Author Topic: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão  (Read 5196 times)

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Offline John

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It never ceases to amaze the excuses which are served up in an attempt to exculpate these two sorry characters.  No innocent people of sound mind carry on in the manner in which the Ciprianos did with each taking it in turns to blame the other for the killing of Joana.  Only they know what really happend to Joana that night after she returned from an errand to the local shop but they aren't for telling because the reality of the crime is just too dreadful for even them to contemplate.
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Offline Carana

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It never ceases to amaze the excuses which are served up in an attempt to exculpate these two sorry characters.  No innocent people of sound mind carry on in the manner in which the Ciprianos did with each taking it in turns to blame the other for the killing of Joana.  Only they know what really happend to Joana that night after she returned from an errand to the local shop but they aren't for telling because the reality of the crime is just too dreadful for even them to contemplate.

I disagree.

It's a possibility that they knew or were involved. So far, ok.

However, aside from interrogations in far from transparent conditions, there is simply nothing of substance as to what actually happened to this little girl, let alone who was responsible.


Online ferryman

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It never ceases to amaze the excuses which are served up in an attempt to exculpate these two sorry characters.  No innocent people of sound mind carry on in the manner in which the Ciprianos did with each taking it in turns to blame the other for the killing of Joana.  Only they know what really happend to Joana that night after she returned from an errand to the local shop but they aren't for telling because the reality of the crime is just too dreadful for even them to contemplate.

Whilst, of course, innocent people of sound mind do carry on the way the PJ did, tying a woman to a chair and beating her to a point of near blindness.

Nothing that (either) Cipriano said should be taken into account in attempts to determine the truth of events, simply because their interrogations were conducted against a backdrop of hostility, intimidation, threat and (ultimately) violence.
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Offline John

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2016, 12:08:29 PM »
Whilst, of course, innocent people of sound mind do carry on the way the PJ did, tying a woman to a chair and beating her to a point of near blindness.

Nothing that (either) Cipriano said should be taken into account in attempts to determine the truth of events, simply because their interrogations were conducted against a backdrop of hostility, intimidation, threat and (ultimately) violence.

Conveniently you forgot to mention that Leonor's blame game commenced well before she was beaten.   In case you can't remember let me refresh your memory.  Leonor told the police that she had a falling out with her daughter and had hit her head off a wall in the family home.  She also volunteered the information that her brother João then took the deceased girl out the back and hid her.

This version of events is not entirely consistent with innocence or of a stranger abduction for that matter.  Regardless of whether this is true or the later story she came up with where Joáo tried to sell the girl and it went badly wrong, Leonor and Joáo are guilty of some involvement.  Neither are innocent!
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 12:12:18 PM by John »
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Offline Angelo222

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2016, 01:01:07 PM »
Conveniently you forgot to mention that Leonor's blame game commenced well before she was beaten.   In case you can't remember let me refresh your memory.  Leonor told the police that she had a falling out with her daughter and had hit her head off a wall in the family home.  She also volunteered the information that her brother João then took the deceased girl out the back and hid her.

This version of events is not entirely consistent with innocence or of a stranger abduction for that matter.  Regardless of whether this is true or the later story she came up with where Joáo tried to sell the girl and it went badly wrong, Leonor and Joáo are guilty of some involvement.  Neither are innocent!

Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day.  No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.
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Offline John

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2016, 04:10:52 PM »
Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day.  No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.

I believe some excuse was made that she might have gone to stay with friends but that doesn't hold much water to be honest.  In any event a local woman saw her heading home with the shopping she had just purchased.
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Offline Carana

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2016, 10:07:33 AM »
Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day.  No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.

They met with a GNR officer that night (AA6) who told her to go to police station in the morning to make an official statement. She and João did go to Portimão police station later in the morning.


A testemunha AA6, militar da GNR, declarou que nessa noite decorria o festival do berbigão na Figueira e que após a chamada da D. NN encontrou-se com a arguida BB, o II e outro indivíduo, junto à igreja, tendo a mãe contado que a CC tinha desaparecido, referindo que a tinha mandado ao café e que a última vez que a menor tinha sido vista tinha sido ali, também junto à igreja. A testemunha disse-lhe que no dia seguinte teria que ir ao Posto em Portimão formalizar a queixa. Declarou ainda a testemunha que a mãe não aparentava muita preocupação para um caso destes.

A testemunha AA7, militar da GNR, referiu que no dia 13 de Setembro de 2004, no Posto da GNR de Portimão, entre as 10h 30m / 11h, recebeu a queixa do desaparecimento da CC. Foi a mãe que fez a queixa, acompanhada do arguido AA. A arguida BB aparentava tristeza, mas não chorou. A testemunha recebeu as fotografias que a mãe levava e perguntou-lhe se havia motivos para a CC fugir de casa ou se tinha algumas desconfianças, a tudo tendo a arguida BB respondido que não.

