Author Topic: Caroline's research into the bible and David's 'forensic evidence breakthrough'  (Read 1260 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

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I have no real idea about the above but it appears from posts made by Caroline and David there might be some overlap.

Given that afaik the bible wasn't forensically examined and the origin of the bloodstains remain unknown and  the bible now destroyed I am struggling to see how the bible or anything contained within by way of bloodstains is capable of being advanced?

I might be wrong but I think I'm right in saying Caroline and David believe the bloodstains within the bible originate from SC whereas Myster and myself believe they originate from June?  In the absence of forensic analysis surely it is just a guessing game and a complete waste of time?

If detailed measurements and/or photos of June's and SC's hands exist then maybe it would be possible to match with the bloodstains but I doubt such information exists? 

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« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 05:03:59 PM by John »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline adam

I've asked David to post AH's letter. The one where he tells David not to reveal his 'forensic evidence breakthrough' because it 'would give the crown more time to prepare'.

I'm sure everyone will find it very interesting reading a former politician attempting to obstruct the course of justice.

Bamber's letter to David on this issue didn't request the 'forensic evidence breakthrough was kept hush hush. Which is not surprising as team Bamber are not exactly shy. So not sure why AH's view takes precedent. He hasn't come out to play for years.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 01:01:36 PM by adam »

Offline Holly Goodhead

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The bible hardly featured at trial.  It was pretty much limited to soc officer confirming he seized it under exhibit number DRH/44 and Prof Knight testifying that he had experience of bibles present amongst those who commit suicide.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=221

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=165.0;attach=235

You will note in the above ending 221 the prosecution don't mention the bloodstaining to the bible but quickly move on to bloodstained wallpaper  8(0(* The defence ending in 235 above mention the bloodstaining to the bible but completely overlook the fact that they have no idea whose blood  8(0(*

More to follow...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:24:34 AM by John »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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One can read here about the prosecution case against JB at trial and yet see no reference to the bible:  (Taken from the following doc @ point 151 http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html)

151. The prosecution relied upon the following areas of evidence:

i) The appellant's expressed dislike of his family;

ii) His speaking of his plans to kill his family and thereafter his confessions to his girlfriend, Julie Mugford;

iii) The finding of his mother's bicycle at Goldhanger;

iv) The appellant's admitted ability to effect covert entry into and exit from the farmhouse and the finding of the hacksaw blade outside the bathroom window. His claim to have entered the house in that way after the first arrest was an attempt to explain these findings;

v) Because on the facts of the case it could only have been the appellant or Sheila Caffell who carried out the killings, the factors below proved they were not the responsibility of the appellant's sister:

a) Although seriously mentally ill, there had been no indication of any deterioration in her mental health in the days before the killings. Neither had she expressed any recent suicidal thoughts and the expert evidence was that she would not have harmed her children or her father;

b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;

c) She would not have been able physically to have overcome her father (who was fit, strong and 6' 4" tall) during the struggle which undoubtedly took place before his death in the kitchen;

d) Her hands and feet were clean. They were not blood stained and neither was there any sugar upon them;

e) Hand swabs from her body did not reveal the levels of lead to be expected in somebody who must have re-loaded the magazine of the gun on at least two occasions; and

f) Her clothing was relatively clean and she was not injured in the way that might be expected of somebody involved in a struggle. Her long fingernails were still intact and undamaged.

vi) The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself. The following aspects of the evidence established it was still in place on the gun when the appellant's sister was murdered:

a) The blood grouping analysis proved (on the particular facts of the case) that Sheila Caffell's blood was inside the moderator; and

b) Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.

vii) The appellant's account of the telephone call from his father could be proved to be false for the following reasons:

a) His father was too badly injured to have spoken to anybody;

b) The telephone in the kitchen was not obviously blood stained;

c) As a matter of common sense, Nevill Bamber would have called the police before the appellant;

d) Had the appellant really received such a call, he would have immediately made a 999 call, alerted the farm workers who lived close to the farmhouse and then driven at speed to his parents home; and

e) Instead he had spoken to Julie Mugford before calling the police. When he subsequently contacted the Police, it was not by way of the emergency system.

