Author Topic: Joana Cipriano case - forensics  (Read 12536 times)

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Online Eleanor

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2013, 03:15:43 PM »

That is a very good point, Carana.  What happened to the food in The Freezer?  No one keeps a freezer just for storing chopped up dead bodies.  Was there any frozen food in the freezer when The PJ took it away?

Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2013, 03:40:28 PM »
I find the assumptions totally bizarre.

What evidence is there that:

a. she got home

b. witnessed Leonor and her brother having sex on the living-room sofa (when they both knew that any other occupant could have walked in at any moment)

c. Leonor whacked her.. that traces of her on walls or anything else were found

d. there was evidence of cleaning when Leandro and MM came home

e. they hadn't tried to check with relatives / neighbours if she might have been with them

f. Leonor had mistreated Joana

g. she had been chopped up and stuffed into a small freezer which no other occupant of the house would have noticed

h. that a spot of unidentifiable human blood on the back of a small freezer drawer, which may or may not have been recent, corroborates that there had been an attempt to stuff her in it when anyone could have entered the house at any time.

Attempting to stuff her in it would have required taking out all the drawers and their contents. I'm not aware that anyone noticed empty freezer drawers, nor noticed the absence of food that may have disappeared to make room.

Excellent observations 8@??)(

I couldn't agree more

Also that with all the coming and going, no-one saw the blood stains, nor smelled the petrol / cleaning fluids .... and what about the smell of blood and death?   

It all sounds so phoney


ETA:
I believe that she was seen for the last time going up the main front steps to that pretty church.   Those curved steps were on her direct route.   Only two, maybe three houses, had decent views of those steps and those are immediately, or close to those steps on the eastern side of the church plaza in front of the steps.

If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2013, 03:41:45 PM »
I believe that she was seen for the last time going up the main front steps to that pretty church.   Those curved steps were on her direct route.   Only two, maybe three houses, had decent views of those steps and those are immediately, or close to those steps on the eastern side of the church plaza in front of the steps.

The plaza is approx 60 metres deep (east to west) and 50 metres wide (north to south).

Now the interesting thing about this plaza is that it has only public buildings to the North, the west and a large portion of the south.  In other words, in the evenings, most of it is not overlooked.  At the northern corner in the bulge there is what i take to be the village infant/junior school.  On careful inspection, you will see it has a sand pit, coconuts for the birds, lawns, high netting all the way round .... and if the roof is anything to go by, it has two classrooms + and entry room and a nother smaller room .  Staff and stores?

It also has a model of a ?snowman in the one window.

That corner is well treed and out of sight of anyone in their homes.  And also not on any route that many would be likely to walk or drive.  There is plenty of parking space as well.  I wonder where the brown camper van camped?


An ideal abduction spot it seems to me.


I wonder if Joana wandered that way around the church, eager to look at her (?old?) school en route home? ... And got abducted there, between the church and the school?

Assuming she was abducted, I wonder if it was a snatch abduction or a person she knew?


There is another ideal place that an abduction could possibly have taken place, but I defintely need images for that.  Might have to wait until after Xmas



Now i have to go and write my cards and letters
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2013, 06:15:31 PM »
The last witnesses to see her alive Saw her approaching the steps in the proximity of the market. The only reference to being seen near the church, was by a newspaper. Since the steps and minimarket are close to the  church and there are other minimarkets in Figueira, I think this is why it was reported as being close to the church.
 If she had taken this shortcut, it would have been before the 2010 houses were built and a lot less safe than the main route but quicker
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2013, 01:32:14 AM »
The last witnesses to see her alive Saw her approaching the steps in the proximity of the market. The only reference to being seen near the church, was by a newspaper. Since the steps and minimarket are close to the  church and there are other minimarkets in Figueira, I think this is why it was reported as being close to the church.
 If she had taken this shortcut, it would have been before the 2010 houses were built and a lot less safe than the main route but quicker
anna, I dont think there is a market in Figueira.  No mention of it on the internet  .... and as I said in an earlier post a PT friend of mine says that such a small place would not have a market.  Maybe there was a special fiesta market, but one would expect that to have been right at the southern edge of the village where the main cockle festival was taking place.

Also maybe there was a, say, meat or fish van parked on the church plaza once a week?  But from what I am told it seems unlikely that there would have been a proper market there. 

Mexilhoeira Grande, a much bigger place is only 3/4 mile away (C.F.).  If there were a market then it would more likely be there.  IIRC tbere is a bus service linking the two places.  Also only 4 miles from the big town of Portimao with bus  and rail links.  Lagos is not much further away, also linked.
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2013, 12:02:37 PM »
anna, I dont think there is a market in Figueira.  No mention of it on the internet  .... and as I said in an earlier post a PT friend of mine says that such a small place would not have a market.  Maybe there was a special fiesta market, but one would expect that to have been right at the southern edge of the village where the main cockle festival was taking place.

