Author Topic: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.  (Read 8904 times)

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Offline Passer-by

Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« on: September 02, 2015, 01:00:13 AM »
The objective facts show he sold gold at a dodgy jewellers hours before the murder whilst he was in the company of Tongo for 45 minutes, in addition to the holiday money he took with him and the cash he had already withdrawn from an ATM on his bank card.

The objective facts are that no-one knows how much money he got from that illegal transaction nor how he disposed of it.

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« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 09:38:54 PM by John »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2015, 07:17:48 AM »
What do you say about both parties to the alleged "agreement" forgetting about the most crucial component - the money?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:31:21 PM by John »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2015, 07:30:39 AM »
The objective facts show he sold gold at a dodgy jewellers hours before the murder whilst he was in the company of Tongo for 45 minutes, in addition to the holiday money he took with him and the cash he had already withdrawn from an ATM on his bank card.

The objective facts are that no-one knows how much money he got from that illegal transaction nor how he disposed of it.

Let's all take a moment to behold Passer-by's example of "objective facts". Dewani said it was GBP. The shop owner said it was $US. The shop worker said it was gold. Three different stories and this poster chooses one and labels it "objective fact".

The icing on the cake is the fact that this same poster cannot explain why it would even benefit Dewani to lie about what currency he changed. It's a dead end line of inquiry that does not get us any closer to truth.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:32:38 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2015, 09:54:14 AM »
Let's all take a moment to behold Passer-by's example of "objective facts". Dewani said it was GBP. The shop owner said it was $US. The shop worker said it was gold. Three different stories and this poster chooses one and labels it "objective fact".

The icing on the cake is the fact that this same poster cannot explain why it would even benefit Dewani to lie about what currency he changed. It's a dead end line of inquiry that does not get us any closer to truth.


I've dealt with the illegal money transaction in the other thread, and I explained that it was not recorded by the shop and no receipt was issued, so it isn't just a 'missing statement oh whoops my filing is crap' it is actually illegal

I also pointed out the amount the shop owner said he 'changed' was different to the amount Dewani said he changed, So already facts aren't adding up.

And then I explained that the normal thing to do would be to go into the bank next door and either change it there or draw money out from the UK at an ATM - and this was also normal for Dewani himself as he had already done this several times. 

I pointed out the business owner had a motive to lie about it being a currency exchange because it is a less serious offence not to record currency exchanges than it is to smuggle gold, but she didn't know that Dewani had said 'sterling' when she said dollars, and then had to stick to that point, vehemently contradicting Dewani when she appeared in court. 

And finally I pointed out that the only person with no reason to lie was Thelma, the assistant who actually carried the gold to the trader in the back of that shop and brought the money back:  that's all her job is, in my experience we can trust her when in her police statement she said gold and it is typical of her white South African boss to pull rank. 

As the purpose of the shop is ostensibly to buy and sell second hand precious metals - not even just jewelry - and as I can (irritatingly for you) give you the benefit of my experience of having been in it and can say it is quite unlike any respectable jewellers I've visited in South Africa - its window is barred, the shop is dirty and dingy, they turn customers away at the locked, barred door and they refuse to sell items in their window - we can draw the logical conclusion that he did indeed sell gold not trade currency.

And the only reason for doing that is to have 'secret' money that has no audit trail with either the taxman or the police.  In Dewani's case we can draw our own conclusions as to why a millionaire who drew out 800 in local currency from an ATM also needs secret cash whilst in the company of a man later implicated in the murder of his wife.

And I've explained this before and repeatedly you don't address it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:36:02 PM by John »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2015, 10:59:59 AM »
I have addressed your non-evidence regarding the jewellery shop about five times in the other thread. It is not my fault that you choose to ignore the explanations in favour of repeating your non-evidence over and over.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:41:35 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2015, 11:19:15 AM »
I have addressed your non-evidence regarding the jewellery shop about five times in the other thread. It is not my fault that you choose to ignore the explanations in favour of repeating your non-evidence over and over.


There is no explanation as to what Dewani was doing organising secret extra money* in addition to his cashpoint withdrawals*, and no-one, let alone you, has ever provided evidence of what he spent it on*.  Let's face it, you can't:  you don't even know how much it was because it is unrecorded.*
________________________________
 * facts.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:41:54 PM by John »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2015, 11:44:03 AM »

There is no explanation as to what Dewani was doing organising secret extra money* in addition to his cashpoint withdrawals*, and no-one, let alone you, has ever provided evidence of what he spent it on*.  Let's face it, you can't:  you don't even know how much it was because it is unrecorded.*
________________________________
 * facts.

He converted a bundle of foreign currency to Rand and withdrew further Rand from a cash machine. Neither of those are abnormal or special occurrences for a traveller. As for what he spent it on; how is that relevant?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:44:36 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2015, 11:51:40 AM »
He converted a bundle of foreign currency to Rand and withdrew further Rand from a cash machine. Neither of those are abnormal or special occurrences for a traveller. As for what he spent it on; how is that relevant?

It is a fact that the transaction was not recorded and it is a fact he went out of his way to go to a place where cash can be obtained without an audit trail:  just focus on the fact that Dewani obtained an unspecified amount of money without an audit trail whilst in the company of someone implicated in his wife's murder on the day of the murder itself
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:45:45 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2015, 12:27:09 PM »
It is a fact that the transaction was not recorded and it is a fact he went out of his way to go to a place where cash can be obtained without an audit trail:  just focus on the fact that Dewani obtained an unspecified amount of money without an audit trail whilst in the company of someone implicated in his wife's murder on the day of the murder itself

Let me help you stay on track Dewanifacts - you said in a post to Mercury that there was no monetary agreement between Dewani and Tongo, I've proved he had secret cash in addition to normal transactions and you don't know what he did with it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:49:53 PM by John »

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2015, 12:43:50 PM »
Superb. What does your mind say about both parties to the alleged "agreement" forgetting about the most crucial component - the money?

Jigging your memory again - the most crucial component - the money:  I have answered that for you.

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 01:21:26 PM »
It is common cause fact that Tongo did not check if the money was in the glove box and that Dewani did not have the "agreed" R15000 with him in the car. Those facts are not in dispute.

What money Dewani withdrew, spent, saved, gambled, donated or invested is irrelevant to this discussion.

Your oddball label of "secret cash" has already been debunked. There was nothing secret about it.

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 02:58:01 PM »
It is common cause fact that Tongo did not check if the money was in the glove box and that Dewani did not have the "agreed" R15000 with him in the car. Those facts are not in dispute.

What money Dewani withdrew, spent, saved, gambled, donated or invested is irrelevant to this discussion.

Your oddball label of "secret cash" has already been debunked. There was nothing secret about it.

Ok, I can go 'on loop' as well.

1). Dewani conducted normal cash transactions at ATMs and a Bureau de Change.  But he also conducted the illegal trade at the jewellers - that is an absolute fact.

2). Dewani was with Tongo for 45 minutes whilst he did the illegal trade - that is absolute fact.

3).  Dewani was secretive about the illegal trade:  he suggested his wife phone her family whilst he went out and then he conducted his business not at the banks right next to him, where he did normal monetary transactions, but in a seedier part of town a few minutes drive away.  He then forgot to mention it to Police and his brother tried to obtain the damning CCTV footage showing him departing and returning with Tongo - absolute fact.

4).  Dewani's movements and his money were investigated after the murder, to see whether he had taken money with him to pay a killer:  banks have to cooperate with criminal investigations and will have provided detailed transactions of all his legitimate non-cash money transactions, credit card payments and cash withdrawals, all detailing precise times, dates and locations of what he was doing.  Whilst they were doing this, just as Dewani 'forgot' to mention the cash he had in the car whilst secretly texting Tongo about giving him cash (even whilst his wife was sitting next to him on her way to her murder) Dewani also forgot to mention this illegal cash transaction at the jewellers which gave him extra cash without an audit trail, so in fact he did have the means to pay a hitman.  We only found out about it because the investigators looked at his movements on CCTV:  that's secretive - fact.

5).  There is NO RECORD of what Dewani traded in the jewellers nor how much cash he took away.  I located the information and reports from court that there were 3 versions of what happened, not you:  you are completely biased in giving weight to Dewani's version that he changed folded sterling notes.  Dewani clearly behaved secretively over this transaction and possibly has good reason to lie about it, as it would give him the funds to pay a hitman.  You have provided no evidence at all to suggest Thelma was a dishonest person nor a motive for her to say it was gold that Dewani traded not cash.  Thelma is a completely independent witness with no interest in the matter at all:  there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve her - fact.

To say this transaction was even normal, let alone above board is not even delusional, it is a lie.  Likewise to say there was nothing secretive about it - that's just laughable!

« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 03:30:32 PM by Passer-by »

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 04:03:01 PM »
Ok, I can go 'on loop' as well.

1). Dewani conducted normal cash transactions at ATMs and a Bureau de Change.  But he also conducted the illegal trade at the jewellers - that is an absolute fact.

2). Dewani was with Tongo for 45 minutes whilst he did the illegal trade - that is absolute fact.

3).  Dewani was secretive about the illegal trade:  he suggested his wife phone her family whilst he went out and then he conducted his business not at the banks right next to him, where he did normal monetary transactions, but in a seedier part of town a few minutes drive away.  He then forgot to mention it to Police and his brother tried to obtain the damning CCTV footage showing him departing and returning with Tongo - absolute fact.

4).  Dewani's movements and his money were investigated after the murder, to see whether he had taken money with him to pay a killer:  banks have to cooperate with criminal investigations and will have provided detailed transactions of all his legitimate non-cash money transactions, credit card payments and cash withdrawals, all detailing precise times, dates and locations of what he was doing.  Whilst they were doing this, just as Dewani 'forgot' to mention the cash he had in the car whilst secretly texting Tongo about giving him cash (even whilst his wife was sitting next to him on her way to her murder) Dewani also forgot to mention this illegal cash transaction at the jewellers which gave him extra cash without an audit trail, so in fact he did have the means to pay a hitman.  We only found out about it because the investigators looked at his movements on CCTV:  that's secretive - fact.

5).  There is NO RECORD of what Dewani traded in the jewellers nor how much cash he took away.  I located the information and reports from court that there were 3 versions of what happened, not you:  you are completely biased in giving weight to Dewani's version that he changed folded sterling notes.  Dewani clearly behaved secretively over this transaction and possibly has good reason to lie about it, as it would give him the funds to pay a hitman.  You have provided no evidence at all to suggest Thelma was a dishonest person nor a motive for her to say it was gold that Dewani traded not cash.  Thelma is a completely independent witness with no interest in the matter at all:  there is absolutely no reason to disbelieve her - fact.

To say this transaction was even normal, let alone above board is not even delusional, it is a lie.  Likewise to say there was nothing secretive about it - that's just laughable!

The only thing that this silly line of reasoning proves is that the jewellery store carried out an illegal transaction. Be that on them. Dewani's involvement can be explained in a few words; he asked Tongo to take him somewhere to get a good exchange rate, and Tongo took him to that jewellery store.

To suggest that it was "secretive" is classic conspiracy theorist logic. That money change trip could never be a secret. Aside from the shop owner, Thelma and Tongo, there were also other people in the shop, one of whom was a female whose phone number Tongo charmed out of her on the spot!

Offline dewanifacts

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 04:10:01 PM »
there were 3 versions of what happened, not you:  you are completely biased in giving weight to Dewani's version that he changed folded sterling notes.  Dewani clearly behaved secretively over this transaction and possibly has good reason to lie about it, as it would give him the funds to pay a hitman. 

I don't give any weight to Dewani's version. I merely point out that there are indeed three different versions of events - two of them coming from employees of a shop that is engaging in illegal trade.

You still have not attempted to explain why Dewani would lie about what currency he was changing. That logic would only make sense if Dewani was trying to deny changing money at all, but that clearly was not the case.

Can you explain it?

Offline Passer-by

Re: Dewani and the Golden Touch jewellers.
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 04:24:00 PM »
I don't give any weight to Dewani's version. I merely point out that there are indeed three different versions of events - two of them coming from employees of a shop that is engaging in illegal trade.

You still have not attempted to explain why Dewani would lie about what currency he was changing. That logic would only make sense if Dewani was trying to deny changing money at all, but that clearly was not the case.

Can you explain it?

I have explained it repeatedly:  I have repeatedly told you that shop trades gold - that's why it is called a 'jewellers' not a 'bureau de change' or a 'bank' - The First National Bank was literally 4 metres away.  And I have also clearly explained that there is no audit trail for the cash:  his bank accounts were audited to see whether he could have paid for a hitman.  So of course, if you're going to pay a hitman, you would want cash that is untraceable and has not been audited.  And you can fly into South Africa from India wearing a nice gold watch and take it to certain 'jewellers' and they will give you cash - and they don't write it down in their audited accounts, and you don't write it down in yours.  Well era in the CBD used to be well known for it:  I recall The Lonely Planet Guide when I first went down actually advised against buying jewellery in them because so many were passing off fenced goods.