Author Topic: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent  (Read 2660 times)

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Offline puglove

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2017, 10:57:13 PM »
1. Jeremy, I assume,  wishes to examine the gun in its found (pristine at crime scene) state.
2. Sheila is dead with wounds that have trajectories that can not be excluded as self inflicted.
3. It seems everyone agrees a call was made from White House Farm to Goldhanger cottage after 3 am, so I presume you know who made the call, and can show your workings.

No, I don't need a hair cut right now. Check Don Martin for that.

I hardly understand any of your stuff, Samson - either on here, blue or I.A. Maybe it's your intention to be obscure.

How can the gun be almost totally devoid of prints? If you're right then Sheila must have handled it, carried it, reloaded it, chambered it, used it as a club...maybe Nevill tried to wrestle it from her in the kitchen...then she shot herself (twice!), so she must have gripped the end of the barrel at that point - but no prints, either smeared or clear. (I know about her ring-finger print, which is more damning for Bamber, IMO).

What do you think?
Bamber's hot new team. Mr. Kipling, Miss Piggy, and a fat bloke. It's all looking very hopeful.

Offline puglove

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2017, 12:02:11 AM »
I hardly understand any of your stuff, Samson - either on here, blue or I.A. Maybe it's your intention to be obscure.

How can the gun be almost totally devoid of prints? If you're right then Sheila must have handled it, carried it, reloaded it, chambered it, used it as a club...maybe Nevill tried to wrestle it from her in the kitchen...then she shot herself (twice!), so she must have gripped the end of the barrel at that point - but no prints, either smeared or clear. (I know about her ring-finger print, which is more damning for Bamber, IMO).

What do you think?

Sorry, Samson, but from now on you're dumped into the elderly gut-feeling, copper-hating, lazy homework denying, conspiracy theory believing, weirdly obtuse bin.

Carry on tilting at the wrong windmill.
Bamber's hot new team. Mr. Kipling, Miss Piggy, and a fat bloke. It's all looking very hopeful.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2017, 01:41:15 AM »
1. Jeremy, I assume,  wishes to examine the gun in its found (pristine at crime scene) state.
2. Sheila is dead with wounds that have trajectories that can not be excluded as self inflicted.
3. It seems everyone agrees a call was made from White House Farm to Goldhanger cottage after 3 am, so I presume you know who made the call, and can show your workings.

No, I don't need a hair cut right now. Check Don Martin for that.

I think the evidence proves the complete opposite of what Holly claims but I don't even comprehend what you are trying to say in your first one.

I don't know what you mean by Jeremy was trying to examine it.

Furthermore, the gun wasn't in pristine condition after the murders- the stock was damaged and it as well as the moderator were scratched up whereas the weekend prior they were pristine.

As for the call to Goldhanger there is no proof it happened and only Jeremy supporters believe it actually occurred and they only believe it occurred because if it didn't then Jeremy is guilty and they don't want to believe that so say it happened. 

While the trajectories don' rule out suicide other things do for instance evidence proving the moderator was used and complete lack of GSR and other evidence that would be present on her body had she committed the murders.

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Samson

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2017, 01:46:47 AM »
Sorry, Samson, but from now on you're dumped into the elderly gut-feeling, copper-hating, lazy homework denying, conspiracy theory believing, weirdly obtuse bin.

Carry on tilting at the wrong windmill.
There is no need to apologise.

I don't regard conspiracy discussion as adding anything to these cases. Usually there is one act of helping a case that will be done secretly.

Julie Mugford was an extreme case of woman scorned.

Once Bamber is in jail the system is designed to keep him there, in support of the sanctity of the jury decision. This is universal in countries of this type. There is no conspiracy by judges and the home office, just a routine that is followed, reverse the burden of proof and seize on a data point that is too hard to disprove.
In this case it is the paint on the silencer, CCRC 2012.

Is that clear Puglove?

I have explained what happened in this crime scene, and it is the only explanation that works. Holly and I disgree on some points, but the thrust is the same. Nevill is ringing Jeremy downstairs while Sheila heads upstairs with a gun, and shoots June. Nevill stops the call and climbs the staircase and meets gunfire, turns, the cartridge is emptied in his left arm, and he is thoroughly disabled, but with enough locomotive capacity left to reach and collapse into the coal bucket.
If she swings the rifle by the barrel she is not bound to encounter any resistance, or get blood spattered, or receive any injury. This act is the only one that might cause the expected contamination of hands or clothes, but this is not necessary. She very likely washed her hands, as suiciders do, and unlike Holly, I think she waited till there was no choice but be arrested or shoot herself.

My three key reasons for stating Bamber is innocent are probably

1. There is no evidence linking him to the crime scene.
2. There is a thoroughly plausible explanation excluding him and the need to force compliance to a suicide pose.
3. It is claimed he planned this slaughter. Yet the plan has so many moving parts with such chaos inevitable, that it is completely doomed to failure. Retrofitting this chaos to include him does not obviate the need to explain how he could possibly plan to achieve this scene without a disastrous and incriminating forensic encounter with Sheila.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 02:32:54 AM by John »

Offline Samson

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2017, 01:56:07 AM »
I think the evidence proves the complete opposite of what Holly claims but I don't even comprehend what you are trying to say in your first one.

I don't know what you mean by Jeremy was trying to examine it.

Furthermore, the gun wasn't in pristine condition after the murders- the stock was damaged and it as well as the moderator were scratched up whereas the weekend prior they were pristine.

As for the call to Goldhanger there is no proof it happened and only Jeremy supporters believe it actually occurred and they only believe it occurred because if it didn't then Jeremy is guilty and they don't want to believe that so say it happened. 

While the trajectories don' rule out suicide other things do for instance evidence proving the moderator was used and complete lack of GSR and other evidence that would be present on her body had she committed the murders.
I have just covered some of these points chatting to Puglove. I don't recall the point I was making about the gun, but you have nailed it by stating the trajectories don't rule out suicide. We have suffered this paradox with David Bain for two decades as well.
Bloody slaughters in pursuit of the family fortune by 23 year olds that must unequivocally conclude with perfect suicide trajectories and no contact with the victim, yet there are already bodies strewn everywhere.

This is no way to sit down with pencil and paper and sketch out a plan. This is a recipe for failure at a truly chaotic number of interactions. And in Bain and Bamber, the crimes were not planned before the evenings in question, and strong propensity motive was present in both.
Robin Bain had been outed for raping his daughter, and Sheila Caffel may have been about to lose what little control she had over her children imo.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 02:34:15 AM by John »

Offline John

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2017, 02:40:41 AM »
I have explained what happened in this crime scene, and it is the only explanation that works. Holly and I disgree on some points, but the thrust is the same. Nevill is ringing Jeremy downstairs while Sheila heads upstairs with a gun, and shoots June. Nevill stops the call and climbs the staircase and meets gunfire, turns, the cartridge is emptied in his left arm, and he is thoroughly disabled, but with enough locomotive capacity left to reach and collapse into the coal bucket.
If she swings the rifle by the barrel she is not bound to encounter any resistance, or get blood spattered, or receive any injury. This act is the only one that might cause the expected contamination of hands or clothes, but this is not necessary. She very likely washed her hands, as suiciders do, and unlike Holly, I think she waited till there was no choice but be arrested or shoot herself.


The difficulty with these improvised theories is that they don't fit with the facts.  For your theory to work Sheila had to discharge several shots while Nevill was allegedly on the phone to Jeremy.  Unfortunately for your theory, no shots were heard by Jeremy so its back to your drawing board.

The reality is however that we know what happened in the master bedroom, who was shot where and how many times.  We also know roughly where the shooter was standing when he discharged the shots.  The altercation in the kitchen was not the one sided affair that you suggest, Nevill put up an almighty struggle with his attacker which rules Sheila out completely for many reasons.

Every good investigator worth his salt knows that in order to correctly explain an event every single detail has to fit. Nobody has ever come up with a credible theory which can incriminate Sheila which says it all really.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 02:49:38 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
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Offline John

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2017, 02:55:52 AM »
My three key reasons for stating Bamber is innocent are probably

1. There is no evidence linking him to the crime scene.
2. There is a thoroughly plausible explanation excluding him and the need to force compliance to a suicide pose.
3. It is claimed he planned this slaughter. Yet the plan has so many moving parts with such chaos inevitable, that it is completely doomed to failure. Retrofitting this chaos to include him does not obviate the need to explain how he could possibly plan to achieve this scene without a disastrous and incriminating forensic encounter with Sheila.

1. There doesn't have to be evidence directly linking Jeremy to the crimescene.  There is an abundance of circumstantial evidence and that is what counts.

2. Not according to the evidence so I completely disagree.

3. Bamber managed to isolate Sheila from the killing spree and could have done so in several ways.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2017, 05:24:17 AM »
I have just covered some of these points chatting to Puglove. I don't recall the point I was making about the gun, but you have nailed it by stating the trajectories don't rule out suicide. We have suffered this paradox with David Bain for two decades as well.
Bloody slaughters in pursuit of the family fortune by 23 year olds that must unequivocally conclude with perfect suicide trajectories and no contact with the victim, yet there are already bodies strewn everywhere.