viii) He stood to inherit considerable sums of money.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:25:44 AM by John »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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JM states JB told her the so-called hit man Matthew MacDonald (spelling?) put the bible on SC's chest:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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At the 2002 appeal hearing JB's QC, Michael Turner, was able to raise a point about the bible which you can read about here at point 405:

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

All concerned ie MT and 3 appeal court judges seem oblivious to the fact that no one seems to know whose blood stained the pages of the bible.  The appeal court judges make the mistake of claiming the heavily blood stained page was closest to SC's body when in fact it was futherest away as per soc photos showing the bible face down.  The last fact formed part of Caroline's research. 

It also came to light the defence did not examine the bible.  Whether they didn't puruse or obstacles were put in the way is anyone's guess.  According to the appeal court judges:

Counsel with the experience of Mr Rivlin QC, and with his acknowledged reputation for thoroughness, may well have decided that far from helping these matters might have presented a yet further major hurdle for the appellant to overcome and consequently decided to leave well alone. In any event we are satisfied that production of the original exhibit provided all the information that the photographs would have revealed and that there was no failure to disclose in this respect.

Was Geoffrey Rivlin QC's reputation for thoroughness deserved?

JB's trial soliciitor, Paul Terzeon, claimed he sought out info re the bible and it appears he was fobbed off.  Was there anything preventing him from writing to the chief investigating officer and getting something in writing as to why the info was unavailable and/or seeking to examine it himself or sending a foresnic scientist or the like to examine it?  Paul Terzeon makes no mention of bloodstaining but the defence were clearly aware it was bloodstained as per Geoffrey Rivlin's cross-examination of DC Hammersley posted above.  Also the bible was exhibited at trial.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1857

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=569.0;attach=1859


The defence sent a Dr Lincoln to the lab to examine all bloodstained exhibits but no mention of the bible:


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=929

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=931

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=933

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=935

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=937

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=276.0;attach=939
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Holly Goodhead

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By the time of the 2002 appeal all trial exhibits had been destroyed other than the rifle and silencer which I understand are exhibits in EP's museum. 

165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.

MT effectively had a penalty point over the destruction of the bible.  I have no legal qualifications so maybe I'm way off the mark but I would have thought in the absence of the bible MT might have been better off going down another route than the one he did above ie the open pages held some spiritual meaning for SC indicative of her opening said pages. 

Dr Vanezis' trial testimony confirms SC's palms and fingers were free of bloodstains whereas June's were bloodstained.  June's mental illness was bound up with her religiosity.  June walked around the bed and much bloodstaining in the area where the bible was found originated from June ie carpet and blue socks.  The only identifiable fingerprints on the bible pertained to June.

It might have been possible to argue the bible came to be where it was found as a result of June carrying it with her when she walked around the bed and dropped it ie neither SC or JB sought it out and effectively it was a red herring.  This would then call into question JM's claims JB told her MM placed a bible on SC's chest.

My guess is one of the low ranking officers who observed the bible at soc weaved the bible into a narrative supporting the prosecution case.  It was then introduced into JM's testimony around the beginning of Sept.  Many blood stained exhibits were not tested until late Sept.  If the bible was tested later and showed the bloodstains originated from June it undermined JM's testimony and the prosecution case in this regard to some extent.
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline David1819

I've asked David to post AH's letter. The one where he tells David not to reveal his 'forensic evidence breakthrough' because it 'would give the crown more time to prepare'.

I'm sure everyone will find it very interesting reading a former politician attempting to obstruct the course of justice.

Bamber's letter to David on this issue didn't request the 'forensic evidence breakthrough was kept hush hush. Which is not surprising as team Bamber are not exactly shy. So not sure why AH's view takes precedent. He hasn't come out to play for years.

