Author Topic: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)  (Read 269222 times)

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Offline pegasus

General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« on: December 07, 2014, 02:40:55 AM »
In the unofficial list of witnesses to be interviewed (see "latest news" thread), the relevance of employee TS may be the missing keys story?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/458798/Apartment-key-theft-cover-up-by-resort-staff-in-Madeleine-McCann-case

2550
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:57:38 PM by John »

Offline pegasus

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2014, 12:53:29 PM »
BTW I started this thread to provide a place to discuss what is on the "latest news" thread


Offline Carana

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2014, 02:07:54 PM »
BTW I started this thread to provide a place to discuss what is on the "latest news" thread

Good idea, Pegasus.

The "news" on the "news" thread is rarely more than speculation anyway.

I don't have an opinion on the specific question you raised as the "news" often appears to be unreliable.

What does make sense to me is a methodical process of analysing information, identifying loose ends and exploring them in further detail.

The key issue seems to be a valid avenue to explore, although it may not lead anywhere.

No one knows at this point:

- whether keys actually disappeared or not;

- nor for how long if they did;

- nor in whose possession they may have been if they were;

- nor when a key to 5A specifically may have disappeared or been lost;

- nor whether keys could have been temporarily been taken from someone else's possession (hiding place) without them realising it.

Although such keys appear unusual for the UK, I'm told they are standard in Portugal. If that's the case, any corner kiosk / hardware shop could have made a duplicate and the original replaced within a very short space of time.

Offline pegasus

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2014, 02:40:25 PM »
@carana yes I was just pointing out the relevance of witness TS on the speculative list may be the supposed missing keys as he was the one the newspaper "doorstepped" about the keys.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 02:46:01 PM by pegasus »

Offline jassi

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2014, 03:18:15 PM »
Good idea, Pegasus.

The "news" on the "news" thread is rarely more than speculation anyway.

I don't have an opinion on the specific question you raised as the "news" often appears to be unreliable.

What does make sense to me is a methodical process of analysing information, identifying loose ends and exploring them in further detail.

The key issue seems to be a valid avenue to explore, although it may not lead anywhere.

No one knows at this point:

- whether keys actually disappeared or not;

- nor for how long if they did;

- nor in whose possession they may have been if they were;

- nor when a key to 5A specifically may have disappeared or been lost;

- nor whether keys could have been temporarily been taken from someone else's possession (hiding place) without them realising it.

Although such keys appear unusual for the UK, I'm told they are standard in Portugal. If that's the case, any corner kiosk / hardware shop could have made a duplicate and the original replaced within a very short space of time.
While it may be a logical progression, they seem to have taken an awfully long time to get to 'tying up loose ends'.
One might have expected these to have been done long ago, - perhaps before they started digging holes - particularly as the witnesses appear to be people know to and already interviewed by the PJ.
To all you Amaral campers out there, Hi De Hi

I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -  Almost 10 years and still no solution.

Online davel

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2014, 04:14:37 PM »
While it may be a logical progression, they seem to have taken an awfully long time to get to 'tying up loose ends'.
One might have expected these to have been done long ago, - perhaps before they started digging holes - particularly as the witnesses appear to be people know to and already interviewed by the PJ.

I don't think you should assume you know better than SY...It may be the searches came first to find possible evidence
as experienced investigators...based on the evidence...we believe Madeleine McCann was removed from the apartment by a stranger....DCI Redwood...Scotland Yard

Neither the McCanns nor their friend are persons of interest or suspects

If civil questions are being asked can we have the courtesy to provide civil answers.

Offline Carana

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2014, 04:26:32 PM »
While it may be a logical progression, they seem to have taken an awfully long time to get to 'tying up loose ends'.
One might have expected these to have been done long ago, - perhaps before they started digging holes - particularly as the witnesses appear to be people know to and already interviewed by the PJ.

If there had been agreement about a joint investigation team (JIT), progress would presumably have been much faster as every detail wouldn't have had to be subject to an excruciatingly long legal process.

Offline jassi

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2014, 04:30:48 PM »
That doesn't explain why questioning these people didn't take place before holes were dug. Its not as if these are new discovers- the witnesses were all interviewed before and their statements in the files.
I agree that the process takes time, but that is not an explanation for the timing of these interviews.
IMO
To all you Amaral campers out there, Hi De Hi

I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -  Almost 10 years and still no solution.

Offline Carana

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2014, 04:40:59 PM »
That doesn't explain why questioning these people didn't take place before holes were dug. Its not as if these are new discovers- the witnesses were all interviewed before and their statements in the files.
I agree that the process takes time, but that is not an explanation for the timing of these interviews.
IMO

The two events may have been (largely) unrelated strands.

