Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.  (Read 9865 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2014, 09:57:55 PM »
Clutching at straws has always best described for me those who offer excuses on behalf of Jeremy.

What I don't understand is their motivation for doing it.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2014, 01:11:43 PM »
My response exceeded the length permitted so I had to break it up into 2 posts. Here is the remainder:

Scipio: Jeremy made sure he accounted for a number of things with his story that he left the gun there:

1) provided a seemingly innocent explanation as to why his prints would be found on the gun and some of the bullet casings

He was a farmer's son and had a legitimate right to handle the weapon.  In fact NB and JB made the purchase jointly.

2) said the scope and moderator had not been attached when he left it there to try to dispute that the moderator was used because he was well aware Sheila could not have killed herself with the moderator attached


Maybe he didn’t notice it.  Maybe he figured they would not test it so who cares.  Maybe he figured whatever was on it would not reveal anything.  He sure didn’t think the pain would be tied to the underneath of the mantle. Criminals don’t think of everything that is how they get caught.  Why did he leave his prints on the gun?

 He told police he left the gun out without a moderator or scope and figured they would thus not look for one and he was right they didn’t.  He didn’t expect the silencer to be tied by paint or blood.  He put it away because if she had used a silencer she could not have committed suicide. When he staged her body he surely realized that. Your suggestion she put it away after using it on the others is simply ridiculous.

The average person doesn’t know how to charge a semi-automatic rifle or to even know that you need to charge it in order to fire.  They think you just slap in a magazine and can shoot. Because I am military trained I load my AR-15 by pulling back the charging handle, press down the bolt catch and push the charging handle forward.  I keep my weapon that way. When I am ready I simply slap in a magazine put the bolt catch, switch the safety off and it is ready to fire.  The bolt catch is a button on the left side. Someone I was at the range with saw me load a mag and switch off the safety but didn’t see me push the bolt catch because it was such a subtle move and is near the safety. He wanted to try it after I expended a magazine.  So I switched the safety on, ejected the magazine and handed him the weapon and a fresh magazine. He loaded the magazine in and tried to fire but it would not shoot.  He then saw the safety was on so he released it and tried to fire.  I was laughing and he kept looking to see if there was another safety or what was wrong.  Eventually I showed him how to chamber a round.  You keep talking about blowback.  Blowback occurs after the first bullet is fired. It ejects the spent shell and loads a new round into the chamber.  The first round must be loaded manually.

With the exception of Jeremy, family and friends insisted that Sheila never fired any guns before and had no interest in them.  Jeremy initially told police she had fired all guns in the house.  At trial though he didn’t want to be proven a liar (because the people on the farm would have testified he was lying about her going shooting with him because they would have seen it if it had happened) so he conceded she had not fired any weapons as an adult.  He maintained that when children she went target shooting with him so she did in fact fire a gun before.  Since many of them were not around when they were children they could not refute his claims and prove him a liar.  He felt saying she shot as a child was better than nothing.  He didn’t say she fired a semi-auto though and they didn’t have the murder weapon or any of the other weapons in the house at the time of the murders when she was a child so she had not fired any of them. 

We are supposed to believe that she went target shooting a few times when a child and this makes her knowledgeable with all guns?  Even if true she did shoot as a child (which could be a lie) to go more than a decade without shooting and expect her to remember  everything she learned would be a stretch.  Worse yet though, that means at most she would remembered how to use the weapon she fired as a child not mean she knows how to use other weapons.  There is a learning curve.  Also if you don’t go to the range for  along time your accuracy suffers you have to adjust.  In the middle of a crazy episode she not only supposedly figured out perfectly how to load and operate it she didn’t miss a shot. Give me a break.           


Nails are made of keratin - one of the strongest biological materials.  I have manicured nails of some 0.5cm in length.  They rarely break or split despite engaging in a wide range of domestic chores and recreational activities    All this stuff about nails only ever comes from men.  Too many men involved in the case eg police, scientists, legal etc.  Not enough women.

I hear enough complaints about fingernails breaking over minor things.  A vicious struggle with a strong 6’4’ guy that is so severe it results in chairs upside down and the kinds of wounds he suffered would result in some damage. The stock broke that was how intense it was and there were sharp edges on the rifle. Those sharp edges would have done something to her hands. That is one of the reasons they thing the killer used gloves though they didn’t inspect Jeremy for injuries so he could have had some abrasions for all we know.

There was 1 K9 unit present on the scene but his job was to potentially take down the shooter to enable police to subdue the shooter while the dog was biting the shooter.  There are in fact dogs trained to locate firearms but there is no such thing as a dog to go sniff people to see if they fired weapons.  The main use of detection dogs though is for explosive detection and drugs.  Dogs cross trained are usually not very effective they give too many false positives.  Thus if you do want a dog to locate firearms they need to be trained for that exclusively to be effective. No court has accepted being sniffed by a dog as proof they fired a weapon they are used to find physical evidence.  Jeremy had plenty of time to wash up anyway but the claim that a dog on the scene was taken to over to him to sniff him is false.

