Author Topic: Blood n heat...  (Read 2177 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

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Blood n heat...
« on: August 31, 2015, 08:57:29 PM »
Conventional serological analysis

"Analysis of the proteins, enzymes, and antigens present in the blood. These substances are more susceptible to degradation than DNA and this type of testing usually requires a "large" sample (quarter size) in good condition for optimal results. This type of testing is rarely statistically individualizing".

"Blood evidence must never be exposed to excessive heat or humidity. If possible, the bloodstained evidence should be refrigerated until it can be transported to the crime lab. The evidence should also be taken to the lab as soon as possible".

The blood in the silencer was analysed using conventional serological analysis producing the following results:

                             ABO                    PGM                  EAP                  AK                  Hp

Nevill Bamber         O                        PGM1+               EAP BA            AK1                 Hp2-1
June Bamber          A                         PGM1+               EAP BA            AK2-1              Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell          O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B              AK1                 Hp2
Nicholas Caffell       O                        PGM2+1+           EAP B              AK1                 Hp2
Sheila Caffell          A                         PGM1+               EAP BA            AK1                 Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blood In Silencer      A                        Nil                     EAP BA              AK1                Hp2-1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert Boutflour       A                        PGM1+               EAP BA              AK1               Hp2-1

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ABO = Blood Group System

PGM = Phosphoglucomutase (Enzyme) Breaks down quickly outside the body hence blood in silencer was unable to produce a reading

EAP = Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase (Enzyme)

AK = Adenylate Kinase (Enzyme)

HP = Haptoglobin (Protein)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many other exhibits were also analysed using conventional serological analysis:

- Carpet samples from main bedroom
- Wallpaper from wall near kitchen
- Rifle
- Blue socks
- NB's car seat
- JB's dressing gown
- JB's jacket

Blood on the above items was found to be either human in origin or only capable of limited results. The only exhibit capable of full serological analysis as per the table above was the silencer.  A possible explanation for this is that EP deliberately contaminated the silencer with SC's blood from her sample handed to EP by the pathologist and stored in EP's soc fridge at Chelmsford police station.  This would ensure good quality blood in prime condition as it was stored at the correct temperature and in sufficient quantity. 

If heat has the potential to destroy blood evidence how did the blood 'found' in the silencer produce full serological results as per the table above? 

I have previously posted up a youtube clip showing a silencer heating up to 390F after 30 rounds being fired through it but the bullets used were clearly more powerful than the bullets used at WHF based on the size of the magazine. 

The barrel of the rifle would also heat up but not as much as the silencer due to the hot gasses getting trapped in the silencer's expansion chamber and baffles. The CoA doc states after firing 25 rounds through the silencer it heated up to 24.5C/76.1F. The reason for this test was to establish how quickly the blood dried and whether it was possible for June's blood to dry and overlay NB's blood or vice-versa (irrelevant to this thread but just explaining the reason for the temp test).  The ITV documentary aired around March/April 2012 shows the rifle/silencer heated up after firing but no actual temperature was given.  It was shown to be insufficient to cause the burn marks to NB's back.  In CAL's book Dr V states that NB would have been mindful of not grabbing the rifle as it would be hot after firing and yet 24.5C would not be capable of causing any sort of skin burn?  Dr V also states in his interview with CAL that he is now of the opinion that the burn marks on NB's back were caused by the rifle.  Malcolm Fletcher states that he fired the rifle "loads of times" and grabbed the barrel and silencer but it would only warm up and wasn't hot enough to burn skin. 

John Hayward the biologist who carried out the blood analysis left FSS shortly after the murders at WHF and was in private practice at the time of trial.  His son David Hayward now runs the practice:

http://www.haywardforensics.co.uk/client-resources/professional-profiles/

I need to establish whether the blood 'found' in the silencer was capable of withstanding the heat from the silencer after firing AND ambient temperature over many days until it was analysed by FSS and still capable of producing the above results.

 &%+((£

...Hello David... 8**8:/:



Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Myster

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 09:13:08 PM »
Should that not be "Hello Sailor!"  8**8:/: ... and who's David, anyway!!!?  &%+((£
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2015, 09:31:55 PM »
Should that not be "Hello Sailor!"  8**8:/: ... and who's David, anyway!!!?  &%+((£

David son of John Hayward who now runs Hayward associates:

http://www.haywardforensics.co.uk/client-resources/professional-profiles/
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Myster

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2015, 09:33:04 PM »
You trying to wangle some free professional advice?
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2015, 08:31:53 AM »
You trying to wangle some free professional advice?

I wish... but no if the commercial rate isn't applied the expert witness could be seen as bias and lack credibility in court. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 09:07:55 PM »
I've recently stumbled across the attached doc.  It contains info from a Dr Harris at the lab in Hunts who was tasked with carrying out tests in connection with JB's first appeal hearing in 1989.  The tests involve Dr Harris placing blood inside a silencer and firing the rifle 25 x's to check what effect, if any, this had on blood test results.  According to Dr Harris the tests showed the blood was not adversely affected (hope I've got my effects/affects the right way round  8)><() and was still able to consistently produce reliable test results. 

I understand the reason the rifle was fired 25 x's is that in 1988 JB's defence still considered the blood flake was heterogeneous representing an intimate mix of NB and June's blood from gsw's sustained at any stage.  I do not believe a heterogeneous blood flake is possible in this case.  Anyway that's by the by the whole point is that according to Dr Harris the blood withstood repeated firing from the rifle and was still capable of producing reliable blood test results.

Here a renowned US pathologist, Dr Di Maio, who specialises in gsw's wrote in a book he authored:

Blood may be detected in the barrel even after the weapon has been
discharged. In a study of 25 revolvers and 36 pistols, in 40% of revolvers and
in 42% of pistols, blood was detected after one test firing.  More remarkable
was the fact that blood was still detected in 16% of revolvers and 25% of
pistols after a second shot was fired.


Based on the above detecting blood in the barrel seems to diminish after every discharge and yet Dr Harris above said not only was he able to detect blood but the blood test results were not compromised after the rifle had been discharged 25 x's.  I appreciate the above is not like-for-like eg the above uses unsilenced handguns but surely it is the effect (or affect) of the discharge in terms of propellant and primer that would adversely effect (or affect) the blood? 

I think this is one for Scipio. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 09:14:07 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2017, 06:07:21 AM »

If heat has the potential to destroy blood evidence how did the blood 'found' in the silencer produce full serological results as per the table above? 

Just because it has the potential to damage blood evidence doesn't mean it will. By definition potential means possible.

They obtained results in other moderators as well not just the one connected to this case.  Thus is it documented that blood can survive in a moderator. 

We had this same discussion several times in the past.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2017, 06:23:55 AM »
I've recently stumbled across the attached doc.  It contains info from a Dr Harris at the lab in Hunts who was tasked with carrying out tests in connection with JB's first appeal hearing in 1989.  The tests involve Dr Harris placing blood inside a silencer and firing the rifle 25 x's to check what effect, if any, this had on blood test results.  According to Dr Harris the tests showed the blood was not adversely affected (hope I've got my effects/affects the right way round  8)><() and was still able to consistently produce reliable test results. 

I understand the reason the rifle was fired 25 x's is that in 1988 JB's defence still considered the blood flake was heterogeneous representing an intimate mix of NB and June's blood from gsw's sustained at any stage.  I do not believe a heterogeneous blood flake is possible in this case.  Anyway that's by the by the whole point is that according to Dr Harris the blood withstood repeated firing from the rifle and was still capable of producing reliable blood test results.

Here a renowned US pathologist, Dr Di Maio, who specialises in gsw's wrote in a book he authored:

Blood may be detected in the barrel even after the weapon has been
discharged. In a study of 25 revolvers and 36 pistols, in 40% of revolvers and
in 42% of pistols, blood was detected after one test firing.  More remarkable
was the fact that blood was still detected in 16% of revolvers and 25% of
pistols after a second shot was fired.


Based on the above detecting blood in the barrel seems to diminish after every discharge and yet Dr Harris above said not only was he able to detect blood but the blood test results were not compromised after the rifle had been discharged 25 x's.  I appreciate the above is not like-for-like eg the above uses unsilenced handguns but surely it is the effect (or affect) of the discharge in terms of propellant and primer that would adversely effect (or affect) the blood? 

I think this is one for Scipio.

You left out the part where there was still blood detected even after 4 plus shots fired.  In any event that refers to rifled barrels. A bullet touches the side of the rifled barrel and thus will take some of the blood that touches the bullet with it. In particular the blood gets in the rifling and the bullet is scored by that rifling thus deposiing some of the blood on the bullet.

We are talking about a moderator where the bullet doesn't touch the sides.  Moreover, the blood was on the front of the baffles so not anywhere near the path of the bullet and the GSR would hit the back not front of the plates if it did hit the plates.

In any event the contact shot to Sheila was the last shot fired, that's the shot that killed her. So even if we were talking about a gun barrel rather than moderator it makes no difference no shots were fired after that to clear it out. 

If it were a rifle barrel we are discussing then in that case the more shots fired after June was killed the less likely her blood still would have remained inside even if she had suffered a contact shot.  This would then tend to undermine the defense supposition the blood was June's.  But blood has still been found after more than 4 shots so you never know less likely doesn't mean impossible.

You want absolutes but there are few of those.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 06:25:37 AM »
I think this is one for Scipio.

.... but surely it is the effect (n) of the discharge in terms of propellant and primer that would adversely affect (v) the blood? (or would have an adverse effect (n) on the blood)

... and Emily Brewster.
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/affect-vs-effect

Merriam-Webster's other vids are informative too... https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/see-all
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline adam

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 06:51:21 AM »
Both guilters & supporters agree it was human blood in the silencer. There was no blood or paint at the end of the rifle which means the silencer was on the rifle. This rules out Sheila as she would not bother to put on the silencer if Nevill was already awake. Assuming she knew how to.

Sheila would also not bother putting the silencer away. In a box at the back of the  gun cupboard. One of Sheila's shots being a contact shot and the evidence stating it was her blood in the silencer makes it impossible for her to have done this anyway.

The evidence that it is Sheila's blood shows Bamber is guilty. Although there have been claims that two silencers were used to frame Bamber, that Stan Jones took Sheila's blood to frame Bamber & that RB found out he had a similar blood type to Sheila & shot himself with the silencer on.

Offline John

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 03:39:49 PM »
Both guilters & supporters agree it was human blood in the silencer. There was no blood or paint at the end of the rifle which means the silencer was on the rifle. This rules out Sheila as she would not bother to put on the silencer if Nevill was already awake. Assuming she knew how to.

Sheila would also not bother putting the silencer away. In a box at the back of the  gun cupboard. One of Sheila's shots being a contact shot and the evidence stating it was her blood in the silencer makes it impossible for her to have done this anyway.

The evidence that it is Sheila's blood shows Bamber is guilty. Although there have been claims that two silencers were used to frame Bamber, that Stan Jones took Sheila's blood to frame Bamber & that RB found out he had a similar blood type to Sheila & shot himself with the silencer on.

I think we can put Tesko's framed rubbish safety to bed.   He has a personal vendetta with the police over what happened to him in his youth so any view he has is tainted by that experience.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 04:06:00 AM »
Both guilters & supporters agree it was human blood in the silencer. There was no blood or paint at the end of the rifle which means the silencer was on the rifle. This rules out Sheila as she would not bother to put on the silencer if Nevill was already awake. Assuming she knew how to.

Sheila would also not bother putting the silencer away. In a box at the back of the  gun cupboard. One of Sheila's shots being a contact shot and the evidence stating it was her blood in the silencer makes it impossible for her to have done this anyway.

The evidence that it is Sheila's blood shows Bamber is guilty. Although there have been claims that two silencers were used to frame Bamber, that Stan Jones took Sheila's blood to frame Bamber & that RB found out he had a similar blood type to Sheila & shot himself with the silencer on.

I don't believe the silencer evidence but there's some crazy stuff that surrounds it:

AH in CTSB alludes to animal blood. 

Lol
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2017, 04:27:42 AM »
.... but surely it is the effect (n) of the discharge in terms of propellant and primer that would adversely affect (v) the blood? (or would have an adverse effect (n) on the blood)

... and Emily Brewster.
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/affect-vs-effect

Merriam-Webster's other vids are informative too... https://www.merriam-webster.com/video/see-all

Thanks.  I think I need to pm you for some private tuition. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2017, 05:02:48 AM »
You left out the part where there was still blood detected even after 4 plus shots fired.  In any event that refers to rifled barrels. A bullet touches the side of the rifled barrel and thus will take some of the blood that touches the bullet with it. In particular the blood gets in the rifling and the bullet is scored by that rifling thus deposiing some of the blood on the bullet.

We are talking about a moderator where the bullet doesn't touch the sides.  Moreover, the blood was on the front of the baffles so not anywhere near the path of the bullet and the GSR would hit the back not front of the plates if it did hit the plates.

In any event the contact shot to Sheila was the last shot fired, that's the shot that killed her. So even if we were talking about a gun barrel rather than moderator it makes no difference no shots were fired after that to clear it out. 

If it were a rifle barrel we are discussing then in that case the more shots fired after June was killed the less likely her blood still would have remained inside even if she had suffered a contact shot.  This would then tend to undermine the defense supposition the blood was June's.  But blood has still been found after more than 4 shots so you never know less likely doesn't mean impossible.

You want absolutes but there are few of those.

After 4 plus shots?  I've arrived at 3 shots?  We are talking about the excerpt from Dr DiMaio above?

But surely it is the hot discharge gases that affect any blood drawn into a barrel/silencer rather than the exiting of subsequent bullets per se?  I'm thinking of the attached GIF.  David1819 thinks any blood drawn in remains protected as per attached image which doesn't seem to reconcile with GIF?

Yes I appreciate Dr Harris' test of 25 x discharges bears no resemblance to SC's contact shot but I'm questioning the validity of the test which MIGHT indicate something awry at lab.  When I consider the % reductions in Dr DiMaio's test after 3/4 shots it seems unlikely any blood would be detected after 25 shots.  Yet Dr Harris is saying not only did he detect blood after 25 shots but the integrity of the blood was uncompromised in terms of typing and I have a big question mark about this.

I have had communication with arguably the world's expert on blood serology:

Sorry I have not responded earlier, but things have been very busy here.  The amount of stain used seems about right to get a result. The stability of the genetic markers that were conducted on the1/4 inch flake of blood are all well within the expected results time frame.  ABO is good for about two years at ambient temperatures and is the longest for the series of five markers you listed.  Haptoglobin and PGM would be the next at about a year, and AK & EAP are about six months.  This is, of course, is for dried stains that have not been environmentally insulted by temperature or humidity.  XXXX would not have the capability of a fingerprint chamber or to test fire a weapon at our facility.

Email forwarded to Myster for verification. 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Myster

Re: Blood n heat...
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2017, 05:45:21 AM »
Are you filling up my inbox again!!  Yes, of course the letter is genuine, we're not that sceptical, Holly!
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986