Author Topic: Joana Cipriano case - forensics  (Read 12537 times)

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Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2013, 11:56:14 AM »
Very possible John, but she would be heading in the wrong direction if she went up stairs to church or whatever was there previously . Also says stairs heading to market and home. There probably has been a lot of building completed since then, which means there could have been stairs somewhere and in fact, if you look on the map there are disused steps to the side of the minimarket but the direction would be wrong for home and the witnesses who saw her heading in direction of market, church and home.
 The witnesses must have to been able to see the church and market. There is a space at the side of the mini market, big enough for a market (where the old stairs unused are) but I think we just have to forget the stairs for now, which are obviously no longer there. Also noticed when in map view that it shows a road or walkway going down the side of the minimarket. complicated indeed, but it will sort itself out eventually, fingers crossed!
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Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2013, 12:15:46 PM »
I think there are too many threads to this subject now. We are all over the place, but I will have to post the same in each. The mini market is across the road from Celia only celias step and the kerb to go up to get there and she would have to cross to have a path  or use the steps.   Who mentioned the church ? its not in any statements

OK Carana Times:

Timeline
Times  Left home around                               8 h pm ???
Arrived at Celia around                                  8h 20pm / 8h 30pm
After shopping  left Celia around                     8h.30Pm / 8h.35pm                                                       
Last time Seen, in proximity to market going to stairs that led to her home           8h.30PM / 8h 40pm
Earliest possible to get home                           8.35pm to 8.40
(I think these are the same witnesses who saw her approaching market So must be near market/steps and opp side of road)

Leandro and pal in Celias at around          9 .00PM according
 to Celia 
Joa leaves the house                               9.10/9.15
Joao arrives at Celias at about                  9. 20PM according to celia lady
They all go home immediately                  9. 25pm according to Leandro
                             
Leona and Joao go to Celia  around          10. 30PM according to celia   
leaving at approx                                    11.pm to go home and according to Celias

John goes home to sit with babies
Leandro and mate go to search  approx   10.00 pm Leonora joins them 11 pm ish
Celia goes to their home to see if joana is back   12mn
Leonor, Leandro and pal are just returning          12 mn and decide to go search some more with Celia  at                                                           12.30 ish
Leonor and Joao’s brother, is around as well… At Celia, church where Leonor saw GNR,
cockle feast and their home I believe
Leonor and johns brother sees them all around 11.30
Celia helps search and phones police approx        12.30/40
Leonora informs GNR near the church. who tells her to report it tomorrow

==============================================
If Joana got home earliest 8.35 the evil deed would be done 9.15 latest, this includes getting cleaned and changed before Joao left for celias 9.15 latest.
 Or  Joana got home 8.40/5 and still would be 9.15 latest
unless Carlos’s times were correct and Celia’s and witnesses were wrong of course as there was a 30 min difference

 30 to 35 mins to argue with the child, kill her, decide what to do, and argue with each other, conceal the body, clean the walls and floors and get washed and changed , not to mention laundry and clothing concealment. Nah !
Even an extra 30 mins wouldn’t convince me
 And when the men got back from Celia at 9.25/35 , Leandro and Carlos noticed nothing different about the house clean wise, which would have, freshly washed floors, surely?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.35/8.40       to 8.40/8.45 trying to pull the child back and argue
8.40/8.45       to 8.50/8.55 hitting the child until she fell lifeless
8.50/8.55       to 9.00/9.05  Argue with each other and decide what to do
9.00/9.05       to 9.10/9.15  Conceal Body
9.10/9.15       to 9.15/9.20  Washed and changed
These are the shortest times that I believe possible
Now Joao has to leave at 9.15 the latest, to be at celia for 9.20
Leonor is left to wash, change, clean the walls, the floors and conceal bloody laundry before the men return at 9.30 ?????????????



When was all the really macabre stuff suppose to happen ??????????????????

  OK I have checked back.....................According to 2006 appeal it was when Joao went back to the house at 9.30 ish,after waylaying Leandro and Carlos who then supposedly had gone searching ???????

 but I believe (according to statements) that they all went home first and then they went with Leonor, searching for Joana
                                           This cant be right !!!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 05:20:54 PM by anna »
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Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2013, 03:52:33 PM »
There is some old steps already being broken up to replace with a road which is down the side of the minimarket. If she went this way she would be at the back of the church when seen for last time


http://goo.gl/maps/gSUGr
http://goo.gl/maps/b9zIi
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 07:40:45 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Online Eleanor

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2013, 05:13:04 PM »

So still no real evidence.  Only what The PJ presumed.

