Is the sound of firearm discharge altered when fired within a confined space?

[Holly Goodhead]

Blimey I could've sworn I started up a thread/posts that appear to have disappeared  &%+((£  Anyway not to worry at least it kept me amused for a while.

Having had a quick look at other mass shootings in residential properties: 65 Every St (Bains) and 112 Ocean Ave (DeFeos) it seems there might be some evidence that the sound of gunshot is reduced:

- On the assumption David Bain is innocent, as per his last trial, his father shot to death 4 victims whilst they were in their beds/rooms.  The bedrooms were spread over 2 floors.  2 victims sustained 1 gsw, 1 victim 2 gsw's and another victim 3 gsw's.  The youngest victim was 14 yoa. .22 used with silencer.

- In the DeFeo case, Ronald DeFeo Jnr., shot to death 6 victims whilst they were in their beds.  The bedrooms were spread over 3 floors.  The parents sustained 2 gsw's each and each sibling 1 gsw each.  The youngest victim was 9 yoa.  The neighbours said they didn't hear any noise other than dogs barking. .35 used no silencer. 

- In the case of Oscar Pistorius the evidence re the sound of gunshot sounds ambigious where you might think the sounds of gunshot ringing out would be clear cut:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10943659/Oscar-Pistorius-10-reasons-why-he-is-guilty-or-innocent.html

9mm pistol, no silencer.

I think where firearms are discharged in enclosed spaces it might alter (reduce) the sound based on the ambient temp being higher, bullet stopping shortly after discharge and the following:

es/Lectures/FUTA-ARC-507/Assignments/2007 Assignments/Term Papers/Behaviour of Sound in an Enclosed Space.pdf

[Caroline]

Are you putting forward an argument s to hy no shots were heard from outside the farmhouse?

In your above examples, the murders occurred when neighbours were likely to be asleep (early hours and late at night). No one was expecting to hear gunshots whereas in the Bamber case, the raid team and other officers were honed for such a scenario, so had gunshots been fired, they would have heard them.

[Holly Goodhead]

Are you putting forward an argument s to hy no shots were heard from outside the farmhouse?

In your above examples, the murders occurred when neighbours were likely to be asleep (early hours and late at night). No one was expecting to hear gunshots whereas in the Bamber case, the raid team and other officers were honed for such a scenario, so had gunshots been fired, they would have heard them.

Not putting forward any arguments at the moment just thinking out loud!  But was thinking more along the lines that if the sound of gunshot is altered (reduced) when discharged in a confined space it might explain why victims were not alerted and able to take some action to defend themselves.  What I mean by this is that in the Bain and DeFeo cases the perps were able to move from floor to floor and room to room discharging the firearm without seemingly alerting others.  You may recall from your psychology course covering sleep that there are deep sleep phases which are difficult to rouse from but it would seem strange if all occupants were in these deep sleep phases simultaneously?  In fact in the DeFeo case the pathologist said the mother and a daughter were awake albeit prone in bed.   

WHF firearm discharged 26 times/5 victims - no one in neighbouring farm cottages heard any gunshots.
ES firearm discharged 8 times/5 victims - afaik no one heard anything
Amytville firearm discharged 8 times/6 victims - no one heard gunshots only dogs barking
Pistorius firearm discharged 4? times/1 victim - ambigious as to whether others heard gunshot or door being broken down but neighbours heard arguing.

[Holly Goodhead]

Also I've always thought the twins were shot in quick succession simultaneously after NB and June were shot and killed but I know some struggle to understand how the twins could sleep through not only the noise from outside their bedroom but also the noise from within their bedroom.  There must have been a delay of a few seconds from one twin being shot to the other.  The soc's at ES and Amytville seem to show it would be possible.   

[Holly Goodhead]

David do you know anything about this case eg where were the victims were shot/found?

http://www.lincolntrailpublishing.com/woman-shoots-dead-her-own-children-mother-and-brother-and-the-family-dog-233.html

[Holly Goodhead]

There is always the possibility he had help from someone outside the family. But who is going to believe him if he keeps giving alternative versions of events.

Nevertheless this crime is an example of someone good with firearms unlike WHF. This is how you would expect WHF to look if Jeremy/Mcdonald had been responsible.

Blimey we actually agree on something!

Do you know anything about the family in Austria?  I'm just really wanting to know where they were shot how many gunshots etc. 