Offline John

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2016, 08:17:48 PM »
Indeed, the GNR officers noted that the mother was not in the least distraught as one would expect the mother of a missing 8-year-old to be in such a situation.  The police were certainly far from convinced otherwise they would have commenced a search there aand then.

GNR officer: Pop up to the station in the morning dear if she doesnt turn up!

Aye right!!

« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:25:21 PM by John »
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Offline Angelo222

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2016, 11:04:28 AM »
The missing girl's uncle, John Cipriano, once claimed the only difference between them and the McCanns was that the latter had money. I agree, they have more in common when it came to child care than they want to admit.
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Offline sadie

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Re: Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2016, 12:32:32 AM »
Joana was only 8 years old when she disappeared yet neither her mother or her uncle bothered to contact the police until the following day.  No doubt they were busy destroying the evidence.
What a biased post Angelo ... and totally incorrect as Caranas post shows. In actual fact, they spoke with a GNR Officer that night, who told her to go to the police station in the morning

[quote from Caranas post]
They met with a GNR officer that night (AA6) who told her to go to police station in the morning to make an official statement. She and João did go to Portimão police station later in the morning.[finish quote]
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Offline Angelo222

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What a biased post Angelo ... and totally incorrect as Caranas post shows. In actual fact, they spoke with a GNR Officer that night, who told her to go to the police station in the morning

[quote from Caranas post]
They met with a GNR officer that night (AA6) who told her to go to police station in the morning to make an official statement. She and João did go to Portimão police station later in the morning.[finish quote]

You had children Sadie.  If your 8-year-old daughter disappeared one evening after being sent on an errand would you have left her out all night without bothering your head to kick up a fuss.  An honest answer would be nice!
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Offline John

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You had children Sadie.  If your 8-year-old daughter disappeared one evening after being sent on an errand would you have left her out all night without bothering your head to kick up a fuss.  An honest answer would be nice!

Whereas Leonor went home and had cake.
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Offline Carana

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OK. So you seem to be saying that after X time in the first series of "interviews" that she had never been confronted with the idea of "admittting" to an "accident" with a minor prison term as opposed to being charged with murder?

If you are barely literate, have been subjected to harrowing "interviews", you haven't a clue what's going on aside from the fact that your child is still missing, your pro-bono lawyers keep changing, WTF are you supposed to do?



Offline John

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OK. So you seem to be saying that after X time in the first series of "interviews" that she had never been confronted with the idea of "admittting" to an "accident" with a minor prison term as opposed to being charged with murder?

If you are barely literate, have been subjected to harrowing "interviews", you haven't a clue what's going on aside from the fact that your child is still missing, your pro-bono lawyers keep changing, WTF are you supposed to do?

Hmm...  lets see...tell the truth?    ?{)(**
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Offline Carana

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Hmm...  lets see...tell the truth?    ?{)(**

I know we disagree, John.

There's no way of knowing whether she was browbeaten into the old bluff that "confessing" to having accidentally killed her in a moment of anger would be far better than being charged with murder: a short sentence, two other young children at home who could stay with their dad, etc.

It may seem illogical for an innocent person to confess to a crime that they haven't committed, but these things happen. The conditions of her interrogation aren't clear at all. How long was she interrogated for that time? Was a lawyer present that entire time, or did she turn up once the "confession" had been extracted?

Was she mistreted during that time? "Roughed up", but chose not to say anything, believing the PJ that "confessing" to the lower charge was the best option? Deprived of sleep and "confessing" just to get the interrogation to stop?

There is the possibility that she really did confess voluntarily, of course. And we all know of cases of child abuse and even murder at the hand of parents, sadly.

However, there doesn't appear to be anything to substantiate it - it wasn't until many years later (after the McCann saga) that there was even a recommendation to audio record arguido interviews, and it's just a recommendation, and not even a video recording. At what point did her status change from being interviewed as a witness (no right at the time to a lawyer) and an arguida?

And then there is the issue that there was no concrete evidence to support what she is alleged to have "confessed" to... Plus the fact that the PJ watchdog had undertaken an investigation and, as a result, undertook disciplinary action against at least one of the officers (if not more, but such details are difficult to come by), and this way before the torture trial concerning a later interrogation.

At the very least, the conviction appears unsafe (IMO) for a whole host of reasons, and that includes public outrage over what the tabloid-reading public assumed were "facts" prior to trial, despite the so-called judicial secrecy, as presented in the pro-PJ tabloids.