Author Topic: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.  (Read 532 times)

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Online John

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Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« on: March 15, 2017, 03:35:37 PM »
Many claims have been made as to Sheila's time of death, some even claim she was shot by police.

It is an impossible task, not even her killer would know. Sheila could well have survived the second shot and although unconscious could have taken a while to succumb to her wounds.

19
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 05:17:15 PM by John »
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Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2017, 04:49:14 PM »
It is an impossible task, not even her killer would know. Sheila could well have survived the second shot and although unconscious could have taken a while to succumb to her wounds.

Yep.

http://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migration-books/forensics-excerpt

There's a plethora of info on the web from reliable sources which all basically say the same thing ie impossible to provide a narrow timeframe just a best guesstimate which is what Dr Craig did:

38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous *night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted.

* Definition of night = sunset to sunrise

I've uploaded a book authored by Prof Knight re temp/tod and stomach contents (pages 83 and 84).
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2017, 04:50:57 PM »
Blimey 24461.48 kB I hope I'm not overloading the system!?
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2017, 07:41:39 PM »
You seem to give him an easier time than the one from the NW!   

NW?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2017, 07:43:30 PM »
Can you challenge the one from the NW re her claims over TOD ie it wasn't a hospital ward where patients are constantly monitored?  For TOD to have any relevance in JB's case some medically qualified person would need to confirm SC died between the time JB was stood outside with EP and the time EP found SC presumed dead.  An impossible task.

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(96)02011-7/abstract

To be honest, it's pointless arguing with either of them.

Offline David1819

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 07:48:02 PM »
Yep.

http://www.writersdigest.com/qp7-migration-books/forensics-excerpt

There's a plethora of info on the web from reliable sources which all basically say the same thing ie impossible to provide a narrow timeframe just a best guesstimate which is what Dr Craig did:

38. At 8.10 a.m., Dr Craig attended the scene to formally certify the deaths. In cross-examination at the trial he said the deaths could have occurred at any time during the previous *night. The appearance of Sheila Caffell's body suggested to him that the wounds had been inflicted by her own hand. In answer to the judge the witness made it clear this was not an opinion the jury should rely upon as a true indication that the injuries had been self-inflicted.

* Definition of night = sunset to sunrise

I've uploaded a book authored by Prof Knight re temp/tod and stomach contents (pages 83 and 84).

Once again you are cherry picking Dr Craig's words in order to deny Jeremy has an alibi. Shame on you.

Lets take a close look.

"In each case I certified death. There was no requirement for any physical examination to do this. My look at the bodies was not intensive."
Dr. Ian Craig ws 12/11/86

I could ask you again. How Dr Craig only noticed one gunshot wound and failed to noticed the other less than 2 inches away in plain sight. But i wont. Because you know the answer to this. But you can't post a straight answer without admitting that Dr Craig was paying no attention to the obvious manifestations of Sheila's body. Rendering his opinion on the time of death untrustworthy. Not like his own admittance above is not enough.

To cherry pick Dr Craig's words in the manner that you are is reckless and thoroughly unscientific.

I'm watching you.

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2017, 02:04:19 PM »
Once again you are cherry picking Dr Craig's words in order to deny Jeremy has an alibi. Shame on you.

Lets take a close look.

"In each case I certified death. There was no requirement for any physical examination to do this. My look at the bodies was not intensive."
Dr. Ian Craig ws 12/11/86

I could ask you again. How Dr Craig only noticed one gunshot wound and failed to noticed the other less than 2 inches away in plain sight. But i wont. Because you know the answer to this. But you can't post a straight answer without admitting that Dr Craig was paying no attention to the obvious manifestations of Sheila's body. Rendering his opinion on the time of death untrustworthy. Not like his own admittance above is not enough.

To cherry pick Dr Craig's words in the manner that you are is reckless and thoroughly unscientific.

I'm watching you.