Also maybe there was a, say, meat or fish van parked on the church plaza once a week?  But from what I am told it seems unlikely that there would have been a proper market there. 

Mexilhoeira Grande, a much bigger place is only 3/4 mile away (C.F.).  If there were a market then it would more likely be there.  IIRC tbere is a bus service linking the two places.  Also only 4 miles from the big town of Portimao with bus  and rail links.  Lagos is not much further away, also linked.

If you do a google map search on Rua de 25 abril 28 Figueira 8500-132 , it will take you to the pastelaria that Joana went to, then click on "Nearby" and type "Mercado" , it will take you to the shop and greengrocers across the road. Then go round the corner of the greengrocer's and you will see the steps, that were in the process of being broken up in the 2010 map. If you check the quickest route home , it would be that route. They are building houses behind the stairs in 2010, but it would probably be bare except for trees on her way home as the earlier aerial view will show you.
 There is no mention anywhere that I can see, of her going up the church steps. The witnesses saw her going towards the steps in the proximity of the Mercado.
A newspaper said she was last seen near the church. I think this was probably for area reference only.
I have wondered why there was no witnesses to her walking home along the main road, but now know that if she used the back shortcut, she wouldn't be seen.............and wasn't!
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2013, 11:50:52 PM »
If you do a google map search on Rua de 25 abril 28 Figueira 8500-132 , it will take you to the pastelaria that Joana went to, then click on "Nearby" and type "Mercado" , it will take you to the shop and greengrocers across the road. Then go round the corner of the greengrocer's and you will see the steps, that were in the process of being broken up in the 2010 map. If you check the quickest route home , it would be that route. They are building houses behind the stairs in 2010, but it would probably be bare except for trees on her way home as the earlier aerial view will show you.
 There is no mention anywhere that I can see, of her going up the church steps. The witnesses saw her going towards the steps in the proximity of the Mercado.
A newspaper said she was last seen near the church. I think this was probably for area reference only.
I have wondered why there was no witnesses to her walking home along the main road, but now know that if she used the back shortcut, she wouldn't be seen.............and wasn't!
That's interesting Anna, but I will be honest with you.  Maybe I am looking at the wrong bit, but the land where I think you are saying the steps are broken up appears virtually horizontal to me. 

I used to teach building and landscape perspective and the land on which the shop and the bungalow stand appear pretty flat and horizontal, front to back, to me.  I dont understand what the breeze block structure is all about, which seems to slope oddly ... and that throws the eye and mental cognizance imo.

Additionally I wonder whether she would walk home after dark along what appear to be unlit pathways.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 11:53:28 PM by sadie »
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 11:37:33 AM »
Hi Sadie,
I think you may have the wrong bearing. Yes it would be darkish, but summer at 8.30pm, I'm not sure.
 It does however fit in with the Mercado, café and steps. maybe there was lights somewhere and she was seen by witnesses, so who knows. Sunset was at 7.50 pm that day, so it would be getting dark

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Rua+25+de+Abril&daddr=Rua+Martim+Afonso+Pacheco+Gracias+Arquitecto&hl=en&ll=37.165032,-8.601968&spn=0.002552,0.005284&sll=37.164545,-8.602418&sspn=0.002535,0.005284&geocode=FXQYNwIdB8B8_w%3BFbUTNwIdkLh8_w&t=h&dirflg=w&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=18&z=18

 Suggested routes


350 m, 4 mins
Rua 25 de Abril and Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto

==================

Walking directions to Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto

Rua 25 de Abril

 1. Head south on Rua 25 de Abril   
 
23 m

 2. Turn right toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto     
 
91 m
 
 3. Turn left toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto   
 
160 m

 4. Turn right onto Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto   
 
7 m
 

Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto
 



« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 04:16:26 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
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Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2013, 12:39:04 AM »
Hi Sadie,
I think you may have the wrong bearing. Yes it would be darkish, but summer at 8.30pm, I'm not sure.
 It does however fit in with the Mercado, café and steps. maybe there was lights somewhere and she was seen by witnesses, so who knows. Sunset was at 7.50 pm that day, so it would be getting dark

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Rua+25+de+Abril&daddr=Rua+Martim+Afonso+Pacheco+Gracias+Arquitecto&hl=en&ll=37.165032,-8.601968&spn=0.002552,0.005284&sll=37.164545,-8.602418&sspn=0.002535,0.005284&geocode=FXQYNwIdB8B8_w%3BFbUTNwIdkLh8_w&t=h&dirflg=w&mra=mift&mrsp=0&sz=18&z=18

 Suggested routes


350 m, 4 mins
Rua 25 de Abril and Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto

==================

Walking directions to Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto

Rua 25 de Abril

 1. Head south on Rua 25 de Abril   
 
23 m

 2. Turn right toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto     
 
91 m
 
 3. Turn left toward Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto   
 
160 m

 4. Turn right onto Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto   
 
7 m
 

Rua Martim Afonso Pacheco Gracias Arquitecto

You have done a lot of useful work anna.

Three things tho:

1)  Maybe i am not looking in the correct place but, I cant see the steps you mention.  Are you sure that you are not mixing up the lines where seperate slabs of concrete meet with other slabs of concrete with steps?

2)  Where you show the marker for home, it is at the front of the house.  Joana and family lived in what appears to have been "a built on" block at the rear. 
Having had a good look at the front of the house and the plan, I am not at all sure that Joana could get to her home via that front entrance, where your marker is.   I think the whole width of the front view of that house is one residence, maybe two, but seemingly no way into Joanas home via the front.
If she had to take a further walk along Rua Martim Alfonso Pacheco Garcia Arquitecto in an easterly direction, then turn right and right again, she would reach the front of her home by road.  But it would add a further 210 metres to her journey.

That makes a total of 350 +210 = 560 metres. 


3)   It has been said that a neighbour smoking spotted her going up the church steps.  If she was seen going up those steps it is on a more likely route IMO for her to be returning home.  Also it was reported somewhere that when she was at the church she had 200  metres to go on her journey.  That ties up with the route that John shows.  The total distance then is about 400 - 420 metres, as stated by the PJ.



Nightfall
I dont know if I am right in this but I have the impression that it falls dark about 10-15 minutes after sunset in the UK, so assuming that the times are acccurate, it seems that Joana left home at dusk.   It is doubtful that the times were absolutely accurate tho


Almost certainly she came home in the dark. 

Plenty of opportunity to abduct her along the route you suggest anna.

Opportunity to abduct her at the church too if she decided to go via the northern route by the ?school past it, as mentioned in an earlier post

There is a third place where an abduction could likely have taken place, but it needs images.

Later maybe.



I wonder where that brown and cream camper van was parked?  The one that had been parked for several days but vanished when Joana vanished ... and re-appeared abandoned in nearby PdL ?


If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 02:07:59 PM »
Hi Sadie,
             You are correct The last map showed a road that was in front of the road on which stood the house. http://goo.gl/maps/6PkpC

I, however on the map on my last post, showed a road with railings which when they came to an end were much lower than the house on that street, so It is possible a child could walk down there to her house at the back.
The fastest route direct to her door being  http://goo.gl/maps/nEDXA  Still a rather unsafe route for a child.

I believe the stairs were located near the Mercado ( single supermarket/greengrocers/ shop) The map is 6 years old and it is the only access to the road behind that is close to the Mercado.
I think the stairs may have gone up then down ,at a time when the side ground area was raised.
The area I suspect to have been stairs also has a warning sign on it, as it is being dismantled, to make way for a road.

From 2006 Appeal
Witness statement:
The witness AA3 neighbour, reported that on 12 September, by 8h 30m / 8h 40m, was the window of his house, smoking, when he saw  Joana, with a bag in hand, go up the stairs in the proximity of the market, towards her house. The witness said that in that place there was no movement, nor saw cars, nor heard any cry, although he stayed at the window for some time longer. He said, that there was the "Feast of Cockles", which occurred far from that location and for that reason there was nobody there.

The witness AA4  ? said he had seen the Joana on the night, but could not specify the hours.


A testemunha AA3, relatou que no dia 12 de Setembro, pelas 8h 30m / 8h 40m, estava a janela de sua casa, a fumar, quando viu a CC, com um saco na mão, a subir as escadas na proximidade do mercado, em direcção a casa. A testemunha disse que naquele local não havia movimento, não viu carros, nem ouviu qualquer grito, embora se tenha mantido à janela durante mais algum tempo. Referiu que decorria a "Festa do Berbigão", mas ocorria longe daquele local e por ali não havia ninguém.

A testemunha AA4 disse ter visto a CC nessa noite, mas não conseguiu precisar as horas.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


I have read and downloaded all the CM news from the Joana case and don't know anything about a camper van, which I am sure you must have read somewhere else. I would love a link to this new (to me) information.

   I hope you managed to get all your cards done, I was late, because I had to wait for my granddaughter to do them. Done now, so I can stop worrying  ?{)(**



« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 02:34:02 PM by anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Carana

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2013, 03:15:04 PM »
I pointed out to you that you overlooked what was actually said in the report about blood being found in several places in the freezer which you felt was ok to describe as a speck of blood...you ignored this observation/comment of mine and dashed off to talk about whose blood it was...thats all....

According the PJ coordinator, there was only one speck of unidentified blood. And no indication as to when it may have been deposited. Nor can I find any logical explanation as to why an unidentified, undated, speck of blood would indicate that there had even been an attempt to stuff her in a small family freezer.

A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que (....) A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.

Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2013, 12:09:24 AM »
According the PJ coordinator, there was only one speck of unidentified blood. And no indication as to when it may have been deposited. Nor can I find any logical explanation as to why an unidentified, undated, speck of blood would indicate that there had even been an attempt to stuff her in a small family freezer.

A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que (....) A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.
8@??)( Brilliant observations Carana
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2013, 12:22:15 AM »
Hi Sadie,
             You are correct The last map showed a road that was in front of the road on which stood the house. http://goo.gl/maps/6PkpC

I, however on the map on my last post, showed a road with railings which when they came to an end were much lower than the house on that street, so It is possible a child could walk down there to her house at the back.
The fastest route direct to her door being  http://goo.gl/maps/nEDXA  Still a rather unsafe route for a child.

I believe the stairs were located near the Mercado ( single supermarket/greengrocers/ shop) The map is 6 years old and it is the only access to the road behind that is close to the Mercado.
I think the stairs may have gone up then down ,at a time when the side ground area was raised.
The area I suspect to have been stairs also has a warning sign on it, as it is being dismantled, to make way for a road.

From 2006 Appeal
Witness statement:
The witness AA3 neighbour, reported that on 12 September, by 8h 30m / 8h 40m, was the window of his house, smoking, when he saw  Joana, with a bag in hand, go up the stairs in the proximity of the market, towards her house. The witness said that in that place there was no movement, nor saw cars, nor heard any cry, although he stayed at the window for some time longer. He said, that there was the "Feast of Cockles", which occurred far from that location and for that reason there was nobody there.

The witness AA4  ? said he had seen the Joana on the night, but could not specify the hours.


A testemunha AA3, relatou que no dia 12 de Setembro, pelas 8h 30m / 8h 40m, estava a janela de sua casa, a fumar, quando viu a CC, com um saco na mão, a subir as escadas na proximidade do mercado, em direcção a casa. A testemunha disse que naquele local não havia movimento, não viu carros, nem ouviu qualquer grito, embora se tenha mantido à janela durante mais algum tempo. Referiu que decorria a "Festa do Berbigão", mas ocorria longe daquele local e por ali não havia ninguém.

A testemunha AA4 disse ter visto a CC nessa noite, mas não conseguiu precisar as horas.
http://www.dgsi.pt/jstj.nsf/954f0ce6ad9dd8b980256b5f003fa814/bfaf1cea93ab75fb8025716200388d89?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,cipriano


I have read and downloaded all the CM news from the Joana case and don't know anything about a camper van, which I am sure you must have read somewhere else. I would love a link to this new (to me) information.

   I hope you managed to get all your cards done, I was late, because I had to wait for my granddaughter to do them. Done now, so I can stop worrying  ?{)(**
anna, this requires a thought out response and will take time, so hopefully after Christmas I will find that time.

Yep cards completed in time for second class mail  Yippee !

Still fighting the clock tho because I am cooking the meal, and there is loads of preparation.  Haven't wrapped any pressies yet, ... one or two yet to buy ... and somehow need to find the time to deliver. 

Jeez, I am going to give Christmas a miss next year.
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Anna

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2013, 09:21:54 AM »
According the PJ coordinator, there was only one speck of unidentified blood. And no indication as to when it may have been deposited. Nor can I find any logical explanation as to why an unidentified, undated, speck of blood would indicate that there had even been an attempt to stuff her in a small family freezer.

A testemunha CC3 , coordenador de investigação criminal da P.J., declarou que (....) A testemunha confirmou também o auto de busca e apreensão junto aos autos de fls. 578 a 580 (arca frigorífica) e que no interior da arca foi recolhido um vestígio hemático da espécie humana, realçando que este vestígio de sangue humano foi recolhido no interior da gaveta, concretamente no painel de trás da segunda gaveta da arca.


There is no logical explanation carana.


“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline sadie

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Re: Joana Cipriano case - forensics
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2013, 11:14:21 AM »
Agreed
No logical explanation how they came to that conclusion with just one spec of unidentified, undated blood.



But we have it from Amarals theories, dont we?  Amaral who has decided that Madeleine died in 5A.  Another of his theories.

Amaral who has a criminal conviction for perjury, lies, and apparantly his mate Cristavao, or so I believe.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Christavao is allegedly awaiting trial on seven rather nasty charges... but, of course, is innocent until proven guilty.  Seven charges  >@@(*&)



Yep, I believe it wholeheartedly.  How about you ? 
That spec of unidentified, undated, blood is derfinitely proof that Joanas body was crammed in that tiny freezer, doncha think?.
 
Amarals and Cristavaos theory "proved" it, didn't it?  Now we obviously have every reason to trust them, dont we ?  8(0(* 8)-)))

Maybe a bit of torture helped it along too?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 09:16:09 AM by sadie »
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."