Unfortunately the words 'would give the crown more time to prepare' was in a telephone conversation. So i have no record of it. However AH did give me another reason not to go public in a followup email to that very telephone conversation.

Your in for an exhilarating Friday night now Adam. I have attached the email below for you.  8((()*/

Offline scipio_usmc

By the time of the 2002 appeal all trial exhibits had been destroyed other than the rifle and silencer which I understand are exhibits in EP's museum. 

165. In February 1996, the Essex police destroyed many of the original trial exhibits without reference to the appellant or his legal representatives. It might have been necessary for this court to examine the circumstances in which this had happened. The police officer responsible contended that it was done without his appreciating that there was any on-going legal process that might require the further use of the exhibits. However, during argument it was agreed that the court could protect the appellant's position by making assumptions in his favour and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to resolve precisely how this came about.

MT effectively had a penalty point over the destruction of the bible.  I have no legal qualifications so maybe I'm way off the mark but I would have thought in the absence of the bible MT might have been better off going down another route than the one he did above ie the open pages held some spiritual meaning for SC indicative of her opening said pages. 

Dr Vanezis' trial testimony confirms SC's palms and fingers were free of bloodstains whereas June's were bloodstained.  June's mental illness was bound up with her religiosity.  June walked around the bed and much bloodstaining in the area where the bible was found originated from June ie carpet and blue socks.  The only identifiable fingerprints on the bible pertained to June.

It might have been possible to argue the bible came to be where it was found as a result of June carrying it with her when she walked around the bed and dropped it ie neither SC or JB sought it out and effectively it was a red herring.  This would then call into question JM's claims JB told her MM placed a bible on SC's chest.

My guess is one of the low ranking officers who observed the bible at soc weaved the bible into a narrative supporting the prosecution case.  It was then introduced into JM's testimony around the beginning of Sept.  Many blood stained exhibits were not tested until late Sept.  If the bible was tested later and showed the bloodstains originated from June it undermined JM's testimony and the prosecution case in this regard to some extent.

The Bible was dressing for the narrative Jeremy wanted to present.  The police initially took the same view of things as Jeremy's defense did.  They considered the Bible evidence of sheila going crazy and having some religious motive. They considered it significant that it was said that she found religion recently yadda yadda

Once police came to face Jeremy was the killer and it was just staging they didn't pay much attention to the Bible, they looked for prints but did not look at the larger picture.
 

The staging of the Bible was as big a gaffe as using the moderator then putting it away but the government experts only realized that on appeal.

We don't know if the defense realized it or not. If they did they wanted to draw as little attention to the Bible as possible other than to try weaving it into their narrative of religious motivation and ritual cleaning.  On appeal they made up that it represented a suicide note, they didn't think of that use at the time because they never bothered to look at the Bible themselves to see which pages had blood. They had the ability to inspect it if they wanted it was a court exhibit but they didn't do so.  How could one prove a particular page of the Bible is a suicide note or anything else for that matter?  It's specious so a useless argument on appeal and a hard one to make at trial let alone to successfully convince the jury of.

On appeal there is nothing that the Bible could be used for that has any hope of establishing innocence or that a different verdict would have been rendered. David's theory has no legs at all except in his mind- the same mind that claims his hypostasis theory has not been rebutted...

“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline adam

Unfortunately the words 'would give the crown more time to prepare' was in a telephone conversation. So i have no record of it. However AH did give me another reason not to go public in a followup email to that very telephone conversation.

Your in for an exhilarating Friday night now Adam. I have attached the email below for you.  8((()*/

Thank you David.

The email doesn't state not to put you're 'forensic evidence breakthrough' on forums. But he must have also said this to you on the phone.

Phone calls, emails, AH was getting very friendly with you. The 'forensic evidence breakthrough' must have been good.

Surprised 'Team Bamber' haven't put their weight behind the 'forensic evidence breakthrough' & given it a media promotional push . Every other claimed piece of evidence is given to the media. Such as photos of feet, audio logs & most famously getting on the front page of the Mirror regarding Nevill's call to the police.