If JB had a reliable alibi he wouldn't have been convicted in the first place let alone remain incarcerated to this very day.  The fact that you believe you can see something that the medical professionals involved in the case overlooked isn't evidence of a reliable alibi.

I suggest you take a look at Chief Sup Harris' WS.  He states arrangements were made for Dr Craig to attend to certify deaths.  Anyone with a modicum of common sense would know that it was not for Dr Craig to interfere with the victims or soc before all necessary soc photos had been taken.  Chief Sup Harris also states he briefed Dr Craig before he entered WHF.  It appears most of those who first observed SC only noted 1 gsw.  Hardly suprising when you consider most in the UK don't have access to firearms and therefore rates of suicide by firearms are low and even lower for multiple gsw's.  The mind will make assumptions and often override what the eyes see.  I have pointed out to you previously SC's neck was bloody and her gsw's measured 3/16" and 1/4" in diameter so easily missed for someone not tasked with carrying out a detailed examination.  You on the other hand would have us believe that noticeable differences exist between SC and June in terms of lividity present over large areas of exposed body.  At the time of WHF Dr Craig had 30 years experience as a police surgeon.  I believe this was a combined role acting as a local GP.  How many deaths due you think Dr Craig had observed over 30 odd years involving non gsw's v gsw's?  More than enough deaths from all causes that he was able to draw any conclusions about lividity.  Even if some differences existed it means squat as there are so many factors that affect the onset of lividity.

So lets get this straight police surgeon Dr Craig with 30 years experience fails to notice at soc what you claim is evident in terms of a noticeable difference in lividity between soc photos of SC and June.  None of the raid team or first respondents noticed any difference including the police photographer.  Dr Vanezis who carried out the autopsies and had access to soc photos also fails to notice any difference along with Prof Knight who had access to all relevant material and soc photos.  Is this it?  Have I understood you correctly David?

Cherry picking would mean there are aspects of Dr Craig's testimony that I reject or ignore whilst playing up other aspects which isn't true.  I see him as a competent and reliable expert witness.   

The shame is with you and most other JB supporters: Mike, Lookout and CT all of whom are devoid of critical thinking skills.     
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 02:08:52 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2017, 02:23:43 PM »
Oh and before you remind me that I mooted the idea of June walking around the bedroom after sustaining the 2 gsw's to her head I would remind you that I actually sought opinion from a pathologist and dropped it when I realised I was wrong.  And if you knew who the pathologist was it would probably blow your socks off!

FOR YOU DAVID

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Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2017, 06:04:54 PM »
Just thought did Chief Sup Harris observe David's claims of lack of lividity in SC?  I can't see any mention of this in his WS.

Did DCI Jones observe such in his pocket notebook?  I can't see any mention of this.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=174.msg1783#msg1783
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92

Offline David1819

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2017, 10:15:51 PM »
Just thought did Chief Sup Harris observe David's claims of lack of lividity in SC?  I can't see any mention of this in his WS.

Did DCI Jones observe such in his pocket notebook?  I can't see any mention of this.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=174.msg1783#msg1783

They are not trained to do such. The lack of lividity in the crime scene photos shows they could have observed it if they looked or knew what to look for. But they did not.

Scipio and Caroline have argued that hypostasis does not always develop. However in this case it did. As its recorded in Vanezis autopsy carried out at 3pm the following afternoon. So far I have had no counter arguments to this.

My arguments for this have so far stood up to scrutiny. I cannot claim the proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false.I would welcome any evidence to prove this argument wrong. All you are doing is providing negative evidence from witnesses who were not even tasked or trained to do such observation. Hardly a strong argument. The absence of any mention of lividity by those at the scene on the 7th is for the exact same reason there is no mention of a silencer. - They cannot record something they never looked for nor contemplated looking for.




