Author Topic: Is the sound of firearm discharge altered when fired within a confined space?  (Read 4621 times)

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Offline Caroline

The calibre gun in the Bain case is the same as in WHF.

How would Jeremy know that overkill is a consistent theme is psychotic familicide? Where would a 25 year old in 1985 get that information?

June and Nevill both initially survived the first volley of shots. So it not just appears amateurish and manic it actually IS amateurish and manic!

Was 1985 still the dark ages?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Was 1985 still the dark ages?

Sadly not to us but David hadn't even been conceived then. 

He's not a bad lad.  We hooked up for a beer about a year ago in a micro brewery in East London.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Was 1985 still the dark ages?

Sadly not to us but David hadn't even been conceived then. 

He's not a bad lad.  We hooked up for a beer about a year ago in a micro brewery in East London.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Sadly not to us but David hadn't even been conceived then. 

He's not a bad lad.  We hooked up for a beer about a year ago in a micro brewery in East London.

Rather you than me

Offline Holly Goodhead

Rather you than me

It was a bit disconcerting when he kept reaching for my hand supposedly to see if it resembled you know what on what 

8(0(*

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

It was a bit disconcerting when he kept reaching for my hand supposedly to see if it resembled you know what on what 

8(0(*

What?

Offline Holly Goodhead

What?

Clue 1: abbreviated name of second month of calendar year. 

Clue 2:  a book I should have held dear had I not been such a NN! 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Blimey I could've sworn I started up a thread/posts that appear to have disappeared  &%+((£  Anyway not to worry at least it kept me amused for a while.

Having had a quick look at other mass shootings in residential properties: 65 Every St (Bains) and 112 Ocean Ave (DeFeos) it seems there might be some evidence that the sound of gunshot is reduced:

- On the assumption David Bain is innocent, as per his last trial, his father shot to death 4 victims whilst they were in their beds/rooms.  The bedrooms were spread over 2 floors.  2 victims sustained 1 gsw, 1 victim 2 gsw's and another victim 3 gsw's.  The youngest victim was 14 yoa. .22 used with silencer.

- In the DeFeo case, Ronald DeFeo Jnr., shot to death 6 victims whilst they were in their beds.  The bedrooms were spread over 3 floors.  The parents sustained 2 gsw's each and each sibling 1 gsw each.  The youngest victim was 9 yoa.  The neighbours said they didn't hear any noise other than dogs barking. .35 used no silencer. 

- In the case of Oscar Pistorius the evidence re the sound of gunshot sounds ambigious where you might think the sounds of gunshot ringing out would be clear cut:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10943659/Oscar-Pistorius-10-reasons-why-he-is-guilty-or-innocent.html

9mm pistol, no silencer.

I think where firearms are discharged in enclosed spaces it might alter (reduce) the sound based on the ambient temp being higher, bullet stopping shortly after discharge and the following:

es/Lectures/FUTA-ARC-507/Assignments/2007 Assignments/Term Papers/Behaviour of Sound in an Enclosed Space.pdf

If you are asking if the sound of the shot within that confined space is less than it would be in a more open space the answer is no.  I have heard a round fired in normal room and if anything it seems louder.

What is does so is inhibits the loudness that can be heard from farther away.  If a house and position is 1000 yards apart and someone stands directly in the middle on the 500 yard line they are going to hear the shot fired outdoors much better than the shot fired in the house.  If oy uar ein another structure that is going to reduce the sound even more and make it all that much more difficult to recognize what the sound actually is. This is before even taking into account background noises.

With respect to sleep, some people wake up from loud noises like thunder others don't. Some wake up a little but fall back asleep without realizing what is going on others will fully wake up.  You can wake up and yet fail to figure out what woke you up if the sound doesn't persist. So people woken by gunshots only appreciate it if the shots continue after they wake up.

When I was younger a gunpowder plant located 4 miles from my house blew up early in the morning or more accurately 4 buildings blew up. They didn't blow up simultaneously it was a chain reaction thus many people woke up and managed to hear 3, 2 or 1 blow up.  It registered on the Richter scale and the houses shook so violently that some the chimneys broke or foundations were damaged and some windows blew out. Amazingly a large number of people never woke up at all. I'm a light sleeper and one of the few who woke up immediately and actually recall hearing the first blast even. I still can't believe how many people I know who didn't wake up at all and had no idea anything happened. The saying a bomb can't wake some is literally accurate.

You mentioned the Amityville Murder.  Evidence indicated that both parents woke up and began to rise when they were shot.  There is no way to know if they fully appreciated what was going on or not the shots were fired in rapid succession but there was enough time for them to at least begin to wake up and begin to react.  The problem though is that people react too slowly to take advantage. A 22 is much less powerful than a 35 caliber and that plus the location of their wounds were much more severe thus they couldn't make it out of bed. Jeremy's shots were less well placed and he used a less powerful gun so Nevill was still mobile. June of course was able to get on her feet but out of it and too severely injured to survive for long.

The last victim in the Amityville case did actually wake up and get out of bed. But she didn't recognize what the noise was. She looked down the stairs saw her brother and he told her to go back to bed which she did and then after a period of time he went and shot her in bed as well.