Obviously he did think it as all criminals think they can.  Luckily most criminals like hism are stupid so end up getting caught. He thought that placing the gun in her hands and putting her handprints on it would be enough.  If not for a few police actually deciding to do a more in depth investigation he might have gotten away with it despite a complete lack of evidence that Sheila fired a weapon.   

Why would she shower and change her clothes?  Where were these other clothes placed? The narrative presented by JB is that she was having a crazy episode.  You are presented the case where she was cold and calculated even going so far as to clean herself off of evidence which suggests that instead of committing suicide she planned to escape but only decided to commit suicide after police arrived.  This completely contradicts her state of mind that JB claims Nevill described.  If she were not crazy why would she kill her children and father?  The claim it was because he wanted the father to take the kids for a while is not convincing. The kids were given up in the past when she went for treatment without incident. Why would she decide they were better off dead and the family deserved to die?  Her father in particular was taking care of the kids and her.  If she were in her rational mind she would not kill her kids or parents which is why JB claimed she did it during the course of a crazy episode.

And yes my posts are long and thorough that is what happens when you are trained in history, law and military art.  You touch upon everything imaginable because detail matters though so does the broad picture. 

Those out to deceive often will try to keep issues separate and to look at one thing all alone then another all alone and so forth and in this manner they try to ignore the complete picture because the totality of the evidence and circumstances sinks them.

Scipio does the fact that the system has advised you as follows tell you anything?

"My response exceeded the length permitted so I had to break it up into 2 posts"

The fact you post chapter and verse does not make your posts more credible.  May I ask for the sake of brevity that where possible you keep to the title of the thread.  Thank you.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2014, 05:06:44 PM »
Scipio does the fact that the system has advised you as follows tell you anything?

"My response exceeded the length permitted so I had to break it up into 2 posts"

The fact you post chapter and verse does not make your posts more credible.  May I ask for the sake of brevity that where possible you keep to the title of the thread.  Thank you.

The fact I rebutted every one of your claims but you could not rebut any of mine means you lost the debate.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2014, 05:19:48 PM »
what i dont undertsand is .if bamber says the enzimes inside the silencer came from animals.why would he be so close to an animal for the enzimes to get into the sillencer.i know a sillencer lets you get close but not that close.how close do you need to be???to kill a rabit.to close and it doesnt need to hear you it could see you. 8)-))) 8)-))) 8)-)))

There are 2 possibilites that are polar opposites. 1) the person was a sadist and enjoyed shooting something at point blank range after it was already disabeled or dead.  2) something was wounded but still alive and the person decided to put the animal out of its misery by shooting at point blank range. Other peopel used the gun than jeremy so if either of these was the case it could have been any of them who did it. 

There is of course a third possibility. Someone cleaning the silencer had animal blood on his hands, decided to clean the silencer so disassembled it and got the blood on one of the parts or put the parts on something where there was animal blood. Aside from picking up the dead carcasses and getting full of animal blood in that manner I don't know if they ate animals they killed (as opposed to buying meat in a grocery store) which is another reason animal blood could have been around the place.     
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2014, 10:09:34 PM »
The fact I rebutted every one of your claims but you could not rebut any of mine means you lost the debate.

Check back on my posts and I think you will find I have already rebutted all your posts  ?>)()<

Perhaps when JB's case is referred to CoA the Crown will appoint you  @)(++(*
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2014, 10:56:09 PM »
Suppressor issues:

I. Paint

Scratches were made to the underneath of a shelf consistent with scratches that would be made by the suppressor if the suppressor had been attached the gun and 2 people struggled over control of it and it scratched against the bottom of the shelf. The scratches were not straight they would have been made by swaying. Paint found on or in the supressor matched the paint on the shelf.  If had the same layers of paint. Police inspectied the scene to see where the paint could have come from and the only place scratched up was the shelf near where a struggle was known to have occurred.

Claim on appeal: an photograph expert claims that he analyzed photos taken in August 1985 which reveal there was no damage to the shelf and that the damage thus had to have been made after the murders to frame Jeremy.

Result: The photos the expert relied upon did not show the underneath of the shelf which is where the damage was.  They were shots of the entire room thus did not show the shelf in any detail.  It was necessary to take a close up of the area in order to capture the scratches.  Therefore the fact the photos were not detailed enough to detect the scratches doesn’t prove they were not present when these photos were taken. Therefore these photos fail to prove the scratches were not present when police entered the scene. 

