Author Topic: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates  (Read 28586 times)

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Offline mrswah

Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« on: September 10, 2016, 01:22:37 AM »
I have doubts about whether Vincent Tabak is actually guilty.  Yes, I know he may well be, and I am not accusing anyone else, but I have questions, that I hope some of you may be able to answer:
Firstly, yes, I know he made a confession, but how do we know he didn't make it under duress?

Why was it necessary  to employ a team of fire engines and a crane to retrieve Joanna's body? (The Daily Mail carried a photo of this at the time).

Why was Tabak's DNA not found in Joanna's flat, if (as was claimed in court) he killed her there?

What evidence is there that he had her body in the boot of his car when he went to ASDA?

How do we know exactly what he searched on his computer, and do computer searches necessarily make one a murderer? (I think the police would have a field day if they looked at mine!!)

Why, once the police had Tabak's DNA, (or so they said) ,did they not release Christopher Jefferies immediately?

Why did neither Jefferies, nor Tanja Morson, nor Tabak's boss, appear in court to testify as to his character?

Ok, so these are some of my questions.  I would be happier about Tabak's conviction, had there been better evidence, for instance, CCTV images showing him following Joanna home, or evidence of him buying cleaning materials in ASDA, rather than crisps!  To me, he does not seem a very likely murderer, and I am not saying this merely because he has a PhD, as of course I realise that someone with a PhD can commit murder!  But, really, a sexually motivated murder committed by someone who had only ever had one girlfriend, and who just happened to be the next door neighbour?

A lawyer called Sally Ramage, who was in court during the trial, has written an interesting account of it. Don't remember the link, but if you google Sally Ramage/Vincent Tabak, you will find it.

Any comments?????

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« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 08:47:37 PM by John »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2016, 12:12:32 PM »
I have doubts about whether Vincent Tabak is actually guilty.  Yes, I know he may well be, and I am not accusing anyone else, but I have questions, that I hope some of you may be able to answer:
Firstly, yes, I know he made a confession, but how do we know he didn't make it under duress?

Why was it necessary  to employ a team of fire engines and a crane to retrieve Joanna's body? (The Daily Mail carried a photo of this at the time).

Why was Tabak's DNA not found in Joanna's flat, if (as was claimed in court) he killed her there?

What evidence is there that he had her body in the boot of his car when he went to ASDA?

How do we know exactly what he searched on his computer, and do computer searches necessarily make one a murderer? (I think the police would have a field day if they looked at mine!!)

Why, once the police had Tabak's DNA, (or so they said) ,did they not release Christopher Jefferies immediately?

Why did neither Jefferies, nor Tanja Morson, nor Tabak's boss, appear in court to testify as to his character?

Ok, so these are some of my questions.  I would be happier about Tabak's conviction, had there been better evidence, for instance, CCTV images showing him following Joanna home, or evidence of him buying cleaning materials in ASDA, rather than crisps!  To me, he does not seem a very likely murderer, and I am not saying this merely because he has a PhD, as of course I realise that someone with a PhD can commit murder!  But, really, a sexually motivated murder committed by someone who had only ever had one girlfriend, and who just happened to be the next door neighbour?

A lawyer called Sally Ramage, who was in court during the trial, has written an interesting account of it. Don't remember the link, but if you google Sally Ramage/Vincent Tabak, you will find it.

Any comments?????

I was surprised when he was charged and subsequently found guilty as he seemed a most unlikely suspect but as far as I can see he's guilty as charged.

Personally I think his mind was corrupted by a certain type of porn.  There was also evidence he used the services of escorts.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/oct/28/vincent-tabak-porn-searches-jury
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 12:15:11 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline mrswah

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2016, 01:42:39 PM »
Thanks for your response, Holly.

Much was made of the porn on Tabak's computer, and someone from the States even accused Tabak of trying to strangle her during sex (this was reported in one of the tabloids).  So, why didn't a police officer interview her ?  Why didn't Tabak's girlfriend appear in court, as she would, surely, have had some idea as to whether or not her partner was into kinky  and dangerous sex.  Lots of people have porn on their computers, and many use escorts, pay for phone sex, etc, but this is not illegal, and it doesn't make somebody a killer.