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2013, 05:38:49 PM »
So still no real evidence.  Only what The PJ presumed.

Hi Eleanor, No, Still cant find any proof of a murder, by Leonor
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Online Eleanor

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2013, 06:04:00 PM »
Hi Eleanor, No, Still cant find any proof of a murder, by Leonor

No one can, Anna, because there isn't any.

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 10:19:19 PM »
Apparently she was seen near the church, but the only reference to that siting is in a newspaper. No witness statements that I have seen
If she didn't go past the church, but took a back shortcut by the steps by the market and over fields, it would bring her out by some steps going down the back, to her house.
I must add that although new houses were being built in that area in 2010 , I doubt there was anything but wasteland and not a safe route for a youngster in 2004. It knocks about 100 meters off the trip home.

http://goo.gl/maps/sfuIE
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 11:15:02 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Offline Carana

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2013, 09:21:04 PM »
Leandro reckoned he and MM got to the Café at around 9pm, MM reckoned it was around 9:30/10 pm. Anyway, João went to find them and both Leandro and MM went back home. It's not clear if João went back as well at that point, as it just says "they went back home", although it seems so as Leandro suggested that Leonor check with neighbours (he says he doesn't know if she did or not), while he and MM went off to the fair area to check there (seemingly split up to check different parts), and João stayed at home with the kids. According to MM, the two of them then went back home again and set off again with Leonor. It was when they were about to go back home yet again, that the Café lady asked if they'd phoned the police (which they hadn't) and so she did.

Both of them state that they didn't notice anything strange when they went home, and MM adds that he didn't notice that anything had been cleaned.

According to one of the GNR reports, the officer talked to Leonor, Leandro and a third person (which I assume to be MM).

II (Leandro)

Disse também a testemunha que foi à "Pastelaria Célia" com o MM por volta das 21h e que a dada altura apareceu ali o arguido AA a dizer que a CC tinha ido à pastelaria às 8h e ainda não tinha aparecido. Eles foram para casa (não achou nada de estranho na casa) e a testemunha pediu à BB para ir procurar a CC nos vizinhos (mas não sabe se ela foi efectivamente) enquanto ele foi à festa do berbigão ver se a CC por lá estaria e o MM foi dar uma volta por ali a ver se via a menor. O arguido AA ficou em casa a tomar conta dos filhos da testemunha. A testemunha ficou algum tempo na festa do berbigão mas havia muita confusão e veio embora; voltou depois à festa com a BB e o MM à procura da CC e quando estavam a regressar a casa apareceu a D. Ofélia, a saber da CC e a perguntar se já tinham chamado a GNR. Disseram-lhe que não e ela telefonou.


MM (the one who lived with them, friend or half-brother)

Chegaram à "Pastelaria ..." por volta das 21h 30m / 22h, onde beberam uma cerveja ou duas e depois chegou o arguido AA que lhes perguntou se tinham visto a CC. Dirigiram-se de imediato para casa. A casa não tinha nada estranho, estava normal, a testemunha também não notou qualquer arrumação ou limpeza. A BB disse-lhes que não sabia da CC e o II decidiu ir à festa do berbigão procurá-la, enquanto a testemunha foi dar uma volta pelo outro lado. Tornaram a ir para casa e decidiram ir de novo à festa, desta vez acompanhados da arguida BB, enquanto o AA ficava em casa com as crianças. Demoraram uma hora ou duas e antes de irem para casa foram comprar bolos para comer.

Offline Carana

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 09:37:09 PM »
This is the GNR chappy. He talked to them near the church and Leonor apparently explained that she'd sent Joana on an errand to the Café and that the last time she was seen was also near the church, whereas the witness actually said near the market, but they are presumably both in the same area.

A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 09:47:13 PM »
Yes, I think when it was said "near the church" it was just to give an idea of the locality. Celia lady said 9pm Carlos said 9.30, but according to the Appeal (giving details of the court case) Joao went to the café to delay Leandro who was due back home at 9.30 pm, so probably Celia lady was correct.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Offline Carana

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2013, 10:34:17 PM »
Yes, I think when it was said "near the church" it was just to give an idea of the locality. Celia lady said 9pm Carlos said 9.30, but according to the Appeal (giving details of the court case) Joao went to the café to delay Leandro who was due back home at 9.30 pm, so probably Celia lady was correct.

I'm not sure that he went to delay them, and I haven't seen anything stating at what time Leandro was actually expected back, although I might not be looking in the right place.


Celia lady had said Joana was there around 8:20/8:30. The two guys turned up around 1/2 hour later, so around 9 pm. João turned up around 20 mins after that, so that would put it at around 9:20 ish. Leonor turned up over an hour after they left to ask about Joana. She says something odd - that João was with her, but he'd stayed outside. The other two guys say that he stayed home.

Voltando ao dia 12, disse que meia hora depois da CC sair, chegaram à pastelaria o II e o MM. Estiveram lá cerca de 20 minutos, até que apareceu o arguido AA, que se dirigiu a eles e estiveram a conversar. A testemunha não se apercebeu de que falaram e nenhum deles lhe perguntou pela CC. Mais tarde, mais de uma hora depois deles saírem, apareceu no estabelecimento a arguida BB, a qual vinha acompanhada pelo irmão AA (que ficou à espera na rua) e que lhe perguntou pela CC, dizendo então que ela ainda não tinha chegado a casa.

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2013, 10:53:23 PM »
I'm not sure that he went to delay them, and I haven't seen anything stating at what time Leandro was actually expected back, although I might not be looking in the right place.


Celia lady had said Joana was there around 8:20/8:30. The two guys turned up around 1/2 hour later, so around 9 pm. João turned up around 20 mins after that, so that would put it at around 9:20 ish. Leonor turned up over an hour after they left to ask about Joana. She says something odd - that João was with her, but he'd stayed outside. The other two guys say that he stayed home.

Voltando ao dia 12, disse que meia hora depois da CC sair, chegaram à pastelaria o II e o MM. Estiveram lá cerca de 20 minutos, até que apareceu o arguido AA, que se dirigiu a eles e estiveram a conversar. A testemunha não se apercebeu de que falaram e nenhum deles lhe perguntou pela CC. Mais tarde, mais de uma hora depois deles saírem, apareceu no estabelecimento a arguida BB, a qual vinha acompanhada pelo irmão AA (que ficou à espera na rua) e que lhe perguntou pela CC, dizendo então que ela ainda não tinha chegado a casa.

16- That the defendant John has time to have a beer with the Leandro and Carlos, in "Pastries ... ", to delay the return of them to home; = as the appeal 2006


The prosecuting was based on Joao going over to the café to delay the return home, which was expected around 9.30pm, while Leonor cleaned up after killing the child . However in the 2006 appeal it said that they went straight away to search, so a bit of a contradiction ,somewhere there, or I missed the plot
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 11:32:17 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Offline Carana

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2013, 02:53:04 PM »
I find the assumptions totally bizarre.

What evidence is there that:

a. she got home

b. witnessed Leonor and her brother having sex on the living-room sofa (when they both knew that any other occupant could have walked in at any moment)

c. Leonor whacked her.. that traces of her on walls or anything else were found

d. there was evidence of cleaning when Leandro and MM came home

e. they hadn't tried to check with relatives / neighbours if she might have been with them

f. Leonor had mistreated Joana

g. she had been chopped up and stuffed into a small freezer which no other occupant of the house would have noticed

h. that a spot of unidentifiable human blood on the back of a small freezer drawer, which may or may not have been recent, corroborates that there had been an attempt to stuff her in it when anyone could have entered the house at any time.

Attempting to stuff her in it would have required taking out all the drawers and their contents. I'm not aware that anyone noticed empty freezer drawers, nor noticed the absence of food that may have disappeared to make room.


Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2013, 03:03:57 PM »
This is the GNR chappy. He talked to them near the church and Leonor apparently explained that she'd sent Joana on an errand to the Café and that the last time she was seen was also near the church, whereas the witness actually said near the market, but they are presumably both in the same area.

A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

A PT friend tells me that Figueira is not big enough to have a market, so I am wondering:

1)  if there was one day a week when, maybe a solitary fish van came ... or a meat van came .... and parked on the sizeable plaza where the pretty modern Figueira church stands.? And that is called the market?
or,
2)  As it was a festival day, was there a special once a year market on the church plaza?

I stayed in a small place in France where the church car park had an occasional van parked selling, I think, meat.


I think you are right, Carana.  That there is no real market in Figueira

If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Carana

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2013, 03:09:02 PM »
A PT friend tells me that Figueira is not big enough to have a market, so I am wondering:

1)  if there was one day a week when, maybe a solitary fish van came ... or a meat van came .... and parked on the sizeable plaza where the pretty modern Figueira church stands.? And that is called the market?
or,
2)  As it was a festival day, was there a special once a year market on the church plaza?

I stayed in a small place in France where the church car park had an occasional van parked selling, I think, meat.


I think you are right, Carana.  That there is no real market in Figueira

There may well be a market place near the church. Or the reference is to a small grocery shop nearby. I don't have a problem with whatever it meant... my only question concerned where was she actually seen for the last time.