II. Blood

When the suppressor was originally tested a considerable amount of blood was removed from the suppressor.  Not all of this blood was tested though to determine the blood type. A swab of the upper portion of the first 4 baffle plates was tested.   A flake of blood found around the first few plates was also removed and tested.
Prior to trial the defense consulted with the forensics examiner over his blood tests and results and also independently tested the suppressor but it was after the police already had removed the blood evidence.  The first 8 baffles tested positive for the presence of blood.  He attributed this to the fact the blood had been removed previously and his was just the remnants that had not been cleaned off.  The forensics examiner also only found evidence of blood on the initial 4-6 baffles he could not recall the exact number. 

The results of the blood tests were that the blood matched Sheila's blood group not the blood group of any of the other victims.  The only other way for the result that both examiners got would have been if there had been a mixing of Nevill and June's blood, but that mixing had not been complete.

If Nevill and June's blood mixed completely then there would have been AK2-1 from June's blood detected. This is not present in Sheila’s blood and would be a sign that it was a mixture of June and Nevill's not Sheila's. 

If their blood did not completely mix then portions of their blood could have intermixed but there would be a chance that the AK2-1 was in a different blood stain not tested in the mix.

To simplify things say that June's blood contains X, Y, and Z, Nevill's blood A, B and C and Sheila's blood ABCXY.  A portion that is tested contains X and Y that mixed with Neville's blood but the portion of her blood containing Z dries in a separate location that was not tested.  In this case the mix would be missed and it would be identified as Sheila's.       

How could blood not thoroughly mix? If blood dried and then more blood splashed on top later then it would not necessarily mix completely. 

The forensics examiner ran tests of how hot the suppressor got and whether it could rapidly dry blood but the tests revealed it took quite some time before blood would dry inside. Unscrewing the suppressor would have caused a good mixture had 2 different bloods overlapped.

There was also blood on the outside of the suppressor.  On the front as well as the rear where is screws in.  This suggests the killer had blood on his/her hands and deposited it there after unscrewing it. The outside blood was unable to be tested successfully for blood type.     

Experts for both sides agreed the blood they tested was most likely Sheila's blood and that the chance intimate mixing had not occurred was remote and could not come up with an explanation as to why it would not thoroughly mix given the conditions.  Still at trial the forensic expert did mention the remote possibility that the tested blood was June and Nevill’s blood mixed together.

The experts thus agreed on the following points:

A) there was back spatter inside the suppressor that resulted from a contact shot or near contact shot.

B) the blood that was tested successfully was most likely Sheila’s blood but there was a remote chance that it was a mixture of June and Nevill’s blood

C) the wound to Sheila’s neck most likely would have resulted in back spatter.  Nevill had 1 wound that potentially was delivered close enough to result in back spatter entering the suppressor.  June had one wound that there was a slight chance could result in back spatter.
 
D) the rifle itself had no spatter though it most likely would have if it had been used without a suppressor to shoot Sheila.
 
What does all this mean?  It means the suppressor was definitely used during the course of the murders.  The evidence proves that for certain it was used to kill at the very least  Sheila or at the very least both of her parents.  If it was used to kill Sheila then it also wound have been used on her parents.

If either wound to her parents resulted in back spatter than so should her wound.  Her wound was the most likely to result in spatter based on the location and blood flowing around inside the area.  What these add up to is that based on the totality of circumstances it most likely was her blood that was tested.

The blood that was tested was expended during the tests thus none of it could be tested for DNA to determine whether it was in fact June and Nevill’s blood or Sheila’s blood. 

Claim on latest appeal:

1) A defense expert reviewing the case suspects that the flake of blood might have been a flake of soot that some blood got on and thus the blood did not mix together fully.  Under this scenario the chance of the blood being a mixture of Nevill and June’s blood is somewhat greater than if it were in fact a flake of blood.  He did not do any tests though to corroborate his claims that this were possible to occur and had no way to establish it had occurred.  He simply suggested maybe the forensics examiner was wrong that it was a flake of blood without any evidence to establish this was the case.  The court ruled that this rank speculation did not warrant any legal reversal.               

2) In 1999 the suppressor was tested for blood to try to see if any was present that could be tested for DNA but came up negative.  More thorough chemical tests would have rendered DNA analysis impossible so were not performed.  DNA tests found the presence of DNA on baffles far from the opening.  In 1985 and 1986 the distant baffles tested negative for blood using chemical tests.  The baffles were tested in groups not individually. Other parts of the moderator including the sides were also tested for DNA.     

Results: The parts other than the baffles tested positive for multiple DNA, the majority of which belonged to 1 or 2 females.  The exact number of people the DNA belonged to could not be ascertained but at minimum 2 individuals.

The baffles tested positive for June DNA and most likely Sheila’s DNA as well because 17 markers matched which creates a high match probability.  There was a faint signature of DNA from someone else that the defense said he believes is male though the results were so small that normally one cannot tell the gender so he had no real basis to say so for sure.   

Defense claim:

Since June’s DNA was inside and her blood alone could not have been the blood discussed at trial and there was a hint of male DNA that suggests the blood referenced a trial was in fact June and Nevill’s blood mixed together not Sheila’s blood. 

These findings clearly permit that June, Sheila and Nevill’s blood was in the suppressor.  They do not rule out that Sheila’s DNA was in there they suggest it was.  There is in fact a possibility all of them had blood deposited inside though yet again the most likely to do so would be Sheila based on the nature of her injury.  The chance of her wound not featuring back spatter was relatively low. The chance of her wound not causing back spatter if Nevill or June’s cause spatter would be even lower.  These findings are unable to establish that the blood tested by the experts for the trial was definitely June and Nevill’s blood and not Sheila’s.

A) blood could be deposited in different places. Thus it is possible that the dried flake was Sheila’s blood alone and yet June and Nevill’s blood was deposited elsewhere prior to this flake entering and drying into a flake.  You need to test the exact blood that was tested in 1985/86 for DNA to say whose DNA that particular blood belonged to but that is not possible.     
 
B) By the time that the DNA tests were run there was very little blood left and almost certainly contamination in some form.  There was either DNA contamination or the baffles were reassembled out of order from where they were originally.  Tests done in 1985/86 ruled out blood beyond the 8th baffle. Yet DNA was found on all batches of baffles (again the baffles were tested in batches not individually).  Tests in 1999 for blood proved negative.  The only way to know for sure if any blood were missed would have been chemical tests that would have prevented DNA so we have no way to know if the DNA was from blood.  If it were from blood that would suggest 1 or more of the first 7 baffles (first seven at the time of the murders) was placed further back in the suppressor at some point.  For example.  Suppose the jury or whoever else took it apart had placed baffles 2 and 3 in the 14th and 16th position and baffles 1 and 4 in the 9 and 11th position.  This throws everything off.  The tests were baffles 1-7 in one group, 8-11 in another and 12-17.  The result would be that it looks like blood flew end to end.  But that is only because of the error in reassembling it and testing the baffles in groups.  If the baffles were not tested in groups, it had been established that the DNA was blood based and came back for DNA on baffles 2, 3, 5, 9, 11, 14, and 16 that would prove the baffles were moved at some point because the far baffles tested negative for blood.  Since we don’t know the DNA was from blood it could have come from contamination unrelated to the shootings we can’ be sure it was from blood.

 If we make leaps that this was definitely blood based DNA from the murders it doesn’t prove the flake tested was Nevill and June’s DNA all 3 of their blood could have been in the suppressor.  We are in no better place than the experts at the original trial.  Based on this evidence we can’t say the blood was most likely June and Nevill’s not Sheila’s.   It still most likely was Sheila’s.

Even if it could be proved that it was June and Nevill’s blood not Sheila’s I don’t see how this helps much.  That simply would corroborate that the gun had a suppressor when used on June and Nevill and corroborate it was used to make the marks under the shelf.  Jeremy insists the gun had no suppressor when he left it out.  Which means Sheila can’t have just picked it up off the kitchen table in the middle of a rage.  She had to go to the closet and take out the suppressor and install it.  It was on when she attacked her father in the bedroom and still on when she went downstairs to fight him and kill him.  It was still on when she went back upstairs to deliver the near contact shot to make sure June was dead.  Then she could not kill herself with it so removed it.  But instead of leaving it out she took the time to go downstairs, put it in the closet and then went back upstairs to kill herself.  Why would she do that?  These are not actions that would make sense for someone sane about to commit suicide let alone someone supposedly in a crazy rage.  Hiding the suppressor in the closet only makes sense for someone who doesn’t want anyone to know it was used. Someone who murders everyone with it but needs to remove it in order to commit suicide would take it off, leave it near their body and then commit suicide.  Seeking out the suppressor to put it on also makes little sense. Her parents were in the same bedroom and would hear the shots regardless of the suppressor given how close they were to her.  If there were other adults in the house who could hear the shots and take action then it would make sense to try to be as silent as possible.

Planning ahead by seeking out the silencer and removing the bedroom phone are not consistent with a crazy person going into a rage and grabbing a gun lying in front of her.  It supports the suicide frame he was convicted of.  He needed evidence that the silencer was not used at all but that still doesn’t discount all the other evidence anyway.     
                           
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2014, 10:58:04 PM »
Check back on my posts and I think you will find I have already rebutted all your posts  ?>)()<

Perhaps when JB's case is referred to CoA the Crown will appoint you  @)(++(*

You failed to respond to my points so how did you rebut them? 