Mind you they have only had it for 9 months. No point in rushing things & as AH said on the phone it 'would give the crown more time to prepare'. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 09:05:22 AM by adam »

Offline Caroline

The Bible was dressing for the narrative Jeremy wanted to present.  The police initially took the same view of things as Jeremy's defense did.  They considered the Bible evidence of sheila going crazy and having some religious motive. They considered it significant that it was said that she found religion recently yadda yadda

Once police came to face Jeremy was the killer and it was just staging they didn't pay much attention to the Bible, they looked for prints but did not look at the larger picture.
 

The staging of the Bible was as big a gaffe as using the moderator then putting it away but the government experts only realized that on appeal.

We don't know if the defense realized it or not. If they did they wanted to draw as little attention to the Bible as possible other than to try weaving it into their narrative of religious motivation and ritual cleaning.  On appeal they made up that it represented a suicide note, they didn't think of that use at the time because they never bothered to look at the Bible themselves to see which pages had blood. They had the ability to inspect it if they wanted it was a court exhibit but they didn't do so.  How could one prove a particular page of the Bible is a suicide note or anything else for that matter?  It's specious so a useless argument on appeal and a hard one to make at trial let alone to successfully convince the jury of.

On appeal there is nothing that the Bible could be used for that has any hope of establishing innocence or that a different verdict would have been rendered. David's theory has no legs at all except in his mind- the same mind that claims his hypostasis theory has not been rebutted...

There are few things I agree with David on, but I do believe the stain is a palm print from Sheila. However, it doesn't in any way prove Bamber is innocent and never could.

Offline John

Unfortunately the words 'would give the crown more time to prepare' was in a telephone conversation. So i have no record of it. However AH did give me another reason not to go public in a followup email to that very telephone conversation.

Your in for an exhilarating Friday night now Adam. I have attached the email below for you.  8((()*/

Why anyone would take Andrew Hunter seriously is beyond me but each to their own.

It is a pity you are wasting your time with this nonsense David, the existing evidence is very clear that Sheila could never have shot herself twice in the neck so a non starter for you and Andrew Hunter.  Anyone who claims otherwise simply don't understand the mechanics of gunshot wounds and are living in cloud cuckoo land.

We have seen many claims of a breakthrough over the last decades in this case but in the end they all fall at the final hurdle because they are all fiction basically. There is no evidence which can support Jeremy Bamber and there never will be, most people realise this in the end. The evidence against Bamber is in fact overwhelming despite what Hunter and people like him claim.  In the end though none of their claims ever materialise because when push comes to shove they are just hot air.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 10:47:28 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

JM states JB told her the so-called hit man Matthew MacDonald (spelling?) put the bible on SC's chest:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112

He would do as he himself placed it there after he shot her as part of his devious plan to simulate a suicide. 

It is incredibly difficult to fake a suicide scene involving two shots. Bamber hadn't a clue what Sheila would look like in such a situation so he gave the game away almost immediately. Had the pathologist been called to attend the scene before the police moved Sheila's body he would have recognised this for himself.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 10:58:56 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

There are few things I agree with David on, but I do believe the stain is a palm print from Sheila. However, it doesn't in any way prove Bamber is innocent and never could.

In his haste and naivety, Jeremy Bamber thought that by placing the rifle longways on top of Sheila's body along with the Bible that he would fool the police into thinking it was a suicide with religious overtones. Fortunately, some offficers were sufficiently experienced not to have been suckered by such a ploy.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 11:11:00 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline scipio_usmc

JM states JB told her the so-called hit man Matthew MacDonald (spelling?) put the bible on SC's chest:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=284.0;attach=1112

You got it right hes a Mac not a Mick.  I'm predominantly Italian but a little bit Mick- my father is a quarter Irish so I guess I'm 12.5%. Maybe that is why I love potatoes- but then again I hate cabbage- smelly vile weed!   
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli