Author Topic: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?  (Read 1118 times)

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Offline Miss Taken Identity

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2017, 03:58:00 PM »
Sheila was an innocent victim of a ruthless killer.

Yes , I was thinking that the ruthless killer was blaming his sister as some Lizzie Borden figure.

His behaviour is bizarre, am I to understand he cooked 'full English' as police arrived to speak to him about the killings?  This certainly looks like it was someone who knew this family who commited this henious crime.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2017, 05:21:32 PM »
Yes , I was thinking that the ruthless killer was blaming his sister as some Lizzie Borden figure.

His behaviour is bizarre, am I to understand he cooked 'full English' as police arrived to speak to him about the killings?  This certainly looks like it was someone who knew this family who commited this henious crime.

I think this is a case where the truth will be found by analysing the significant quantity of physical evidence at soc not the behaviour of others.  It is now evident from expert witness trial testimony that by today's standards it was lacking.  Science and technology move on along with the quality of expert evidence.   
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2017, 05:41:57 PM »
am I to understand he cooked 'full English' as police arrived to speak to him about the killings?

I have no idea what that means. I have heard a lot of British vernacular but this is new.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2017, 06:10:20 PM »
I think this is a case where the truth will be found by analysing the significant quantity of physical evidence at soc not the behaviour of others.  It is now evident from expert witness trial testimony that by today's standards it was lacking.  Science and technology move on along with the quality of expert evidence.

The truth was found, using modern science he would have been even more screwed the blood they removed would have been DNA tested to prove it was sheilas and would have taken away his claim at trial that it was a mixture of June and Nevill instead of Sheila's.  Furthermore they would have realized before trial instead of after that he stuck the Bible in a pool of blood that formed after her death and would have done a better job of explaining how the parents were attacked in the bedroom as the initial event further dashing his claims of receiving a distress call.

At one point he suggested that Sheila forced Nevill to make the call to lure him there. He said he feared that is what happened.  It could very well be he hoped police would think that.  That's actually MORE logical than Nevill deciding to summon him on his own volition.  But it would not be consistent with her simply going into a crazy rage that requires a lot of thought on her part.


His best bet would have been to leave Sheila sleeping alive. Call police saying Nevill called to say she was  shooting everyone and screaming that her kids and parents were holding her back from becoming a super model. If taken alive the police would think she did it not consider that Jeremy did it and snuck out.  The suicide detracted from things that is not characteristic while the attacks under the delusion they were holding her back could be.


As the killer she would not be able to inherit so he would get everything anyway. Of course she would say she didn't do it but it would be hard to get police to believe her. The suicide not only didn't fit any known paradigms it is what ruined things most of all given her blood in the moderator. With her not dead, her blood would not have been inside it. Hindsight is 20/20 though.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Caroline

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2017, 06:15:58 PM »
I have no idea what that means. I have heard a lot of British vernacular but this is new.

Full English = a full English breakfast.

Offline John

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2017, 06:28:44 PM »
Full English = a full English breakfast.

Hmm...yes.  Mummy, daddy, little sis and my two child nephews lie bloodied and slain in their home a short distance away but some sausages, egg and a bit of bacon will go down nicely.  Anyone for black pud?
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Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2017, 06:40:01 PM »
The truth was found, using modern science he would have been even more screwed the blood they removed would have been DNA tested to prove it was sheilas and would have taken away his claim at trial that it was a mixture of June and Nevill instead of Sheila's.  Furthermore they would have realized before trial instead of after that he stuck the Bible in a pool of blood that formed after her death and would have done a better job of explaining how the parents were attacked in the bedroom as the initial event further dashing his claims of receiving a distress call.

At one point he suggested that Sheila forced Nevill to make the call to lure him there. He said he feared that is what happened.  It could very well be he hoped police would think that.  That's actually MORE logical than Nevill deciding to summon him on his own volition.  But it would not be consistent with her simply going into a crazy rage that requires a lot of thought on her part.


His best bet would have been to leave Sheila sleeping alive. Call police saying Nevill called to say she was  shooting everyone and screaming that her kids and parents were holding her back from becoming a super model. If taken alive the police would think she did it not consider that Jeremy did it and snuck out.  The suicide detracted from things that is not characteristic while the attacks under the delusion they were holding her back could be.


