Author Topic: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?  (Read 8388 times)

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Offline davel

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2015, 09:20:11 AM »
It's also odd that despite the fact that the judge found that she had been tortured no one faced prosecution for this offence  and consequently no McCann sceptic will accept that she was tortured.

The Portuguese court accepted she was tortured......that's what matters

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2015, 09:21:50 AM »
That is the most alarming aspect of the whole Cipriano conviction, that and the fact that Leonor's sentence was actually prolonged slightly because she was (later) deemed not to have got her story entirely straight while being tortured to a point of near blindness with a bag over her head ...

Wrong...she got the longer sentence because she initially claimed to have killed her daughter whilst also declaring that her brother Joćo was merely an accessory after the fact.  She and he were convicted on this basis.

The later revelation by Leonor Cipriano which she claimed was the whole truth and attempted to wipe the slate clean was not acted on.  This reveal claimed that it was Joćo who had the brainwave to get rich by selling the girl to some foreigners but that the handover went wrong and the unfortunate girl ended up dead.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:28:20 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline davel

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2015, 09:22:53 AM »
Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

What's your opinion on the torture

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2015, 09:23:43 AM »
Wrong...she got the longer sentence because she initially claimed to have killed her daughter whilst also declaring that her brother Joćo was merely an accessory after the fact.
Was this a claim made under torture?

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2015, 09:26:34 AM »
Not sure what point you're trying to make Carana. Even if there was a media frenzy in 2004/2005, and evidence of this has yet to be posted, are you saying the judge's were swayed by that frenzy ?

There was indeed a media frenzy (though possibly not quite to the extent of the Madeleine case). They were nearly lynched when taken to court to be charged.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3030.0

There was very little balanced reporting on the case - even during the trial, you'd be hard put to find a mention of the numerous testimonies that were neutral to positive about Leonor.

I don't know whether the judges were swayed or not.

When you have a judge saying that a rule of common experience is that children seen walking towards home do get back home, therefore it is considered proven that she did, and the fact that the entire court case, cramming in 40+ witness testimonies in just 3 days, based on the flimsiest of evidence, makes me wonder...

They may well have been and possibly also by the "experts" giving evidence. It seems quite complex, however, possibly in part due to the nature of the legal system. There doesn't appear to be any cross-examination (or at least not of the robust kind that many of us would expect). It simply wouldn't even have gone to trial in the UK.

There were no defence expert witnesses; the defence counsel doesn't even seem to have organised an independent psychiatric evaluation. There was a series of "we policemen, experts" statements on the forensics, none of which were challenged. Some of the so-called damning evidence was just plain silly, but was accepted as proven, because there was no counter expertise by the defence. The Algarve PJ didn't have a clue about forensics in 2007, so I really doubt that they were any more enlightened several years previously.

The defence lawyers assumed that the case would be thrown out due to a lack of evidence... but they hadn't counted on the judge ruling that the "reconstruction" was admissible.

Joćo had signed on the dotted line... so that was it. He couldn't then stand up to say he was coerced into it as the lawyers had already advised them not to take the stand (presumably to avoid their prior "confessions" from being read in court).

Leandro stated in an interview back in 2006 that he and others had been beaten; he also said that Joćo was acting strangely on the day of the reconstruction. His mother also said that the Faro lot were rough. There is no doubt that Leonor was battered in PJ custody.

I find it entirely possible that Joćo had been beaten or threatened into making that video.

Joćo Cipriano agreed to give his first interview, a written interview wherein he proclaimed his innocence. "I did nothing to my niece, Joana Guerreiro. I am innocent. I was threatened with knives to make that video that was shown in court. But it is all lies. The PJ came almost every day to the Olhćo prison where I was held to ask me where Joana was. And I, afraid of beatings, kept saying she was here or there, but it was a lie (...)"
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2969.msg106091#msg106091


Offline ferryman

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2015, 09:27:04 AM »
Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

Are these facts?

Or are these points made in Cristavio's (sp?) book?

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2015, 09:31:31 AM »
Was this a claim made under torture?

Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline davel

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2015, 09:33:00 AM »
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.

That isn't true..... Could you supply a source for that claim

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2015, 09:40:23 AM »
That isn't true..... Could you supply a source for that claim

Yes it is true and that is why the magistrate remanded her in custody while releasing Joćo on bail.  You really need to get past the fact that Leonor confessed to having killed her daughter, later retracted it after Marcos Correia took over the case and then blamed her brother for the killing.

Maybe you also want to bury your head in the sand in respect of the life the girl had in the years prior to her murder?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 10:06:15 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Benice

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2015, 09:45:18 AM »
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.

How strange that she apparently calmly confessed to the major crime of murder to the nice policemen - but then for some inexplicable reason would not say where the body was - even after the most brutal torture. 

There can only be one reason for that IMO -  which is because she didn't know,  because she didn't murder her daughter - and all the torturing in the world could not change that.

IMO It's nonsense to suggest that she would subject herself to such horrendous torture, once she had confessed to murder.   



The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimćo. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2015, 09:51:13 AM »
To make John's life easier... I'm taking my post over here.

Conveniently you ignored the fact that the missing girls shoes were found at home as were the items she purchased from the shop shortly before disappearing.  As if this wasn't enough, she was seen walking home by a female neighbour who saw her from her window vantage point.

Yes, she was seen walking towards home. And?

The child had been to a birthday party that day and may have been dressed up. The mother put out a poster mentioning shoes of whatever colour, let's say red. A pair of red shoes are later found in the home (quite some time after she disappeared). A single prosecution witness (who didn't even live there) stated that none of her shoes were missing. No one challenged her as to how she could have known how many pairs of shoes, flipflops, or whatever she had. Unless I've missed it (in which case, I stand corrected), no one asked the people at the party what shoes she was wearing. To double-check, but I'm not sure that the shop lady or the witness who saw her walking towards home noticed her footwear. No one asked Leandro about her shoes. If she liked that colour, did she have more than one pair?

It's entirely feasible that the child had simply gone off on her errand wearing flipflops and her mother hadn't noticed that she wasn't wearing the shoes that she assumed she had been wearing.

Offline davel

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2015, 09:52:03 AM »
Yes it is true and that is why the magistrate remanded her in custody while releasing Joćo on bail.  You really need to get past the fact that Leonor confessed to having killed her daughter, later retracted it after Marcos Correia took over the case and then blamed her brother for the killing.

Maybe you also want to bury your head in the sand in respect of the life the girl had in the years prior to her murder?


You claim it's true but cannot supply a source. As far as I remember this has been discussed before and is NOT true
Can you supply a source or is this statement just a myth


Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2015, 09:53:09 AM »
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.
So what is the evidence against her confession then?

Offline John

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2015, 09:56:27 AM »
How strange that she apparently calmly confessed to the major crime of murder to the nice policemen - but then for some inexplicable reason would not say where the body was - even after the most brutal torture. 

There can only be one reason for that IMO -  which is because she didn't know,  because she didn't murder her daughter - and all the torturing in the world could not change that.

IMO It's nonsense to suggest that she would subject herself to such horrendous torture, once she had confessed to murder.   

It really is very simple.  She claimed she had shaken Joana and accidentally hit her head against a wall.  She also claimed that it was Joćo who took the girls remains out the back door, this being the same Joćo who spent a week taking the PJ around various locations where he claimed the remains were buried.

You misunderstand the reason for the beating Benice.   The reason for the interrogation and unfortunate beating was to find the missing girl, not to extract a confession.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:58:34 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Did the PJ do a reconstitution after Joana Cipriano disappeared?
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2015, 09:57:14 AM »
Do read up on this case Alf,  she confessed before an examining magistrate BEFORE being remanded in custody ie before she was beaten.

This alleged initial confession (to a lesser charge) took place before the black and blue bashing session, yes. However, Leandro did state that she'd said she'd been beaten into it. In court he was asked if he'd noticed any bruising on her face or arms at that time, to which he replied that he hadn't.