"The estimated time from death, known as post mortem interval
(PMI), is fundamental in many instances such as in criminal investigations,
because the finding may acquit or condemn a suspect,
as the data will be compared with the alibis provided by the people
under investigation. The estimated PMI in the first 6 h following
death has an error margin of at least 2 h, increasing to a margin of at
least 3 h in the next 14 h and to 4.5 h in the subsequent 10 h.1
The concentration of red cells in the vascular system result in a
reddish-purple color, which is called hypostasis 2-4 or livor mortis.
According to Dolinak et al. (2005), hypostasis begins to develop at
the moment of cardiac arrest, becoming perceptible after 3-4 h and
more obvious after 6-8 h, with full development in the skin
occurring after 10-12 h.4 Favero (1991), on the other hand, suggests
that the first signs of hypostasis occur within 10 min after death,
becoming obvious after 1-3 h and stabilizing after approximately
8-12 h.
"
Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine 38 (2016) 111-115

PML = Post Mortem Lividity


« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 11:22:23 PM by David1819 »

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2017, 01:04:24 AM »
They are not trained to do such. The lack of lividity in the crime scene photos shows they could have observed it if they looked or knew what to look for. But they did not.

Scipio and Caroline have argued that hypostasis does not always develop. However in this case it did. As its recorded in Vanezis autopsy carried out at 3pm the following afternoon. So far I have had no counter arguments to this.

My arguments for this have so far stood up to scrutiny.
I cannot claim the proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false.I would welcome any evidence to prove this argument wrong. All you are doing is providing negative evidence from witnesses who were not even tasked or trained to do such observation. Hardly a strong argument. The absence of any mention of lividity by those at the scene on the 7th is for the exact same reason there is no mention of a silencer. - They cannot record something they never looked for nor contemplated looking for.




"The estimated time from death, known as post mortem interval
(PMI), is fundamental in many instances such as in criminal investigations,
because the finding may acquit or condemn a suspect,
as the data will be compared with the alibis provided by the people
under investigation. The estimated PMI in the first 6 h following
death has an error margin of at least 2 h, increasing to a margin of at
least 3 h in the next 14 h and to 4.5 h in the subsequent 10 h.1
The concentration of red cells in the vascular system result in a
reddish-purple color, which is called hypostasis 2-4 or livor mortis.
According to Dolinak et al. (2005), hypostasis begins to develop at
the moment of cardiac arrest, becoming perceptible after 3-4 h and
more obvious after 6-8 h, with full development in the skin
occurring after 10-12 h.4 Favero (1991), on the other hand, suggests
that the first signs of hypostasis occur within 10 min after death,
becoming obvious after 1-3 h and stabilizing after approximately
8-12 h.
"
Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine 38 (2016) 111-115

PML = Post Mortem Lividity


Your arguments stand up in your own dream world and to a few NZ zealots on the IA board, Jackie Preece and Lookout!  Way to go!  @)(++(*

Offline Myster

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 07:02:48 AM »
David1819 has been asked numerous times to post photographs which show a lack of lividity on Sheila's body... and all we get are the well-worn overhead ones, but none from low down or underneath her body where blood pooling occurs.  Why?... simply because he doesn't have any.

Besides, Sheila might have been anaemic (not always doctor-diagnosed) and she had bled out a lot anyway, reducing the impact of any lividity which can take many hours after death to appear, and this is what was observed by Peter Vanezis by the time of her autopsy later that afternoon. I'd rather believe the views of a seasoned pro like Bernard Knight over those of an amateur armchair sleuth, anyday.
‘Somebody in this case is lying, and lying their heads off.’ Anthony Arlidge QC, closing speech at the Bamber trial, 22 October 1986

Offline Samson

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 10:12:47 AM »
David1819 has been asked numerous times to post photographs which show a lack of lividity on Sheila's body... and all we get are the well-worn overhead ones, but none from low down or underneath her body where blood pooling occurs.  Why?... simply because he doesn't have any.