[Holly Goodhead]

Blimey we actually agree on something!

Do you know anything about the family in Austria?  I'm just really wanting to know where they were shot how many gunshots etc.

Actually I assume you meant JB OR MM? 

[Holly Goodhead]

Anyway we can see in the thread the soc at WHF looked very different compared with Every Street (Bains) and Ocean Ave (DeFeos). 

As it CURRENTLY stands the OFFICIAL perps based on most recent court rulings are as follows:

WHF - JB - 26 gunshots - 5 victims

Every Street - RB - 8 gunshots - 5 victims

Ocean Ave - RD Jnr - 8 gunshots - 6 victims

All were deemed competent with firearms.  JB was a marksman at Greshams.  I do not believe JB would shoot NB four times upstairs: 2 x face, 1 x shoulder and 1 x elbow/chest graze leaving NB still able to flee downstairs.    The facial shots were "within inches". 

[Holly Goodhead]

Two counter arguments are that JB needed to make the soc look amateurish and manic but at the same time made the mistake of over estimating the low powered rifle thus he required reloads which some argue was beyond SC.  These two arguments obviously conflict.  In any event we can see from Every St and Ocean Ave that JB could easily have killed the victims with 1 bullet and still have 6 spare if by chance a victim required a second and/or fire randomly to make the scene look amateurish and manic.

[Holly Goodhead]

The matriarchs were all prone in bed when shot initially:

WHF - June - 8 gsw's - 6 whilst in bed/getting out of.  2 whilst away from bed.

Every St - Magaret Bain - 1 gsw.

Ocean Ave - Louise DeFeo - 2gsw's - both whilst in bed.

[david1819]

Two counter arguments are that JB needed to make the soc look amateurish and manic but at the same time made the mistake of over estimating the low powered rifle thus he required reloads which some argue was beyond SC.  These two arguments obviously conflict.  In any event we can see from Every St and Ocean Ave that JB could easily have killed the victims with 1 bullet and still have 6 spare if by chance a victim required a second and/or fire randomly to make the scene look amateurish and manic.

The calibre gun in the Bain case is the same as in WHF.

How would Jeremy know that overkill is a consistent theme is psychotic familicide? Where would a 25 year old in 1985 get that information?

June and Nevill both initially survived the first volley of shots. So it not just appears amateurish and manic it actually IS amateurish and manic!

[Caroline]

There is always the possibility he had help from someone outside the family. But who is going to believe him if he keeps giving alternative versions of events.

Nevertheless this crime is an example of someone good with firearms unlike WHF. This is how you would expect WHF to look if Jeremy/Mcdonald had been responsible.

If Jeremy had wanted it to look like an execution, that;s how it may have looked but given that he wanted it to look like his 'crazy sister' was responsible - that's how he played it.

[Holly Goodhead]

The calibre gun in the Bain case is the same as in WHF.

How would Jeremy know that overkill is a consistent theme is psychotic familicide? Where would a 25 year old in 1985 get that information?

"Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun".

June and Nevill both initially survived the first volley of shots. So it not just appears amateurish and manic it actually IS amateurish and manic!

I agree but a number of conflicting arguments exist from official and unofficial sources.  From the CoA summing up the prosecution case at trial:

b) Save for the appellant nobody had seen her use a gun and she had no interest in them. Sheila Caffell also had very poor co-ordination and would not have been capable of loading and operating the rifle nor would she have had the required knowledge to do so;

Do you have any info on the case in Austria where a woman shot her family ie number of shots fired etc?

WHF: 26/5 = 5.20 shots per victim

ES: 8/5 = 1.60 shots per victim

OA: 8/6 = 1.33 shots per victim

[Holly Goodhead]

AE told police officers SC would not have been capable of loading the mag.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3092

Having loaded the mag myself I think someone would have to suffer severe learning disabilities to find it in any way difficult.  Far, far easier than erecting and collapsing a baby buggy and SC must have had to cope with a twin version.

[Nicholas]

AE told police officers SC would not have been capable of loading the mag.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1053.0;attach=3092

Having loaded the mag myself I think someone would have to suffer severe learning disabilities to find it in any way difficult.  Far, far easier than erecting and collapsing a baby buggy and SC must have had to cope with a twin version.

To what "mag" are you referring?

How could you have possibly loaded the " mag" involved in the original murders?