "testamunha" is used for either gender and I can't find any other clue at the moment to verify the gender. The same for AA4.

Anyway, that doesn't seem to be important.

"... a subir as escadas na proximidade do mercado, em direcção a casa".

To me, that really does seem to be saying climbing the steps near the market, heading towards home. If there was indeed a mini-market near Café Celia with a few steps nearby, that might be it.

Offline Carana

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2013, 09:28:40 AM »
Anyway, despite what seems to be very flimsy evidence that she actually got home... let's move on to the supposed living-room massacre, 


The matter that was considered to be proved in items aa), ab), ac), ad), ae), af), ag), ah) ai), aj) al), am), an), ap), aah), aai), aaj) and aam) was based on the deposition of witnesses AA3, CC3, CC4, DD, CC8, II, DD1 , MM and BB1, on the reconstitution files and on the search and apprehension files, as well as on the subsequent forensic exam, all interpreted under the light of the rules of experience.

Witness AA3, at around 8.30/8.40 p.m., saw CC [Joana Cipriano] walking up the stairs near the market, into the direction of her home, with a bag, a sign that she was returning from shopping (and we know that she did the shopping, from the deposition of witness NN). This witness, who was smoking at the window, stayed at the window for some time and verified that there was no movement on location, nor did she see any cars, or heard any screams. This means that, according to the rules of experience, and given the fact that the route is short, what is normal is that the minor returned home. And there is no doubt that CC arrived at home and that it was then that the arguidos hit her. Such is clear from the reconstitution file that has been appended to the process at pages 273 and following, namely from the photographs on pages 282, 284, 285, 286 , 287, 291 and 292, with the contents of said reconstitution file being confirmed by inspectors CC3 and CC4, who were present during the event and described the actions that were practised by arguido AA [João Cipriano] during said reconstitution.

In that reconstitution, the arguido exemplifies the slaps that he gave CC in the face, the spot where she hit her head, another spot where she hit her head following the aggression from the mother, he showed how the minor bled from the nose, temple and mouth, exemplified the minor’s fall, how they verified that the minor was effectively dead and how the co-arguida BB [Leonor Cipriano] proceeded to clean the blood spots, with the help of a bucket and a mop.

On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM [Leandro] Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.

These traces, according to forensics exams, are of human blood and of human and animal blood (cfr. page 235), and although insufficient to establish whom they belong to through the DNA (pages 1780 and following), they reveal that something terrible happened in that living room, something that originated the existence of human blood on the floor and on the walls, which was cleaned with a mop and a bucket; the blood that was on the mop was located on the handle, revealing that the person who used the mop had in turn his or her hands dirty with blood. Therefore, the traces that were collected in the living room reinforce the reliability of the reconstitution.

Offline John

Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2013, 09:39:49 AM »
It is traditional to have the market in the middle of the village and the only location which fits the bill in Figueira is by the recently rebuilt church. 

The only steps in the village between the Cipriano former home and Celia's Cafe are again located at the front and rear of the church site which is slightly elevated.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.