Besides, Sheila might have been anaemic (not always doctor-diagnosed) and she had bled out a lot anyway, reducing the impact of any lividity which can take many hours after death to appear, and this is what was observed by Peter Vanezis by the time of her autopsy later that afternoon. I'd rather believe the views of a seasoned pro like Bernard Knight over those of an amateur armchair sleuth, anyday.
Myster:
Elastoplast.
It is a fact that lividity probably occurs, the fact it does not present with Sheila indeed can be swept under the carpet like all the other problems.
I am particularly interested in your pending post on Holly's 3 big reasons thread.

Waiting...
It's not beneath you I hope.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2017, 12:38:10 PM »
Myster:
Elastoplast.
It is a fact that lividity probably occurs, the fact it does not present with Sheila indeed can be swept under the carpet like all the other problems.
I am particularly interested in your pending post on Holly's 3 big reasons thread.

Waiting...
It's not beneath you I hope.

The photographs on the internet are NOT of good enough quality to distinguish what David is claiming and you CAN see dark staining patches on Sheila's face and legs.

Online Holly Goodhead

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Re: Sheila's time of death and why it is important.
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 01:12:11 PM »
They are not trained to do such. The lack of lividity in the crime scene photos shows they could have observed it if they looked or knew what to look for. But they did not.

Scipio and Caroline have argued that hypostasis does not always develop. However in this case it did. As its recorded in Vanezis autopsy carried out at 3pm the following afternoon. So far I have had no counter arguments to this.

My arguments for this have so far stood up to scrutiny. I cannot claim the proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false.I would welcome any evidence to prove this argument wrong. All you are doing is providing negative evidence from witnesses who were not even tasked or trained to do such observation. Hardly a strong argument. The absence of any mention of lividity by those at the scene on the 7th is for the exact same reason there is no mention of a silencer. - They cannot record something they never looked for nor contemplated looking for.




"The estimated time from death, known as post mortem interval
(PMI), is fundamental in many instances such as in criminal investigations,
because the finding may acquit or condemn a suspect,
as the data will be compared with the alibis provided by the people
under investigation. The estimated PMI in the first 6 h following
death has an error margin of at least 2 h, increasing to a margin of at
least 3 h in the next 14 h and to 4.5 h in the subsequent 10 h.1
The concentration of red cells in the vascular system result in a
reddish-purple color, which is called hypostasis 2-4 or livor mortis.
According to Dolinak et al. (2005), hypostasis begins to develop at
the moment of cardiac arrest, becoming perceptible after 3-4 h and
more obvious after 6-8 h, with full development in the skin
occurring after 10-12 h.4 Favero (1991), on the other hand, suggests
that the first signs of hypostasis occur within 10 min after death,
becoming obvious after 1-3 h and stabilizing after approximately
8-12 h.
"
Journal of Forensic and Legal Medicine 38 (2016) 111-115

PML = Post Mortem Lividity


Police officers are trained to be observant and note anything relevant at soc.  There's nothing whatsoever to suggest Chief Sup Harris and DCI Jones were anything other than competent, professional police officers of long experience both of whom had presided over numerous murder enquiries at the time of WHF.  Although not medically qualified there was nothing preventing them from noting any significant differences between SC and the other victims in terms of lividity etc and/or imparting their observations to others eg Dr Craig or the four officers who attended autopsy and briefed Dr Vanezis about soc.

In any event even if soc photos showing a lack of lividity on SC and/or noticeable difference between SC and June it means squat in terms of TOD as per Prof Knight above.  All sorts of things can affect the onset eg body temp at time of death.  June was obviously in bed when she sustained her first gsw with at least a duvet over her and possibly the eiderdown found on the floor.  Jean Boutell said June kept her electric blanket available her side of the bed during the summer although I don't know whether or not it was on.  June's nightdress was high necked and long sleeved whereas SC's was relatively low necked and sleeveless.  SC had evidently been up and about before sustaining her gsw's and it appears she had been lying on top of her bed as opposed to under the duvet.  The bedroom window was open and a breeze may have blown in SC's direction.
 
Justice for Sheila and Jeremy. Victims of poorly arranged baby scoop era adoptions. Australia has apologised. Time for the UK to do the same?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVbokTpYeg http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/92