As for the later appearance in court relating to the possession of child porn, I wonder why they bothered prosecuting.  After all, even if they put Tabak on the sex offenders' register for ten years, he will be in prison for the next ten years anyway, and is, therefore, in no position to work with children, or harm them .  (Incidentally, he had no previous criminal record either here, or in Holland , of any kind of sex crime).   I wonder if there was another reason, for instance, would this additional conviction make it harder (or impossible) for him to appeal??? 

Not sure that porn (or anything else) on somebody's computer is actually good evidence:  it can be planted, and did the jury actually get to see it??  It seems to me that the police and the CPS were DESPERATE to get a conviction, having messed things up so badly over the arrest of Christopher Jefferies.  It would not have been difficult to convince the jury, as everybody was absolutely appalled at what happened to Joanna Yeates.

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2016, 03:14:14 PM »
Thanks for your response, Holly.

Much was made of the porn on Tabak's computer, and someone from the States even accused Tabak of trying to strangle her during sex (this was reported in one of the tabloids).  So, why didn't a police officer interview her ?  Why didn't Tabak's girlfriend appear in court, as she would, surely, have had some idea as to whether or not her partner was into kinky  and dangerous sex.  Lots of people have porn on their computers, and many use escorts, pay for phone sex, etc, but this is not illegal, and it doesn't make somebody a killer.

As for the later appearance in court relating to the possession of child porn, I wonder why they bothered prosecuting.  After all, even if they put Tabak on the sex offenders' register for ten years, he will be in prison for the next ten years anyway, and is, therefore, in no position to work with children, or harm them .  (Incidentally, he had no previous criminal record either here, or in Holland , of any kind of sex crime).   I wonder if there was another reason, for instance, would this additional conviction make it harder (or impossible) for him to appeal??? 

Not sure that porn (or anything else) on somebody's computer is actually good evidence:  it can be planted, and did the jury actually get to see it??  It seems to me that the police and the CPS were DESPERATE to get a conviction, having messed things up so badly over the arrest of Christopher Jefferies.  It would not have been difficult to convince the jury, as everybody was absolutely appalled at what happened to Joanna Yeates.

Yes I agree the fact he watched porn and possibly used the services of an escort doesn't in itself point to his guilt.  In any event the jury didn't hear any of this.

I think men often use these services because their partners are not into whatever they are or they feel they can't ask.  So TM may have been in the dark about his sexual preferences. 

I thought his DNA was found somewhere on JY's body or clothing?

Is he protesting innocence or trying to appeal his sentence in some way? 

The verdict was a 10-2 majority.  I had look this up and was quite surprised as I did expect to find a unanimous verdict.  From what I read at the time I thought the case against him was very strong. 

I think people struggle to comprehend a well educated, well turned out man like VT carrying out such a crime.  CJ on the other hand, whilst also well educted, looked a bit unkempt and perhaps people just found it easier to pin the blame on him?  As evidenced by the way the press went to war on him?  I think people feel safe when the perps of serious crime look or act a bit different.   

VT claimed the attack was not sexually motivated and that he put his hands around JY's neck as she screamed.  Sounds remarkably like the case of Ian Huntley (Soham Murders) in this regard. 

mrswah I think there's little doubt VT is guilty.  I can't see any evidence of anything amiss here at all?  VT has even confessed.  He comes from a stable middle class family.  If they felt there was anything amiss I am sure they would be pursuing this?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline mrswah

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2016, 10:52:40 PM »
They did find DNA, but had to have it "enhanced", and I believe the police believed that, on its own,  it was not enough to get him convicted. 

I , too, have wondered why his family have not made any fuss about his conviction.  Do they believe him guilty, or have they been told to keep quiet, in order not to reduce his chances of being able to serve out part of his sentence in Holland?

I also find it strange that nobody has written a book about this case:  normally, somebody does, after such a high profile case.