The ground search may have been routine, or it may have been intelligence-based. If it was intelligence-based and  had led to the discovery of evidence, that would have provided more pertinent questions to ask of potential suspects.

Or, even more mundanely, the timing may have been scheduled according to when it was feasible to gather together all the people necessary to conduct it.

Offline jassi

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2014, 04:43:14 PM »
Perhaps we shall never know.
To all you Amaral campers out there, Hi De Hi

I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -  Almost 10 years and still no solution.

Offline Faithlilly

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2014, 04:50:42 PM »
That doesn't explain why questioning these people didn't take place before holes were dug. Its not as if these are new discovers- the witnesses were all interviewed before and their statements in the files.
I agree that the process takes time, but that is not an explanation for the timing of these interviews.
IMO

Christine Callan appears to be an associate of Michael Green so perhaps she is his alibi ? The two maintance men Luis Antonio and Mario Marreiros had a legitimate reason to be in 5a and for their fingerprints and even DNA to be there. It could also be argued that if they were looking into 5a, as seen by Miss Silence, that wouldn't be at all suspicious. Antonio Luis, Robert Murat and Michaela Walchzuch where included because they provided an alibi for each other and Joaquim Marques is only on the list, as far as I can see, because he was fingered as Cooperman.

Is this questioning about eliminating individuals who may be used by the defence in any future trial ?
Moral Guilt
Detractors of the work of our British Police in bringing criminals to justice generally ignore the important distinction between moral proof and legal evidence of guilt. In not a few cases that are popularly classed with 'unsolved mysteries of crime,' the offender is known, but evidence is wanting. If, for example, in- a recent murder case of special notoriety and interest,* certain human remains had not been found in a cellar, a great crime would have been catalogued among `Police failures'; and yet, even without the evidence which sent themurderer to the gallows, the moral proof of his guilt would have been full and clear.
Robert Anderson

Online Brietta

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2014, 05:13:40 PM »
While it may be a logical progression, they seem to have taken an awfully long time to get to 'tying up loose ends'.
One might have expected these to have been done long ago, - perhaps before they started digging holes - particularly as the witnesses appear to be people know to and already interviewed by the PJ.

I agree, all of this should have been carried out long ago ... 2007 to be precise. 

There is plenty of information in the files about Robert Murat's phone usage and that of Madeleine's parents and their friends and rightly so. 
However it must surely be accepted that it was a mistake to concentrate all resources to that and neglect other phone traffic in PDL.  It took Operation Grange to undertake that diligence of scrutinising and analysing the phone triangulations which indicated other persons of interest.

That there are so many loose ends and witnesses to be interviewed and re-interviewed does indicate historical neglect.
Operation Grange had in effect to go back to square one. 

In the witness statements given by these people to the PJ ...  was anyone asked about phone calls ... was their given location checked against these calls?  Apparently not.  Otherwise SY would not be having to play catch up now.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline jassi

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2014, 05:25:39 PM »
It will be interesting to see if  the analysis of  the phone traffic proves to be of any use.
To all you Amaral campers out there, Hi De Hi

I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -  Almost 10 years and still no solution.

Offline Carana

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2014, 05:26:19 PM »
Christine Callan appears to be an associate of Michael Green so perhaps she is his alibi ? The two maintance men Luis Antonio and Mario Marreiros had a legitimate reason to be in 5a and for their fingerprints and even DNA to be there. It could also be argued that if they were looking into 5a, as seen by Miss Silence, that wouldn't be at all suspicious. Antonio Luis, Robert Murat and Michaela Walchzuch where included because they provided an alibi for each other and Joaquim Marques is only on the list, as far as I can see, because he was fingered as Cooperman.

Is this questioning about eliminating individuals who may be used by the defence in any future trial ?

What fingerprints and DNA in 5A are associated with any of these people??

Unless there is a different Luis Antonio in the files, the only one I've seen is the swimming pool entrepreneur.

The questions asked at the time of Mario-the-laundry-man are so vague, it's not clear where he actually picked the laundry up from. Did he go into each of the flats to pick it up? How likely is that? Did the cleaning ladies dump it outside? Down the stairwell for central collection?


Online Brietta

Re: General discussion about the latest news (not search related)
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2014, 05:36:31 PM »
It will be interesting to see if  the analysis of  the phone traffic proves to be of any use.

Even if it does not point to a perpetrator it is a line of investigation which should have been followed in 2007.

Similarly it should not have been left to Operation Grange to attempt to ascertain which of the flats in the immediate blocks were occupied prior to Madeleine's disappearance, by whom and which had been illegally sub-let ... that is a diligence which should have been carried out in 2007.

All investigation is a process of elimination.  However if no-one bothers to investigate ... nothing will be found ... and that can only be of benefit to criminals.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"