As the killer she would not be able to inherit so he would get everything anyway. Of course she would say she didn't do it but it would be hard to get police to believe her. The suicide not only didn't fit any known paradigms it is what ruined things most of all given her blood in the moderator. With her not dead, her blood would not have been inside it. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

You mean the so-called ballistics expert who took to the stand and told the court part of his relevant experience involved a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy!?  8)-)))

I've read MF's trial testimony once but only quickly.  Thereafter I've referred back to various points.  But I can't once recall reading the word trajectory.  By today's standards it is woeful.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2017, 06:43:34 PM »
Full English = a full English breakfast.

Thanks that helps a lot!
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2017, 07:11:46 PM »
You mean the so-called ballistics expert who took to the stand and told the court part of his relevant experience involved a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy!?  8)-)))

I've read MF's trial testimony once but only quickly.  Thereafter I've referred back to various points.  But I can't once recall reading the word trajectory.  By today's standards it is woeful.

Vanezis spoke to the trajectory of the wounds. He was the one who examined the bodies so in a position to do so.

Fletcher wasn't a reconstruction expert he was an expert in guns and bullets.  His job was to examine the bullets. SOME ballistic experts are cross trained in reconstruction particularly today.  In the past it was much more narrow.   But we still have experts with narrow fields and sometimes see 20 experts in a case it just depends.

Could they have found someone to help talk about the trajectory such as how Nevill was seated when shot in the face?  Yes.  Why didn't they? Either they didn't think of it or didn't think it was important to bother. They could have felt the evidence was sufficient and that such would not be necessary.  I would have played up more how the call made no sense and was contradicted by the evidence of how things went down but they didn't either because they didn't realize it or didn't look hard enough for an expert to help them. When people think they have enough evidence they don't go out and get more experts. Granted we know more today than then but it was not the stone ages they had the expertise at the time if they looked hard enough for the right experts. Necessity is the mother of invention. They got the conviction without it so didn't have the necessity. 

Fletcher's main purpose was to confirm the Anschutz fired all the bullets (prove it was the murder weapon) and to confirm sheila had been killed with the moderator.  That's his only real role in obtaining the conviction. 

You are comparing the modern era where a ballistic expert will go to the scene and look at the scene and victims and help with the crime reconstruction with an older era where they examined bullets and weapons in a lab simply. Using modern techniques Jeremy would have been even worse off not better. The less sophisticated an investigation is the easier for something like he planned to work. The blood in the moderator illustrates that pretty well. The police left what turned out to be crucial evidence. The rime scene police did not take all the, bullets, firearms and firearms accessories.  That is where there should be criticism. That seems indefensible. They thought the killer was dead so didn't do what they should have.

 

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2017, 12:17:15 PM »
I see Mike Tesko is claiming JB told him June had a black eye on the 6th Aug.  Yet JB failed to mention this in his WS of 7th Aug.  It seems Caroline asked JB about June's black eye and JB said June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.   

Dr Vanezis said June's black eye was caused by gunshot - see attached.

At best someone is mistaken at worst someone is lying:

AE - who said JB told her June had a black eye on 6th Aug

"On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, "I hit a post.

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

JB - no mention of June sustaining a black eye in any of his WS's or interviews.  And according to Caroline JB told her June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.

Mike - claims JB told him June had a black eye on 6th Aug.

So AE and Mike agree JB said June had a black eye on 6th Aug.   &%+((£
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Myster

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2017, 12:40:06 PM »
So AE and Mike agree JB said June had a black eye on 6th Aug.   &%+((£

No they don't!   Tesko's black eye is more complex than that.
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Caroline

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2017, 02:15:36 PM »
I see Mike Tesko is claiming JB told him June had a black eye on the 6th Aug.  Yet JB failed to mention this in his WS of 7th Aug.  It seems Caroline asked JB about June's black eye and JB said June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.   

Dr Vanezis said June's black eye was caused by gunshot - see attached.

At best someone is mistaken at worst someone is lying:

AE - who said JB told her June had a black eye on 6th Aug

"On one part of his statement he told the police officers that Aunt June Bamber had black eye and when Jeremy had asked her to account for it she had apparently said, "I hit a post.

Jeremy told the officers that he thought that there was more to her injury but Aunt June Bamber was not going to tell him.

I formed the opinion that Jeremy was insinuating that Sheila had hit Aunt June Bamber.  I asked the police officers if my Aunt June Bamber had a black eye but they couldn't tell me".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=2199

JB - no mention of June sustaining a black eye in any of his WS's or interviews.  And according to Caroline JB told her June didn't have a black eye on 6th Aug.

Mike - claims JB told him June had a black eye on 6th Aug.

So AE and Mike agree JB said June had a black eye on 6th Aug.   &%+((£

His actual words were 'I don't believe mum had a back eye'. As far as I am concerned, it's clear he lied. Two people (or more) heard him state that June had a black eye, she did indeed have a black eye and although Jeremy was supposed to be suspicious in respect to how June received it, we're supposed to believe that he chose not to pursue that matter? Rubbish! It's not something he would forget about either (as someone suggested on the blue forum). He lied about it - his reason? God knows but he does himself no favours.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2017, 03:21:18 PM »
His actual words were 'I don't believe mum had a back eye'. As far as I am concerned, it's clear he lied. Two people (or more) heard him state that June had a black eye, she did indeed have a black eye and although Jeremy was supposed to be suspicious in respect to how June received it, we're supposed to believe that he chose not to pursue that matter? Rubbish! It's not something he would forget about either (as someone suggested on the blue forum). He lied about it - his reason? God knows but he does himself no favours.


If June got out of bed before Jeremy left the room then Jeremy clearly had to get past his mom to get out of the room. She could have actively physically confronted him or simply have been in his way.  Either way he likely struck her.  If this did occur then no wonder he lied about her having the black eye prior.

It doesn't matter if the bullet actually caused the black eye or not.  Upon hearing shortly after the murders that she had a black eye his perception at the time would be that he caused it when he struck her.  To try to conceal that there was an altercation with her he would make up that she had a black eye prior.

Since no one ever figured out there was an altercation with June he had no need to continue with such lie and probably forgot he even told it back in the day.  Liars are very bad at remembering the lie they told last let alone lies they told years earlier.

The reverse is far less likely but still theoretically possible. He could have been telling the truth about her having a black eye prior but subsequently decided to lie and say she didn't to provide more fodder for the conspiracy theorists who support him.   
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Caroline

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2017, 03:53:55 PM »

If June got out of bed before Jeremy left the room then Jeremy clearly had to get past his mom to get out of the room. She could have actively physically confronted him or simply have been in his way.  Either way he likely struck her.  If this did occur then no wonder he lied about her having the black eye prior.

It doesn't matter if the bullet actually caused the black eye or not.  Upon hearing shortly after the murders that she had a black eye his perception at the time would be that he caused it when he struck her.  To try to conceal that there was an altercation with her he would make up that she had a black eye prior.

Since no one ever figured out there was an altercation with June he had no need to continue with such lie and probably forgot he even told it back in the day.  Liars are very bad at remembering the lie they told last let alone lies they told years earlier.

The reverse is far less likely but still theoretically possible. He could have been telling the truth about her having a black eye prior but subsequently decided to lie and say she didn't to provide more fodder for the conspiracy theorists who support him.   

It could also be that he realised that he was the only one who saw it, which limits the time it could have occurred.  Had it been only AE who mentioned it in her WS he could have passed it off as 'Ann making it up'. However, now Mike has told the same story, it adds weight to Ann statement. But him telling me that he didn't believe she had a black eye makes it all the more suspicious.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Did June Suffer A Black Eye Prior to 7th Aug?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2017, 04:45:02 PM »
It could also be that he realised that he was the only one who saw it, which limits the time it could have occurred.  Had it been only AE who mentioned it in her WS he could have passed it off as 'Ann making it up'. However, now Mike has told the same story, it adds weight to Ann statement. But him telling me that he didn't believe she had a black eye makes it all the more suspicious.

He lied to the family on a number of occasions. I see it as more likely he lied to AE about the blackeye predating the murders than he decided to be honest with AE about the black eye predating the murders and later decided to lie by saying it didn't.


Mike is a bigger liar than Jeremy so is useless.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli