Author Topic: Leonor Cipriano, her confession and subsequent silence in the killing of her daughter Joana.  (Read 20556 times)

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Offline Wonderfulspam

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Amazing isn't it, only Mccann supporters believe Joana was abducted, sadie has her doubts though, but she won't say what else she thinks might have happened to her.




Offline Anna

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Timeline
Joan left home around 8 h pm ???
Arrived at Celia around 8h 20pm / 8h 30pm
After shopping left Celia around 8h.30Pm / 8h.35pm
Last time Seen, in proximity to market going to stairs that led to her home 8h.30PM / 8h 40pm
Earliest possible to get home 8.35pm to 8.40
(I think these are the same witnesses who saw her approaching market So must be near market/steps and opp side of road)

Leandro and pal in Celias at around 9 .00PM according
to Celia
Joa leaves the house 9.10/9.15
Joao arrives at Celias at about 9. 20PM according to celia lady
They all go home immediately 9. 25pm according to Leandro
Leandro and mate go to search approx 10.00 pm

Leona and Joao go to Celia around 10. 30PM according to celia
leaving at approx 11.pm to go home and according to Celia
John goes home to sit with babies
Leandro and mate return to check and Leonora joins them 11 pm ish
Celia goes to their home to see if joana is back 12mn
Leonor, Leandro and pal are just returning 12 mn and decide to go search some more with Celia at 12.30 ish
Leonor and Joao’s brother, is around as well… At Celia, the church where Leonor saw GNR,cockle feast and their home afterwards I believe
Leonor and johns brother sees them all around 11.30
Celia helps search and phones police approx 12.30/40
Leonor informs GNR near the church. who tells her to report it tomorrow

==============================================
If Joana got home earliest 8.35 the evil deed would be done 9.15 latest, this includes getting cleaned and changed before Joao left for celias 9.15 latest.
Or Joana got home 8.40/5 and still would be 9.15 latest
unless Carlos’s times were correct and Celia’s and witnesses were wrong of course as there was a 30 min difference

30 to 35 mins to argue with the child, kill her, decide what to do, and argue with each other, conceal the body, clean the walls and floors and get washed and changed , not to mention laundry and clothing concealment. Nah !
Even an extra 30 mins wouldn’t convince me
And when the men got back from Celia at 9.25/35 , Leandro and Carlos noticed nothing different about the house clean wise, which would have, freshly washed floors, surely?

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8.35/8.40 to 8.40/8.45 trying to pull the child back and argue
8.40/8.45 to 8.50/8.55 hitting the child until she fell lifeless
8.50/8.55 to 9.00/9.05 Argue with each other and decide what to do
9.00/9.05 to 9.10/9.15 Conceal Body
9.10/9.15 to 9.15/9.20 Washed and changed
These are the shortest times that I believe possible
Now Joao has to leave at 9.15 the latest, to be at celia for 9.20
Leonor is left to wash, change, clean the walls, the floors and conceal bloody laundry before the men return at 9.30 ?????????????



When was all the really macabre chopping stuff suppose to happen ??????????????????
OK I have checked back.....................According to 2006 appeal it was when Joao went back to the house at 9.30 ish, after waylaying Leandro and Carlos who then supposedly had gone searching ???????

but I believe (according to statements) that they all went home first and found the home as normal.then leandro and pal went searching after 10 when Joao and  Leonor, went to Celia searching for Joana as statement, then Leonor went searching with Leandro and co until midnight and went out searching again with Celia.
This cant be right !!! Can it????
There were people in and out all night and the landlady who lives upstairs,says that she can even hear them in the bathroom but, heard no disturbance that night.



“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Wonderfulspam

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It takes complete stupidy or some serious willfull ignorance to believe he'd say he had chopped her up, when he hadn't.

Offline John

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There was more than enough time to murder Joana and conceal her small body in the waste ground out back.  Also time for Leonor to do an initial clean up of blood spatter while João went to Celias on the pretence of looking for Joana.  This was the story that Leonor originally told detectives.  It was a simple matter then in the dead of night to move her remains and dispose of them.

Wasn't it the next day that Leonor bought the chemicals which she used to cleanse the house of any traces of what they had done.  Unfortunately for her she missed the tiniest trace of blood on the wall by the outside door and on a slipper hidden under the settee.  Remind me, when was it Leonor and João were seen carrying something away from the house in a bag?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 03:24:37 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Anna

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There was more than enough time to murder Joana and conceal her small body in the waste ground out back.  Also time for Leonor to do an initial clean up of blood spatter while João went to Celias on the pretence of looking for Joana.  This was the story that Leonor originally told detectives.  It was a simple matter then in the dead of night to move her remains and dispose of them.

Wasn't it the next day that Leonor bought the chemicals which she used to cleanse the house of any traces of what they had done.  Unfortunately for her she missed the tiniest trace of blood on the wall by the outside door and on a slipper hidden under the settee.  Remind me, when was it Leonor and João were seen carrying something away from the house in a bag?

One must believe, what one believes. I have simply put together the lack of evidence that Leonor killed Joana and can find nothing to prove she did. Although I obviosly do not know what happened to the child.
Leonor bought cleaning chemicals, IIRC on the 18th at the instruction of her mother in law, who cleaned the house of mites, which were common. There was no DNA of Joana found anywhere.
The slipper is a statement made by Leandr's sister , who along with Leandro's mother and brothers were considered suspects....and then it all changed after the semen was found on undies ............Which were never tested or used in evidence. The carrier bag was just that..a carrier bag on the day after Joana disappeared and Joao also disappeared the day after and was found in a car, with a carrier bag of clothes.
I'm sure you have already read all this. I lost my dossier when my computer went down and I await the hard drive being put in another, so until then John I am sorry, but I can only go by memory.
 This old laptop keeps overheating and I just hope it will not blow up too soon
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Wonderfulspam

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It takes complete stupidy or some serious willfull ignorance to believe he'd say he had chopped her up, when he hadn't.

Offline Anna

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If you have decided and believe that you already know what happened to these children, why do you persist in trying to deter others from researching and discussing the evidence, or lack of evidence, concerning, the McCann case and Cipriano?
What do you hope to achieve from your arguments  about a case, that you have obviously not researched, but have made your mind up  about anyway?
It’s all a bit pointless in my mind unless it is meant to cause a heated argument………………I know some people are like that. Strange!

As for Joao…….What do you think would eventually force him to confess??????????

Leonor was forced to confess!

Stupidity and ignorance should have been directed at those who believe what they say happened, must be what happened and is the only possibility………..without a shred of evidence and find it unnecessary to research and find the possibilities of truth and lies, as others are trying to do.

Do you believe anything? You didn’t believe Chloe was abducted either IIRC
Do not expect any further response to your posts as you are on Ignore list
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Wonderfulspam

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If you have decided and believe that you already know what happened to these children, why do you persist in trying to deter others from researching and discussing the evidence, or lack of evidence, concerning, the McCann case and Cipriano?
What do you hope to achieve from your arguments  about a case, that you have obviously not researched, but have made your mind up  about anyway?
It’s all a bit pointless in my mind unless it is meant to cause a heated argument………………I know some people are like that. Strange!

As for Joao…….What do you think would eventually force him to confess??????????

Leonor was forced to confess!

Stupidity and ignorance should have been directed at those who believe what they say happened, must be what happened and is the only possibility………..without a shred of evidence and find it unnecessary to research and find the possibilities of truth and lies, as others are trying to do.

Do you believe anything? You didn’t believe Chloe was abducted either IIRC
Do not expect any further response to your posts as you are on Ignore list

She's dead they murdered her, he chopped her into bits.

Joao confessed without a finger being laid on him, so did Leonor.

Good luck looking for Joana yeah, you might find pieces of her somewhere if you keep searching for long enough.

Offline sadie

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Amazing isn't it, only Mccann supporters believe Joana was abducted, sadie has her doubts though, but she won't say what else she thinks might have happened to her.

I beg your pardon, Spammy.

I can tell you that sadie strongly believes that Joana was abducted and has constantly said that,  Sadie has NEVER said anythiing else

Do not put words in my mouth.  This is the second time in the past week that people on here have put words in my mouth.  Words that I did not say.  Words that are the opposite to my thoughts.

Just stop it.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 11:16:23 PM by sadie »
If you want to know the real facts read :  http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39076140/Main%20Page

Hitler is credited with saying "Tell a big enough lie, tell it often enough, and it becomes the truth.
= "Propaganda personified."

Offline Wonderfulspam

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I beg your pardon, Spammy.

Sadie strongly believes that Joana was abducted and has NEVER said anythiing else

Do not put words in my mouth.  This is the second time in the past week that people on here have put words in my mouth.  Words that I did not say.  Words that are the opposite to my thoughts.

Just stop it.

You said she was almost certainly abducted.

And Belief = Uncertainty

You have never explained what else you think might have happened to her, other than abduction.

What else might have happened to her, do you think ?

Offline Wonderfulspam

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She was murdered by her mother & uncle & chopped into bits.

That, sadly, is what happened to Joana.

Offline davel

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Now you are making it up Sadie.  Leonor was living at home each night up until her arrest and initial confession.  Had there been any coercion we would have certainly heard about it.

Why ever not, he liked dishing it out.   The PJ knew only too well that there was only one language known to João Cipriano,  the language of violence.

so you expect us to believe that Leonor confessed to the murder but not to where she hid the body...she confessed to the murder having been beaten but couldn't tell them where the body was because she didn't know
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard

Neither the McCanns nor their friend are persons of interest or suspects

If civil questions are being asked can we have the courtesy to provide civil answers.

Offline Carana

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so you expect us to believe that Leonor confessed to the murder but not to where she hid the body...she confessed to the murder having been beaten but couldn't tell them where the body was because she didn't know

I go with the evidence. In this case, the so-called evidence is so flimsy, I really don't think that either of them have a clue what happened to her.

I can't see it ever even getting to court in the UK or the US. In Italy, perhaps.

Offline Carana

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(...)    Compliant false confessions: Finally, the largest category of false confessions occurs when (even though the confessor knows he or she is innocent) they break down and give a confession to escape the interrogation process itself. [Kassin says the boys confessing to raping the Central Park Jogger are an example of this sort of confession. They were tried, found guilty in 1990 and imprisoned until the actual rapist confessed in 2002 and DNA evidence showed him to be the real perpetrator.]

But what could possibly happen in the interrogation process that would lead one to the point of confessing to, in many cases, heinous crimes? While there are certainly personality variables that play into false confessions, most people in the legal system (judges, attorneys and jurors) under-estimate the power of the situational forces acting upon police suspects. Even “normal” people without impairments that reduce resilience (like mental illness) can be worn down by an interrogation and give false confessions (Davis & Leo, 2012).

What an innocent (and many guilty) interrogation subject wants to do is to explain their innocence, and be reassured that their explanation is valid. The “wearing down process” in interrogation thwarts such attempts on the detainee’s part. Instead, the interrogation focuses on the detainee’s wish to be understood, but from the perspective of guilt: how they want to be seen as cooperative, how they want to share with the interrogator a less culpable sense that the detainee must have been caught up in the moment and behaved atypically. As part of this process, the interrogator reassures them that they will be seen as a better person if they cooperate, that the legal outcome could be improved if they confess, or tells the detainee that co-perpetrators, if any, are also being interrogated and that he or she may want to assign blame to them before they assign it to the detainee (Davis & Leo, 2012).
“They never even gave him a psych evaluation. Like they just kept battering him in the interrogation room and just on and on and on. I mean anybody is going to be mentally broke down or emotionally broken down after so long.”—Mock juror

If the interrogation process continues without food, drink or sleep, “a perfect storm of glucose depleting stress, fatigue and sleep deprivation” occurs. Even if offered food or drink, a detainee may be too anxious or overwhelmed to accept. This results in poor decision-making, cognitive decline and over-reactivity to stress (Davis & Leo, 2012). This experience [shared by detainees and soldiers] has been studied in combat situations and is also described as the “fog of war”.

The more depleted the detainee becomes, the less compelling the arguments of the interrogator need to be in order to persuade. Further, as they become more depleted, their ability to perceive manipulation by interrogators also declines. In this distorted environment, detainees are more likely to blindly see what the authorities are saying as a simple reality from which there is no escape (Wentzel, Tomczak & Herrmann, 2010).

Without a clear-headed act of will (which is undermined by the stress and circumstances of interrogation), the easiest path for a detainee is to do or say whatever must be said to make the interrogation stop (Davis & Leo, 2012).

Other researchers refer to the state of mind during a difficult interrogation as “interrogation myopia” (Scherr & Madon, 2011). When under the stress of the interrogation, all the detainee can “see” is the short-term situation in which they feel trapped. Their decisions are thus driven in-the-moment and not by their long-term interests. In academic research, when participants are falsely accused of having engaged in cheating–their ability to understand Miranda warnings was significantly lower than those not accused of cheating. Being falsely accused, which happens during the interrogation of those who falsely confess, causes tremendous stress and interferes with comprehension of the warnings meant to protect the innocent. The detainee simply doesn’t “hear” or understand the words being said to them. It all seems unreal since they know they are innocent and a horrible mistake is occurring.

Additionally, the expectation of a lengthy interrogation has been found to exacerbate the vulnerability of the detainee to make short-sighted decisions about confessing falsely to simply avoid the ongoing (and seemingly never-going-to-end) interrogation (Madon, Yang, Smalarz, Guyll & Scherr, 2012). This short-sightedness is thought to be particularly likely among innocent detainees as well as those with psychological or cognitive vulnerabilities. The innocent presume their innocence will prevail and that a false confession will be proven false in the long run and, in the short run, the interrogation will end. Those with psychological or cognitive vulnerabilities tend to be impulsive and that can also lead to a false confession due to the pressures felt in the interrogation room.

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2012/11/only-the-guilty-would-confess-to-crimes%E2%80%A8-understanding-the-mystery-of-false-confessions/