This is no way to sit down with pencil and paper and sketch out a plan. This is a recipe for failure at a truly chaotic number of interactions. And in Bain and Bamber, the crimes were not planned before the evenings in question, and strong propensity motive was present in both.
Robin Bain had been outed for raping his daughter, and Sheila Caffel may have been about to lose what little control she had over her children imo.

1) There is evidence establishing that Jeremy did in fact plan the murders for a long time and that he took various steps in anticipation of committing the murders.  That evidence is not only what Julie testified to, but also he did in fact take his mother's bike and have it at his house shortly before the murders (he told Julie he planned to use a bike) and removed the phone form the master bedroom in anticipation of committing the murders. He also planned to tell to frame his sister and pretend he received a distress call according to Julie.  He also had his father buy the semi-auto in anticipation of committing the murders because he needed something with a larger magazine then the double barrel shotguns Nevill possessed.

2) You ignore all the forensic evidence that proves Sheila can't have killed everyone else and herself and only care about the trajectory of her shots nothing else.  That is very shortsighted.  If she hugged the weapon to shoot herself then GSR would have been all over her gown and her blood would have been inside the barrel of the rifle.
Instead her blood was in the moderator and it was put away by the killer in the closet, she could not have shot herself with it attached and certainly didn't go put it in the closet after she was dead. All the forensic evidence that would exist if she had beaten Nevill and shot the others didn't exist either.

   
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Samson

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2017, 09:40:45 AM »
1) There is evidence establishing that Jeremy did in fact plan the murders for a long time and that he took various steps in anticipation of committing the murders.  That evidence is not only what Julie testified to, but also he did in fact take his mother's bike and have it at his house shortly before the murders (he told Julie he planned to use a bike) and removed the phone form the master bedroom in anticipation of committing the murders. He also planned to tell to frame his sister and pretend he received a distress call according to Julie.  He also had his father buy the semi-auto in anticipation of committing the murders because he needed something with a larger magazine then the double barrel shotguns Nevill possessed.

2) You ignore all the forensic evidence that proves Sheila can't have killed everyone else and herself and only care about the trajectory of her shots nothing else.  That is very shortsighted.  If she hugged the weapon to shoot herself then GSR would have been all over her gown and her blood would have been inside the barrel of the rifle.
Instead her blood was in the moderator and it was put away by the killer in the closet, she could not have shot herself with it attached and certainly didn't go put it in the closet after she was dead. All the forensic evidence that would exist if she had beaten Nevill and shot the others didn't exist either.

   
Lack of blood in the gun barrel is probably something Holly or David can help with. I know that there was blood in the silencer in Bain. This may be attributed to the rigid surface at the temple creating a different physical dynamic to throat shots. To force blood back a rigid contact point may be required.
Obviously I disagree with the rest, the most extreme reason for abandoning Mugford is that she appeared complicit until dumped in a hideous crime against children. Are you suggesting her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 02:10:39 PM by John »

Online APRIL

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2017, 10:40:23 AM »
Lack of blood in the gun barrel is probably something Holly or David can help with. I know that there was blood in the silencer in Bain. This may be attributed to the rigid surface at the temple creating a different physical dynamic to throat shots. To force blood back a rigid contact point may be required.
Obviously I disagree with the rest, the most extreme reason for abandoning Mugford is that she appeared complicit until dumped in a hideous crime against children. Are you suggesting her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?

"Are you suggesting that her current career with children in Canada is therapeutic?" Try, if you can, to look at this from the both sides. It starts from the point where, whatever you believe were her motives, she WAS involved in, what can only be described as, a nightmare situation -I will add, here, that whilst I DO believe she told the truth, I don't believe she told ALL the truth- and from my understanding, none of us can leave them, totally, behind, SO, IF you're going to persist in the belief that she's the Wicked Witch of the East, she'll have no less of an internal struggle with what she did than if she's pure as driven snow. Coming from a position of both extremes -personally, I don't think she's at either end, rather she falls somewhere in the middle- it's not unlikely that she'd need long term therapy to help her work it though.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 02:11:36 PM by John »

Offline adam

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 10:46:30 AM »
1. There doesn't have to be evidence directly linking Jeremy to the crimescene.  There is an abundance of circumstantial evidence and that is what counts.

2. Not according to the evidence so I completely disagree.

3. Bamber managed to isolate Sheila from the killing spree and could have done so in several ways.

I have never understood the claim that there is no direct evidence linking Bamber to the crime scene. 

It's true that there is no CCTV footage of Bamber climbing through a WHF window. However all the evidence that shows it wasn't Sheila, directly links Bamber to the crime scene.  Courtesy of Bamber's telephone call to the police.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 10:50:46 AM by adam »

Offline Caroline

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 01:35:53 PM »
There is no need to apologise.

I don't regard conspiracy discussion as adding anything to these cases. Usually there is one act of helping a case that will be done secretly.

Julie Mugford was an extreme case of woman scorned.

Once Bamber is in jail the system is designed to keep him there, in support of the sanctity of the jury decision. This is universal in countries of this type. There is no conspiracy by judges and the home office, just a routine that is followed, reverse the burden of proof and seize on a data point that is too hard to disprove.
In this case it is the paint on the silencer, CCRC 2012.

Is that clear Puglove?

I have explained what happened in this crime scene, and it is the only explanation that works. Holly and I disgree on some points, but the thrust is the same. Nevill is ringing Jeremy downstairs while Sheila heads upstairs with a gun, and shoots June. Nevill stops the call and climbs the staircase and meets gunfire, turns, the cartridge is emptied in his left arm, and he is thoroughly disabled, but with enough locomotive capacity left to reach and collapse into the coal bucket.
If she swings the rifle by the barrel she is not bound to encounter any resistance, or get blood spattered, or receive any injury. This act is the only one that might cause the expected contamination of hands or clothes, but this is not necessary. She very likely washed her hands, as suiciders do, and unlike Holly, I think she waited till there was no choice but be arrested or shoot herself.

My three key reasons for stating Bamber is innocent are probably

1. There is no evidence linking him to the crime scene.
2. There is a thoroughly plausible explanation excluding him and the need to force compliance to a suicide pose.
3. It is claimed he planned this slaughter. Yet the plan has so many moving parts with such chaos inevitable, that it is completely doomed to failure. Retrofitting this chaos to include him does not obviate the need to explain how he could possibly plan to achieve this scene without a disastrous and incriminating forensic encounter with Sheila.

1. There is no evidence linking Sheila and she was there - Bamber had time to rid himself of forensics.
2. no idea what your number two point is about.
3. Because his plan was crap in hindsight isn't a reason for his innocence.

Offline John

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2017, 02:19:48 PM »
I have never understood the claim that there is no direct evidence linking Bamber to the crime scene. 

It's true that there is no CCTV footage of Bamber climbing through a WHF window. However all the evidence that shows it wasn't Sheila, directly links Bamber to the crime scene.  Courtesy of Bamber's telephone call to the police.

I suspect there was evidence directly linking him but forensics were unable to prove it.

There was in fact a blood-speckled shirt of Jeremy's hanging up in his wardrobe in Bourtree Cottage, some blood on his bathrobe and blood under a seat in the car parked in the driveway.  By the time a blood expert did all the analyses the results were found to be inconclusive.

When police first went to the cottage they found no towels in the bathroom or the laundry, they had effectively disappeared which was very suspicious.  Julie Mugford would have known what was normal laundry practice at Bourtree Cottage, was she ever asked?



Essex Police SOCO examining Nevill Bamber's car parked at Jeremy's house in Goldhanger. Blood was found under a front seat.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 01:10:36 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Myster

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2017, 02:57:04 PM »
I suspect there was evidence directly linking him but forensics were unable to prove it.

There was in fact a blood-speckled shirt of Jeremy's hanging up in his wardrobe in Bourtree Cottage, some blood on his bathrobe and blood under a seat in the car parked in the driveway.  By the time a blood expert did all the analyses the results were found to be inconclusive.

When police first went to the cottage they found no towels in the bathroom or the laundry, they had effectively disappeared which was very suspicious.  Julie Mugford would have known what was normal laundry practice at Bourtree Cottage, was she ever asked?
Three small blood stains ON one of the front seats of Nevill's Citroen Pallas. Bamber had four weeks to wipe the upholstery clean, but obviously wasn't thorough enough.
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Caroline

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Re: Top Three Reasons Why You Believe JB Guilty Or Innocent
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2017, 04:02:24 PM »
I suspect there was evidence directly linking him but forensics were unable to prove it.

There was in fact a blood-speckled shirt of Jeremy's hanging up in his wardrobe in Bourtree Cottage, some blood on his bathrobe and blood under a seat in the car parked in the driveway.  By the time a blood expert did all the analyses the results were found to be inconclusive.

When police first went to the cottage they found no towels in the bathroom or the laundry, they had effectively disappeared which was very suspicious.  Julie Mugford would have known what was normal laundry practice at Bourtree Cottage, was she ever asked?



Essex Police SOCO examining Nevill Bamber's car parked at Jeremy's house in Goldhanger. Blood was found under a front seat.

Yes, she said that Jeremy didn't usually have towels in the bathroom.