Of course, I might be wrong, and he is guilty.  It is just that this case "niggles" me, whereas many murder cases don't.

Thanks for commenting, anyway.  I am hoping that other people on this forum will. 

As for Jefferies, I  strongly suspect that , somehow, he would have been "found guilty" had they not arrested Tabak, not just because he "looked weird", but because he had keys to all the flats.  The media (and people on forums) were very damning of him at the time---falsely, of course. 

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2016, 02:47:17 PM »
They did find DNA, but had to have it "enhanced", and I believe the police believed that, on its own,  it was not enough to get him convicted. 

I , too, have wondered why his family have not made any fuss about his conviction.  Do they believe him guilty, or have they been told to keep quiet, in order not to reduce his chances of being able to serve out part of his sentence in Holland?

I also find it strange that nobody has written a book about this case:  normally, somebody does, after such a high profile case.

Of course, I might be wrong, and he is guilty.  It is just that this case "niggles" me, whereas many murder cases don't.

Thanks for commenting, anyway.  I am hoping that other people on this forum will. 

As for Jefferies, I  strongly suspect that , somehow, he would have been "found guilty" had they not arrested Tabak, not just because he "looked weird", but because he had keys to all the flats.  The media (and people on forums) were very damning of him at the time---falsely, of course.

DNA is often amplified and it wouldn't be strong enough evidence on its own to get a case to court whether amplified or not.  Its not as strong as fingerprint evidence.  A DNA profile can be shared by others, although statistically rare.  Fingerprints are unique and not even shared by identical twins.

I don't believe the DPP would ever have been in a postion to bring about a case against CJ for the simple reason he is completely innocent of any involvement whatsoever. 

VT and his family have kept a dignified silence as all concerned know he's guilty.

I've no idea why this case would "niggle" anyone as I can't see there's any doubt at all VT is guilty. 

I'm not sure there's much to write about?  As far as I can see it's just a sad case where a man allowed himself to become corrupted and consumed by violent porn to the point where it caused him to act out of character in the real world.  His victim was a very decent young woman with her whole life ahead of her who it could be said 'was in the wrong place at the wrong time' albeit she was in her own home planning on spending a leisurely evening alone.

If you're interested in potential miscarriages of justice why not spend your time looking at cases where there's real doubt?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline mrswah

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2016, 04:22:03 PM »
Hi Holly

Well, I cant help my niggles and doubts now, can I??

I remember (I'm probably a lot older than you!) a time when anyone who thought the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six might be innocent, were considered absolutely nuts!!  And, yet----------

Of course Chris Jefferies, although totally innocent, could have been stitched up and convicted!  If that kind of thing never happened, there would be no miscarriages of justice at all.

So, which cases, where there is real doubt,  do you think I ought to be looking at ?

Was just hoping that somebody could help me with the questions that I asked in my first post. 

Offline mercury

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2016, 10:57:56 PM »


Hi mrs w , welcome


There is a website dedicated to his innocence, just google tabak is innocent
There is some interesting info in there which didnt make the uk news

But

apart from pleading guilty his long list of actions before being caught are very incriminatory

I think youre probably onto a loser here

And if he was innocent wouldnt he have alledged confession after duress?


Offline Myster

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 06:39:51 AM »

Hi mrs w , welcome


There is a website dedicated to his innocence, just google tabak is innocent
There is some interesting info in there which didnt make the uk news

But

apart from pleading guilty his long list of actions before being caught are very incriminatory

I think youre probably onto a loser here

And if he was innocent wouldnt he have alledged confession after duress?

Only one misguided voice crying from the wilderness of Denmark...

http://vincent-tabak-is-innocent.blogspot.co.uk/

http://www.suffolkstrangler.com/philip%20Hollingbery%20review.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nJqbxSVNOA
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline mrswah

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2016, 11:04:17 AM »
Thanks for the links folks!  I am familiar with them, good to see some other people are.