People only partly awake also tend to be lazy and not want to get out of bed to investigate things so that plays in as well. There are plenty of cases where people were shot in rooms next to them and yet int he morning the people say they heard nothing.  It sounds crazy but happens. It was thus just luck that the killer didn't go try to kill them too or rather the fact they didn't get up and thus were not a witness who needed to be eliminated actually saved their lives. 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline scipio_usmc

Also I've always thought the twins were shot in quick succession simultaneously after NB and June were shot and killed but I know some struggle to understand how the twins could sleep through not only the noise from outside their bedroom but also the noise from within their bedroom.  There must have been a delay of a few seconds from one twin being shot to the other.  The soc's at ES and Amytville seem to show it would be possible.   

A great deal depends on how soundly the victims are sleeping. It takes an average person more than just a second to get up and it is easy to fire a dozen rounds in rapid succession with modern weapons, the magazine size is the main limitation.  Firing 3 shots into 1 twin an 2 seconds and then turning on the other before he could wake up is not a difficult task. he seemed to have learned his lesson after the debacle with his parents he aimed for the heads placing multiple rounds in.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 01:30:14 AM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Polite reminder to all posters:

Please refrain from making any comments of a personal nature.  The forum is for debate and it is natural and to be expected that we all perceive things differently and hold different views. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Polite reminder to all posters:

Please endeavour to keep on topic.

Some posts in this thread relate exclusively to the DeFeo case.  I will move them to a separate thread in the near future.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Polite reminder to all posters:

Please endeavour to keep on topic.

Some posts in this thread relate exclusively to the DeFeo case.  I will move them to a separate thread in the near future.

I have moved the posts which relate specifically to the Defeo case.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=894.msg27013#msg27013
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

If you are asking if the sound of the shot within that confined space is less than it would be in a more open space the answer is no.  I have heard a round fired in normal room and if anything it seems louder.

What is does so is inhibits the loudness that can be heard from farther away.  If a house and position is 1000 yards apart and someone stands directly in the middle on the 500 yard line they are going to hear the shot fired outdoors much better than the shot fired in the house.  If oy uar ein another structure that is going to reduce the sound even more and make it all that much more difficult to recognize what the sound actually is. This is before even taking into account background noises.

With respect to sleep, some people wake up from loud noises like thunder others don't. Some wake up a little but fall back asleep without realizing what is going on others will fully wake up.  You can wake up and yet fail to figure out what woke you up if the sound doesn't persist. So people woken by gunshots only appreciate it if the shots continue after they wake up.

When I was younger a gunpowder plant located 4 miles from my house blew up early in the morning or more accurately 4 buildings blew up. They didn't blow up simultaneously it was a chain reaction thus many people woke up and managed to hear 3, 2 or 1 blow up.  It registered on the Richter scale and the houses shook so violently that some the chimneys broke or foundations were damaged and some windows blew out. Amazingly a large number of people never woke up at all. I'm a light sleeper and one of the few who woke up immediately and actually recall hearing the first blast even. I still can't believe how many people I know who didn't wake up at all and had no idea anything happened. The saying a bomb can't wake some is literally accurate.

You mentioned the Amityville Murder.  Evidence indicated that both parents woke up and began to rise when they were shot.  There is no way to know if they fully appreciated what was going on or not the shots were fired in rapid succession but there was enough time for them to at least begin to wake up and begin to react.  The problem though is that people react too slowly to take advantage. A 22 is much less powerful than a 35 caliber and that plus the location of their wounds were much more severe thus they couldn't make it out of bed. Jeremy's shots were less well placed and he used a less powerful gun so Nevill was still mobile. June of course was able to get on her feet but out of it and too severely injured to survive for long.

The last victim in the Amityville case did actually wake up and get out of bed. But she didn't recognize what the noise was. She looked down the stairs saw her brother and he told her to go back to bed which she did and then after a period of time he went and shot her in bed as well.

People only partly awake also tend to be lazy and not want to get out of bed to investigate things so that plays in as well. There are plenty of cases where people were shot in rooms next to them and yet int he morning the people say they heard nothing.  It sounds crazy but happens. It was thus just luck that the killer didn't go try to kill them too or rather the fact they didn't get up and thus were not a witness who needed to be eliminated actually saved their lives.

I think the only reliable way to accurately gauge the sound of gunshot is a like for like demo measured by decibels. 

In the WHF case jurors were taken to an open air gun range to hear the rifle fired with and without silencer.  How can this replicate WHF?

I recall covering sleep on my psychology course and we do undergo periods difficult to wake from.  I can't recall REM or RAM states but it's one of them.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

I have moved the posts which relate specifically to the Defeo case.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=894.msg27013#msg27013

Thank you. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

I think the only reliable way to accurately gauge the sound of gunshot is a like for like demo measured by decibels. 

In the WHF case jurors were taken to an open air gun range to hear the rifle fired with and without silencer.  How can this replicate WHF?

I recall covering sleep on my psychology course and we do undergo periods difficult to wake from.  I can't recall REM or RAM states but it's one of them.

The exercise was in order to let them experience what the moderator does.

Sleep occurs generally in 5 stages, REM- light- deep- light- REM  but it can vary. REM is when we dream out minds are active while are bodies are frozen. 
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli