Author Topic: SC's Palms and Fingers  (Read 315 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

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SC's Palms and Fingers
« on: February 27, 2017, 11:42:26 PM »
Some have made much of SC's palms and fingers being bloodstained eg suggesting they graced the pages of the bible.  Is there any evidence for this?

Dr Vanezis' trial testimony confirms SC's palms and fingers were not bloodstained. 

Of course SC may have handled the bible with bloodied palms/fingers before washing her hands?

Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 01:24:08 AM »
Some have made much of SC's palms and fingers being bloodstained eg suggesting they graced the pages of the bible.  Is there any evidence for this?

Dr Vanezis' trial testimony confirms SC's palms and fingers were not bloodstained. 

Of course SC may have handled the bible with bloodied palms/fingers before washing her hands?

1) If she handled the Bible with bloody fingers and hands then the outside of the Bible would have had blood not simply the inside.

2) why would she handle the Bible, put it down and then go wash her hands before being killed?

3) The Bible was sitting in a pool of blood that formed after she died, it was placed in that pool after it formed so she can't have been the one who put it where it was found.

4) The bible was tested for fingerprints, if there had been finger/palm prints in blood the people doing the fingerprint testing would have recognized it and would have paid extra attention to such areas.  Prints in blood are the ultimate in the fingerprint world.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 11:27:06 AM »
1) If she handled the Bible with bloody fingers and hands then the outside of the Bible would have had blood not simply the inside.

2) why would she handle the Bible, put it down and then go wash her hands before being killed?

3) The Bible was sitting in a pool of blood that formed after she died, it was placed in that pool after it formed so she can't have been the one who put it where it was found.

4) The bible was tested for fingerprints, if there had been finger/palm prints in blood the people doing the fingerprint testing would have recognized it and would have paid extra attention to such areas.  Prints in blood are the ultimate in the fingerprint world.

Just to be clear I don't believe SC touched the bible on the night of 6th/7th Aug.

1.  I guess it would depend how she held it.

2.  According to Prof Knight those that commit murder and then take their own life can perform actions which seem unfathomable to most.  Eg murder, washing milk bottles, suicide. 

3.  The page of the bible with the heaviest blood stain was furtherest away from SC's body.  I can't take the credit for recognising this fact; the credit must go to Caroline for her research in PH's book.

4.  You would hope so yes but afaik the blood on the bible wasn't tested or if it was the results appear to be unknown so I am somewhat sceptical about the care taken over the fingerprinting.   
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 01:16:13 PM »
Just to be clear I don't believe SC touched the bible on the night of 6th/7th Aug.

1.  I guess it would depend how she held it.

The Bible got blood on it and then closed. This created a mirror image of the blood stains on both sides. It was reopened to that same page and then placed upside down.

Let's pretend it was sitting open on it's back on the ground as small amounts of blood dripped on it. It was then kicked closed. It was subsequently reopened to the same page it had been opened to before it was closed.  That requires someone to have reopened it with hands not just using feet.  It's not possible to reopen it without touching the cover.  Thus if the person who reopened it had blood on the inside of his/her hands then blood would have gotten on the cover.



2.  According to Prof Knight those that commit murder and then take their own life can perform actions which seem unfathomable to most.  Eg murder, washing milk bottles, suicide. 

He was talking about extremely rare ritualistic killings which would hold no relevance to this case. There was no ritualistic killing it supposedly was a woman who had a schizophrenic episode.

The only way to argue she would have washed herself would be if she intended to try to get away with the murders so was trying to get rid of the evidence.  That is totally different from murder suicide though.  The only examples of that happening with murder suicide is where the person who committed the murders cleaned up and planned to try to pretend they were not involved in the murders but they subsequently realized their efforts failed  and they were implicated anyway and they chose to kill themselves rather than be taken into custody.  That is vastly different from people who decide they are going to take their own life but determined to take others with them first which is straight up murder suicide. People who plan to end their own life kill their dependents first because that makes killing themselves easier. It does so because:

1) knowing their dependents will still need to be cared after and supported after they are dead for provides a reason for them to live
2) they know that it will be hard on their dependents emotionally to deal with the suicide
3) it forces their hand because a) it makes them feel even more miserable to have killed and they will go to jail if they don't kill themselves so it forces their hand in a way.  Sometimes they still chicken out and don't follow through though it is not foolproof at forcing them.

In contrast some people don't plan to kill themselves.  They plan to kill their dependents to be free of responsibility so they can start over living a carefree life.  Sometimes their plans catch up with them and they commit suicide later to avoid facing justice.

One of the biggest problems with Sheila killing her parents is that they were not dependents. If anything she was their dependent. If she had some delusion that they and her kids were holding her back that would be a motive to kill them all.  For example if she had some delusion that she could be a supermodel if they were not holding her back. This is characteristic of murder not murder-suicide- the suicide would not fit in.

3.  The page of the bible with the heaviest blood stain was furtherest away from SC's body.  I can't take the credit for recognising this fact; the credit must go to Caroline for her research in PH's book.

The Bible was not lying flat like this:



A page is folded over.





Looking at the photos you see that it its the bottom page on the left side in the photo was sitting in the blood pool as well as a portion of the right side. Some of the right is up in the air so not touching.

When you flip the Bible over and sit it on its back to look at the pages the pages reverse.  What was left in the photo is now right and what was right is left.

Here is a blood pool similar to sheilas, you have the trail leading to the pool and then the pool itself:



Pretend Sheila's body is to the right of it. If the Bible is placed upside down in it like in the images above the stain on the right side would be thinner and confined to a strip at the top while the stain on the right side will go further down the page.  When flipped over that means the left side will be the page with it confined to very top while it will extend further on the right. There is no mystery.


4.  You would hope so yes but afaik the blood on the bible wasn't tested or if it was the results appear to be unknown so I am somewhat sceptical about the care taken over the fingerprinting.

They fingerprinted the Bible and found some prints that were not in blood. If there were prints in blood they would have photographed them and attempted to identify those as well. Since they found no prints in the blood testing the blood would be meaningless.  They didn't see any point in damaging the Bible to remove the blood since it was clearly sitting in the pool of Sheila's blood. 

Let's pretend they ripped out the pages and tested the blood and found the mirror image stains were June's blood while the larger staining at the top was sheila's.  What would such prove?  All it would prove is that when June was walking around the bed dripping blood on the carpet that the Bible had been sitting on the floor opened and she thus dripped on it as well.  Then subsequently someone closed the Bible and placed it in Sheila's blood pool. The only significant fact in that is that someone closed the bible then reopened it and placed it in her blood pool. The only reason that is even significant is because the blood pool formed after her death so she can't have been the one who put it there. Whose blood constituted the blood that created the mirror image is not significant only the fact a mirror image was created is.  So there was no reason to remove the blood from the Bible to try to test it.

If the Bible had bloody prints they would have tested them to try to see if the prints belonged to Jeremy. Jeremy's prints in blood of a victim would be quite damning. It is unfathomable they fingerprinted it and found prints in blood yet decided not to record that they found such and not try to compare same to Jeremy's prints.  Basically you need someone who is in tank for Jeremy examining the Bible for prints to not do such or to be the most incompetent moron imaginable. That is a whole different level of ineptitude than the ineptitude associated with the things we currently criticize the investigators for. 
 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:52:00 PM by Myster »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 01:42:04 PM »
The bible in the crime scene photo is not open at the pages which are bloodstained (656-657). Look at the difference between that photo and the recent one using a new identical copy of the bible. The original bible is opened towards the end of the book, whereas (stained) pages 656-657 of the copy are in the middle of the book. Easily recognised by looking at the spine in both photos.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 02:07:05 PM by Myster »
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 01:51:29 PM »
Do soc photos exist of any non-drip bloodstains to the carpet surrounding SC's body/the bible?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Myster

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 01:59:07 PM »
Do soc photos exist of any non-drip bloodstains to the carpet surrounding SC's body/the bible?

If they do, they're not available to thee and me... or you and I.
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 03:31:43 PM »
Do soc photos exist of any non-drip bloodstains to the carpet surrounding SC's body/the bible?

what do you mean by non-drip? 

The pool of blood leaked from her neck to the carpet where it pooled technically that is dripped blood.  Naturally leaking blood forms a different shape that drops falling from a body that is standing and dripping blood. You can see some of that blood in the photos of the Bible in place but the bulk you can't see the pooling that is under the Bible only that which is above it.

They either didn't remove the Bible and then take photos of the carpet or haven't released photos of the carpet with the Bible removed. They detailed removing the rifle and then taking photos but no mention of removing the Bible and taking photos which suggests they didn't.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 03:33:39 PM »
The bible in the crime scene photo is not open at the pages which are bloodstained (656-657). Look at the difference between that photo and the recent one using a new identical copy of the bible. The original bible is opened towards the end of the book, whereas (stained) pages 656-657 of the copy are in the middle of the book. Easily recognised by looking at the spine in both photos.

They look exactly the same part of the book to me.  The only difference is in yours the pages are flat while in that one the pages are folded over more.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Myster

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 04:04:23 PM »
They look exactly the same part of the book to me.  The only difference is in yours the pages are flat while in that one the pages are folded over more.

Look closely at the publisher's logo at the base of the spine and where the pages are bound/joined to it - in the reconstruction photo, the pages where the book is open line up more or less central to the logo, whereas in the crime scene photo, the pages are open to the left of the logo... in other words, the bible was placed face down and open at later pages than the stained ones, 656-657.

Holly or anyone... do you see what I see?
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline APRIL

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 04:19:23 PM »
Look closely at the publisher's logo at the base of the spine and where the pages are bound/joined to it - in the reconstruction photo, the pages where the book is open line up more or less central to the logo, whereas in the crime scene photo, the pages are open to the left of the logo... in other words, the bible was placed face down and open at later pages than the stained ones, 656-657.

Holly or anyone... do you see what I see?

Yes, Myster, with the aid of a magnifying glass -unless it's an optical illusion- I certainly, as far as it's possible to say, believe I see what you see. 8)--))

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2017, 07:01:34 PM »
Look closely at the publisher's logo at the base of the spine and where the pages are bound/joined to it - in the reconstruction photo, the pages where the book is open line up more or less central to the logo, whereas in the crime scene photo, the pages are open to the left of the logo... in other words, the bible was placed face down and open at later pages than the stained ones, 656-657.

Holly or anyone... do you see what I see?

Yes I think I can see what you see!  What do YOU think it means in the grand scheme of things?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Myster

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2017, 08:28:22 PM »
Yes I think I can see what you see!  What do YOU think it means in the grand scheme of things?
Either...

1). The police or doctor moved the book to examine Sheila's body/neck wounds more closely (when Ron Cook moved her arm, say) and it closed unintentionally causing the mirror image, after which they reopened it at any old page and replaced it for the cs photo to be taken.

2). Jeremy Bamber might have had a problem when placing it on Sheila's arm so that it stayed in the open position. If the stain was from the carpet, the book closed causing the mirror image, after which he opened it at the later pages and hoped the police didn't notice.

But I'm still of the opinion that it was a palm print, most likely June's, who after feeling her wounds, placed her right hand on it as she was getting out of bed. The book closed through disturbance of the bedclothes creating the mirror image, after which JB placed it on Sheila's arm at the stained pages.

‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2017, 09:51:44 PM »
Either...

1). The police or doctor moved the book to examine Sheila's body/neck wounds more closely (when Ron Cook moved her arm, say) and it closed unintentionally causing the mirror image, after which they reopened it at any old page and replaced it for the cs photo to be taken.

By the time police were inside the blood was dry.  Moreover, the mirror image was from before the larger stains or they also would have created a mirror image on both sides.
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

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Re: SC's Palms and Fingers
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2017, 09:20:35 PM »
what do you mean by non-drip? 

The pool of blood leaked from her neck to the carpet where it pooled technically that is dripped blood.  Naturally leaking blood forms a different shape that drops falling from a body that is standing and dripping blood. You can see some of that blood in the photos of the Bible in place but the bulk you can't see the pooling that is under the Bible only that which is above it.

They either didn't remove the Bible and then take photos of the carpet or haven't released photos of the carpet with the Bible removed. They detailed removing the rifle and then taking photos but no mention of removing the Bible and taking photos which suggests they didn't.

By non-drip I mean the image of a bloodstain which in some ways resembles a horseshoe above the bible - see attached.  By dripped bloodstains I mean the stains which appear to originate from June's gsw's as she walked around the bed and represent small circular stains.  To my eye/mind the horseshoe stain on the carpet doesn't appear to originate from SC based on the position she was found as per soc photos.

I would like to see an image of the entire horseshoe bloodstain that appears partly hidden by the bible.  I would also like to know whose blood and how it came to be there.  Along with confirmation whose blood stains the pages of the bible. 

The above are all things we should know, not be guessing about 32 years on.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92