You have not addressed my lengthy post broken into 2 parts because you can't without embarrassing yourself further.   
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 12:22:19 PM »
Suppressor issues:

I. Paint

Scratches were made to the underneath of a shelf consistent with scratches that would be made by the suppressor if the suppressor had been attached the gun and 2 people struggled over control of it and it scratched against the bottom of the shelf. The scratches were not straight they would have been made by swaying. Paint found on or in the supressor matched the paint on the shelf.  If had the same layers of paint. Police inspectied the scene to see where the paint could have come from and the only place scratched up was the shelf near where a struggle was known to have occurred.

Claim on appeal: an photograph expert claims that he analyzed photos taken in August 1985 which reveal there was no damage to the shelf and that the damage thus had to have been made after the murders to frame Jeremy.

Result: The photos the expert relied upon did not show the underneath of the shelf which is where the damage was.  They were shots of the entire room thus did not show the shelf in any detail.  It was necessary to take a close up of the area in order to capture the scratches.  Therefore the fact the photos were not detailed enough to detect the scratches doesn’t prove they were not present when these photos were taken. Therefore these photos fail to prove the scratches were not present when police entered the scene. 

II. Blood

When the suppressor was originally tested a considerable amount of blood was removed from the suppressor.  Not all of this blood was tested though to determine the blood type. A swab of the upper portion of the first 4 baffle plates was tested.   A flake of blood found around the first few plates was also removed and tested.
Prior to trial the defense consulted with the forensics examiner over his blood tests and results and also independently tested the suppressor but it was after the police already had removed the blood evidence.  The first 8 baffles tested positive for the presence of blood.  He attributed this to the fact the blood had been removed previously and his was just the remnants that had not been cleaned off.  The forensics examiner also only found evidence of blood on the initial 4-6 baffles he could not recall the exact number. 

The results of the blood tests were that the blood matched Sheila's blood group not the blood group of any of the other victims.  The only other way for the result that both examiners got would have been if there had been a mixing of Nevill and June's blood, but that mixing had not been complete.

If Nevill and June's blood mixed completely then there would have been AK2-1 from June's blood detected. This is not present in Sheila’s blood and would be a sign that it was a mixture of June and Nevill's not Sheila's. 

If their blood did not completely mix then portions of their blood could have intermixed but there would be a chance that the AK2-1 was in a different blood stain not tested in the mix.

To simplify things say that June's blood contains X, Y, and Z, Nevill's blood A, B and C and Sheila's blood ABCXY.  A portion that is tested contains X and Y that mixed with Neville's blood but the portion of her blood containing Z dries in a separate location that was not tested.  In this case the mix would be missed and it would be identified as Sheila's.       

How could blood not thoroughly mix? If blood dried and then more blood splashed on top later then it would not necessarily mix completely. 

The forensics examiner ran tests of how hot the suppressor got and whether it could rapidly dry blood but the tests revealed it took quite some time before blood would dry inside. Unscrewing the suppressor would have caused a good mixture had 2 different bloods overlapped.

There was also blood on the outside of the suppressor.  On the front as well as the rear where is screws in.  This suggests the killer had blood on his/her hands and deposited it there after unscrewing it. The outside blood was unable to be tested successfully for blood type.     

Experts for both sides agreed the blood they tested was most likely Sheila's blood and that the chance intimate mixing had not occurred was remote and could not come up with an explanation as to why it would not thoroughly mix given the conditions.  Still at trial the forensic expert did mention the remote possibility that the tested blood was June and Nevill’s blood mixed together.

The experts thus agreed on the following points:

A) there was back spatter inside the suppressor that resulted from a contact shot or near contact shot.

B) the blood that was tested successfully was most likely Sheila’s blood but there was a remote chance that it was a mixture of June and Nevill’s blood

C) the wound to Sheila’s neck most likely would have resulted in back spatter.  Nevill had 1 wound that potentially was delivered close enough to result in back spatter entering the suppressor.  June had one wound that there was a slight chance could result in back spatter.
 
D) the rifle itself had no spatter though it most likely would have if it had been used without a suppressor to shoot Sheila.
 
What does all this mean?  It means the suppressor was definitely used during the course of the murders.  The evidence proves that for certain it was used to kill at the very least  Sheila or at the very least both of her parents.  If it was used to kill Sheila then it also wound have been used on her parents.

If either wound to her parents resulted in back spatter than so should her wound.  Her wound was the most likely to result in spatter based on the location and blood flowing around inside the area.  What these add up to is that based on the totality of circumstances it most likely was her blood that was tested.

The blood that was tested was expended during the tests thus none of it could be tested for DNA to determine whether it was in fact June and Nevill’s blood or Sheila’s blood. 

Claim on latest appeal:

1) A defense expert reviewing the case suspects that the flake of blood might have been a flake of soot that some blood got on and thus the blood did not mix together fully.  Under this scenario the chance of the blood being a mixture of Nevill and June’s blood is somewhat greater than if it were in fact a flake of blood.  He did not do any tests though to corroborate his claims that this were possible to occur and had no way to establish it had occurred.  He simply suggested maybe the forensics examiner was wrong that it was a flake of blood without any evidence to establish this was the case.  The court ruled that this rank speculation did not warrant any legal reversal.               

2) In 1999 the suppressor was tested for blood to try to see if any was present that could be tested for DNA but came up negative.  More thorough chemical tests would have rendered DNA analysis impossible so were not performed.  DNA tests found the presence of DNA on baffles far from the opening.  In 1985 and 1986 the distant baffles tested negative for blood using chemical tests.  The baffles were tested in groups not individually. Other parts of the moderator including the sides were also tested for DNA.     

Results: The parts other than the baffles tested positive for multiple DNA, the majority of which belonged to 1 or 2 females.  The exact number of people the DNA belonged to could not be ascertained but at minimum 2 individuals.

The baffles tested positive for June DNA and most likely Sheila’s DNA as well because 17 markers matched which creates a high match probability.  There was a faint signature of DNA from someone else that the defense said he believes is male though the results were so small that normally one cannot tell the gender so he had no real basis to say so for sure.   

Defense claim:

Since June’s DNA was inside and her blood alone could not have been the blood discussed at trial and there was a hint of male DNA that suggests the blood referenced a trial was in fact June and Nevill’s blood mixed together not Sheila’s blood. 

These findings clearly permit that June, Sheila and Nevill’s blood was in the suppressor.  They do not rule out that Sheila’s DNA was in there they suggest it was.  There is in fact a possibility all of them had blood deposited inside though yet again the most likely to do so would be Sheila based on the nature of her injury.  The chance of her wound not featuring back spatter was relatively low. The chance of her wound not causing back spatter if Nevill or June’s cause spatter would be even lower.  These findings are unable to establish that the blood tested by the experts for the trial was definitely June and Nevill’s blood and not Sheila’s.

A) blood could be deposited in different places. Thus it is possible that the dried flake was Sheila’s blood alone and yet June and Nevill’s blood was deposited elsewhere prior to this flake entering and drying into a flake.  You need to test the exact blood that was tested in 1985/86 for DNA to say whose DNA that particular blood belonged to but that is not possible.     
 
B) By the time that the DNA tests were run there was very little blood left and almost certainly contamination in some form.  There was either DNA contamination or the baffles were reassembled out of order from where they were originally.  Tests done in 1985/86 ruled out blood beyond the 8th baffle. Yet DNA was found on all batches of baffles (again the baffles were tested in batches not individually).  Tests in 1999 for blood proved negative.  The only way to know for sure if any blood were missed would have been chemical tests that would have prevented DNA so we have no way to know if the DNA was from blood.  If it were from blood that would suggest 1 or more of the first 7 baffles (first seven at the time of the murders) was placed further back in the suppressor at some point.  For example.  Suppose the jury or whoever else took it apart had placed baffles 2 and 3 in the 14th and 16th position and baffles 1 and 4 in the 9 and 11th position.  This throws everything off.  The tests were baffles 1-7 in one group, 8-11 in another and 12-17.  The result would be that it looks like blood flew end to end.  But that is only because of the error in reassembling it and testing the baffles in groups.  If the baffles were not tested in groups, it had been established that the DNA was blood based and came back for DNA on baffles 2, 3, 5, 9, 11, 14, and 16 that would prove the baffles were moved at some point because the far baffles tested negative for blood.  Since we don’t know the DNA was from blood it could have come from contamination unrelated to the shootings we can’ be sure it was from blood.

 If we make leaps that this was definitely blood based DNA from the murders it doesn’t prove the flake tested was Nevill and June’s DNA all 3 of their blood could have been in the suppressor.  We are in no better place than the experts at the original trial.  Based on this evidence we can’t say the blood was most likely June and Nevill’s not Sheila’s.   It still most likely was Sheila’s.

Even if it could be proved that it was June and Nevill’s blood not Sheila’s I don’t see how this helps much.  That simply would corroborate that the gun had a suppressor when used on June and Nevill and corroborate it was used to make the marks under the shelf.  Jeremy insists the gun had no suppressor when he left it out.  Which means Sheila can’t have just picked it up off the kitchen table in the middle of a rage.  She had to go to the closet and take out the suppressor and install it.  It was on when she attacked her father in the bedroom and still on when she went downstairs to fight him and kill him.  It was still on when she went back upstairs to deliver the near contact shot to make sure June was dead.  Then she could not kill herself with it so removed it.  But instead of leaving it out she took the time to go downstairs, put it in the closet and then went back upstairs to kill herself.  Why would she do that?  These are not actions that would make sense for someone sane about to commit suicide let alone someone supposedly in a crazy rage.  Hiding the suppressor in the closet only makes sense for someone who doesn’t want anyone to know it was used. Someone who murders everyone with it but needs to remove it in order to commit suicide would take it off, leave it near their body and then commit suicide.  Seeking out the suppressor to put it on also makes little sense. Her parents were in the same bedroom and would hear the shots regardless of the suppressor given how close they were to her.  If there were other adults in the house who could hear the shots and take action then it would make sense to try to be as silent as possible.

Planning ahead by seeking out the silencer and removing the bedroom phone are not consistent with a crazy person going into a rage and grabbing a gun lying in front of her.  It supports the suicide frame he was convicted of.  He needed evidence that the silencer was not used at all but that still doesn’t discount all the other evidence anyway.     
                         

I claim back spatter is rare you disagree.  The only victim to suffer a DEFINITE contact wound was Nicholas so please can you explain why his blood was not in the silencer.

Please can you also supply some independent documentary evidence showing that back spatter is a  common occurrence. 

It has never been proven that Sheila's blood was in the silencer just her type/group which matches many including Robert Boutflour's.  Here's the table:

  ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber           O                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                   Hp2-1
June Bamber            A                         PGM1+                EAP BA               AK2-1                Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell            O                        PGM2+1+            EAP B                 AK1                   Hp2
Nicholas Caffell         O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B                 AK1                    Hp2

Sheila Caffell            A                        PGM1+                EAP BA               AK1                    Hp2-1
Blood Sample           A                        Nil                        EAP BA              AK1                    Hp2-1
Robert Boutflour       A                         PGM1+                 EAP BA             AK1                    Hp2-1

At the CoA hearing it was agreed by all concerned that the LCN DNA analysis was utterly meaningless due to the very real risk of contamination.

504. Mr Webster then reviewed in detail the history of the handling of the moderator and the various opportunities for contamination. He considered the fact that Dr Lincoln had taken out all the baffles and tested them all. He referred to the fact that both Mr Hayward and Mr Fletcher had handled the moderator in the witness box, a place where other exhibits were produced without any precautions being taken to avoid contact. He pointed to the fact that the judge specifically told the jury that they could "empty the baffles out later" and that it could not be established what use had been made of the moderator by the jury during their deliberations or what other exhibits may have been in their possession. He observed that the judge had told the jury that if they handled any of the clothing, they should put on plastic gloves for their own protection, thus giving rise to the possibility that blood stained items were examined by the jury with no precautions being taken to ensure that if they then went to handle the baffles there was not contamination.

506. We have no doubt at all that if this evidence had been placed before a jury, they would have concluded, as we do, that in accordance with the emphasised part of Mr Webster's report quoted above, the DNA testing results were rendered completely "completely meaningless".



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2014, 01:07:26 PM »
So lets see, how did Sheila's DNA get deep inside the sound moderator?   (Note: Tests on material derived from the baffles deep within the sound moderator returned a LCN match of 17 markers in common with Sheila Caffell.  The chance of this matching any other person are many millions to one.)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 01:09:51 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2014, 01:28:56 PM »
So lets see, how did Sheila's DNA get deep inside the sound moderator?   (Note: Tests on material derived from the baffles deep within the sound moderator returned a LCN match of 17 markers in common with Sheila Caffell.  The chance of this matching any other person are many millions to one.)

Contamination is the most likely explanation as agreed by scientists and appeal court judges at CoA 2002:

504. Mr Webster then reviewed in detail the history of the handling of the moderator and the various opportunities for contamination. He considered the fact that Dr Lincoln had taken out all the baffles and tested them all. He referred to the fact that both Mr Hayward and Mr Fletcher had handled the moderator in the witness box, a place where other exhibits were produced without any precautions being taken to avoid contact. He pointed to the fact that the judge specifically told the jury that they could "empty the baffles out later" and that it could not be established what use had been made of the moderator by the jury during their deliberations or what other exhibits may have been in their possession. He observed that the judge had told the jury that if they handled any of the clothing, they should put on plastic gloves for their own protection, thus giving rise to the possibility that blood stained items were examined by the jury with no precautions being taken to ensure that if they then went to handle the baffles there was not contamination.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2014, 01:48:05 PM »
Contamination is the most likely explanation as agreed by scientists and appeal court judges at CoA 2002:

504. Mr Webster then reviewed in detail the history of the handling of the moderator and the various opportunities for contamination. He considered the fact that Dr Lincoln had taken out all the baffles and tested them all. He referred to the fact that both Mr Hayward and Mr Fletcher had handled the moderator in the witness box, a place where other exhibits were produced without any precautions being taken to avoid contact. He pointed to the fact that the judge specifically told the jury that they could "empty the baffles out later" and that it could not be established what use had been made of the moderator by the jury during their deliberations or what other exhibits may have been in their possession. He observed that the judge had told the jury that if they handled any of the clothing, they should put on plastic gloves for their own protection, thus giving rise to the possibility that blood stained items were examined by the jury with no precautions being taken to ensure that if they then went to handle the baffles there was not contamination.

How does someone who is deceased contaminate the insides of a sound moderator?   A moderator which she never used or handled.

I accept there was always the possibility of contamination after its discovery but the DNA found within the moderator still belonged to Sheila.  The only possible alternatives are that it was contaminated in the lab by someone who had contact with Sheila Caffell's DNA or that material was planted. 

A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2014, 02:26:27 PM »
How does someone who is deceased contaminate the insides of a sound moderator?   A moderator which she never used or handled.

I accept there was always the possibility of contamination after its discovery but the DNA found within the moderator still belonged to Sheila.  The only possible alternatives are that it was contaminated in the lab by someone who had contact with Sheila Caffell's DNA or that material was planted.

The CoA said the DNA "may" have belonged to SC.  If we assume it did belong to SC contamination cannot be ruled out especially from the jurors who handled SC's blood stained nightie along with the silencer which they took apart during deliberations.  It's all contained in point 504 of CoA doc:

504. Mr Webster then reviewed in detail the history of the handling of the moderator and the various opportunities for contamination. He considered the fact that Dr Lincoln had taken out all the baffles and tested them all. He referred to the fact that both Mr Hayward and Mr Fletcher had handled the moderator in the witness box, a place where other exhibits were produced without any precautions being taken to avoid contact. He pointed to the fact that the judge specifically told the jury that they could "empty the baffles out later" and that it could not be established what use had been made of the moderator by the jury during their deliberations or what other exhibits may have been in their possession. He observed that the judge had told the jury that if they handled any of the clothing, they should put on plastic gloves for their own protection, thus giving rise to the possibility that blood stained items were examined by the jury with no precautions being taken to ensure that if they then went to handle the baffles there was not contamination.

LCN DNA

LCN is an extension of Second Generation Multiplex Plus (SGM Plus) profiling technique. It is a more sensitive technique because it involves a greater amount of copying via polymerase chain reaction (PCR) from a smaller amount of starting material, meaning that a profile can be obtained from only a few cells, which may be as small as a millionth the size of a grain of salt, and amount to a just few cells of skin or sweat left from a fingerprint.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2014, 03:24:10 PM »
You would have more chance of winning the National Lottery twice than any juror matching 17 markers with Sheila Caffell so lets keep a modicum of common sense in this discussion please.

For the zillionth time, an Appeal Court Judge is guided by the Law.  In the UK a judge cannot confirm a match unless 10 pairs or 20 markers are in common.  This is merely a safeguard against wrongful convictions.

Finding 17 markers in common wrt Sheila Caffell in the Bamber case doesn't mean it isn't a match.  All it means is that a judge cannot say so legally.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 03:29:53 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2014, 03:58:18 PM »
You would have more chance of winning the National Lottery twice than any juror matching 17 markers with Sheila Caffell so lets keep a modicum of common sense in this discussion please.

For the zillionth time, an Appeal Court Judge is guided by the Law.  In the UK a judge cannot confirm a match unless 10 pairs or 20 markers are in common.  This is merely a safeguard against wrongful convictions.

Finding 17 markers in common wrt Sheila Caffell in the Bamber case doesn't mean it isn't a match.  All it means is that a judge cannot say so legally.

I have already said I am prepared to accept that SC's DNA was in the silencer but what I am not prepared to write off is how it most likely came to be there ie contamination. 

504. Mr Webster then reviewed in detail the history of the handling of the moderator and the various opportunities for contamination. He considered the fact that Dr Lincoln had taken out all the baffles and tested them all. He referred to the fact that both Mr Hayward and Mr Fletcher had handled the moderator in the witness box, a place where other exhibits were produced without any precautions being taken to avoid contact. He pointed to the fact that the judge specifically told the jury that they could "empty the baffles out later" and that it could not be established what use had been made of the moderator by the jury during their deliberations or what other exhibits may have been in their possession. He observed that the judge had told the jury that if they handled any of the clothing, they should put on plastic gloves for their own protection, thus giving rise to the possibility that blood stained items were examined by the jury with no precautions being taken to ensure that if they then went to handle the baffles there was not contamination.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy Bamber - The blood in the sound moderator revisited.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2014, 04:08:57 PM »
I agree Holly, the DNA could have arrived in the silencer baffles by several routes.

1. Blood spray sucked into the silencer.
2. Contamination after being dismantled.
3. Planted evidence.


Given what occurred however, I still feel #1 the most likely scenario given the two close-proximity shots to Sheila and the blood on the silencer.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.