Yes, of course I might be "onto a loser" and don't mind if I am:   the consequences of people like me being "onto a winner" in this case  would mean that Joanna's killer  is still free to kill again, and that an innocent man is serving a life sentence.

Here is the link to Sally Ramage's account of the trial.  She does NOT say Tabak is innocent, but what she does say is very interesting all the same.  She is a lawyer, who was present at the trial.

www.philpapers.org/archive/RAMTMT-4.pdf

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2016, 02:24:53 PM »
Hi Holly

Well, I cant help my niggles and doubts now, can I??

I remember (I'm probably a lot older than you!) a time when anyone who thought the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six might be innocent, were considered absolutely nuts!!  And, yet----------

Of course Chris Jefferies, although totally innocent, could have been stitched up and convicted!  If that kind of thing never happened, there would be no miscarriages of justice at all.

So, which cases, where there is real doubt,  do you think I ought to be looking at ?

Was just hoping that somebody could help me with the questions that I asked in my first post.

Well I apologise if I sound completely dismissive but I just can't see anything to suggest VT is the victim of a MoJ.  Moreover I don't believe he's even protesting his innocence which he surely would if he didn't commit the crime?

You mentioned the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four as examples of MoJ's but the members involved in these cases always protested their innocence and had family support who were very vocal.  In the end their cases were taken up by high minded lawyers.  I believe one or two had 'confessions' beaten out of them in an era when police interviews were not taped.  MoJ's will sadly always happen but I do believe it's more difficult today for the innocent to be wrongly convicted than it was in the 70's and 80's.

VT was an unusual case in that he didn't fit the stereotypical murderer.  He was well educated and turned out with a well paid job and steady girlfriend from a middle class family.  As I said personally I think he allowed his mind to become corrupted and consumed by extreme porn.   

Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2016, 02:26:20 PM »
Thanks for the links folks!  I am familiar with them, good to see some other people are.

Yes, of course I might be "onto a loser" and don't mind if I am:   the consequences of people like me being "onto a winner" in this case  would mean that Joanna's killer  is still free to kill again, and that an innocent man is serving a life sentence.

Here is the link to Sally Ramage's account of the trial.  She does NOT say Tabak is innocent, but what she does say is very interesting all the same.  She is a lawyer, who was present at the trial.

www.philpapers.org/archive/RAMTMT-4.pdf

Are we able to authenticate Sally Ramage by way of an entry to a professional register or something of that nature?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline mrswah

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2016, 08:56:09 PM »
Will have a look Holly, and see what I can find out!

Offline mrswah

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2016, 09:19:04 PM »
Re Sally Ramage:


www.criminal-lawyer.org.uk


www.linkedin.com/in/criminallawyer1


Don't have a clue how she came to involve herself with the Tabak trial, however!

Offline mercury

Re: Vincent Tabak and the Murder of Joanna Yeates
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2016, 09:57:41 PM »
Thanks for the links folks!  I am familiar with them, good to see some other people are.

Yes, of course I might be "onto a loser" and don't mind if I am:   the consequences of people like me being "onto a winner" in this case  would mean that Joanna's killer  is still free to kill again, and that an innocent man is serving a life sentence.

Here is the link to Sally Ramage's account of the trial.  She does NOT say Tabak is innocent, but what she does say is very interesting all the same.  She is a lawyer, who was present at the trial.

www.philpapers.org/archive/RAMTMT-4.pdf

Sounds like she was arguing it was manslaughter not murder and I cant say I disagree much from what is known

I havent got my head around somene else being the killer, free to kill again, when tabak described the evenings events and what happened

Ive also speed read some of the other links, some of the arguments on face value seem valid, and quite strong, there is a bit of speculation to say the least as well, so bar tabak being forced to lie throught the trial, the cps, police, prison chaplain and lawyers all being bent, leaned on, or incompetent, Im not convinced he had nothing to do with it

must admit though, there is somethng iffy about the conduct of the whole thing

Cps and police often act like the mafia cos theyre protected by the govt
But i cant see why they would do so in ghis case, frame an innocent manand make him agree to it


« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 11:14:17 PM by mercury »